A break from the Elk Threads- Technology Good or Bad

[budismyhorse]

New Technology Good or Bad?

What do you think of this situation:

This past fall, one of our hunting party shot a bull Elk approximately 1500ft up a mountain, it was 5pm and now we had a decision to make. Do we pack it all out in one shot or take 2 decent packs since the horses can't go up that mountain in particular.

Keep in mind:
· we are a 2.5 hr horse pack to camp, so from the kill you are looking at 4-5 hours (depending on how things go:!:) back to camp.
· The day before, we were told of a large boar Grizz watching the same herd we took the bull from, as one point he was 50 yrds from a cow.

We decided to pack in all in one shot. My old man's knees are pretty much done so he took both back straps and that was it. The rest was up to my buddy and myself. All said and done both our packs were well over 100 lbs. My buddies' was worse because he wanted the entire skull for a Euro mount. I would guess his (hind quarter, hocked, skinned, ham-boned 85lbs, gear and head and horses - 45 lbs). It was all he could do to even stand up. (But the thing is, once you are up, it doesn't feel too bad. The straps are padded nicely, the hip belt distributes wieght properly, the poles help with balance.....)

Remember, at the time this all made sense but now seems like a stupid thing to do. We didn't debone the hinds because we like the way they hang bone-in.....So with our freighter frames and collapsable poles we slowly made our way down the mountain without incident.

The moral is, my dad was pretty pissed with us because of the risk involved. One wrong step and your future hunts (and maybe even worse)could be in serious trouble. Blown knees tend to ruin the trips, careers, lifestyles and hunting seasons as well.

He kept saying that back in the "trapper nelson" days you couldn't get loads like that because the packs just weren't big enough or designed to do it easily. Those old shoulder straps would have cut your arms off.
The collapsible poles prevented us from swaying either way and stopped us from falling on more than one occation.

To my buddy and I it didn't seem like that much of a big deal, but that may be because we have never had a pack like that go sideways on us. Dad figures these better packs and other stuff are allowing us to push our luck, and get away with it and is afraid we are going to get screwed one of these days.

what do you think? Lets hear some "you should have done this.... or thats..."

or show some hard packin pics. Fisher_Dude's from a few days ago is what got me thinking about this.

http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/A_Grunt.jpg

[Stone Sheep Steve]

The country you were in probably wasn't infested with grizzlies back when your Dad first hunted the area. Personally, I would rather take my chances with a stupid heavy pack and get it out in one load than to risk having to come back the next day to grizz bait.

My Dad hunted the E. Koots back in the late 50's-early 60's and he said it was rare sight to see a grizz. IIRC I believe he said there was an open season on them back then.

As long as you're in great shape and train hard it should not pose a risk as long as you go slow and steady.

SSS

[Kody94]

bud's owner,

There is something to be said for lighter packs and second trips! I am learning as my knees and back get creakier. But I did some pretty stupid stuff in my 20's/early 30's and I think I got away with it (these things do sneak up on you over time). Some might call BS on this, but my buddy and I packed a bull out 31 km back in 96. No horses, but about 20 kms of it was on a road so we used a cart for that part. Took 5 days...but never lost an ounce of meat. And we hunted for another on the way out! Young and not too bright. :roll:

I got followed off a mountian by a griz in the dark once too. I had an entire muley buck (just a little forked horn) in my pack. Was a little tense, and hard on the knees coming downhill with that load, but I wasn't going back for a second trip...so I stuffed 'er all in the pack.

My first elk came out with a Trapper Nelson....and your Dad is right, IMHO. A hind on that bull weighed 90 lbs and that is the most uncomfortable load I ever recall carrying. I sure wouldn't want to do that often if thats all I had.

Cheers,
4Ster

[Fisher-Dude]

When I shot my first elk, I packed a shot front quarter cut down to the third rib, hide on, and the 6 point antlers out all in on shot. 2/3 of that 1.5 mile pack was uphill. It was on that old hand-made cedar packboard in the other pic. Luckily, a couple of fellows helped us out and it was one pack each.

I think the technology does help, especially with the ability to stabilize the load to keep your balance. I recall rolling end over end down a steep mountain with a quarter of elk on my back, right into the gut pile that had slid down the hill earlier (we tied that elk's antlers to a tree to keep him from sliding down too). I was lucky I didn't kill myself.

Today I have a Freighter, and purchased walking sticks last year. Problem is, my knee cartilage is pretty thin from years of hockey and maybe a bit of silliness with overloaded packs. I've always used the "grizz in the area, get out fast" rule when removing game.

Everyone should be aware of their own limits, and try to be in the best shape possible for a pack out. SSS helped me get a buck out of a shithole last year that I likely would have done on my own a few years back, but "mature" thoughts of injuring myself seriously made me dial for help - cell phones are great technology for pack outs! :grin:

[budismyhorse]

SO regardless of technology, we are all pretty stupid from time to time!

great stories though guys, maybe that is all I really wanted to hear.

I do recall a few of the nasty stories over the years. One where a guy had an entire Muley in his pack (solo-km back) and fell, broke his ribs and barely made it out with his life. Went back for the pack and it was pretty much tore apart and worthless. So maybe a hiking pole would have saved that guy on that pack? it was years ago and I know he didn't own them.

[J_T]

Well, there is another factor too. The weather. If it is hot you need to determine the fastest way to get the meat into a cool location.

I'm an idiot. Last season (it was hot), I put the hind half of an elk on my back for the pack out. 160 pounds. My older knee (the right one) just felt squished under the load. I may be getting older and more passive in many ways, but my stubborn side doesn't seem to be changing.

Now I'm not completely stupid. I had my nephew with me. So I shouldered the pack for the camera (carried the load for a bit) and my brother (not much younger) and his two boys packed the whole animal out. Hermit took his turn too...

Probably about 2 kilometers to the vehicle.

Following on the "no lessons learned from that event" my brother shot a nice deer down down down, way down. And we hauled it up. I took one on the snow, uphill from the vehicle and just ladidaud it single-handed down to the truck.

Now did I say these were bow harvests? Yup, with a trad bow, you don't have to go looking for a walking stick.

[bighornbob]

I think the technology is defiantely a big help. When I was working in forestry I had a nasty fall that came within inches of having a 2 inch branch impale me through the mid section. What was I carrying, my cruisers vest and my lunch.

What i am trying to get at is falls and accidents in the bush can happen any time regardless of what you are wearing or carrying. Sure technology may make us carry more weight, but if s**t does happen help may only be a phone call away or the press of a button (Cell phones , sat phones, emergency beacons etc) and that is thanks to technology. I am sure there were more then a few oldtimers that died carrying an old trapper nelson with half the weight that we carry today that died becuase they could not call for help.

BHB

[Ron.C]

My partner and I packed an elk out a couple years ago in one shot for no other reason but we were worried about Mr. Griz. We gutted and quartered in the dark, and got out of there as soon as we could. This was during the archery season, so it was pretty warm too, but the thought of returning to a in the dark to retreive a second load, seemed alot more senseless than trying to get it out in one load. Luckily for us, we didn't need to go too far.

I've never considered hiking poles though to stabilize yourself while walking with a loaded pack. Good idea.

[Will]

I've never considered hiking poles though to stabilize yourself while walking with a loaded pack. Good idea.
That's why they were utilized in the first place :wink:.........walking around the neighborhood in running shoes and sweatpants was a secondary thought :lol:

Some good tales......but you guys are tougher then me.....I'd deboone everything...probably trim the fat off too. Leave some and go back....much better then tearing a knee up, ankle or worse.........pick up a loaded 100 lb plus pack and POP ! out comes a third nut:redface:

I do know my BulPac carries far more then I ever will.....

[Fisher-Dude]

.........pick up a loaded 100 lb plus pack and POP ! out comes a third nut:redface:

Yer givin' me wayyyyyy too many signature lines Will! :lol:

[Wolfman]

bud's owner,

There is something to be said for lighter packs and second trips! I am learning as my knees and back get creakier. But I did some pretty stupid stuff in my 20's/early 30's and I think I got away with it (these things do sneak up on you over time). Some might call BS on this, but my buddy and I packed a bull out 31 km back in 96. No horses, but about 20 kms of it was on a road so we used a cart for that part. Took 5 days...but never lost an ounce of meat. And we hunted for another on the way out! Young and not too bright. :roll:

I got followed off a mountian by a griz in the dark once too. I had an entire muley buck (just a little forked horn) in my pack. Was a little tense, and hard on the knees coming downhill with that load, but I wasn't going back for a second trip...so I stuffed 'er all in the pack.

My first elk came out with a Trapper Nelson....and your Dad is right, IMHO. A hind on that bull weighed 90 lbs and that is the most uncomfortable load I ever recall carrying. I sure wouldn't want to do that often if thats all I had.

Cheers,
4Ster

Tales like this make me think that bringing a 12 gauge or some other Griz-specific kind of gun for protection would be a good idea.

...extra weight though, on top of all that ;-(


Wolfman

[hunter1947]

I thought about this and have changed my decision .I would of climbed a tree about 14 feet up and hung the hole elk in 4 quarters from a good solid tree that had some limes on it. Then come back in the morning and taken half of it out and go back and get the other half during daylight hr. Its to easy to sprain an ankle or even pull your back out with that much weight on you. At night meat on your back and grizzlies around during night time is not a good thing. I hung elk in trees many times and no problem's with bears it works well.

[Jelvis]

How long would it take to de-bone a big bull elk properly, so theres no wasting meat and then packing it out? How close to the road were you if you don't mind me asking? Or If walking/ hiking in and hunting. How far back would you recommend is a maximum distance to shoot a bull if on a day hunt? I get mule deer that takes me and a buddy a whole day to Get in, find one, shoot one, gut, skin, cut up and off, then pack out and that's a one hundred fifty pound buck deer. Well what do you say? How far back would you hunt walking for a big bull elk off road access for a day hunt?

[J_T]

Will, while I agree with the theory of deboning and additional trips, when the archery season is on, the critical factor is getting that meat into a cooler. I barely take time to clean em... LOL Just get em up and get em out.

[hunter1947]

How long would it take to de-bone a big bull elk properly, so theres no wasting meat and then packing it out? How close to the road were you if you don't mind me asking? Or If walking/ hiking in and hunting. How far back would you recommend is a maximum distance to shoot a bull if on a day hunt? I get mule deer that takes me and a buddy a whole day to Get in, find one, shoot one, gut, skin, cut up and off, then pack out and that's a one hundred fifty pound buck deer. Well what do you say? How far back would you hunt walking for a big bull elk off road access for a day hunt?
I'm guessing he hiked in about 2 klm from the closes rd Jel.

[alremkin]

Hm, an interesting thread. Anyone who hunts hard long enough WILL run into this problem. I wrote an article here, "Elk Valley Elk", if you want to read it just enter that into the search engine. I'ts a short magazine sized article.

Bighornbob brought up a good topic about falling while packing. In the case of this article, as is often the norm in hunting, an animal is taken near the end of what has already been a fairly physical day's work. Downhill is harder on the knees and if you fall you fall much farther than when going uphill. Uphill is is much harder on the cardio-vascular system, heart & lungs. In any case packing after hunting all day, you are already tired when you start and now you also have a heavy pack on your back which GREATLY increases the chance on injury should you trip and fall impaling yourself on a limb on a tree or deadfall. I believe the bulk of hunters have normal athletic talent or better which has prevented more impalements, but when I packed out my elk coming down a steep mountainside danger of impalement was more in my consciousness than the grizzlies that inhabited that area of the EK. If we don't survive our endeavors because of injuries we need to have better foresight.

Hunter 47 brings up a good point about quartering and hanging the meat a minimum 14' from the ground in a tree with limbs to keep the early morning sun off it until we can return to pack it out. I have a pulley that weighs< 1 kg that will lift 1500 lbs and 35' of climbing rope, so it's easy to grip, but I don't always carry it with me when hunting. This makes me think I should start carring it again.

Now for what I would have done in that situation. First partially debone the meat by cutting the hind quarter from the hip and backbone removing the tenderloin leaving the upper leg bone in. Same thing with the shoulder peel it off the body leaving the upper arm bone in. Cut all the meat from the neck, brisket, hip and any other edible meat. Throw it into a game bag: Hamburger. Cut the neck vertabrae where it joins the body and cut off the front part of the ribs with a whyoming saw, and cut off the backbone where it joins the ribs leaving the nice center cut with backbone and part of the ribs. We would have taken the two hind quarters minus the hip bone and skin in a game bag. I'm guessing maybe 75 lbs a more reasonable load to be carrying. Then hang the center section two fronts and hamburger bag as per hunter47's intructions so they will be shaded from the sun until we return the next day.

Now it's easy to think this up here in town when rested and well fed, but I can also understand wanting to get it all out in one shot. I think this is the best compromise.8-)

[boxhitch]

So why is everyone so fired up and in a hurry to get back to a sleeping bag ? Doesn't anyone Siwash any more ? Especially early in the season, dark at 10, light at 4. Why not light up a slash pile....ok...a 'survival' fire.....rest the bones, and hike out in the dawn light ? As long as there isn't someone in panic mode because you haven't come home, why rush things and risk troubles in the dark ?
It sounds like modern hunters enjoy The Comforts to a fault sometimes.

[boxhitch]

Also, in the old day, before telescopic suprlite shock-absorbing 'Trekking' poles, a simple piece of wood, a Staff, was used as an aid. No rocket science there.

[alremkin]

Hm, that's one I didn't even think of that of course it's an option. For elk in the EK in September/October the days wouldn't be that long but say about 12 hours of sunlight and another hour or two of twilight depending on whther it's cloudy or clear. Then the temperature I usually carry a jacket and a small piece of insolite to stay warm while sitting and glassing as long as it's not wet out there's usually lots of firewood around so one could gather enough to keep a small fire going for warmth during the night.

The only real problem I see is what to do if mr.griz shows up ie would it be legal to shoot him in such a situation or is the CO/Game Department going to tell us we shouldn't have stayed there? Does anyone have experience with this?

[boxhitch]

-You cannot kill a bear just to save your meat. I mean your game meat.
-No one is going to tell you that you shouldn't have been there. How is one campsite different than another ?
-Generally, bears are weary of fires, so incidents may be less likely.

[mwj]

here's what i have done. not saying its for everyone but it works.
i have hunted elk, sheep caribou and moose solo, not what everyone would do but thats just me. when i'm packboarding my "pack" consistes of my "high tech" pack frame and a soft pack. this will become revellant later.
if i'm so lucky to kill here's what i do. i debone the animal with the exemption of the thigh bone and the blade. at this point i getthe meat away from the gut pile how far depends on scent flow if you know what i mean.
when it's tme to pack my game out i load my packboard and then my soft pack, big loads, so i take my packboard say 500 yds, then i'm tired so i drop it. i walk back(up hill) to my soft pack i pick it up and go say 750 yds and drop it. go back uphill 250 yds and grab my original pack. sounds odd but works for me. never had a BEAR GET THE BEST OF ME.(knock on wood)
ps have never left anything in the bush!
mark:wink:

[hunter1947]

I'm assuming that when BIMH was back in after this elk he had a back pack ,if so then he would have rope in his back pack ???. BIMH said he shot this animal at 5pm ,What time of the year was it ??? ,if it was early in sept you would have about one more hr of daylight then late Oct ,If shot in early sept I would pack out hafe the elk to camp that evening ,left the other hafe in the bush till the next morning. If it were in late Oct then you would have 3hr of daylight left. I know that it would take me 2hr to clean quarter and skin it in order to get it ready for to pack out. That leaves you with 1hr of daylight if that. Like I said in my other post ,take 2 of the quarters about 200 yards from the kill sight find a solid tree with some branches on it climb up about 14feet put the rope over one of the limbs close to the tree then come down and help your partner pull it up to that height then clime back up the tree and tie it there. Then do the same with the other quarter. Go back get the other 2 quarters then pack them out past the other 2 quarters about 100 yards this being the hind quarters ,then find a solid tree with some good limbs on it ,cut them off about 6 feet hi ,10 inches long then slid your hind quarter shank over the 10 limb ,do this on ether side of the tree. I now it is not as hi as the first step of hanging ,but it will be well into the dark buy this time. At least it gets them off the ground. Then continue back to camp ,come back first thing in the morning and grab the 2 farthest away take them back to camp ,then go back and get the other 2 quarters. If taking your back pack on your hunt ,you should always carry about 40 feet of good quality 3/8 rope in case you need it.

[budismyhorse]

Wow, these are all great points guys are making.

Everything from better ways to pack it all down in one shot, to 2 day packs. I really like the idea H47 brought up about hanging and coming back.

Jelvis - we were about 2hrs down the mountain to the horses, and 10 km from camp.

From all this, I think we should have taken a decent load, skinned, hocked hind quarter each, hang the rest a ways from the gut pile, bivy'd at the horses, got the second load the next day, and then rode to camp. I also would have left the horns....just to make sure we went back. Not saying we wouldn't, but sometimes you need that extra push especially when we were all in rough shape the next day or it is pissing rain. I liked Boxhitches line of thinking, rough it boys! you have the rest of the year to stay comfortable....I agree. But seperating an old italian from his wine stash isn't that easy.....

I should throw more rope in my pack from now on.

[budismyhorse]

here's what i have done. not saying its for everyone but it works.
i have hunted elk, sheep caribou and moose solo, not what everyone would do but thats just me. when i'm packboarding my "pack" consistes of my "high tech" pack frame and a soft pack. this will become revellant later.
if i'm so lucky to kill here's what i do. i debone the animal with the exemption of the thigh bone and the blade. at this point i getthe meat away from the gut pile how far depends on scent flow if you know what i mean.
when it's tme to pack my game out i load my packboard and then my soft pack, big loads, so i take my packboard say 500 yds, then i'm tired so i drop it. i walk back(up hill) to my soft pack i pick it up and go say 750 yds and drop it. go back uphill 250 yds and grab my original pack. sounds odd but works for me. never had a BEAR GET THE BEST OF ME.(knock on wood)
ps have never left anything in the bush!
mark:wink:

we talked about the "leap frog" idea, and almost did that. I think that is a great option. Thanks!

[Ramshot]

So why is everyone so fired up and in a hurry to get back to a sleeping bag ? Doesn't anyone Siwash any more ? Especially early in the season, dark at 10, light at 4. Why not light up a slash pile....ok...a 'survival' fire.....rest the bones, and hike out in the dawn light ? As long as there isn't someone in panic mode because you haven't come home, why rush things and risk troubles in the dark ?
It sounds like modern hunters enjoy The Comforts to a fault sometimes.

Was goat hunting in the Golden area a few years back and made a run on a Billy late in the afternoon! Just figured we would go get this fella de-bone cape him and hike out in the dark:roll:. It was hell getting off the shale slope to the valley bottom so we figured let's just stay. No sleeping bags or tent, lots of fresh grizzly sign and fresh goat meat in my pack:biggrin:. We found were this avalanche slide pushed a whole bunch of pines and trees into a pile in the meadow we camped in. I lit that pile and I swear you could see it from a sattelite8). Was Mid October and that night our water bottles froze and there was heavy frost on our rifle stocks. But with a good fire and bed of pine boughs it wasn't all that bad! RAMSHOT.