General response to Bear Protection Thread

[kgriz]

Many people do not know that if you work in the bush timber cruising, doing layout or forest consulting work that you probably qualify to get a permit to carry a restricted weapon (handgun) for the purpose of protecting yourself from dangerous predators. I have a permit and would no longer go into the bush working without my handgun; it has saved my partner's life from a griz once and my other partner and I's from a blackbear another time. With the blackbear, a shotgun or maybe even mace would have done the job as it didn't happen really fast and I would have had time to get a gun off of my back and fire. With the griz, if I didn't have my handgun my partner would have been mauled...period. It came chasing him towards me so fast that all I had time for was to quickly draw my gun and fire one at about 5m. If I would have been fighting my shotgun off my back it would surely have gotten a hold of my partner or I.
As for mace, sometimes it works, in this case with a charging large bear so close, I have my doubts.
My point is don't risk not carrrying a gun while working due to weight and inconvenience when it could cost you your life and leave your kids without a parent when there is a viable alternative. The permiting process isn't that bad and is well worth the minimal hassle.
Anybody who has any questions on how to obtain a permit give me a shout on-line and maybe I can answer some questions as I have had to go through the application process every 2 years for the past 10.

[6 K]

I am just curious, what cal. an load do you carry? What was the preformance on the griz like? What was the bear's reaction? Was / is there any official paper work (other than $hit paper):smile: to deal with after dischargeing a hand gun in the bush? ie do you have to keep a ammo log or something?

[moosinaround]

When I was working in the bush cruising and doing silv surveys, My shotgun was like my American express I didnt leave home without it!! In 15 years of working in the bush I only ever had to kill one bear in self defense. Now that I dont work in the woods anymore I still bring it along on hunting and fishing trips, Have it as a camp gun so to speak. My family feels a lot more comfortable out in the woods knowing the ole 12 ga is near by. Moosin

[kgriz]

I use a 357 mag with hot 180 grain handloads and it is considered a min for the permit but my dad had it already so we transfered it to me and it's what I use; my partner carries a 44 mag. The griz fell back on its ass and whirled into the bush; I doubt anything would have dropped it outright. All bears killed or wounded must be reported to a CO; some CO's are better than others on the amount of skepticism you face on should have shot or not etc. but its all worth not being dead

[kgriz]

I used to carry a 12 gauge defender with a pistol grip and then a sawed off double barrel 20 gauge with a holster to save weight. Or should I say modified to barrel length 18.5 inches or longer to stave off the nit-pickers:roll:. But ever since I got my permit 10 years ago I would never go back for work due to light weight an draw-speed.

[BoomBoom]

I have worked (and fortunately still am!!) for a variety of large licencees. Not one of them have authorized a permit for a sidearm for employees. It is required to have an employer sign the permit application. I have discussed this on 2 occassions with the woods manager, and at the time it was felt that the liability may be on the company. In fairness, this was 10 years ago, but we have these conversations fairly regularly at operations meetings and there is still consensus that the company does not want to get into authorizing firearms for their employees. If the company has to entertain 1 authorization, then they must look at all that may come their way from other employees in the bush. This would be extremely difficult to manage.

Consultants have a better chance getting approval.

I have worked in the bush for 21 years now. I have had several bear encounters. Personally, I am comfortable with having some basic bear avoidance training and carry bear spray. I would not be okay with others working in the same area as me that are packing!....firearms in capaable hands are okay but what about the summer student that just saw an easy opportunity to get a handgun?!:frown:

...anyone know of a licencee approving handguns in the bush? I would be interested in which one and division.
....boom...

[Gateholio]

..firearms in capaable hands are okay but what about the summer student that just saw an easy opportunity to get a handgun?!:frown:

...

They would still have to pass a PAL test, and if they did they could carry a rifle or shotgun, so the type of firearm is really a moot point.

[kgriz]

Licensees are generally so concerned about meeting their canned safety plans to meet various specs forced onto them by outside forces that certain facts are overlooked; such as the fact that not "every summer student" can get a permit; every applicant must show competency with the weapon to a certified instructor to be eligible. Certainly not the case for hunters etc. To add to this is most companies could care less about "special cases" such as this and nobody truly looks into the real rules. Case in point would be that most licensees do no allow their woods staff to carry chainsaws in the vehicles for road blowdowns etc. because they are not fallers as per WCB. When I wrote our companies plan I called WCB and spoke to them and found out that almost every company is in error and chainsaw use is allowed as long as the employee has general safety training and is not "production falling". Companies being "scared of" handgun permits is similar; if I was forced to work for a licensee that didn't allow me my handgun and I was mauled because of it the person responsible would definetely be getting a visit when I was healthy.

[kgriz]

Oh yeah and I forgot, the government is even worse on this issue,
At the forest service, there are 2 unions, one for techs and one for professionals; one is allowed firearms the other is not. Apparently grizzly bears can differentiate between the unions based on uniform:eek:

[hunter1947]

I can see your point hear Kozakgriz. When you are concentrating on something and have your hands full of stuff with a gun strapped over you back a bear can be on top of you at a flick of an eye. Having the gun in a holster you can pull it out even if the bear is on top of you. A gun over your back you cant.

[kgriz]

exactly what I preach

[kgriz]

I read all of the comments on buckshot and although I like to have slugs I can see the merrit of buckshot if you don't get much time to practice. The important point to go along with this is that this is for bear protection not necessarily killing. Will the bullet or weapon you choose stop him from eating you? At that point I'm not too worried about killing vs wounding etc. I just don't want to die. I'm not saying wounding things is good, I'm just saying using what you are comfortable with to save your or your partners life is your best choice of bullet or gun. I've seen a lot of people with extra big guns for protection and they think they look like billy badass but a good portion of the time their gun sits in the truck because its too cumbersome or heavy.

[Squirrelnuts]

I still don't get it. What difference would practice (or lack thereof) make? At very short distances (the distances that a shot like this should happen) I can't see where buckshot gives a person any better chance at a hit than a slug. You can't be counting on the number of pellets in a shell to make up for lack of proficiency.

Personally, if I'm shooting at something that wants to do some damage to me, I want it dead. Now. You might not have time for a second shot.

(For the record, I pack a full stock Defender, and it's filled with slugs).

[horshur]

I still don't get it. What difference would practice (or lack thereof) make? At very short distances (the distances that a shot like this should happen) I can't see where buckshot gives a person any better chance at a hit than a slug. You can't be counting on the number of pellets in a shell to make up for lack of proficiency.

Personally, if I'm shooting at something that wants to do some damage to me, I want it dead. Now. You might not have time for a second shot.

(For the record, I pack a full stock Defender, and it's filled with slugs).

Cuss you probably just need to blind it or turn it.
Think about it... buckshot sure the pack's a hell of alot more wallop than some pepper spray.

[Gateholio]

Several years ago, I did all sorts of demonstrations using bear head targets, penetration tests etc that showed why slugs are a better choice than buckshot.

Basically it is this-

At longer ranges, buckshot pattern opens too much to be effective

At closer ranges buckshot pattern is too small to increase hit potential over slugs

Buckshot doesn't penetrate nearly as well as slugs

If you hit the bear in the face to "blind it" with buckshot, you end up wiht a blind bear.Same hit with a slug would kill the bear, and if you can hit the face with buck, you can hit it with the slug.

I use to go to great lengths to demonstrate and try help, but some guys still insist the buck/slug/buck/slug combo or "2 rounds of OO followed by a slug and backed up wiht another round of OO" or "slug, buck buck slug" or whatever is the way to go, and of course, we all have our own opinions.:mrgreen:

[Will]

My point is don't risk not carrrying a gun while working due to weight and inconvenience when it could cost you your life and leave your kids without a parent when there is a viable alternative. The permiting process isn't that bad and is well worth the minimal hassle.
I'm still waiting for someone that has applied for an ATC and has been denied to get Mauled............I wonder who's liable for that ?:confused:
I'm sure any Lawyer would love that case:wink:

I applied for one and was rejected.....No I don't "work" in the bush but am Legally Licensed (ATT'S) to Transport my Restricted firearms across Canada as well as attending shoots down South of the border. Yes I can pack handguns all across the country, even in foriegn ones, keep them in Hotel rooms...strut around Gun ranges with them holstered to my hip etc. etc. etc.

Yet I cannot legally take one into the Wilderness in my own Country for my own use ? Who's at risk here ?

It's Simply Ridiculous...........

[horshur]

Several years ago, I did all sorts of demonstrations using bear head targets, penetration tests etc that showed why slugs are a better choice than buckshot.

Basically it is this-

At longer ranges, buckshot pattern opens too much to be effective

At closer ranges buckshot pattern is too small to increase hit potential over slugs

Buckshot doesn't penetrate nearly as well as slugs

If you hit the bear in the face to "blind it" with buckshot, you end up wiht a blind bear.Same hit with a slug would kill the bear, and if you can hit the face with buck, you can hit it with the slug.

I use to go to great lengths to demonstrate and try help, but some guys still insist the buck/slug/buck/slug combo or "2 rounds of OO followed by a slug and backed up wiht another round of OO" or "slug, buck buck slug" or whatever is the way to go, and of course, we all have our own opinions.:mrgreen:

Gate, Have you killed anything with Buck??? I have and it has been devastating.

[moosinaround]

whether you are packing a shotgun with slugs or OO buckshot, a 357 mag, or a 44 mag. or pepper spray, your best defense in bear country is common sense. Take a bear course, watch bear videos, talk to CO's. When working around spawning areas, or great berry patches in the ripe season, have a look out. Dont go and poke your nose into a kill, if it stinks in an area go to a different area. You have an agressive bear black or grizz, get the hell out!! Understand the warning signals a bear is giving you!! This is were training comes into play. Keep your garbage were you are working sealed, that includes lunch baggies or orange peels. when you are in bear country, which is anywhere with bush, anything is possible. Be prepared know bear behaviour, if you pack heat know how to use it. Practice, I used to practice drawing my shot gun with my field gear on, rain gear on, in the rain, in the thick stuff!! Practice shooting from the hip, in a shouldered position. even on the ground, Practice!! Just cause you have a gun with you doesnt mean you automatically know how to kill with it!! I killed 1 bear in 15 years!! I was a field guy, spent everyday in the bush. Had close calls, sure, but you have those everyday in life, and it is usually common sense that lets you make it to the next adventure. Moosin

[abbyfireguy]

Nothing but SSG here for the 12 ga Defender..
But,that being said, having a sidearm or shotgun is not a replacement for common sense when out in the bush in bear country..
You still need to be vigilant of your surroundings and signs that appear in front of you with regards to bears in the area..:roll:

[riflebuilder]

I had to kill a grizzly that charged me and a buddy. I shot it at 15 ft. I got luck and took out its spine as its head dropped as it was running at us. Since this experince I rarely ever go into the bush with out some type of bear protection. I carry a shortened barrel shotgun with a full stock in a shoulder holster. I can get it out of the holster as fast as a pistol out of a hip holster. Pistol grips on a shot gun are to small to grab quickly, and a shot gun with slugs and or SSG's have way more knockdown power than almost all pistol calibers. Unless you practice a lot with a pistol you are better of in a life or possible death situation with the shotgun. Just my 2 cents worth.

[freeman6]

I agree with Moosin. Using your head to evaluate what your senses are telling you is your first and best defense. It will keep you breathing 99% of the time. The rest of the time you may have to rely on a backup plan such as the bear spray or the firearm.

One note on the handgun issue. A licensed and permitted consultant was working in the North Thompson a couple of years ago. They spotted a gbear so the guy packing put one under the hammer and continued working. I'm not sure what happened, slip,trip, stick in the trigger guard or what. That .44 slug through his leg ruined his production and probably his ability to walk on anything but a sidewalk. The gbear never did cause any problems that anyone took any note of.

I think I will take my chances on using bear spray, or in the worst of situations, such as a search or body recovery, the full stocked 870. My body is getting old fast enough without me shooting it full of holes because I thought it would be safe enough to keep working with a live round under the hammer.

[Sitkaspruce]

Oh yeah and I forgot, the government is even worse on this issue,
At the forest service, there are 2 unions, one for techs and one for professionals; one is allowed firearms the other is not. Apparently grizzly bears can differentiate between the unions based on uniform:eek:

Now Mike

We all know that RPF' s are a dime a dozen so we can afford to loose a few, and beside they probably taste better, as they are all buttered up from all the office work they do:p;)

Cheers

Ken

[alremkin]

I agree the shotgun has better knockdown/killing power, but a pistol is much easier to carry. So at some point a gun like a 357 Mag, 10mm, 41 Mag, 44 Mag on the hip is better than a shot in the truck.

If some one works in the bush alone that person should have the option of their prefered form of protection.

Not that I'm in favor of growing bureaucracies, but it dooes seem reasonable that some form of qualification is needed before going into the bush to defend oneself from bears, wolves, cougars,ect. Say minimally Holster Qualification and some form of minimum marksmanship. The problem being this would promote quick draw competions while I don't mind this and think it would good practice before going into the bush. I wonder what the mayor of Toronto would have to say about it?:roll:

[boxhitch]

You guys are all missing the the main premise here
Why are Canadians judged to be incapable handling a firearm safely ?
Why must a few select handful prove proficiency and get a special note from home to say we are deemed ok to carry ?
Why are we told 'No, its for your own protection' ?
I want to carry a handgun because............I WANT TO !

[Big7]

One note on the handgun issue. A licensed and permitted consultant was working in the North Thompson a couple of years ago. They spotted a gbear so the guy packing put one under the hammer and continued working. I'm not sure what happened, slip,trip, stick in the trigger guard or what. That .44 slug through his leg ruined his production and probably his ability to walk on anything but a sidewalk. The gbear never did cause any problems that anyone took any note of.

I think I will take my chances on using bear spray, or in the worst of situations, such as a search or body recovery, the full stocked 870. My body is getting old fast enough without me shooting it full of holes because I thought it would be safe enough to keep working with a live round under the hammer.

Not sure where to start with this one....if the guy was dumb enough to walk around the bush with a cocked firearm...he deserves to be wounded - not the gbear!! Would you walk around with a cocked firearm deer hunting "just incase" a buck jumped out in front of you? Come on, lets be smart about this one, the thread has nothing to do with tools who obviously should have failed their PAL practical exam, but everything to do with personal safety!

If you would rather put your trust in cayene pepper, so be it! Myself...I'd rather rely on 400g of lead from a 12ga than 400mL of pepper when it came to stopping a charging bear at 10yds!

Also, why would you use a shotgun only in search or body recovery situations? Worried that a bear might get you as well? Thought you put your trust in bear spray?!

[Gateholio]

Gate, Have you killed anything with Buck??? I have and it has been devastating.

I have shot no bears personally with buckshot, but I have seen 2 black bears hit with it. One went down instantly (head shot at close range from a farmer) the other got hit in the head/shoulder area, got pissed off, ran around, climbed a tree, howled and needed a slug to take it out...

Also read and spoke to people enough with documented instances with buckshot not fully penetrating a grizzlies skull/hits to the shoudlers of bears wiht buckshot that didnt' slow them down..A slug would have broke the shoulder/penetrated into the vitals.

Of course buckshot *can* work, it's just not reliable enough that I would use it if I had other options.

Buck may be devestating-in some circumstances, but so are slugs over broader circumstances.

As always- everyone has thier own opinion, and I don't need to change anyones.:cool:

[Gateholio]

I
One note on the handgun issue. A licensed and permitted consultant was working in the North Thompson a couple of years ago. They spotted a gbear so the guy packing put one under the hammer and continued working. I'm not sure what happened, slip,trip, stick in the trigger guard or what. That .44 slug through his leg ruined his production and probably his ability to walk on anything but a sidewalk. The gbear never did cause any problems that anyone took any note of.

I think I will take my chances on using bear spray, or in the worst of situations, such as a search or body recovery, the full stocked 870. My body is getting old fast enough without me shooting it full of holes because I thought it would be safe enough to keep working with a live round under the hammer.

So...would you take a shotgun, load the chamber, take the safety off and hold it next to your body?

Nope, me neither.

Wouldn't do it with any firearm.

So in your example you have an idiot, screwing up. Has nothign to do with the type of firearm....:cool:

[Gateholio]

INot that I'm in favor of growing bureaucracies, but it dooes seem reasonable that some form of qualification is needed before going into the bush to defend oneself from bears, wolves, cougars,ect. Say minimally Holster Qualification and some form of minimum marksmanship. The problem being this would promote quick draw competions while I don't mind this and think it would good practice before going into the bush. I wonder what the mayor of Toronto would have to say about it?:roll:

So, we need hunters and anyone packing a rifle or shotgun to take the same qualifications, right?:smile:

[Gateholio]

You guys are all missing the the main premise here
Why are Canadians judged to be incapable handling a firearm safely ?
Why must a few select handful prove proficiency and get a special note from home to say we are deemed ok to carry ?
Why are we told 'No, its for your own protection' ?
I want to carry a handgun because............I WANT TO !

Attaboy...

[alremkin]

[quote=Big7;232385]Not sure where to start with this one....if the guy was dumb enough to walk around the bush with a cocked firearm...he deserves to be wounded - not the gbear!! Would you walk around with a cocked firearm deer hunting "just incase" a buck jumped out in front of you? Come on, lets be smart about this one, the thread has nothing to do with tools who obviously should have failed their PAL practical exam, but everything to do with personal safety!

This is why we have safety rules. If the guy inquestion thought he was in immediate danger of a bear attack, cock the pistol and stop working until the danger has past. If it takes an hour so what, it's better than shooting yourself in the leg. Also, this is a case where the shotgun in truck should be retrieved as well. The handgun is there just because of ease of use leaving you free to work. I know if I was working in the bush I'd want to have at least a shotgun with slugs as my main defense. If I'm attacked and have time, empty the pistol at the bear as I make my way to the shotgun or heavier Rifle, my 416. At any rate it was a mistake to work with a cocked pistol in his holster. If a threat arises deal with it then work.

[alremkin]

So, we need hunters and anyone packing a rifle or shotgun to take the same qualifications, right?:smile:

No because shooting rifles and shotguns are a more easily acquired skill than shooting a handgun.

[Walksalot]

I seen some pretty dangerous things all done in the name of bear defense. A guy with a Browning BLR with shell in chamber and hammer resting against the firing pin or a guy, scared shi*less taking the safety off and waving around a loaded rifle.

In my opinion the best bear defense weapon is one which you are totally familiar with and don't have to go searching for the safety or trying to find the target in your scope. You have practiced with it enough that it is second nature that when you shoulder the weapon the cross hairs are automatically in the general vicinity of your intended target. I haven't used open sights and have never shot an animal with a rifle equipped with open sights but I have shot animals in very close proximity to me with a scope mounted rifle and have never had a problem.

I have had close calls with bears before and so far have never had to shoot one i self defence and hope I am never in that situation. However, if I am, give me the weapon I have used for the majority of the years of hunting, almost forty, throwing it up and shooting it is second nature to me for the simple reason I have done it enough times.

[Gateholio]

No because shooting rifles and shotguns are a more easily acquired skill than shooting a handgun.

Possibly, but no person is *born* with these skills. At shooting ranges, I personally have seen far more dangerous things done with a shotgun or rifle than a handgun.

The point is that it is the person,and not the tool that should be scrutinized. If we are going to have training coursses for one type of tool, we may as well have them for all.

[GoatGuy]

Gate, Have you killed anything with Buck??? I have and it has been devastating.

Andy, I've had to go after a couple bears with buckshot and wasn't impressed. If you get a broadside shot it'd probably work well, BUT if you're using it for protection or going after a bear you're not getting a broadside shot and generally you're just shooting. The buckshot never penetrated/got anywhere close to the vitals - it all got trapped in the muscle. The slugs worked really well for what I wanted - they're show stoppers. The hunters didn't like having whopper holes in their hides but that isn't exactly the primary concern.:eek:

After having a re-enactment of the ok corral with a .338 and a grizz a couple years ago I can say for sure you never have a big enough gun or a big enough chunk of lead when the yardage is in the single digits.

[Mr. Dean]

Anybody who has any questions on how to obtain a permit give me a shout on-line and maybe I can answer some questions as I have had to go through the application process every 2 years for the past 10.

I have the 2 page application. It seems straight forward.

Question;
If a person is self employed, what are they (Gov) wanting in regards w/ employer information?

Other than a partner, I is my own boss, and we won't be cutting T-4 slips (non corporation).
Would a Business License suffice?

[Sitkaspruce]

I have the 2 page application. It seems straight forward.

Question;
If a person is self employed, what are they (Gov) wanting in regards w/ employer information?

Other than a partner, I is my own boss, and we won't be cutting T-4 slips (non corporation).
Would a Business License suffice?

Mr Dean

Mike works in the bush a lot and is usually away from a computer during the week. Not sure where he is right now, but you might not get a response form him to the weekend. It will all depend on where he is.

He might also be sitting at home right now, watching soaps and getting lazy:wink::shock:

Cheers

SS

[alremkin]

Possibly, but no person is *born* with these skills. At shooting ranges, I personally have seen far more dangerous things done with a shotgun or rifle than a handgun.

The point is that it is the person,and not the tool that should be scrutinized. If we are going to have training coursses for one type of tool, we may as well have them for all.

The most dangerous thing I've seen at a shooting range is when a guy who works in a Lower Mainland gun shop waved his pistil so that for a brief moment it pointed down the shooting line at all the shooters in that direction. This does give me cause to wonder about safety and training as this individual working in the industry would be well versed in both.

I agree that safety starts with the person.

While it's easy to say and it sounds good to have training courses for all firearms other than safety which we already have. It's because marksmanship with a handgun takes more time and practice to acquire and that people are having difficulty getting permits, that we add some form of marksmaship course. Most ethical hunters spend some time at the range honing their marksmanship. Remember we'll need to convince a few people like the mayor of Toronto that this is a good idea so adding some pistol training would help. Also, after having shot a fair bit of pistol lately I find I have a lot more confidence that I can hit something, which I believe is the bottom line. Having said all this as I first mentioned in the article, I'm not infavor of creating new bureaucracies.

[Mr. Dean]

Mr Dean

Mike works in the bush a lot and is usually away from a computer during the week. Not sure where he is right now, but you might not get a response form him to the weekend. It will all depend on where he is.

He might also be sitting at home right now, watching soaps and getting lazy:wink::shock:

Cheers

SS

That's fine. Not overly rushed.... Yet. :wink:



I have the 2 page application. It seems straight forward.

Question;
If a person is self employed, what are they (Gov) wanting in regards w/ employer information?

Other than a partner, I is my own boss, and we won't be cutting T-4 slips (non corporation).
Would a Business License suffice?

I should also add that this venture isn't a form of another "licensed" forest activity (mining, surveying, trapping ect).

It will make packing a rifle impossible and could also likely call for extended stay's in the remote bush, away from a vehicle, sleeping in a tent, working by myself, anywhere in BC. We'll also be considering the expansion, into regions of Alta and the Yukon, at a later date.


:arrow: Serious post, this isn't lip service/BS.

[Gateholio]

[QUOTE=alremkin;232548]The most dangerous thing I've seen at a shooting range is when a guy who works in a Lower Mainland gun shop waved his pistil so that for a brief moment it pointed down the shooting line at all the shooters in that direction. This does give me cause to wonder about safety and training as this individual working in the industry would be well versed in both.



The most dangerous thing(s) I have seen at ranges are similar, except they were with loaded shotguns and rifles sweeping a group of people...So we now know that all types of firearms are mishandled.:D



I agree that safety starts with the person.

good


While it's easy to say and it sounds good to have training courses for all firearms other than safety which we already have. It's because marksmanship with a handgun takes more time and practice to acquire and that people are having difficulty getting permits, that we add some form of marksmaship course. Most ethical hunters spend some time at the range honing their marksmanship. Remember we'll need to convince a few people like the mayor of Toronto that this is a good idea so adding some pistol training would help. Also, after having shot a fair bit of pistol lately I find I have a lot more confidence that I can hit something, which I believe is the bottom line. Having said all this as I first mentioned in the article, I'm not infavor of creating new bureaucracies.

More courses...:roll:

Lets get archery guys to qualify too, since I find it easier to hit with a .45 Colt than a bow..

I'd prefer we treat all firearms the same. A smart guy that depends on a firearm for defense will practice. A dumb guy can take all the courses he wants and still shoot himself in the leg..;)

[Kody94]

Several years ago, I did all sorts of demonstrations using bear head targets, penetration tests etc that showed why slugs are a better choice than buckshot.

Basically it is this-

At longer ranges, buckshot pattern opens too much to be effective

At closer ranges buckshot pattern is too small to increase hit potential over slugs

Buckshot doesn't penetrate nearly as well as slugs

If you hit the bear in the face to "blind it" with buckshot, you end up wiht a blind bear.Same hit with a slug would kill the bear, and if you can hit the face with buck, you can hit it with the slug.

I use to go to great lengths to demonstrate and try help, but some guys still insist the buck/slug/buck/slug combo or "2 rounds of OO followed by a slug and backed up wiht another round of OO" or "slug, buck buck slug" or whatever is the way to go, and of course, we all have our own opinions.:mrgreen:


I have done lots of similar testing with the same results. I don't see any advantage whatsoever to using buckshot, unless you are shooting at more than 20 yards, which is not for self protection IMHO. I only load slugs in my defender, and recommend the same to others if they ask. But to each their own in the end...no shortage of opinions on this one.

Cheers,
4Ster

[Gateholio]

Gate, Have you killed anything with Buck??? I have and it has been devastating.

Hmm, my response dissapeared so, heres the short story:

I've never personally shot a bear with buckshot. I've seen it used twice, one was good, one was pretty bad.

I've talked to several guides/hunters etc that have had poor performance with buckshot, but slugs saved the day.

Gary Shelton documented a few bears hit with buckshot with poor results.

We all have differing opinions, and mine is that the few benefits of buckshot are outweighed by it's shortcomings.

[Kody94]

Hmm, my response dissapeared so, heres the short story:

I've never personally shot a bear with buckshot. I've seen it used twice, one was good, one was pretty bad.

I've talked to several guides/hunters etc that have had poor performance with buckshot, but slugs saved the day.

Gary Shelton documented a few bears hit with buckshot with poor results.

We all have differing opinions, and mine is that the few benefits of buckshot are outweighed by it's shortcomings.

It was still there a sec ago...page 3 I think...

Cheers,
4Ster

[Will]

You guys are all missing the the main premise here
Why are Canadians judged to be incapable handling a firearm safely ?
Why must a few select handful prove proficiency and get a special note from home to say we are deemed ok to carry ?
Why are we told 'No, its for your own protection' ?
I want to carry a handgun because............I WANT TO !
I tried :icon_frow........but it's turned into another slug vs shot debatehttp://www.archerytalk.com/vb/images/smilies/animated/deadhorse.gif

[horshur]

Hmm, my response dissapeared so, heres the short story:

I've never personally shot a bear with buckshot. I've seen it used twice, one was good, one was pretty bad.

I've talked to several guides/hunters etc that have had poor performance with buckshot, but slugs saved the day.

Gary Shelton documented a few bears hit with buckshot with poor results.

We all have differing opinions, and mine is that the few benefits of buckshot are outweighed by it's shortcomings.

I don't have much experience. Could have just been lucky?. Truth been know I would rather pack my old marlin than a shotgun anyhow.

[Gateholio]

I don't have much experience. Could have just been lucky?. Truth been know I would rather pack my old marlin than a shotgun anyhow.

I'd pack whatever a person uses best, and is able to carry under the circumstances. In your case your Marlin sounds like it should work just fine:wink:

I should mention that I think that shot on cougars, bobcats, lynx, coyotes and wolves should work fine, given appropriate ranges- Although i have never shot a cougar (or any cat) with buckshot.:-D

[hunter1947]

Correct me if i am wrong ,but i think a 12 gauge slug has around five thousand foot pounds of hitting power at 20 yards.

[hunter1947]

Have you ever tried putting your scope on an animal that is full out on the run at real close range????. I have and it's almost impossible to find the animal in order to put the cross hairs on it buy looking through your scope. That's why when it comes to stopping a bear at close range you better put the scope aside and use open sights on whatever gun your using for a back up ,shotgun pistol ,ETC.

[Walksalot]

I have shot a couple of animals on the run at close range and got both of them. A third animal I missed because my pack straps were really thick and the butt of the rifle slipped off. The first two I had no problem finding the animals in my scope and putting the cross hairs on the kill zone. They both were deer so I didn't feel any threat to my personage and there is no doubt this has an influence on the outcome of the situation. I hope I can keep the same composure in a confrontation with a bear. Truth be known I have never shot a bear. This is by choice as I have never had a good enough reason.

I don't carry a shotgun back to a kill site I pack my rifle. At close range the cross hairs will always be at the center of the field of vision so I intend to put center mass in the center of the scope and shoot. I don't think a person using open sights rests the bead of front sight in the notch of the rear sight in a wet pant situation. At that distance it is simply point the weapon in the general direction and shoot, there isn't time to do anything else. I have been false charged, unarmed, and unless you have been there you don't know how fast a bear can move, they are incredibly quick.

I think it also makes a difference, as far as mind set goes, whether you are hunting/tracking a bear and any other bear/hunter interaction. The first scenario you know or you are hunting/tracking the animal so you are ready for a confrontation. The latter scenarios you have bears in the back of you mind but are cautiously optimistic you will be able to avoid a confrontation.

[CanuckShooter]

Many people do not know that if you work in the bush timber cruising, doing layout or forest consulting work that you probably qualify to get a permit to carry a restricted weapon (handgun) for the purpose of protecting yourself from dangerous predators. I have a permit and would no longer go into the bush working without my handgun; it has saved my partner's life from a griz once .

I vote for equality !!! We should all be permitted to carry a restricted firearm to protect ourselves from predators!!!

[Stone Sheep Steve]

More crap in the news yesterday about banning handguns in the wake of the Gang-style murders in Vanc...and the innocent victims in Toronto a couple of days ago.

SSS

[Bow Walker]

It's my view that if a "confrontation" happens it is by definition a big surprise to the confrontee. It happens when least expected and it happens fast. I'm talking about the difference between when a bear bluff charges and then actually charging you with lethal intent. Even when bluffing/intimidating you and coming really close - how are you supposed to tell the difference.

Point is that if you are packing your defense on your back you had better be able to unlimber it in one hellova hurry and be able to get that critical first round off accurately - all of this while that warm smelly wet stuff is sliding down your legs and into your socks.

[Ron.C]

I,m a bowhunter, but if I do ever hunt with a gun, I think I would still carry my spray regardless. Here is an interesting link on the use of bear spray. One of the authors of this article is the co-author of the book " Bear Attacks". He is pretty well informed and is probably one of the leading subject matter experts on this topic.

http://www.absc.usgs.gov/research/brownbears/pepperspray/pepperspray.htm

[Mr. Dean]

Pepper spray.


My thoughts are; if my life IS in iminent danger, I'd rather have lethality on my side as an equalizer.

It's only fair...

[Kody94]

Correct me if i am wrong ,but i think a 12 gauge slug has around five thousand foot pounds of hitting power at 20 yards.

They only range from 2500 ft-lbs (2 3/4" shell) to 3500 ft-lbs at the muzzle (3" saboted slugs).

Plenty enough to make a mess out of a bear at spitting distance though. :) 'specially with the .729" entrance hole.

Cheers,
4Ster

[Gateholio]

Have you ever tried putting your scope on an animal that is full out on the run at real close range????. I have and it's almost impossible to find the animal in order to put the cross hairs on it buy looking through your scope. That's why when it comes to stopping a bear at close range you better put the scope aside and use open sights on whatever gun your using for a back up ,shotgun pistol ,ETC.


Keep both eyes open.Practice shooting that way.

Then you have a sight vision of the whole creature, itht eh X hair wherever you want.

Center of mass works well, I htink:p

[Clint_S]

Only shot one bear with 00. He was harrasing my chained dogs to get their food and treed about 10m up when I released them. It was basically a quartering away shot angle wise and he dropped dead on hitting the ground.

I suppose if I had a stock of some type on my defender I would go for slugs as they without a doubt pack more of a punch especially if you can place them where you want them. On a pistol grip model I will always go for 00 as they are harder to aim and the pattern just increases your odds of putting one in the brain. They are devastating at close range which is the only range I'm going to be shooting a bear with a pistol grip shotgun anyway. I'm not going to shoot a bear who's just acting aggressive at 30 yards.

So I guess what I'm saying is when considering slugs/buck you also need to consider type of weapon and intended use.

[Mr. Dean]

I have the 2 page application. It seems straight forward.

Question;
If a person is self employed, what are they (Gov) wanting in regards w/ employer information?

Other than a partner, I is my own boss, and we won't be cutting T-4 slips (non corporation).
Would a Business License suffice?




I should also add that this venture isn't a form of another "licensed" forest activity (mining, surveying, trapping ect).

It will make packing a rifle impossible and could also likely call for extended stay's in the remote bush, away from a vehicle, sleeping in a tent, working by myself, anywhere in BC. We'll also be considering expansion, into regions of Alta and the Yukon, at a later date.


:arrow: Serious post, this isn't lip service/BS.

Noticed your around, thought I'd bump my question.

[kutenay]

I have read this entire thread with great interest and my thoughts are few and simple.

ALL Canadians not convicted of a violent crime HAVE a fundamental right, from birth, to own/carry ANY gun they want, period. Thus, I totally agree with Boxhitch and Gates on this.

After many years of solo wilderness and forestry work, 1965-1993, I found that MOST guns, and I have had about 150 of them, have quite a few now, are TOO MUCH trouble to carry when working, so, very few of us did. WHEN I did, what seemed the most crucial aspect of type, etc. of gun was total familiarity and stopping power, not so much exactly what is best.

My choices are a Browning 1886 SRC with XS ghost ring sights and front post loaded with Swift A-Frames at close to 2000 fps-mv, chrono'ed and a custom P-64 Mod. 70 in .375H&H with a 20" tube, Recknagel "firesite"irons and OD mts. with a Leupy 2.5xCMHD scope. Both are easy to handle, fast, smooth feeding and reliable, they DO have recoil and need continual practice to be proficient with.

I also have a Ruger Redhawk sts., 5.5" in .44M., loaded with Bullet Barn 250HCs over a big dose of H-110. This IS a heavy revolver, but, not bad to shoot, accurate and tough to break. It is, as are the previous two, very suited to the task, but, it requires staying in practice to be worth packing and I usually can't be bothered.

The major problem with specific guns such as these is COST and a lot of younger workers, with student loans, families and so forth cannot afford such weapons. So, a good 870 or Benelli Nova loaded with Brennekes is about the best alternative, I have had and do have both and find Brennekes the only slug I trust, after some basic tests.

If, you do not make time to rigourously practice with your bear gun, it is a waste of energy packing it. I also tried pepper spray and found that itr blinded me in a small breeze here in Vancouver, so, I will not pack it. What would you do if blinded beside a cold, fast BC stream with an irate Grizzly attacking you.....drown or choose mauling?????

I read the blurb by Dr. Tom Smith, knew Stephen Herrero some 30 years ago and supervised his partner, "John" from California the year they both "dodged" into the Kootenays, 1969, on a treeplant for the BCFS up Shannon Creek in the Slocan. I respect Herrero's scientific work, disagreed with his book in it's first edition and noticed that he changed his opinions a mite in the subsequent version; he is NOT what I consider a true authority on dealing with dangerous bears while working in the bush.

We NEED to get vocal on this issue and get a change to the Canadian Constitution to protect our gun rights,, including carrying a handgun if we wish. When I was young, NOBODY would EVER have thought that "gay marriage"could be possible, now it is commonplace, so, things CAN be changed...........

[hunter1947]

I know wear you are coming from ,there is just one issue you said that i don't agree with ,you said that bear spray would be a problem if a small breeze ,you would get blinded????. What if there was no breeze at all at the time and the bear was on top of you ,or there was a breeze at the time ???. I myself wouldn't want this animal on top of me and me playing the dead person thing ,if a cougar was on top of you do you think it is going to give you a bit of a malling ,no he is going to kill you ,or that of a black bear. Most times yes if a Griz is on top of you and you play dead he will mall you a bit then go off ,but not in all cases. Say the Griz or other was on top of you and you didn't get a shot or two at it ???. you didn't have a hand gun to pull out ???. A hunter or other can startled a bear buy getting over a log in the bush or walking in or out of your hunting spot in the dark ,bang he or they are on you before can do anything. Yes I will carry bear spray and yes i will use it for my last resort.http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/images/icons/icon12.gif.

[kutenay]

Well, I think that each person should do as they feel best, I prefer a noisemaker to warn bears that I am in the vicinity and a gun when I feel it might be needed.

I never carried a gun on most backpacking/climbing/fishing/skiing/snowshoing trips and still don't. I have had quite a number of bear encounters while alone and far into the bush, but, have never been attacked and maybe your idea is right, although I would prefer my .44M in such a scenario.

[Tanya]

Tanya,s hubby John here;

For the record I am a dairy farmer who grows corn on Vancouver Island. For about the last 8 years we have been in a buckshot or bow only designated area. During that period between my family and friends we have taken roughly 15 bears with buckshot. Right around six of those have been at under 10 yards. (our creek bottoms and corn fields are incredibly thick.) All six of those bears , several of which were head on went down in a heap. I,ve also followed up on several wounded bears with a shotgun in real thick stuff and I feel your better off in this situation with buckshot than anything else. Just my 2 cents but the African PH and writer Peter Capstick says he uses buckshot to follow up wounded leopards.
On another note a friend of mine was actually mauled and he said it happened so fast all he had time to do was turtle.

[ryanhuntslots]

Quoting Tanya-"On another note a friend of mine was actually mauled and he said it happened so fast all he had time to do was turtle."

Thats where the handgun comes in handy, if a large furry critter is ontop of you chewing on your mellon no rifle or shotgun in the world is going to help, But if you can get your pistol out of the holster and press it up into said furry critter, at least your going down swinging,

[hunter1947]

Quoting Tanya-"On another note a friend of mine was actually mauled and he said it happened so fast all he had time to do was turtle."

Thats where the handgun comes in handy, if a large furry critter is ontop of you chewing on your mellon no rifle or shotgun in the world is going to help, But if you can get your pistol out of the holster and press it up into said furry critter, at least your going down swinging,
How many of us carry hand guns when out hunting ???. Yes i agree that a 44m or other would be the answer ,this law makes it hard to get a hand gun and all the other BS you need to go with it. The law should be changed so it is easier to have a handgun when hunting. This is why i think very little hunters carry hand guns ??????.

[KodiakHntr]

Considering its illegal, probably very few.

While working however, is a different story.

[kutenay]

How many of us carry hand guns when out hunting ???. Yes i agree that a 44m or other would be the answer ,this law makes it hard to get a hand gun and all the other BS you need to go with it. The law should be changed so it is easier to have a handgun when hunting. This is why i think very little hunters carry hand guns ??????.

When I started, quite a few guys would quietly pack, usually a .22 for Grouse and the RCMP were generally cool witrh this. People lived in the same small towns for their entire lives and everyone knew each other, now, so many cops are foreigners hired for political reasons and are tactical ninja nutbars that it is not worth the risk to carry without a permit.

I agree, a native Canadian or naturalized citizen HAS the birthright to carry whatever, but, the oppressive governemts here deny this and one has to consider the consequences of being caught.

If, you DO shoot a Grizzly off you in an attack, you will have to explain just how you did this with a .44M pistol; if you don't report the kill, you will face BOTH the handgun use/possession charges AND action under the Wildlife Act for killing the bear, so................

Same old story, ordinary Canucks get f**ked by the government, while wealthy people and certain groups get special privileges....makes ya proud of our country, don't it?