Regulation Proposals Kootenay

[#1fishslayer]

http://wlapwww.gov.bc.ca/kor/wld/pdf/Kootenay_Region_regulations_%20proposals_%202008_0 9.pdf

Found this surfing around. :)

[CoqTrophys]

opening a 3 point or better GOS for elk would be a crying shame.

[brotherjack]

No worries there - the letters have come in, and the 3 point elk season got shot down (or so I read on another thread).

But really, what's a crying shame, is that we have so many elk that they're issuing cow/calf tags by the hundreds, running an open jr/sr season on cow/calf elk, but the vast majority of hunters, who surveys show really just want to fill the freezer with the first vaguely legal critter, are still stuck hunting for six point elk (many/most of us to no avail and great frustration).

[BCrams]

The voice of a few trophy hunters kept the 6 pt season in.

There is no reason not to be able to have a 3 point bull elk season for those who would just love the opportunity at taking a bull without having to put the time and effort which is commonly required to be successful for 6 point bulls.

[tracker]

They could alway's open it up for 3 point and better in a time lot,say for half of the general open season.I hear there are alot of huge 5x5's running around now lol :p

[brotherjack]

That was the proposal that just got shot down. And yes, there are some monster 5x5's running around in the EK.

[gitnadoix]

The outfitters dont want their future money bulls shot.....they have no vested intrest in allowing residents to shoot an animal that they can sell in 4 years.

[GoatGuy]

The outfitters dont want their future money bulls shot.....they have no vested intrest in allowing residents to shoot an animal that they can sell in 4 years.

The rejection of the proposal has nothing to do with outfitters - rejection of the proposals were driven strictly by residents.

There will be more work done surveying and tracking the elk population in the EK this winter and it's my guess that more liberal seasons will happen regardless of who's on board. Whether it's strictly homesteader pops or both there will be way more leh auth's or a move to more liberal bull seasons.

Next year I'm betting you'll see far more cow/calf permits in the WK too.

[happygilmore]

So no changes to the turkey bag limit then!

[kutenay]

I strongly support a GOS and a 3-point season for the West Kootenays, there are enough Elk to maintain population levels and this is one way of ensuring a harvest opportunity for more hunters which will assist with hunter recruitment.

I can remember when the hunting there was for fun and meat, not for some "mystique" about antler size induced by reading American hunting mags. full of photos of crop-fed, farm-raised, guide-found "trophies" that some dude paid multi-mega bux. to "harvest". In short, it was local people using a local resource, as it should be, IMO.

I have hunted elsewhere, province-wide, but really prefer to "go home"to hunt and Elk are my favourite quarry, so, obviously, this would be a great thing for me. I also support more Turkey hunting and am goinf this year as I have missed three spring seasons due to domestic concerns, I intend to scout them hard before the season opens and shoot the "herd bull" gobbler.

[hunter1947]

My opinion on a 3 point season at lower elevations would be a good idea for 10 days. It would help balance bull elk that will never develop into a 6x6 or bigger ,it would balance out the jean pool in the latter years. This three point 10 day season could be implemented for a few years ,then if the results are not what they should be ,then put a stop to it. They the game department should be able to see in a few years if the cow to bull ratio has the right percentage. This opening of three point bulls for 10 days would also take the presser off the six point bull elk. I say they should give it a try for a few years ,they have nothing to loose ,but maybe lots to gain at the end ???.

[wetcoasthunter]

The rejection of the proposal has nothing to do with outfitters - rejection of the proposals were driven strictly by residents.



Ya, no kidding it was squashed by locals. Who have every weekend to go and try and get that 6pt, they don't want any more "outsiders". Where does that leave the rest of the province's hunters that usually only have a week and want to come try their luck in the Kootneys. Once again, hunter selfishness slowly killing us off. Enough of these rediculous pt. restrictions, open it up, spread the hunter demand around the whole province instead of just 1 or 2 areas (ie 7B).

Half the hunters and double (or more) the resrictions, does this make sense to anyone besides the powers that be?

[Fisher-Dude]

Ya, no kidding it was squashed by locals. Who have every weekend to go and try and get that 6pt, they don't want any more "outsiders". Where does that leave the rest of the province's hunters that usually only have a week and want to come try their luck in the Kootneys. Once again, hunter selfishness slowly killing us off. Enough of these rediculous pt. restrictions, open it up, spread the hunter demand around the whole province instead of just 1 or 2 areas (ie 7B).

Half the hunters and double (or more) the resrictions, does this make sense to anyone besides the powers that be?

Couldn't have said it better myself. People's short-sighted selfishness will mean that very soon, they will never be allowed to hunt again. Don't believe me? Just watch.

[hunter1947]

Ya, no kidding it was squashed by locals. Who have every weekend to go and try and get that 6pt, they don't want any more "outsiders". Where does that leave the rest of the province's hunters that usually only have a week and want to come try their luck in the Kootneys. Once again, hunter selfishness slowly killing us off. Enough of these rediculous pt. restrictions, open it up, spread the hunter demand around the whole province instead of just 1 or 2 areas (ie 7B).

Half the hunters and double (or more) the resrictions, does this make sense to anyone besides the powers that be? The guide outfitter have a big say in the elk regulations ,don't kid yourself. When aliens come into our country to hunt do they want to shoot a dinky little 3 point ,NO. If you do a research on the revenue that Canadians spend hear in BC. Then do a research on how much the aliens bring ,you will be surprised ,it favors the BC residence six to one. My friend in Cranbrook did a research on this 7 years ago to find this out ,boy was i surprised.

[BCrams]

The guide outfitter have a big say in the elk regulations ,don't kid yourself. When aliens come into our country to hunt do they want to shoot a dinky little 3 point ,NO. If you do a research on the revenue that Canadians spend hear in BC. Then do a research on how much the aliens bring ,you will be surprised ,it favors the BC residence six to one. My friend in Cranbrook did a research on this 7 years ago to find this out ,boy was i surprised.

Who says they have to shoot a 3 point? It is just a minimum - you can still hold out for a 6 pt bull!

[Fisher-Dude]

The guide outfitter have a big say in the elk regulations ,don't kid yourself. When aliens come into our country to hunt do they want to shoot a dinky little 3 point ,NO. If you do a research on the revenue that Canadians spend hear in BC. Then do a research on how much the aliens bring ,you will be surprised ,it favors the BC residence six to one. My friend in Cranbrook did a research on this 7 years ago to find this out ,boy was i surprised.

Interestingly, in the 80s I was hunting the 3 point season, when the G/O happened to over-call a 5 point raghorn. It bailed on him to find its cows and ran right into me, so I popped it. After we had it packed out, the G/O comes by our camp and was showing off to his hunter by yapping that they wouldn't be shooting anything like that bull. After he gives his spew and struts around our camp (note: this guy had a .44 pistol displayed proudly on his belt :???: ) he said they were heading back to their camp and helping to pack a 3 point out that one of their hunters shot the day before. Go figure.

Most yanks from New Yawk want whatever they can get on their walls to impress their friends/business associates. A "huge 3 point (they call 3 points "6 pointers" in yank talk anyways) wild bull elk" they shot in the remote Canadian wilderness is all it takes.

[6616]

When we had 2 1/2 month 3pt or better GOS elk season back in the 70's and early '80 we still had lots of big 6pt bulls, selective hunters could still do OK if they held out for the big guys. There's no question about the sustainability of the proposal, it was just not supported by many of the local clubs (not all). It's exactly like GG and WCH said. The 6pt GOS in the WK is also a sustainable hunt, again not supported by "some" of the WK clubs which is pretty wierd since they are subject to the same LEH odds as everyone else (once in a lifetime if you're very lucky)

The turkey proposal was passed by the Wildlife Harvest Advisory Committee, there will be a fall turkey season, likewise with the proposed GOS on spike/fork moose, although thats not a given yet as the FN people are unhappy with it.

The WLB has still not indicated any final decisions, the above is just from the hunter Advisory Committee.

Bull/cow and calf/cow ratios for elk are 30/100 and 35/100 currently.
In 1970/1980 bull/cow ratio was 20/100 and no one was worried about it, the cows were getting bred and the population was expanding, everyone was happy except the ranchers who were getting ate out of house and home much like is occurring again here now!

[kutenay]

So, is it time to eliminate "non-resident alien" hunting in the Kootenays, IMO, it IS and should be done forthwith. But, the Campbell regime listens to big business, the MoE staffers do what they are told or lose their jobs, pensions,etc. and WE suffer.

My family has lived in the Kootenays for 115 years and in BC since 1870, very simply, MY rights are MORE important than some foreigner's desire to kill OUR wildlife, end of story. ALL BC resident hunters have EQUAL rights to hunt ANYWHERE in this province and I ENJOY meeting guys from Victoria or Pouce Coupe when trekking along a trail at home in the Kootenays AND I gladly share my knowledge of where Elk are, except when a friend or relative has given me a tip and asked me to keep it to myself.

We need to get a LOT more aggressive about OUR rights, needs and wants where OUR resources are concerned and do it now!!!

[Elkaholic]

So the turkey season has gone through as it is stated in the changes PDF? If so that is a terrible mistake as they will be slaughtered. Why do we need to shoot the hens? Also if it is because of landowner complaints, maybe the government should allow the local chapter of the NWTF to do re-location of the problems bird to disperse the population. I know for a fact that there is one person in Victoria that thinks turkeys should not be in BC and wants all of them gone. The turkey season has started to bring in a lot of revenue to local areas and now this will totally destroy the birds.

As for elk, I think there should be some sort of 3pt season. Be it a sort 10 day one or what ever, there needs to be some culling of sub 6pt bulls to sort out the gene pool.

[6616]

I guess we would do that if we really thought it was remotely possible Kutenay but then reality sets in, and we realize the GO industry is here to stay, so we learn to live with it.

Besides isn't it somewhat similar to the local/non-local issue with British Columbian's protecting their local honey holes from out of area resident hunters. I've hunted antelope in Montana and Wyoming, deer in Saskatchewan and Alberta, I'd sure like to keep those opportunities available and that might mean reciprocating.

[#1fishslayer]

I would think that alot of people would show up for a 3pt season. Everyone wants to eat Elk. I would go and I would find the nicest legal bull and that would be that. Now if 4500 hunters crashed into the Koots for ten days, would it be safe to say lots of Bulls would be killed. Im thinking it would be the hottest thing since sliced bread. I would be wearing blaze orange forsure. How many of you would go?

[rocksteady]

. Who have every weekend to go and try and get that 6pt, they don't want any more "outsiders". Where does that leave the rest of the province's hunters that usually only have a week and want to come try their luck in the Kootneys. Once again, hunter selfishness slowly killing us off. Enough of these rediculous pt. restrictions, open it up, spread the hunter demand around the whole province instead of just 1 or 2 areas (ie 7B).

So how is this elk season/location different than if I wish to go to the P.G. area and try to find a calf or 2 pt moose..?????

Or me going to the Fraser River for a fishing trip versus a guy that lives in Chilliwack

Just playing devils advocate here????

[kutenay]

No, it is not and I did not say that other CANADIANS should be barred from hunting here, actually, I would INCREASE their opportunities at the expense of American "trophy" collectors and other foreigners.

As to the GO "industry", do you mean all the foreign-owned outfits that do anything they can to restrict OUR opportunities, access and harvest levels? I could care less about whether that Yank who owns "Canadian Mountain Outfitters" and brings in big name US gunwriters to "hunt" OUR relatively rare game is happy or not, the SOB broke our laws and I would deport his azz back to "Orygun" post-haste, if I could.

The reciprocation works in THEIR favour as they kill more Stone's Sheep than we do, etc.; in any event, it IS going to happen because people here want it to and those who do not are in the minority. The Kootenays now are so expensive to buy a home in due to rich Yanks that many cannot retire there and all of this needs to end, right now.

[6616]

[quote=Elkaholic;230979]So the turkey season has gone through as it is stated in the changes PDF? If so that is a terrible mistake as they will be slaughtered. Why do we need to shoot the hens? Also if it is because of landowner complaints, maybe the government should allow the local chapter of the NWTF to do re-location of the problems bird to disperse the population. I know for a fact that there is one person in Victoria that thinks turkeys should not be in BC and wants all of them gone. The turkey season has started to bring in a lot of revenue to local areas and now this will totally destroy the birds.

I didn't mean it had gone through Elkaholic, the KWHAC passed it but the WLB has still not made a final decision, nor have the WLB final proposals been sent to Victoria yet. The proposal was pretty well supported by the web site input and KWHAC and I believe it will be approved by the WLB. The BCWF EK Region is very supportive of the NWTF translocation proposals and also campaigned heavily for the creation of a tag for turkey's as NWTF also proposed, and that campaign is still ongoing, but as you say Victoria is not suppoprtive.

The Branch biologists feel the turkey proposal for the EK is sustainable when populations are at a high cycle. Turkey populations can decline dramatically during bad winters, but bounce back quickly, so enters the old adage that you can't stockpile wildlife. The hen regulation is feasible only during high population cycles, these regulations can be changed as often as needed in response to population conditions.

[kutenay]

You mean actual close monitored, hands-on wildlife management, gawd, if only!

[bckev]

Does anyone know if a three point elk season has been looked at for the okanagan?

[hunter1947]

Who says they have to shoot a 3 point? It is just a minimum - you can still hold out for a 6 pt bull! That's what i am saying ,the aliens will hold out for the big head gear on elk ,not the little donkers.

[model88]

I ain't even gunna get involved in this one. Everybody is entitled to an opinion, some should just keep them to themselves.

[Islandeer]

Kutenay, our family have hunted in the E and W Kootenay fo over 60 years. It is a great land, rich in game and full of great people. What you are saying is bang on,BC residents should have user preferance when it comes to allocation. GO do contribute to local economies. However their bullying tactics are getting pretty old. I know i speak for many Vancouver Islanders who consider it a privilage to hunt the Kootenay region.

Yes, I have skirted this issue but echo the more reasonable posts.

[kutenay]

If, the comment about keeping one's opinions to oneself was in reference to me, my reply is probably best not posted. I have had enough of the attitude that we whose ancestors built, fought and died for Canada/BC should somehow take second place to immigrants, foreigners and those who sell off our natural heritage for their own cheap profit.

As posted earlier, BC residents contribute FAR more in revenue to the BC government coffers than do foreigners and/or GOs, HOWEVER, this hunting/fishing is OUR birthright and I, for one, will continue to stand up for OUR rights.

...Reasonable...does NOT, IMO. constitute giving up what is OURS and THAT has been happening since WWII, in the Kootenays. The Columbia River Treaty for example, DEVASTATED the Kootenays and greatly benefited the USA, I KNOW, I was there. We need to either protect what is ours by birth AND this INCLUDES hunters from Victoria, like it or not, or sit back and watch our hunting/fishing go south, in more ways than one.

Anyway, I have made my point and will continue to lobby where and when I think it productive, to save OUR hunting/angling heritage.

[pork n beans]

hello all. I think that removing restrictions for resident hunters which will help resident hunter opportunity and diet and not jeopardize conservation is a good thing

now i'm from the island and i won't go and hunt the GOS for elk in the kootenays cuz it's not my turf and you all should have freezers full. But in the same token any restrictions we place on other people will hurt us all.
As a resident hunter i don't want to remove any right or opportunity from other resident hunters. Cuz prettty soon there's gonna be something that i like to do not allowed because of protectionist views of some self interested minority

Any increased opportunity should be celebrated by all BC residents as a success in population management. Any increased opportunity if good for all is good for you too.

I think that managing game for big antlers and only allowing privileged people with money to hunt them is bullshit. I believe that hunting should be maintained as an opportunity for people to acquire and consume a sustainable source of protein. It's what has enabled us to evolve into what we are today. I'm not against trophy hunting though if you want to spend more $ and more time for shit you can't eat go ahead. We all hunt for different reasons but the fact is we all hunt and that point is what should be protected and a reason for unity.

[Everett]

I personally believe the answer to guide outfitters taking foreigners to shoot our animals is a middle of the road approach. If it is animal species that is on LEH than no foreigners should be hunting that species because obviosly there is not enough of that species for residents. If its a GOS than have at it because there is enough to go around. Residents should get first Dibs on all Animal Species and the outfitters get whats left. So for example Mountain Goats, Moose, and Grizzly in the Kootenays should be closed to foreign hunting because there is obviosly not enough tags for residents if not enough people put in for a hunt (first choice no second choices) than those left over tags would be made availble to the guide in the area. This way we keep jobs and the resident get first opputunity. Just my two cents

[kutenay]

YOU have just as much right as I do to hunt the Kootenays, the Muskwa-Kechika or ANY part of BC, that is my whole point. Your post is EXCELLENT and I could not agree with your hunting philosophy more.

My late uncle, who got me started shooting in 1958, used to live in Campbell River, neat place, he know Haig-Brown quite well and HB is among my greatest lifetime heros.

[kutenay]

Everett, I USED to think exactly as you do, but, HOW MANY guides come from Alberta because the "local" GO will not hire local guys who might bring their friends back later to his best areas? This is happening in northern BC, where the big GOs also buy supplies in Alberta to avoid BC taxes.

Is THIS contributing to jobs and the BC economy, I think not.

[TPK]

Residents should get first Dibs on all Animal Species and the outfitters get whats left.

The new allocation policies should address this concern where the percentages are out of whack but it will take a while to get some of the allocations back to a level where resident hunters once again have the clear majority of the allocated animals. I feel there is a need for Guide outfitters, they need to make a living and should be accomodated but resident hunters should have the majority of the animals on LEH and our priority should be above that of the GO's clientel. To just say an animal on LEH should only be hunted by residents and that GO's should not be allowed to sell hunts for these animals is wrong (imo).

[Islandeer]

Kutenay,

Glad to hear it's okay for us island hunters to hunt the koots. Especially those of us from Victoria.

[model88]

If, the comment about keeping one's opinions to oneself was in reference to me, my reply is probably best not posted. I have had enough of the attitude that we whose ancestors built, fought and died for Canada/BC should somehow take second place to immigrants, foreigners and those who sell off our natural heritage for their own cheap profit.

As posted earlier, BC residents contribute FAR more in revenue to the BC government coffers than do foreigners and/or GOs, HOWEVER, this hunting/fishing is OUR birthright and I, for one, will continue to stand up for OUR rights.

...Reasonable...does NOT, IMO. constitute giving up what is OURS and THAT has been happening since WWII, in the Kootenays. The Columbia River Treaty for example, DEVASTATED the Kootenays and greatly benefited the USA, I KNOW, I was there. We need to either protect what is ours by birth AND this INCLUDES hunters from Victoria, like it or not, or sit back and watch our hunting/fishing go south, in more ways than one.

Anyway, I have made my point and will continue to lobby where and when I think it productive, to save OUR hunting/angling heritage.

The comment about keeping one's opinion to themselves wasn't directed at anybody in particular. So just relax.

[kutenay]

ID, my point is IN SUPPORT of you and all hunters like you, NOT intended as some sort of "attitude"; I just want to make this clear as I feel that ALL BC residents are EQUAL and that is a lifelong belief of mine.

[Islandeer]

kute,

I was pretty sure of that, good on yah. My sarcasm is usually an attempt to lighten things up.:roll:

[325]

I agree that hunting opportunities should be given to residence first. However, it is important to keep in mind that the significant lobbying power of the GOs can also help residents. For example, the government is always under pressure from anti-hunting groups to ban the grizzly hunt. It is the GOs as much as anyone who aggressively lobby the government to maintain the hunt. If GOs were to go, I think we would see a paradox where resident opportunities would decrease rather than increase.

Just my 2 cents.

[J_T]

Hi all. I'm confused. I know, that's normal for those that know me.

What I'm confused about is the subject of this thread and the response by readers.

In Region 4, the final report for recommendations has not been finalized or submitted. (Or if it has, I am horribly out of the loop)

Assuming that I'm not completely out of the loop. What was posted initially on this post was the proposal and mechanism input.

As has previously been stated, the Hunting Advisory committee is but one component of the ultimate recommendation. I can tell you that most items that Resident hunters would want, were supported at that comittee by committee members.

At present, the final recommendation for changes in Region 4 has not been completed. But we can expect it within the next week or two.

But we all got worked up about the possibilities. Felt like the passion of a campfire.

[brotherjack]

Hi all. I'm confused. I know, that's normal for those that know me.

What I'm confused about is the subject of this thread and the response by readers.

In Region 4, the final report for recommendations has not been finalized or submitted. (Or if it has, I am horribly out of the loop)


It was reported by 6616 in another thread, that:



It was reported at the last Kootenay Wildlife Harvest Advisory Committee (KWHAC) meeting that the Ministry got just over 60 responses regarding the proposal for a short GOS on three point bull elk, and the majority were against the proposal. As a result this proposal is dead in the water.

Is this incorrect?

[Nooker77]

I dont think there would be anything wrong with GOS for 3pt or better..I'm sure the woods would be ALOT busier than they are...I'd even like to see the 5pt season again....I've seen more 5pts the last 3 years...as for waiting for the TROPHY 6pter....just finding a legal bull is tough...hunted 3 weeks HARD this year....father in law missed a nice 6 and I got a small 6 X5...the Sr's/Jr's cleaned up on the cows....we visited a camp with 6 cow heads and 5 small wt bucks!! Not sure how many guys in the camp but it was a large camp with about a dozen chairs around there table! The 6pt season has done what it was supposed to do...its time for a change.....dont want to go the LEH route...hard to get back to open season after that! my 2cents!
Wish I could make the "meat" and greet in Kelowna this weekend....next year!!!
Cheers Nook:lol:

[Nooker77]

Well said Pork and Beans!! good for you!!

[J_T]

BJ

Quote:
Originally Posted by 6616
It was reported at the last Kootenay Wildlife Harvest Advisory Committee (KWHAC) meeting that the Ministry got just over 60 responses regarding the proposal for a short GOS on three point bull elk, and the majority were against the proposal. As a result this proposal is dead in the water.

Is this incorrect? I haven't seen the proposal that is moving forward. Until then, I'm an optimist. I received an email from the Regional Bio today and his comment was that they hope to have the final recommendations prepared by next week. 6616 does have an inside track, however again, I'm an optimist and someone has to justify to me, why something is not going to happen. Who are the players? Who are the decision makers? Why do we have a process of consultation and input?

[palmer]

I personally believe the answer to guide outfitters taking foreigners to shoot our animals is a middle of the road approach. If it is animal species that is on LEH than no foreigners should be hunting that species because obviosly there is not enough of that species for residents. If its a GOS than have at it because there is enough to go around. Residents should get first Dibs on all Animal Species and the outfitters get whats left. So for example Mountain Goats, Moose, and Grizzly in the Kootenays should be closed to foreign hunting because there is obviosly not enough tags for residents if not enough people put in for a hunt (first choice no second choices) than those left over tags would be made availble to the guide in the area. This way we keep jobs and the resident get first opputunity. Just my two cents

100% right...Not enough for every BCer...not enough to buy yourself one.

[6616]

BJ I haven't seen the proposal that is moving forward. Until then, I'm an optimist. I received an email from the Regional Bio today and his comment was that they hope to have the final recommendations prepared by next week. 6616 does have an inside track, however again, I'm an optimist and someone has to justify to me, why something is not going to happen. Who are the players? Who are the decision makers? Why do we have a process of consultation and input?

J_T is actually correct BJ, the official proposals have not been finalized yet, but Jim's being optimistic as he said. IMO there was just too much web-site based opposition to the proposal to expect MOE to seriously consider it at this time and I sensed a lot of trepidation with MOE biologists in going against this public input. The Regional Section Head stated at the KWHAC meeting that it could be initiated as a jr/sr hunt in the x-zones for 2008, but that he would prefer to wait until the elk census is completed before making a decision on the broader GOS. The census will not be completed in time for this to be included in this years submission to Victoria so I feel pretty strongly that it will not happen this year. I don't have an inside track, this is just what I feel is almost certainly what is going to occur.
There's always next year!

[6616]

J_T is actually correct BJ, the official proposals have not been finalized yet, but Jim's being optimistic as he said. IMO there was just too much web-site based opposition to the proposal to expect MOE to seriously consider it at this time and I sensed a lot of trepidation with MOE biologists in going against this public input. The Regional Section Head stated at the KWHAC meeting that it could be initiated as a jr/sr hunt in the x-zones for 2008, but that he would prefer to wait until the elk census is completed before making a decision on the broader GOS. The census will not be completed in time for this to be included in this years submission to Victoria so I feel pretty strongly that it will not happen this year. I don't have an inside track, this is just what I feel is almost certainly what is going to occur.
There's always next year!


It's kinna funny when you think about the conservative nature of wildlife management today?,,,,we're overrun with elk, the ranchers are getting eaten out of house and home (so they say), MOE and MOFR are very concerned about range health and overgrazing, and elk being near or over carrying capacity ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, and we have wait for a survey..!!!

[bcbooner]

I have hunted Elk in the East Koot. for 18 years and think implamenting a GOS for 3pt or better Elk would destroy the quality of Elk hunting we have today.Bull numbers are up because every bull that comes into a call with more than 3pts is not pounded as they were in the past.Hunting Elk is about the thrill off working a Bull not just filling your tag.Nothing is more thrilling than hiking into a basin and having a number off good bulls responding to your call and then choosing the one you want to pursue.This was almost impossable when they used to have a 3pt season.Sure hunting would be great for a few years then it would be back to rag horns not quality Bulls.Leave things alone,Elk hunting has never been better than it is now.I put in my two weeks every year and never have a problem finding or harvesting a Bull.While doing so i get the thrill to bugle in and play with a number off lesser Bulls.The 6pt Bulls are there in good numbers if a person is willing to put in the time and effort to hunt them where they live.Going back to a GOS for 3pts is not the answere.

[brotherjack]

Hunting Elk is about the thrill off working a Bull not just filling your tag.

That's your opinion - it ain't mine (nor most "meat hunters", if surveys are even remotely true). My idea of a "quality elk hunt" is one that ends with an elk of any legal size or sex, cut and wrapped and in my freezer. :)

[6616]

It's a social question, do we want quality hunting for decicated trophy hunters and probable continued decline in hunter participation, or quantity hunting for many with high success rates to keep interest high and a chance to increase participation, along with increased political clout, etc.

[Islandeer]

No brainer, horns taste like crap. The greenies are having a field day with the trophy hunting mantra. Why can't the horn hunters see and understand this?

[hunter1947]

If you do a research for the island on guide outfitters ,you will find that the outfitters will get 2 or 3 elk tags given to them from the game department. They then bring in foreigners to shot our elk ,YES OUR ELK. How many years have you out there been picked for island LEH elk ????. They the foreigners pay big bucks for this hunt and who pockets the money ,you got it ???. If you want to get an Island Roosevelt become a foreigner then you will fill your dream of a life time.

[boxhitch]

h, do the permit allotments fit into the formula from the new Allocation Policy ? If so, then your next goal should be AP adjustment, if it is unfair.

[boxhitch]

It's a social question, do we want quality hunting for decicated trophy hunters and probable continued decline in hunter participation, or quantity hunting for many with high success rates to keep interest high and a chance to increase participation, along with increased political clout, etc.Along with these type of openings, comes the fear that every hunter in the province will shoe up to kill elk.
If the MOE could see the clear path , and maybe coordinate openings in other regions, which also face over-population problems, the pressure would be spread out.
Maybe pressure on Victoria-level is needed.

[kutenay]

Very good point and one worth pursuing with the MoE.

[J_T]

Along with these type of openings, comes the fear that every hunter in the province will shoe up to kill elk.
If the MOE could see the clear path , and maybe coordinate openings in other regions, which also face over-population problems, the pressure would be spread out.
Maybe pressure on Victoria-level is needed.

If I understand your comment clearly, this is exactly what MOE are attempting to do. Where possible, standardize/harmonize seasons within a region and between regions. It is the hunters and the local hunter groups that are the barrier to getting this done. This is clearly evident at the meetings.

I would add that MOE also want to work towards 3 pt elk seasons, moving off of LEH and shifting away from trophy hunts, but a tiger doesn't change its stripes. Hunters are preventing these initiatives from happening. IF you are a BCWF member, scream and yell at your local groups.

[model88]

I have hunted Elk in the East Koot. for 18 years and think implamenting a GOS for 3pt or better Elk would destroy the quality of Elk hunting we have today.Bull numbers are up because every bull that comes into a call with more than 3pts is not pounded as they were in the past.Hunting Elk is about the thrill off working a Bull not just filling your tag.Nothing is more thrilling than hiking into a basin and having a number off good bulls responding to your call and then choosing the one you want to pursue.This was almost impossable when they used to have a 3pt season.Sure hunting would be great for a few years then it would be back to rag horns not quality Bulls.Leave things alone,Elk hunting has never been better than it is now.I put in my two weeks every year and never have a problem finding or harvesting a Bull.While doing so i get the thrill to bugle in and play with a number off lesser Bulls.The 6pt Bulls are there in good numbers if a person is willing to put in the time and effort to hunt them where they live.Going back to a GOS for 3pts is not the answere.

x2

Couldn't have said it better myself.

[Flinch]

It is too bad that we still see so much protectionism out there. Everyone wants a good hunt, and when game numbers start getting high people feel that changing anything is going to ruin a good thing. When numbers get high, mother nature is getting ready to ruin a "good thing". Ask the guys in the Peace about deer.

When we protect our own back yards with unnecessary restrictions what we are doing is shooting ourselves and our kids in the foot. The only protecting we should be doing is protecting wildlife and our (read: Resident Hunter) rights to hunt all the game of this province. Based on the increasing numbers of animals and wildlife conflicts in the Koots it would appear that less restrictions are in order. This is good for the game and good for hunter recruitment,



I would add that MOE also want to work towards 3 pt elk seasons, moving off of LEH and shifting away from trophy hunts, but a tiger doesn't change its stripes. Hunters are preventing these initiatives from happening. IF you are a BCWF member, scream and yell at your local groups.


The kootenay proposals were stopped by local resident hunters. If it were up to the Biologists there, we would be opening things up somewhat and I bet if it were up to the rest of the province we would be opening things up too.

Sucks to be a biologist when you are trying to satisfy a group of hunters that have such differing opinions. I bet they start to listen to the anti's who have a much more united voice than we do!

[KevinB]

Leave things alone,Elk hunting has never been better than it is now..

That's your idea of good Elk hunting. Not everyone else's, or of the majority of hunters in B.C. Not saying anything against what your idea of good Elk hunting is - I think it's great that there are some people who can, or who are willing to, take 2 weeks off every year and spend enough time out there to get to know their areas well enough, that they can harvest a 6 pt. bullevery year. But, most folks can't swing that, or aren't willing to, or whatever, and if there are enough elk to go around, everyone pays taxes the same as you and they should be entitled to use the resource as much as can be sustainably allowed. Hunting in B.C. (and for me, and most others) is, and always has been, fundamentally about meat hunting. You can still go hunt big bulls exclusively all you want, no-one is stopping you and I respect your wishes to do so. But your head is in the sand if you think that doing what you suggest won't result in the further reduction of hunter numbers, and eventually the further curtailing of resident hunter access to game, to the point where there will be NO resident hunter access to it. IMHO.


My idea of a "quality elk hunt" is one that ends with an elk of any legal size or sex, cut and wrapped and in my freezer. :)

Now you're talking. That would make a GREAT bumper sticker!

[Mr. Dean]

It is too bad that we still see so much protectionism out there. Everyone wants a good hunt, and when game numbers start getting high people feel that changing anything is going to ruin a good thing. When numbers get high, mother nature is getting ready to ruin a "good thing". Ask the guys in the Peace about deer.

When we protect our own back yards with unnecessary restrictions what we are doing is shooting ourselves and our kids in the foot. The only protecting we should be doing is protecting wildlife and our (read: Resident Hunter) rights to hunt all the game of this province. Based on the increasing numbers of animals and wildlife conflicts in the Koots it would appear that less restrictions are in order. This is good for the game and good for hunter recruitment,

The kootenay proposals were stopped by local resident hunters. If it were up to the Biologists there, we would be opening things up somewhat and I bet if it were up to the rest of the province we would be opening things up too.

Sucks to be a biologist when you are trying to satisfy a group of hunters that have such differing opinions. I bet they start to listen to the anti's who have a much more united voice than we do!

AMEN and HALLIEGHLUYA!!!

[6616]

I believe that trophy/quality hunters are a small precentage of BC resident hunters and that meat huinters make up the vast majority, as all the studies have indicated.

The reality is that trophy/quality hunters are very highly committed individuals, are amongst the hardest workers for wildlife and conservation, get involved, provide input when the opportunity arises, and, through their efforts and dedication to the resource, they often end up in positions within our clubs or the Federation where a large amount of influence can be exerted. They also are the most inclined to provide input to web based consultation sites.

Only a small minority of weekend hunters or meat hunters care enough or can be bothered to provide input even when given a very simple and easy opportunity like the MOE web site. Most of them won't even go to local club meetings. What percentage of your clubs membership regularily attends club meetings? I know it's probably less than 10 percent in the club I belong to. It's a problem of apathy!

It was reported at the Dec 1st KHWAC meeting that the web consultation site tallied 31 for and 59 against votes in regards for the 3 pt GOS. Futhermore, trophy opriented influential Rod and Gun clubers convinced more than half the Rod and Gun clubs in the region to reject the proposal.

This is the result of the public consultation process! This is all the wildlife managers have to go on!

There is only one group of people/hunters out there who can change this!

[Islandeer]

Great points 6'er.

Hunters that focus their time on so called trophy animals are definately more committed to their cause than the majority of meat,balony or sustanance hunters. Or are they... Life is all about change... To the rank and file 1 week a year hunter - get involved - be heard - I am starting now... I have the BCWF connections to raise some awareness. These forums show the passion we all have for our game, now we have to ramp it up and actually do something. A lot of us have very deep connections to regions other than their home region, one of the problems is not knowing when, and where etc meetings are and web based voting is being done.
This must be organised and made available to all hunters in this province. And yes i Know this info is around but it is not readily available. In the short term a forum here dedicated to Regional issues would be a positive step. Get all of the info out in one place where it can be used effectively. Dates,issues,proposals etc. There is an incredible amount of good energy wasted on this forum. We all know what I mean. I know I can do more.

So, Marc and crew let's getter done. There are some fantastic people on here that I am sure will step up and make that first step. I will help in any way I can.

[boxhitch]

Politics and Debates would be a fine forum, if anyone visited. Most postings now go down with dust on them.
Threads like this one should be in there too.

[David Heitsman]

325 and BCBooner:

I'm with you guys and your all entitled to my opinion!:wink:

[6616]

I will look into ensuring that in the future when MOE regulation web based consultation sites are activated, that links to these appear on the BCWF home page. http://www.bcwf.bc.ca

[Islandeer]

66'er,

That would be a positive step. I will contact victoria reps as well.

[model88]

Oh brother, maybe you guys should work on world peace as well.

[J_T]

While sharing the information and ensuring more avenues for non-region residents to participate are good first steps, the Terms of Reference for the Advisory group are set.

As the Bowhunter rep on the committee, I work to connect with bowhunting organizations, UBBC, BCAA and TBBC with information and collect their responses prior to establishing a position. This is expected of me at these meetings. Our position is that a hunter living anywhere in BC, may hunt in Reg 4 and therefore must be given an opportunity for input at the meeting.

Interesting though, the same is not so for BCWF reps. There are two sides to BCWF representation at the committee, East Kootenay and West Kootenay. The BCWF has 4 votes at the table. Provincial bowhunting groups are consulted by the committee on all aspects, when it comes to BCWF representation, there is a weighting based on which side of the Region they represent.

IE when a West Kootenay vote is occurring (moving off LEH elk in WK) the MOE look to the West Kootenay reps for their position. They "consult" with the East Kootenay reps, but it doesn't carry the same weight. The result of this, is the local, West Kootenay BCWF organizations, are dictating committee recommendations with respect to the Elk in WK.

The bowhunters of the province support a move off of LEH for Elk in West Kootenay, support a Jr/Sr season in West Kootenay and support a 3 pt season in East Kootenay.

I would like to add one more comment. As a hunter, I believe we are all hunters and as a committee member, I take into consideration that I must work to represent all hunters and the interests of hunting. I believe that when there are concerns in the development or evaluation of an opportunity, that weapons restrictions is a first step before LEH. And, if we are looking at moving off of LEH, but there is a concern of over harvest that weapons restriction is a step between LEH and GOS. The MOE view the creation of a bow opportunity as taking from one group and giving to another. They view bowhunters and rifle hunters as two distinct user groups. I don't.

6616. Just a note of clarity. I am not and never have been a trophy hunter. I seldom take pictures of my kills. I took three animals this year, all antlerless. Yet I have worked tirelessly for the benefit of wildlife, youth, conservation and our hunting heritage for over 25 years. I know you are the same. While I agree, the trophy hunter persona reflects a dedicated hunter, I know many hunters that are as dedicated, but place the reward somewhere other than a big rack.

Respectfully.

[Islandeer]

Oh brother, maybe you guys should work on world peace as well.
No time right know.:frown:

[tangozulu]

Last fall the local GO around Toad river shot and left a nice wolf in the area I was hunting. This by the way was outside their guide area but "near his ranch. The guide while a nice young lad but from Alberta. Was this wolf poached?
..................woops didnt mean to steal the thread.


/ d
Everett, I USED to think exactly as you do, but, HOW MANY guides come from Alberta because the "local" GO will not hire local guys who might bring their friends back later to his best areas? This is happening in northern BC, where the big GOs also buy supplies in Alberta to avoid BC taxes.

Is THIS contributing to jobs and the BC economy, I think not.

[6616]

BCWF representation, there is a weighting based on which side of the Region they represent.

IE when a West Kootenay vote is occurring (moving off LEH elk in WK) the MOE look to the West Kootenay reps for their position. They "consult" with the East Kootenay reps, but it doesn't carry the same weight. The result of this, is the local, West Kootenay BCWF organizations, are dictating committee recommendations with respect to the Elk in WK.
Respectfully.

I don't entirely agree with this statement Jim, while MOE obviously does more consultation with the local regions or sub-regions, and I'm sure this occurrs all over BC, I don't really see how this impacts committee recommendations let alone "dictate" them.

In the end local input obviously is more heavily weighed and doubtlessly effects the final decisions made by MOE,,, but I really don't see how it impacts committee recommendations.

[6616]

Oh brother, maybe you guys should work on world peace as well.


It's not as important 88..!

[GoatGuy]

6616 you're bang on re: vocal minority.


This is about it - generally hunters are out to cannibalize other hunters opportunity in hopes of enriching their own.

First thought is: What will this do to me?

Second thought is: How can I make my conception of hunting better?

You'll never hear questions about population dynamics, carrying capacity, conservation goals, population targets, sex ratios. You'll never hear a hunter ask a biologist/manager what he/she thinks about a proposed regulation.

Generally hunters don't actually ask questions of biologists. About the only question they will ask is "are you trying to kill off all the animals?" That'll generally be followed up with an "I told you so" or some sort of 'prediction' about the way things are going to go - - and it's always negative. Generally it's always worst case scenario. Furthermore there'll never be a solution put forth - if someone dares to put a solution together someone else will pick it apart and won't suggestion any improvement, nor will they pitch in and help out.

Feedback is tied up in the same language which generally pounds away on managers, and contributes little constructive feedback.

However, it isn't only managers that hunters pound on - they'll also pound away on eachother.


This is where change needs to happen. Hunters want to be heard and want to share their opinion and that's great BUT hunters should be doing that after finding out everything they possibly can about an issue. Hunters need to start looking out for eachother - understanding not everyone is looking for the same experience might not be 100% and that your experience might have to be shared with someone else - understanding with more hunters more things will favour hunters. Until that happens hunters will not gain the traction they want or need.



The regional model and hunter input for that matter should be for groups to share feedback about population observations. Hunting seasons should be based on conservation goals and population estimates. Hunting seasons should be setup to allow ALL hunters to participate and utilize the resource.

The rest of the jaw jockying can be left for the bar.

[J_T]

This is about it - generally hunters are out to cannibalize other hunters opportunity in hopes of enriching their own.

First thought is: What will this do to me?

Second thought is: How can I make my conception of hunting better?

You'll never hear questions about population dynamics, carrying capacity, conservation goals, population targets, sex ratios. You'll never hear a hunter ask a biologist/manager what he/she thinks about a proposed regulation.

Generally hunters don't actually ask questions of biologists. About the only question they will ask is "are you trying to kill off all the animals?" That'll generally be followed up with an "I told you so" or some sort of 'prediction' about the way things are going to go - - and it's always negative. Generally it's always worst case scenario. Furthermore there'll never be a solution put forth - if someone dares to put a solution together someone else will pick it apart and won't suggestion any improvement, nor will they pitch in and help out.


GG, I do agree with the first part of this statement. Hunters are constantly feeding on each other. Preying on the weak, may be consistent with being a predator. It's in our nature.

However, I would suggest your second statement about asking questions is not entirely accurate. In the camps I hunt in, most participants have an ongoing communication relationship with a Government biologist, most are well read, we have foresters, biologists, and land use people in camp and a good many of our discussions are about what is best for wildlife, or youth, or how do we work collaboratively to resolve a conflict between ranchers and wildlife. In one case, we were asked by Gov to act as an independent to resolve a land use issue between a rancher and BC Hydro. Most of us are members of the RMEF, BCWF, UBBC, DU, TBBC and are actively involved.

We generate a quarterly bowhunting publication (Off the Shelf) where we profile youth, involvement, our heritage, ethics and habitat enhancement. This is a volunteer effort and the money raised goes back into youth development and habitat work.

It is working on habitat projects, animal counts, thinning or burns that we learn about carrying capacity, it is in camp that we learn about population dynamics and buck/doe ratios.

The above, all contribute to a more wholistic thinking when we represent hunting at any and all times.

I agree with your last statement. The bowhunters of this province have been putting forth a youth hunting package proposal for so many years I've forgotten. Bit by bit, it is being picked up, but I'm still confused why it isn't being adopted more readily. Particularly when youth seem to be a focus.

My point is, I know my Father's camps for 60 years have been the same, I know that many camps I go into have the same caring conservation minded hunters in them.

[GoatGuy]

GG, I do agree with the first part of this statement. Hunters are constantly feeding on each other. Preying on the weak, may be consistent with being a predator. It's in our nature.

However, I would suggest your second statement about asking questions is not entirely accurate. In the camps I hunt in, most participants have an ongoing communication relationship with a Government biologist, most are well read, we have foresters, biologists, and land use people in camp and a good many of our discussions are about what is best for wildlife, or youth, or how do we work collaboratively to resolve a conflict between ranchers and wildlife. In one case, we were asked by Gov to act as an independent to resolve a land use issue between a rancher and BC Hydro. Most of us are members of the RMEF, BCWF, UBBC, DU, TBBC and are actively involved.

We generate a quarterly bowhunting publication (Off the Shelf) where we profile youth, involvement, our heritage, ethics and habitat enhancement. This is a volunteer effort and the money raised goes back into youth development and habitat work.

It is working on habitat projects, animal counts, thinning or burns that we learn about carrying capacity, it is in camp that we learn about population dynamics and buck/doe ratios.

The above, all contribute to a more wholistic thinking when we represent hunting at any and all times.

I agree with your last statement. The bowhunters of this province have been putting forth a youth hunting package proposal for so many years I've forgotten. Bit by bit, it is being picked up, but I'm still confused why it isn't being adopted more readily. Particularly when youth seem to be a focus.

My point is, I know my Father's camps for 60 years have been the same, I know that many camps I go into have the same caring conservation minded hunters in them.

It was a generalization and no one group/individiual's immune.

'Ongoing communications' and asking questions are two entirely different things. They're also quite often fraught with contempt - I've seen more than a few of the 'communications' myself.

We's and they's.

Some people do contribute more and you certainly can't knock 'em for that.:smile:

[Marlin375]

The Question is........ are the spring Turkeys going to have to keep thier heads out of range of my 22-250?


Not that I mind 12 gauge Turkey hunting.
Just figured playing Turkey-Sniper might be abit more challenging.

[6616]

MOE sent their final proposals to Victoria on Monday and the fall turkey season is in but only for shotguns and bows, no rifles.
The 3pt elk for the East K and the 6pt GOS for the West K were conspicuously "not" amongst the proposals submitted.

Spike/fork moose GOS proposal is in.

That is, if Victoria agrees with everything sent in.

I guess we'll have to do more work on the elk GOS proposals next year.

6616

[brotherjack]

MOE sent their final proposals to Victoria on Monday and the fall turkey season is in but only for shotguns and bows, no rifles.


And presumably rimfire's as well, same as the spring season?

[6616]

Here is the exact wording cut from the original document and pasted below.

Regulation number: R40809-01
Location: Region-wide
Management Units: all
Species: Turkey
Proposal: Change the fall turkey season to all weapons. Lengthen the season to run September 1 to October 30. Drop the requirement to shoot a bearded turkey only. Hence the fall season only would be open for ANY bird including young-of-the-year (often termed Jakes).
Decision: ACCEPT (with modification)
Rationale: Although the wild turkey is not native to the Kootenay Region, it has become a challenging trophy and an economically important game bird for hunters and local businesses, respectively. Hunting objectives for wild turkeys need to reflect these attributes. More than half of the web-based responses either opposed outright or supported a modification of the original proposal. Implementing a highly liberal hunting strategy to reduce populations (e.g., to mirror those in the Okanagan Region aimed at minimizing damage to vineyards) was not supported for the turkey populations residing in the Kootenays. Therefore, this regulation proposal was modified to allow for some increase in hunter harvest success, without adversely affecting their population levels. The modified proposal allows for a new 15 day hunt (October 1 to 15), any bird (i.e., either sex), shotgun or archery-only season, to follow the existing 30 day archery season (Sept 1 to 30). The fall season bag limit will continue to be one bird. The regional annual bag limit will continue to be two (2).

[wetcoasthunter]

Grrreat, so they'll relax the regulations on the birds, thats a surefire way to maintain and grow our sport.:roll:

Obviously since the 3pt season was brought up by the MoE the population can handle the added pressure, otherwise it wouldn't even be an option. How is the average hunter, who doesn't have the time or ability to search the web suppose to find this info and put in their 2 cents, word of mouth? Not very effective, and they are basing their recommendations on the responses? So a thank you goes out to all the GO's, paranoid locals and trophy hunters that think this will ruin their elk hunting. I think I hear the slow death of our sport.

Open this province up!! I have siad it before, half the hunters, and more regulations than ever, the math doesn't make sense.

[Fisher-Dude]

I hope those who opposed the elk season changes are happy when they look back at this 10 years from now and wonder why there is no hunting allowed in this province. The voters will be stupid enough to put the NDP back in at some point, and they will look at the 40,000 hunters left by that time versus the hundreds of thousands of greenies and shut it down to preserve BC's animals for wildlife viewing, or carbon footprint from hunters' vehicles, or some such idiocy. Farmers will be allowed to shoot what they want to protect their crops, with the meat going to "worthy causes".

In the meantime, enjoy your trophy hunts. Don't worry about swarms of hunters chasing your 6 point bulls - there won't be anyone else out there.

[Everett]

Grrreat, so they'll relax the regulations on the birds, thats a surefire way to maintain and grow our sport.:roll:

Obviously since the 3pt season was brought up by the MoE the population can handle the added pressure, otherwise it wouldn't even be an option. How is the average hunter, who doesn't have the time or ability to search the web suppose to find this info and put in their 2 cents, word of mouth? Not very effective, and they are basing their recommendations on the responses? So a thank you goes out to all the GO's, paranoid locals and trophy hunters that think this will ruin their elk hunting. I think I hear the slow death of our sport.

Open this province up!! I have siad it before, half the hunters, and more regulations than ever, the math doesn't make sense.

I coudn't have said it better

[model88]

I hope those who opposed the elk season changes are happy when they look back at this 10 years from now and wonder why there is no hunting allowed in this province. The voters will be stupid enough to put the NDP back in at some point, and they will look at the 40,000 hunters left by that time versus the hundreds of thousands of greenies and shut it down to preserve BC's animals for wildlife viewing, or carbon footprint from hunters' vehicles, or some such idiocy. Farmers will be allowed to shoot what they want to protect their crops, with the meat going to "worthy causes".

In the meantime, enjoy your trophy hunts. Don't worry about swarms of hunters chasing your 6 point bulls - there won't be anyone else out there.

Fisher-Dude, just when I thought you couldn't say anything really dumb, you go and prove me wrong.

I know everybody is entitled to an opinion, but come on buddy. You aren't even making sense with this one.

[brotherjack]

Proposal: Change the fall turkey season to all weapons.
...snip...
shotgun or archery-only season

That seems like two contradictory statements. I will hope that the powers that be will take all that to mean that the weapons allowed in the spring will be also allowed in the fall. Otherwise we're going to still have some confusion about the weapons restricted seasons with rimfire's allowed in the spring but not the fall.

(I also, personally, hope to see rimfire on there, because I'd much rather chase a turkey with magnum rimfire than a shotgun). :)

[rocksteady]

So a thank you goes out to all paranoid locals that think this will ruin their elk hunting.
Open this province up!! I have siad it before, half the hunters, and more regulations than ever, the math doesn't make sense.

I personally do not think a 3pt GOS would ruin elk hunting, however, we have been under the 6pt or better reg for a lot of years now and I can attest that the elk population has never been better....

There has been changes in the regs to open up opportunities...5 years ago, archery went to any bull, couple of years ago it went to any elk.

If you do not have the ability to hunt all season(like you say the locals can) in search of the infamous 6 pt, try the alternate season for archery...10 days any elk goes, in the X area....

If you are not into archery, apply for limited entry.

Even thought the population is healthy and large, I would rather see baby steps to increase the hunting opportunities, rather than a large change going from 6 down to 3 pt.

Last years Sr./Jr. any antlerless goes season in the X area had a huge influence on the elk, making it difficult for those of us who a) did not have a Sr/Jr. to hunt with b) did not get drawn for LEH c) Did not have success in the bow season.

[Fisher-Dude]

IIf you are not into archery, apply for limited entry.

Last years Sr./Jr. any antlerless goes season in the X area had a huge influence on the elk, making it difficult for those of us who a) did not have a Sr/Jr. to hunt with b) did not get drawn for LEH c) Did not have success in the bow season.

So, opportunity for "others" made it difficult for the "regulars"?

[rocksteady]

Yes, it did, for those of us who hunt elk in the low elevation area that the Sr./Jr. season was in, however I have heard very little negative feedback to this season, and am sure it will occur next year.

[Fisher-Dude]

Yes, it did, for those of us who hunt elk in the low elevation area that the Sr./Jr. season was in, however I have heard very little negative feedback to this season, and am sure it will occur next year.

I heard a lot of good stuff about it, the best being a tale of grandpa shooting a calf with his old open sights 30-30 with his 12 year old grandson by his side. That is great stuff.

RS, do you think it is incumbent on guys like you and me who have taken lots of elk over our hunting careers, and who can still access the tougher areas to hunt, to perhaps give a piece of the "X" areas to juniors and seniors to recruit and retain hunters?

[rocksteady]

That could be a distinct possibility in the coming year(s) if the Sr/Jr. season keeps having an impact on the herds...

A lot of the areas I hunt are tougher to hunt but still within the X Zone.

[325]

I wonder why ranchers/landowners are so quilk to complain about loses from to many elk, yet so reluctant to allow hunters on their land?!? What do they expect the government to do??

[6616]

I wonder why ranchers/landowners are so quilk to complain about loses from to many elk, yet so reluctant to allow hunters on their land?!? What do they expect the government to do??


That is a real problem because there's nothing anyone can do in that case. To me it means they're not having as much of a problem as they say.

[6616]

GoatGuy, BroJ, Disher-D, e-mail coming your way.

[Elkaholic]

I agree with fisher-dude that they will try to take our hunting heritage away from us, don't let anybody fool you otherwise.

[The Hermit]

Who says they have to shoot a 3 point? It is just a minimum - you can still hold out for a 6 pt bull!

Point is that most hunters are out there for the meat not the antlers... if the herds are sustainable with a short 3 point bull open season then thats the way it should be!

[BCrams]

Point is that most hunters are out there for the meat not the antlers... if the herds are sustainable with a short 3 point bull open season then thats the way it should be!

You missed the post which initiated my response. I am all for a 3 pt season and if the guided hunters or locals want a 6 pt, they can still choose to pursue them while the rest go for any bull 3 pt or better.

[Fisher-Dude]

Fisher-Dude, just when I thought you couldn't say anything really dumb, you go and prove me wrong.

I know everybody is entitled to an opinion, but come on buddy. You aren't even making sense with this one.

Then choose not to believe it. Sticking your head in the sand doesn't mean you will have any hunting rights tomorrow - standing up, joining forces to have our voices heard and supporting new opportunites for hunting, does.

It's your choice, but if you really enjoy that period each fall where you pack water and asswipe for a yankee hunter, you may want to see what you can do about ensuring people's rights to hunt in this province.

[GoatGuy]

Point is that most hunters are out there for the meat not the antlers... if the herds are sustainable with a short 3 point bull open season then thats the way it should be!

100% correct

The only type of season that caters to all hunter is a general open season where you can use whatever you like. Antler/horn restrictions should only be put in place when conservation concerns exist.

[BCrams]

100% correct

The only type of season that caters to all hunter is a general open season where you can use whatever you like. Antler/horn restrictions should only be put in place when conservation concerns exist.

Then, why isn't the director in Victoria, not telling the regionals to adjust seasons or create seasons where there is no conservation concern? Sometimes you need to move forward and do what is right.

[GoatGuy]

I personally do not think a 3pt GOS would ruin elk hunting, however, we have been under the 6pt or better reg for a lot of years now and I can attest that the elk population has never been better....

Only problem is nobody ever asked why the population crashed. Was it because of bull harvest? Or was it because of cow harvest? Bad winter? Problems with range?:lol:

Where should we be managing elk populations? What are the dangers of managing the elk population which 'has never been better'.

What does a 6pt season do to hunters?



There has been changes in the regs to open up opportunities...5 years ago, archery went to any bull, couple of years ago it went to any elk.

If you do not have the ability to hunt all season(like you say the locals can) in search of the infamous 6 pt, try the alternate season for archery...10 days any elk goes, in the X area....

If you are not into archery, apply for limited entry.



Archery is likely not a recruitment tool - most hunters don't have the time energy and persistence to pick up a bow not to mention the potential/perceived potential for success. For many, archery seasons are likely an extension for avid hunters - for others it's how they hunt. Problem is those aren't the people we've lost and are losing.

Applying for a limited entry isn't a recruitment tool either - you can't get people on board or keep them if they can't hunt! ;)

Tough stuff - decisions wildlife managers face on a regular basis.

[GoatGuy]

Then, why isn't the director in Victoria, not telling the regionals to adjust seasons or create seasons where there is no conservation concern? Sometimes you need to move forward and do what is right.

True - with the regional model it's tough to go against what the "hunters" want, whatever that is :roll:. Even tougher when restrictions are supported by hunters and g/os. Also get user groups out canibalizing each others opportunity, further fracturing hunters. Time is being tied up with various user groups as opposed to focusing on the core user group.

This is where politics and wildlife management collide - everybody wants time on the soapbox and to push whatever their agenda may be. "It's about ME!!!!!!!" At the end of the day hunters need to get onboard and start to see the future of hunting for what it is. It isn't harvesting trophy animals, making hunters hunt how "me" believes they should, making them pay more, road restrictions, antler restrictions or keeping them out of "my" backyard. The future is through maximizing opportunity to hunt and harvest - period.



Have to develop another arsenal to understand what hunters want outside of a room full of yellers or advisory groups who may/may not represent themselves as opposed to hunters.


Working on it!;-)

[BCrams]

True - with the regional model it's tough to go against what the "hunters" want, whatever that is :roll:. Even tougher when restrictions are supported by hunters and g/os. Also get user groups out canibalizing each others opportunity, further fracturing hunters. Time is being tied up with various user groups as opposed to focusing on the core user group.

This is where politics and wildlife management collide - everybody wants time on the soapbox and to push whatever their agenda may be. "It's about ME!!!!!!!" At the end of the day hunters need to get onboard and start to see the future of hunting for what it is. It isn't harvesting trophy animals, making hunters hunt how "me" believes they should, making them pay more, road restrictions, antler restrictions or keeping them out of "my" backyard. The future is through maximizing opportunity to hunt and harvest - period.



Have to develop another arsenal to understand what hunters want outside of a room full of yellers or advisory groups who may/may not represent themselves as opposed to hunters.


Working on it!;-)

I fully understand the politics of decision making and due process.

however

Time has come for regional managers to push through and implement the changes required to maximize opportunity and harvest, regardless of what the GO and various user groups say. They need to focus on the core group of hunters out there. Everytime the regionals 'buckle' under the shouts from various user groups or pander to the GO industry, hunters as a whole lose out because those core hunters are dropping away or just cannot be bothered.

The ministry biologists and regional managers need to make the decisions representing the core group of hunters and not in favour of those who represent the minority such as 'guide outfitters', 'trophy hunters', 'hunters who want point restrictions', 'hunters who want LEH hunts' etc. Make the changes and these people are not going to quit hunting. Consequently, making changes to favour them and we lose the hunters and would be hunters we need for the future.

A couple examples:

Rocky Mountain Elk - they are one of the most prolific game species in North America. Additionally, there is no conservation concern in British Columbia. Why on earth don't we have a 3 pt season in the Koots? Or align 3 pt seasons for rocky mtn elk across the province to alleviate any "crowding" as some locals are so worried about. Surely we can support a short 6, 8 or 10 day 3 pt bull season! and how ridiculous the West Kootenay LEH hunt is. :roll:

Mule deer - I'm a trophy hunter! But you know what, I believe if you get rid of the 4 pt restrictions on mule deer bucks, there still will be no shortage of trophy bucks to hunt!

[kutenay]

Then choose not to believe it. Sticking your head in the sand doesn't mean you will have any hunting rights tomorrow - standing up, joining forces to have our voices heard and supporting new opportunites for hunting, does.

It's your choice, but if you really enjoy that period each fall where you pack water and asswipe for a yankee hunter, you may want to see what you can do about ensuring people's rights to hunt in this province.

Good point, FD, anyone who shoots his mouth off without contributing to any rational discussion has no credibility in my eyes. We do NOT need foreign hunters in the Kootenays at all; it's time to close up the entire GO "industry"there and I think I will start writing articles for local papers advocating precisely that, it worked to get the Valhallas, the PWC and so forth.

[J_T]

The only type of season that caters to all hunter is a general open season where you can use whatever you like. Nice one. A bit subversive. Some "seasons" (defined as special weapons) cater to the need to address conservation concerns in unique ways. It doesn't limit participation. In fact, it may enhance it. But, I guess we will just have to disagree. I heard some of that rhetoric on the phone from the fed the other day. Unbelievable.

If you really care, and you really do want hunting to flourish, then open up all aspects of it.


Archery is likely not a recruitment tool - most hunters don't have the time energy and persistence to pick up a bow not to mention the potential/perceived potential for success. For many, archery seasons are likely an extension for avid hunters - for others it's how they hunt. Problem is those aren't the people we've lost and are losing.

Applying for a limited entry isn't a recruitment tool either - you can't get people on board or keep them if they can't hunt! :wink:

Tough stuff - decisions wildlife managers face on a regular basis. That first statement is a rather powerful statement. I guess we will live to disagree with that statement. The point is, how many more hunters might we have, or have held on to, or do we risk losing if we don't consider providing those seasons. The 3 pt elk in the EK for bowhunters would likely stimulate a lot of hunter activity.

I certainly agree with your second statement.

Maybe the recruitment aspect of using a bow isn't about someone picking it up, but instead providing someone an opportunity to do something they are comfortable with. Does Walmart limit who their clients are?

If Wildlife managers really want to support hunters, they won't draw a line to what they will consider. Bowhunters in this province continue to support youth, additional hunting opportunities (who cares who benefits as long as many might). Wildlife managers at present are fond of bowhunting but cater to the dwindling majority.


Working on it!:wink:Alone? Or are you going to share? I'm sure we could find common ground and build together, but on here is not the place. I look forward to the opportunity.

[GoatGuy]

I fully understand the politics of decision making and due process.

however

Time has come for regional managers to push through and implement the changes required to maximize opportunity and harvest, regardless of what the GO and various user groups say. They need to focus on the core group of hunters out there. Everytime the regionals 'buckle' under the shouts from various user groups or pander to the GO industry, hunters as a whole lose out because those core hunters are dropping away or just cannot be bothered.

The ministry biologists and regional managers need to make the decisions representing the core group of hunters and not in favour of those who represent the minority such as 'guide outfitters', 'trophy hunters', 'hunters who want point restrictions', 'hunters who want LEH hunts' etc. Make the changes and these people are not going to quit hunting. Consequently, making changes to favour them and we lose the hunters and would be hunters we need for the future.

A couple examples:

Rocky Mountain Elk - they are one of the most prolific game species in North America. Additionally, there is no conservation concern in British Columbia. Why on earth don't we have a 3 pt season in the Koots? Or align 3 pt seasons for rocky mtn elk across the province to alleviate any "crowding" as some locals are so worried about. Surely we can support a short 6, 8 or 10 day 3 pt bull season! and how ridiculous the West Kootenay LEH hunt is. :roll:

Mule deer - I'm a trophy hunter! But you know what, I believe if you get rid of the 4 pt restrictions on mule deer bucks, there still will be no shortage of trophy bucks to hunt!

You're right.

[GoatGuy]

Nice one. A bit subversive. Some "seasons" (defined as special weapons) cater to the need to address conservation concerns in unique ways. It doesn't limit participation. In fact, it may enhance it. But, I guess we will just have to disagree.

Address conservation concerns in unique ways? We've tried that, called LEH. Guaranteed to kill off hunters. Only thing I can think of that would kill more is what you're suggesting. Trade in LEH for bow only?

It won't limit participation for those who remain after the storm's gone through - good luck finding an MLA to support hunting when there's 10,000 hunters left.




If you really care, and you really do want hunting to flourish, then open up all aspects of it.

Really care?




Maybe the recruitment aspect of using a bow isn't about someone picking it up, but instead providing someone an opportunity to do something they are comfortable with. Does Walmart limit who their clients are?

Walmart is a low cost provider. They look to maximize market share - they're profitability comes in numbers.

Oppositely someone like Ferrari is a nitch player and targets the segment with the most money. Tackling the upper end usually means profitability comes in the form of high margins and expensive add-ons to existing customers.

Do you want more hunters or more seasons for the hunters who are left?



If Wildlife managers really want to support hunters, they won't draw a line to what they will consider. Bowhunters in this province continue to support youth, additional hunting opportunities (who cares who benefits as long as many might). Wildlife managers at present are fond of bowhunting but cater to the dwindling majority.

I care who benefits - we aren't trying to make the avid hunter more avid. The people who are on this board are not the important ones. We need to find the people who live on the fringe,who don't have experience or skill to be successful or the social support which makes hunting and hunters. We need to find the people who are thinking about trying hunting. Those are the people we need to worry about.

As hunters we need to consider whether we want opportunity for ourselves or for the person who's thinking about hunting. Throwing up more barriers isn't gonna get us where we want to be.

[J_T]

Address conservation concerns in unique ways? Late season, archery only deer hunts is a good example of how we can continue to provide hunting opportunity for anyone who chooses to do it, without the concern for over harvest due to the use of more efficient weapons.

Most hunters should favour a limited weapons season before LEH.

Recruitment: can you take your rifle to school and do a show and tell? Can you set up a target in the school yard and let a few kids throw a few projectiles at the target? With archery there are any number of soft approaches to getting kids hooked.

I'm always confused. I'm not saying, nor have I ever said, rifle hunting is bad and we shouldn't have it. But I always feel this defensive push back attitude from you and others. Listen, if we're trying to sell something we should be looking at all possibilities.

The province is a big place and in some areas, there is no need to employ unique opportunities, in many areas, one style of hunting won't negatively impact another, but there are areas where that does occur. We shouldn't be managing for the lowest common denominator in every case.

More seasons doesn't mean wide open GOS from New Years to Christmas, it means finding balance.

I do agree with your last statement. I would take it further. We need to also target people who don't know they might be interested. There is a huge population out there that think guns are bad, or hunting is bad. The school scenario above, provides a non hunting parent an opportunity for a first glimpse into something that leads to hunting. Perhaps without knowing it, they condone their child to participate, overtime, this and 3D shoots will provide a better glimpse into hunting. Can we predict how many might become hunters. No. Who cares. we work on the fact it might happen. We operate on the fact it is a quality experience for kids.

This is a region 4 thread. Bowhunters supported a 3 pt GOS elk in East Kootenay, Bowhunters supported moving the West Kootenay elk off of LEH and creating youth/sr and GOS hunts.

So who defeated these proposals at the table?

[hunter1947]

As soon as you mention guns to the parents most don't want nothing to do with guns ,new society ,bad thing .http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/images/icons/icon13.gif It's the parents that need the schooling on this issue ,not the kids.

[calvin L]

I wish we could have the core program in schools in kelowna . A friend of mine in armstrong had his girl take it . This I think will give an young person the chance to be opened up the the hunting world . It is not the answer but it is a start . Most kid's I have talked to are not against it . They would love to try it . My sisters kids love shooting and this year he wants to hunt . I gess I will start on bears as they are easier to find so he can get his blood boiling


calvin L

Almost a high jack sorry . I am bow hunter first and formost ! I love it. Do I need a bow only season No. do I use it Yes . I know for a fact that when I tell Mike that he can't shoot that deer because it doesn't have 4 point on one side it will pull the rug out from under him . Yes I know there are other time's it os open . But do we want them to only hunt 2-3 week out of the season (deer) or all season long ?The new hunters need time in the bush lots of it and a chance to take a animal .

[J_T]

Boy Calvin, that is a great idea. CORE in school could involve so many aspects, perhaps call the course Outdoor Education. Provide kids with lots of outdoor skills. Fishing, boating, animals, conservation, survival, etc.

I'd like to see a communications skills course offered too. It would contribute to making us all better listeners.

[GoatGuy]

Late season, archery only deer hunts is a good example of how we can continue to provide hunting opportunity for anyone who chooses to do it, without the concern for over harvest due to the use of more efficient weapons.

Most hunters should favour a limited weapons season before LEH.

Should and do are two totally different things. Most hunters won't - look at what it's done throughout North America. The people who are really into hunting have a rifle, muzzleloader, shotgun and a bow for the various seasons - they'll support it. They're the same people who are looking to grow big bucks/bulls and rams at the expense of other hunting opportunities. The rest of the folks (majority) simply quit.

This is an end game strategy which has been documented. It's a road other jurisdictions have travelled down and are now seeing recruitment fall off.

Even on this board I think you'll find little support for bow only MUs.



Recruitment: can you take your rifle to school and do a show and tell? Can you set up a target in the school yard and let a few kids throw a few projectiles at the target? With archery there are any number of soft approaches to getting kids hooked.

I'm always confused. I'm not saying, nor have I ever said, rifle hunting is bad and we shouldn't have it. But I always feel this defensive push back attitude from you and others. Listen, if we're trying to sell something we should be looking at all possibilities.

The province is a big place and in some areas, there is no need to employ unique opportunities, in many areas, one style of hunting won't negatively impact another, but there are areas where that does occur. We shouldn't be managing for the lowest common denominator in every case.

More seasons doesn't mean wide open GOS from New Years to Christmas, it means finding balance.

I do agree with your last statement. I would take it further. We need to also target people who don't know they might be interested. There is a huge population out there that think guns are bad, or hunting is bad. The school scenario above, provides a non hunting parent an opportunity for a first glimpse into something that leads to hunting. Perhaps without knowing it, they condone their child to participate, overtime, this and 3D shoots will provide a better glimpse into hunting. Can we predict how many might become hunters. No. Who cares. we work on the fact it might happen. We operate on the fact it is a quality experience for kids.

This is a region 4 thread. Bowhunters supported a 3 pt GOS elk in East Kootenay, Bowhunters supported moving the West Kootenay elk off of LEH and creating youth/sr and GOS hunts.

So who defeated these proposals at the table?

Too bad you feel that way.

Hunting is not 'bad' to a huge part of the population. It's actually quite the opposite. There are several studies which have found most people support or are indifferent to hunting and many would like to try it if only they had access to it. That's been studied and documented. Most of it's education and access.

Soft approaches have not been studied/documented, nor is there anybody out actively pursuing them (the most important part). You've gotta measure it to understand and manage it. There's much opportunity for understanding here that hasn't been pursued and isn't being pursued. It's unfortunate.


I've always believed in more inclusive hunting opportunities as opposed to exclusive when it comes to hunting - I suppose hunting styles don't collide when you don't let people hunt or segregate the population. That relates to the region 4 proposal and what you're suggesting - hunter's trying to keep other hunters out. I suppose everybody's got their thing.

I do appreciate the insight: it helps me understand.

[GoatGuy]

I am bow hunter first and formost ! I love it. Do I need a bow only season No. do I use it Yes . I know for a fact that when I tell Mike that he can't shoot that deer because it doesn't have 4 point on one side it will pull the rug out from under him . Yes I know there are other time's it os open . But do we want them to only hunt 2-3 week out of the season (deer) or all season long ?The new hunters need time in the bush lots of it and a chance to take a animal .


That's about how I felt when I had time to bowhunt. Now bow season lines up with junior season and taking kids out is more important and december's a write-off with work.

Probably start chucking arrows this spring as things should hopefully be slowing down + I've got a big outdoor range now. :smile:

[BCrams]

Boy Calvin, that is a great idea. CORE in school could involve so many aspects, perhaps call the course Outdoor Education. Provide kids with lots of outdoor skills. Fishing, boating, animals, conservation, survival, etc.

I'd like to see a communications skills course offered too. It would contribute to making us all better listeners.


They used to have the CORE program in Junior high. It was an outdoor education class in grade 8 where they offered the CORE course. The school districts pulled the program and consequently, a drop in participants occured. I took it and I am sure many of us on here recall taking the CORE program in junior high.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Recently my nephew was able to take his CORE program in school in the Burton/Nakusp area. Don't quote me on this but I believe it was taken during regular school hours.

The smaller towns are still in touch with reality.:-)

SSS

[6616]

Recently my nephew was able to take his CORE program in school in the Burton/Nakusp area. Don't quote me on this but I believe it was taken during regular school hours.

The smaller towns are still in touch with reality.:-)

SSS

From the Zeman report 2006 (but in my own words): The annual number of CORE graduates increased steadily since the programs inception in 1976 to 1983. The CORE program was available in schools in BC during this time. In 1984 the program was privatized and removed from schools. The number of CORE graduates dropped 84% in that single year. Under private administration, the cost of the program to students escalated significantly.

In recent years the program was again taken over by government and the BCWF is the current delivery agent. Graduate numbers have increased since that time but have never recovered to pre-1983 levels.

If we could get CORE back into the schools it would be a major factor in stimulating hunter recruitment.

[Gateholio]

Hunting is not 'bad' to a huge part of the population. It's actually quite the opposite. There are several studies which have found most people support or are indifferent to hunting and many would like to try it if only they had access to it. That's been studied and documented. Most of it's education and access.


.

I'd agree 100%

There is a tremndous amount of peopel that are interested in shooting and some interested in hunting around here, but many dont' knwo where to start, or get put off by PAL/CORE courses.

I try to help get people started, but I've only got so much time. Our club has been running a very popular "Beginners Trap" night the last 3 years, once a week, and the fellow that does most of it reports huge increases. Particulalry in the WOMEN and CHILDREN demographic.

Peopel are out there that want to shoot, want to hunt, it's making it easier for them to do it is the issue.