acceptable wolf depredation

[horshur]

So what are your thoughts??? What is acceptable to you in percentage?? Is upwards of 40% acceptable???

[guest]

I believe some areas may require a cull while others not. Man, starting back years ago disturbed the life cycle of all wild game by our occupying more and more land. Few areas remain untouched by us in some way shape or form. Hunting, development, hiking, you name it. Where ever we go in general man has put a foot print or disturbance if you like into natures path. That said all game needs to be managed sensitively with all wild life considered. Wolves included. Example, hikers using Mountain ranges for outdoor activity and enjoyment can displace Mountain Goats just as easily as a hunter or 2 lucky enough to get a long waited for LEH or even more so. This in turn can push the goats into a more favorable ambush area for wolves to take them out. We all need to managed some what thats why we all need to keep a close watch on government and it's wild life managers, Co- hunters, and even environmentalists hiking through game sensitive areas. A General cull in Wolf population cannot be across the board or general at all. It's a science, that needs to be well balanced. When and where legal, I do not pass up the chance to harvest a wolf, after all I am depending on others to manage the resource. C/T

[boonerbuck]

I'll be honest to say I don't know enough about the whole province's game and predator populations to give a %.

Something tells me no one does.

[hunter1947]

I'm not going to give any percentages ,all I can say is man has screwed up everything and he as a man can only try and to control everything now ,predator ,pray ,fishing ,management ,hiking motor vehicles ,pollution diseases ,it goes on and on. I really can't give a percentage.

[boxhitch]

Curly top, I agree.
There are areas that wolves have a huge affect on ungulates, and the value of those would have to be weighed out. Some areas see numbers of elk/moose killed, yet hold a huntable population. Start talking about the highly-valued Sheep, suddenly wolves have no acceptable level.

[houndogger]

98% would be fair in my oppion8)

[Panda]

http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/news/story.html?id=3e84fa73-9ea2-4b3f-a646-1adba0a76d4e

this sounds pretty rough

[boxhitch]

98% would be fair in my oppion8)I think the topic is depredation by wolves on prey species. 98% ??!!

[horshur]

I think the topic is depredation by wolves on prey species. 98% ??!!

No Dave has the right idea.....:lol:

If wolves were taking 40% of Mule deer in region 3 would you guy's be happy with that???

Boxhitch.....the thing with sheep is kinda funny. Is it not a trophy species??

[boxhitch]

Boxhitch.....the thing with sheep is kinda funny. Is it not a trophy species??:confused:Yes, so depredation by wolves has no acceptable level.
Somethings lost in the translation here.

[horshur]

:confused:Yes, so depredation by wolves has no acceptable level.
Somethings lost in the translation here.

What makes sheep special??

[Stone Sheep Steve]

What makes sheep special??

Relatively low reproductive rates. Never twin. Don't repopulate former ranges once the "knowledge" is gone....etc ...etc..

I can't remember my Ecology well enough any more to recite a bunch of stuff on "K" type vs "R" type species.

Someone help me out here. I'm drowning.:oops:

SSS

[tufferthandug]

I'm not sure if I understand the question. Are you asking about livestock deaths due to wolf attack?

[guest]

Well lets see what happens with this one, what makes sheep so special?
First, the places they live, the hard work to be successful, the judging one MUST do before ya sqeeze the trigger, unless you want to be made a fool of. They taste is fantastic! The memories of critters passed by to locate the biggin, the Mount to grace your wall for the rest of your time reminding you of all the above and MORE !!
Personally, Goats should receive a huge praise too, they live in even tougher terrain, are very tough to judge while looking for a good Bill, ( don't shoot nannies) yet are not deemed by most to be such a reward as a Ram.
For Both the above critters, a guys life can be just one steep away from.....over.

[wsm]

:roll:
98% would be fair in my oppion8):roll:

[houndogger]

Ya probably. 96.5%:biggrin:

[dana]

Curley Top,
I could say the exact same thing regarding Trophy Muleys. For some reason sheep are garnished as a Trophy Species, something that contradicts the consensus that the majority of hunters in this province hunt only for the meat. If wolves or lions kill some muton then there is a big uproar but those same people say it's just nature at work when the wolves are just killing mule deer.
The question here seems pretty easy to understand. What percentage of prey (be it sheep, goats, moose or mule deer) are we willing to call acceptable when it comes to wolf predation?

[Dannybuoy]

The question here seems pretty easy to understand. What percentage of prey (be it sheep, goats, moose or mule deer) are we willing to call acceptable when it comes to wolf predation?
Ahhhh !!:cool: .... well I hope its a low % I dont know enuff to make a intelligent guess

[boxhitch]

The question here seems pretty easy to understand. What percentage of prey (be it sheep, goats, moose or mule deer) are we willing to call acceptable when it comes to wolf predation?impossible to answer, as everyone has a different idea of a species value, and what the loss would equate to.
To me, introduced species are pests no matter how big, so depredation can carry on.
But don't mess with my Wolverines.

[GoatGuy]

something that contradicts the consensus that the majority of hunters in this province hunt only for the meat.

Sheep have to be managed on curl restrictions due to conservation.

Even as late as the 80s discussions with retired moe biologists have stated sheep were a meat species - hunters shot 'a' sheep, particularly those who lived in region. The majority of hunters weren't looking for big rams yet due to conservation concerns and 'some' social pressures the drive for trophy sheep continued. Most people have always shot 'the bare minimum' when it comes and came to horn restrictions - even today.

The driving force that has got us to where we are is predominantly the grand slam and non-resident hunting ($) as well as trophy hunters driving regulations. Some of the reading from the turn of the century from european settlers even talked about 'horns' but also talked about how good sheep tasted.

Whether some areas are managed on full curl today because of conservation is a whole nother debate, or maybe isn't as the harvest is nil but that's another discussion.

Regs are what shape the resulting hunters.

[Walksalot]

One must know the predator/prey ratio and this includes all predator species before one could give up a percentage to predation. I don't think one can single out wolves when trying to come up with a figure. One must factor all predators in order to make a fair observation.
As far as Man screwing things up I must disagree. Granted Man has made some unwise decisions historically but if anything Man has taken the peaks and valleys out of many predator/prey ratios. A classic example is the snowshoe hare/lynx ratio. For the most part Man leaves this interaction alone and the result is peaks and crashes in both populations.
Having said that, Man's interaction has been self serving as we manage many populations so Man can do the lion's share of the predation. One might look at this as a classic example of the top predator's unwillingness to share.

[boxhitch]

Having said that, Man's interaction has been self serving as we manage many populations so Man can do the lion's share of the predation. One might look at this as a classic example of the top predator's unwillingness to share.Except for the fact, those same top predators are the driving force behind all conservation efforts such as disease control, habitat enhancement, feeding programs, Foreign species reductions, demographic balances, sex ratios, et al.
The Top Predator is always meddling, usually with good intent.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

[quote=dana;255470] For some reason sheep are garnished as a Trophy Species, something that contradicts the consensus that the majority of hunters in this province hunt only for the meat. If wolves or lions kill some muton then there is a big uproar but those same people say it's just nature at work when the wolves are just killing mule deer. quote]


Well, I was hoping for a "real" biologist to comment on this but it looks like I'll have to give my best impression of the "armchair" variety:roll:.

Sheep may seem like they're managed as a "Trophy" species but in reality trophy rams are a "by-product" of regulations targeting conservation.
History has taught us that when horn curl regulations are relaxed sheep nuimbers go steadily down. Without the presence of older rams during the rutt, younger rams tend to chase the crap out of the ewes. This starts before the rutt and proceeds past the rut. End result is the ewes use up too much energy and lamb survival subsequently drops. Older rams keep "order" during and around the rutt. Also, knowledge of seasonal migration is passed down from ram to ram and once a band is eliminated summer ranges might not be frequented for many, many years, if at all. End result is loss of "usable" habitat, even though the habitat is still there.

Horshur asked why sheep are so special??
Don't take the word of a sheep hunter. Wild sheep are special enough to be "blue-listed" in the province.
While wild sheep may appear similar to mulies in their needs, wild sheep are up against a multitude of factors that mule deer do not face.

Habitat-
Sheep habitat is much more limited than mule deer. Ask yourself where are sheep found? They have evolved as an open-terrain species.

Habitat fragmentation-
Much of their former range in the southern interior in now occupied by vineyards and subdivisions. Coupled with fire suppression sheep can't move freely where they used to. They generally don't like to move through large sections on timber. Once eliminated from one area it is much harder to repopulate. Shorts Ck in one example.

Fire suppression-
Results in forrest encroachment and decreased habitat. Undergrowth provides cover for predators. More prevalent in the Okanagan and along the Frazer Canyon as well as the E Koots. Shorts Ck is another prime example of where ingrowth allowed cats to devastate the remaining sheep herd.

Competition-
Elk numbers are doing very well up north and in the E Koots. Elk are agressive competitors and will push sheep off of critical habitat. Lots of "unprescribed" burns going on up north which are good for sheep but, unfortunately, even better for elk. Also, competition with cattle is very much a concern along many parts of the Frazer.

Low reproductive rate-
Deer, elk and moose frequently twin. Sheep almost never twin. This makes them much slower to recover from heavy predatation or a die-off.


Prey switching-
With other species doing well such as moose and elk, predator numbers inevitably rise and prey-swtching at certain times of year can be devastating on sheep.

Parasites and Disease-
Wild sheep are much more succeptable than other ungulates to a variety of diseases and internal parasites which can worsen on crowded winter ranges. Cyclical die-offs are always an issue.

Contact with Domestic sheep-
A well documented problem.


Throw wolf predation on top of all these other factors that wild sheep face and it is a big deal.



So sheep are special:p. But don't take my word for it:wink:.

SSS

[boxhitch]

Good post SSS and GG. But I bet it falls on deaf ears, which is OK, as we don't need to convert more hunters to sheep hunters.