West Kootenay LEH Bull Elk - Poll

[BCrams]

After the previously posted poll, I would like to propose another regarding specifically the West Kootenay LEH bull elk draw.

A little info:

In the past year, the LEH West Kootenay Bull elk draw came up for a review to remove the LEH hunt to a GOS (with restrictions). With 'no conservation concern' for Rocky Mountain Elk, I believe this is a great opportunity to provide additional elk hunting opportunities, in particular for the local hunters of the Kootenays and to an extent, out of region hunters.

For those who do not know, the LEH bull elk draw is a very high odds hunt, meaning you most likely will NOT draw a tag in your lifetime.

Keep in mind, with the removal of the LEH, it would go to a GOS with restrictions with seasons still yet to be determined and 'NOT' any bull.

[Fisher-Dude]

Count on NOT getting these draws in your lifetime at these odds.


KOOTENAY REGION 4 (

See LEH Maps 4A, 4C, 4D, 4I & 4P for

zone boundaries)
Tentative 2006
Number of First
Hunt Authorizations Choice
Code Area M.U. Zone Season Date Class of Animal Available Odds
2075 Kootenay 4-08 A


Sept. 10-Oct. 31 +At least three points 5 103.4:1

2076 Kootenay 4-08 B


Sept. 10-Oct. 31 +At least three points 10 86.8:1

2077 Kootenay 4-09


Sept. 10-Oct. 31 +At least three points 7 29.:1

2078 Kootenay 4-14 Sept. 10-Oct. 31 +At least three points 6 N/A
2079 Kootenay 4-15 A Sept. 10-Oct. 31 +At least three points 12 58.6:1
2080 Kootenay 4-15 C


Sept. 10-Oct. 31 +At least three points 3 67.5:1

2081 Kootenay 4-16 A


Sept. 10-Oct. 31 +At least three points 8 83.5:1

2082 Kootenay 4-16 B


Sept. 10-Oct. 31 +At least three points 15 70.4:1

2083 Kootenay 4-17


Sept. 10-Oct. 31 +At least three points 5 53.7:1

2084 Kootenay 4-31 Sept. 10-Oct. 31 +At least three points 5 N/A
2085 Kootenay 4-32 Sept. 10-Oct. 31 +At least three points 9 62.2:1
2086 Kootenay 4-33


Sept. 10-Oct. 31 +At least three points 5 101.4:1
2087 Kootenay 4-38 Sept. 10-Oct. 10 +At least three points 3 39.7:1

[Stone Sheep Steve]

But those odds will only get better and better as we lose more and more hunters:roll:. I'm sure I will be drawn by 2050:-).

SSS

[BCrams]

But those odds will only get better and better as we lose more and more hunters:roll:. I'm sure I will be drawn by 2050:-).

SSS

We'll put the tag on your grave SSS.

[budismyhorse]

Can I ask the question, why were they put on LEH in the first place?

I actually don't have a clue why, or how long ago LEH was designated in that region.

Was the mandate to produce Quality Elk, meaning trophy class monsters that will get BC "on the map" in the hunting world for both hunting AND elk management.

Was it due to a struggling population?

Why are Rosi Elk on draw? (maybe another thread or a PM from someone).

[hunter1947]

The way I see the pole ,I would have to say no keep as is http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/images/icons/icon13.gif,You have to have conservation in order to have a health species and a good population.

[BCrams]

The way I see the pole ,I would have to say no keep as is http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/images/icons/icon13.gif,You have to have conservation in order to have a health species and a good population.

The elk herds are healthy and thriving. Removing the LEH will not have a detrimental impact on the health herd because there is as it said ' no conservation concern '

[frenchbar]

I voted yes remove the leh.I dont live in the region,have never hunted elk in my live ,but would like to introduce my sons into the elk hunting scene.waiting to get drawn for a leh tag is another detriment to the young hunters in this province.

[hunter1947]

Roosevelt elk were put on draw about 40 years ago. The population was very low in numbers ,so they implemented LEH. It has been that way ever since. I talked to Ian hatter a biologist in Vic wildlife branch about 2 years ago and I ask him what do you think the population of elk are hear on the island ,he said roughly around 7000. It would be a slaughter house if the took the LEH off ,I hope they never do that.

[Dannybuoy]

Can I ask the question, why were they put on LEH in the first place?

I actually don't have a clue why, or how long ago LEH was designated in that region.

Was the mandate to produce Quality Elk, meaning trophy class monsters that will get BC "on the map" in the hunting world for both hunting AND elk management.

Was it due to a struggling population?

Why are Rosi Elk on draw? (maybe another thread or a PM from someone).
I am not sure about all the mu 's but 4-32 has only had a LEH for a few years now , transplanted? the herd has been growing quite nicely as far as i know ... I believe there were 9 - 3pt or better last season drawn there were only 3 drawn the first season . cant remember the year (mid 90's) I am sure someone else can add to this

[BCrams]

I voted yes remove the leh.I dont live in the region,have never hunted elk in my live ,but would like to introduce my sons into the elk hunting scene.waiting to get drawn for a leh tag is another detriment to the young hunters in this province.

Now thats what I am talking about!!!!

I will probably never hunt Region 4 for elk but I believe we need to do what we can province wide to encourage hunting and what a way to do it without additional barriers!!

Even a local like Brambles (and many many others) will concede he'd be thrilled to take his son out hunting in the evenings after school for elk!!

[budismyhorse]

hey thanks H47!

so, same for the Westys?

[Dannybuoy]

I guess the "conservation concern " are the key words ... with no concerns I would vote yes ...

[mcrae]

If conservation is no concern I guess its a good idea but it still brings up the argument with a herd that has only had LEH on it should we break in the new GOS slowly and let them adjust to the new pressure or just hit them hard for couple years and hope they learn fast? Thats my main issue is these animals have not had the same hunting pressure on them as the E.Koot herds so my worry would be a really high rate of harvest for the first couple of years while they adjust a GOS. I had the the 4-16 draw last year and its true with the current LEH system and odds I will most likely never get a chance to hunt there again unless it changes....

[hunter1947]

The elk herds are healthy and thriving. Removing the LEH will not have a detrimental impact on the health herd because there is as it said ' no conservation concern '
Well then it will be a slaughter house if they lift the LEH in the WK ,thats why I hope they never lift the LEH hear for the island ,the same thing would happen hear if they did so.http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/images/icons/icon13.gif. Elk that have not been on a open season will be picked off vary easy to an open season.

[bighornbob]

Was the mandate to produce Quality Elk, meaning trophy class monsters that will get BC "on the map" in the hunting world for both hunting AND elk management.

Sure there are monsters in there, but that does not stop one from killing an ordinary elk.

If it is to be managed as a trophy area (as some want it to remain), make it 6 point or better and must score at least, say 340. I know that scoring may be tough for some people but if they do not know how to score they should not be applying for the huntas it would strickly be a trophy area.

I know of more then a few elk that were killed in the area that were dinky 5 points at best and even one 3 point.

If it is to stay a trophy area strict rules like the ones mentioned above should be adopted. If not and there is no conservations concerns open her up to a General open season.

BHB

[hunter1947]

Sure there are monsters in there, but that does not stop one from killing an ordinary elk.

If it is to be managed as a trophy area (as some want it to remain), make it 6 point or better and must score at least, say 340. I know that scoring may be tough for some people but if they do not know how to score they should not be applying for the huntas it would strickly be a trophy area.

I know of more then a few elk that were killed in the area that were dinky 5 points at best and even one 3 point.

If it is to stay a trophy area strict rules like the ones mentioned above should be adopted. If not and there is no conservations concerns open her up to a General open season.

BHB It would be very hard to know if a bull was supporting a 340+ rack on him unless you said to him stand there while I measure your rack ???.

[BCrams]

It certainly would be tough without considerable experience.

[Seeadler]

Even if they opened it up, I would never hunt there. I am in the EK and am not going to drive to the WK to hunt something I can do closer to home, in an area that I am familiar with. The benefit to me would be that it would redistribute the hunting pressure somewhat.

[huntinnut]

If they opened up the wk and possibly the island to a 6 point season first, alot of nice bulls might be taken for a few years, but I can't see it threatening the overall herd much. Maybe after a while a less restrictive season could be looked at.

[rocksteady]

[quote=BCrams;246254]Now thats what I am talking about!!!!

I will probably never hunt Region 4 for elk but I believe we need to do what we can province wide to encourage hunting and what a way to do it without quote]

If you say you are fed up with the me,me,me attitude, why are you not lobbying for a greater expansion of opportunities in your local management unit and species....??????

So why have you been so stubborn about this conversation???

If you never plan to come and hunt here, it appears that you have no "interest" in elk management, just hunting opportunity......

If you have no interest in elk hunting, why are you creating polls that could be construed as misleading in questioning????

Sounds hypocritical to me....

BTW, I voted "no" on the WK poll you created, as I take more heed of an individual who has hunted over there for 20 and seen the herd crash and burn, then grow and flourish over time as compared to a biologist who happens to take a quick look at the "numbers" and says there is "no conservation concern"....

[DWH]

Count on NOT getting these draws in your lifetime at these odds.
Sept. 10-Oct. 31 +At least three points 5 103.4:1
2076 Kootenay 4-08 B





Actually I got this one the first year I ever applied for an LEH - someone's gotta get it right! I'm not certain but I've been told that first time LEH applications (or maybe new hunters) have better odds at being drawn. Definitely sucks for the hunters who repeated apply and are denied but good for recruitment and retention for new hunters (if it is indeed true), I'm proof of that. Not all LEH hunts are hunter killers.

[ARC]

I technically live outside of the region, but grew up there (my entire life besides the last 2.5 years) and still have all my family there. I usually go back several times to hunt during the season. I think it would be great to have an open season. In fact, I think that if they opened up a 6 pt or better in the WK at the same time they opened up a 3 pt or better in the EK, it would work well to distribute hunters and provide oportunity.

[BCrams]

[quote=BCrams;246254]Now thats what I am talking about!!!!

I will probably never hunt Region 4 for elk but I believe we need to do what we can province wide to encourage hunting and what a way to do it without quote]

If you say you are fed up with the me,me,me attitude, why are you not lobbying for a greater expansion of opportunities in your local management unit and species....??????

Only if you knew! :wink:

So why have you been so stubborn about this conversation???

One reason, attributes to the hard line stance the local clubs have portrayed themselves. I havn't seen the likes of it anywhere else in the province (except maybe the Fort St John club regarding the 4 pt whitetail season ....) I don't believe a minority as such should be influencing decisions as such but rather expose where the support most likely would be on a regional / provincial level.

If you never plan to come and hunt here, it appears that you have no "interest" in elk management, just hunting opportunity......

Sigh - once again you're wrong. I just may one day come down and hit some of my grandfathers old stomping grounds.

If you have no interest in elk hunting, why are you creating polls that could be construed as misleading in questioning????

Misleading? I highly doubt it. Just a dose of reality when it comes to the general hunting population and what they would like to see vs a few vocal minority guys like you.

Sounds hypocritical to me....

You don't know what you're talking about.

BTW, I voted "no" on the WK poll you created, as I take more heed of an individual who has hunted over there for 20 and seen the herd crash and burn, then grow and flourish over time as compared to a biologist who happens to take a quick look at the "numbers" and says there is "no conservation concern"....

Its no surprise you voted no. You have come across as a pretty dense individual thus far.

I've probably heard and know about it as much or more than you have. My grandfather was a well known CO based out of Kimberley and has seen it all from the time before you had milk on your lips through a couple years ago when he passed away. Some of you locals may have met him or heard of him or especially know his boys.



I don't know where you get off putting words in my mouth or anything of the sort.

You should learn a bit more before spouting off.

[GoatGuy]

BTW, I voted "no" on the WK poll you created, as I take more heed of an individual who has hunted over there for 20 and seen the herd crash and burn, then grow and flourish over time as compared to a biologist who happens to take a quick look at the "numbers" and says there is "no conservation concern"....

That die-off was due to a bad winter. Best part is those elk are starting to become a pain and you'll start to see more and more LEH authorizations for cows in the W Koots every single year until we get another bad winter and feed the wolves some more.


There are guys who have hiked and hunted those hills since Christ was a cowboy who support moving it to a GOS. 20 years is a drop in the bucket in that country. Plenty of families that have 3 or 4 generations of hunters who support it.


Best part is the area up the Lardeau has been on GOS for years and nobody's said a peep - no complaints. It's the same friggen country, winter range is probably worse than that south country and the funny part is the same guys who don't support moving to GOS are the ones who are hunting 4-18 and the Lardeau country on GOS. Seems a bit strange to me.



You need to know the biologist and background before you point fingers. You'd be surprised that maybe the biologist lives there and has a fair bit of hunting experience..........................


The current season is a trophy season plain and simple.

The people who don't want a GOS will tell you that and so will the retired biologists who maintained it.


This isn't a conservation issue - it's about trophy hunting.

[rocksteady]

Only if you knew! :wink:


So tell us all that you have done....Besides having a BCWF sticker on your vehicle, be proud of what you feel you have accomplished.....

One reason, attributes to the hard line stance the local clubs have portrayed themselves

Maybe we are more passionate about what we believe in than others, not always a bad thing...Remember years ago when all you heard on the Rafe Mair show was about how the Nechako Dam and Nechako expansion would detrimentally effect the salmon stocks, did you cal Rafe and tell him to stop his "hard line stance"...

Sigh - once again you're wrong. I just may one day come down and hit some of my grandfathers old stomping grounds.

Sigh- Sorry you are always right...My bad....

Just a dose of reality when it comes to the general hunting population and what they would like to see vs a few vocal minority guys like you.

So you are voice for the general hunting population??? How did you get elected to that position???

As far as the local minority, I think theres quite a few others on this site besides me that think you are full of it....

You don't know what you're talking about.

Sigh - Sorry you are always right...My bad #2....

You have come across as a pretty dense individual thus far

Way to keep a date or discussion on a mature level....Maybe some frustration setting in????

My grandfather was a well known CO based out of Kimberley

He may have been a great man, but sometimes genetics don't get passed on
You should learn a bit more before spouting off.

Sigh - Sorry you are always right - My bad #3....



Talk to you soon.....

[cassiarkid]

I like the idea of having a few areas in the province where you have the possiblity of shooting a true trophy elk. If they decide to open up the WK limited areas up fully, we will lose that. I know locals are complaining about elk ruining property and being a general nuisance, so if they do open it up, have it as a three pt and lower open season while still keeping the limited entry draws for the trophy bulls.

[BCrams]

[quote=rocksteady;246417]
So tell us all that you have done....Besides having a BCWF sticker on your vehicle, be proud of what you feel you have accomplished.....

Input for proposed regulation changes :) Some of which will be on the table next year. All geared to provide more opportunity for hunters.

What have you done except defend the 6 pt regulation? So far you've argued against everything without any merrit or facts to back your statements other than fear mongering.

Maybe we are more passionate about what we believe in than others, not always a bad thing...Remember years ago when all you heard on the Rafe Mair show was about how the Nechako Dam and Nechako expansion would detrimentally effect the salmon stocks, did you cal Rafe and tell him to stop his "hard line stance"...

I am sure many individuals did, I wasn't old enough! But it appears you were, did you make the call?

Sigh- Sorry you are always right...My bad....

I don't think anyone would appreciate you making false statements about them, myself included.

So you are voice for the general hunting population??? How did you get elected to that position???

Nope!! Its really simple: refer to the people who voted in the poll. Its not bomb proof, but the general census likely will not change much no matter how you word it.

As far as the local minority, I think theres quite a few others on this site besides me that think you are full of it....

I'd like them to speak up and tell me so!! I don't mind criticism, but if you're going to do so, do it with substance to back yourself up!!


Way to keep a date or discussion on a mature level....Maybe some frustration setting in????

You still are not saying much to change my opinion in that regard!

He may have been a great man, but sometimes genetics don't get passed on

You wanted to know how I knew about the history of elk in the Kootenays, don't cut the rest of the paragraph out and try to make yourself bigger. Anyone can see what you're doing.

You should learn a bit more before spouting off.

Sigh - Sorry you are always right - My bad #3....

Thats right, your bad #3 - how many 'bads' before you learn something?

[BCrams]

I like the idea of having a few areas in the province where you have the possiblity of shooting a true trophy elk. If they decide to open up the WK limited areas up fully, we will lose that. I know locals are complaining about elk ruining property and being a general nuisance, so if they do open it up, have it as a three pt and lower open season while still keeping the limited entry draws for the trophy bulls.

There are many ares in the province already where you have the possibility of shooting a true trophy elk. 7A produces record class bulls every year; so does 7B and other ares in the Kootenays. Just wait until they open up elk in Region 5, where they are spreading at a fairly rapid pace.

Many of these open areas are producing bigger bulls than the LEH zone!

[BCrams]

.................

[KevinB]

I like the idea of having a few areas in the province where you have the possiblity of shooting a true trophy elk. If they decide to open up the WK limited areas up fully, we will lose that. I know locals are complaining about elk ruining property and being a general nuisance, so if they do open it up, have it as a three pt and lower open season while still keeping the limited entry draws for the trophy bulls.

I wasn't aware that there were no world class bulls being shot anywhere besides where they are on LEH seasons that are designed for trophy hunting. If I'm wrong peaese correct me...
Also, I haven't looked at the WK LEH regs, but are there really that many hunts there where you have a reasonable possibility of even being drawn even once in your hunting career? If you don't have a reasonable possibility of being drawn, then no matter what the quality of the hunting, you don't have a reasonable possibility of being able to even attempt to hunt them, and by extension you have no reasonable possibility of shooting a "true trophy elk" in one of those hunts. Sure someone has to get drawn but it's a pretty long shot.
I personally (and I bet I would be speaking for a lot of people) don't care 2 bits whether or not BC is "on the map" or whatever as far as having world class trophy elk potential in a certain area, if there is no reasonable chance of BC residents being able to hunt them more than once in a lifetime, if that.

[BlacktailStalker]

Hasnt there been like 5 of these in the lasts 2 weeks :roll:

[Vader]

I only voted no as that was the option that best suited the present situation.
I believe the region could support a general open season but to arbitrarily just open it up would decimate the bull population. A six point GOS would have the same effect in the west over time as it has in the east. (quality)
These are largely uneducated elk due to the relatively low hunting pressure that has been put on them. Elk in the west respond way different than in the east. Like the east used to be before every hunter learned to, and I use this term loosely, call elk.
The west right now is a large trophy area, well known to those who hunt trophies as indicated by the numbers of applicants each year for the scant amount of tags let out by the MOE. A GOS for six or better would see a huge influx of hunters trying to get one of the "trophies". There is a movement afoot to try and get a guiding territory established for exactly that reason.
Given the huge tracts of road closures and limited access through private property to crown land, this area would be ideal for those with horses and those that like to backcountry pack, once the elk were pushed back from the populated areas. There are equally large areas that can be accessed by the average hunter but these areas would see heavy pressure and do harm to the herds that are located in them.
If the area is moving towards a general open season then IMO it should be done in baby steps, ie: archery season, LEH for 20 tags in each zone that they want to open up and then double it each year for 4 years GOS for 3 or better in the 5th.. By that point the elk would be well educated and at any point the LEH numbers could be toyed with to ensure herd quality and quantity was managed.
Between my son and I, we have 41 years total waiting for the "sacred" draw in this area. I would somehow feel cheated if I wasn't allowed to wait for my "unfortunately" notification. I'd have to find a new reason to bi*ch to fill the void..

[rocksteady]

[quote=rocksteady;246417]
So tell us all that you have done....Besides having a BCWF sticker on your vehicle, be proud of what you feel you have accomplished.....

Input for proposed regulation changes :) Some of which will be on the table next year. All geared to provide more opportunity for hunters.

What have you done except defend the 6 pt regulation? So far you've argued against everything without any merrit or facts to back your statements other than fear mongering.

Maybe we are more passionate about what we believe in than others, not always a bad thing...Remember years ago when all you heard on the Rafe Mair show was about how the Nechako Dam and Nechako expansion would detrimentally effect the salmon stocks, did you cal Rafe and tell him to stop his "hard line stance"...

I am sure many individuals did, I wasn't old enough! But it appears you were, did you make the call?

Sigh- Sorry you are always right...My bad....

I don't think anyone would appreciate you making false statements about them, myself included.

So you are voice for the general hunting population??? How did you get elected to that position???

Nope!! Its really simple: refer to the people who voted in the poll. Its not bomb proof, but the general census likely will not change much no matter how you word it.

As far as the local minority, I think theres quite a few others on this site besides me that think you are full of it....

I'd like them to speak up and tell me so!! I don't mind criticism, but if you're going to do so, do it with substance to back yourself up!!


Way to keep a date or discussion on a mature level....Maybe some frustration setting in????

You still are not saying much to change my opinion in that regard!

He may have been a great man, but sometimes genetics don't get passed on

You wanted to know how I knew about the history of elk in the Kootenays, don't cut the rest of the paragraph out and try to make yourself bigger. Anyone can see what you're doing.

You should learn a bit more before spouting off.

Sigh - Sorry you are always right - My bad #3....

Thats right, your bad #3 - how many 'bads' before you learn something?


Honestly BC Rams I am done arguing the point with you, you seem to have slipped into the gutter with your defences, calling me dense etc, it is very apparent you have completely exhausted you rebutals.....and have taken it to a lower level....

I was kinda pissed when I read this when I logged on this morning, I was gonna paly your game and blast you, however like the wife said to me last night "Why are you matching wits with an unarmed opponent"....She was right.....

So to sum up the closure of this ongoing battle......

1) The proposals were rejected and you lost...Suck it up buttercup....

2) Now that we know what type/kind of person(s) are behind these support/creating proposals, we can ensure that next year, if these are tabled again that we provide a larger support for the resistance.....

I have concluded that the following type of person created/supported the proposal:
1) Not a local with any interest in ensuring quality elk management.
2) Persons who willingly accept carte blanche any sort of scientific paper produced by a person, without looking into it deeper.
3) Possibly someone who may never come to the area to hunt elk, so they really do not care about the elk, just the "opportunities" for others, that may have a hidden agenda unveiled later (maybe open the season in the Koots so a lot of hunters come here rather than in your back yard....)

I feel no regret about posting my opposition to the changes or the opinions I have raised. I just regret having an interaction with you as an individual. I have learned nothing from your comments.....

Oh by the way - The proposal was rejected...Ooops, I think I already told you that.....

See ya next year!!!!!

[boxhitch]

Well, thats about as narrow as they come. Clear and concise, too.

[BCrams]

[quote=rocksteady;246912][quote=BCrams;246667]


Honestly BC Rams I am done arguing the point with you, you seem to have slipped into the gutter with your defences, calling me dense etc, it is very apparent you have completely exhausted you rebutals.....and have taken it to a lower level....

I do not think we have exhausted anything. It has been shown over and over on the posts, 'why' we can move to more liberalized elk seasons.

The readers can see that and hats off to those who have come around and realize it is not such a bad thing.

I was kinda pissed when I read this when I logged on this morning, I was gonna paly your game and blast you, however like the wife said to me last night "Why are you matching wits with an unarmed opponent"....She was right.....

Unarmed? Where's all the information backing your position?

Let us readers on here know please.

Stating opinions are fine, I have nothing against persons who have personal opinions on topics. Just those who push personal opinions against facts.

So to sum up the closure of this ongoing battle......

1) The proposals were rejected and you lost...Suck it up buttercup....

This reaffirms your position in the grand scheme of things.

I am sure the majority of readers will see its individuals like you, are a deterrent to hunting. It is not a very proactive attitude to have.

2) Now that we know what type/kind of person(s) are behind these proposals, we can ensure that next year, if these are tabled again that we provide a larger support for the resistance.....

Once again, you are showing the general hunting members on here the direction you wish things to go.

The people behind these proposals are not selfish. They are thinking about the present and future of hunting for all current and future resident hunters. These same individuals are very educated, very knowledgeable and above all, very passionate about wildlife. Everything from the history of BC wildlife, to enhancement work, to educating the public, to working on providing new hunter opportunities for everyone.

Rejecting proposals which are geared to the benefit of all hunters?? Well .........

I have concluded that the following type of person created the proposal:
1) Not a local with any interest in ensuring quality elk management.
2) Persons who willingly accept carte blanche any sort of scientific paper produced by a person, without looking into it deeper.
3) Possibly someone who may never come to the area to hunt elk, so they really do not care about the elk, just the "opportunities" for others, that may have a hidden agenda unveiled later (maybe open the season in the Koots so a lot of hunters come here rather than in your back yard....)

Wow - I think this is a valid time to say "you're bad #4" You are so wrong on all 3 points as anyone who can clearly see.

I feel no regret about posting my opposition to the changes or the opinions I have raised.

You're entitled to your opinions. We all are.

Oh by the way - The proposal was rejected...Ooops, I think I already told you that.....

We know it was rejected!

[GoatGuy]

Well, thats about as narrow as they come. Clear and concise, too.

:cry:




I have concluded that the following type of person created the proposal:
1) Not a local with any interest in ensuring quality elk management.
2) Persons who willingly accept carte blanche any sort of scientific paper produced by a person, without looking into it deeper.
3) Possibly someone who may never come to the area to hunt elk, so they really do not care about the elk, just the "opportunities" for others, that may have a hidden agenda unveiled later (maybe open the season in the Koots so a lot of hunters come here rather than in your back yard....)

BCRams didn't put the proposal forward - it was put forward by the MoE.


Arguments about hidden agendas and 'quality elk management' whatever that is, don't really seem to work all that well.


There's much reading to be done about what's going on in the West Kootenays - I'd suggest you get at it, inform yourself and then make an informed decision. Between the Caribou Recovery and MoE data there's a couple hundred pages worth of reading. If you do read it you might even ask a couple of questions afterwards.............

and then have some form of a rational argument. I'm sure things would be much more dynamic on this board if folks were a little bit more prepared before they formed an opinion, myself included.

[GoatGuy]

I like the idea of having a few areas in the province where you have the possiblity of shooting a true trophy elk. If they decide to open up the WK limited areas up fully, we will lose that. I know locals are complaining about elk ruining property and being a general nuisance, so if they do open it up, have it as a three pt and lower open season while still keeping the limited entry draws for the trophy bulls.

First, you need to define what a trophy bull is. To some it's a 6pt, some it's 300", some it's 340".

The biggest bulls in the province are not coming out of the West Koots right now and other regions are producing plenty of good 340+ bulls. The EK is producing 340+ as is reg 8, reg 7A and also a couple bulls in 7B between 370" and one right up close to 400".

Maybe trophy bulls for guys that like to shoot them off of fence posts in barnyards in 4W?

[cassiarkid]

When I say trophy bull, I mean the possibility of shooting a Boone and Crockett type animal. There isn't too many places in the province right now where that is possible. You look at the BC Records book and a lot of the top trophy bulls have been taken out of the WK limited areas. I live in the EK's and have shot 2 bulls over 310, but the chances of me ever shooting a 360-380 bull over here is way less then me getting drawn for the WK tag and taking a "trophy bull" over there. Opening up the WK limited areas to a general open season would kill it. The hunting pressure would be incredible and people would hunt it out in a matter of years. The only good thing, would be it would take some pressure off the EK's. But the trophy potential, genetically speaking, isn't near as good in the EK's as it is in the WK limited area's like Sentinel Mtn, for example. Sure you do get the odd 350-360+ bull shot in the EK's, but there are certain limited areas in the WK's where the average mature bull is 340 - 350, not like 310-320 for the EK's. And for those hunters who don't care about trophy quality, then the regulations as they stand should not bother you, as there are many cow tags in the EK's and WK's with not bad odds. And yes they have upped the number of tags given out in the limited areas to increase odds of being drawn.
Cheers

[BCrams]

When I say trophy bull, I mean the possibility of shooting a Boone and Crockett type animal. There isn't too many places in the province right now where that is possible. You look at the BC Records book and a lot of the top trophy bulls have been taken out of the WK limited areas. I live in the EK's and have shot 2 bulls over 310, but the chances of me ever shooting a 360-380 bull over here is way less then me getting drawn for the WK tag and taking a "trophy bull" over there. Opening up the WK limited areas to a general open season would kill it. The hunting pressure would be incredible and people would hunt it out in a matter of years. The only good thing, would be it would take some pressure off the EK's. But the trophy potential, genetically speaking, isn't near as good in the EK's as it is in the WK limited area's like Sentinel Mtn, for example. Sure you do get the odd 350-360+ bull shot in the EK's, but there are certain limited areas in the WK's where the average mature bull is 340 - 350, not like 310-320 for the EK's. And for those hunters who don't care about trophy quality, then the regulations as they stand should not bother you, as there are many cow tags in the EK's and WK's with not bad odds. And yes they have upped the number of tags given out in the limited areas to increase odds of being drawn.
Cheers

Just wait until you see the next published edition of the BC Record Book when it comes out. You're going to find a great number of elk outside of the Kootenays that will be taking up top spots in the book. Not the W. Kootenay LEH bulls.

[cassiarkid]

Looking forward to reading about them in the new book in a few years. By the way, anyone heard about any B&C elk taken in BC this year??

Cheers

[Fisher-Dude]

Looking forward to reading about them in the new book in a few years. By the way, anyone heard about any B&C elk taken in BC this year??

Cheers

I heard of a 390 class bull taken up in reg 7 this year...or was it 2006? Anyways, that's a stud bull and I'd love to see pics of it!

I actually had a WK draw in the early 90s (109:1 :eek: ). Didn't really know what to expect, so I plugged the first nice bull that I called in. There are certainly much larger bulls there, but I was happy with the one I got. My best bull (323") came from the EK, go figure!

[BCrams]

I heard of a 390 class bull taken up in reg 7 this year...or was it 2006? Anyways, that's a stud bull and I'd love to see pics of it!

I actually had a WK draw in the early 90s (109:1 :eek: ). Didn't really know what to expect, so I plugged the first nice bull that I called in. There are certainly much larger bulls there, but I was happy with the one I got. My best bull (323") came from the EK, go figure!

Come on now FD, surely that 390 bull must have come from the special West Kootenay LEH Trophy bull draw area. :roll:

[cassiarkid]

Hmmm...look at the top 3 legally shot bulls in BC in the BC book and tell me where they are shot. Not region 7. Also when the new book comes out, have a look at how many new book bulls came out of the WK compared to the entire rest of the Province. Biggest Elk I seen this year was 375 Non-typical and guess where it was shot, ya ya not region 7!!

[hunter1947]

Back near the boarder of 4-24 in the EK near banff national park and the BC boarder carries some trophy elk ,I know of a guy that shot a few bull scoring up in the 385 class range.

[4blade]

since when is a3pt or better considered a trophy area,i didnt think they scored that high as 3,s 4,s and 5,s,yes there are some nice bulls there but how do you have a GOS on 900 elk.maybe we could work towards that slowly with solid facts and the elk herds health and numbers taking precidence over hunters and govt wishes and wants.

[Tinney]

Out of region. Keep as is 8)

Go ahead rams, ask me WHY, like you always do :roll:

[BCrams]

Out of region. Keep as is 8)

Go ahead rams, ask me WHY, like you always do :roll:

Of course I am going to ask you why.

Why do you think it should be kept as is? Lets hear what you have to say.

[Tinney]

I don't believe in the terminology 'no conservaion concern'

There is ALWAYS a conservation concern.

One bad winter. You're back to the scratch. Increase LEH perhaps, blow the region wide open, my opinion, baaaad idea.

[GoatGuy]

I don't believe in the terminology 'no conservaion concern'

There is ALWAYS a conservation concern.

One bad winter. You're back to the scratch. Increase LEH perhaps, blow the region wide open, my opinion, baaaad idea.

One bad winter? Back to scratch?


You should have access to some litt on this, read it then post.


I have higher expectations than this.

[Tinney]

Post it for me, mailman. I might read it :-P

[BCrams]

I don't believe in the terminology 'no conservaion concern'

There is ALWAYS a conservation concern.

One bad winter. You're back to the scratch. Increase LEH perhaps, blow the region wide open, my opinion, baaaad idea.

I suggest you go do some reading and come back to this.

[BCrams]

I got a response from Tinney:

No, I don't think I will.
I'll admit to knowing less than I should about elk biology, but I am not one of those people who is all for wide open seasons. I would rather see protection than exploitation. I'd rather see surplus elk, than be sitting on the edge of a possible collapse. Which is entirely possible, based on projected harvest numbers in a 3pt GOS rifle and a wide open archery season, followed by a hard winter. No, I won't debate this with you on the board.

[Tinney]

Well I guess that stops my posting again. Later

[hunter1947]

I don't believe in the terminology 'no conservaion concern'

There is ALWAYS a conservation concern.

One bad winter. You're back to the scratch. Increase LEH perhaps, blow the region wide open, my opinion, baaaad idea.
Well im glad you think that way Tinney ,im with you on what you are saying ,thanks ,I needed that statement.http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/images/icons/icon12.gif.

[MOWITCH SLAYER]

L.E.H WORKS!!! When a population of any species is in LEH . the pop well grow, as the herd grow's, GIVE OUT MORE LEH .To open a GOS undermines all the time spent on getting the herd back on track. More money is made from LEH and the amount of hunters in any area can be controled .

[bighornbob]

If there is always a conservation concern, lets close the season down all together. Why have a hunting season if all the elk may be killed this winter anyway.:rolleyes:

BHB

[Fisher-Dude]

L.E.H WORKS!!! When a population of any species is in LEH . the pop well grow, as the herd grow's, GIVE OUT MORE LEH .To open a GOS undermines all the time spent on getting the herd back on track. More money is made from LEH and the amount of hunters in any area can be controled .


Got any hard statistics to back that up? Where in MoE literature does it verify that LEH brings in more revenue than GOS? Does limiting the number of elk hunters in the WK to 60 or 70 individuals really generate much revenue compared to a GOS that is open to all hunters? LEH is proven to cause hunters to give up hunting completely - how does a large number of hunters quitting hunting generate more revenue than opportunity created by GOS?

Elk tags cost $25 while LEH costs $6 - not hard to see how encouraging GOS and participation by those who otherwise wouldn't buy an elk tag quickly outpaces (more than 4 to 1) the LEH application revenue.

[MOWITCH SLAYER]

fisher dude - you sure don't like LEH , lets kill them all and then go fishing

[MOWITCH SLAYER]

i would have to say that low hunter numbers are more to do with gun control than LEH

[BCrams]

i would have to say that low hunter numbers are more to do with gun control than LEH

You don't bother reading the research which shows LEH is one of the factors to cause decline in hunter numbers do you?

But as it is with other hunters like yourself, you're entitled to personal opinions.

[MOWITCH SLAYER]

BCrams- no i did not, but thank you for letting me have my opinion . I have put two of my kids through core with high marks just to see how
choked they are that they can not carry their own rifle . THEY BOTH QUITE

[bighornbob]

BCrams- no i did not, but thank you for letting me have my opinion . I have put two of my kids through core with high marks just to see how
choked they are that they can not carry their own rifle . THEY BOTH QUITE

Who says they cant carry their own rifle. You just have to supervise them but you both can carry a rifle.

BHB

[boxhitch]

choked they are that they can not carry their own rifle . THEY BOTH QUITESounds like a lack of motivation or commitment

[MOWITCH SLAYER]

I can't blame them, we tell kids we want them to learn the art of hunting and that they should take their courses as soon as possible, age 14 then we tell them OH YA! you can't carry a firearm till your 19 and have completed the firearms course . where is the motivation in that

[GoatGuy]

I can't blame them, we tell kids we want them to learn the art of hunting and that they should take their courses as soon as possible, age 14 then we tell them OH YA! you can't carry a firearm till your 19 and have completed the firearms course . where is the motivation in that

yes you can.

[GoatGuy]

Post it for me, mailman. I might read it :-P

Too disappointed.

[islandboy]

I got a response from Tinney:

No, I don't think I will.
I'll admit to knowing less than I should about elk biology, but I am not one of those people who is all for wide open seasons. I would rather see protection than exploitation. I'd rather see surplus elk, than be sitting on the edge of a possible collapse. Which is entirely possible, based on projected harvest numbers in a 3pt GOS rifle and a wide open archery season, followed by a hard winter. No, I won't debate this with you on the board.

I am on the understanding that hunting is a critical part of conservation. Primarily to balance the herds prior to winter to prevent starvation of the whole herd and their subsequent collapse. Protectionism is more likely to cause collapse of wildlife numbers than is effective hunter management. Also LEH does put hunting pressure (albeit minimal) on the Elk, thus exposing them to the truth behind human contact. Please, correct me if I am wrong.

[Moosenose]

I didn't know how the LEH worked so I did a little bird-dogging of my own and here is what I found out.



http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=17274&highlight=point+system&page=3

What this all means is
that if we go to a priority system, nearly half of our applicants can
expect to wait at least a decade, if not many times that, before they
will have any chance of being drawn. In a very few years, for many
hunts, the priority list will be so long that no new person taking up
hunting will have an opportunity to hunt prior to advanced age. Can you imagine a teenager paying money annually to enter a system that might provide them with a chance to hunt when they're 65 years old?

THE BC APPROACH

In British Columbia, we have developed a system we call 'enhanced odds'.
Rather than reward unsuccessful applicants, we reduce the chances of
previously successful applicants. All applicants that are drawn have
their chances reduced by 50% in the following year.

The beauty of this system is that it does not discriminate against first
time applicants and it self-adjusts according to demand.

The two main concerns with point systems are the length of turn-over
time for high odds hunts and the potential for these turn-over times to
discourage hunter recruitment.

Moosenose: Wonder how they do this?
It does make one wonder about the current enhanced system and exactly how the draw procedure happens?

Tanya’s husband says:
I can't see why we can't keep having a lottery type thing for popular hunts (you're 50:1 odds example). But have a preference pointsystem for lower odd hunts. Say 5:1 or lower.That way people could plan ahead way more effectively as you would know roughly when you would be drawn. This would do away with the lucky or unlucky person being treated so differently. I also don't think 5 years is too long to wait for a tag.

Moosenose: This makes a lot of sense to me. Have the lottery draws on the high odds, and point system on the lower odd draws. The debate would then be: what is the cut-off?

as for the West Kootenay Elk draw: get rid of it, go to 6 point if necessary. I am a Kootenay boy and would love to take my grandsons elk hunting.

[Tinney]

You guys are jerks. The guy is giving you a prime example of one of the top areas of hunter loss and you call his kids lazy and unmotivated! How high and mighty you are!

Rams makes my words look like I don't know the biology. Of course I know the biology. There are two ways to winterkill. Overpopulation, and deep deep deep deep snow where animals die IRREGARDLESS of population numbers. That's what happened in '94. Wanna go back there? LEH IS NOT one of the biggest factors to hunter recruitment. YES I've seen the R&R package.

I love you guys, if you can't win by logic, you beat the people you're debating with into the ground with post after post after post after post. The rest of us have work to do you lifeless internet trolls!

[BCrams]

I can't blame them, we tell kids we want them to learn the art of hunting and that they should take their courses as soon as possible, age 14 then we tell them OH YA! you can't carry a firearm till your 19 and have completed the firearms course . where is the motivation in that

They can carry a firearm!! I carried one when hunting with my father ever since I was 12 after I passed the core!! They just have to be with you thats all, and at that age, they need to learn as much as they can from you and obviously from that buck you have in your avatar, you know you could get them in on some nice bucks to shoot.

[GoatGuy]

You guys are jerks. The guy is giving you a prime example of one of the top areas of hunter loss and you call his kids lazy and unmotivated! How high and mighty you are!

Rams makes my words look like I don't know the biology. Of course I know the biology. There are two ways to winterkill. Overpopulation, and deep deep deep deep snow where animals die IRREGARDLESS of population numbers. That's what happened in '94. Wanna go back there? LEH IS NOT one of the biggest factors to hunter recruitment. YES I've seen the R&R package.



Two ways to winterkill? Deep, deep, deep, deep snow? Is that like average snow X4?

What happened in 94?

Read more.

[BCrams]

You guys are jerks. The guy is giving you a prime example of one of the top areas of hunter loss and you call his kids lazy and unmotivated! How high and mighty you are!

You might want to rephrase the first sentence. Most simply told him his kids indeed are allowed to carry a firearm while hunting with him after they pass the core.

Rams makes my words look like I don't know the biology. Of course I know the biology. There are two ways to winterkill. Overpopulation, and deep deep deep deep snow where animals die IRREGARDLESS of population numbers. That's what happened in '94. Wanna go back there? LEH IS NOT one of the biggest factors to hunter recruitment. YES I've seen the R&R package.

You don't Tinney. You still had milk on your lips in '94. I was hunting up there that year and also the year after. To correct you however, it was 'not' the 'deep deep deep snow'. That spring, there was a thaw coupled with heavy rain followed by a heavy freeze, in which was abnormal. I never did say LEH was the biggest factors to hunter recruitment, it is 'one of the factors'. If you've read the package or the mailmans paper, we would not be having this discussion with you.

I love you guys, if you can't win by logic, you beat the people you're debating with into the ground with post after post after post after post. The rest of us have work to do you lifeless internet trolls!

We simply debate and post with facts to counter all the opinions with hope to educate more individuals. Where have you made a positive contribution to a discussion by presenting the skills you are learning in school without posting personal rants and rhetoric.



.............

[Tinney]

I'm out man. You win, like you always do.

[BCrams]

I'm out man. You win, like you always do.

If you can post something on here that is factual, you will find very few of us will dispute you.

[bighornbob]

Come on Rams and Goatguy how dare you post studies, facts, stats and quotes from biologists/experts/world renowned experts. Everybody on here knows full well that information like "my dads buddy" knows of fields of hybrids or "my neighbor said that the youth and senior elk hunt in the kootenays is a complete slaughter" is whats going on in the real world:rolleyes:

BHB

[Nooker77]

Dannyboy...the 4 32 draw has been around for a while....more than 10 years....a buddy of mine took a beauty 6 outta there atleast 10 years ago and I know of a guy from vernon that has gotten the draw the past 2 season and taken great bulls as well!! Just ask the shed hunters in the edgewood area....lots of great bone dropped in the spring!! I have been putting in for the "lottery" draw for as long as I can remember...with no luck!! I still like the LEH for that reagion...even if I never get drawn!!!:redface:

[Tinney]

Nothing anyone says on this board is factual to you. You argue with everyone's point, because you're never wrong. And you have the patience to sit here in front of the computer and bash out reply after reply after reply. I don't. I prefer to get my work done in the real world, rather than sit here and argue with knowitalls all day. You've got my email. You want my input or help on a project, use that medium. I refuse to debate on this forum.

[Dannybuoy]

Nothing anyone says on this board is factual to you. You argue with everyone's point, because you're never wrong. And you have the patience to sit here in front of the computer and bash out reply after reply after reply. I don't. I prefer to get my work done in the real world, rather than sit here and argue with knowitalls all day. You've got my email. You want my input or help on a project, use that medium. I refuse to debate on this forum.
Tinney : these guys are easy to beat in an arguement ... All you have to do is supply some documentation or proof ..... Nothing but the facts
bookem Dano

[Tinney]

Dano, you aint been around long. rams always gets what he wants, because noone wants to spend the time arguing with the _________ (insert your favourite bcrams adjective here)

[BCrams]

Dano, you aint been around long. rams always gets what he wants, because noone wants to spend the time arguing with the _________ (insert your favourite bcrams adjective here)

Who's arguing? You're obviously very upset because you have not been able to present anything logical, facts or anything scientific. You should know better as they teach you that in school.



Nothing anyone says on this board is factual to you. You argue with everyone's point, because you're never wrong. And you have the patience to sit here in front of the computer and bash out reply after reply after reply. I don't. I prefer to get my work done in the real world, rather than sit here and argue with knowitalls all day. You've got my email. You want my input or help on a project, use that medium. I refuse to debate on this forum.



There have been many individuals who have posted facts and they are duely noted. I don't profess to be a know it all! I just simply rebutt what you say with the truth and facts based on information from the bio's etc. Whereas you don't.

I don't think you have proven yourself for me solicit any advice as far as projects go yet. You're too biased in favour of your personal views and agenda.

As Dano says (and I am sure he has been following this as much as anyone else), back your statements and I'll be the first to credit you. For example, if you come up with a better solution for mangement, don't just say it, tell us why its a good solution.

[Fisher-Dude]

Dano, you aint been around long. rams always gets what he wants, because noone wants to spend the time arguing with the _________ (insert your favourite bcrams adjective here)

Is "well-informed guy that knows how to analyse a situation based on scientific facts and statistics, and come to a reasonable solution based on what's best for both the herd and for the future of hunting in BC" an adjective? :biggrin:

[Tinney]

I shouldn't have to prove myself to everyone on the dam internet. Respect people's opinions, and reflect on your own.

[Tinney]

Is "well-informed guy that knows how to analyse a situation based on scientific facts and statistics, and come to a reasonable solution based on what's best for both the herd and for the future of hunting in BC" an adjective? :biggrin:

So bcrams is the all knowing problem solver for hunting in bc. Oh _ _ _ _

[BCrams]

I shouldn't have to prove myself to everyone on the dam internet. Respect people's opinions, and reflect on your own.

I respect that everyone has their personal opinions and you're entitled to them as I am.

Sometimes the problem with personal opinions on the internet, such as this forum is perhaps individuals will take it as word. Some of us merely present what is 'real' with hope to educate / inform those who are reading this.

I believe there is one person on here who is a Kootenay local who happened to be vehemently opposed to this regulation change idea for the Kootenay elk. Over time he opened up and then made the call himself to find out what we already knew. I think he's on board now.

[Tinney]

i'll never cease to be amazed at how one well spoken guy on a website can create a mass following of people to his cause. it's one man's opinion, and rams i really would like to know who's got their hand up your arse making your lips move, cause this certainly isnt a personal agenda you're pushing.

[Fisher-Dude]

Tick tock tick tock tick tock...:wink::lol:

[BCrams]

i'll never cease to be amazed at how one well spoken guy on a website can create a mass following of people to his cause. it's one man's opinion, and rams i really would like to know who's got their hand up your arse making your lips move, cause this certainly isnt a personal agenda you're pushing.

It is not a personal agenda. Believe it or not, its an agenda which will benefit hunters all across British Columbia for more hunting opportunities.

Even for you buddy!

[Tinney]

No! Not for me! I don't hunt elk! Yet! the only thing I want to see is sustainability, and going from 5 LEH/year or thereabouts to a wide open GOS is a ret@rded management decision, based on politics, not biology!

[Tinney]

More hunting opportunities, at what cost to game populations!!!!??? Everyone wants recruitment, but the way to get it is not through blowing the province wide open in a free for all shooting spree.

[BCrams]

More hunting opportunities, at what cost to game populations!!!!??? Everyone wants recruitment, but the way to get it is not through blowing the province wide open in a free for all shooting spree.

Who said anything about a shooting spree at any time? Do you think creating viable seasons will hurt the game populations?

[Tinney]

I don't agree that going from a restrictive LEH to 3pt GOS is viable!!!!!

[Fisher-Dude]

No! Not for me! I don't hunt elk! Yet! the only thing I want to see is sustainability, and going from 5 LEH/year or thereabouts to a wide open GOS is a ret@rded management decision, based on politics, not biology!

Have you spoken with Garth Mowat yet to see why he doesn't feel there is a conservation concern?

[Fisher-Dude]

I don't agree that going from a restrictive LEH to 3pt GOS is viable!!!!!

The proposal is for a 6 point GOS. Haven't you done your homework on the proposal before you decided to put your 2 cents worth in?

[Tinney]

No, but I bet I can ballpark his reply :-P

[BCrams]

I don't agree that going from a restrictive LEH to 3pt GOS is viable!!!!!

The LEH hunt would go to a 6 pt GOS.

[Tinney]

The proposal is for a 6 point GOS. Haven't you done your homework on the proposal before you decided to put your 2 cents worth in?

I saw a number of proposals......the 3pt one was the one that I saw determined as the most likely change.

[Tinney]

OK. That's a little better :-P I still don't fully agree

[BCrams]

I saw a number of proposals......the 3pt one was the one that I saw determined as the most likely change.

You must have things mixed up. The 3 pt season (albiet a short one) was put on the table for the current 6 pt GOS in the Kootenays.



OK. That's a little better :razz: I still don't fully agree


Thats ok if it is your personal opinion. However, why don't you agree?

[Fisher-Dude]

I saw a number of proposals......the 3pt one was the one that I saw determined as the most likely change.

There wasn't a 3 point GOS proposal for the WK. The only one was for 6 point.

[Schutzen]

I have a few opinions on the subject.
I have read with great interest the opinions of the posters on this thread and appreciate their heartfelt passion or opinions in the matter.
First I tend to think that the lack of hunting opportunities was the reason that hunter numbers dropped off so far. However I do not discount the Fed govt's impact with the gun laws either, just think that it is a lot less of a factor.
I don't see why a GOS can not work there (WK). It works in many other jurisdictions on a wide variety of game and can easily be regulated by any number of means. The simplest is vary the length of the season as we all know. The dreaded antler restrictions another.
As far as winter kills go it does not matter if you have a pop of 10,000 elk (LEH) or 7,500 elk (GOS) if its a serious winter they will almost all die and you will have a remnant pop till the elk can recover. Thats how its always been..how many makes no diff, they simply die off and a few survive.
I think that if we can get back to more open seasons then the hunter numbers will gradually come back with the increase of GOS.
Myself speaking a little selfishly now..I have been really unlucky with LEH draws and so I might be a bit biased cuz of that fact.
With the Roosevelt Elk on the Island I have been applying since the 1st leh for them in 1976 IIRC. NADA
I have only managed to get drawn for Moose twice in about 12yrs. Got one goat tag as well. If it wasn't for the GOS for deer etc here an there what would I hunt?

[rocksteady]

Have you spoken with Garth Mowat yet to see why he doesn't feel there is a conservation concern? Fisher-Dude

Originally Posted by Fisher-Dude http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/showthread.php?p=257217#post257217)
The elk belong to and are hunted by all the people of BC, not just those residing in Region 4.


Lets put this in plain ole black and white.....

WE IN THE REGION 4 AREA GOT SCREWED BACK IN THE 1980/90'S BY A CERTAIN BIOLOGIST NAMED DEMARCHI AND WE DON'T WANT TO SEE IT HAPPEN AGAIN.

Garth may be a hellofa smart guy, but he has to prove that he is smarter and more honest than old Ray was.

We are posting our comments regarding the changes, for the people of the whole province, to guarantee that there will be elk to hunt in the future...

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Have you spoken with Garth Mowat yet to see why he doesn't feel there is a conservation concern? Fisher-Dude

Originally Posted by Fisher-Dude http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/showthread.php?p=257217#post257217)
The elk belong to and are hunted by all the people of BC, not just those residing in Region 4.


Lets put this in plain ole black and white.....

WE IN THE REGION 4 AREA GOT SCREWED BACK IN THE 1980/90'S BY A CERTAIN BIOLOGIST NAMED DEMARCHI AND WE DON'T WANT TO SEE IT HAPPEN AGAIN.

Garth may be a hellofa smart guy, but he has to prove that he is smarter and more honest than old Ray was.

We are posting our comments regarding the changes, for the people of the whole province, to guarantee that there will be elk to hunt in the future...

So please correct me if I'm wrong.............What happenned back then so "we" got screwed?? Was it partly due to an elk herd that rose in population under years of a 3 pt GOS long season (with twice as many hunters) to the point where ranchers were screaming for some help and an over-reaction by the then head bio where he handed out thousands of cow/calf draws for consecutive years.....followed by a nasty winter??? Was this what happenned??
How can we prevent this from happenning again?? Maybe prevent the elk heard from reaching that point again before the ranching community screams louder and winter range goes for a chit???

Hmmmmmmmm.....I wonder how we can prevent that from happenning again????

Any ideas?? Anyone????:confused: Of course I've swayed off topic over to the E. Koots...my apologies.

SSS

[Tinney]

I don't agree with jumping from a restrictive LEH season to a wide open GOS. Increase the LEH first, then if it works, and your numbers are OK the following winter, increase it again, or look at a wide open GOS. I don't believe the best interests of the herd are being looked at. I believe this is a political decision aimed at getting more hunters in BC. The program is working, but too fast.

[Timbow]

WE IN THE REGION 4 AREA GOT SCREWED BACK IN THE 1980/90'S BY A CERTAIN BIOLOGIST NAMED DEMARCHI AND WE DON'T WANT TO SEE IT HAPPEN AGAIN.

..


Who are "we"? What part of "we" includes guys from the lower mainland, central interior? Man, when are you going to realize that simply living in one region does give you ownership over the elk. I do recall the NDP spending stumpage royalties in the form of Forest Renewal to help provide feed for elk in the Kootaneys during a tough winter.

[Fisher-Dude]

WE IN THE REGION 4 AREA GOT SCREWED BACK IN THE 1980/90'S BY A CERTAIN BIOLOGIST NAMED DEMARCHI AND WE DON'T WANT TO SEE IT HAPPEN AGAIN.


Well, to play Devil's Advocate here, perhaps you owe a lot to DeMarchi. He created the need for the restrictive 6 point elk season that you want by issuing those 1000s of flat top LEHs. Without him, you may still be on 3 point GOS, and you would hate that, as, according to you, the hunting would suck. You say you now have the best elk hunting you've ever had, thanks to Mr DeMarchi. :wink:

[Timbow]

I don't agree with jumping from a restrictive LEH season to a wide open GOS. Increase the LEH first, then if it works, and your numbers are OK the following winter, increase it again, or look at a wide open GOS. I don't believe the best interests of the herd are being looked at. I believe this is a political decision aimed at getting more hunters in BC. The program is working, but too fast.

Are you a politican?

[Tinney]

Are you a politican?

:lol: I'm just a dumb fish student

[Timbow]

:lol: I'm just a dumb fish student

:lol:...just checking...

[hunter1947]

Have you spoken with Garth Mowat yet to see why he doesn't feel there is a conservation concern? Fisher-Dude

Originally Posted by Fisher-Dude http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/showthread.php?p=257217#post257217)
The elk belong to and are hunted by all the people of BC, not just those residing in Region 4.


Lets put this in plain ole black and white.....

WE IN THE REGION 4 AREA GOT SCREWED BACK IN THE 1980/90'S BY A CERTAIN BIOLOGIST NAMED DEMARCHI AND WE DON'T WANT TO SEE IT HAPPEN AGAIN.

Garth may be a hellofa smart guy, but he has to prove that he is smarter and more honest than old Ray was.

We are posting our comments regarding the changes, for the people of the whole province, to guarantee that there will be elk to hunt in the future...
Glad they give him the boot ,he was partners in a guiding outfit ,made the regs out to suit the GOF. Your right RS ,we don't need another like him ,glad to see Bob Forbes resign as well.

[hunter1947]

You guys are jerks. The guy is giving you a prime example of one of the top areas of hunter loss and you call his kids lazy and unmotivated! How high and mighty you are!

Rams makes my words look like I don't know the biology. Of course I know the biology. There are two ways to winter kill. Overpopulation, and deep deep deep deep snow where animals die IRREGARDLESS of population numbers. That's what happened in '94. Wanna go back there? LEH IS NOT one of the biggest factors to hunter recruitment. YES I've seen the R&R package.

I love you guys, if you can't win by logic, you beat the people you're debating with into the ground with post after post after post after post. The rest of us have work to do you lifeless internet trolls! You are right Tinney the way to have a healthy number of elk is to look at all , meaning open season for point restrictions ,habitat ,bull to cow racial ,and you also have to look at the winter kills calf recruitment ,predator kills ,pouching ,a bad winter in every 10 years ,LEH draws. It is one big circle you have to look at all. PS im glad you are back with us Tinney.

[GoatGuy]

I don't agree with jumping from a restrictive LEH season to a wide open GOS. Increase the LEH first, then if it works, and your numbers are OK the following winter, increase it again, or look at a wide open GOS. I don't believe the best interests of the herd are being looked at. I believe this is a political decision aimed at getting more hunters in BC. The program is working, but too fast.

The only political decisions happening around the province is not opening a pile of hunting opportunity up across the province because hunters want 'quality hunts' and believe antler restrictions are their ticket to a booner buck or 300+ bull elk. This is an end game strategy.


Increasing LEH does not induce 'education' of elk, nor does more tags. 6pt or better is extremely low risk even when the heard is exposed to extreme habitat limitations. You should know that!

You'd still be on LEH in 7A if it weren't for some who could see the impact that hunter harvest has on elk (minimal). Even on a 3 pt restriction an elk herd will expand annually into marginal habitat where a half decent winter will put them back to ground zero. There's absolutely no point in having a herd without harvest when they're living in areas they aren't supposed to be. That includes deer populations in 7B, 7A, 6 and in the north end of the West Kootenays.

Unfortunately most hunters blame the ups and downs on ungulate populations on over-harvest. For elk and deer it's most often environmental conditions that create ups and downs in populations which is only increased and inflated by a lack of hunter harvest.


Carrying capacity and hunter harvest are two totally different concepts, as is max sustainable yield.


You've got a lot of good resources at UNBC, start using them.

[GoatGuy]

You are right Tinney the way to have a healthy number of elk is to look at all , meaning open season for point restrictions ,habitat ,bull to cow racial ,and you also have to look at the winter kills calf recruitment ,predator kills ,pouching ,a bad winter in every 10 years ,LEH draws. It is one big circle you have to look at all. PS im glad you are back with us Tinney.

If you don't at least double the elk harvest in the EK in the next couple of years you're going to be back to ground zero again and the only group to blame is going to be hunters.

The 6 pt season is a recovery strategy. We've gone past that and we will likely see we have too many elk. Bull:cow ratios are high and we've simply got too many elk, period.

If hunters don't get onboard with properly managing elk we're going to be back in 1998 all over again and the only ones with smiles are going to be coyotes, bears, cougars and wolves.

Unless hunters start asking some real questions before forming their opinions hunters and elk are going to lose out big time.

[Deaddog]

"Garth may be a hellofa smart guy, but he has to prove that he is smarter and more honest than old Ray was"

I've known Garth for many years, he doesn't have to prove anything to me, he is honest and forthright, if he states he doesn't have a conservation concern, he will be able to back it up with solid scientific reasoning, I would encourage those questioning his Honesty to speak directly to him. Deaddog

[GoatGuy]

"Garth may be a hellofa smart guy, but he has to prove that he is smarter and more honest than old Ray was"

I've known Garth for many years, he doesn't have to prove anything to me, he is honest and forthright, if he states he doesn't have a conservation concern, he will be able to back it up with solid scientific reasoning, I would encourage those questioning his Honesty to speak directly to him. Deaddog

One of the sharpest guys in the province, no doubt.

[hunter1947]

If you don't at least double the elk harvest in the EK in the next couple of years you're going to be back to ground zero again and the only group to blame is going to be hunters.

The 6 pt season is a recovery strategy. We've gone past that and we will likely see we have too many elk. Bull:cow ratios are high and we've simply got too many elk, period.

If hunters don't get onboard with properly managing elk we're going to be back in 1998 all over again and the only ones with smiles are going to be coyotes, bears, cougars and wolves.

Unless hunters start asking some real questions before forming their opinions hunters and elk are going to lose out big time. Then WHY have the game management not opened up a 3 point season if the numbers are so great ???? You tell me why GG ??:roll:??

[GoatGuy]

Then WHY have the game management not opened up a 3 point season if the numbers are so great ???? You tell me why GG ??:roll:??

Hunters form opinions before asking questions.

Unfortunately today biologists are tasked with managing the whims of hunters and other 'stakeholders' as opposed to managing wildlife. I suppose you call it politics.

[hunter1947]

Hunters form opinions before asking questions.

Unfortunately today biologists are tasked with managing the whims of hunters and other 'stakeholders' as opposed to managing wildlife. I suppose you call it politics.
Opinions :rolleyes: GG as me being an elk hunter for many years ,I have give the elk management my thoughts over the years about what I think should be done in order to have a stable head of elk in the EK ,i don't have to ask questions I see what is happening out there in the hunting field. GG thats all I can do as being an elk hunter and telling elk management what you are seeing out there as an elk hunter ,then saying to them what you think is right or wrong ,at least I give them my opinions over the years and that is what counts to me ,I done my part over the years and I feel good inside for doing what that I DID ,giving my opinion to elk management weather my opinion is right or wrong..http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/images/icons/icon12.gif.

[rocksteady]

Who are "we"? What part of "we" includes guys from the lower mainland, central interior? .

WE are the elk hunters of region 4 regardless of home addresses. WE who have seen mismanagemnet of the herds with 1000's of antlerless tags given out without any solicitation of opinion, turning it from a 3pt season to a 6 point season without discussion, decimating the moose population with their "attempt" to balance cow/calf numbers.

WE who have seen decisions made to satisfy Guide/Outfitters, Ranchers, and every other sort of industry that is willing to do the Government favours..

WE are the people who care about the elk management in the Kootenays (East and West) and want any changes done with careful consideration, not just "no conservation concern" statement....

There, does that clear it up????????...I knew someone would try to psychobabblerap my statement when I posted it, just was not sure who it would be.....

[rocksteady]

"Garth may be a hellofa smart guy, but he has to prove that he is smarter and more honest than old Ray was"

I've known Garth for many years, he doesn't have to prove anything to me, he is honest and forthright, if he states he doesn't have a conservation concern, he will be able to back it up with solid scientific reasoning, I would encourage those questioning his Honesty to speak directly to him. Deaddog

(This statement is true, not to be considered written and riddled with sarcasm)

I am glad to see you think he is reputable. Excellent...

I was not questioning his honesty, just wondering how it compared to Ray...I just used the word honesty, maybe it should have been integrity....

There are plenty of other people in this debate who are looking for the same comfort level of a biologist, as we have been bitten before by what we believed was a bio who was taking into account the best interest of wildlife management...

[Tinney]

Elk aren't supposed to be in 7A :lol: Just like moose :lol:

[Tinney]

Thanks for my morning giggle bud :lol:

[kenkell1]

Conservation should always be a first priority before hunter numbers and I am wondering how many more region 4 elk polls there will be on this site before opening day.

[6616]

"Garth may be a hellofa smart guy, but he has to prove that he is smarter and more honest than old Ray was" Deaddog

I've been listening to you good folks speak about the mistakes of "poor ole Ray" for many years now (I'm not singling you out Deaddog) and it continues to bother me that he has personally taken the rap for the mistakes of the past. He did not do this on his own, the cattlemen's lobby had the biggest influence and Ray was ordered by Victoria in 1984 to lower the elk population in the EK by 10,000 head ASAP. Let's stop blaming and scape-goating him for this, he just carried out orders handed down to him from HQ, he merely did what they told him to do!

The continued decline of elk into the '90s well after the antlerless tags were reduced, was due to the fact that the population was decreased too rapidly, throwing the prey predator balance out of whack and we got caught in a predator pit situation. Any one from the EK will verify the high level of wolf predation on elk, and the high level of bear predation on calf elk during the 90's.

I agree, it was a deplorable chain of events culminating with the winter kill of 96/97, and the single largest contributing factor was probably not considering the effects of the prey/predator relationship, and I believe any biologist would have fallen into the same trap because wolves were practically unheard of in the EK in the early '80's except for a few in the National Parks. I don't think we should blame anyone in particular for the unprecedented and sudden growth of the wolf population and it's effects on the elk herd.

The 6pt season was initiated as a component of the recovery strategy that the 2000 to 2004 elk management plan was, and although it really wasn't the key factor in the eventual recovery it was part of the overall solution. It's plain that we no longer need to manage elk in the EK on a recovery strategy. That being said, if we do not bring the elk population down to within the limits of the winter range carrying capacity, we might need a new recovery strategy sooner then we'd like.

[kenkell1]

6616, that is one of the most intelligent posts on this whole issue that I have read to date.
Thank you for that.

[budismyhorse]

6616: ".............he merely did what they told him to do!"

Further to that, he made that decision based on the numbers presented to him by his staff working under him.....numbers that since then have been considered suspect.

there were MANY people responsible for that decision, he was the unfortunate person with his name attached to it.

It likely should be the MOE Era at the time that gets scrutinized not the man himself. My opinion.

[Schutzen]

6616, that is one of the most intelligent posts on this whole issue that I have read to date.
Thank you for that.

I'll echo that sentiment...good post 6616.

[Timbow]

WE are the elk hunters of region 4 regardless of home addresses. WE who have seen mismanagemnet of the herds with 1000's of antlerless tags given out without any solicitation of opinion, turning it from a 3pt season to a 6 point season without discussion, decimating the moose population with their "attempt" to balance cow/calf numbers.

WE who have seen decisions made to satisfy Guide/Outfitters, Ranchers, and every other sort of industry that is willing to do the Government favours..

WE are the people who care about the elk management in the Kootenays (East and West) and want any changes done with careful consideration, not just "no conservation concern" statement....

There, does that clear it up????????...I knew someone would try to psychobabblerap my statement when I posted it, just was not sure who it would be.....


Well maybe next time, think before sending out a message so someone won't "psychobabblerap" your message. Your response has more clarity, although I think you re-wrote it to apease people like me who take offense to statements like the one you made.

[rocksteady]

I put WE in the post and instantly you jump on my frame about Out of Zone Hunters and try to read between the lines, if I was against out of region hunters I would say it!!!...Maybe you should talk to your Doc about upping your paranoia meds...

[Timbow]

I put WE in the post and instantly you jump on my frame about Out of Zone Hunters and try to read between the lines, if I was against out of region hunters I would say it!!!...Maybe you should talk to your Doc about upping your paranoia meds...

Not if it's the same s**t you're on dude!

Cheers

[rocksteady]

Great comeback......:tongue::tongue:

[rocksteady]

Man, when are you going to realize that simply living in one region does give you ownership over the elk. .Well maybe next time, think before sending out a message so someone won't "psychobabblerap" your message

Maybe You want to re-read your own quote and take heed of your own advice......:eek::eek:

[horshur]

I've been listening to you good folks speak about the mistakes of "poor ole Ray" for many years now (I'm not singling you out Deaddog) and it continues to bother me that he has personally taken the rap for the mistakes of the past. He did not do this on his own, the cattlemen's lobby had the biggest influence and Ray was ordered by Victoria in 1984 to lower the elk population in the EK by 10,000 head ASAP. Let's stop blaming and scape-goating him for this, he just carried out orders handed down to him from HQ, he merely did what they told him to do!

The continued decline of elk into the '90s well after the antlerless tags were reduced, was due to the fact that the population was decreased too rapidly, throwing the prey predator balance out of whack and we got caught in a predator pit situation. Any one from the EK will verify the high level of wolf predation on elk, and the high level of bear predation on calf elk during the 90's.

I agree, it was a deplorable chain of events culminating with the winter kill of 96/97, and the single largest contributing factor was probably not considering the effects of the prey/predator relationship, and I believe any biologist would have fallen into the same trap because wolves were practically unheard of in the EK in the early '80's except for a few in the National Parks. I don't think we should blame anyone in particular for the unprecedented and sudden growth of the wolf population and it's effects on the elk herd.

The 6pt season was initiated as a component of the recovery strategy that the 2000 to 2004 elk management plan was, and although it really wasn't the key factor in the eventual recovery it was part of the overall solution. It's plain that we no longer need to manage elk in the EK on a recovery strategy. That being said, if we do not bring the elk population down to within the limits of the winter range carrying capacity, we might need a new recovery strategy sooner then we'd like.

here is what I think...your posts show that some good people are at the helm much more qualified than some keyboard jockey like me. I feel the Elk are in good hands.

[6616]

I feel the Elk are in good hands.

I feel the same way.

[hunter1947]

Were I hunt in region 4-4 I never heard wolfs howling before in the earlier years when hunting my area and this goes back 39 years ago. In the last 3 years I have hear them in packs calling out in different places were I hunt.. I have seen more wolf tracks in the area I hunt in the last 3 years then ever. That goes for cougars as well my hunting partner has seen two cats in that area in the last two years as well as for black bears and grizzlies. There are no low numbers of predators in the area I hunt ,thats for sure.. I'm sure that the rebound of elk ,whitetail and mule deer is the reason for the increase of more predators.

[Deaddog]

"I've been listening to you good folks speak about the mistakes of "poor ole Ray" for many years now (I'm not singling you out Deaddog)"

Quote:
Originally Posted by rocksteady http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/showthread.php?p=257439#post257439)
Have you spoken with Garth Mowat yet to see why he doesn't feel there is a conservation concern? Fisher-Dude

Originally Posted by Fisher-Dude http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/showthread.php?p=257217#post257217)
The elk belong to and are hunted by all the people of BC, not just those residing in Region 4.


Lets put this in plain ole black and white.....

WE IN THE REGION 4 AREA GOT SCREWED BACK IN THE 1980/90'S BY A CERTAIN BIOLOGIST NAMED DEMARCHI AND WE DON'T WANT TO SEE IT HAPPEN AGAIN.

Garth may be a hellofa smart guy, but he has to prove that he is smarter and more honest than old Ray was.

We are posting our comments regarding the changes, for the people of the whole province, to guarantee that there will be elk to hunt in the future...

I've known Garth for many years, he doesn't have to prove anything to me, he is honest and forthright, if he states he doesn't have a conservation concern, he will be able to back it up with solid scientific reasoning, I would encourage those questioning his Honesty to speak directly to him. Deaddog


In regards to this quote I apologize if I left the impression that I felt Ray had done ANYTHING wrong, my earlier statement was meant to speak to the credibility of Garth Mowat and that only, the quote I was speaking to was that of another and it made the statement regarding rays honesty ("Garth may be a hellofa smart guy, but he has to prove that he is smarter and more honest than old Ray was), I did and do not know Ray and therefore would not venture any opionion as to his ability more so I am not overly familiar with the kootenays and the issues there,thus for the most part I have stayed out of the discussion, hope this clears any misconceptions regarding my earlier post . Thanks DD

[rocksteady]

So rather than point out specific names of those involved in this, why do we just not go with the generic "government of the day".....

The "government of the day" in the 80/90's did not have the best interest in wildlife management in mind.....

Hopefully the "government of the day" as of today will consider appropriate wildlife management prior to instituting changes....

There, now that gets Ray and Garth, off the hook...

[6616]

Were I hunt in region 4-4 I never heard wolfs howling before in the earlier years when hunting my area and this goes back 39 years ago. In the last 3 years I have hear them in packs calling out in different places were I hunt.. I have seen more wolf tracks in the area I hunt in the last 3 years then ever. That goes for cougars as well my hunting partner has seen two cats in that area in the last two years as well as for black bears and grizzlies. There are no low numbers of predators in the area I hunt ,thats for sure.. I'm sure that the rebound of elk ,whitetail and mule deer is the reason for the increase of more predators.

It's a smorgesborg down there in 4-03 and 4-04 for wolves. I'll bet in your years of hunting you've also never previously seen white tails in such high numbers. Easy to see the potential to get things out of balance again. Any plan to bring elk numbers within carrying capacity should also include increasing predator harvests.

[rocksteady]

Any plan to bring elk numbers within carrying capacity should also include increasing predator harvests.


I agree with you on this...

Wolf is open year round under 1100 metres (trench bottom) Works for me...

Coyote is only open from September 10 to March 31....Stupid....Have them open year round and maybe we could put a dent in the population and save a few more ungulates from being munched on...

[6616]

I agree with you on this...

Wolf is open year round under 1100 metres (trench bottom) Works for me...

Coyote is only open from September 10 to March 31....Stupid....Have them open year round and maybe we could put a dent in the population and save a few more ungulates from being munched on...

Also may need to look at the overly conservative cougar quota.

[6616]

I agree with you on this...

Wolf is open year round under 1100 metres (trench bottom) Works for me...

Coyote is only open from September 10 to March 31....Stupid....Have them open year round and maybe we could put a dent in the population and save a few more ungulates from being munched on...


.....but of course all of this only applies should the need arise to reduce ungulate populations. Considering the current conditions with elk and deer numbers in relation to carrying capacity and range conditions, the high predator numbers might actually be saving us from disaster right at the monent.

Additionally there is another factor in all this that we seem unable to impact, and that's forage consumption by domestic livestock on Crown range.

[Kody94]

Also may need to look at the overly conservative cougar quota.

There's one where you might run into an issue with Garth Mowatt. That office seems to think we have already over-done it on the cougars.

[GoatGuy]

There's one where you might run into an issue with Garth Mowatt. That office seems to think we have already over-done it on the cougars.

Don't think it would be that much of an issue so long as the hunters are onboard. Had that conversation a couple weeks ago.

[boxhitch]

Wolf is open year round under 1100 metres (trench bottom) Works for me...

But harvest numbers are very low. Trappers even have a hard time, and there is no incentive to try harder.

[Kody94]

Don't think it would be that much of an issue so long as the hunters are onboard. Had that conversation a couple weeks ago.

That's good to hear. The extent of the discussions I have been privy to were specifically with regard to enhanced predator management in support of caribou recovery. And at that time (since last fall), we were told that liberalizing the cougar limit was just not on. I was disappointed by the response (the lack of discussion), but am not blaming Garth Mowatt...not sure about the politics in that office, and most of my insight on this specific item is second hand. No-one was promoting the carpet bombing of cougars to save caribou, but even a targeted approach seemed off the table for the time being.

Would like to chat with you offline sometime.

Cheers,
4ster

[BCrams]

That's good to hear. The extent of the discussions I have been privy to were specifically with regard to enhanced predator management in support of caribou recovery. And at that time (since last fall), we were told that liberalizing the cougar limit was just not on. I was disappointed by the response (the lack of discussion), but am not blaming Garth Mowatt...not sure about the politics in that office, and most of my insight on this specific item is second hand. No-one was promoting the carpet bombing of cougars to save caribou, but even a targeted approach seemed off the table for the time being.

Would like to chat with you offline sometime.

Cheers,
4ster

They opened the cougar season in 7a in the MU zones where mountain caribou are this year.

[Schutzen]

So rather than point out specific names of those involved in this, why do we just not go with the generic "government of the day".....

The "government of the day" in the 80/90's did not have the best interest in wildlife management in mind.....

Hopefully the "government of the day" as of today will consider appropriate wildlife management prior to instituting changes....

There, now that gets Ray and Garth, off the hook...

In my experience with the Prov. govts. of BC the political expedient always takes precedence over the wildlife/conservation concern.
Here on the Island back in the 70's there was a small area of timber near Gold R. that was vital winter habitat for the deer and Roosevelt Elk. The Fish & Game clubs on the Island united and lobbied long and hard to protect it.
The govt. listened.... then turned the logging Company loose on it.
Bye bye game...winterkill!:mad:
Just one small example out of literally 100's.
Seen it time and again, doubt it will ever change.

[Schutzen]

.....but of course all of this only applies should the need arise to reduce ungulate populations. Considering the current conditions with elk and deer numbers in relation to carrying capacity and range conditions, the high predator numbers might actually be saving us from disaster right at the monent.

Additionally there is another factor in all this that we seem unable to impact, and that's forage consumption by domestic livestock on Crown range.

A little thread hi jack here.

I have wondered many times if I'm the only guy that sees this as a problem! What will it take to put the Cattle guys in line.
As I understand it they do very little for the provs economy and the industry is in tatters? From what I have seen prov wide they pretty much seem to flaunt the regs and laws and get away with it.
So why/how do they hold so much clout? Does anyone know what the BCWF stance on them is?
This has been bugging me for some time now anyone have any ideas how to fix it?

[rocksteady]

[quote=6616;258322A little thread hi jack here.

I have wondered many times if I'm the only guy that sees this as a problem! What will it take to put the Cattle guys in line.
As I understand it they do very little for the provs economy and the industry is in tatters? From what I have seen prov wide they pretty much seem to flaunt the regs and laws and get away with it.
So why/how do they hold so much clout? Does anyone know what the BCWF stance on them is?
This has been bugging me for some time now anyone have any ideas how to fix it?


To get a true answer to this question, as well as some answers you will definitely need to start a new thread and then make sure there is room for 30 pages of comments....

Bottom line - Kootenay Livestock Association/BC Cattlemans association have a long and very powerful history (they can make or break an MLA's career in pretty short order)...You are either willing to go to bat for them, or clean out your office...

Wild west mentally, sort of like electing a sherriff...

IMHO, not really a way to solve it that would be acceptable to the KLA/BCCA without major political sh*tstorm....


I do not think the BCWF could hold a candle to their political clout...

[bayou]

cougars have been over harvested in various parts of the kootenays, im guessing this was the reasoning for the lower quota which wasnt really that much and in my opinion should have been lower, but then this thread is kinda jumping from wk elk to ek zones to caribou problems.

[hunter1947]

It's a smorgesborg down there in 4-03 and 4-04 for wolves. I'll bet in your years of hunting you've also never previously seen white tails in such high numbers. Easy to see the potential to get things out of balance again. Any plan to bring elk numbers within carrying capacity should also include increasing predator harvests.
The whitetail deer did drop off big time after the bad winter of 1996 ,I no a trapper in that area Phil Bradshaw ,he said the next year 1997 there were dead whitetail deer carcases every were. Whitetail deer reproduce faster then any other big game animal that I know. Now in the last few years there are a stable population of whitetail once again . That goes for elk as well. Mule deer are still on the low list as for moose . They allow way to many LEH permits for moose in 4-4 . Where I hunt I used to see 20 moose on a 2 week trip ,now I only see a handful .. Hear on the Island there never was a wolf problem 20 years ago ,its just been in the last 20 years that the wolf has increased to hi numbers hear on vancouver island. The only answer I have for hi population on any predator problem is nature there is a time period for a predator then after a number of years they will dwindle back down to an acceptable level when nature looks after it ,I have to put that one big final word in ,OR MAN...

[Fisher-Dude]

That goes for elk as well. Mule deer are still on the low list as for moose . They allow way to many LEH permits for moose in 4-4 . Where I hunt I used to see 20 moose on a 2 week trip ,now I only see a handful ...

Interesting. Where I hunt, there are moose everywhere. Rarely do I spend a day elk hunting when I'm not treated to the sight of a moose or two or five. It used to be GOS bull moose with twice the hunters for years - and was sustainable too for decades. The spike/fork is a step in the right direction. Hopefully, it's the foot in the door to the return of better moose opportunities for all hunters, not just the lucky 35:1 LEH folks or the rich yanks that get the NR quota.

[kenkell1]

How did we get from the West Kootenay LEH Bull Elk - Poll to moose??

[6616]

WKO sent this letter yesterday. Their position is no changes until a elk management plan is in place.


West Kootenay Outdoorsmen

706 Second Street, Nelson, B.C. V1L 2L9 250-352-5609


March 12, 2008

Dave Dunbar, Head
Fish & Wildlife
Ministry of Environment
205 Industrial Road G.
Cranbrook, B.C. V1C 7G5

Dear Dave:

This is to advise you that the West Kootenay Outdoorsmen desire to have developed an Elk Management Plan for the West Kootenay. Specifically, on March 9th a special West Kootenay Outdoorsmen meeting was held to consider the management of elk in the West Kootenay management units. At that meeting the following motion was passed unanimously:

Moved G. Grunerud, seconded W. Kampen, that the Ministry of Environment be requested to draw up a West Kootenay elk management plan similar to the existing East Kootenay Elk Management Plan to set future direction for elk management in the West Kootenay.

We are anxious for this project to commence and will assist however possible.


Yours in conservation,


Richard Green, President
West Kootenay Outdoorsmen ( BCWF Region 4 West)

Cc: Garth Mowat, MoE Senior Wildlife Biologist, Kootenay Region
Patti MacAhonic, Executive Director, BCWF
Kent Petovello, Regional President, BCWF Region 4 East

[hunter1947]

Sounds to me that they might be considering an open season for WK elk ????

[hunter1947]

Interesting. Where I hunt, there are moose everywhere. Rarely do I spend a day elk hunting when I'm not treated to the sight of a moose or two or five. It used to be GOS bull moose with twice the hunters for years - and was sustainable too for decades. The spike/fork is a step in the right direction. Hopefully, it's the foot in the door to the return of better moose opportunities for all hunters, not just the lucky 35:1 LEH folks or the rich yanks that get the NR quota.Maybe there are more predators and a deeper snow fall were I hunt ,thats why.

[6616]

Sounds to me that they might be considering an open season for WK elk ????

Yes, but a very controversial suggestion with some of the WKO clubs.

[hunter1947]

How did we get from the West Kootenay LEH Bull Elk - Poll to moose??
The reason moose got brought into the pic ,deer etc is because if they do open up a season for three points or better in the EK they the elk management has to evaluate the numbers of predators in different areas so the numbers of elk and others won't drop like a rock. Elk can only take so much pressure from hunters and predators befor you have a big problem. If they do get hammered from all sides we are looking back to a low number like 97. Moose have been preshared way to much in 4-4 over the years on LEH ,I just hope that the same won't happen to the elk if they have an LEH draw plus a open 3 point season on them.

[kenkell1]

And thats why I am hoping they don't open a 3 pnt season for Elk for several years.

Predator+harsh winter+open 3pnt= disaster (again)

[BCrams]

And thats why I am hoping they don't open a 3 pnt season for Elk for several years.

Predator+harsh winter+open 3pnt= disaster (again)

I believe the Kootenay elk population is going to face a more detrimental impact if management directives are not in place to reduce the population.

You have to remember, the regulations in place right now were part of a 'recovery strategy'. The recovery phase was successful and it is time to move to a different management approach. This could include a 3 pt season to help maintain the population threshold at and preferably, below carrying capacity. If do not want a population level which exceeds the available food resources and habitat when the going gets tough.

[kenkell1]

Are they above carrying capacity??

[Tinney]

Interesting. Where I hunt, there are moose everywhere. Rarely do I spend a day elk hunting when I'm not treated to the sight of a moose or two or five. It used to be GOS bull moose with twice the hunters for years - and was sustainable too for decades. The spike/fork is a step in the right direction. Hopefully, it's the foot in the door to the return of better moose opportunities for all hunters, not just the lucky 35:1 LEH folks or the rich yanks that get the NR quota.

So you see more moose per day in the WK than most moose hunters in region 7A see per day? I think we better get your 'guide' eastkoot on the phone. I call bee ess.

[hunter1947]

I believe the Kootenay elk population is going to face a more detrimental impact if management directives are not in place to reduce the population.

You have to remember, the regulations in place right now were part of a 'recovery strategy'. The recovery phase was successful and it is time to move to a different management approach. This could include a 3 pt season to help maintain the population threshold at and preferably, below carrying capacity. If do not want a population level which exceeds the available food resources and habitat when the going gets tough. the places I hunt in 4-4 have lots of habitat for the elk deer family , I don't believe that there is a low habitat in the higher elevations . In low line areas yes ,reason being is that the deer elk have to compete in the winter months with cattle. If elk and deer do die from starvation in the low line areas of there winter ground thats the way nature balances the population.

[hunter1947]

And thats why I am hoping they don't open a 3 pnt season for Elk for several years.

Predator+harsh winter+open 3pnt= disaster (again)
You got that right .....

[hunter1947]

So you see more moose per day in the WK than most moose hunters in region 7A see per day? I think we better get your 'guide' eastkoot on the phone. I call bee ess.
I second that ,,,,,,thats my opinion :lol:.

[Fisher-Dude]

So you see more moose per day in the WK than most moose hunters in region 7A see per day? I think we better get your 'guide' eastkoot on the phone. I call bee ess.

Duh. When you have a HUGE, rugged MU with a harvest of about 20-30 moose a year from LEH and NRs, you see tonnes of moose compared to 7A with loads of LEH, GOS spike fork and calves, and a significant First Nations harvest (not much of a factor where I hunt - never seen a single FN hunter in 30 years).

But what do you know - by your own admission, you're a fish guy.

[sealevel]

The northern WK has one of the biggest moose herds in the prov.

[Kody94]

Duh. When you have a HUGE, rugged MU with a harvest of about 20-30 moose a year from LEH and NRs, you see tonnes of moose compared to 7A with loads of LEH, GOS spike fork and calves, and a significant First Nations harvest (not much of a factor where I hunt - never seen a single FN hunter in 30 years).

But what do you know - by your own admission, you're a fish guy.

To be fair, F-D, there isn't all that many places in the EK where you will see multiple moose every day.

I sure see a lot more moose now than 10 years ago though. Looking forward to seeing some study results (which I am not too familiar with but hear are coming).

Cheers
4ster

[muzzy]

Just an observation from looking into this site and reading the posts about hunter recruitment and elk hunting in general re: East and West Kootenays.. There seems to be a big push for the resident opportunities and those that are pro opportunity seem to begrudge the guides and non-res. hunters, FD probably the most with his snide remarks about guides and their clients. We're all in this together and someone who makes their living hunting and those that bring millions of dollars to this Province may just help save the sky from falling. And Mr. B, if you're getting paid good Gov't money to fish on a website, you need to find a better way to obtain a reputation as a bio..

[BCrams]

Originally Posted by kenkell1 http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/showthread.php?p=258784#post258784)
And thats why I am hoping they don't open a 3 pnt season for Elk for several years.

Predator+harsh winter+open 3pnt= disaster (again)




You got that right .....

Tell me how you two figure on this?

Indeed the elk population has reached the threshold. What is your solution to prevent a die off from happening because you want to keep the elk numbers increasing? Or from having a negative impact on bighorn sheep? or deer on the winter range?

[spock]

I wonder if changing the 8-15 LEH for elk to a split 3 point only draw for two weeks followed by a 6 point GOS was done to assess how it might work in one MU before trying it in the west kootenays, they are right next door after all.

[hunter1947]

Originally Posted by kenkell1 http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/showthread.php?p=258784#post258784)
And thats why I am hoping they don't open a 3 pnt season for Elk for several years.

Predator+harsh winter+open 3pnt= disaster (again)





Tell me how you two figure on this?

Indeed the elk population has reached the threshold. What is your solution to prevent a die off from happening because you want to keep the elk numbers increasing? Or from having a negative impact on bighorn sheep? or deer on the winter range?
BC Ram nature will look after itself ,just like you see in Africa ,millions of people are dieing off because of hunger ,that is how nature controls the number of species when anything gets out of control. Why go gun ho on killing every thing off in a few years buy opening up a 3 point season when we can control it to fit our needs ????. Elk deer ,sheep ,etc all fit into this category. When the EK have a bad winter and there due to have one soon it will depopulate the elk as well. Predators will increase as the population of others get to hi numbers ,then once they the hi numbers of cats ,wolves ,whatever they are will stat dropping off because the food chain wont be as abundant anymore. You got to tale the hole circle into consideration hear ,hunting presser ,open amount of days for elk ,LEH for elk ,winter kills ,habitat at low elevations ,cafe recruitment in the fall ,pouching ,UN train kills ,etc. Then on top of it all if they the elk management decide to open up a 3 point season for the next years to come it only takes a blast from mother nature to take the numbers back down to were we were 11 years ago ,a lot of you don't realize how close we came to having an LEH only for elk in the EK after the bad winter of 96. When we do have a bad winter all animals feel the effect. Think about it where ever they have opened up an LEH region for a certain animal species ,have they ever taken it back off of the LEH ,someone show me some figures where they have have taken LEH off ,if they have its been done very little. Look back on my past posts on this issue what I have said on my thoughts for a season for elk that will work for the meat hunter and the trophy hunter and keep the elk at a healthy number ,thats the way have to do it ,thats my opinion and I'm sticking with it.http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/images/icons/icon12.gif http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/images/icons/icon7.gif.

[hunter1947]

The northern WK has one of the biggest moose herds in the prov.
Then why don't they take it off LEH ??:???:??,you tell me why if it is one of the most poulated areas for moose??:-???

[hunter1947]

To be fair, F-D, there isn't all that many places in the EK where you will see multiple moose every day.

I sure see a lot more moose now than 10 years ago though. Looking forward to seeing some study results (which I am not too familiar with but hear are coming).

Cheers
4ster
I'm sure some regions in the EK and the WK have got better numbers then others ,there are areas where the numbers have fallen because of lack of knolegable management. one being my area ,I have not changed my pattern on hunting for animals ,I still cover the ground I did back 20 years ago and I have only seen a handful of what I used to see why is this someone tell me ???.

[hunter1947]

Duh. When you have a HUGE, rugged MU with a harvest of about 20-30 moose a year from LEH and NRs, you see tonnes of moose compared to 7A with loads of LEH, GOS spike fork and calves, and a significant First Nations harvest (not much of a factor where I hunt - never seen a single FN hunter in 30 years).

But what do you know - by your own admission, you're a fish guy.
FD have you ever thought that the area you hunt have a higher population of moose then others ,thats why you have 20 ,30 LEH draws for the area you hunt ,thats why you see lots of moose then in other regions. Go to a region were there are very little moose ,your lucky to see one.:lol:.

[hunter1947]

Just an observation from looking into this site and reading the posts about hunter recruitment and elk hunting in general re: East and West Kootenays.. There seems to be a big push for the resident opportunities and those that are pro opportunity seem to begrudge the guides and non-res. hunters, FD probably the most with his snide remarks about guides and their clients. We're all in this together and someone who makes their living hunting and those that bring millions of dollars to this Province may just help save the sky from falling. And Mr. B, if you're getting paid good Gov't money to fish on a website, you need to find a better way to obtain a reputation as a bio..
Aliens bringing in dollars to our BC area are low ,I did a steady about 12 years ago on the revenue that aliens bring into BC for hunting ,we the BC residence bring in 6 to 1 what they the nonresidents do.

[Fisher-Dude]

BC Ram nature will look after itself ,just like you see in Africa ,millions of people are dieing off because of hunger ,that is how nature controls the number of species when anything gets out of control. Why go gun ho on killing every thing off in a few years buy opening up a 3 point season when we can control it to fit our needs ????. Elk deer ,sheep ,etc all fit into this category. When the EK have a bad winter and there due to have one soon it will depopulate the elk as well. Predators will increase as the population of others get to hi numbers ,then once they the hi numbers of cats ,wolves ,whatever they are will stat dropping off because the food chain wont be as abundant anymore. You got to tale the hole circle into consideration hear ,hunting presser ,open amount of days for elk ,LEH for elk ,winter kills ,habitat at low elevations ,cafe recruitment in the fall ,pouching ,UN train kills ,etc. Then on top of it all if they the elk management decide to open up a 3 point season for the next years to come it only takes a blast from mother nature to take the numbers back down to were we were 11 years ago ,a lot of you don't realize how close we came to having an LEH only for elk in the EK after the bad winter of 96. When we do have a bad winter all animals feel the effect.

So what I get from your post is that you would rather see a big die off of animals due to starvation in a hard winter (ie "nature looking after itself") than utilize the resource for hunting opportunities to keep the herd at a sustainable level.

Here's a simplistic set of numbers used to illustrate what would happen - I'm not saying these are the finite numbers, but they do represent the point BCRams, 6616, GG and I are making...6616 explained it better in an earlier post:

Scenario 1:
We can increase harvest from 800 up to 1400 bull elk with a 3 point GOS
Over a number of years, the population can then go from 32K elk to 25K - 27K elk, which is about carrying capacity
We can then have a hard winter and the die off will result in a herd of 23K elk because there is ample feed due to being below carrying capacity

Scenario 2:
We can maintain a harvest of 800 bull elk with 6 point GOS
Over a number of years, the population will be at about 32K - 36K elk
We can then have a bad winter and the die off will result in a herd of 15K elk because there is insufficient feed due to being above carrying capacity


So in Scenario 1, we get increased harvest AND less of a die off with a harsh winter, while in Scenario 2 we get less harvest AND a BIG die off because more elk will starve to death when they are over carrying capacity.

Which Scenario would you rather see? I'll go for Scenario 1.

[hunter1947]

I would like to see a season open for elk that is not going to hurt the population in anyway further down the road. FD your theory on 800 to 1400 bull elk being harvest how do you no that ????. If they open up a 3 point better season you will have every tom dick and harry headed to the Ek for bull elk season ,then you figure of 1400 elk taken have become 3 times that amount. How can anyone tell how many hunters will be there if they do open up a 3 point season ,it would be a slaughter house. Hunters now that don't go there because of the 6 will be there for sure. I'm in favor to have a hi elk population other then a average amount. Its better to be higher then lower. When a bad winter come ,you or me or anyone else can't do a darn thing when this happens ,its mother natures way. As for elk starving ,thats the way it is in the wild ,the strong that do survive will move on will create strong herds.http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/images/icons/icon7.gif.

[sealevel]

If you just opened up the WK it would be a slaughter . But if you opened the whole prov. to 3 pts at once. No one area will see to much pressure would it.

[islandboy]

I would like to see a season open for elk that is not going to hurt the population in anyway further down the road. FD your theory on 800 to 1400 bull elk being harvest how do you no that ????. If they open up a 3 point better season you will have every tom dick and harry headed to the Ek for bull elk season ,then you figure of 1400 elk taken have become 3 times that amount. How can anyone tell how many hunters will be there if they do open up a 3 point season ,it would be a slaughter house. Hunters now that don't go there because of the 6 will be there for sure. I'm in favor to have a hi elk population other then a average amount. Its better to be higher then lower. When a bad winter come ,you or me or anyone else can't do a darn thing when this happens ,its mother natures way. As for elk starving ,thats the way it is in the wild ,the strong that do survive will move on to create a strong head.http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/images/icons/icon7.gif.
The solution to numbers is a kill report to the local CO. When the numbers have been reached shut the GOS down. Everyone should be made aware of the limit and potential change in closing date. I prefer an old fashioned first come first served approach. The LEH is like putting down a downpayment on your restaurant meal only to have someone else eat it. :lol:

[Fisher-Dude]

I would like to see a season open for elk that is not going to hurt the population in anyway further down the road. FD your theory on 800 to 1400 bull elk being harvest how do you no that ????. If they open up a 3 point better season you will have every tom dick and harry headed to the Ek for bull elk season ,then you figure of 1400 elk taken have become 3 times that amount. How can anyone tell how many hunters will be there if they do open up a 3 point season ,it would be a slaughter house. Hunters now that don't go there because of the 6 will be there for sure. I'm in favor to have a hi elk population other then a average amount. Its better to be higher then lower. When a bad winter come ,you or me or anyone else can't do a darn thing when this happens ,its mother natures way. As for elk starving ,thats the way it is in the wild ,the strong that do survive will move on will create strong herds.http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/images/icons/icon7.gif.

I do know those harvest numbers from what has already been presented here by 6616 and others who have bothered to study harvest stats. Right now, with the 6 point season, we are harvesting 800 - 900 bulls per year. When we had 3 point season (and WAY more hunters!) we harvested an average of 1200 - 1400 bull elk per year. We had similar elk populations in 3 point season to what we have right now as far as numbers go. SO, we KNOW those numbers H47! There is NO research and NO history to verify your claim of a slaughter, but there IS research and history to verify MY numbers. :wink:

[GoatGuy]

BC Ram nature will look after itself ,just like you see in Africa ,millions of people are dieing off because of hunger ,that is how nature controls the number of species when anything gets out of control.

Nature doesn't include few predators, limited habitat and 4 million people fragmenting habitat. That is what conservation is all about. Hunters should be taking care of the harvestable surplus and keeping populations below carrying capacity so that if and when we have a bad winter we don't lose 30+% of the herd. By harvesting wildlife we can minimize the effect of a bad winter.

People dieing in Africa because of hunger has nothing to do with 'nature'. While the rest of us living in a controlled society people in Africa don't have the education or policy makers to prevent 18 year old girls from contracting HIV. I don't think the example's relevant.




Why go gun ho on killing every thing off in a few years buy opening up a 3 point season when we can control it to fit our needs ????. Elk deer ,sheep ,etc all fit into this category. When the EK have a bad winter and there due to have one soon it will depopulate the elk as well. Predators will increase as the population of others get to hi numbers ,then once they the hi numbers of cats ,wolves ,whatever they are will stat dropping off because the food chain wont be as abundant anymore.

That isn't the way things work. We're supposed to control wildlife populations. We will not depopulate the elk population with a 3 pt season. The bull:cow ratio will likely go down but we'll end up loosing the elk to a bad winter and being over carrying capacity way before a 3pt elk season will catch up with us. On an any bull season you will not get control of the elk herd.

Winter kill doesn't work the way you think it does. Here's the simplified analogy I use when I'm teaching.

Carrying capacity

5 animals live in an area with just enough food to get by. As the population grows there isn't enough food for all and the range deteriorates. As the population outgrows it's range productivity goes down - growth rates, birthing rates, and the animal's are generally in poor condition. In BC populations are most often limited by winter range or a lack thereof. That means when they go into the winter with poor range they're already in bad shape. In a bad winter, at or above carrying capacity you will end up killing 2 or 3 animals.

Because range is poor recovery is slow - you need the habitat to make the animals. You'll also have issues with predators and apparent competition because the die-off was so significant. So it takes a lonngggg time to get populations back up.

Below Carrying Capacity

4 animals live in an area with more than enough food to get by. Hunters take the harvestable surplus - range is good. Productivity is high, reproduction rates are high, antler/horn growth as well as health of the herd is good. In a bad winter you'll kill 1 animal as the condition of the winter range is such that food is abundant.

Recovery is swift as habitat is in good condition and lagging dynamics of predator populations don't have nearly as significant impact. Animals twin and populations rebound quickly.



7B is a pretty good example of over-population. With a 30+% die-off they're now managing to keep the population under carrying capacity with a 2 doe GOS, removing the 1 in 2 harvest rule and going to a 3pt or better from a 4 pt or better. Not to mention a pile of changes to elk regulations which will be coming this year - this will likely include a 3pt season.

While hunters think it's great to see lots of bucks/bulls and wildlife it is usually at the expense of the wildlife population. In the long run this comes back to haunt the hunter as winter-kill is far more severe.

Max sus har yield put the perfect population at 50% of carrying capacity. In the EK that would be ~13,000 elk, not 30,000. Hunters always 'manage' overly conservatively and it always comes back to bite them in the but.



You got to tale the hole circle into consideration hear ,hunting presser ,open amount of days for elk ,LEH for elk ,winter kills ,habitat at low elevations ,cafe recruitment in the fall ,pouching ,UN train kills ,etc. Then on top of it all if they the elk management decide to open up a 3 point season for the next years to come it only takes a blast from mother nature to take the numbers back down to were we were 11 years ago ,a lot of you don't realize how close we came to having an LEH only for elk in the EK after the bad winter of 96. When we do have a bad winter all animals feel the effect. Think about it where ever they have opened up an LEH region for a certain animal species ,have they ever taken it back off of the LEH ,someone show me some figures where they have have taken LEH off ,if they have its been done very little. Look back on my past posts on this issue what I have said on my thoughts for a season for elk that will work for the meat hunter and the trophy hunter and keep the elk at a healthy number ,thats the way have to do it ,thats my opinion and I'm sticking with it.http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/images/icons/icon12.gif http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/images/icons/icon7.gif.


This is all wrong.

They haven't opened areas up to GOS because the hunters don't want a GOS for all the reasons you've stated and 9/10 times hunters have been wrong. It's the time hunters are right that they remember and never forget.

Hunter47, I understand seeing lots of elk is great. The wildlife populations we have in BC probably haven't been this high in 25 years, in some places they've never been this high but that isn't necessarily a good thing.

Wildlife needs to be managed. If we don't start taking care of the resource and making sure habitat is good and populations are below carrying capacity we're going to be back at square 1 in a couple of years. The ups and downs aren't preventable but the big crash is - to do that we need to start harvesting animals.


If we don't the next crash will be hunters fault - it already happened in 7B, we'll wait and see what happens in the rest of the province.

[rocksteady]

The solution to numbers is a kill report to the local CO. :lol:


I personally do not see this as an effective data track for the following reasons:

1) In the regs a couple of years ago, it said that any bull taken during the archery only season had to be Compulsory Reported and examined. I got my bull, went to the MOE office, the secretary had never had anyone come to the office before to do a CR..

2) Most CI's (compulsory Inspected) for big game around the province have now gone contract, as CO's do not have the time and or manpower totake on this task.

3) There are a lot of hunters who do their own butchering, at home, that would never even bother getting a CI or CR done, and very little , if any chance of getting caught. Would a CO really spend his time investigating someone for not getting a CI/CR when he has other cases ongoing of poaching ,trafficking, etc etc....I don't think the penalty for failing to do a CR is all that great...

4) Potentially a quick check of commercial butchers records could give an idea of the harvest. They keep track of how many animals per season are brought in, and legally they take note of if its a bull or a cow..They have records of harvest for the past X years, they should be bale to compare that to a new regulation change to see if/ how much the harvest has increased. Would be a minor inconvenience to a butcher, and numbers could be crunched by a clerk at MOE not a Conservation Officer...

[hunter1947]

I do know those harvest numbers from what has already been presented here by 6616 and others who have bothered to study harvest stats. Right now, with the 6 point season, we are harvesting 800 - 900 bulls per year. When we had 3 point season (and WAY more hunters!) we harvested an average of 1200 - 1400 bull elk per year. We had similar elk populations in 3 point season to what we have right now as far as numbers go. SO, we KNOW those numbers H47! There is NO research and NO history to verify your claim of a slaughter, but there IS research and history to verify MY numbers. :wink:
Are you and others willing to take that chance on an open season for 3 points ??? ,with the numbers up in population are you willing to see them the elk be shot off in big numbers just to satisfy your needs and others ,not me ,not this cowboy. I have seen what a 3 point season has done over the past 15 years before they implemented the 6 point season. There was suggestions from the elk management that they were going to open up an LEH season only after the 97 season had closed. Bad winters and hunting presser on top of having a 3 point season over years did not work. Its been been proven in the past that it don't work so why go back to opening a 3 point season ,don't make any sense to me :roll:.

[Fisher-Dude]

I personally do not see this as an effective data track for the following reasons:

1) In the regs a couple of years ago, it said that any bull taken during the archery only season had to be Compulsory Reported and examined. I got my bull, went to the MOE office, the secretary had never had anyone come to the office before to do a CR..

2) Most CI's (compulsory Inspected) for big game around the province have now gone contract, as CO's do not have the time and or manpower totake on this task.

3) There are a lot of hunters who do their own butchering, at home, that would never even bother getting a CI or CR done, and very little , if any chance of getting caught. Would a CO really spend his time investigating someone for not getting a CI/CR when he has other cases ongoing of poaching ,trafficking, etc etc....I don't think the penalty for failing to do a CR is all that great...

4) Potentially a quick check of commercial butchers records could give an idea of the harvest. They keep track of how many animals per season are brought in, and legally they take note of if its a bull or a cow..They have records of harvest for the past X years, they should be bale to compare that to a new regulation change to see if/ how much the harvest has increased. Would be a minor inconvenience to a butcher, and numbers could be crunched by a clerk at MOE not a Conservation Officer...

Well your point 4 totally contradicts your point 3 for starters. If as you say so many people wouldn't report if they butchered their own, how would commercial butchers' records be of any value?

Anyone who has a punched elk tag would also be recorded as such when checked by a CO - a quick computer check would verify a CI or lack thereof. There are poachers who wouldn't CI, but those are the same guys who currently sneak home at midnite with a 5 point in the truck. We can't manage our game on the basis that hunters would all break all the rules - we can only manage our game knowing that the vast majority of hunters are honest and law abiding. Poachers don't give a damn and never will - the rest of us do and will CI if the regs tell us to.

[kutenay]

Just an observation from looking into this site and reading the posts about hunter recruitment and elk hunting in general re: East and West Kootenays.. There seems to be a big push for the resident opportunities and those that are pro opportunity seem to begrudge the guides and non-res. hunters, FD probably the most with his snide remarks about guides and their clients. We're all in this together and someone who makes their living hunting and those that bring millions of dollars to this Province may just help save the sky from falling. And Mr. B, if you're getting paid good Gov't money to fish on a website, you need to find a better way to obtain a reputation as a bio..

Excuse me, pal, but you are not only WRONG in your comments, you are also rather offensive. WE resident hunters OWN this game and guides, who are often Albertans working for American guide-outiftters, like Canadian Mountain Outfitters, who was convicted of Wildlife Offences not long ago, DO NOT HAVE ANY rights here whatsoever.

To even imply that ...non-res. hunters...should have some "right" to a specific share of OUR game when we are limited to LEH is almost beyond belief. I do NOT want ANY more non-res. hunting, of any kind, in B.C. and that is that, I have had enough of foreigners telling me what I can or cannot have in MY province.

It is a long, expensive drive to the WK to hunt and I prefer Elk hunting and Elk meat to any other; consequently, the WK Elk as well as all other B.C. wildlife MUST be managed for the benefit of B.C. residents ONLY, to h*ll with anyone else.

There is NO valid reason to allow any non-res. hunting/fishing in B.C., the limits now are so low that we can no longer regularly eat Trout, Steelhead, Kokanee and wild meat as we traditionally have.....end of story.

[GoatGuy]

Aliens bringing in dollars to our BC area are low ,I did a steady about 12 years ago on the revenue that aliens bring into BC for hunting ,we the BC residence bring in 6 to 1 what they the nonresidents do.

It isn't 6:1. In 2006 residents spent around $70M and non-res $46M. GDP for res was $29M and non-res was $19M. It's more like 1.5:1.

Residents bring in far less per person than non-residents.

Also, economically, residents don't bring any money in. What we spend in our province isn't new money - it's essentially another form of taxation that we spend where we want.

Aliens bring more per day and per person than we do and what we bring in in the scope of the economy is a drop in the bucket. Non-res also bring in out of province and out of country money which creates more jobs and spin-offs than what residents contribute. They employ about 25% more people than residents do through their $$


Last year resident licenses increased 4.5% while non-resident increased close to 15%. Resident licenses have been on the decline since 1990. Non-res canadian are up 40% since 1997 and non-res alien are up 33% over the same period.


Long and the short of it is we (resident hunters) aren't a major force with the $ we bring in. Resident hunter numbers are on the way down, non-res are on the way up. Non-res could also pay more. Hope this helps.

[rocksteady]

Well your point 4 totally contradicts your point 3 for starters. If as you say so many people wouldn't report if they butchered their own, how would commercial butchers' records be of any value?

Anyone who has a punched elk tag would also be recorded as such when checked by a CO - a quick computer check would verify a CI or lack thereof. There are poachers who wouldn't CI, but those are the same guys who currently sneak home at midnite with a 5 point in the truck. We can't manage our game on the basis that hunters would all break all the rules - we can only manage our game knowing that the vast majority of hunters are honest and law abiding. Poachers don't give a damn and never will - the rest of us do and will CI if the regs tell us to.



You totally misunderstood the point I was getting at.....

Follow me now....

Under the 6 point season 800 bulls are shot in a year...from butchers records.....Lets say 10% are home chopped or middle of the night runs....Total of 880

Under the 3 pt season 1500 bulls are killed...Still assume 10% home chopped....Total of 1650



The point I was trying to make is that most hunters who take it to butchers will stay that way, those who home chop, same thing...So the ratio, if it stayed tyhe same MAY be abetter indication of harvest than instituting a CI or CR beaurocratic process.....

[kutenay]

It is NOT important WHAT non-res. rich fatcats bring or do not bring to B.C.; some things should NOT be for sale. WHY should ANY B.Cer have to wait to "draw" an Elk tag ANYWHERE in this province when a foreigner can pay an American-owned GO outfit big bux to shoot OUR Elk?

We have consistently practically GIVEN away our resources in B.C., the disgraceful "Columbia River Treaty" is a particularly galling example, since we are discussing the Kootenays and I think that it is time to practice far better conservation of OUR resources for OURSELVES.

[hunter1947]

It isn't 6:1. In 2006 residents spent around $70M and non-res $46M. GDP for res was $29M and non-res was $19M. It's more like 1.5:1.

Residents bring in far less per person than non-residents.

Also, economically, residents don't bring any money in. What we spend in our province isn't new money - it's essentially another form of taxation that we spend where we want.

Aliens bring more per day and per person than we do and what we bring in in the scope of the economy is a drop in the bucket. Non-res also bring in out of province and out of country money which creates more jobs and spin-offs than what residents contribute. They employ about 25% more people than residents do through their $$


Last year resident licenses increased 4.5% while non-resident increased close to 15%. Resident licenses have been on the decline since 1990. Non-res canadian are up 40% since 1997 and non-res alien are up 33% over the same period.


Long and the short of it is we (resident hunters) aren't a major force with the $ we bring in. Resident hunter numbers are on the way down, non-res are on the way up. Non-res could also pay more. Hope this helps. Well with this new quot on revenue being up for nonresident since 1990 ,the six point season has been working since they introduced it. The figures I got back through the 80ties it showed residence hunters bringing in 6 to 1 over the nonresident hunters.

[GoatGuy]

Well with this new quot on revenue being up for nonresident since 1990 ,the six point season has been working since they introduced it. The figures I got back through the 80ties it showed residence hunters bringing in 6 to 1 over the nonresident hunters.

That was before we decided to kill off hunters and grow trophy bucks/bulls.:lol:

I hope the relationship between 'quality' animals and decline in resident participation/numbers and increase in non-resident participation is abundantly clear.


The six point was a recovery strategy and it worked well. As a management tool the elk herd has outgrown it's usefulness. Time for change.

[hunter1947]

You totally misunderstood the point I was getting at.....

Follow me now....

Under the 6 point season 800 bulls are shot in a year...from butchers records.....Lets say 10% are home chopped or middle of the night runs....Total of 880

Under the 3 pt season 1500 bulls are killed...Still assume 10% home chopped....Total of 1650



The point I was trying to make is that most hunters who take it to butchers will stay that way, those who home chop, same thing...So the ratio, if it stayed tyhe same MAY be abetter indication of harvest than instituting a CI or CR beaurocratic process..... Mike you left out about the number of hunters that will take advantage of the 3 point season ,now if you double the amount of hunters or more that will head to the EK ,in my thoughts I know that is what will happen ,you are looking at 3,300 bulls harvest in a calender year. How many years can the elk take under these circumstances and having a few dad winters to boot as for others factors like the LEH for cows the 10 day season for cow elk for 65 years or older.

[rocksteady]

Fisher Dude, Goat Guy and BCRams:

Just to reiterate why we are apprehensive of any significant changes to regulations:

"WE are the elk hunters of region 4 regardless of home addresses. WE who have seen mismanagemnet of the herds with 1000's of antlerless tags given out without any solicitation of opinion, turning it from a 3pt season to a 6 point season without discussion, decimating the moose population with their "attempt" to balance cow/bull ratios.

WE who have seen decisions made to satisfy Guide/Outfitters, Ranchers, and every other sort of industry that is willing to do the Government favours..

WE are the people who care about the elk management in the Kootenays (East and West) and want any changes done with careful consideration, not just "no conservation concern" statement...."

If those concerned about elk management did not care about anything but themselves, they would jump all over the changes like a fat kid onto a errant smartie....For Example: 1947 could come up and in 3 days smack a 3 and go home...He would love that BUT, he has more of an interest in sustainable elk management, even if lower odds of success, because in the long run it is good for the herds, not good for him....

You can post all of the scientific data you want, but as one who is schooled in statistical data (by no means saying I am an expert, but have a basic understanding and comprehension of how it works and can be manipulated), the data can be skewed by so many hidden scenarios, as well as how the data is collected and analyzed, that in reality it could be far away from reality.....

Do you think that true scientific data was used to issue 1000's of antlerless tags in the 80/90's, with the knowledge tha IF a bad winter occurred their could be a devestating die off?? I would hope that someone, at that time, would have said "okay, the data says we can issue 8000 tags in the trench, but if we get a bad winter, we could lose 50% of the animals, so lets be a little cautious and issue 5000 and re-evaluate"...I don't think that occurred....

Scientific data is a great thing but should not be taken as verbatim and the one and only solution..


I understand the 3 of you are passionate about "hunter recruitment and opportunites" but at what cost??? Are you willing to put the elk population of the East and West Kootenays on the line, hoping that all things fall perfectly into alignment??

Hunter recruitment, increased harvest, more feed for those remaining, with the clause that if we get a bad winter, the elk would actually be better off???

I and others are not willing to go "ALL IN", rather we want to ante up and see what the next hand (season) tells....

Just on a side note: Did not all of the scientific studies in the 60's say that Thalidimide was a great thing for morning sickness in pregnant sickness.....

Scientific data will not help history from repeating itself...

[kutenay]

I think that the REAL answer is to have BOTH the 3-point season, say a two week one in early Sept. AND to push hard for major habitat enhancement. I know the Kootenay bush pretty well, especially the WK Elk country and as with Mulies there, a lot of the problem has been due to forest ingrowth and consequent loss of food production.

I would LOVE to see a LOT of big fires, starting about Sept. 1 and allowed to run until snowfall extinguishes them, that is what was done by aboriginals and it worked. Mind you, the "experts" who commute to work in SUVs and hate the natural Earth-harvesting lifestyle would likely crap themselves over "global warming" or maybe "air pollution" ....SUVs don't produce this, ya know.......

Feom the east side of Kootenay Lake, over to Next Creek, the Salmo-Erie-Lost-Bayonne-Blazed Creek areas, to the South Slocan, over to Rossland and across the Blue-Paulsen into the Boundary country and up the Arrow Lakes, this would do a h*ll of a lot to enhance Elk habitat and thus increase the population.

We also need to kill MORE Black Bears, Coyotes and keep the Wolves very rare; I will hunt-shoot 2 Black Bears this spring, first in over 40 years, for this reason and am going to apply for a Grizzly draw as well. We CAN do a lot by hunting predators HARD and lobbying for habitat enhancement, IMHO.

[bighornbob]

I have seen what a 3 point season has done over the past 15 years before they implemented the 6 point season.


I never named called before on this site but are you a Moron or just not want to remember the thousands of LEH's tags given out. For christ sakes they gave away 1200 calf tags in one unit in one LEH year, plus a couple hundred cow/calf tags plus a 3 point season for 2.5 months. This went on for a few years, And no one from the "6 point only season" brings it up. You guys keep harping on the 3 point season.

These are unrefutable facts on how many LEH's were given out. Maybe if unrefutable fatcs aren't your thing here's something that a lot of guys on here take as the word of god and that is hearing from another hunter on what he saw or heard. In the those glory years of LEH's tags, I hunted the area, my family had a pocket full of flat top LEH's. We would go into the Bull River area and see meat poles that needed to be rienforced because there were so many cows and calfs hanging. I dont remember seeing a bull hanging in any camp we stopped by it was all flat tops. But according to you and another half dozen guys the reason for the elk collapse is the 3 point season.

I have posted up a half dozen times that there were thousands of LEH's given out and you and others keep bringing up the 3 point season and the bad winter as the reason for the elk collapse. None of you have addressed the thousands of LEH's tags as being at any fault for the elk collapse. "It's the dammed 3 point season and a couple of bad winters that killed off the elk"

Nobody on this site has suggested we go back to the thousands of LEH's tags but to open a 3 point seaon (which let me remind you was very sustainable before they threw in thousands of LEH's tags for years).... Oh and (I dont think anyone has mentioned this before:rolleyes:) there were half as many hunters as there is today.

BHB

[GoatGuy]

Fisher Dude, Goat Guy and BCRams:

Just to reiterate why we are apprehensive of any significant changes to regulations:

"WE are the elk hunters of region 4 regardless of home addresses. WE who have seen mismanagemnet of the herds with 1000's of antlerless tags given out without any solicitation of opinion, turning it from a 3pt season to a 6 point season without discussion, decimating the moose population with their "attempt" to balance cow/bull ratios.

WE who have seen decisions made to satisfy Guide/Outfitters, Ranchers, and every other sort of industry that is willing to do the Government favours..

WE are the people who care about the elk management in the Kootenays (East and West) and want any changes done with careful consideration, not just "no conservation concern" statement...."

If those concerned about elk management did not care about anything but themselves, they would jump all over the changes like a fat kid onto a errant smartie....For Example: 1947 could come up and in 3 days smack a 3 and go home...He would love that BUT, he has more of an interest in sustainable elk management, even if lower odds of success, because in the long run it is good for the herds, not good for him....

You can post all of the scientific data you want, but as one who is schooled in statistical data (by no means saying I am an expert, but have a basic understanding and comprehension of how it works and can be manipulated), the data can be skewed by so many hidden scenarios, as well as how the data is collected and analyzed, that in reality it could be far away from reality.....

Do you think that true scientific data was used to issue 1000's of antlerless tags in the 80/90's, with the knowledge tha IF a bad winter occurred their could be a devestating die off?? I would hope that someone, at that time, would have said "okay, the data says we can issue 8000 tags in the trench, but if we get a bad winter, we could lose 50% of the animals, so lets be a little cautious and issue 5000 and re-evaluate"...I don't think that occurred....

Scientific data is a great thing but should not be taken as verbatim and the one and only solution..


I understand the 3 of you are passionate about "hunter recruitment and opportunites" but at what cost??? Are you willing to put the elk population of the East and West Kootenays on the line, hoping that all things fall perfectly into alignment??

Hunter recruitment, increased harvest, more feed for those remaining, with the clause that if we get a bad winter, the elk would actually be better off???

I and others are not willing to go "ALL IN", rather we want to ante up and see what the next hand (season) tells....

Just on a side note: Did not all of the scientific studies in the 60's say that Thalidimide was a great thing for morning sickness in pregnant sickness.....

Scientific data will not help history from repeating itself...

Don't worry, once the results of the flights come out I think you'll be far more at ease about things.

You guys are lucky that they spent $ on chopper time this year - other regions aren't as fortunate to have $ to do this kind of inventory work. The people who were flying and observing are people I trust - if that helps any.

[hunter1947]

I will never be at ease when it comes to elk being managed ,Its like stocking a bull elk ,your never at ease.

[kutenay]

My experience in the EK tends to strongly support BHB's position and many people I knew there used to say exactly the same thing. But, I don't think anyone here is a ...moron... and we all have a deep and genuine interest in and concern for OUR wildlife, thank God.

This site has some of, actually MORE, really good and knowledgable folks on it than anywhere, so, let's TRY to be patient....hard, I know, being the orneriest old phart of all!

[GoatGuy]

Mike you left out about the number of hunters that will take advantage of the 3 point season ,now if you double the amount of hunters or more that will head to the EK ,in my thoughts I know that is what will happen ,you are looking at 33000 bulls harvest in a calender year.


I think you meant 3300.

Do you believe the number of hunters will double and the success rate will remain the exact same?

[hunter1947]

I never named called before on this site but are you a Moron or just not want to remember the thousands of LEH's tags given out. For christ sakes they gave away 1200 calf tags in one unit in one LEH year, plus a couple hundred cow/calf tags plus a 3 point season for 2.5 months. This went on for a few years, And no one from the "6 point only season" brings it up. You guys keep harping on the 3 point season.

These are unrefutable facts on how many LEH's were given out. Maybe if unrefutable fatcs aren't your thing here's something that a lot of guys on here take as the word of god and that is hearing from another hunter on what he saw or heard. In the those glory years of LEH's tags, I hunted the area, my family had a pocket full of flat top LEH's. We would go into the Bull River area and see meat poles that needed to be rienforced because there were so many cows and calfs hanging. I dont remember seeing a bull hanging in any camp we stopped by it was all flat tops. But according to you and another half dozen guys the reason for the elk collapse is the 3 point season.

I have posted up a half dozen times that there were thousands of LEH's given out and you and others keep bringing up the 3 point season and the bad winter as the reason for the elk collapse. None of you have addressed the thousands of LEH's tags as being at any fault for the elk collapse. "It's the dammed 3 point season and a couple of bad winters that killed off the elk"

Nobody on this site has suggested we go back to the thousands of LEH's tags but to open a 3 point seaon (which let me remind you was very sustainable before they threw in thousands of LEH's tags for years).... Oh and (I dont think anyone has mentioned this before:rolleyes:) there were half as many hunters as there is today.

BHB BHB ,I dont like being called a moron on this site ,if you read the rules of the site its not allowable a ban could be in place for calling me a moron and I'm not a moron. I never mentioned about anything about being behind a LEH draw for cow elk ,Me I'm against the LEH draw far cow elk ,in a lot of cases cow that give berth in the spring time give berth to 2 calves when you kill a cow you are sometimes killing 3 with one shot. They the elk management that have a problem with an abundance of cow elk should relocate them to areas that need them. As for you saying cows hung up all over the place ,the reason behind that is that the cow to bull numbers were out of whack because the elk management dident manage the regions in a proper manner. As for a 3 point season i seen what it did over the years ,it did not work out so changes had to be made. :lol: :lol: :lol:.

[rocksteady]

hard, I know, being the orneriest old phart of all!


Sorry Kootenay, you can not take that title without us having a well thought out POLL question being posted for all members to vote on....

First of all we have to clarify what "OLD" is?? Over 40, 50, 60

Second, we have to come to a common agreement of "orneriest"

Third, Definition of "phart"

Fourth, definition of all...Is that just on this site, just in BC, in Canada, the world ???? And is there a time limit Phart of the 70's, 80's, 90's, 20th century???


Food for thought......Just wondering, cause 1947 and I are both interested in that title....:mrgreen::mrgreen:

[rocksteady]

The people who were flying and observing are people I trust - if that helps any.

Like I said previous, if you wish to go all in, thats fine, but I am not....

A persons reputation and intelligence may not be reflected in the decision made by a Government agency.......

Are the people flying actually Biologists or just volunteers from Non Government Agencies that are willing to count elk.......Don't know if I would trust a volunterr from teh KLA to count proper...

[rocksteady]

I never named called before on this site but are you a Moron
BHB


BIGHORNBOB - Read and play by the rules, all you are doing is showing true colors...

[hunter1947]

I do know those harvest numbers from what has already been presented here by 6616 and others who have bothered to study harvest stats. Right now, with the 6 point season, we are harvesting 800 - 900 bulls per year. When we had 3 point season (and WAY more hunters!) we harvested an average of 1200 - 1400 bull elk per year. We had similar elk populations in 3 point season to what we have right now as far as numbers go. SO, we KNOW those numbers H47! There is NO research and NO history to verify your claim of a slaughter, but there IS research and history to verify MY numbers. :wink: Regarding there is no history to verify your claim of a slaughter. I don't need to verify a slaughter on elk in the past ,i seen it done and thats verifies its self.

[hunter1947]

BIGHORNBOB - Read and play by the rules, all you are doing is showing true colors...
Thanks Mike I needed that.

[rocksteady]

Thanks Mike I needed that.


No need to have this get personal...Its about elk, not people....:shock:

[budismyhorse]

I think you meant 3300.

Do you believe the number of hunters will double and the success rate will remain the exact same?

Interesting question,

What is your opinion on this....??

My guess is the number of hunters would increase marginally, but not double. The success rate on a 2 week 3pt season including the trench and high elevation.....the success rate would increase substantially.

[bighornbob]

BIGHORNBOB - Read and play by the rules, all you are doing is showing true colors...

Showing my true colors, thats exactly what "6 point only guys" are doing by not wanting to go back to a 3 point season becuase they are thinking about only themselves, "they want a quality hunt".

Answer me this straight up. What was the population of the elk in the early 80's before all the the LEH's tags started being handed out? From what all the literature and experts say, it is about the same as it is now or even less then. So if the population was the same then as it is now and there was a 3 point season back then and there was for a long time before this. Why cant we have a 3 point season now. ???????????????????
?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????

Oh by the way "once again" there is half the hunters.

BHB

[bighornbob]

No need to have this get personal...Its about elk, not people....:shock:

If it's about the elk, shut the season down all together????

BHB

[rocksteady]

Showing my true colors, thats exactly what "6 point only guys" are doing by not wanting to go back to a 3 point season becuase they are thinking about only themselves, "they want a quality hunt".
BHB


In your opinion BOB.....How can you say that that is the feeling of every hunter who is against the 3 pt season....Go back to Post #193 on this thread where I thought I had clarified some of the reasoning we are against the change.....Reread it rather than coming up with your own conclusions....

[rocksteady]

If it's about the elk, shut the season down all together????

BHB

If you look at my quote it says it is about the elk, thats what the thread says, not about arguing, running down others and stooping to calling them MORONS....

If you wish to strat another thread regarding people, have at er.....I will play...

[bighornbob]

If you look at my quote it says it is about the elk, thats what the thread says, not about arguing, running down others and stooping to calling them MORONS....

If you wish to strat another thread regarding people, have at er.....I will play...


You just said, its about the elk. This is an elk topic. You are right it's not about people.

So if its about the elk, and a heavy winter may kill all of them. Lets shut the season down??? Dont you agree becuase it is for the benifit of the elk. Right???

BHB

[rocksteady]

So if its about the elk, and a heavy winter may kill all of them. Lets shut the season down??? BHB


Do you have any scientific or even anecdotal evidence that this has ever occurred, that a bad winter has killed ALL OF THEM.....I have not heard of such a tragedy......Sounds like an over-exaggeration

However in the bad winter of 96, I was in the West Kootenays for a while, the whitetails were having a tough time, so a few of my friends spent several days, using our own gas/vehicles/powersaws/sweat etc slashing decidious foods that were out of the reach of the deer in the Winter range, so that maybe survival could increase... We did not wait for Government to step in, nor teh local club and BCWF who had to debate it to death prior to feed being given to the ungulates....

The silly thing is that feeding ungulates cut hay will not make them thrive, they lack a certain bacteria in their guts that help them digest it...It makes them full, but they get little out of it...

[hunter1947]

Interesting question,

What is your opinion on this....??

My guess is the number of hunters would increase marginally, but not double. The success rate on a 2 week 3pt season including the trench and high elevation.....the success rate would increase substantially.Now are we talking about a 4 week 3 point ??? ,in the past in the EK it was Sept 20th till Oct 20th ,that would be a 30 day period for 3 or better???. We have to get a time period on the amount of days that will be open in order to get a ball park figure on what the number of hunters that will be there for the days alowed for 3 points.

[Mr. Dean]

No concern, we should be allowed to hunt GOS.

As for the "what ifs". Thats why we have Game Managers. No?
IF the herds are DRASICLY affected somehow, wouldn't it be the managers job to step in and take immediate measures.

Managing via a crystal ball is akin to planning one's future with a fortune teller as your only guidence.

I say deal with what we know, now. Then deal with the unknown, when it's known/presented.

MO.

[rocksteady]

IF the herds are DRASICLY affected somehow, wouldn't it be the managers job to step in and take immediate measures.
MO.

That has not occurred in the past, managers were slow to react...

[hunter1947]

Showing my true colors, thats exactly what "6 point only guys" are doing by not wanting to go back to a 3 point season becuase they are thinking about only themselves, "they want a quality hunt".

Answer me this straight up. What was the population of the elk in the early 80's before all the the LEH's tags started being handed out? From what all the literature and experts say, it is about the same as it is now or even less then. So if the population was the same then as it is now and there was a 3 point season back then and there was for a long time before this. Why cant we have a 3 point season now. ???????????????????
?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????

Oh by the way "once again" there is half the hunters.

BHB Yes you are right BHB saying that the elk population was the same back in the 80tiesas for now. The answer for why can't we have a 3 point season now ,is because we don't what the same thing happening as it did back then in the early 90ties trough to the end of the nineties. In the area I hunt for elk its just been in the last 5 years that they have showen a good comeback in number.

[hunter1947]

That has not occurred in the past, managers were slow to react...
Elk management never did a thing when the population was getting low ,they only talked about putting the elk in the EK on LEH.

[Fisher-Dude]

Okay, for gawd sakes, would you people read this:

THE 3 POINT SEASON DID NOT CAUSE THE DECLINE IN THE ELK NUMBERS IN THE LATE 90s. THE ISSUANCE OF THOUSANDS OF COW/CALF LEH PERMITS AND A DIFFICULT WINTER DID. THAT IS FACT. THAT IS IRREFUTABLE. PLEASE BASE YOUR ARGUMENT BEARING THIS IN MIND. IT DOES NOT NEED TO BE REPEATED OVER AND OVER.

GET IT? GOT IT? GOOD.

[rocksteady]

Okay, for gawd sakes, would you people read this:

THE 3 POINT SEASON DID NOT CAUSE THE DECLINE IN THE ELK NUMBERS IN THE LATE 90s. THE ISSUANCE OF THOUSANDS OF COW/CALF LEH PERMITS AND A DIFFICULT WINTER DID. THAT IS FACT. THAT IS IRREFUTABLE. PLEASE BASE YOUR ARGUMENT BEARING THIS IN MIND. IT DOES NOT NEED TO BE REPEATED OVER AND OVER.

GET IT? GOT IT? GOOD.

No one stated that the 3pt season was the only reason....:!::!:

It was a combination of LEH overkill, Bad winters, mis-management(Which MAY include 3 pt season)..........Is this also not IRREFUTABLE ???

Why will you not recognize mis-management as a factor that could happen again???

[BCrams]

Bottom line. Rocky and H47 are not going to change their views. They are essentially blind to the facts layed at their feet. Everyone knows that and whether they like it or not, changes will happen to manage the elk for the better.

[rocksteady]

Bottom line. Rocky and H47 are not going to change their views. They are essentially blind to the facts layed at their feet. Everyone knows that and whether they like it or not, changes will happen to manage the elk for the better.

I do not care to be called "blind"...I would rather be called "cautious"....Jump off the bridge if you want, but I am not holding your hand.....:biggrin::biggrin:

[BCrams]

I do not care to be called "blind"...I would rather be called "cautious"....Jump off the bridge if you want, but I am not holding your hand.....:biggrin::biggrin:

You can free fall yourself! You're overly cautious to the point of nausea!

[Fisher-Dude]

No one stated that the 3pt season was the only reason....:!::!:

It was a combination of LEH overkill, Bad winters, mis-management(Which MAY include 3 pt season)..........Is this also not IRREFUTABLE ???

Why will you not recognize mis-management as a factor that could happen again???

Evidence: the 3 point season was sustainable with higher hunter numbers throughout the 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s. Thirty five plus years of evidence of sound management and sustainable hunts on 3 point is irrefutable.

Sitting on your ass in the Cranbrook coffee shop saying that all the bulls will be slaughtered if it goes back to 3 point is very refutable.

[Mr. Dean]

Easy Gent's.
We're all her to be informed and to have a good time while doin it. Remember?

Take a deep breath, and relax a little... DON'T squeeze the trigger just yet... Find that 'happy place' instead.

Ah yes.
A bubbling brook, blue sky's with the odd fluffy white cloud, green meadows,,, and Elk bounding EVERYWHERE you look.







Hope it worked. :biggrin:
I almost messed myself. :shock: :oops:

[hunter1947]

Hear is some years that the elk were low and hi in numbers taken. EK bulls shot 1996 ,250 in 2005 ,1200 Juvenile shot in 1996 ,50 ,2005 juvenile shot 100 ,total amount elk shot in 1996 900 ,total amount of elk shot in 2005 1600. In 1984 there were 3800 total animals shot. In 1999 was the lowest amount of elk shot since 1979 ,in 1999 there were a total of 400 that year befor they started rebounding and the scale I found shows that 2005 had 1200 elk shot in total. This means one thing to me that when they implemented the 6 point season in 97 ,98 regs it shows the elk numbers have rebound up to the year 2005 of 1200 taken compared to 400 in the year of 1999.

[Spitzer]

I think they should open all West Kootney LEH to six point antler restriction. Most guys that are lucky enough to get the draws end up shooting 3pt's and 5pt's.

The West Kootneys are the some of the toughest areas in BC to hunt, and those bulls are smart and reside in the toughest, steepest, tangle imaginable.

Roadhunters may shoot a few in the beginning but once they become educated only the die hard elk hunter, or the lucky will be successful, but at least there will be the opportunity to hunt these animals and that's what it's all about.

The elk numbers are getting high in those areas and the wolves are moving in on them. Do we control the elk numbers or let the wolves.....

[BCrams]

Hear is some years that the elk were low and hi in numbers taken. EK bulls shot 1996 ,250 in 2005 ,1200 Juvenile shot in 1996 ,50 ,2005 juvenile shot 100 ,total amount elk shot in 1996 900 ,total amount of elk shot in 2005 1600. In 1984 there were 3800 total animals shot. In 1999 was the lowest amount of elk shot since 1979 ,I'm 1999 there were a total of 400 that year befor they started rebounding and the scale I found shows that 2005 had 1200 elk shot in total. This means one thing to me that when they implemented the 6 point season in 97 ,98 regs it shows the elk numbers have rebound up to the year 2005 of 1200 taken compared to 400 in the year of 1999.

Thats the purpose of the 6pt ... its part of a "recovery strategy". Thats over. Time to relax the restrictions to manage the elk population.

[hunter1947]

I think they should open all West Kootney LEH to six point antler restriction. Most guys that are lucky enough to get the draws end up shooting 3pt's and 5pt's.

The West Kootneys are the some of the toughest areas in BC to hunt, and those bulls are smart and reside in the toughest, steepest, tangle imaginable.

Roadhunters may shoot a few in the beginning but once they become educated only the die hard elk hunter, or the lucky will be successful, but at least there will be the opportunity to hunt these animals and that's what it's all about.

The elk numbers are getting high in those areas and the wolves are moving in on them. Do we control the elk numbers or let the wolves..... We do both .control the wolves and the elk.

[Spitzer]

We do both .control the wolves and the elk.


The problem in the WK is to get into these areas in winter to hunt wolves is costly, thus not many do, and that's why wolf numbers are expanding every year into areas where there were none.

[rocksteady]

You can free fall yourself! You're overly cautious to the point of nausea!

People in glass houses, should not throw stones BCRams !!!

Showing some true colors of frustration....

[kenkell1]

I still havent seen any documented proof that the Elk numbers are over carrying capacity in the WK or even the EK for that matter.
Does anyone have the numbers?
There is a reason that the 6 pnt season will stand again for another hunting season isn't there?

[rocksteady]

Evidence: the 3 point season was sustainable with higher hunter numbers throughout the 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s. Thirty five plus years of evidence of sound management and sustainable hunts on 3 point is irrefutable. So the 1000's of cow/calf tags was sound management and then we have one bad winter and had to go to 6 points...???? I am not saying that the 3pt season is the downfall of elk populations across the East Kootenays, There were other factors involved..LEH/bad winter/ etc etc....All have the potential to come back thoguh again and then we will be back in "recovery strategy" mode...

Sitting on your ass in the Cranbrook coffee shop saying that all the bulls will be slaughtered if it goes back to 3 point is very refutable.

All I can say to this last statement is I have never made such a comment. Don't put words in my mouth and even if I was sitting in a Cranbrook Coffee Shop, what relevance is that to the discussion????

People in glass houses, should not be tossing stones....

Touche !!!!

[GoatGuy]

However in the bad winter of 96, I was in the West Kootenays for a while, the whitetails were having a tough time, so a few of my friends spent several days, using our own gas/vehicles/powersaws/sweat etc slashing decidious foods that were out of the reach of the deer in the Winter range, so that maybe survival could increase... We did not wait for Government to step in, nor teh local club and BCWF who had to debate it to death prior to feed being given to the ungulates.......

Great - feeding whitetails in the West Kootenays. In an area where their population should be low to non-existant, habitat is marginal and mule deer and caribou are struggling. Feeding a species that rebounds faster than any other and is considered one of the major reasons why mule deer aren't rebounding and one of the driving forces behind the apparent competition research that's gone on there.

That is wrong - you shouldn't be doing that.




The silly thing is that feeding ungulates cut hay will not make them thrive, they lack a certain bacteria in their guts that help them digest it...It makes them full, but they get little out of it...


That's only correct to a degree. It can work and does work in other jurisdictions. It's part of 'wildlife management' in other areas. I think you have some reading to do.

[GoatGuy]

Hear is some years that the elk were low and hi in numbers taken. EK bulls shot 1996 ,250 in 2005 ,1200 Juvenile shot in 1996 ,50 ,2005 juvenile shot 100 ,total amount elk shot in 1996 900 ,total amount of elk shot in 2005 1600. In 1984 there were 3800 total animals shot. In 1999 was the lowest amount of elk shot since 1979 ,in 1999 there were a total of 400 that year befor they started rebounding and the scale I found shows that 2005 had 1200 elk shot in total. This means one thing to me that when they implemented the 6 point season in 97 ,98 regs it shows the elk numbers have rebound up to the year 2005 of 1200 taken compared to 400 in the year of 1999.

Hunter1947, I'm not sure where you're getting your numbers from - close to half of them are wrong.

[rocksteady]

Great - feeding whitetails in the West Kootenays. In an area where their population should be low to non-existant, habitat is marginal and mule deer and caribou are struggling. Feeding a species that rebounds faster than any other and is considered one of the major reasons why mule deer aren't rebounding and one of the driving forces behind the apparent competition research that's gone on there.

That is wrong - you shouldn't be doing that.

Is it better to sit idle and watch the animals perish??? As an avid outdoorsman, I can't/won't do that...



That's only correct to a degree. It can work and does work in other jurisdictions. It's part of 'wildlife management' in other areas. I think you have some reading to do.

So did it work in our jurisdiction?? What percentage did it work for??

[GoatGuy]

Interesting question,

What is your opinion on this....??

My guess is the number of hunters would increase marginally, but not double. The success rate on a 2 week 3pt season including the trench and high elevation.....the success rate would increase substantially.

Majority of the effort would still be 'in the trench'. Hunter effort certainly wouldn't double particularly considering changes that will be occurring in 7B.

It depends on the season and location. On a 2 week season you'd be hard pressed to generate an additional 30% more hunters. There will be a 'rush' the first year but it'll drop off in ensuing years no different than what happened in 7A. As far as educating the elk one has to consider 3 pts are going to be 2 1/2 year old animals. 'Education' through the transition is limited. It isn't like long lived high fidelity herd animals like sheep.

I'll be able to put it together a bit better when the bull:cow and cow:calf ratios come out. I'm really interested in the bull:cow ratio. I think we're going to find it's quite high.

At 30,000 elk there's easily room to double or even triple the current harvest without seeing a downward trend. Most jurisdictions harvest at 15-20% annually. That's 4500-6000 and increase of 400% of what we're doing right now.

I think there's plenty of room to increase the harvest exponentially - right now we don't have the hunters to be able to do that.

[Fisher-Dude]

RS, no where did I say that 1000's of flat top LEHs were sound management. What I did say is that 35 years of 3 point season did NOT affect the herd and WAS sound management. You keep trying to gloss over the 30 years before R DiM let the LEHs out.

You have ZERO proof that a 3 point season will affect the herd in a detrimental way. We have 35 years of proof that a 3 point season is sustainable and isn't detrimental to the herd.

Address the 35 years of sustainable 3 point bull seasons in your next post please. Leave cow/calf out of it.

[GoatGuy]

So did it work in our jurisdiction?? What percentage did it work for??

Yes it works in other jurisdictions but you expose the population to several risks including major potential for a massive die-off due to disease. Ticking time bomb is the saying.

So long as deer make it through the transition they'll be just fine. Elk are like garbage cans, they can take just about anything. Some jurisdictions do it every single year.


The best way to avoid this is to keep wildlife populations under carrying capacity so they hit the winter range in good shape.

[rocksteady]

RS, no where did I say that 1000's of flat top LEHs were sound management. What I did say is that 35 years of 3 point season did NOT affect the herd and WAS sound management. . Evidence: the 3 point season was sustainable with higher hunter numbers throughout the 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s. Were the 1000's of antlerless LEH released in this period of time..YEP...Was this during the 35 years that you say was "sound Management"...YEP...

You have ZERO proof that a 3 point season will affect the herd in a detrimental way. We have 35 years of proof that a 3 point season is sustainable and isn't detrimental to the herd.

Address the 35 years of sustainable 3 point bull seasons in your next post please. Leave cow/calf out of it.

It is hard to leave the cow/calf issue out of the equation, as it occurred and had a significant impact...Thats like saying,"in your next post keep the bad winter of 96 out of it"....Both were factors and both could happen again.....Don't deny it...

We may not have 1000's of LEH going out right now, but we do have a Sr./Jr. season followed by 2 LEH draws...All for the same herds....

[kenkell1]

and once again I ask....is there any proof that the Elk are over carrying capacity?

[hunter1947]

and once again I ask....is there any proof that the Elk are over carrying capacity? No elk are not over carrying capacity ,the numbers I have got for 2006 are at 2,300 head. the EK can carry 40 ,000 elk without being a problem.

[GoatGuy]

No elk are not over carrying capacity ,the numbers I have got for 2006 are at 2,300 head. the EK can carry 40 ,000 elk without being a problem.

No census in 2006 - so no info. Not sure where you're getting all your info but it's different from the info I have.

Flights have just been conducted. Good guess puts it between 25,000 and 30,000. We'll have to wait for the report to find out.

EK does not have carrying capacity for 40,000 elk. Last time a habitat model was done I think it was anywhere from 23,000-25,000 and that didn't include all the exclusionary fencing that was setup in the last couple years. So real numbers puts that lower.

Not to mention the fact the population should be lower than carrying capacity.

Hunter47 I think you should read on the EK Elk Management Plan. I'm sure you'll find it if you google it.

[BCrams]

No elk are not over carrying capacity ,the numbers I have got for 2006 are at 2,300 head. the EK can carry 40 ,000 elk without being a problem.

Falsifying information. Classic!

Avoids answering to direct facts.
Keeps going back to cow / calf elk

Has nothing to back up his numbers or information ... all coffee shop banter!

[Timbow]

No elk are not over carrying capacity ,the numbers I have got for 2006 are at 2,300 head. the EK can carry 40 ,000 elk without being a problem.

If that's the case, why are we debating? Close it down.http://forums.accuratereloading.com/coffee.gif

[hunter1947]

No census in 2006 - so no info. Not sure where you're getting all your info but it's different from the info I have.

Flights have just been conducted. Good guess puts it between 25,000 and 30,000. We'll have to wait for the report to find out.

EK does not have carrying capacity for 40,000 elk. Last time a habitat model was done I think it was anywhere from 23,000-25,000 and that didn't include all the exclusionary fencing that was setup in the last couple years. So real numbers puts that lower.

Not to mention the fact the population should be lower than carrying capacity.

Hunter47 I think you should read on the EK Elk Management Plan. I'm sure you'll find it if you Google it. GG sorry I can't find the elk numbers that I had locked onto in google's I did find a scale of all elk being taken in the EK from 1997 till 2005. I did find something close. Hear is what figures I got from 1976 to 1998. It shows that there were 3,800 elk taken in the year of 84, I was correct on them figures from my last post. and then the elk numbers droped like a fly ,I have 1000 elk shot in 1998. I couldn't find the scale from 1998 to 2005 when I do I will let you know ,but what I saw from the scale they continued to drop till 1999 then the population went up like a rocket ship till now. I have the old regs I just looked at and the year was 1998 when they introduced a 6 point season. It shows you that after implementing a 6 point season in 98 the numbers rebounded to around 2,300 now. I don't believe that the hole east kootenays cant hold a population of 40,000 elk ,prove it to me. Ps I typed in on google's ,east kootenay elk populations in 1997 ,thats how I found my last scale.

[rocksteady]

If that's the case, why are we debating? Close it down.http://forums.accuratereloading.com/coffee.gif


Maybe it is just a slip of the finger on a keyboard, that does happen....:wink:

[hunter1947]

If that's the case, why are we debating? Close it down.http://forums.accuratereloading.com/coffee.gif
I'm not in favor of closing any season down I just want good numbers there so you or others and the new generation can hunt them at a stable population I don't want the numbers to fall to a low number again :wink:.

[6616]

If that's the case, why are we debating? Close it down.http://forums.accuratereloading.com/coffee.gif


47, I'm pretty sure 2300 is the harvest number for 2006, not the population estimate.

[BCrams]

6616 No that is not the harvest number ,if it was there would be no elk left in a year or two.

It certainly isn't the population estimate!