Early Season Muley Aspect

[Brambles]

O.K. we've kind of touched on this in passing on other posts but I think a dedicated poll and discussion would be a good idea.

I'm finding my mind constantly occupied by thoughts of Mule deer and how I'm going to hunt them this year with my reduced hunting time. This is one of the deciding factors on my scouting locations

I have settled on my first hunt being a Season Opener, high alpine hunt, probably hike in a day or two early. I have been doing research and narrowing down my summer scouting locations.

While doing some google earth scouting I constantly find myself drawn to North facing basins. The reduced sun exposure seems to make sense to me since the big muley bucks don't particularly like direct sunlight. There seems to be more water avaliable in them, late in the summer they would still have green vegitation where south facing slopes might have dried up by then.

That being said I have seen 15 bucks on Sept 10th on a dry as hell south facing slope and some of the reading I've been doing has singled out south facing slopes as a prime locations. Mind you none of the bucks were over 165".

What do you guys think, what have been you experiances for early season monster muley hunting.

Thanks

Brambles

[horshur]

I would hunt where you find them. ABCD and E

[MattB]

I dont think aspect has much to do with where an early season muley will be. Food sources will concentrate them more, IMO. Aspect doesnt play as much of a role because whether can change really quick in the mountains. If its hot a buck will bed in the shade under a tree, next to a rock, or under a cliff. If its raining or snowing they will head into some thicker sub-alpine fir or bed in the thick willow bottoms. I would just head to a good vantage point and glass for a few hours.

[boxhitch]

Will have to read up and see what Val Geist has to say about that.

[Brambles]

Will have to read up and see what Val Geist has to say about that.


I've done a fair bit of reading, including Val Geist's book (obviously more reading to do) I find they sort of sweep over top of the subject and mention things in passing but don't really get into detail on under what circumstances that they use South vs North Facing slopes.

[Brambles]

I would hunt where you find them. ABCD and E

Your probably one of those guys that think a full moon doesn't screw up your hunting either:tongue:

Maybe north/south aspect and Moon Phazes seem like hocus pokus but its something that I think needs to be considered and planned for if your to find one of the big boys in the early season. IMO

I can't remember the last time I heard of a truely monster muley being taken in the early season in B.C.. They are around because guys are shooting them in the late season lower down so they have to come from somewhere. And its somewhere people obviously arn't looking.

[BCrams]

The rhodo jungles right at the edge or inside of the alpine is where I'd be looking for a big one. Try to catch one at first light making their way into the jungle on steep North east / west facing slopes or in between steep slide areas.

I've seen some monsters in the West Koots when working in August in the most unlikely of places. One year I'll make it down there to hunt.

[Brambles]

I've seen some monsters in the West Koots when working in August in the most unlikely of places. One year I'll make it down there to hunt.

Now now Rams, you really think its fair to dangle meat in front me like that:biggrin:
You just said that because you want me to buy all your drinks at the banquet:D










Say what do you like to drink anyhow......:wink:

[RMG]

I think that the reason monster mulies are taken later in the season at lower elevations, and not earlier in the season, higher up, is because all of us, spend our early season hunting the high country, while them smart monsters are snickerin at us, from their hidey holes in the valley bottoms. Then when the snow chases us off the mountains, we get the odd big buck, before they can stop laughin at us.

Early in the season, I try to stay away from the south facing slopes, and concentrate on the east facing slopes during the AM and the north facing slopes from about 10 AM onward. I hate hunting in the heat, and thinks the big bucks hate the heat too. Cool and Water, are key elements in the early season. IMO.

[bruin]

I haven't got enough experience with high country early season bucks to say for sure but from what I have seen they tend to be where you find them. I can think of examples of bucks in every aspect. I think alot of the reason big muleys aren't taken in the early season has two sides. 1. There aren't as many guys hunting the high basins. 2. Mule deer aren't really patternable and can be hard to pin down in that 1st and last hour of light when they are actually moving. (there are obviously some exceptions). In my mind I would think they would prefer North, east and west facing slopes more so in the summer for reasons mentioned above.

[hunter1947]

When I hunt for mule deer this year it would be on the south facing slopes. The mulies like it there at the time of the year I will be hunting them and that would be in November.http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/images/icons/icon12.gif.

[frenchbar]

All of the above.weather useually dictates where they will be in early season. but if i had to focus on one of the facing slopes it would be the north facing slopes early season as well as towards the end of the season.

[Brambles]

I think that the reason monster mulies are taken later in the season at lower elevations, and not earlier in the season, higher up, is because all of us, spend our early season hunting the high country, while them smart monsters are snickerin at us, from their hidey holes in the valley bottoms. Then when the snow chases us off the mountains, we get the odd big buck, before they can stop laughin at us.



You actually think a lot of guys hunt early and high?

I think mainly why big bucks aren't taken that often in the early season alpine is because of hunter patience. Also the big mule deer will shy away from human presence, so spots accessed even by recreational hikers and accessed off of such trails will be avoided. Hunters will go to these areas because of ease of access and a defined trail. You might still see some deer in these areas but the larger and more weary deer will be hold up in some small basin where he has everything he needs in a close proximity. This limits his movement and therefore ability to be seen.
He knows winter and the rut is coming and he needs to rest and store his fat for it.

Some of these areas will be in country that you would overlook as being
uninhabitable.

Also, pre season scouting may work against you unless you can do it effectively at a distance. Getting too close during your scouting could inadvertently blow him out of his primary home.
I'm also guilty of walking around an area being scouted just a little too carefree, this is something that I'm going to work on.

This is just my theory of course, and maybe I'm just thinking out loud.:smile:

[David Heitsman]

I've always assumed that the rut played the main role in why the bigger bucks seem to be taken in November. They throw caution to the wind
and get reckless and careless.

As to the snow moving them in the late fall, there are many areas where the "high country" is 30 miles away and I'm not convinced that they migrate that far. Rock Creek for example or west of Osoyoos. My thinking is that they are primarily nocturnal till the rut screws up their time clock.

[Will]

Now now Rams, you really think its fair to dangle meat in front me like that:biggrin:
You just said that because you want me to buy all your drinks at the banquet:D










Say what do you like to drink anyhow......
How can you sleep at night with that taste in your mouth......? :lol:

I haven't got enough experience with high country early season bucks to say for sure but from what I have seen they tend to be where you find them. I can think of examples of bucks in every aspect. I think alot of the reason big muleys aren't taken in the early season has two sides. 1. There aren't as many guys hunting the high basins. 2. Mule deer aren't really patternable and can be hard to pin down
Best oppinion yet ;)

[Jelvis]

North slopes and northern pockets have deer til winter snows deepen, usually after seasons over, otherwise by the time deep snow comes in Jan Feb and March the snowiest month the food would be eaten. Mother Nature planned it that way. North slopes all hunting season. Jel noeth

[tufferthandug]

I can't wait for this September... High country saskatoons and big bucks....!

[tomahawk]

They will be all the places you have indicated, its just how long they'll spend in each area and what time of day they'll be there that you have to figure out. Food, water, shelter, travel routes, bedding area, shade, escape routes etc etc all determine where they'll be and when.

[dana]

Aspect really means didley squat when it comes to the high country monsters. They will be where they will be. I have seen them in every aspect. I have seen them bedded in the direct sunshine on south facing slopes and I have seen them bedded in the thickest gawd aweful rhodo of the north slope and every where in between.

The real reason most hunters are not killing monsters in the high country has every thing to do with the fact the majority of hunters in this province have absolutely no idea how to hunt them effectively. Scouting is everything. And yes, those monsters can be patterned. Most hunters just don't want to do their homework in the off season. Sitting at a computer looking at Google Earth is not scouting. Getting up at 2am every Sat and Sun of the summer and bustin your ass up a mountain in pitch dark in order to get to a glassin perch for first light and then getting eaten alive by hoards of bugs as you watch the sunrise, that is scouting. Tons of basins out there with just dink bucks in them. Tons of basins that all you see is the dink bucks, but that giant is using them to his advantage and he is almost all but nocturnal. Do you think you can magically pick the 'right' piece of alpine on google earth? Go to Vegas instead, as your odds of winning will be higher there.

[Orangethunder]

I dont think that aspect has much to do with things. I've seen them on NSEW and each in between. Bugs, rain, heat, water, predators and a lot more factors contribute to where your going to find bucks. I'm sure that in some areas of our province it might make a bit of a difference but here in the interior its a crapshoot.

[TIKA 300]

Have had bucks on south facing(mid november) and right out in the open in a basin,facing all directions ...... TK

[Brambles]

Do you think you can magically pick the 'right' piece of alpine on google earth? Go to Vegas instead, as your odds of winning will be higher there.


Easy there Dana, its WINTER not summer and I'm just using "the earth" to take a areial look at some areas I've wanted to explore and get a different look at areas I already hunt. I'm not expecting a buck to be standing in a slide with an orange flag trying to get my attention, or a big neon sign saying "big bucks here" with a flashing arrow indicating which tree or boulder he is hunkered by.

There are too many places to hunt around home so I'm in the process of narrowing them down to a more suitable amount that I can effectivly scout. Aspect is just one of the many factors that I am weighing when I shortlist some spots. Not all of us have jobs that keep us out in the field every day, getting paid to scout.

Its nice to see your back and posting, knew you couldn't resist a Muley post:tongue: and you would have to chime in. But you have to relax and have a pop:smile: Its freakin winter, and also its dark out......


Most hunters just don't want to do their homework in the off season. Sitting at a computer looking at Google Earth is not scouting.

Kind of contradicting yourself, first you accuse people of not wanting to do homework in the off season, and then say that Google earth isn't scouting, maybe not but its homework.

In the winter off season its better than doing nothing, especially since most of its all hi-def now:D Plus just because your "earthin it" doesn't mean your not doing other things, its all homework and its all information and its all a piece of the puzzle that you have to put together in order to be sucessful.



Getting up at 2am every Sat and Sun of the summer and bustin your ass up a mountain in pitch dark in order to get to a glassin perch for first light and then getting eaten alive by hoards of bugs as you watch the sunrise, that is scouting.

Yes, that is one aspect of scouting. But you don't necessarily have to stumble into these spots, or hear some guys talking etc. Advanced preparation and homework are what I prefer to do in order to find these spots. I've always said that I prefer to find my own spots, this is just another part of that desire. The physical scouting would be something to do in the SUMMER, look outside and tell me what you see.

I'm already starting to plan some summer scouting trips. But they are on hold until more suitable weather ie: summer.

[Will]

Sitting at a computer looking at Google Earth is not scouting
:lol::lol::lol:

[dana]

Brambles,
I can tell ya from personal experience, if you want to kill a true highcountry monster, then you are going to have to sacrifice a lot of time for numerous years to acheive your goal. It is all about putting the time in. Mike Eastman says you need to have a 5 year plan to kill a trophy buck above the timberline. I tend to agree. 5 years at least of some serious homework, glassin till your eyes bleed, before you'll put the pieces of the puzzle together and make it happen. Do you have that amount of time to throw at it?

[CanuckShooter]

Brambles,
I can tell ya from personal experience, if you want to kill a true highcountry monster, then you are going to have to sacrifice a lot of time for numerous years to acheive your goal. It is all about putting the time in. Mike Eastman says you need to have a 5 year plan to kill a trophy buck above the timberline. I tend to agree. 5 years at least of some serious homework, glassin till your eyes bleed, before you'll put the pieces of the puzzle together and make it happen. Do you have that amount of time to throw at it?

OR, you could just be driving down some backcountry road and that monster mulie will jump out and stand there waiting for you to shoot 'em !! Sometimes just good old fashioned luck comes into play.

[wsm]

all any one can do is spen the time they've got, and be in the right place at the right time. it helps if you have more time,b ut i still know guys that tag trophy bucks almost every year and dont spend the time. some are just lucky

[dana]

Some guys win big in Vegas too, so what is your point? If you want your hunting to be just a crapshoot, hoping for the best but settling for mediocre, then by all means, don't spend the time that is truly required to harvest a highcountry monster. Everyone wants things too easy nowadays. Fact is, highcountry mule deer are seldom, if ever, easy.

[M.Dean]

A 5 year plan to shoot a trophy buck? 5 years? Surly you jest! Because a hunter does not spend his entire summer and fall scouting for deer scat like some, does not mean that he is any less of a hunter or not as dedicated, it means he has a life and enjoys Hunting! Yes, some hunters have to put there time in, but enjoy that time.Yes, try to kill that monster buck,but don't let it kill you trying! Hunting to most of us is fun, not a Job! If you have to make a 5 year plan to kill a "Above Timber line" buck, hunt a bit lower! M.Dean

[Brambles]

Brambles,
I can tell ya from personal experience, if you want to kill a true highcountry monster, then you are going to have to sacrifice a lot of time for numerous years to acheive your goal. It is all about putting the time in. Mike Eastman says you need to have a 5 year plan to kill a trophy buck above the timberline. I tend to agree. 5 years at least of some serious homework, glassin till your eyes bleed, before you'll put the pieces of the puzzle together and make it happen. Do you have that amount of time to throw at it?


I'm throwing as much time as I can at it, thats for sure. It never stops for me, I'm always thinking and doing my homework. Reading books, studies, looking at maps, and yes google earth too and going over and improving my gear. These are things I do when I can't get out in the field. To me that is better than doing nothing at all.

Come summer although I work solid, I have some scouting trips planned for my very very few days off in July and August. Gotta work.

I'm a good enough hunter that I don't need to hunt my ass off just to fill the freezer so this allows me more time to be selective and persistant.

I've said from the get go that I"m not in a hurry to get a big buck, Its a long term goal for me. I just want to improve on the quaility of deer I shoot each year, sure its great to dream big but I feel if I work my way up the deer quality laddder then the rewards will last longer and I'll have learn't more than if I shoot one right off the bat. I passed up a lot of legal bucks this year and it didn't bother me to do so, bothered my brother big time but thats his problem:smile:

[Will]

If you have to make a 5 year plan to kill a "Above Timber line" buck, hunt a bit lower!
:lol:
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http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/images/smilies/new/popCorn.gif

[Mr. Dean]

Sorry.
I'm thinking that if I devote too much time to your thread, my spring bear hunt will suffer.

I must stay focused.
I can only support one fever ata time. :redface:

[Jelvis]

Dreaming, scheming, excitement, desire, planning, preparing, physical training, reading, studying, google earth, topo study, talking with others, Hunting in BC site, hiking, shed hunting, pre-scouting, arguing with others about it, and remembering what you learned before, is all a part of hunting and is what makes it what it is, a lifestyle, that we love. Keep it up big fella your going to connect big time I can feel it . Jel tel

[dana]

A 5 year plan to shoot a trophy buck? 5 years? Surly you jest! Because a hunter does not spend his entire summer and fall scouting for deer scat like some, does not mean that he is any less of a hunter or not as dedicated, it means he has a life and enjoys Hunting! Yes, some hunters have to put there time in, but enjoy that time.Yes, try to kill that monster buck,but don't let it kill you trying! Hunting to most of us is fun, not a Job! If you have to make a 5 year plan to kill a "Above Timber line" buck, hunt a bit lower! M.Dean

Actually I was mistaken, just looked at Mike Eastman's Hunting High Country Mule Deer and he suggests a 4 year plan, not a 5 year plan. He actually devotes a whole chapter to this idea. Big bucks don't grow on trees. Think about your own hunting career. Do you consitantly harvest monster bucks less than 5 years apart from each other? If you do, then you are among a very select few in the West today. Now, numerous hunters throughout the West simply Luck into that 'Buck of a Lifetime', but you can say that numerous gamblers win big in Vegas every year too. Do you want your chances at killing a monster to be more than just a gamble, more than just that chance 'once in a lifetime' even, then you need to actually commit some serious time to the endeaver. Sheep hunters say that the year you take up sheep hunting, is the year your ram is born. Many try and many many fail. Some have what it takes to stick it out year after year, in search of the ram that haunts their dreams. Trophy mule deer are no different. If you can't spend the time, then you probably ain't gonna get that monster you dream about. And no, I'm not talking about dink bucks in the 150-170 class. Really, I don't think it is too difficult to harvest them on a regular basis if you have even the slightest ability towards hunting.

I can honestly say, when I first commited myself to trophy mule deer, it did indeed take me 4 years to put the pieces together and see a monster hit the ground. When you consider a true trophy mule deer is estimated to be a 1:500 buck, that means you've got to look at a ton of country and a ton of deer before you will even find one, let alone kill one.

[huntinnut]

I too don't think aspect has that much to do with it. I also agree in the 4 or 5 year plan theory. I'm personally willing to muley tag soup in order to shoot one muley every 5 years or so. For our area a buck that grosses in the mid 180's is a real trophy.

I'm constantly scouting and trying to understand the dynamics that are controlling general behavior patterns in each area I scout and then determine which areas to focus on hunting.

Around here, even in the few good good basins, one probably has to look at at least 30 or 40 legal 4-points to find a 170's grossing buck, and probably over 100 4-points to find that buck in the 180's. It could take a long time, or one might see him on the first day.

Sure anyone can get lucky once, but it's the guys that have 5 or 6 great bucks in their den that impress me because I can appreciate how much passion and effort was spent to find those monsters.

[Buck]

Once you find an area that holds big bucks it seems to attract them year after year i have taken a couple of big bucks out of the same place it attracts them for some reason.Anyone else experience this?

[Jelvis]

I hear ya Buck and I think alike on that, go where the big bucks are drawn to, there is a reason for them to be drawn there, year after year, good point. Buck! Jel concurs

[moosinaround]

The more intimate you get with an area, the better you will pattern the critters you are looking for. You can only judge patterns and trends by putting in the time and looking at more than just the pretty hills. It doesn't come from 1 season of looking over an area, it comes from repeated seasons of looking over an area. Learning the ins and outs of the area you plan to hunt increases the odds of finding that once in a life time buck. I think the more you are out on the ground the better your chances of finding the monster. I use google earth, maps, air photos, as tools. Finding a subtle ravine, or a patch of reserve strip, or what have you on a map or photo requires a site visit prior to hunting season to find evidence. This is all part of the hunting activity, and it is what makes hunting a truly year round activity. Moosin

[huntinnut]

I also have found that a few basins seem to consistantly hold better bucks than other basins. It's also interesting to hear loggers and forestry peoples stories about where they saw huge bucks. I have found that the stories often point to the same area or even the same ridge or cutblock..

[115 or bust]

Not technically mulies but offhand I can think of 3 of my favorite alpine/subalpine blacktail areas that are all north facing. Gone as soon as the first snow hits the ground though. Oh and you'd be amazed what a guy who's stuck in school can find with google earth, orthophoto maps, soil maps, topo maps, winter range maps, Record book, and a good backroads map. Save yourself a lot of wasted time and helps focus the effort.

[tomahawk]

Not technically mulies but offhand I can think of 3 of my favorite alpine/subalpine blacktail areas that are all north facing. Gone as soon as the first snow hits the ground though. Oh and you'd be amazed what a guy who's stuck in school can find with google earth, orthophoto maps, soil maps, topo maps, winter range maps, Record book, and a good backroads map. Save yourself a lot of wasted time and helps focus the effort.


Smart man, like anything the more effort you put into it the more you'll get out of it! Sounds like you've done your homework!

[dana]

I too have found that certain basins can produce Big bucks more than other basins. I believe it has a lot to do with the Master buck of the bachelor herd. He is the one that takes the younger bucks under his wing and teaches them where to feed, where to water, where to bed. In return, he uses them as his security scouts and many times they take one for the team and he slips out the back door unscathed. But if they learn from the Master, they will too reach an old age where they too will grow racks of their full potential. I have found that numerous basins that used to produce for me in the past, no longer produce. I believe that also ties into the Master buck. When he is no longer there to lead, if one of the other younger bucks that grew up under his watch doesn't take the leadership role, then that choice habitat may be unused or undiscovered for a few years.
I have literally watched some monsters grow up right in front of my eyes. It is amazing how they will call one particular piece of highcountry home year after year, even bedding in the same exact beds. Here is a buck I was fortunate to film 4 out of 5 years. Every time I filmed him, he was within 200 metres of where I saw him the first year.

Summer 2000
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v145/BCBOY/Hunting%20Pics/IMG_0378.jpg

Summer 2002
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v145/BCBOY/Hunting%20Pics/IMG_0270.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v145/BCBOY/Hunting%20Pics/IMG_0699.jpg

[dana]

Summer 2003
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v145/BCBOY/Hunting%20Pics/IMG_0251.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v145/BCBOY/Hunting%20Pics/IMG_0250.jpg

Summer 2004
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v145/BCBOY/Hunting%20Pics/IMG_0191.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v145/BCBOY/Hunting%20Pics/IMG_0647.jpg

[mcrae]

Brambles

We can use this cart if we go:lol: The big tires will make it easy to drag into those bowls and basins:biggrin: I have no clue what aspects to hunt I see them everywhere including places they shouldn't be so you have to be ready with and all-terrain cart:biggrin:

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i86/sako555/CopyofCopyofPicture105.jpg

[Brambles]

Dana

Did you spend much time opening week trying to locate him? Your pictures Dated Aug 4, some would think he'd still be in the area come opening day!

[Brambles]

Brambles

We can use this cart if we go:lol: The big tires will make it easy to drag into those bowls and basins:biggrin: I have no clue what aspects to hunt I see them everywhere including places they shouldn't be so you have to be ready with and all-terrain cart



No roads where or trails where I'm going:smile: Might have to bring a sack of potato's to deal with him:razz:

Thats a great picture, brings a new meaning for the term "shopping for deer"

[dana]

Dana

Did you spend much time opening week trying to locate him? Your pictures Dated Aug 4, some would think he'd still be in the area come opening day!

Brambles,
Knowing your Pattern Breakers are key to your scouting efforts. Most of the time you learn them through trial and error. The biggest pattern breaker where that buck lived was FROST and it would always hit mid-August, nukin out the lush alpine veg. The buck then would drop in elevation to the rhodo jungle of the ESSF timber. One year I had what I believed were his tracks in that thick timber. I jumped him and never even heard him go. Early season timber hunting isn't very fun. Thick and nothing says 'Snap, crackle, pop' like Sept after a long dry summer. I had thought if I could get some trackin snow that first week of the season, I might have a chance at him. The year I got that snow, 2004, I was busy guiding and couldn't hunt for myself. Live and learn. Last time I ever saw him was during the 2004 summer. Finally was able to pick up his 2004/2005 sheds during the spring of 2007. I believe he became catscat shortly after dropping those sheds.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v145/BCBOY/Hunting%20Pics/Mar25008a.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v145/BCBOY/Hunting%20Pics/MatchedSet001a.jpg

[dana]

Here's a buck that I'm hoping shows up this year as he has some great potential to be a shooter. Saw him during the summer of 2006. Never saw him last summer. Doesn't mean he is dead though, as I've found that on extremely wet summers like we had last year, a lot of bucks don't go high. One of the main reasons that bucks hit the highcountry is that they chase the best of the best antler growing feed. As the snow melts in the spring, they follow the snowline up and are always feeding on that 'new' growth. During extremely wet summers, that lush feed is everywhere and therefore they don't have to go high to find it. I have found this to be a big pattern breaker. It can be rather discouraging scouting and seeing jack-shit above timberline all summer long.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v145/BCBOY/Hunting%20Pics/Aug12012.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v145/BCBOY/Hunting%20Pics/Aug12017.jpg

[Brambles]

Brambles,
Knowing your Pattern Breakers are key to your scouting efforts. Most of the time you learn them through trial and error. The biggest pattern breaker where that buck lived was FROST and it would always hit mid-August, nukin out the lush alpine veg. The buck then would drop in elevation to the rhodo jungle of the ESSF timber. One year I had what I believed were his tracks in that thick timber. I jumped him and never even heard him go. Early season timber hunting isn't very fun. Thick and nothing says 'Snap, crackle, pop' like Sept after a long dry summer. I had thought if I could get some trackin snow that first week of the season, I might have a chance at him. The year I got that snow, 2004, I was busy guiding and couldn't hunt for myself. Live and learn. Last time I ever saw him was during the 2004 summer. Finally was able to picked up his 2004/2005 sheds during the spring of 2007. I believe he became catscat shortly after dropping those sheds.



I hear ya on the jungle. From all the reading I've been doing, Including a "loaner copy" of Hunting High Country Mule deer. They say that if you get an early frost then to head into the timber on North Facing slopes because its the last place that the frost kills the vegitation and its actually warmer under the canopy because of the thermal break. The big bucks will be in there waiting for snow to push them down. Now hunting that stuff effectivly is easier said then done, but if you can find out which area he's in you can set up with a spotting scope and try and catch him coming out of the timber (which he may or maynot do)

Also another "pattern breaker" that you might be over looking is YOU. It is obvious to me from your pictures that he KNEW you were there each time, especially when they intentionally skylined themselves to get away from you. Mike Eastman warned about scouting too close to your hunting area, he prefers to be a couple miles away ( not always possible in our country) for the sole purpose of avoiding pushing the big bucks into their secondary areas, which tend to be more vicious than their primary range.

Just talkin out loud, what do ya figure.

[dana]

You've got to take what the books say and then build on them for your own local areas. I know Mike says that bucks in his neck of the woods prefer the North slopes. I also know that it is a lot warmer in his neck of the woods too. Here, it can be damn cold in the high country in the summer. Tons of times I've had 35+ degrees in the low elevations and been freezing my ass off even mid day above timberline. That is why I've witnessed bucks sunning themselves in bare dirt avalanche tracks. The wind is another reason the big boys head high, as it keeps the bugs at bay. Think about those blood filled velvet racks of theirs. I have witnessed numerous times where the bugs have drove bucks crazy to the point of them running straight up the mountain kickin and buckin as they go, only to calm down the moment they hit the wind on the top and there they bed. Come Sept, the bugs are pretty much all but gone because of the frost. Bucks don't need to be as high as they did during the 'buggy' summer. They abandon those high perch beds in the granite and start feeding lower.
Human activity can certainly be a pattern breaker and yes I do try to do my scouting as stealthly as possible, not skyling myself, scrolling as I move from one basin to another and making as little noise as possible. The one thing to keep in mind too is that predation doesn't end once the winter is done. I've had lion tracks above timberline numerous times, and I've seen wolves and grizz many many times as I've been scouting. I think human caused pattern breakers are actually the least of your worry while hunting the high country of BC.
Widebugger was unique in the sense he was located in a piece of highcountry that had no real good access points to glass it. Rolling subalpine. You have to scroll through it to actually see it. Most of the years I filmed Widebugger, I saw him numerous times after my filming segments. It was like he didn't mind my being there. In 2002, I actually filmed him for 40 minutes under 40 yards and he knew I was there the entire time. In 2004 he actually had no idea I was there. He was sound asleep and after I filmed him, I crawled away undected.

[Gateholio]

Dana

What stage do you think the antler development is on that Aug 4 photo?

I shot a high alpine mule deer a few years back, day after opening, it was in velvet, but antlers were fully developed.

[dana]

Gate,
I used to think that the majority of the antler growth was pretty much complete by the first week of Aug and all they really put on was mass from that point on. After pickin up the 2004 sheds off of Widebugger, I now think different. The summer 2004 footage I took of him was at the very tail end of July. He put on a ton of tine length, I estimate 10+ inches, by the time he became hard horned. They certainly are done growth by Sept though. They shed the velvet pretty much between Sept 1-13th.

[Brambles]

Yeah thats the thing about reading books written by the americans. The majority of their hunting areas are sooooo different than ours that the techinques arn't directly transferrable. Pick the ones you think are relevant then try and adapt and implement them to suit your needs and terrain.

I'll find out more info after my summer scouting trips, until then I can only be annoying and over-analyze things:lol:

I got some solid country to scout and very very large deer have been harvested on the lower elevations surrounding this very rugged alpine. Good non-typcial gene in this area too.
I also have some area that I'm scouting that has no hunting pressure and therefore I haven't herd of big bucks coming out for many years ( kind of a forgotton place). The only high basin in that general area is mostly North facing that wraps around to the west and becoming a little south facing on the other side.

I got a few days off right now, so I'm actually going to go snowshoing/shed hunting:eek: I want to find an antler big enough to rub with, so that will be my winter/spring goal.

[boxhitch]

Thanks Jeff I needed a new line.

[BCrams]

Well Jeff, there is one place in the West Koots right now that stands out in my mind for trophy mule deer bucks in the alpine. I want to take Dana and Mattb and whoever else is interested in there for an extended mule deer hunt one year. I guarantee at least 1 monster or 2 will drop.

Vote in favour of the change for elk in the Koots and you can join in for some good ol fun ;)

[Kody94]

Vote in favour of the change for elk in the Koots and you can join in for some good ol fun ;)

LMAO!!!! :lol:

Bribery will get you everywhere, eh! :biggrin:

I'll keep that in mind in case I ever need to get you to change your opinion. :) Thanks for the chuckle...its been a crappy day!

Cheers
4ster

[Will]

... the very tail end of July. He put on a ton of tine length, I estimate 10+ inches, by the time he became hard horned.
I once read that during the "peak" growing time with good feed...they will/can add an inch a day to the tines...:shock:

Dana your pics are always interesting !:smile:

[Jelvis]

Will thats stretching it, an inch a day? I heard maybe in perfect conditions three eights of an inch possible in one day! Jel loops

[270 short mag.]

http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/images/smilies/new/popCorn.gifWill, what are you eating ?? fish&chips??????????????????

[Gateholio]

Gate,
I used to think that the majority of the antler growth was pretty much complete by the first week of Aug and all they really put on was mass from that point on. After pickin up the 2004 sheds off of Widebugger, I now think different. The summer 2004 footage I took of him was at the very tail end of July. He put on a ton of tine length, I estimate 10+ inches, by the time he became hard horned. They certainly are done growth by Sept though. They shed the velvet pretty much between Sept 1-13th.


Yeah, your pics seem to show his antlers as being somewhat "stubby" and maybe not "pointy" yet, compared to the shed pics.

I wonder how much growing is done in the first 3 weeks of Aug, after your pics were taken.

[Jelvis]

August 20th is about right for full growth then the peeling for a day or two at end of August beginning of September. Hey Will antlers start growing about April then til Aug 20th so April to Aug 20th = April May June July August thats 5 months = 5 times 30 days = 150 days @ one inch a day is 150 inches. Will thats 150 inches divided by 12 = Twelve and one half foot antlers lol @ one inch a day from April to September. Some ones joshing you about an inch a day bro. no big deal Jel grin

[GoatGuy]

Well Jeff, there is one place in the West Koots right now that stands out in my mind for trophy mule deer bucks in the alpine. I want to take Dana and Mattb and whoever else is interested in there for an extended mule deer hunt one year. I guarantee at least 1 monster or 2 will drop.

Vote in favour of the change for elk in the Koots and you can join in for some good ol fun ;)

Don't show the pictures.

[Will]

Will thats stretching it, an inch a day? I heard maybe in perfect conditions three eights of an inch possible in one day! Jel loops
I'm serious.......

It was in an article regarding Ungulates and growth rates for antlers........specifically mentioned Muleys and Whitetail deer. If I can dig it up in my messy mountain of books I'll get the info.......

It definately said up to an inch per day..."during the peak growth time"

True or false I dunno....I'm no Biologist ! But it sounded good :tongue:

They do really have to put on a hell of alot of growth in a short time no doubt about that !

What amazes me in the Racks Bull Moose grow every year.......That's impressive !:shock:

[ruttinbuck]

I had heard similar numbers as you Will.The key Jelvis missed I believe is the "peak growth period" part. I bet its in Geist's book.RB

[Kody94]

When I was reading Will's post, I had the same thought....I think I might have seen that in Val Geists book. But it does seem high to me.

Cheers,
4Ster

[Brambles]

Well Jeff, there is one place in the West Koots right now that stands out in my mind for trophy mule deer bucks in the alpine. I want to take Dana and Mattb and whoever else is interested in there for an extended mule deer hunt one year. I guarantee at least 1 monster or 2 will drop.

Vote in favour of the change for elk in the Koots and you can join in for some good ol fun ;)


Hey it just so happened I changed my mind A LITTLE on the elk issue. Let me know when we leave for the hunt:razz:

I won't get into the details of my change in Elk regulations on this thread, go ahead and read it there.

Rams, there is lots of great country in the WK's and i"m sure if more people hunted them effectively (and we had a longer season of course) more big WK bucks would hit the dirt. But until we get a longer season we are stuck with less than a handful of big bucks being shot each year.

Pm me with details:lol:

[Brambles]

Thanks Jeff I needed a new line.


Why is that funny:?

[boxhitch]

CL's recent reference to Spooning.
Yeah maybe its not funny :)

[Brambles]

CL's recent reference to Spooning.
Yeah maybe its not funny :)

I'll resist the urge to flogg myself with a nice big antler shed:-P

[boxhitch]

I had heard similar numbers as you Will.The key Jelvis missed I believe is the "peak growth period" part. I bet its in Geist's book.RBMaybe the statement was made in reference to growth toward total score, not individual tine length. But then it should be closer to 2"/day or more.

[tinhorse]

Biggest buck ive ever seen in the early season was down a deactivated logging road north of alexis creek. It was about 11:00 a.m. and was probably about 25 degrees in mid august and he was bedded in the middle of a gravel pit in the wide open sunning himself. He didn't stay after he heard me though

[hunter1947]

When I was into hunting mule deer years back ,I found that the big boys are hi in altitute and like the north east facing slops in the early part of Sept. It all changes when it gets cold and there is a lots of snow ,they then move to lower elevations and hang out on the south facing slops.

[BCrams]

Biggest buck ive ever seen in the early season was down a deactivated logging road north of alexis creek. It was about 11:00 a.m. and was probably about 25 degrees in mid august and he was bedded in the middle of a gravel pit in the wide open sunning himself. He didn't stay after he heard me though

How long ago? And was it a non-typical or typical?

[BCrams]

Hey it just so happened I changed my mind A LITTLE on the elk issue. Let me know when we leave for the hunt:razz:

I won't get into the details of my change in Elk regulations on this thread, go ahead and read it there.

Rams, there is lots of great country in the WK's and i"m sure if more people hunted them effectively (and we had a longer season of course) more big WK bucks would hit the dirt. But until we get a longer season we are stuck with less than a handful of big bucks being shot each year.

Pm me with details:lol:

So I noticed. The year I (we) come down, I'll let you know and see if you're free! :cool:

I agree if the season was extended later into November there would be an increase of big bucks shot. But we know you can't have that because of all the out of region hunters that would show up and slaughter all the dumb rut crazed bucks!!! After all, they have never been hunted during the rut for sometime! Just like the elk !! 8-)

[Brambles]

I agree if the season was extended later into November there would be an increase of big bucks shot. But we know you can't have that because of all the out of region hunters that would show up and slaughter all the dumb rut crazed bucks!!! After all, they have never been hunted during the rut for sometime! Just like the elk !!


Your right, maybe make it so only locals can hunt them.:tongue:

Seriously though, I'm not sure if that would be the case(but maybe it would)????, there is a mulie season everywhere. Just open up Region 8 for a late season, especially 8-14 and 8-15 too and see where the hunters go.:wink:

I think the reason we don't have the late season is because we don't have the large winter ranges, so you'd be concentrating a large amount of deer into a much smaller land mass. It may become a shooting gallery, but what the hell do I know, I just want to shoot big deer and big elk:razz:

I look forward to your phone call.:smile:

[BCrams]

Your right, maybe make it so only locals can hunt them.:tongue:

Yeah right. If they ever extend the season - This is one out of region hunter that will be coming down there.

Seriously though, I'm not sure if that would be the case(but maybe it would)????, there is a mulie season everywhere. Just open up Region 8 for a late season, especially 8-14 and 8-15 too and see where the hunters go.:wink:

There's an elk season everywhere else too!! But you're worried about an elk slaughter!

I think the reason we don't have the late season is because we don't have the large winter ranges, so you'd be concentrating a large amount of deer into a much smaller land mass. It may become a shooting gallery, but what the hell do I know, I just want to shoot big deer and big elk:razz:

I wouldn't know as I havn't looked into it much as to the 'why'.

If you support the removal of the W.Koot. LEH elk hunt, the reality of being able to shoot a big elk becomes very real every single year because you live right there, whereas with the LEH, it might as well be a pipe dream unless you go somewhere else.

I look forward to your phone call.:smile:

You bet........

[tinhorse]

This was 4 years ago when i was a summer student for riverside forest products. The deer was a non-typical that would have had 8 points on the left and 12 on the right and a outside spread of 30 - 32". Did you see a similar buck? I saw him another time in early august as well

[BCrams]

Nope ... not at all. I have a shed from the area of a 200+ typical found last fall.

[Brambles]

There's an elk season everywhere else too!! But you're worried about an elk slaughter!
.


Only because in the 30 years those elk have been there they have only been hunted by very very few LEH holders, half of which never even bothered to show up to hunt them.

Mulies are use to being hunted, they always have been hunted.

If we can work up to a GOS slowly in order to educate the elk I think it would be better in the long run. Instead of shooting all the big bulls the first few years, they will survive and learn, and ultimatly be harder to hunt. This IMO would enable the area to still produce trophy elk even in a GOS.

[Brambles]

Nope ... not at all. I have a shed from the area of a 200+ typical found last fall.


Don't leave me hanging:eek: