6pt Season vs. 3pt. Season in the EK and Elsewhere

[wetcoasthunter]

Just curious. I know the choices try to simplify a complex topic, but its the best I could come up with.

[rocksteady]

What is the intention of this poll????

It may be a democratic poll, but in reality, I don't believe that it will sway the opinion of the bIologists/MOE and thus the regulations....

By the way I voted NO - It may ruin the quality of the hunt, as there were no other applicable options such as "no - lets try another conservative approah" or "maybe - depending on what the proposals are" or "lets do a little more research so we can make an informed decision"....

[Kechika]

I voted no.Ya kill the young bulls your killing the future.Look at what happened in Region 5 with the anybuck season through the rut."Hey we're down on bucks....lets shut the season down during the rut"

[DWH]

I voted no because I think it should be something in between. Not a jump to 3pt and not applicable to all areas.

[Fisher-Dude]

I voted yes because there is no conservation concern.

[Kechika]

I voted yes because there is no conservation concern.

After the Hordes of Lowermainland/Island Yahoos there will be

[budismyhorse]

I voted yes because there is no conservation concern.

Hello Fisher,

could we possibly get that statement in writing? I have heard mixed reviews now. Elkaholic quoted Dunbar as saying that he is in favour of a limited 3pt season combined with a 6pt season.

So if there is NO conservation concern over a blanket 3pt season, Can you provided us with a reference to that? Is that in a report I haven't read.

BTW, I have calls into that office for their explanation on this.

cheers!

[Fisher-Dude]

After the Hordes of Lowermainland/Island Yahoos there will be

No fear. They are all going to Clearwater this year. Lots of big bucks there I hear. :wink:

We had twice the number of Surrey Warriors in the EK in the 80s with a sustainable 3 point hunt. Won't make any difference today.

[Fisher-Dude]

Bud, the proposal from the MoE would never have hit the table if there were any conservation concern. That's fundamental to game management proposals. As a bio, you should know that. :wink:

[BCrams]

I voted yes. Next to white-tailed deer, elk are one of the most prolific game species in North America. In British Columbia, the herds are healthy and expanding (i.e., regions 5, 6, 7A and not far behind - region 3).

With no conservation concern for Rocky Mountain Elk, we can also remove the West Kootenay LEH hunt to a GOS.

[Ron.C]

I'll go elk hunting regardless, but I voted yes to a 3 point season as long as the herds can sustain one. And I don't know why some people feel that "hords of mainlanders and Islanders" would add to any conservation issue. I'm sure there would be plenty of three point racks hanging in peoples garages in the Kootenays by seasons end!

[Fisher-Dude]

With no conservation concern for Rocky Mountain Elk, we can also remove the West Kootenay LEH hunt to a GOS.

Bud, give Garth Mowat (Sr Bio for WK) a call and ask him about elk and conservation concerns. He believes the 100 : 1 WK LEH can be dumped in favour of a GOS. That's quite a move from ridiculous odds LEH to a GOS, yet you have concerns about fine-tuning an existing GOS in the EK?

Here's his contact info:


Garth Mowat Sr. Wildlife Biologist (Nelson) Telephone:250 354-6341 Organization Code:ENV Organization Unit:KOOTFSHWLD - Fish & Wildlife Facsimile:250 354-6332 Garth.Mowat@gov.bc.ca

Address:#401 - 333 Victoria Street
Nelson BC
V1L4K3
CANADA

[Kechika]

Ive noticed 15 people have voted yes so far.Speak up all you meat hunters:tongue:

[budismyhorse]

Bud, give Garth Mowat (Sr Bio for WK) a call and ask him about elk and conservation concerns. He believes the 100 : 1 WK LEH can be dumped in favour of a GOS. That's quite a move from ridiculous odds LEH to a GOS, yet you have concerns about fine-tuning an existing GOS in the EK?

Here's his contact info:


Garth Mowat Sr. Wildlife Biologist (Nelson) Telephone:250 354-6341 Organization Code:ENV Organization Unit:KOOTFSHWLD - Fish & Wildlife Facsimile:250 354-6332 Garth.Mowat@gov.bc.ca

Address:#401 - 333 Victoria Street
Nelson BC
V1L4K3
CANADA

Thanks Fisher, I will......

[Steeleco]

Ive noticed 15 people have voted yes so far.Speak up all you meat hunters:tongue:


OK OK!!! I don't even hunt Elk (yet!!) and I'm from the uneducated opinion group. That said if we hunt only 6 pt animals, how long before there's only really big 5's left.
If a herd can support the taking of lets say 10% of it's bulls, what does it matter how many points? If you desire 6 cool, if you desire meat also cool. And the Elk win overall IMHO!!

[Stone Sheep Steve]

For everyone that supports staying under a 6pt season...............

Someone help me out here with regards to elk biology...............We repeatedly keep hearing about "hoards" of 5 points being called in..........so what's the scoop with antler developement of bull elk?? Many of these 5 point elk are herd bulls?....many are not??

So my questions is (are).........do many bulls go from a light 5 point into a 6 pt the following year?? .....or do most stay as 5pts?....do most bulls go from a 4pt into a 6pt??

My point is..... how about changing the 6pt reg to a 5 pt and remove the pressure off the 6pt gene?? Are the 5pts everyone is seeing decently mature animals??

Having said that.....I support moving to a 3pt season if there is no conservation issue:smile:.

How about changing the LEH areas in the W. Koots into a 6pt GOS so all the trophy hunters head there and change the E Koots into a 3pt season so the meat hunters head there:-)? Problem solved;-)

SSS

[Frango]

After the Hordes of Lowermainland/Island Yahoos there will be
Not to be confused with the yahoos where you live.

[Mr. Dean]

IF no conservation concern.... Why not?
Read the question for what it is; not what could be read into it.

IMO a lot of our regulations are long over-due in needing a revamp.
Conservation works both ways. There's time for protection and there's time for harvest.

Me thinks its Harvest Time.

[wetcoasthunter]

After the Hordes of Lowermainland/Island Yahoos there will be


Ya, you're right. All hunters that leave there homes to spend some time elsewhere in THIER province are yahoos, theres no such thing as a local yahoo.:roll:

[GoatGuy]

I think this is fairly straight forward once we get over the semantics
and drama - hunters will support a season as long as there's no conservation concern.

Quality of hunt needs to be defined.

For some it's about the ability to hunt
Others the ability to see a pile of game
Others the ability to hunt with a reasonable chance of success
Others so that they can hunt with their friends every year
Others where they don't see any hunters
Others where they can drive to the spot


It all depends on the hunter - unfortunately you will not include all hunters in a 6pt season, that's just a fact of life.

[Kechika]

Not to be confused with the yahoos where you live.


Those guys from Nanimo are the worst.I dont know how many times Ive been moose hunting and seen camps full of yahoos from the coast..Didint mean to offend but these clowns do ruin it for all the good guys.Sad to say but when you open a season like that the trigger/kill happy "Yahoos"come out of the wood work.

[Fisher-Dude]

Those guys from Nanimo are the worst.I dont know how many times Ive been moose hunting and seen camps full of yahoos from the coast..Didint mean to offend but these clowns do ruin it for all the good guys.Sad to say but when you open a season like that the trigger/kill happy "Yahoos"come out of the wood work.

What do you care? You're selling out and taking up knitting anyways.

BTW, how many holes have you dug in the back yard wondering where she hid your ball$?

[hunter1947]

I had to say no on this question ,the two were not what I was looking for. There should be opening for a short time for 3 points or better on LEH. and leave the 6 point restriction in place ,open the season when the rut is almost over ,Oct first.

[BCrams]

I had to say no on this question ,the two were not what I was looking for. There should be opening for a short time for 3 points or better on LEH. and leave the 6 point restriction in place ,open the season when the rut is almost over ,Oct first.


If there is 'no' conservation concern. Why would we go to 3 pts on LEH?

If there is 'no' conservation concern. Why would we leave the 6 pt restriction in?

Thats the key word. No conservation concern. It has been established, there is no conservation concern for Rocky Mountain Elk and therefore the restrictions you propose are not needed. Especially LEH.

[eastkoot]

I voted for Hillary Clinton.. Your response should be a plain YES or NO. Different people have different reasons for their opinion on this matter.

Who are those with NO concerns and should we listen to them this time around ?? Ray Demarchi had no concerns once upon a time !!

[rocksteady]

[quote=eastkoot;244638]Ray Demarchi quote]


BING ! BING ! BING !!!!!!

We have a winner !!!! EASTKOOT said todays secret word.......

He has won a full year supply of Rice-a-roni "The San Fransisco treat" and this beautiful Toaster Oven.....

the 2 most hated words ever spoken to an east kootenay outdoors person !!! See top quote..

[Fisher-Dude]

I'd like to add my name to the list of those who don't like what Dimarchi did either. Do I win a prize too?

PS - it may shock you to know that eastkoot is my hunting partner, and brother...that's us below in the "slaughter":rolleyes: days of 3 point season, packing out his first elk, a FIVE point we packed 4 1/2 miles! :lol:

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e70/Fisher-Dude/AAAugscan0001.jpg


What did getting that elk mean to us young bucks? After years of trying, it gave us a taste of success. We're still at it!

[wetcoasthunter]

Who are those with NO concerns and should we listen to them this time around ?? Ray Demarchi had no concerns once upon a time !!

Ya, since one guy screwed up once we can never trust anyone ever again, keep the 6pt season FOREVER!!:roll:.

That kind of attitude is simple fear mongering. Look, if the data is there, and it says the herd can sustain a more liberal season then it should be done. Done for the good of the majority of hunters, not the minority looking to "protect" something that belongsto all hunters, not just them.

We have to try and see how it turns out

"Progress always involves risk, you can't steal second base and keep your foot on first"

[rocksteady]

[quote=Fisher-Dude;244671]I'd like to add my name to the list of those who don't like what Dimarchi did either. Do I win a prize too?



Sorry only one grand prize available...

...Please play again next week when we have a new hidden word prize...Enter as often as you like.....Employees and spouses of BHC are not eligible to win, nor is anyone outside of the Province of British Columbia, including the Province of Quebec and the contiguos United States including Alaska, Hawaii or Porto Rico....All rights reserved...Rice-a-roni is copyrighted and use of our stupid trolly car to sell any other brand of rice type food is strictly prohibitted...

[RMG]

The only way one can logically vote here is Yes. For a No vote would indicate that you do not believe that one can have a QUALITY hunt, hunting for anything but large trophy animals. I believe that the quality of the hunt has nothing to do with the size of the animal harvested, and often many of our highest quality hunts are skunk hunts.

[bighornbob]

I'd like to add my name to the list of those who don't like what Dimarchi did either. Do I win a prize too?

PS - it may shock you to know that eastkoot is my hunting partner, and brother...that's us below in the "slaughter" days of 3 point season, packing out his first elk, a FIVE point we packed 4 1/2 miles!

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e70/Fisher-Dude/AAAugscan0001.jpg

What did getting that elk mean to us young bucks? After years of trying, it gave us a taste of success. We're still at it!


Were the hats on sale 2 for 1:eek::lol::lol:

BHB

[budismyhorse]

Easy now Fisher! no one has ever called it the Slaughter days because of 3pt season.......it would be a slaughter now is the argument.

great pic ! I love those old trapper nelson's, packed my first muley buck off a mountain with one. makes me appreciate the new packs of today.

why didn't you guys skin and hock those quarters?! You might have saved 10 pounds there.

[brotherjack]

it would be a slaughter now is the argument.


Yeah... and....? Even if we suppose that's true - if the slaughter is sustainable (and all the data I'm aware of indicates that it is), then what's the problem with having one?

[rocksteady]

Darn you BroJ---You started all of this and then left like a ghost...Have we just been Punk'd??

[Fisher-Dude]

Were the hats on sale 2 for 1:eek::lol::lol:

BHB

Alpine Helicopters hats! I think we slept with those treasures on our heads when we first got them! :tongue:



why didn't you guys skin and hock those quarters?! You might have saved 10 pounds there.

'Cause we were young and tough, figured it would keep the meat clean, and skinnin' was for wussies! Now I'm payin' for it with wrecked knees LOL!

[GCK]

BCrams

If the LEH was removed in the West Kootenays, it would take less than three years and that world class elk hunting would be gone. Those elk have never had pressure (since they were introduced to that area) like they do in the EK and if a GOS was implemented, then that huge bull populations would decrease very fast. Every elk hunter I know would flawk to the West Kootenays for a chance at one of those big bulls. I know I would. There would be so much competition between hunters that I would not be suprised if someone gets killed or seriously hurt, either getting shot or a fight between hunters arguing over "their" hunting spot. You know how competitive elk hunting is.

If you want to create more hunting opportunity then put out more LEH tags in the West Kootenay. Or better yet, change the LEH system to the Alberta system, and then everyone has a chance at these trophy elk.

Look at Montana, they have some of the healthiest herds of elk, they support their elk population by growing "quality" elk. Feeding programs in the winter range are just one of them. Another is how they allow hunters to hunt. Bow season to start, then muzzle loader season, then finally is rifle season. Our season here in BC is way to long, where else in the world can you hunt for three months (all species included), that is way to long.

The way to create more hunting opportunity is to increase the size of the population. I think, and this is my opinion, that all elk, except for 6 point or greater, should be on some sort of LEH system. For example: cow/calf as group, spike, two or three point as a group, and 4 and 5 points as a group. Give out the appropriate number of tags to sustain the population. Then a certain number of animals from all age classes can be culled. With mandatory reporting, the MoE can gather better numbers, which could be adjusted accordingly. Everyone still has a chance to shoot any elk (greater than six points) but you also have a chance to get an LEH for one of the other catagories. Do you all understand what I am trying to say. This would also create more big bulls rather than the cooker cutter 6 point. If some one shoots a smaller bull, well then that is one less 6 point shot allowing it to grow one more year. The number of tags for each group would have to be specific to each area and the number of elk in that area. The Bull River numbers would be different than the south country or Whiteswan.

I would also like to see a report that says that opening up a three point is "not" a conservation concern.

Anyways, some food for thought. This is my first post on this website, but I have been reading the posts on this topic for sometime, I just had to get into the action.

Thanks

[brotherjack]

Darn you BroJ---You started all of this and then left like a ghost...Have we just been Punk'd??

Na, I'm still around (once in a while anyway). Just got a complicated life at the moment - not much time or energy left over to sit around and write long winded rants these days.


Besides, I think I said everything I had to say on the subject several times over already. :)

[Fisher-Dude]

BCrams

If the LEH was removed in the West Kootenays, it would take less than three years and that world class elk hunting would be gone. Those elk have never had pressure (since they were introduced to that area) like they do in the EK and if a GOS was implemented, then that huge bull populations would decrease very fast. Every elk hunter I know would flawk to the West Kootenays for a chance at one of those big bulls. I know I would. There would be so much competition between hunters that I would not be suprised if someone gets killed or seriously hurt, either getting shot or a fight between hunters arguing over "their" hunting spot. You know how competitive elk hunting is.

So why does the senior wildlife biologist there say there is NO conservation concern for moving off LEH and on to GOS? Do you know something he doesn't?

If you want to create more hunting opportunity then put out more LEH tags in the West Kootenay. Or better yet, change the LEH system to the Alberta system, and then everyone has a chance at these trophy elk.

LEH has been proven to kill off hunter numbers. If we doubled the LEH tags in the WK, we would have 50:1 odds instead of 100:1 odds. That would change NOTHING from a recruitment and retention standpoint.

Look at Montana, they have some of the healthiest herds of elk, they support their elk population by growing "quality" elk. Feeding programs in the winter range are just one of them. Another is how they allow hunters to hunt. Bow season to start, then muzzle loader season, then finally is rifle season. Our season here in BC is way to long, where else in the world can you hunt for three months (all species included), that is way to long.

Too long? According to whom? Another way to decrease participation is to restrict season lengths. The herds here are growing DESPITE 3 month long seasons, so why the heck would we restrict it?

The way to create more hunting opportunity is to increase the size of the population. I think, and this is my opinion, that all elk, except for 6 point or greater, should be on some sort of LEH system.

The populations are already huge. LEH would kill off hunter numbers. Killing off hunter numbers will mean the end of all hunting in BC. You're your own worst enemy!

For example: cow/calf as group, spike, two or three point as a group, and 4 and 5 points as a group. Give out the appropriate number of tags to sustain the population. Then a certain number of animals from all age classes can be culled. With mandatory reporting, the MoE can gather better numbers, which could be adjusted accordingly. Everyone still has a chance to shoot any elk (greater than six points) but you also have a chance to get an LEH for one of the other catagories. Do you all understand what I am trying to say. This would also create more big bulls rather than the cooker cutter 6 point. If some one shoots a smaller bull, well then that is one less 6 point shot allowing it to grow one more year. The number of tags for each group would have to be specific to each area and the number of elk in that area. The Bull River numbers would be different than the south country or Whiteswan.

Who wants to create more big bulls? Certainly the 90%+ hunters who are meat hunters don't. The 3% who are trophy hunters may agree with you. What about the public good then?

I would also like to see a report that says that opening up a three point is "not" a conservation concern.

What bio in his right mind would propose a 3 point season in the wake of the DiMarchi fiasco if he/she weren't 110% that there were no conservation concerns? Answer carefully.

Anyways, some food for thought. This is my first post on this website, but I have been reading the posts on this topic for sometime, I just had to get into the action.

Thanks

................

[BCrams]

BCrams

If the LEH was removed in the West Kootenays, it would take less than three years and that world class elk hunting would be gone. Those elk have never had pressure (since they were introduced to that area) like they do in the EK and if a GOS was implemented, then that huge bull populations would decrease very fast. Every elk hunter I know would flawk to the West Kootenays for a chance at one of those big bulls. I know I would. There would be so much competition between hunters that I would not be suprised if someone gets killed or seriously hurt, either getting shot or a fight between hunters arguing over "their" hunting spot. You know how competitive elk hunting is.

A non issue. Do you realize how tough the country is in the West Kootenays is to begin with? Most guys that would "flawk" to the area just wouldn't have what it takes to hunt elk there to begin with. The initial pressure is always a given and yes the hard reality is some good bulls will be shot. It will not be the demise of the WK bull elk hunt.

I seem to recal the West Koots produced one of the largest bull elk ever - and that wasn't in a LEH area. There are monster bull elk still in that area but its so gawd awful to hunt that one has a tough time to hunt them anyways let alone shoot one.

If you want to create more hunting opportunity then put out more LEH tags in the West Kootenay. Or better yet, change the LEH system to the Alberta system, and then everyone has a chance at these trophy elk.

LEH does not help hunter recruitment. Its been explained 10x over how the Alberta system will not work in BC.

Look at Montana, they have some of the healthiest herds of elk, they support their elk population by growing "quality" elk. Feeding programs in the winter range are just one of them. Another is how they allow hunters to hunt. Bow season to start, then muzzle loader season, then finally is rifle season. Our season here in BC is way to long, where else in the world can you hunt for three months (all species included), that is way to long.

And the hunting demographic in the states is worse than our situation. We don't want to go in that direction of splitting up all these seasons. It does not address hunter recruitment. Split the seasons like Montana and we will likely have less hunters than we do now. The avid guys like yourself probably will just go buy a bow, a muzzleloader and still use a rifle. Meanwhile the average guys and Dads out there won't bother.

The way to create more hunting opportunity is to increase the size of the population.

Why would you want more elk than the land base can support?? Obviously Montana has too many elk if they have to supplement a winter feeding program.

I think, and this is my opinion, that all elk, except for 6 point or greater, should be on some sort of LEH system.

I won't begrudge you from having an opinion. However facts and what LEH does to hunter numbers and recruitment will say "Look, we need to do something." LEH is not the answer.


Anyways, some food for thought. This is my first post on this website, but I have been reading the posts on this topic for sometime, I just had to get into the action.

Thanks

Welcome aboard!!!

[Stone Sheep Steve]

I don't have anything to add except by offering sympathy to everyone's employers for this week. Good thing you guys are valuable employees:biggrin:!


SSS

[Fisher-Dude]

I don't have anything to add except by offering sympathy to everyone's employers for this week. Good thing you guys are valuable employees:biggrin:!


SSS

What time do you get off work today SSS? :roll::biggrin:

[budismyhorse]

well said! OWCH!!
good thing I can work weekends!

[Stone Sheep Steve]

What time do you get off work today SSS? :roll::biggrin:


I'm sitting at home drinking a beer. My work day is done...............well, I'm home.....without beer....but I'm home....too poor for beer:frown:.

SSS

[Fisher-Dude]

I'm sitting at home drinking a beer. My work day is done...............well, I'm home.....without beer....but I'm home....too poor for beer:frown:.

SSS

Maybe you can have some of that wine that you swiped from work? :biggrin:

[Stone Sheep Steve]

F/D-Good thing you work for a private company or I, as a taxpayer, would feel very ripped-off!:p

Hey! I paid the tax-portion of that wine so it's all mine!!:-P

That reminds me...I have a bottle open from marinading a roast last night....I'll be right back:smile:!

SSS

[Jelvis]

I voted a resounding, " YES " hey over here "YES" again, I think it would cause latent hunters to come out of the closet, and increase hunting for the areas holding these magnificent animals. Better cash infusion into local economy and give a person a chance and a reason to drive farther for adventure and lots of premium quality game meats. When successful. Yes Yes Yes. Jel Yes

[bighornbob]

If you want to create more hunting opportunity then put out more LEH tags in the West Kootenay. Or better yet, change the LEH system to the Alberta system, and then everyone has a chance at these trophy elk.


Lets use the alberta system for example on WK elk. Zone 4-08, 100:1 odds this past year 5 tags were given out. So using the alberta system I would be guarenteed a tag in 20 years, oh goody cant wait till I am 56 to go elk hunting hope my back will still be able to pack an animal out.

Now look at a kid who's 16 and just completed his CORE. He has to pay $6.00 a year till he's 36 to hunt elk. Oh that it keep em into hunting. He will have wished he never took CORE and just spent the money on a brand new IPOD.

What works in one area does not mean it work here.

BHB

[GCK]

Lets use the alberta system for example on WK elk. Zone 4-08, 100:1 odds this past year 5 tags were given out. So using the alberta system I would be guarenteed a tag in 20 years, oh goody cant wait till I am 56 to go elk hunting hope my back will still be able to pack an animal out.

Now look at a kid who's 16 and just completed his CORE. He has to pay $6.00 a year till he's 36 to hunt elk. Oh that it keep em into hunting. He will have wished he never took CORE and just spent the money on a brand new IPOD.

What works in one area does not mean it work here.

BHBYou would have increase the number of tags given out. At least by 4 or 5 times the current number. If if you don't use the Alberta system, just increase the number of LEH tags and give us a chance, but at the same time having some control.

[chevy]

nononononononononononononononononononononono

[rocksteady]

nononononononononononononononononononononono


Are you sure that's your final answer????:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:

[Timbow]

Just out of curiosity, look and read the posts mainly from the guys who live in the Kootaneys.....the vast majority of them voted "NO" (based only on the guys who commented) on a simple question.

The way I read your "NO" posts, sounds to me like you own or have a vast investment on the elk. :biggrin:

[alremkin]

I'd like to add my name to the list of those who don't like what Dimarchi did either. Do I win a prize too?

PS - it may shock you to know that eastkoot is my hunting partner, and brother...that's us below in the "slaughter" days of 3 point season, packing out his first elk, a FIVE point we packed 4 1/2 miles!

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e70/Fisher-Dude/AAAugscan0001.jpg


What did getting that elk mean to us young bucks? After years of trying, it gave us a taste of success. We're still at it!

In '86 I shot a 5 point 6 miles from where I could park my truck. Luckily it was cool that year and we were able to pack it out in 3 days. As, I posted in another thread on this subject the meat was so tender that with a stout fork I could cut the meat of the shoulder roast. How much more difficult should it be for a BC resident to hunt bull elk?:eek: I quit hunting the EK when the 6 point rule came in as to have a reasonable chance of success horses would be needed putting elk hunting out of the price range of the average hunter.:icon_frow

Now except for region 7-50 the whole province is 6 point or better. We need some kind of compromise between the trophy hunting and meat hunting of elk to give the average BC resident hunter a chance for bull elk. Hunter 47 has presented some reasonable options. A short LEH early in the season when elk are in prime condition would allow BC residents a chance at bull elk in the EK where equipment like jet boats and horses arn't necessary.

[BoomBoom]

...we've had a thread before on this issue.

No way to 3 pt!

...GOS for smaller animals ie/ 3 pt, brings on more hunters with the perception that it is easier/more opportunity(perhaps?)to get an animal. Case in point; open buck season vs 4 pt. Another case in point; EK before the 6 pt season.

...too many hunters in an area lowers the "quality" of hunt for me..:mad:


...boom.....

[mark]

Although I voted yes to the poll, I would rather see it changed to 5 point instead of 3. A step in the right direction but a little less drastic, this would increase harvest odds alot, while still maintaining some trophy potential! Up north as well!

[Poguebilt]

I think 5 point would be a better option... but what do I know.. im from the kootenays! :roll:

[Fisher-Dude]

I'm adding this valuable tidbit to these threads for all to read:

There is another study that should be read, that was written by John Thornton of the Wildlife Branch:

http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/fw/ds/docs/...onStrategy.pdf (http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/fw/ds/docs/070607_HunterRecruitment-RetentionStrategy.pdf)

One of his key findings:

"In general, wildlife managers should adopt a quantity over quality philosophy for deer, moose and elk. Hunting success is strongly related to continued participation, and there are far more hunters that are happy to shoot an average animal than there are hunters whose specific purpose is to bag a trophy. Really skilled hunters are capable of finding impressive animals if they put their minds to it, but hunters of lesser skill find their chances for success greatly limited by trophy management practices. Furthermore, managing for animals with impressive antlers pushes opportunity away from general open seasons and towards Limited Entry hunting, restricting participation even further."

[6616]

I voted yes because there is no conservation concern.

Me too, and if a concern develops it's very easy to further revise the reg. Mass destruction will not occur in one or two years. It's very difficult to see a conservation concern developing unless too many antlerless elk are killed.

[rocksteady]

Just out of curiosity, look and read the posts mainly from the guys who live in the Kootaneys.....the vast majority of them voted "NO" (based only on the guys who commented) on a simple question.

The way I read your "NO" posts, sounds to me like you own or have a vast investment on the elk. :biggrin:

I do not own the elk or have a vast investment....It is just something that I treasure and am passionate about and want any changes to be fully thought out, analyzed and implimented carefully.....

Not to pick on the fellows at the coast/island but looking back in retrospect do you not wish you had aired your concerns more when there was debate occurring with the Pacific Salmon fishery???

You don't own it either, however if you are passionate to lobby for long term sustainability and management, I applaud you...I am not a fisherman (too boring for me) however, so I don't have an opinion how it should be managed, if you do I support you for asking questions and getting solid responses before jumping on board???

I realize that salmon are not really a great analogy, but hope you get my point....

[hunter1947]

[quote=BCrams;244629]If there is 'no' conservation concern. Why would we go to 3 pts on LEH?

If there is 'no' conservation concern. Why would we leave the 6 pt restriction in?

Thats the key word. No conservation concern. It has been established, there is no conservation concern for Rocky Mountain Elk and therefore the restrictions you propose are not needed. Especially LEH. To make a long story short I myself would want to conserv elk buy a shorter season and put the season for the opening of elk at the start of Nov and have a one week season on LEH for elk at the end of Nov ,that to me is conserving. Opening up the one week for LEH for 3 or better late in the year ,thats giving the meat hunters that do get picked a chance to put elk in there freezers. Having an LEH will not have a big impact on the elk in the EK ,buy having a one week LEH the management can control the numbers overall. There would be about the same amount of bulls being shot overall even after the one week of 3 points or better. Buy opening the season for 4 weeks has cut 2 full weeks off the season that has been in place for as long as I can remember ,this would balance the one week on 3 or bigger especially being on LEH In fact I think that the population of elk will multiply as the years go buy. In a overall pic. I think Buy doing this you would have more peregrinated cows that would give birth in the spring and to me thats a conservation concern.:wink:.

[hunter1947]

[quote=BCrams;244629]If there is 'no' conservation concern. Why would we go to 3 pts on LEH?

If there is 'no' conservation concern. Why would we leave the 6 pt restriction in?

Thats the key word. No conservation concern. It has been established, there is no conservation concern for Rocky Mountain Elk and therefore the restrictions you propose are not needed. Especially LEH. To make a long story short I myself would want to conserv elk buy a shorter season and put the season for the opening of elk at the start of Nov and have a one week season on LEH for elk at the end of Nov ,that to me is conserving. Opening up the one week for LEH for 3 or better late in the year ,thats giving the meat hunters that do get picked a chance to put elk in there freezers. Having an LEH will not have a big impact on the elk in the EK ,buy having a one week LEH the management can control the numbers overall. There would be about the same amount of bulls being shot overall even after the one week of 3 points or better. Buy opening the season for 4 weeks has cut 2 full weeks off the season that has been in place for as long as I can remember ,this would balance the one week on 3 or bigger especially being on LEH In fact I think that the population of elk will multiply as the years go buy. In a overall pic. I think Buy doing this you would have more peregrinated cows that would give birth in the spring and to me thats a conservation concern.:wink:. Sorry BcRam I went back to far and erased the quote and now it looks like your wording is part of mine at the beginning ,I don't know how to fix this or I would http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/images/icons/icon11.gif.

[Brambles]

As far as the East Kootenays goes

I think something needs to be changed to help combat the 5 point gene, targeting 6 points or larger does come with its own set of problems.

Fisher_Dude said it best when he said that the hunting pressure on 6 pt bulls is causing the smaller bulls to do the majority of the breeding.

Just thinking out loud here but,

What about a 5 point and lower for the peak of the rut and 6 point season the rest of the time. This will cull out those genetic 5 points, put pressure on the smaller bulls, while allowing the larger 6 point and better bulls to do the breeding, it will fill freezers for the meat hunters and allow more trophy oriented hunters the ability to pursue the larger elk if they desire.

[hunter1947]

WELL WHEN THEY IMPLEMENTED 6 POINT SEASON ,THATS WHEN IT ALL STARTED ONCE A 5 ALWAYS A 5. What is happening its easy to see buy not being able to shot a 5 point or less ,these big 5x5 will live on and bread with cows ,the cows will give berth in the spring time ,if it is a young bull that is born ,it will likely be no bigger in antler growth then a 5x5 set of antlers in its life time. That's why buy opening a 3 or better for a week will take out some of these bulls that will always be a 5x5 and balance out itself overall..

[hunter1947]

I have never seen that many big 5x5 in the area I have hunted over the years ,something is going wrong and the only thing they have changed is having a 6 point restriction 11 years ago ????? :???:.

[Brambles]

I have a friend that hunts the East kootenays for elk, has been for 25 years or more. One year he's moaning that all he's seen was 5 points, the next year he says they seen alot of 6 pts, the next year, 5 points again.

I think a large portion of these 5 points are becoming 6 points, maybe late bloomers but it does show for a potential problem.

And during the years that they see lots of 6 pts, lots of 6 pts get shot, then your back to the 5ers again.

[hunter1947]

I have hunted my area and others for 38 years now in the EK ,I spent 5 weeks in the bush last year and I have been seeing more and more 5x5 every year ,and 50% of these bulls are matcher bulls, the other 50% of them are in matcher bulls that could develop into a 6 next year ??????.

[Timbow]

[quote=BCrams;244629]If there is 'no' conservation concern. Why would we go to 3 pts on LEH?

If there is 'no' conservation concern. Why would we leave the 6 pt restriction in?

Thats the key word. No conservation concern. It has been established, there is no conservation concern for Rocky Mountain Elk and therefore the restrictions you propose are not needed. Especially LEH. To make a long story short I myself would want to conserv elk buy a shorter season and put the season for the opening of elk at the start of Nov and have a one week season on LEH for elk at the end of Nov ,that to me is conserving. Opening up the one week for LEH for 3 or better late in the year ,thats giving the meat hunters that do get picked a chance to put elk in there freezers. Having an LEH will not have a big impact on the elk in the EK ,buy having a one week LEH the management can control the numbers overall. There would be about the same amount of bulls being shot overall even after the one week of 3 points or better. Buy opening the season for 4 weeks has cut 2 full weeks off the season that has been in place for as long as I can remember ,this would balance the one week on 3 or bigger especially being on LEH In fact I think that the population of elk will multiply as the years go buy. In a overall pic. I think Buy doing this you would have more peregrinated cows that would give birth in the spring and to me thats a conservation concern.:wink:.


Looking at your picture, it won't work for everyone. Does your picture include putting the guiding industry that are in the EK on this same two, one week seasons? As a meat hunter, I much prefer the game meat from early September as the animals are in much better condition. How does it address the ranching/farming industry? etc....

Those two short seasons won't address proper management. If the herds can support a GOS, then it should be opened no matter the antler configeration.

My two bits.

[hunter1947]

[quote=hunter1947;245096]


Looking at your picture, it won't work for everyone. Does your picture include putting the guiding industry that are in the EK on this same two, one week seasons? As a meat hunter, I much prefer the game meat from early September as the animals are in much better condition. How does it address the ranching/farming industry? etc....

Those two short seasons won't address proper management. If the herds can support a GOS, then it should be opened no matter the antler configeration.

My two bits. As for the guides the season would not effect them ,they have a business to run. There season would not change ,as for farming industry ,I don't know what you mean buy this ???. As for Sept we cant have the cake with the ice cream on it at all times ,you have to drop one in order to get the other. PS I have eaten lots of elk meat that has been shot in the latter part of Oct and it is as good eating to me as being shot in the latter part of Sept. http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/images/icons/icon7.gif.

[Fisher-Dude]

As for the guides the season would not effect them ,they have a business to run. There season would not change ,as for farming industry ,I don't know what you mean buy this ???. As for Sept we cant have the cake with the ice cream on it at all times ,you have to drop one in order to get the other. PS I have eaten lots of elk meat that has been shot in the latter part of Oct and it is as good eating to me as being shot in the latter part of Sept. http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/images/icons/icon7.gif.

What? The guides will have have carte blanche so that NON-RESIDENT fat-assed Yanks can shoot what they want when they want, while you and I pay tax dollars to support the animals, and yet we have have couple of restricted weeks to hunt?

Over my dead body.

[hunter1947]

What? The guides will have have carte blanche so that NON-RESIDENT fat-assed Yanks can shoot what they want when they want, while you and I pay tax dollars to support the animals, and yet we have have couple of restricted weeks to hunt?

Over my dead body. Well then Fisher ,what would you do ??? go tell all the guide outfitters that they only have a 4 week season ???. What would you do ???. :?.

[Fisher-Dude]

Well then Fisher ,what would you do ??? go tell all the guide outfitters that they only have a 4 week season ???. What would you do ???. :?.

If it were up to me, I'd make sure that BC residents (the folks who OWN the game and pay the taxes) had maximum opportunities FIRST, then if there were any leftovers, I'd tell the guides they could SELL some animals to alien, non-taxpaying, non-residents.

Then I'd wake up and realize it was all just a dream...:tongue:

Fundamental though is that the resident harvest takes priority over that of non-residents. Non-residents cannot have priority seasons over and above what residents get. And I'd tell the guides that. :wink:

[hunter1947]

If it were up to me, I'd make sure that BC residents (the folks who OWN the game and pay the taxes) had maximum opportunities FIRST, then if there were any leftovers, I'd tell the guides they could SELL some animals to alien, non-taxpaying, non-residents.

Then I'd wake up and realize it was all just a dream...:tongue:

Fundamental though is that the resident harvest takes priority over that of non-residents. Non-residents cannot have priority seasons over and above what residents get. And I'd tell the guides that. :wink:
Well then you can tell the quids. I do agree that residence should have first priority on the list. But when changing the regs buy having a shorter season ,how would you compensate for the quids ???? ,its like a farmer ,you go to his door and say to him you cant grow as much of a crop anymore on your land what do you think he will say ???.

[CanuckShooter]

What would the guide outfitters say.....Probably the same thing you'd say if they told you the elk season was being cut back to 7 days. How about some equality? short season for us..short season for guides....leh for us/leh for guides....won't happen though money talks.

[Timbow]

[quote=hunter1947;245110
As for the guides the season would not effect them ,they have a business to run. There season would not change ,as for farming industry ,I don't know what you mean buy this ???. [/quote]

Oh come on now, having the residents take the back seat to allow the guiding industry to care on with the usual business while the residents take the back seat....that is a load of horse s**t! If we the residents have to hunt the two weeks then so will the outfitters with the same restictions.

I garantee you that the resident hunters contribute more to the economic hub than the the outfitters and their clients.

If you claim that you shot game in October that compared to September, why are you suggesting a November 3 point?

[Seeadler]

I think that what it comes down to is, what is the carrying capacity of the range, and what bull/cow ratio is desired? Then what harvest level of ALL age and sex classes will maintain these objectives.

Bow hunters will not be able to harvest enough animals on under "any elk" regulations.

Anybody know the number of animals and success rates of the Jr/Sr season? I have a feeling based on what I saw that it was not high.

[GoatGuy]

[quote=BCrams;244629]If there is 'no' conservation concern. Why would we go to 3 pts on LEH?

If there is 'no' conservation concern. Why would we leave the 6 pt restriction in?

Thats the key word. No conservation concern. It has been established, there is no conservation concern for Rocky Mountain Elk and therefore the restrictions you propose are not needed. Especially LEH. To make a long story short I myself would want to conserv elk buy a shorter season and put the season for the opening of elk at the start of Nov and have a one week season on LEH for elk at the end of Nov ,that to me is conserving. Opening up the one week for LEH for 3 or better late in the year ,thats giving the meat hunters that do get picked a chance to put elk in there freezers. Having an LEH will not have a big impact on the elk in the EK ,buy having a one week LEH the management can control the numbers overall. There would be about the same amount of bulls being shot overall even after the one week of 3 points or better. Buy opening the season for 4 weeks has cut 2 full weeks off the season that has been in place for as long as I can remember ,this would balance the one week on 3 or bigger especially being on LEH In fact I think that the population of elk will multiply as the years go buy. In a overall pic. I think Buy doing this you would have more peregrinated cows that would give birth in the spring and to me thats a conservation concern.:wink:.

Just something to think about - LEH means you split the harvest res/non-res. Probably not a can of worms you want to open.