Evidence that more liberal seasons will increase recruitment and retention??

[horshur]

That is my question....is there precedent that shows evidence of these initiatives actually working or are these desperate measures that have no base???

[David Heitsman]

Help me out here, are you referrring to getting and keeping more hunters
in the field?

If so I don't think seasons mean anything, liberal or otherwise. There's too much competition with school schedules, kids sports programs and nintendo. After that, there's the fact that they have to take all these courses and tests and that really thins the younger hunters out.

[Will]

...or are these desperate measures that have no base???
Just desperate measures........Declining Hunter numbers has more to do with Social changes IMO......Most folks don't have "time" to enjoy the outdoors anymore...heck most are just too lazy to enjoy the outdoors.

Sadly this is being passed on to our youth and so on and so on......each new generation becoming less motivated to historic "pursuits" then the last:-(

Now we Hunt from home on our Intraweb..........

[frenchbar]

Educating the kids in our school system would be a start in getting more youngsters into hunters.I know in the early seventies ..i think i was in the 6th or seventh grade we had mini courses a couple times a week and one of them was fire arm safety and surprizingly most of the kids my age took this course and it went a long way into why we started hunting in the first place.

[Steeleco]

From listening to my son, his peers as school look down upon him and his few hunting friends because they hunt. If they have been spoon fed their opinion from their parents, and taught to think hunting is wrong, having an "Open season" won't get their kind out hunting. They need to be given the choice to take some form of training at school where their parents have no influence.

[Gateholio]

Just desperate measures........Declining Hunter numbers has more to do with Social changes IMO......Most folks don't have "time" to enjoy the outdoors anymore...heck most are just too lazy to enjoy the outdoors.


I odn't knwo if I agree with that. Look at the huge amount of business MEC, Taiga etc does. There seem to be more people than ever gettign outside.

They just arent' hunting as much.

[horshur]

I odn't knwo if I agree with that. Look at the huge amount of business MEC, Taiga etc does. There seem to be more people than ever gettign outside.

They just arent' hunting as much.

No they are not going outside....they are just looking like they are going outside. It is fashion. Whistler blackholm ain't really outside very much.

This is not what I was getting at however.
When the "Powers" anounced they were going to do somthing about the Caribou(Preditor control ect ect) it became clear to me they had no real intention of doing that. Apparently they needed the Data as proof so most of the money and effort is going into collaring live wolves and cougars ect...to see whether they do eat the caribou.

This is my point......do they have proof?....is there precident that liberal hunting seasons will help at all. Will a three point Elk season really matter at all?

[dana]

I'm starting to think it's much to do about nothing. I'm willing to bet all the hunter recruitment initiatives that were proposed won't be put into effect. It will be just like the Caribou Recovery Strategy. All talk and no action from those that make the rules.

[YukonJack]

Yeah, I dunno. I think BC already has among the most (if not the most) liberal seasons in the country. What's that saying?....looking a gift horse in the mouth?....don't know what you got til it's gone?....distance makes the heart grow fonder?....
Ahhh....if it works, we all benifit. If it doesn't...status quo. We continue to enjoy liberal seasons and bag limits, and continue to indtroduce and foster this heritage among our own children and other's who care to learn.
The simple fact that there's proposals, is reason enough to believe that there won't be any looming reductions, and that Friends, is a good thing as I see it.
Government is clearly concerned about potential revenue...maybe we can all reap some from whatever occurs? For once?

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Or we could do nothing........................................... ....:-|.

We know what will happen then. Better start getting together your memoirs like RockSteady. That's all that will be left.

What would you do??

Of the long list of things affecting hunter decline what are the things that we CAN control?? I think F/D summarized it somewhere in one of these quickly growing threads.

SSS

[mark]

I for one don't believe that changing the antler restriction from 6 to 3 will create more hunters, but it will definately sell more elk tags, and create alot more happy hunters as they come home with a full freezer of elk meat!!!!

People certainly dont consider the "6 point elk season" a reason not to become a hunter, but with the limited success, maybe they dont bother hunting them!

[browningboy]

The kids in school are raised on hockey, ball etc. and know nothing about it, therefor find it "cruel" to go out and "kill" game, kids now are just plain lazier, I can contest with all our young apprentices don't have the same work ethic as ones from the past.

Another, its plainly getting expensive and for some doesn't make financial sense to even bother especially to the better half , she sees a week off work,tags, bullets, food, booze, gas, accomodations, clothing, ATV fuel, maintenence, ATV itself etc... the meat is fine table fair but tough to swallow at $ 65.00 / pound! (if successfull)

It's tough, if you're the only one that enjoys the meat and the rest of the family "eats" it and none want to get into it as well, I've read that on several forums from the past and people eventually just give it up.

So to me, there is alot against the hunter these days, so enjoy it while you can!

[Will]

So to me, there is alot against the hunter these days, so enjoy it while you can!
Yes the Hunter will be Extinct long before the game he pursues.......Sad but inevitable I'm afraid :cry:

[Gamebuster]

No they are not going outside....they are just looking like they are going outside. It is fashion. Whistler blackholm ain't really outside very much.

This is not what I was getting at however.
When the "Powers" anounced they were going to do somthing about the Caribou(Preditor control ect ect) it became clear to me they had no real intention of doing that. Apparently they needed the Data as proof so most of the money and effort is going into collaring live wolves and cougars ect...to see whether they do eat the caribou.

This is my point......do they have proof?....is there precident that liberal hunting seasons will help at all. Will a three point Elk season really matter at all?

they've been doing a fair bit of wolf control in region 5 to promote caribou recovery

[Kody94]

What would you do??

Of the long list of things affecting hunter decline what are the things that we CAN control??

I think the most effective thing we can do, that is entirely something we CAN control, is to each make a concerted effort to take more newbies hunting, and get guys out to your camp that haven't been hunting as much the last few years. We need to put the fun back in hunting for these guys. There is TONNES of opportunity out there already...we just need to get guys/gals/kids riled up about taking advantage of it.

Liberalizing seasons may help a little, but I don't think it'll do any good at all without the above.

I've read GG's report frontwards, backwards and sideways, and I still firmly believe that the culture created by guys from my generation (35 to 50) is the ENTIRE problem.

We have to make it cool again. That won't happen without a helluva lot of effort on our parts.

JMHO,
4Ster

[horshur]

What would you do??SSS

the only thing I can.....raise my own family in the tradition.

[dana]

I think the most effective thing we can do, that is entirely something we CAN control, is to each make a concerted effort to take more newbies hunting, and get guys out to your camp that haven't been hunting as much the last few years. We need to put the fun back in hunting for these guys. There is TONNES of opportunity out there already...we just need to get guys/gals/kids riled up about taking advantage of it.

Liberalizing seasons may help a little, but I don't think it'll do any good at all without the above.



Bingo!
That is about all we can do. Regardless of what the government does, that is one thing WE can do, expose others to the great outdoors, especially the youth. It really isn't that hard.

[Kody94]

Hey Dana, welcome back. ;)

I was going to put it this simply.... "Buy a wall tent if you don't have one, set it up somewhere for a week or two this season, and make some invites. If you build it they will come. Repeat as often as possible."

Maybe that should be my signature line? :)

Cheers,
4Ster

[dana]

I like that thought. Just make sure you have a fire extinguisher on hand in case someone puts too much wood in the stove. ;)

[Kody94]

Just make sure you have a fire extinguisher on hand in case someone puts too much wood in the stove. ;)

ROTFLMAO!

:lol:

[eastkoot]

I think the most effective thing we can do, that is entirely something we CAN control, is to each make a concerted effort to take more newbies hunting, and get guys out to your camp that haven't been hunting as much the last few years. We need to put the fun back in hunting for these guys. There is TONNES of opportunity out there already...we just need to get guys/gals/kids riled up about taking advantage of it.

Liberalizing seasons may help a little, but I don't think it'll do any good at all without the above.

I've read GG's report frontwards, backwards and sideways, and I still firmly believe that the culture created by guys from my generation (35 to 50) is the ENTIRE problem.

We have to make it cool again. That won't happen without a helluva lot of effort on our parts.

Exactly !!!!

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Bingo!
That is about all we can do. Regardless of what the government does, that is one thing WE can do, expose others to the great outdoors, especially the youth. It really isn't that hard.

You guys are right and are already doing it right. I hope to follow your lead as well....but we have to remember that "we" are not the norm. We have to reach out further.

Our club has talked about getting a youth hunting camp set up for the youth week. Focus completely on the kids and set it up so it's one-on-one. However, talking about it and getting it up and running are two different things. Most of the guys interested are already committed to taking their own kids out.
Recruiting others kids that don't have fathers that hunt is one of the big problems we face.

Hopefully, we can get something figured out. I'm sure the kids would have a hoot!!
SSS

[CanuckShooter]

believe that the culture created by guys from my generation (35 to 50) is the ENTIRE problem.

We have to make it cool again. That won't happen without a helluva lot of effort on our parts.


Not one person on this thread has identified the education system K-12....and their failure to teach our cultural heritage. They will show you the bambi movie, and the 'don't kill the baby seal' propaganda tapes, but they won't promote hunting/fishing/trapping/gathering as part of Canadian culture.

I think our education system has a lot of bearing on how our kids come out of school thinking about hunting as a sport...and the peer pressure to not 'kill bambis daddy' can be tremendous.

So I have to disagree with the person I quoted above....it's not the 35-50 generation that is the entire problem.

[Fisher-Dude]

There is a TONNE of evidence that curtailing seasons decreases recruitment and retention. That's a given in all jurisdictions.

There is another study that should be read, that was written by John Thornton of the Wildlife Branch:

http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/fw/ds/docs/070607_HunterRecruitment-RetentionStrategy.pdf

One of his key findings:

"In general, wildlife managers should adopt a quantity over quality philosophy for deer, moose and elk. Hunting success is strongly related to continued participation, and there are far more hunters that are happy to shoot an average animal than there are hunters whose specific purpose is to bag a trophy. Really skilled hunters are capable of finding impressive animals if they put their minds to it, but hunters of lesser skill find their chances for success greatly limited by trophy management practices. Furthermore, managing for animals with impressive antlers pushes opportunity away from general open seasons and towards Limited Entry hunting, restricting participation even further."

[Kody94]

So I have to disagree with the person I quoted above....it's not the 35-50 generation that is the entire problem.

You are right about the education system. And there are lots of factors (as identified above) that are outside of our control.

My comment about "us" being the problem was a bit hyperbolous (love making up new words) for effect. I believe those of us that should be out there, mentoring kids, and fighting for our rights, etc, have been too wrapped up in our little lives. We have let things get the way they are, and it took someone publishing some hunting stats (hunter #s in particular) to wake us up. We need to take some responsibility for the problem, wake up anyone that's still asleep, and do something about it.

And my comment was intended to capture more than us hunters. The hard truth is that its Generation X that is responsible for all the lazy ass, disrespectful, ADD, yadda yadda kids of today...

Please note that I am using the broadest use of the terms "us" and "we" possible....I am sure I am preaching to the converted for the most part around here.

Cheers,
4Ster

[Flinch]

I think it is a bit of a slippery slope: If the season is more liberal and it is easier to go out and "easily" fill a tag (read 3 point) then it is easier for a new guy/gal to get hooked and it will retain the slightly discouraged guy who is on the verge of giving up hunting because he has not killed anything in years despite trying. But if we start killing more animals initially then what may happen down the road is that it will become harder to get any elk and you may go for a day or two without seeing an elk.

My opinion is that by opening it up more guys will be successful and this (both the hunting and the elk population) will likely be more sustainable in the long run. Get rid of the antlerless harvest and shoot some 3 point bulls. Even if it went something like Sept 10-25 6 point, Sept 26-Oct 20 3 point. But keep it simple.

We have learned from other regions (the Peace) that the closer populations are to carrying capacity the more catastrophic the numbers crash when things go bad (and they always do); like a hard winter or a disease. No doubt the EK elk have exceeded the social carrying capacity in the trench and they are probably getting to the point where they are exceeding the suitability carrying capacity of the land.

[dana]

You guys are right and are already doing it right. I hope to follow your lead as well....but we have to remember that "we" are not the norm.

Personally, I think the numbers just haven't caught up to what is out there. There are a lot more guys like us than you think, who have kids that are just coming of age or will be of age in a few more years. I believe these kids are the ones that are already starting to bump the numbers up. Guys like GG are the ones that are falling behind. He really needs to get his shit together and start making some future hunters.:lol:

[YukonJack]

You guys are right and are already doing it right. I hope to follow your lead as well....but we have to remember that "we" are not the norm. We have to reach out further.

Our club has talked about getting a youth hunting camp set up for the youth week. Focus completely on the kids and set it up so it's one-on-one. However, talking about it and getting it up and running are two different things. Most of the guys interested are already committed to taking their own kids out.
Recruiting others kids that don't have fathers that hunt is one of the big problems we face.

Hopefully, we can get something figured out. I'm sure the kids would have a hoot!!
SSS

Well that is a commendable undertaking by your Club....and as you say, it may prove a huge hurdle. How do you get the hooks in a youngster who's own father (or mother for that matter) does not hunt?
I don't envy you that challenge.
Maybe it might be as simple as being on the lookout for co-workers who make an aside comment about their children's lack of activity....and find an opening to invite them to the camp?
Maybe an offer to dinner...where game is served as an alternate to tame fare, and discussion of it's virtues ensues.
Jeeez...I wish I was up in your neck of the woods for this one. I have nothing but time to become involved....
Best of luck to you and your Club. My wishes to even a minute success are ever present for you.
Yukon

[Kody94]

There is a TONNE of evidence that curtailing seasons decreases recruitment and retention. That's a given in all jurisdictions.

There is another study that should be read, that was written by John Thornton of the Wildlife Branch:

http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/fw/ds/docs/070607_HunterRecruitment-RetentionStrategy.pdf

One of his key findings:

"In general, wildlife managers should adopt a quantity over quality philosophy for deer, moose and elk. Hunting success is strongly related to continued participation, and there are far more hunters that are happy to shoot an average animal than there are hunters whose specific purpose is to bag a trophy. Really skilled hunters are capable of finding impressive animals if they put their minds to it, but hunters of lesser skill find their chances for success greatly limited by trophy management practices. Furthermore, managing for animals with impressive antlers pushes opportunity away from general open seasons and towards Limited Entry hunting, restricting participation even further."

Fisher-Dude,

I have read that report inside-out and backwards too. Without going back to it (ie going by memory here), if I am not mistaken, the basis for conclusions in that comment was GoatGuy's study. Correct me if I am wrong, but I think you are "double dipping" with that one....ie. using a circular reference to validify a point of view.

I don't disagree with the general sentiment in that quoted comment, but I think its a little too general to draw specific conclusions about one-off seasons. 6 pt seasons don't really manage for "impressive antlers", IMHO. And a lot of bulls that are killed are "average animals"...pretty small 6pts. In the context of the EK, what really does constitute and "average animal"? 3pts? Spikes? 5pts?

Anyway, as I mentioned above, I am not against liberalizing the season...but I don't agree with a wholesale change to a 3pt season at this time. Increasing opportunity gradually should address practically everyone's concerns...start with a short 3pt season early, see how it goes, and increase from there if results are good.

Cheers
4Ster

[Kody94]

Personally, I think the numbers just haven't caught up to what is out there. There are a lot more guys like us than you think, who have kids that are just coming of age or will be of age in a few more years. I believe these kids are the ones that are already starting to bump the numbers up. Guys like GG are the ones that are falling behind. He really needs to get his shit together and start making some future hunters.:lol:

If I take 2 friends, you take 2 friends, SSS takes two friends.....it adds up fast....its infectious.

Giving the "guys like us" a place to take their kids is a great start IMHO, and the least we can do.

Cheers,
4Ster

[Kody94]

How do you get the hooks in a youngster who's own father (or mother for that matter) does not hunt?
I don't envy you that challenge.
Yukon

I think its just great that they are doing that too. A fantastic place to start. I think the best we can do to start out is focus on the kids that have an outdoor "bent" already. Others with an interest will come out of the "woodwork" on their own. I am always amazed at the number of young hunters I encounter than had no mentor or family to get them started...if they have it in them, they look for ways to express it. If they don't have it at all, it would be fruitless and probably wasted energy to try and convert them.

Cheers,
4Ster

[Fisher-Dude]

Thornton used Zeman's study as a resource, but by no means are the two the same report. They did, however, come to similar conclusions. Those conclusions don't support restrictive seasons where no conservation concern exists, so I guess trying to discredit those findings would be in the best interests of people who don't want others hunting "their" animals, right? :wink:

6 point seasons manage for impressive antlers much more so than 3 point seasons. Don't try to discredit that fact too. On average, 6 point seasons will see more large bulls killed than under a 3 point season. Saying that dink sixes are killed so it doesn't mean it's a trophy season is wrong. Conversely, saying that big 5's are killed, so a 3 point season doesn't cater to the majority of BC's hunters (ie meat hunters) would be wrong too. Most elk hunters will shoot the first legal bull they can, so under a more liberal season, it's likely they will tag out on an average bull. Under a restrictive 6 point season, the average bull taken will be older and larger than under a 3 point season, dink 6's included.

At least under a 3 point season, where there is no conservation concern, a trophy hunter can hunt the same big 6 point bulls he would hunt under a 3 point season. The option to hunt 3 - 4 - 5 point meat bulls, however, is not available to the vast majority of hunters under a 6 point season. To whom then, does that 6 point season cater? Not to the majority.

It's interesting that the 79% figure of meat/meat then selective hunters that was determined in the Zeman study is being borne out by the two polls we have on here: 74% in one poll, and 75% in the other poll favour opening a 3 point bull season. Cool. :D

[Kody94]

Thornton used Zeman's study as a resource, but by no means are the two the same report. They did, however, come to similar conclusions.

I am not trying to discredit either report. And I'm not in this discussion for self interest.

What I was driving at, is from what did Thornton draw his conclusion? I believe it was Zeman's study...but am open to correction. If it was just his opinion, then its not a conclusion. And if his conclusion was based on Zeman's study, then it doesn't corroborate anything....he's just agreeing, which is no different than you or I writing our opinion here. BUT, if he has different data that corroborates Zeman's findings...well thats another thing altogether...and that's my point.


6 point seasons manage for impressive antlers much more so than 3 point seasons. Don't try to discredit that fact too. On average, 6 point seasons will see more large bulls killed than under a 3 point season. Saying that dink sixes are killed so it doesn't mean it's a trophy season is wrong.

Well it is my humble opinion that you are wrong. So I guess we disagree. I am OK with that...are you? :)

It is not a "trophy season". It is a season designed to reduce pressure on total take of bulls in a population that was skewed heavily to young bulls, and had a massive issue with cow/calf ratios due to inneffective breeding. The population had crashed, and the best way to bring it back was to eliminate removal of breeding cows, and ensure there was enough mature bulls to have a high rate of conception.

You are the one trying to discredit a legitimate conservation tool, by defaming it through marginalization (ie. calling it a trophy season for trophy hunters only).

The fact that it allows bulls on average to get older does not make it a trophy season. The only way to have a true trophy season is to limit the harvest of bulls to the point that a number of them make it to and past maturity. The WK LEH season IS a true trophy season (and FYI, I voted to open it up, in case you were wondering).

At this point, I think FOR CONSERVATION REASONS primarily, we still need to have some protection on the bull harvest. I have made myself clear on the fact that I do not support 6pt seasons indefinitely.

But, I also believe that we need to cater to all interests in hunting. WHY aleinate a bunch of hunters you have now, just to recruit some, when you can have your cake and eat it too?



At least under a 3 point season, where there is no conservation concern, a trophy hunter can hunt the same big 6 point bulls he would hunt under a 3 point season. The option to hunt 3 - 4 - 5 point meat bulls, however, is not available to the vast majority of hunters under a 6 point season. To whom then, does that 6 point season cater? Not to the majority.

What is wrong with a limited 3pt season, followed by a 6pt season? Does that not cater to everyone?

Under a 3pt season, a trophy hunter can hunt big 6pt bulls...I don't dispute that.

What about the selective hunter that would prefer any 6pt over a raghorn? His chances will be greatly diminished.

What about the meat first-selective next hunter that would rather have a better chance at a bigger meat bull, than a spike or 3? Under a 3pt season, the chances at a more mature bull and a real rut hunt/bugling experience are significantly diminished.

I think what I am proposing would provide plenty of opportunity for everyone, and address the conservation concerns that many of us here in the Kootenays still have.

My 2c
4ster

[Onesock]

BC already has very liberal seasons. Kids that belong to hunting families will probably become hunters with the seasons we have now. As SSSSter said take a newbie hunting now. More liberal seasons will not change society's views on firearms or hunting and this is the reason for the decline in hunters. How many guys that weren't success*** this year will quit hunting? I think not many, so more liberal seasons will not affect the hunters we have now. There is a small chance more liberal seasons might attract a few hunters and when the seasons have to be cut back because of over harvest or 2 bad winters in a row we would probably loose the opportunists. Once again, take a newbie hunting, teach them the proper way and you may have a hunter for life.

[browningboy]

I'm going to answer in laimens terms, if the system was more liberal, there would be more hunters, I've had many conversations with X-hunters and they mention...stupid LEH's, too many tines or not enough??, count the brow or do I? etc..
Seems like common sense to most but those are their discouragements, the crown seems to make it more and more difficult with some silly regs, not to mention not very friendly towards disabled hunters etc. WHy couldn't a disabled hunter be allowed to use his quad in the morning in reg 7A? especially when it rains, who wants to take the truck out then?
I'm not going by professional studies, I'm going one better, the scholastic school of browningboy!:cool:

[Gateholio]

Life is much easier in Region 2. No elk hunting, but we have a 2 buck limit and no antler restrictions. So there is no need to have half a dozen threads on the same topic.:wink::tongue:

[Fisher-Dude]

I am not trying to discredit either report. And I'm not in this discussion for self interest.

What I was driving at, is from what did Thornton draw his conclusion? I believe it was Zeman's study...but am open to correction. If it was just his opinion, then its not a conclusion. And if his conclusion was based on Zeman's study, then it isn't a separate source saying the same thing. If he has different data that corroborates Zeman's...well thats another thing altogether...and that's my point.

Take a look at the contributors to his report - Zeman was just one of many. Included were Dave Dunbar (EK bio) and Garth Mowat (WK bio) interestingly enough. ;-)

Well it is my humble opinion that you are wrong. So I guess we disagree. I am OK with that...are you? :)

Wouldn't be the first one. :p

It is not a "trophy season". It is a season designed to reduce pressure on total take of bulls in a population that was skewed heavily to young bulls, and had a massive issue with cow/calf ratios due to inneffective breeding. The population had crashed, and the best way to bring it back was to eliminate removal of breeding cows, and ensure there was enough mature bulls to have a high rate of conception.

You are the one trying to discredit a legitimate conservation tool.

The fact that it allows bulls on average to get older does not make it a trophy season. The only way to have a true trophy season is to limit the harvest of bulls to the point that a number of them make it to and past maturity. The WK LEH season IS a true trophy season (and FYI, I voted to open it up, in case you were wondering).

Good on ya, it should be open.

At this point, I think FOR CONSERVATION REASONS primarily, we still need to have some protection on the bull harvest. I have made myself clear on the fact that I do not support 6pt seasons indefinitely.

Good. It's been proven to be bad for the herd long term.

But, I also believe that we need to cater to all interests in hunting. WHY aleinate a bunch of hunters you have now, just to recruit some, when you can have your cake and eat it too?

How many hunters will sell out and give up if we go to 3 point in the EK? Certainly NOT one on here! We'll all hunt if it's 3, 6 or spike! And I believe that I could count on one hand the number of EK elk hunters who will be so "discouraged" by increased opportunity that helps to ensure the future of hunting in BC that they sell out.


What is wrong with a limited 3pt season, followed by a 6pt season? Does that not cater to everyone?

That's what the proposal was, and it got squashed by the vocal minority. You tell me why. :-(

Under a 3pt season, a trophy hunter can hunt big 6pt bulls...I don't dispute that.

What about the selective hunter that would prefer any 6pt over a raghorn? His chances will be greatly diminished.

Diminished? How so? He can still hold out for any 6 point in a 3 point season. Those 6 points also have less pressure as guys who would otherwise be pursuing them may already be tagged out or pursuing raghorns.

What about the meat first-selective next hunter that would rather have a better chance at a bigger meat bull, than a spike or 3? Under a 3pt season, the chances at a more mature bull and a real rut hunt/bugling experience are significantly diminished.

That guy shoots the first legal bull he can. He then holds out for something bigger for his next animal (ie a bigger whitey or mulie or moose) once he has his freezer stocked.

I had the best bugling and crashing branches and charging bulls of my entire 31 years of EK elk hunting in the 80s under 3 point regs. We shot raghorns and we shot several 300 - 315 class bulls in those seasons too. Our chances were better. Actually, I only shot one raghorn that I remember, with the rest being 6 points. Go figure.

I think what I am proposing would provide plenty of opportunity for everyone, and address the conservation concerns that many of us here in the Kootenays still have.

My 2c
4ster

...............

[Deerwhacker]

Its a simple matter of now adays more people are living in the city and in that environment hunting is not as socially accepted as it is in small towns.Most people are not looking at the regulations to base there decision on weather or not to hunt.

[Kody94]

.
Originally Posted by SSSSter http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/showthread.php?p=245013#post245013)
I am not trying to discredit either report. And I'm not in this discussion for self interest.

What I was driving at, is from what did Thornton draw his conclusion? I believe it was Zeman's study...but am open to correction. If it was just his opinion, then its not a conclusion. And if his conclusion was based on Zeman's study, then it isn't a separate source saying the same thing. If he has different data that corroborates Zeman's...well thats another thing altogether...and that's my point.

Take a look at the contributors to his report - Zeman was just one of many. Included were Dave Dunbar (EK bio) and Garth Mowat (WK bio) interestingly enough.

If there was no new data, then its just their opinion...which doesn't carry much weight with me. Their expert opinion is in the biology field, not hunter demographics.

I am not trying to belabor the point, though.


Well it is my humble opinion that you are wrong. So I guess we disagree. I am OK with that...are you?

Wouldn't be the first one.

I couldn't help but notice. :razz:

It is not a "trophy season". It is a season designed to reduce pressure on total take of bulls in a population that was skewed heavily to young bulls, and had a massive issue with cow/calf ratios due to inneffective breeding. The population had crashed, and the best way to bring it back was to eliminate removal of breeding cows, and ensure there was enough mature bulls to have a high rate of conception.

You are the one trying to discredit a legitimate conservation tool.

The fact that it allows bulls on average to get older does not make it a trophy season. The only way to have a true trophy season is to limit the harvest of bulls to the point that a number of them make it to and past maturity. The WK LEH season IS a true trophy season (and FYI, I voted to open it up, in case you were wondering).

Good on ya, it should be open.

At this point, I think FOR CONSERVATION REASONS primarily, we still need to have some protection on the bull harvest. I have made myself clear on the fact that I do not support 6pt seasons indefinitely.

Good. It's been proven to be bad for the herd long term.

If that's all we ever do, I agree. I am personally a fan of moving the mortality pressures on the population around. Mixing it up.


But, I also believe that we need to cater to all interests in hunting. WHY aleinate a bunch of hunters you have now, just to recruit some, when you can have your cake and eat it too?

How many hunters will sell out and give up if we go to 3 point in the EK? Certainly NOT one on here! We'll all hunt if it's 3, 6 or spike! And I believe that I could count on one hand the number of EK elk hunters who will be so "discouraged" by increased opportunity that helps to ensure the future of hunting in BC that they sell out.

By alienate, I am referring to "pissing off", dividing the hunting fraternity more than necessary, etc. I think most guys would come around to a short 3pt season if they had time to think about it.


What is wrong with a limited 3pt season, followed by a 6pt season? Does that not cater to everyone?

That's what the proposal was, and it got squashed by the vocal minority. You tell me why. :sad:

All I can say is that I voted for it.


Under a 3pt season, a trophy hunter can hunt big 6pt bulls...I don't dispute that.

What about the selective hunter that would prefer any 6pt over a raghorn? His chances will be greatly diminished.

Diminished? How so? He can still hold out for any 6 point in a 3 point season. There will be a lot less of them after the first year, ergo, his chances are lower. Those 6 points also have less pressure as guys who would otherwise be pursuing them may already be tagged out or pursuing raghorns. Depends entirely on how many hunters descend on the Koots to hunt the 3 or betters! ;)

What about the meat first-selective next hunter that would rather have a better chance at a bigger meat bull, than a spike or 3? Under a 3pt season, the chances at a more mature bull and a real rut hunt/bugling experience are significantly diminished.

That guy shoots the first legal bull he can. He then holds out for something bigger for his next animal (ie a bigger whitey or mulie or moose) once he has his freezer stocked.

I had the best bugling and crashing branches and charging bulls of my entire 31 years of EK elk hunting in the 80s under 3 point regs. We shot raghorns and we shot several 300 - 315 class bulls in those seasons too. Our chances were better. Actually, I only shot one raghorn that I remember, with the rest being 6 points. Go figure.

I think what I am proposing would provide plenty of opportunity for everyone, and address the conservation concerns that many of us here in the Kootenays still have.

My 2c
4ster
.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

[hopsing]

BC has the best hunting program I have seen. It is also the most Liberal. It is almost year round. Don't count on the Government to do anything. Lot's of talk but no action. They will do studies after studies to justify their action or no-action. In the end they will make knee jerk decision, change or legislation to show they are concerned and doing something. Ooops....stats say so. (grin)

Hunter recruitment/retention, Conservation and Management are all separate issues. They need to be manage independently. Greedy Hunters, mis-informed Learned people, Politicians have brainwashed the masses for years. Entice British Columbians how beautiful our Province is for Hunting, Fishing and all Outdoor activities. Not just geared for tourist. Some of you have kids going to school. Some just finish school, (now actively chasing the other genders) You ask them where is Courtney....Fort Renfrew....Dease Lake....Cranbrook....Princeton....Fort St John....Clearwater....Rock Creek....McBride....Quenel....Gold River...ect. Notice I did not mention the popular places. What are those towns industries. Are you getting our ignorance now.

oootay..I'll have to breathe (grin)

[Mr. Dean]

That is my question....is there precedent that shows evidence of these initiatives actually working or are these desperate measures that have no base???

Take a look at the regulations in place, when participaction was at its highest.

[hunter1947]

Just desperate measures........Declining Hunter numbers has more to do with Social changes IMO......Most folks don't have "time" to enjoy the outdoors anymore...heck most are just too lazy to enjoy the outdoors.

Sadly this is being passed on to our youth and so on and so on......each new generation becoming less motivated to historic "pursuits" then the last:-(

Now we Hunt from home on our Intraweb.......... Very true wording Will ,thats exactly the way I see it. In order to get the young ones into the hunting field we are going to have to educate the parents ,not the young people.

[horshur]

Take a look at the regulations in place, when participaction was at its highest.

That is not proof that a reversal will amount to anything......these scientist types want proof that wolves eat caribou FCS. Has There been any proof that liberlizing the seasons have brought back numbers??

[Gateholio]

That is not proof that a reversal will amount to anything......these scientist types want proof that wolves eat caribou FCS. Has There been any proof that liberlizing the seasons have brought back numbers??

My (uneducated) guess based on simply talking to hunters is that restrictive regs (particularly LEH and 1 in 3 seasons etc) breaks up hunting parties and reduces retention of existing hunters, which is also important, as is recruitment.

[dana]

That is about all one can conclude. Retention of the hunters we currently have, the ones just hanging on by a shoestring and a prayer. I really have my doubts whether changes to the current seasons will start to bring lost hunters out of the woodwork.

[Gateholio]

I also think that less restrictive seasons, where a fairly new hunter may stand a better chance of sucessfully killing an animal, will also lead to retention of that hunter.

For instance- If this fairly new hunter only sees 3 pts in a 4pt area or 5 ptsin a 6 pt area, there is a good chance that they will get discouraged. Retaining this type of hunter- One that has already completed CORE, PAL, been out in the woods hunting already- Is probably more important than recruiting brand new ones, since they have already demonstrated a desire to hunt.

It's just that they keep stumbling on restrictive regs, and may say "well, I've been at it 2 years, seen lots of deer and elk, but never managed to get a legal animal- hunting is too hard for me, I'll go back to fishing"

[Fisher-Dude]

That is about all one can conclude. Retention of the hunters we currently have, the ones just hanging on by a shoestring and a prayer. I really have my doubts whether changes to the current seasons will start to bring lost hunters out of the woodwork.

I dunno about that. I was talking with the old boy across the back yard last fall, and he said he and his 3 buddies didn't go moose hunting this year because they couldn't get a draw and couldn't afford to go way up north. He said one is selling out, and he figured that would be the end for all 4 of them. Given an opportunity closer to home, they would hunt. If I told them next year that they could shoot a moose in a GOS at Clearwater, they'd be all over it.

We can sit back and bitch about it and watch it die at an exponential rate, or we can do SOMETHING about it. That's what we hope to achieve with these seasons. The region 8 youth deer season brought kids out to hunt where there was no season before - tells me that it DOES work!

[dana]

The current trend seems to be that those in power today don't really care. Look at the recent decision on the mule deer season in Region 5 as an example. The BCWF (the hunters of this province) put together an absolutely awesome proposal that even included youth seasons, and it was flat out rejected and the late season has now been lost, probably forever, if many of the First Nations get their way. It is because this recent decision, I am now thinking it is all much to do about nothing. We can beat on our drums and bitch and moan all we want, when it boils down to it, it don't matter. The government will do what they will do. I have given up on the idea that things will change for the better and damn, I am tired of being blamed for the current conditions. The 'selfish' argument has been beat to death. It can easily be flogged the other way too. Those who want the point restrictions dropped are just as selfish ain't they? Don't they want something hard to become easy????

[Seeadler]

Want more hunters? People that hunt need to have more kids.

How many people here didn't have a father/uncle/grandfather that hunted or still hunts?

[Gateholio]

How many people here didn't have a father/uncle/grandfather that hunted or still hunts?

My family moved when I was about 2, so my father lost his hunting buddies and never hunted again. No other relatives that hunted.

I don't intend to have children, either.:mrgreen:

[GoatGuy]

If you want somebody to take up an activity you need to make it easily accessible and make it fun - which means the potential for success needs to be there.

If you look at all the jurisdictions who are doing well relative to hunter recruitment and retention you will find access and the opportunity to hunt annually at the top of the list. Conversely you will find places managed to 'quality/trophy' opportunities falling behind - you'll also see a significant rise of non-resident hunting for the avid people with the $. From there you see private property being tied up, access locked down, antler/horn restrictions go up. Sound familiar??????????????????????????????

Just because you saw a couple of stats in one or two papers doesn't mean there aren't a couple thousand pages of studies from other areas that support it.


There are hundreds of jurisdictions to look from all over the world.


People talk about society as being a problem. Guess what? I've BC we've killed off a greater % of our hunters than any other jurisdiction I've looked at in North America. In most jurisdictions you can see a decline over a 10 or 20 year period of a couple percent but in BC you can see 10 or 15% in one year alone. Do you think society changed in one year? Doubtful - you can pull the problems out on an annual basis. It isn't a slow decline - we don't just have a problem recruiting, we kill hunters off on a regular basis.

Studies in the States have shown that in excess of 70% of kids WANT to try hunting but many don't have the opportunity or the access.

By putting up antler restrictions you will kill off hunters - that has also happened in every jurisdiction it's been tried. Alaska and Colorado you can see the difference in one year. In BC it has happened every single time we have put an antler/horn or annual harvest rule (1 in 3).

In Washington State they have 211,000 hunters. That's almost 250% more hunters than we have. Their state is 1/5 of the size of BC and being American a lot of it is private property. On top of being 1/5 the size there population is 156% bigger than ours. So 2.5 times the hunters, 1.5 times the people, and 1/5 the size.

Deer season is 2-3 weeks long and elk season is around 9 days for rifle depending on where you're hunting. In BC those seasons would be LEH or managed for trophy only.

It's a no brainer. When you take a kid out fishing you go to a lake where you're going to catch fish. The majority of the hunting population is and was meat hunters - most of them have never shot a 4 pt mulie and have never shot a 6 pt elk or even a 5 pt for that matter.


It isn't a societal problem. We cut recruitment from >12,000 to 1,800 in one year - sound like a problem with society? :roll: We also killed off the hunters we still had almost 30% in a 3 year period by increasing license fees and moving moose to LEH. Sound like a problem with society? By killing them we killed off their kids. So between killing off 80% of recruitment and 30% of hunters we've killed off damn near our entire recruitment pool. Now we have to look for people outside of the hunting fraternity to recruit and that's tough.

WHEN YOU KILL OFF A HUNTER, YOU KILL OFF HIS KID AND THAT KILLS HUNTING.

To top it off we decided to kill off anywhere from 25%->60% of hunters in the late 90s by instituting antler restrictions. Now we have very average hunters who had never shot anything decent finding half-decent bucks and bulls and they want to protect those seasons for themselves - in a word rediculous. The antler restrictions were not put in as mainstay seasons - they were put in to accelerate the rebound of mule deer and elk.

The wt season in 7B is the biggest farce I've seen out of any jurisdiction.

We have a 6pt season in northern BC in areas where you can't even get into unless you have a pack string or a jet boat and we need them on a 6 pt rest? Areas where we have sheep problems and the discussions are to cut the elk herd by 50%. Never in my life have I ever seen anything so rediculous. If a guy spends the money and time to go all the way up there he should be able to shoot whatever the hell he wants - we will not even make a dent in the population.

HUGE MUs where we have a 10 pt/tri-palm reg where we shoot don't even break into double digit kills in an entire year?

People panicking in areas where the buck:doe ratio is 15:100 when you have a population over carrying capacity???


In the EK anyone who was a half-decent hunter could always find a 6pt in the 80s/90s. My dad used to hunt it and they passed up 3s,4s and 5s on a regular basis. The outfitters who were taking the buckle with 315 class bulls are now taking 340+ class bulls and their success rates have never been higher. My buddy has a pile of elk racks all the way into the 350 range from the 80s and 90s but he knows how to hunt. It wasn't hard finding a 6pt back then if you KNEW how to elk hunt. Today it's easy. When we're in the high country we see a pile of friggen' elk, bulls everyday all the way through October. My buddy went out and had his 6 yr old kill bugle in a 6 pt the first day they went out last year. Another buddy who's a retired outfitter takes his kid out and bugles in a 6pt at the end of the season every year within a day or two. He said the elk hunting has never ever been better in the EK.


I can guarantee to you that if you remove the 6pt and 4pt seasons you will see more hunters. If we do that I can see us cutting the youth seasons and having everyone hunt in the same season. The only reason we have the youth seasons is because it's absolutely ******ed to expect a kid to go hunting looking for a 4 pt in September when his dad has NEVER EVEN SHOT ONE.

Want stats? Ask for them. I've got a couple thousand pages of literature sitting on my desk right now and I can show you where you'll kill off hunters.


Today there is a societal problem. We have big buck magazines, stories of shooting the big one, paying X number of $s, hunters competing with each other, magazines and adds for penned hunts, grow a big buck, stud services for deer, planting crops for deer, antler growth, people giving other guys a hard time for shooting young bucks, "intensive management", and all the rest of the BS associated. We have guys talking about crowding problems in a jurisdiction with one of the lowest hunter densities in the world others bringing their kids up hunting the way they want them to. That is a problem with society - the society of hunting.

Anti-hunters don't even come close to the damage hunters do to themselves.Hunters need to quit thinking of themselves and start looking to the future.

Everyday you think about "how it affects me" is another day you don't think about how it affects your grandkids ability to hunt.

No hunters= no hunting.

It really couldn't be any simpler.

[dukester]

Having grown up in ft st john in the 80's -90's and seeing the extensive management of the elk herds from , transplants to prescribed burns and now over population in some zones. i voted for an increased harvest. i hunt bc every 3 yrs for elk and have many many friends who have seen a huge decline in 6 point elk and a increase in 4-5 pointers. is this a genetic size created from pressure on the 6 point harvest, maybe. 20 yrs ago elk were in several local areas to hunt ,, now they are feeding at the college by fish cr in ft st john. they can be found in every valley and mountain range in the north.
i think more thought does need to be given on how to increase harvest, i feel having 3 seasons bow,muzz-loader,rifle, and leh, would be a start. .. my thought from a flatlander.

[GoatGuy]

BC already has very liberal seasons. Kids that belong to hunting families will probably become hunters with the seasons we have now. As SSSSter said take a newbie hunting now. More liberal seasons will not change society's views on firearms or hunting and this is the reason for the decline in hunters. How many guys that weren't success*** this year will quit hunting? I think not many, so more liberal seasons will not affect the hunters we have now. There is a small chance more liberal seasons might attract a few hunters and when the seasons have to be cut back because of over harvest or 2 bad winters in a row we would probably loose the opportunists. Once again, take a newbie hunting, teach them the proper way and you may have a hunter for life.


The seasons we're discussing were sustainable for 25+ years until they started cutting loose too many cow/calf tags or we had a bad winter in other areas. Today we're loosing wildlife because populations are too high.

The seasons in the EK in the 50s were any elk into November. 4-18 in the west Kootenays in the 80s was for an elk and my buddy has a couple of 350 class bulls from it - there was no shortage of elk.

I find it extremely frustrating to have somebody repeatedly come on here and shoot off at the mouth when they clearly haven't and don't look at harvest data or ask questions/talk to biologists/look at game surveys or have a notion about population dynamics. After firing rhetoric for the past 2 years it would be my hope that you'd have learned something or come with a half decent argument or a question - that has yet to happen.


On top of that you slag people who are trying to learn about bowhunting - alienating a new hunter, well done. That's been done repeatedly and I find that far more offensive that would any anti-hunter could ever do to hunting. That's part of the problem.

You've fired from the hip for quite some time, never supported your arguments - basically been detrimental to anyone who's trying to learn how to hunt. Having passion for hunting is one thing but putting down every single person who makes a mistake while learning how to hunt is as close to childhood as it gets.

To say I'm at my wits end would be an understatement.

[Gateholio]

We have a 6pt season in northern BC in areas where you can't even get into unless you have a pack string or a jet boat and we need them on a 6 pt rest? Areas where we have sheep problems and the discussions are to cut the elk herd by 50%. Never in my life have I ever seen anything so rediculous. If a guy spends the money and time to go all the way up there he should be able to shoot whatever the hell he wants - we will not even make a dent in the population.


Isn't that so true?

A coupel of years ago on a remote horse trip, I misse an opportunity at an elk becuase it had a bit of a weird antler configuratio and I was busy trying to figure out points. I held fire, it moved out of range, I checked it with spotting scope and sure enough it was a nice 6 pt.

I bet that elk and all the ones it was with didn't encounter another hunter that fall.

So why the hell do we need a 6pt restriction?:confused:

:smile:

[Seeadler]

The seasons in the EK in the 50s were any elk into November.

And even back then they were complaining about all the Vancouver hunters coming around.

[Seeadler]

My family moved when I was about 2, so my father lost his hunting buddies and never hunted again. No other relatives that hunted.

You are probably in a small minority.

[GoatGuy]

My family moved when I was about 2, so my father lost his hunting buddies and never hunted again. No other relatives that hunted.

The disbanding of a hunting group has been shown to be one of the most significant factors associated with hunter turnover when other factors remain static and even more so if that hunter didn't grow up hunting.

[Gateholio]

You are probably in a small minority.

Probbaly in my age group, but I bet that is changing.

[dana]

So GG I have to ask, why the F*** aren't the wildlife managers doing anything about it if it is such a crisis???? Why would they reject the proposal put forward by the BCWF for Region 5 mule deer???? In one breath we are told it is all our fault, as we (selfish hunters) don't want change and we want the animals all for ourselves and in the other breath we are told they don't have to and won't listen to us when making their decisions. I strongly feel we are being handed a pile of BS. Why even ask us our ideas if the managers know best? Why even ask us when they are going to do whatever they feel best and hunter recruitment isn't even in their thought processes??? The Region 5 debacle has me doubting the whole thing. If this is the crisis that you say it is, why won't the managers stop dickin around and get to work to fix it???????

[dana]

And I'll ask this once again as the last time it was completely ignored by those in the know. What proposals in the Hunter Recruitment strategy report have been accepted and which ones fell to the floor???? Are we truly going to see some major changes this year or is it all talk and no action?????

[Phreddy]

I've had a number of friends who were avid outdoorsmen/hunters in the 60's and 70's who just got tired of all the crap that you have to go through just to hunt anymore, along with the costs to pay for all the red tape, and finally said enough is enough. It's getting to the point where if you don't have a university degree, you'll never be able to figure out all regs, and then it's only to be able to hunt for a much shorter season for restricted (2pt or 6 pt ) game.As the older hunters disappear, there are fewer and fewer folks willing to mentor younger hunters left, and so we are becoming a dying breed. When you bought a deer tag, it was for a deer, white tail or blacktail or mulie. We're splitting hairs to the point where most folks just say to hell with it and joint the "anti" crowd for something to do;

[Fisher-Dude]

And I'll ask this once again as the last time it was completely ignored by those in the know. What proposals in the Hunter Recruitment strategy report have been accepted and which ones fell to the floor???? Are we truly going to see some major changes this year or is it all talk and no action?????

We got the November youth deer season put through for reg 8 last year. How are YOU doing on that youth grouse season in YOUR region that we spoke about? We've got it on the table for 2008 for reg 8. :wink:

[Onesock]

Washington State 2-3 weeks deer season, 9 days of elk hunting. In BC we 3 months of deer season, 6 weeks of elk season with a rifle and way way more hunters. Who has more opportunity? If you want to go to Washington to hunt, go ahead.

[dana]

FD,
I'm talking about the Strategy for Resident Hunter Recruitment and Retention in British Columbia Report recomendations. Why fight for a logical 1 week extra for grouse during the early youth deer season when the meat and potatoe issues are actually already covered in that report. For instance, can I expect that my 10 year old daughter can have a deer tag this year with her Jr. Hunting Licence or has that idea fallen dead in the water? Having gone through the CORE Bullshit with my son last year, I certainly don't want to put my daughter through that pain right now, unless they gut the CORE as proposed. You see FD, to me, those are the issues that matter. Some of these issues would need to be a part of the Wildlife Act review and ammendment. This should be in front of the Legislature this spring. Will it be???? I personally have my doubts.

[horshur]

My family moved when I was about 2, so my father lost his hunting buddies and never hunted again. No other relatives that hunted.

I don't intend to have children, either.:mrgreen:

Well that's a shame.....you could have passed on a noble pursuit. Thank God the our Elk dont feel the same.

[dana]

It is interesting that when you do speak up, sometimes your voice is heard, but most of the time, they keep just enough BS in there to look like they are indeed doing something, but in reality, they are still doing nothing. I look at all the fighting we did last fall with the ministry over the Caribou Killer grizz. Later in the fall, a second grizz was spotted from the air on yet another caribou. Finally, after much fighting, the grizz tags were indeed increased from 2 to 5 for this spring's hunt. Yet, the season dates haven't changed and it still closes May 31st. Most years, this unit is still snow bound during that timeframe. Especially since there is very little new logging being done in the area. This winter we are at close to 130% of normal for our snowpack, so I doubt those extra grizz tags will be filled. The Ministry looks like they have done something proactive, and yet, they haven't done anything to help the situation or save the caribou.

[Gateholio]

Well that's a shame.....you could have passed on a noble pursuit. Thank God the our Elk dont feel the same.

Just because I dont' *personally* want to have children, does not mean that I will not pass things on. Don't jump to conclusions.

[Gateholio]

It is interesting that when you do speak up, sometimes your voice is heard, but most of the time, they keep just enough BS in there to look like they are indeed doing something, but in reality, they are still doing nothing. I look at all the fighting we did last fall with the ministry over the Caribou Killer grizz. Later in the fall, a second grizz was spotted from the air on yet another caribou. Finally, after much fighting, the grizz tags were indeed increased from 2 to 5 for this spring's hunt. Yet, the season dates haven't changed and it still closes May 31st. Most years, this unit is still snow bound during that timeframe. Especially since there is very little new logging being done in the area. This winter we are at close to 130% of normal for our snowpack, so I doubt those extra grizz tags will be filled. The Ministry looks like they have done something proactive, and yet, they haven't done anything to help the situation or save the caribou.

Unfortunately, all I can say is "Welcome to dealing with Gv't."

Dealing wiht gv't is like picking burrs out of fleece or wool. Takes a long time, but with every pick you make a bit of progress, and in the end (hopefully) you are sucessful.

[Onesock]

Also---- By looking at Washington State hunting seasons bowhunting seasons out number rifle seasons by quite a few days. Does this mean that bow seasons are a recruitment tool? The stats from Washington say so!!!

[Gateholio]

Also---- By looking at Washington State hunting seasons bowhunting seasons out number rifle seasons by quite a few days. Does this mean that bow seasons are a recruitment tool? The stats from Washington say so!!!

No, it means that Washington states bowhunting season are longer than rifle seasons.

[Will]

No, it means that Washington states bowhunting season are longer than rifle seasons.
:lol:...............

[boxhitch]

and way way more hunters. .I doubt that ;)

[boxhitch]

Does this mean that bow seasons are a recruitment tool? The stats from Washington say so!!!No, I don't assume that. I assume that due to overcrowding of hunting areas, short range tools are implemented for hunter safety.

[boxhitch]

That is my question....is there precedent that shows evidence of these initiatives actually working or are these desperate measures that have no base???
desperate measures ? NO.
A relaxing of onerous restrictions, that have no scientific basis, that would allow increased participation ? YES

[GoatGuy]

Also---- By looking at Washington State hunting seasons bowhunting seasons out number rifle seasons by quite a few days. Does this mean that bow seasons are a recruitment tool? The stats from Washington say so!!!

Talk to the managers down there and they'll tell you the exact opposite.

As always, an uninformed opinion.