Validity of I.B.E.P. ?

[Bow Walker]

I've started this thread because we were hi-jacking the I.B.E.P. course notification thread at this address...

http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=17631



(http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/member.php?u=509)Onesock (http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/member.php?u=509) http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/images/statusicon/user_offline.gif vbmenu_register("postmenu_223446", true);
HuntingBC Champ
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 554


Re: Official IBEP Bowhunting Course in Victoria Feb 2 and 3rd.
As GG said in an earlier post,Core teaches proper gun handling and where you are supposed to shoot deer. Where does the novice bowhunter learn these things? The vast majority on this site would say "Who cares". The legitamate bowhunters care, thats who. As far as loosing the opportunistc bowhunters, that is a good thing. I don't think bowhunting needs or wants the kind of press the one week a year bowhunter gives us. Bow hunting is NOT rifle hunting and some instruction in bowhunting should be mandatory. I don't think even rifle hunters want wounded deer,shot by opportunistic bowhunters, running around in the bush. Mandatory IBEP is a huge step in preventing this.
(http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/member.php?u=509)

Onesock - I brought you over to this thread because you were the last one to post about this subject. Hopefully you will follow this thread as well.

The sentence in your statement that is bolded is one that I dispute and dis-believe. I doubt that the vast majority are as uncaring about hunter educations as you seem to think.:confused:

Other than that, I agree with everything else that you said.:wink:

[Blk Arrow]

What I believe we have here are several issues which need to be addressed. The IBEP course is merely bait in what is a true kettle of fish. Probably the single most important issue for hunter survival, and that includes all hunters, is public perception.

1. A mandatory bow hunting course would probably provide a small headline in the bowels of a paper. Put that headline with the recurring image of the doe in Ontario with a crossbow bolt in her neck and now you have front page news!!

2. Archery clubs need to present an inviting place for families to come to try archery. I got into archery and bow hunting because my then eight year old daughter liked archery at guide camp. I was fortunate to know someone in a club that got her and then my son and I started. The kids are the future of hunting and archery does not provide the same stigma of guns. Let’s use that to our advantage!

3.Does anyone really want more red tape?

4.Can we legislate proficiency with a weapon? Any weapon!! Every year people go hunting without proper knowledge of their weapons and their own personal limitations with those weapons. This results in wounded game and ammunition for the anti-hunting groups. Practice, Practice, Practice. It’s cheap and green. We recycle our ammunition over and over.




I apologize for the rambling. I believe the IBEP to be a valuable course that should be promoted within the archery community, but not mandated. There is no magic bullet, ah arrow.

[Will]

What I believe we have here are several issues which need to be addressed. The IBEP course is merely bait in what is a true kettle of fish. Probably the single most important issue for hunter survival, and that includes all hunters, is public perception.

1. A mandatory bow hunting course would probably provide a small headline in the bowels of a paper. Put that headline with the recurring image of the doe in Ontario with a crossbow bolt in her neck and now you have front page news!!

2. Archery clubs need to present an inviting place for families to come to try archery. I got into archery and bow hunting because my then eight year old daughter liked archery at guide camp. I was fortunate to know someone in a club that got her and then my son and I started. The kids are the future of hunting and archery does not provide the same stigma of guns. Let’s use that to our advantage!

3.Does anyone really want more red tape?

4.Can we legislate proficiency with a weapon? Any weapon!! Every year people go hunting without proper knowledge of their weapons and their own personal limitations with those weapons. This results in wounded game and ammunition for the anti-hunting groups. Practice, Practice, Practice. It’s cheap and green. We recycle our ammunition over and over.




I apologize for the rambling. I believe the IBEP to be a valuable course that should be promoted within the archery community, but not mandated. There is no magic bullet, ah arrow.

Words of wisdom.........

[Hank Hunter]

THE VAST MAJORITY ON THIS SITE WOULD SAY WHO CARES

We really need to unite as hunters regardless of hunting methods

[Bow Walker]

Can anyone truly say that they believe the "vast majority on this site would say "who cares?""

I give THE VAST MAJORITY of HBC'ers much more credit than that!

Although not everyone takes the time to express their point of view, I would say - with certainty - that the "vast majority" are very concerned about the future of the sport of Hunting. In whatever form that takes, be it game or fowl.

Public perception of hunting and hunters is in dire need of a good publications expert. We need to have the general public aware of the benefits of regular open seasons on game animals and also on waterfowl (as huntwriter has stated).

Take the extra season(s) for the Snow Goose as an example. They devastated vast areas of tundra in their breeding grounds. They still are devastating the areas. They strip the land of any - and every - kind of edible vegetation, leaving barren ground behind them. The Federal gov't, in their wisdom, deemed it necessary to reduce the population significantly to both save the ecology and to preserve the integrity of the species.

There was lots of "advertising" and "public awareness" about the efforts of our "ecologically minded" government officials. They were perceived as doing the right thing for the species.

Hunting in general needs that kind of good press. But where to get it from?

[bsa30-06]

What I believe we have here are several issues which need to be addressed. The IBEP course is merely bait in what is a true kettle of fish. Probably the single most important issue for hunter survival, and that includes all hunters, is public perception.

1. A mandatory bow hunting course would probably provide a small headline in the bowels of a paper. Put that headline with the recurring image of the doe in Ontario with a crossbow bolt in her neck and now you have front page news!!

2. Archery clubs need to present an inviting place for families to come to try archery. I got into archery and bow hunting because my then eight year old daughter liked archery at guide camp. I was fortunate to know someone in a club that got her and then my son and I started. The kids are the future of hunting and archery does not provide the same stigma of guns. Let’s use that to our advantage!

3.Does anyone really want more red tape?

4.Can we legislate proficiency with a weapon? Any weapon!! Every year people go hunting without proper knowledge of their weapons and their own personal limitations with those weapons. This results in wounded game and ammunition for the anti-hunting groups. Practice, Practice, Practice. It’s cheap and green. We recycle our ammunition over and over.




I apologize for the rambling. I believe the IBEP to be a valuable course that should be promoted within the archery community, but not mandated. There is no magic bullet, ah arrow.

I agree well said.I dont see how making acourse like this mandatory is going to make anybody a better shot.I also dont see it stopping the so called guys that are just taking advantage of the extra season from still doing so.I'm sure some will take the course and put the bows back in the closet till hunting season, and pull them back out.

[Bow Walker]

I agree that making the course mandatory won't make archers a better shot - only practice can do that - and it won't help get rid of the opportunistic hunters. It's not designed to do either of those things.

Making the I.B.E.P. course mandatory to get a bow hunting license will only increase the validity and the perception (in the eyes of the "public") of our comittment to our sport. It'll go a long way to showing that we don't belong in the category of the "Deliverance" type of backwoods rednecks.

Bowhunters are, by and large, a responsible group of normal people. It happens that we just like to get out into the outdoors and away from the Latte and Cappuccino crowds. While we are out there we like to pit our skills against the wild animals that we hunt.

[Will]

Making the I.B.E.P. course mandatory to get a bow hunting license will only increase the validity and the perception (in the eyes of the "public") of our comittment to our sport. It'll go a long way to showing that we don't belong in the category of the "Deliverance" type of backwoods rednecks.
If the Current License and CORE requiremenst don't do "squat" to increase the validity and perception in the eyes of the public now.........exactly what difference will yet another Course/ license do ?

[bsa30-06]

Bow Walker I don't agree sorry.Using that logic the CORE program should have changed the publics perception on hunters in general,and that obviously has not happened, as every article printed in the papers is all about bad mouthing hunters and hunting.Don't get me wrong i think the course could be a very usefull tool for bowhunters, but i dont think making it mandatory is going to make the public perception of hunters any better,and arent there enough mandatory loop holes to jump thru already.Who and how would regulate and keep track of people bowhunting? would you have to buy a special license to prove you took the course?How much is it going to cost to set up and administer such a program?I just dont see this as being a feasible solution to changing the public perception of hunters.Just my opinion.

[bsa30-06]

If the Current License and CORE requiremenst don't do "squat" to increase the validity and perception in the eyes of the public now.........exactly what difference will yet another Course/ license do ?

Will i think you and i thinking the same way here.

[J_T]

IBEP is not about media or public perception. Most that take their CORE are youth, and it is often our first exposure to many hunting related topics. (granted nothing beats being mentored by Dad)

IBEP is about enhancing our skills as hunters.

If all hunters, who choose at some point to hunt with a bow, had an IBEP course behind them, they would likely make better choices in the field and enjoy a more rewarding encounter.

If IBEP were mandatory to using a bow, there would be less archery related enforcement issues, which would in turn reduce negative exposure we currently face.

If all bowhunters and prospective bowhunters took it upon themselves to secure an IBEP course, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

It isn't about whether it's mandatory or not, it's about enhancing skills that lead to a better experience. Now why would an outdoor sportsman not be interested in a simple 2 day course for a nominal fee?

FYI many jurisdictions require IBEP to bowhunt.

It isn't about creating more regulation that restricts hunter involvement.

[Will]

IBEP is about enhancing our skills as hunters.

If all hunters, who choose at some point to hunt with a bow, had an IBEP course behind them, they would likely make better choices in the field and enjoy a more rewarding encounter.

If IBEP were mandatory to using a bow, there would be less archery related enforcement issues, which would in turn reduce negative exposure we currently face.

If all bowhunters and prospective bowhunters took it upon themselves to secure an IBEP course, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

It isn't about whether it's mandatory or not, it's about enhancing skills that lead to a better experience. Now why would an outdoor sportsman not be interested in a simple 2 day course for a nominal fee?

FYI many jurisdictions require IBEP to bowhunt.

It isn't about creating more regulation that restricts hunter involvement.
I don't think anyone really sees it as another restriction on hunters...although I doubt yet another fee and course would help to encourage MORE beginner Hunters...many are already turned off by the courses we already have in place.

There is NO question many would benefit from taking such a course...yes it is about enhancing our skills and should be left to those that choose to do so.

Many Old timers faught the core as well...many took avenues to "challenge" the exam......How many Established long time Bowhunters do you think will line up to take this course ? I'd wager not as many as some think.

What Hunting in general needs is MORE exposure to the Public so it can come out of the shadows and once again become an excepted practise, just as it once was.

Promoting this course among BowHunters is without question a Novel idea and should be done.

However making it mandatory will likely repel more hunters then it attracts ! IMO.

[bsa30-06]

[quote=J_T;223685]IBEP is not about media or public perception.


If IBEP were mandatory to using a bow, there would be less archery related enforcement issues, which would in turn reduce negative exposure we currently face.

sounds like public perception.

[Onesock]

Bow Walker- Even with these few response on here, how many people care where people learn to bowhunt? Obviously not many!!!

[bsa30-06]

[quote=J_T;223685]
If all bowhunters and prospective bowhunters took it upon themselves to secure an IBEP course, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Whats wrong with having this discussion, i think its been a good discussion on the IBEP course and what people think about it being mandatory.My opinion is that making it mandatory and forcing people to take it or give up bowhunting is in no way going to help keep or attract new hunters.It is also my opinion that the course would be valuable tool to bowhunters, but not if it is crammed down there throats.

[bsa30-06]

It isn't about creating more regulation that restricts hunter involvement.

this is exactly what is going to happen if it is made mandatory.It will have to regulated , administered , bowhunting licences sold, this is all going to cost more money .

[huntwriter]

Hunter education and public perception of hunting are two subjects that I have spent many years researching. In the later case I am very active in promoting hunting to the average person on the road.

All the research about public perception and talking with the average person about hunting I never had experienced that the publics perception of our hunting heritage hinges on education. Therefore we can safely assume that more hunter education will not make one iota of difference in how the public perceives hunting and hunters.

By far the biggest influence on public perception is how the animal rights and anti hunters portray us in the public. Unlike hunters, animal rights leave no opportunity pass by to get their agenda to the media and they do so with great success because they understand the power of the media and how to manipulate them.
(I another thread Bow Walker was wondering if I made a typo by writing “manipulating”. No I did not, in order to get the attention of the media you have to manipulate them or call it coaxing if you will. Webster: “Manipulate” to manage or utilize skillfully.)

Irrefutable facts about hunters and hunting speak louder than the emotional charged arguments and fabricated statistics of the animal rights groups.

Surveys have shown that over 70% of the people have a favorable opinion of hunting. While 28% have no opinion one way or another. Only a very small but very vocal percentage has a negative opinion of hunting.

Hunters by far (millions) outnumber the animal rights.

Fact that we need to push and make a positive impression in public:

North America’s hunters and hunting economy generate 76 billion dollars and an additional 25 billion in taxes license fees. The hunting economy supports 1.6 million jobs. The lion share of these monies directly benefit wildlife and habitat conservation that can be enjoyed by everybody, including the animal rights. In addition, more than 80% of all hunters are active members of one or several wildlife and habitat conservation organizations, spending more money, time and man-hours in an effort to preserve natural habitat and wildlife resources.
On the other hand, animal rights organizations spend less than 0.2% of their millions on any kind of animal welfare and wildlife conservation programs.

Hunting and the shooting sport is one of the safest recreational activates to take part in. With 2% of fatal and non-fatal shooting related accidents per 1000 participants hunting and shooting is safer than tennis and – get this – ballroom dancing. It’s hard to believe because each time a hunter experiences an accident that involves a firearm the antis make sure the story is plastered internationally all over the news – Like I said elsewhere, we should learn from the antis how to use the media. On the other hand if a ballroom dancer falls and cracks his or her skull wide open on the slippery hardwood floor it barely will make the local newspaper headlines.

Hunters played a major role in the resounding wildlife restoration efforts of the whitetail deer, elk, grizzly bear and the American wild turkey to mention only few species.

It is these facts that, at least in my many years experience of promoting the hunting heritage, have made the biggest impact on the public. Never, in my experience, could I make the same impression by mentioning that hunters are a strictly controlled by law and in addition adhere or an ethical code of conducts endorsed by mandatory hunter education.

In all of these I am all for hunter education and promote it at every opportunity, but I am against mandatory hunter education.

American statistics (I could not find any reliable Canadian statistics, but we can safely assume it is more or less the same here) show very clearly that mandatory hunter education is one of the biggest hindrances in recruiting more hunters, especially in states where a mandatory hunter education plus a mandatory bowhunter education is required. The problem is not that hunters do not want to be eructated. The problem is the cost that is involved. This is understandable, if a person has to pay an average of $ 150 for a hunter education course and then another $ 100 or more for a bowhunter course before they even can go hunting or purchase hunting equipment then many will reconsider becoming a hunter.

The same statistics also show that in American states where hunter education is not mandatory and therefore cheaper new hunters will attend in great numbers the courses offered. The same holds true for states that offer hunter education programs in schools for free.

Do I see value in hunter education? Absolutely, otherwise I would not have been a hunter education instructor for many years in America and now in the process of becoming one here in BC. I see the value of hunter education because it gives me another tool to promote hunting and get more hunters into our ranks. Hunter education has value because it gives the student an insight into our heritage and makes him aware of what is required of hunters.

What hunter education cannot do is teach hunter ethics, it only can highlight them. You cannot teach a youth at the age of ten ethics in a 40+ hour course. Hunter education has had no influence on making hunting safer. Hunting always has been one of the safest activities. The reason that accident numbers have gone down is not because of hunter education but because hunter numbers have sharply declined over the last 20 years.

Once a hunter is out in the field it is up to him alone how he behaves and how he conducts himself. Hunter education cannot eliminate accident or undesirable behavior because education of any kind cannot eliminate the human factor.

If it could then the person that almost killed me many years ago by shooting an arrow at me from 25 yards would not have shot an arrow at me and to boost sit in MY treestand. That person should have known better than any other because he was a hunter education instructor of a reputable organization.

There was another case of a well known outdoor writer and bowhunter education instructor that was charged with poaching but before he could be arrested he fled the country to Africa where he operates an outfitting business and hasn’t returned since.

Finally, as hunters we need to get politically organized. Here we can take a slice from our friends to the south. In America hunters are well represented in the government by such reputable organizations as the Congressional Sportmen’s Foundation and the U.S. Sportsmen’s Alliance, two organizations that fight aggressively for hunters rights in the halls of the White House and the U.S. Congress and are very successful at it too.

[J_T]

What hunter education cannot do is teach hunter ethics, it only can highlight them. You cannot teach a youth at the age of ten ethics in a 40+ hour course. Hunter education has had no influence on making hunting safer. Hunting always has been one of the safest activities. The reason that accident numbers have gone down is not because of hunter education but because hunter numbers have sharply declined over the last 20 years.

Once a hunter is out in the field it is up to him alone how he behaves and how he conducts himself. Hunter education cannot eliminate accident or undesirable behavior because education of any kind cannot eliminate the human factor.


Hunter education does exactly that. Improving One's skills through education is the key to adjusting ethics if ethics equals good decisions made while afield. IBEP will improve the bowhunter's decision making process. Thus, his ethics.

So you can teach ethics, by improving skills. You can reduce the occurance of poor decisions. To think otherwise likely undermines faith in society as a whole. Nonsense.

For those who have not taken an IBEP course. Just go take it, and then pass judgement on what should and what should not be.

[GoatGuy]

Hunter education does exactly that. Improving One's skills through education is the key to adjusting ethics if ethics equals good decisions made while afield. IBEP will improve the bowhunter's decision making process. Thus, his ethics.

So you can teach ethics, by improving skills. You can reduce the occurance of poor decisions. To think otherwise likely undermines faith in society as a whole. Nonsense.

For those who have not taken an IBEP course. Just go take it, and then pass judgement on what should and what should not be.

Hunting's a peer taught activity. Ethics will be taught by the kids dad not a course. Same applies to all professions and in every day life. Ethics are something that you carry around with you from day to day - the formed by your social support group, not a class on 'ethics'.

You can teach a minimum level of proficiency but you want if dad takes bad shots so too will the kid.

That's something hunting will always struggle with.

The real key is to increase the breadth of the social network and support group. That's how you get results.

Keep at 'er

[bsa30-06]

You can not thru any amount of hunter education, change an individuals ethics.Some things that one hunter finds ethical another may not.Ethics are the values of an individual,and everybody will have a slightly different set of values/ethics.If an individual has poor ethics and takes marginal shots i doubt that he is going to change his ways after taking the IBEP course.Once again i will say that i dont think the IBEP course is a bad thing , i just think that hunting is regulated enough and the addition of another mandatory course will only create more red tape to jump thru.

[J_T]

The end result of an unrecovered animal (and we read about it on here all the time) becomes a question of someone's ethics.

If we reduce the risk, we reduce the accusations.


If an individual has poor ethics and takes marginal shots i doubt that he is going to change his ways after taking the IBEP course.

This is exactly the target of the IBEP. It is not about whether you can shoot or not, it's about when to take a shot. High percentage shots and recovering an animal. And I know for a fact people do change after taking the course. They change because they are more informed. They change in what they use for equipment (broadhead type, weight and type of arrow) and each step, makes the hunter more proficient.

Each step toward proficiency, reduces negative outcomes. Reduces accusations of poor ethics.

Our morals, our personal ethics are likely ingrained at birth and nutured through mentoring, I agree, but we all pass judgement on people based on our assessment of ethics.

If we want to increase our social support network, we must act responsibly. Voluntarily take your IBEP. Every one of you. Don't sit back and say, there is nothing in it for me, there is nothing I can learn from it. That's an indication that you don't care. And isn't that what got this thread started?

To take it voluntarily is your choice. It's the responsible thing to do. If you don't take it, perhaps you are not responsible enough to be left with the decision in your hands.

If this is a peer activity, then I'm challenging anyone that picks up a bow, to ensure they have taken their IBEP.

[bsa30-06]

[quote=J_T;223741]
To take it voluntarily is your choice. It's the responsible thing to do. If you don't take it, perhaps you are not responsible enough to be left with the decision in your hands.

your right it is every individuals choice to take the course and thats the way it should be.Remarks like your last sentence are not going to encourage anybody to take the course.

J_T dont take my remarks personally, as i have stated i'm sure the course has lots to offer and is very beneficial,I'am just opposed to making it mandatory.As soon as it is made mandatory there is cost involved for the course,for an organization to administer and regulate it, for a bowhunters license, the cost is no longer minimal, and hunters really dont need anymore fee's thrown at them.

[sealevel]

Some of your last statement was a little harsh JT . So who teachs the course ?? Is some instuctor teaching you his opionon on whats an etheical shot or not. are we going to learn what he likes for a broadheads . how much of this course is opionons. I might take it to if its offerd by someone i think i can learn something from.

[Will]

That's an indication that you don't care. And isn't that what got this thread started?

To take it voluntarily is your choice. It's the responsible thing to do. If you don't take it, perhaps you are not responsible enough to be left with the decision in your hands.

Well with comments like yours everyone will be busting down the door to take the Course I'm sure.

[greybark]

8-) This would all be settled with an inclusion of a condensed IBEP segment in the current Core program . The expanded IBEP would then be available to those who would want it .
Cheers to all and a Happy New Year !!!

[Will]

8-) This would all be settled with an inclusion of a condensed IBEP segment in the current Core program . The expanded IBEP would then be availible to those who would want it .

Best Solution, Period.

[Bow Walker]

I firmly believe that the I.B.E.P. course has many different advantages on many different levels.
Will and bsa30-06....Ethics, for example - if we can give a young/impressionable hunter a sound basis from which to develop ethics - will not that be a positive from the course, even though it might be mandatory? I know that ethics are individual, but we all have to develop them from somewhere. I also know that you both agree with the promotion of the course.

Onesock...I don't really care where people earn to bow hunt. All I feel strongly about is how they learn to bow hunt.

Peer taught ethics from Dad or a buddy do not always stick on the student. I remember seeing my own dad take a less than favourable shot at a deer and I distinctly remember thinking that I wouldn't have done that. I was 12 at the time.

As huntwriter says - the course is mandatory elsewhere. How much linger til it's mandatory here in BC?

What hunting in general could use (and badly) is a very good PR agent. The Antis have somehow gotten a huge amount of exposure, which has equalled support, for their stand on the issue. We need to do the same.

P.E.T.A started out as an association for protection of pets, basically. Or am I wrong? They have somehow morphed into being against any and all forms of hunting and harvesting of game animals. Wha' happened? Where were the hunting associations, clubs, organizations, fish & game clubs, etc. when all this was happening.

We've been asleep and apathetic. That's where.

[JohnS]

Best Solution, Period.


8-) This would all be settled with an inclusion of a condensed IBEP segment in the current Core program . The expanded IBEP would then be available to those who would want it .
Cheers to all and a Happy New Year !!!


I agree 100% :cool: Happy New Year to you also greybark Cheers!!!

[bsa30-06]

8-) This would all be settled with an inclusion of a condensed IBEP segment in the current Core program . The expanded IBEP would then be available to those who would want it .
Cheers to all and a Happy New Year !!!

greybark i agree 100% and think that is what should happen.You know i didn't enter into archery and bowhunting to be a once a year bow shooter.I took lessons , tried all types of bows before making any of my decisions, asked my fair share of dumb questions , etc.I'am not opposed to the IBEP course, just the fact that some seem to think that if the course was mandatory it would be the end all solution to hunters with poor ethics, and the publics perception of hunters.

[Gateholio]

I cannot imagine how anyone will be highly motivated to take this course after reading some of the comments here!:eek:

[Will]

Will and bsa30-06....Ethics, for example - if we can give a young/impressionable hunter a sound basis from which to develop ethics - will not that be a positive from the course, even though it might be mandatory? I know that ethics are individual, but we all have to develop them from somewhere. I also know that you both agree with the promotion of the course.
Without a doubt building upon a Beginning Hunter's ethics is a Sound investment in Our Future....I just don't see how another course can accomplish this ? The core already instills the Basic Hunting do and don'ts.
What Folks do with that is up to them...most Folks that would take this course would be pretty Hard core Hunters and obviously display a want to be "ethical/knowledgeable" or they wouldn't sign up for it in the first place.

Greybark's suggestion about including a Portion in the CORE is a Great beginning. Leaves the Full course open for those who want to go that route but offers at least some basic Archery knowledge. This would also be beneficial to non bowhunters as many are pretty ignorant to Bowhunting in general...myself included at one time.

I'm actually surprised there really is nothing in the CORE that touches on some Bowhunting basics........:?

[Onesock]

Bow Walker- then my statement is true. Most people don't really care where bowhunting is taught. How many hunters on this site would have taken the Core course had it not been mandatory? I would like to know the real reason the majority of guys don't want the IBEP mandatory. It can't be the price of 2 dozen beer, can it? Some guys wouldn't take it because of the fear of failure? Everyone had to take a drivers test,a safe boating course, core course to learn about firearms, why not a course to learn about bowhunting?

[bsa30-06]

Bow Walker, i really like greybarks comments and i'am not opposed to his idea at all, i actually support his idea.The CORE program is already mandatory lets see them redesign, and incorporate the IBEP course into it.I'am opposed with the idea of making the IBEP course mandatory, we already have one mandatory course lets just make it cover all subjects, instead of creating another stumbling block for new hunters to jump thru.As far as ethics goes i just dont think you can teach people personal values, you can give them the foundation to build on but you cant force them to be an ethical hunter.They will do what they want once on there own in the bush.

[bsa30-06]

Bow Walker- then my statement is true. Most people don't really care where bowhunting is taught. How many hunters on this site would have taken the Core course had it not been mandatory? I would like to know the real reason the majority of guys don't want the IBEP mandatory. It can't be the price of 2 dozen beer, can it? Some guys wouldn't take it because of the fear of failure? Everyone had to take a drivers test,a safe boating course, core course to learn about firearms, why not a course to learn about bowhunting?

Onesock.....once again its comments like this that will have have them busting down the door to take the course.

[bsa30-06]

I cannot imagine how anyone will be highly motivated to take this course after reading some of the comments here!:eek:

Gatehouse, i hope none of my comments would prevent anybody from taking the course, as i have stated i think the course would be a valuable tool.I just dont think making it mandatory when we already have the core program which we could incorporate this into is the right way to market it.

[JohnS]

Some guys wouldn't take it because of the fear of failure? Everyone had to take a drivers test,a safe boating course, core course to learn about firearms, why not a course to learn about bowhunting?


Well you might as well add Reloading in there to! for mandatory course's for Explosives :roll:

[Bow Walker]

Without a doubt building upon a Beginning Hunter's ethics is a Sound investment in Our Future....I just don't see how another course can accomplish this ? The core already instills the Basic Hunting do and don'ts.
What Folks do with that is up to them...most Folks that would take this course would be pretty Hard core Hunters and obviously display a want to be "ethical/knowledgeable" or they wouldn't sign up for it in the first place.


Will...it has been stated time and again that the CORE content of bow hunting information is sketchy at best. The IBEP is by and for bow hunters. In depth. I agree that "most" hunters are ethical - by the broad brush definition. The International Bowhunters Educational Program gives new (and young) bow hunters a solid foundation that they can build their own ethics on.

For those new to the sport of hunting with a bow, it teaches where, when, how, and why the shot should be taken to quickly kill and harvest an animal. It also demonstrates why not to shoot (basic ethics) an animal, even if you really want that animal.



Bow Walker- then my statement is true. Most people don't really care where bowhunting is taught. How many hunters on this site would have taken the Core course had it not been mandatory? I would like to know the real reason the majority of guys don't want the IBEP mandatory. It can't be the price of 2 dozen beer, can it? Some guys wouldn't take it because of the fear of failure? Everyone had to take a drivers test,a safe boating course, core course to learn about firearms, why not a course to learn about bowhunting?

Onesock...Yes I can agree that most don't care where people learn to hunt. Actually people couldn't care less - until it's their own offspring, or someone else close to them.

Ahha...you are in favor of the IBEP then? I apologize if I missed that - I'm of the mind that like it or not, the IBEP will eventually become mandatory just like the CORE and that it will be "grand papa-ed".

It'd go a long way for education if the total IBEP course were to be combined in with the CORE and successful completion was necessary before being allowed to buy a hunting license. Trouble is - not all CORE people want to bow hunt. But if it were a total course, it would teach a lot about shot placement and/or ethics.

bsa30-06...we won't have a heckova lot of choice soon - sooner than we'd like - the IBEP will become mandatory. It's too much of a stretch to suppose that the Feds will see the sense of combining the two courses. If - by some miracle - it does happen, I pray that the full and complete IBEP is integrated into the CORE.

[Gateholio]

Gatehouse, i hope none of my comments would prevent anybody from taking the course, as i have stated i think the course would be a valuable tool.I just dont think making it mandatory when we already have the core program which we could incorporate this into is the right way to market it.

Not you..Your comments make sense;)

[Will]

Here's a valid question........

"Is there some current widespread epidemic of Hunting problems associated with Bowhunters I have not heard about that would necessitate a mandatory training program ?"

I'm just curious as to the motivations behind a mandatory course ?

[J_T]

I cannot imagine how anyone will be highly motivated to take this course after reading some of the comments here!:eek: Well that makes a lot of sense.

Listen all. I don't advocate for mandatory bowhunter education. What we have are a lot of novice hunters using bows. Skill development is good for all.

I do know that Government Co's and Bios are looking for solutions to a lack of education regarding bowhunting. Hunters may be experienced hunters, however new to the bowhunting component.

I'm simply trying to make people aware there is something of benefit in taking the course.

A hunter, interested in hunting with a bow, shouldn't have to have external motivation to take the course. I have spoken neither poorly or negatively about the course, I have defended the benefits. I've taken the course, my children have taken the course and I'm an instructor.

[Bowzone_Mikey]

as an avid bowhunter .... I havent read most of this thread but I got the gist of it ...

here is my personal opinion .... CORE was a waste of time .... and so was IBEP ....
why??? ya'll ask ... Because I was mentored into hunting and bowhunting by knowledgeable and ethicall people.

I personally think that new and young hunters would get far more out of being forced spend a season (or more)..."aprenticing" (for lack of better term) and learning the ropes if you will before being able to write for a licence(BC hunter #...core Exam ....as well as a dedicated Bowhunters license ) to allow them to hunt on their own .

It is also of my opinion if you wanna bowhunt one should get a bowhunters permit ... therefore meet some sort of qualifications ....

[sealevel]

Not everyone has a mentor mickey or someone to teach them the ropes . And i don`t think the core is a waste of time. but i do think it depends on who give`s the course as to what is got out of it.

[GoatGuy]

By putting part of IBEP into CORE isn't going to solve anything either.

CORE only teaches safe gun handling and basic bird/wildlife identification. If the student is a home study all they get is what's in the CORE textbook - what's in the textbook will not solve the problems you guys are talking about for bows or rifles.

There's a bit about ethics and such but it won't solve the problems identified in the above posts.

The move needs to be cultural - it's the exact same as hunting with a rifle.

I should also add that it's likely the people who take bad shots with bows are probably the same ones taking bad shots with guns.

This has to come from the hunting fraternity - a course won't make it happen.

[sealevel]

well said GG

[Bow Walker]

Is there some current widespread epidemic of Hunting problems associated with Bowhunters I have not heard about that would necessitate a mandatory training program

Contrary to popular belief, there are very few here who are pushing for the IBEP to be made mandatory. It'll happen all on its own without being shoved, dragged, or kicked. It's inevitable.

Seems we're all on the side of recruiting/educating, and wanting proper ethics instilled/developed in hunters though, which is good. It also looks as if we are the vocal minority - judging by the large number of bow hunters vs the few who choose to post up their views, which is not so good.

Hunters - as a group - don't seem to see the importance of standing up for their inherent right to hunt. Sad. It's apathy that will be the downfall (if it happens) of the sport.

[Bowzone_Mikey]

Not everyone has a mentor mickey or someone to teach them the ropes . And i don`t think the core is a waste of time. but i do think it depends on who give`s the course as to what is got out of it.

Merv I agree totally with what your saying .... but finding a "mentor" is pretty easy.

those of us that realize whats at stake with the future of our sport will be more than willing to take a kid or young adult hunting.

Dont get my previous statement wrong... I found them to be a waste because i was allready taught the stuff by people that taught me all about hunting ....

[Blk Arrow]

This is a great topic!!!

I think we all agree with Greybark’s suggestion.

8-) This would all be settled with an inclusion of a condensed IBEP segment in the current Core program.


Ethics are personal. Mentoring, imo, does have the greatest influence on a person’s ethical decisions. We can educate and inform but it all comes down to the individual.
That is why we have a justice system.

[bsa30-06]

By putting part of IBEP into CORE isn't going to solve anything either.

CORE only teaches safe gun handling and basic bird/wildlife identification. If the student is a home study all they get is what's in the CORE textbook - what's in the textbook will not solve the problems you guys are talking about for bows or rifles.

There's a bit about ethics and such but it won't solve the problems identified in the above posts.

The move needs to be cultural - it's the exact same as hunting with a rifle.

I should also add that it's likely the people who take bad shots with bows are probably the same ones taking bad shots with guns.

This has to come from the hunting fraternity - a course won't make it happen.


Goatguy i agree with most of what you said.As far as the CORE program goes i think it needs a complete overhaul, and i see no reason why it shouldn't include the IBEP course.As far as ethics are concerned, i dont think any course can teach you ethics you either have them or you dont.

[Will]

"Is there some current widespread epidemic of Hunting problems associated with Bowhunters I have not heard about that would necessitate a mandatory training program ?"

Still waiting ? :grin:

[Bowzone_Mikey]

Still waiting ? :grin:
Not in my eyes Will ....

But it seems that every time someone puts an arrow into an animal and it doesnt penitrate for whatever reason and the animal got away and is walking with an arrow it seems to make the news .... Usually painting all of us with one brush ....

maybe some beleive that wont happen with a manditory training program ...

Honestly the same could be said about Gun hunters .... the only differance is when a bad shot is put on a critter with a rifle ... there isnt a long shaft with bright feathers sticking out of the animal. and it happens as well ...

some I have talked to beleive there should be a 5 year qualifier proficiancy exam .... shooting skills etc to keep their ...hunters number ... I am pretty certain that would not fly ... that and range conditions are never the same as in feild conditions

Mikeys 2 cents worth

[Fisher-Dude]

To me, it makes no sense to add another layer of bureaucracy in the MoE. We have very limited budgets to manage the resource, and taking money from real, on the ground wildlife projects to fund another testing/watchdog role makes little sense. Should we take CORE again every time we buy a hunting license? Do we need an exam to get a fishing license? Do we need to re-take the firearms course every time we renew our PAL? How about that silly boaters' license where I needed to know the colour of a sailboat's mast lights on the left side of a channel so I could run my 3 horse on a mountain lake, yet I don't need it yet to run a cigar boat with twin 454's - should I take that every few years again? Answer these questions about YOURSELF, not about someone else.

We spend far too much time and money legislating and "protecting" ourselves from ourselves, when we should be putting that effort and money into hands-on wildlife and fisheries projects. The more complexity we add, the more likely people are going to walk away from the outdoors and just plain give up. THAT is the exact opposite of what we need to have happen.

[Will]

But it seems that every time someone puts an arrow into an animal and it doesnt penitrate for whatever reason and the animal got away and is walking with an arrow it seems to make the news .... Usually painting all of us with one brush ....

maybe some beleive that wont happen with a manditory training program ...

There does seem to be alot of Ignorance....especially from Rifle hunters dare I say regarding BowHunting.

I was just curious as to why the "push" for Bowhunter "Training" ??? Thought maybe I've been out of the loop and not heard about all the Animals running amock with Arrows pointing out everywhere......

The only archery instances I've heard about are almost always animals shot by Poachers outside of Game seasons and almost always in NO shooting areas..........or so things would seem.

Not terribly certain how Educating Honest Folks will cure these types ?

FWIW in over 25 years of Hunting I have never seen an animal running around with an arrow sticking out of it ???? Honestly I have not !

I have howevere seen plenty of game with jaws shot off....antlers with bullet holes....gut shot animals left to rot....rifle hunters using thier scopes to determine that I'm not a deer....3 instances of self inflicted gunshots locally in the last 4 years by hunters....etc. etc.

hmmmmmmm........I wonder where the Public's distaste of Hunters truly originates ?

My point being Perhaps there are better areas to invest Our efforts in instead of Ramming some Training course down the throats of everyone that chooses to Bow Hunt, which again I do not see where the great NEED for this course truly is ?

The ENTIRE CORE program needs to be revamped............it's out dated, underfunded, and really is inadequate to say the least.
Why Focus on the smallest Group of Hunters ? It makes no sense......

[Bowzone_Mikey]

I dont get it either ....

Paranoia perhaps ...

[willyqbc]

The move needs to be cultural - it's the exact same as hunting with a rifle.

I should also add that it's likely the people who take bad shots with bows are probably the same ones taking bad shots with guns.

This has to come from the hunting fraternity - a course won't make it happen.

For me this statement gets the closest to the issue that I have seen on this thread. I think that the hunting fraternity tends to "police" itself with a basic set of standards that we generally all can agree to. For example if someone were to come on here and state that they were going to go hunt moose with their .223 there would be all kinds of people jumping up to tell them it is a bad idea and explaining why it is a bad idea. Why?...because there is a huge knowledge base of gun hunters out there that know this is not the best idfea going. The difference with the bowhunting community is you have a smaller knowledge base to begin with and within that base there are a LOT of people out there who are mis-informed. So when that same person comes on here and says that he is going to hunt moose with a 40 pound bow using 65 grain expandable broadhead as soon as he gets his 80 yard pin sighted in, he will likely not get nearly the same amount of responses as the gun hunter did. Why....there are way fewer bowhunters out there and more importantly there are way fewer KNOWLEDGEABLE bowhunters to help steer this person in a better direction. So...as GG states this has to be a cultural transition, only way to make that happen in my opinion is by creating a wider knowledge base on the subject among the hunting community, thats where the IBEP course will be able to make a difference. Now, that being said I don't think it should be mandatory, but I do think we should take it upon ourselves to take it voluntarily.

my .02 cents
Chris

[bsa30-06]

Fisher-Dude and Will are thinking along the same lines as me.I don't see how making the course mandatory is going to help, but i can see how it would add alot of red tape and cost to a sport which already has enough of both.How ever it has been stated many times that the CORE program is outdated and needs to re-vamped so to me the logical solution would be to restucture the core program and include ATLEAST part of the IBEP course.I think this would go along way in educating alot of people about bowhunting.

[Onesock]

Well said Willy..

[The Hermit]

ETHICS - The rules or standards governing the conduct of a person or the members of a group: hunter's ethics.

MORALS - founded on the fundamental principles of right conduct rather than on legalities, enactment, or custom: moral obligations.

I took the Ontario Hunter's Safety Course when I was around 14 or 15 years old. I could have passed that exam without taking the course or reading the book. I still felt privileged to take the course and a little proud when I passed it. In my family it was a right of passage more so than a driver's license.

I had been going to deer camp (the family cottage) for years by then. I knew about ethics (the rules) because they had been instilled in me since day one. I had also handled and practiced with the 22, a 44 mag handgun, shotguns, a 30.06, a .308 etc. The rules and habits were solid.

I swore an oath that I'd taken a hunter's safety training course and was then exempt from taking the CORE course here in BC. Perhaps I should have taken it as a good review and I'm sure that I would have learned some good stuff. Eg. I totally suck at bird recognition because I've never hunted them.

My parents also raised me with a basic moral code. Things like respecting other people's property at least as much as you would your own; do no intentional harm; be honest and upright and when you **** up - man up; do not let an animal suffer; know your skill limitations; know your weapon's capabilities and don't take senseless risks. So far as a hunter I've turned out okay and have only a couple regrets in my 56 years.

I will be selling my compound bow and taking up a recurve this year. As a hunter that is new to bow-hunting, I feel in need of a little guidance and direction specific to the use of a bow in a real world hunting situation. I know that the IBEP course materials will review and confirm the ethics. I hope that the instructors will be able to help me understand how to act in accordance with my moral code.

I expect that we will set up a bunch of 3-D targets and approach them from various angles, elevations, and distances and then discuss the relative merits of taking that particular shot, get a little practice shooting, and to have a pretty good time doing it!

As for making the course mandatory, or putting in more bow-hunting specific content into the CORE course I am undecided. The CORE course doesn't give people any hands on experience so I'm unconvinced that it would do much good.

CORE probably needs a good overhaul. Theory is great for helping people understand the principles but doesn't do much for building skill in real life situations. Translating theory into ethical practice takes hands on guidance in my opinion.

How would this be... a new three part CORE course that covers:

Part One: The core CORE theoretical basics
Part Two: would provide a day of hands on training on your choice of either bows or guns or both.
Part Three: The PAL Course(s)

Hunting licenses would be available for bow or gun or both dependent on passing either or both the specialized hands on training sections? Much like a basic driver's license has different Classes: Motorcycles, Glasses, Day only etc.

[bsa30-06]

Hermit, what kind of criteria in part two of your suggestion would determine wether a person passed or failed.

[J_T]

Still waiting ? :grin:

I was just curious as to why the "push" for Bowhunter "Training" ???
Government is reviewing its policy on bowhunting. Has been for some time. This is coupled with enforcement issues identified by CO's and by management/opportunity issues raised by regional bios.

These Government bodies are asking a lot of questions about bowhunter education.

What the solution looks like is still a ways out. However, if the hunting community and those that choose to hunt with a bow, made an expression of interest in voluntarily taking a certified bowhunting course, it would likely be viewed favourably by decision makers.

Don't ya think?

[The Hermit]

Hermit, what kind of criteria in part two of your suggestion would determine wether a person passed or failed.

Good question and I'm not sure I have the best answer but I think instructor sign-off on attendance and that the person appeared to be paying attention and participating would be a huge step forward.

My nephew just took the Firearms course, passed the test for both restricted and non-restricted guns, and had never fired a gun in his life. Yet once his PAL arrives, he will legally able to purchase a gun and use it. :eek:

I have since taken him to the range, let him shoot a variety of long guns, coached him a little on proper handling, range rules, and tried to instill a little appreciation for what these things can do. We also got a day of "hunting" in where we did a little walk. Me with gun him without, just to get a taste of what it is like out there.

He "knew" almost all this stuff but it was clear to me (and him I think) that until a person handles the gun, repeatedly loads and unloads it safely keeping it pointed down range at all times, goes on an armed hike or two, and generally becomes practiced at safe management that they are not really prepared to be out there on there own!

Spending a day at the range with an instructor or two to cement the "theory" into "practice" is what is required IMHO.

I think the same thing would apply to a bow hunter. Safety but also ethical shooting and shot placement would be more the focus.

[bsa30-06]

Good question and I'm not sure I have the best answer but I think instructor sign-off on attendance and that the person appeared to be paying attention and participating would be a huge step forward.

My nephew just took the Firearms course, passed the test for both restricted and non-restricted guns, and had never fired a gun in his life. Yet once his PAL arrives, he will legally able to purchase a gun and use it. :eek:

I have since taken him to the range, let him shoot a variety of long guns, coached him a little on proper handling, range rules, and tried to instill a little appreciation for what these things can do. We also got a day of "hunting" in where we did a little walk. Me with gun him without, just to get a taste of what it is like out there.

He "knew" almost all this stuff but it was clear to me (and him I think) that until a person handles the gun, repeatedly loads and unloads it safely keeping it pointed down range at all times, goes on an armed hike or two, and generally becomes practiced at safe management that they are not really prepared to be out there on there own!

Spending a day at the range with an instructor or two to cement the "theory" into "practice" is what is required IMHO.

I think the same thing would apply to a bow hunter. Safety but also ethical shooting and shot placement would be more the focus.

I was only asking to see if you were going you were going to say anything about there ability to shoot accuratley.It would be a unrealistic expectation to expect anybody to pick up a bow and instantly be a top notch shot.I like your suggestion and answer, you can teach and demonstrate ethical shots and shot placement, you can even lay the foundation for good ethics.However no amount of teaching is going to make anybody use good ethics while hunting and i believe this is where the negative publicity(animals running around with arrows stuck in them)is going to come from.

[Fisher-Dude]

Government is reviewing its policy on bowhunting. Has been for some time. This is coupled with enforcement issues identified by CO's and by management/opportunity issues raised by regional bios.

These Government bodies are asking a lot of questions about bowhunter education.

What the solution looks like is still a ways out. However, if the hunting community and those that choose to hunt with a bow, made an expression of interest in voluntarily taking a certified bowhunting course, it would likely be viewed favourably by decision makers.

Don't ya think?

It always scares me a bit when government "reviews its policies". Hopefully, we don't get an ignorant bureaucrat making a decision that won't be in the best interests of bow hunters, would-be bow hunters, and wanna-be bow hunters.

JT, do you know if the MoE is planning on consulting with bow hunters in this review process?

[huntwriter]

Government is reviewing its policy on bowhunting. Has been for some time. This is coupled with enforcement issues identified by CO's and by management/opportunity issues raised by regional bios.

These Government bodies are asking a lot of questions about bowhunter education.

What the solution looks like is still a ways out. However, if the hunting community and those that choose to hunt with a bow, made an expression of interest in voluntarily taking a certified bowhunting course, it would likely be viewed favourably by decision makers.

Don't ya think?

Of course it would be viewed favorably by the government. Because it would give the government yet another tool to exert more control over people plus yet another means to pull money out of our pockets.

As I follow this thread I read that the majority of hunters do not find that there is a need for a mandatory bowhunter education course. In an earlier post, quite a long one, I explained among other facts that studies have shown that it made no difference in hunter behavior in American states were hunter education was mandatory versus those states that had not a mandatory hunter education. (Sorry for mentioning American statistics. Canadian statistics are not available and the few that are available are not specific or detailed enough to give an accurate picture. I am sure that American statistics to a degree can be safely applied to Canada too on this topic.)

By and large hunters are a very good crowd and have nothing to be ashemed off but stuff happens, things can go wrong and no amount of education can avoid that. Hunter education has not come about because there was a need for it. Hunter education was created as answer to appease animal right activists and political correctness. In short is was a solution to a problem that does not exist.

I am particularly concerned about the one or two voices here that are in favour of a shooting proficiency test. This has been tried before in other areas of North America and it failed horribly. How are you going to test proficiency? It cannot be done because there are simply to many variables in a real hunting situation. What if the student suffers from test anxiety and blows every shot but otherwise is a perfect shooter? Are we going to fail him? How many arrows/bullets have to hit the bulls eye of the target? Is the target stationary or is it a moving target? Are we to fail a student that misses the bulls eye but is still perfectly within the kill zone? Should we apply a point system like on 3-D archery tournaments?

I used to take part in 3-D archery tournaments and lost each time. Why, you may ask. Because I shot at quartering away targets like I would at a life animal, holding back behind the ribs. Would that have been a bowhunter proficiency test I would have lost even so in a real life hunting situation each shot was a perfect kill shot.

Another aspect that troubles me greatly is when I read remarks that bowhunters are more likely to wound/cripple animals. It’s absolute hogwash and utterly counterproductive bashing. Studies have shown that firearm hunters miss as much as bowhunters and crossbow hunters do. The average number of animals missed or crippled by hunters is very low, I have the exact figure not at hand at this very moment, but if memory serves me right it is overall less than 2%. More and mandatory hunter education will not eliminate that number because, despite what some believe, education cannot eliminate human error.

Political correctness, and some hunter organizations are part of this political movement, try very hard to do away with human error and the human factor but it won’t work. It hasn’t worked in Russia and China where political correctness was known by its proper name Marxism.

While hunter education is a good tool to promote hunting and help newcomers to get a very basic knowledge it wont make us look better in the public eye or even earn us more respect. What will earn us respect by the public to come out of hiding and speak out about what good hunting does for the environment, wildlife and the economy. Rather defending what we’re doing we have to learn to attack the antis and inform the public about the ugly truth behind the cuddly face of the animal rights movement. Like I said before, we hunters can be proud of what we do and what we have achieved in the field of wildlife conservation. No other group or organization has done so much as the hunters and hunter founded organizations, that is the message we have to drive home in public as vividly and vocal as the antis proclaim their agenda. With the only notable difference, we do not have to resort to lies, blackmail, violence and fabricated statistics.

To achieve that the first thing we hunters have to learn is stick together and stop the petty finger pointing. Firearm hunter, bowhunter, crossbow hunter who cares we’re are all hunters and we all sit in the same boat. The bowhunters loose then so will the rifle hunters. PETA & CO take on one segment at a time, cleavley using the divisions and petty squabbling among us to make their point against YOU the hunter.

[J_T]

JT, do you know if the MoE is planning on consulting with bow hunters in this review process?Good question. We've been working hard to ensure we are a part of the process. While some components of MOE have been working to include bowhunters in clarifying and understanding, it is very obvious the collective MOE at the forefront of this process have neither a desire to fully engage bowhunters, nor a full understanding of bowhunting. If we aren't knocking at the door to ensure we are included, they appear content to not include us. Or perhaps its, "exclude us".

Do I think we are in a consultation process with Gov now? No.

We approach with a non-confrontational position looking to provide informative disussion.

[Awishanew]

A lot of good discussion going on here.
One person indicated he believed only the dedicated bowhunter would take the course. The last course I helped put on had a fellow that had never hunted and said he probably never will. He came and thanked me when it was over and said it was great. 3 others were about 15 and just getting into hunting. They also said it was great.
As far as having it as a small part of the Core program: We took a full TWO days and hardly stopped for lunch. We instructors wanted the break not the guys taking the course. We must have made it interesting?

[The Hermit]

Denny are you coming down to help out wit the course in Vic Feb 2/3? It would be nice to see you again and have a good chat!

[The Hermit]

I was only asking to see if you were going you were going to say anything about there ability to shoot accuratley.It would be a unrealistic expectation to expect anybody to pick up a bow and instantly be a top notch shot.I like your suggestion and answer, you can teach and demonstrate ethical shots and shot placement, you can even lay the foundation for good ethics.However no amount of teaching is going to make anybody use good ethics while hunting and i believe this is where the negative publicity(animals running around with arrows stuck in them)is going to come from.

Fundamentally I agree with you. It is also important to appreciate that ethical bow hunters and ethical gun hunters will occasionally wound animals, sometimes losing them.

The fact that some arse-hole poachers arrow animals in cities and densely populated areas where the wounded animal runs around with an arrow sticking outta its butt isn't something that any course is going to stop. The best we can do then is point out to the media that this is not a hunter but the result of a poacher's criminal behaviour.

[Will]

So when's an IBEP coming to the Interior ?

Victoria is a big stretch at this time...........;)

[GoatGuy]

Of course it would be viewed favorably by the government. Because it would give the government yet another tool to exert more control over people plus yet another means to pull money out of our pockets.


Don't be too pessimistic - we've got a pretty good bunch in Victoria right now. They're onboard with less regulation and are taking steps in the right direction. ;-)

[huntwriter]

Don't be too pessimistic - we've got a pretty good bunch in Victoria right now. They're onboard with less regulation and are taking steps in the right direction. ;-)

Yes they do and for that I applaud the government of BC. We, or some of us, should therefore not propose now to make a mandatory bowhunter education course or add it to the existing C.O.R.E. course, plus as suggested add a bowhunter license.

I have been an avid bowhunter for over 15 years and if something like that would come to pass I would hang my bow on the wall and say “Thank you, I will make use of the rifle season from now on.” I am sure that others would give up bowhunting too and it would deter newcomers from taking up bowhunting. I like to bowhunt but it is not necessary for my happiness, because first and foremost I am simply a hunter, period.

[J_T]

So when's an IBEP coming to the Interior ?
More a question of when would you like one? It isn't going to happen for one person.

Hermit now can appreciate that while you might want one in your area, it seems there isn't a line up of people wanting to take it.

I believe there are instructors in the Interior. Check it out through any local bowhunting clubs. If not, get back to us. Find a location, determine a few dates and put out some feelers.

[The Hermit]

More a question of when would you like one? It isn't going to happen for one person.

Hermit now can appreciate that while you might want one in your area, it seems there isn't a line up of people wanting to take it.

I believe there are instructors in the Interior. Check it out through any local bowhunting clubs. If not, get back to us. Find a location, determine a few dates and put out some feelers.

On the contrary Victoria has 9 people signed up, over the Chrismas break, just from HuntBC. The advertisement in the Vic Fish and Game Newsletter hasn't hit the street yet. Built it and they will come!!! :biggrin:

[willyqbc]

So when's an IBEP coming to the Interior ?

Ted Kennedy has stated that he is willing to come up to Quesnel here and put on a clinic. I am trying to work out scheduling on my end for late may. I will be hosting it at my home so scheduling is the issue with spring being a busy time of year for us here. I will let folks know as soon as i can.

Chris

[J_T]

Good to hear Chris. Thanks.

[Will]

Ted Kennedy has stated that he is willing to come up to Quesnel here and put on a clinic. I am trying to work out scheduling on my end for late may. I will be hosting it at my home so scheduling is the issue with spring being a busy time of year for us here. I will let folks know as soon as i can.

Chris
Yes Thanks for the info...and your efforts:wink:

[Bow Walker]

So when's an IBEP coming to the Interior ?




More a question of when would you like one? It isn't going to happen for one person.

Hermit now can appreciate that while you might want one in your area, it seems there isn't a line up of people wanting to take it.

I believe there are instructors in the Interior. Check it out through any local bowhunting clubs. If not, get back to us. Find a location, determine a few dates and put out some feelers.
The above is - in my opinion - part of the "perception problem" with bow hunting.

Nothing about the IBEP is formalized, except perhaps the course content itself. IBEP is too young (in Canada) yet to be able to do anything like tour the province(s) putting on scheduled courses. An individual has to literally do all the administrative footwork and then "invite" an instructor to come and present the course. BTW...Kudos to Bill for sticking with it.

In this growing pains type aspect of both bowhunting and IBEP (here in the great white north that is) we, who are avid archers, can consider ourselves in on the ground floor. You'll be able to say "Why I remember when..."

[tomahawk]

Well I have to confess that I have not read all the posts on this thread but I have read enough to get the general drift and that is that there is a lot of passion around this subject.

IBEP has been around this province for more than 20 yrs, I taught the course in PG in the 80's, and at that time the Min of E were talking with us about making it mandatory. I don't know where that sits now as I have been out of the loop since then with respect to being an instructor.

As both a rifle and bow hunter, and a CORE instructor, I personally strive to gain knowledge whenever I can to make my enjoyment of the great sport of hunting that much better for me, my partners and family. So for me its a no brainer that I will do whatever I can to learn more, even though I harvested my first animal 40 yrs ago and have harvested more than I can remember since, I still can learn something that will improve my overall enjoyment and ulitmately my success.

That is actually one of the main reason's that I have joined this site, to learn from each and everyone of you! Anyways that's my 2 cents.

It's great to see so many of you joining in and not sitting back in the bush!

Tom

[bsa30-06]

Well I have to confess that I have not read all the posts on this thread but I have read enough to get the general drift and that is that there is a lot of passion around this subject.

IBEP has been around this province for more than 20 yrs, I taught the course in PG in the 80's, and at that time the Min of E were talking with us about making it mandatory. I don't know where that sits now as I have been out of the loop since then with respect to being an instructor.

As both a rifle and bow hunter, and a CORE instructor, I personally strive to gain knowledge whenever I can to make my enjoyment of the great sport of hunting that much better for me, my partners and family. So for me its a no brainer that I will do whatever I can to learn more, even though I harvested my first animal 40 yrs ago and have harvested more than I can remember since, I still can learn something that will improve my overall enjoyment and ulitmately my success.

That is actually one of the main reason's that I have joined this site, to learn from each and everyone of you! Anyways that's my 2 cents.

It's great to see so many of you joining in and not sitting back in the bush!

Tom


Tom glad to see you joining in.I agree with you ,as hunters i think we should always strive to better ourselves.My only problem with the IBEP is if it is made mandatory, i believe we have enough red tape already, and i don't see how it could be introduced without causing more.

[tomahawk]

Hey BSA, as I say I didn't get to read all the thread, what is all the red tape that will be created by it becoming mandatory?

Great name, I have a BSA 30-06 with Leopold that I still use, shot a couple 4 points with it in 07 actually. I bought it in 1967 but I believe that they were last made before that, do you know when they stopped manufacturing them?

Tom

[J_T]

Tom glad to see you joining in.I agree with you ,as hunters i think we should always strive to better ourselves.My only problem with the IBEP is if it is made mandatory, i believe we have enough red tape already, and i don't see how it could be introduced without causing more.

As this thread has now settled down somewhat, I'll throw this out for thought.

MOE (Particularly the CO service) have identified the "last minute bowhunter" as an issue. This is not an ethical issue. This is however a performance issue. A person who may be a proficient hunter, is identifying a last minute opportunity, purchasing a bow or crossbow in the days prior to the bow only season and is going afield, generally without the required skill set to ensure the hunt goes as planned. The result, as portrayed by the CO service - while may be viewed ultimately as a public perception issue is viewed as one more of performance and enforcement by Government.

So an obvious solution is based around ways to improve performance in those that participate. Whether we view it as Government initiated action, or as action that comes as a result of our own lack of initiative to resolve a problem it is view by most as red tape.

If we can't improve upon the performance, or we can't address what Government perceives as the problem (last minute bowhunter) we will be in a position where skill development will be required. Most of you term this as red tape. It isn't ethics, it's performance.

It isn't our hunting skills that are in question. It's our skills used to kill and recover (an animal) with a different weapon. This doesn't mean that we need lessons in shooting. In part, it means we need to develop our decision making skills in what is a high percentage shot and when to take it. Or not.

[Bowzone_Mikey]

JT ... as you may know ... the sport of 3D archery started out as hunting practice ... the majority of people still it that way (albeit some have realized its evolved to something beyond that ...but that is for a differant thread)

I know 2 or 3 Big archery shop owners quiet well in Alberta and all have said to me at one time or another thats some last minute guys come in and buy their stuff ... and ethically they dont want to sell to them at that moment in time ...but as business people they know that would be suicide or at least shooting themselves in the foot .....

everyone....
Now that all said ... I still dont know much about the 3D scene here in BC but I know in Alberta every weekend between the beggining of april and middle of August there is a 3D outdoor shoot somewhere in the province ...most of them are set up with Hunters in mind ie: realistic scenarios ...realistic shots etc....

I am fairly convinced that is the case here in BC as well ...maybe not every weekend ...but I am willing to bet its a better ratio than every other weekend from may till huntin' season.

Now ..... what needs to be done to get these last minute guys to buy earlier in the year and get out to a couple 3D shoots??
*Maybe a local club getting together with retailers and offering a discount coupon to their shoots with the purchase of a new hunting bow, or admitance with a club member to their 3D course if they have permanant facility?
... any others ?

[Will]

I still can't help but Feel there seems to be a lot of Folks seeking Solutions to problems that don't exist.........:-?

[huntwriter]

As this thread has now settled down somewhat, I'll throw this out for thought.

MOE (Particularly the CO service) have identified the "last minute bowhunter" as an issue. This is not an ethical issue. This is however a performance issue. A person who may be a proficient hunter, is identifying a last minute opportunity, purchasing a bow or crossbow in the days prior to the bow only season and is going afield, generally without the required skill set to ensure the hunt goes as planned. The result, as portrayed by the CO service - while may be viewed ultimately as a public perception issue is viewed as one more of performance and enforcement by Government.

So an obvious solution is based around ways to improve performance in those that participate. Whether we view it as Government initiated action, or as action that comes as a result of our own lack of initiative to resolve a problem it is view by most as red tape.

If we can't improve upon the performance, or we can't address what Government perceives as the problem (last minute bowhunter) we will be in a position where skill development will be required. Most of you term this as red tape. It isn't ethics, it's performance.

It isn't our hunting skills that are in question. It's our skills used to kill and recover (an animal) with a different weapon. This doesn't mean that we need lessons in shooting. In part, it means we need to develop our decision making skills in what is a high percentage shot and when to take it. Or not.
This “perceived” problem exists not only with “last minute” bowhunters. I know myself of novice hunters that purchased a rifle and a week later they went hunting with it having spent less than an hour at a shooting range.

Every person wanting to hunt in this province has to make the C.O.R.E. courses were they among many other things learn to make the right choices. These choices apply equally to bow – and rifle hunters.

If, as you stated, the government perceives a “problem” with bowhunters, I am rather inclined to call it, the government “smell the bacon”. As bowhunting becomes more popular here, and it does, then the government is raking their brains how to extract money from that growing segment of hunters. Thus a “problem is recognized” found, created, call it what you will. Upon which a resolution will follow and that might very well be mandatory bowhunter education.

Money is a big motivator for government to find “perceived problems” and then create a “solution” for it.

[Will]

If, as you stated, the government perceives a “problem” with bowhunters, I am rather inclined to call it, the government “smell the bacon”. As bowhunting becomes more popular here, and it does, then the government is raking their brains how to extract money from that growing segment of hunters. Thus a “problem is recognized” found, created, call it what you will. Upon which a resolution will follow and that might very well be mandatory bowhunter education.

Money is a big motivator for government to find “perceived problems” and then create a “solution” for it.
Now we're finally making some sense..........:wink:

[J_T]

Bowzone. Good post and valid points.

i would suggest though (really my own observation) that 3D has followed a set of rules that have led it into a target archery event, rather than practise for hunting. Of course, I agree entirely, going to shoots is not only fun, but does help make us better shooters. My issue might be, that there is a focus on shots that are unrealistic in a hunting sense. You are correct, probably a good discussion for another thread.

Following your comment about the archery shops in Alberta, I know that the sale of crossbows locally in particular goes through the roof in the last week of August. I've been in and talked to the owners/salesmen about talking to buyers about performance, and for instance bolt weight. That the purchasers require better information from dealers. (See the post by Hunter 1947 regarding crossbow performance as an example)

I hear lots of talk from guys that are so impressed, their crossbow will nail the bulls eye at 100 yards. They make an assumption that will work in a hunting scenario.



I still can't help but Feel there seems to be a lot of Folks seeking Solutions to problems that don't exist.........:???:
Will, I'm not sure what to say to this. I'm not trying to be confrontational. It is your opinion that a problem doesn't exist. You are entitled to that. I'm simply passing along information I have. Perhaps if you and I had sat around a fire and shared a cold one you might have better faith in my comments.

I sit on a regional wildlife committee, I am in discussion with Co's and Regional Bios regarding enforcement, information and education on bowhunting, and I am in discussion on a provincial basis with MOE around the province's policy on bowhunting. What more would you want me to say? I am doing what I believe is the right thing, passing along information I have learned. If you don't want to accept it that's your right.

For the record, I have long been a proponent for voluntary education. I also felt the voluntary movement would have a higher percentage of hunters participating.

IBEP is mandatory in many jurisdictions. Why? Perhaps because it works to solve issues or problems. There are lots of solutions, education is a key solution.

[huntwriter]

JT ... as you may know ... the sport of 3D archery started out as hunting practice ... the majority of people still it that way (albeit some have realized its evolved to something beyond that ...but that is for a differant thread)

I know 2 or 3 Big archery shop owners quiet well in Alberta and all have said to me at one time or another thats some last minute guys come in and buy their stuff ... and ethically they dont want to sell to them at that moment in time ...but as business people they know that would be suicide or at least shooting themselves in the foot .....

everyone....
Now that all said ... I still dont know much about the 3D scene here in BC but I know in Alberta every weekend between the beggining of april and middle of August there is a 3D outdoor shoot somewhere in the province ...most of them are set up with Hunters in mind ie: realistic scenarios ...realistic shots etc....

I am fairly convinced that is the case here in BC as well ...maybe not every weekend ...but I am willing to bet its a better ratio than every other weekend from may till huntin' season.

Now ..... what needs to be done to get these last minute guys to buy earlier in the year and get out to a couple 3D shoots??
*Maybe a local club getting together with retailers and offering a discount coupon to their shoots with the purchase of a new hunting bow, or admitance with a club member to their 3D course if they have permanant facility?
... any others ?

I actually would endorse such an idea, as long we could keep the government out of it. They tend to mess up the best intentions.;)

[J_T]

This “perceived” problem exists not only with “last minute” bowhunters. I know myself of novice hunters that purchased a rifle and a week later they went hunting with it having spent less than an hour at a shooting range.

Every person wanting to hunt in this province has to make the C.O.R.E. courses were they among many other things learn to make the right choices. These choices apply equally to bow – and rifle hunters.

If, as you stated, the government perceives a “problem” with bowhunters, I am rather inclined to call it, the government “smell the bacon”. As bowhunting becomes more popular here, and it does, then the government is raking their brains how to extract money from that growing segment of hunters. Thus a “problem is recognized” found, created, call it what you will. Upon which a resolution will follow and that might very well be mandatory bowhunter education.

Money is a big motivator for government to find “perceived problems” and then create a “solution” for it.

I don't disagree with your comment here, but I should clarify, Government has not said it supports or is going to a mandatory position on bowhunter education. I don't agree that Government is back at the financial management module trying to figure out how much can be made from something like this.

I agree that similar issues of performance apply to all sectors of the hunting community.

As a bowhunter, I want to believe Government is willing to listen to participants in a particular area to learn, educate themselves, clarify issues and look for and work together on solutions. I'm encouraged when they email or phone to talk. I and others work hard to develop relationships with Government that we come in peace, that we want to work collaboratively to support Government objectives (recruitment, retention, responsible stewardship) and ensure our traditional heritage continues.

[bsa30-06]

well i would agree that there probably is a problem with the "last minute bowhunter" who buys a bow or crossbow and does not have the skill to operate it efficientle or know its limitations.The core program has not made new rifle hunters more efficient, so how will a mandatory bowhunting course make a bowhunter more efficient.?

[huntwriter]

I don't disagree with your comment here, but I should clarify, Government has not said it supports or is going to a mandatory position on bowhunter education. I don't agree that Government is back at the financial management module trying to figure out how much can be made from something like this.

I agree that similar issues of performance apply to all sectors of the hunting community.

As a bowhunter, I want to believe Government is willing to listen to participants in a particular area to learn, educate themselves, clarify issues and look for and work together on solutions. I'm encouraged when they email or phone to talk. I and others work hard to develop relationships with Government that we come in peace, that we want to work collaboratively to support Government objectives (recruitment, retention, responsible stewardship) and ensure our traditional heritage continues.

I fully respect the hard work you and others do and if I can be of any assistance I would love too. I have sat on many government committees and hearings (not about hunting and not in Canada). Over the many years of doing that I have grown very cynical about the motives, self flattering and party political agendas of individual government agencies.

As a hunter that enjoys bowhunting, with compound and crossbow, more than other form of hunting I look forward to see that segment growing in this province. Having said that I still would strongly oppose any mandatory addition to the C.O.R.E. course.

[J_T]

well i would agree that there probably is a problem with the "last minute bowhunter" who buys a bow or crossbow and does not have the skill to operate it efficientle or know its limitations.The core program has not made new rifle hunters more efficient, so how will a mandatory bowhunting course make a bowhunter more efficient.?


A logical question. (perhaps we can ease up on the mandatory aspect and just focus on "education") All too often we equate "more efficient" with physical skill level. The best shooter at a 3D is not necessarily the best hunter. The IBEP is focused on your cognitive processes. Using your mind. What it works on, is not how to become a better shot, but how to identify when the time is right to take the shot. Or not take the shot.

If hunters take better shots, higher percentage shots, we are in essence, more efficient.

We know modern crossbows and compounds are accurate, and it doesn't take a user long to become comfortable with one. That can create a misperception about skill level. Animals move, targets don't.

What is harder, is holding off on a marginal shot. Animal is in close, I know I can hit it. The question is, with the process by which an arrow kills, can I kill the animal in an efficient manner? The hunter, shifts from hunter to killer. You must.

The "talking" about what happens, what could happen, when should a shot be taken is part of what IBEP is about. Following up on a shot, how long to wait, depending on the type of hit. What to make of the blood you see.

This contributes to making hunters more efficient. This is a bit different than when rifle hunting because at the time a shot might present itself, generally when you are bowhunting there can be no counsel from a mentor or friend nearby. You are alone to make the decision.

[Bow Walker]

Firstly - I must be missing something in this thread. I haven't read anything that suggests to me that IBEP has a hidden group who are trying to get it made mandatory. All I can deduce is that the chances are very high that IBEP will eventually become mandatory - through a process that involves discussion, input, listening, and consensus.

Pre-firstly (I forgot)...a huge thank you to all for a very civil and yet still lively discussion here. Varying points of view being postulated with respect and thoughtfulness...

OK, enough with the commercials - now back to our regular programing.

B.Z.M... you do come up with some different ideas don't you? Not only different by relevant too. Incentives to go out and get some 'voluntary' education. Great idea. One that is not costly to the cash-strapped clubs, either.

Will...(and H W).....with respect :smile:......you two seem to think that there is a deep, dark conspiracy among archers and/or bowhunters. It seems from your replies that you believe that there is a segment of government and a majority of archers who are hell bent to get something, (anything) made mandatory so the there can be revenue generated from it for the public coffers. Am I wrong? I just can't swallow that without a big gulp of something, (anything). :shock:

To my knowledge I've never met J_T but just from his comments here I have to side with him. Collaborative discussion is the way to progress. Face it, hunting is a regulated sport. Always has been and always will be. It isn't a cash grab, it isn't part of a hidden agenda. It's our duly elected officials (however tunnel visioned they may be) acting with their usual "speed" in attempting to do what they think is right - both for now and for the future.

I know, I know...thinking gov't employees is a definite oxymoron, but what's a guy to do?

We all agree that education is the way to go here, for both the subject of ethics (it's a start) and for the subject of recruitment. Unfortunately we are stuck with the bureaucracy and the 'way things are done around here' when it comes to governmental decisions.

[huntwriter]

Will...(and H W).....with respect :smile:......you two seem to think that there is a deep, dark conspiracy among archers and/or bowhunters. It seems from your replies that you believe that there is a segment of government and a majority of archers who are hell bent to get something, (anything) made mandatory so the there can be revenue generated from it for the public coffers. Am I wrong? I just can't swallow that without a big gulp of something, (anything). :shock:


I don't think that there is a conspiracy but I do know how government works, as I said in another post I have sat on many committees and hearings. Intentions are well meant by the bowhunters and those that represent them but then politics get involved. I trust politicians as much as I would trust a prostitute.

But then again maybe I am just paranoid.:lol:

[bsa30-06]

A logical question. (perhaps we can ease up on the mandatory aspect and just focus on "education") All too often we equate "more efficient" with physical skill level. The best shooter at a 3D is not necessarily the best hunter. The IBEP is focused on your cognitive processes. Using your mind. What it works on, is not how to become a better shot, but how to identify when the time is right to take the shot. Or not take the shot.

If hunters take better shots, higher percentage shots, we are in essence, more efficient.

We know modern crossbows and compounds are accurate, and it doesn't take a user long to become comfortable with one. That can create a misperception about skill level. Animals move, targets don't.

What is harder, is holding off on a marginal shot. Animal is in close, I know I can hit it. The question is, with the process by which an arrow kills, can I kill the animal in an efficient manner? The hunter, shifts from hunter to killer. You must.

The "talking" about what happens, what could happen, when should a shot be taken is part of what IBEP is about. Following up on a shot, how long to wait, depending on the type of hit. What to make of the blood you see.

This contributes to making hunters more efficient. This is a bit different than when rifle hunting because at the time a shot might present itself, generally when you are bowhunting there can be no counsel from a mentor or friend nearby. You are alone to make the decision.

Okay lets throw the mandatory issue out the window for a minute.
I have a question for everybody.If as a hunter you could take a course that would expand your knowledge and give you some skills that could make you a better hunter would you do it?
Well i asked the question so i will answer it.......yes
i also think that most of the people that have responded in this thread will answer the same way.I don't think there is anybody who is questioning or doubting the education value of the IBEP.So how can we get more people interested in taking the course/what has to happen.?

[Bow Walker]

In a word - Exposure. Let the cat outta tha bag. Advertise the course in the Hunting Regs. Promote the course. Add some pretty girls in skimpy clothing.

The list gets worse from here on in......

[The Hermit]

I don't think that there is a conspiracy but I do know how government works, as I said in another post I have sat on many committees and hearings. Intentions are well meant by the bowhunters and those that represent them but then politics get involved. I trust politicians as much as I would trust a prostitute.

But then again maybe I am just paranoid.:lol:

You are of course welcome to your opinions (paranoid delusions) LOL

However, I too have worked inside and externally to many Government bodies over two significantly lengthy careers. It has been my experience that most public servants are hard working individuals that are honest, intelligent, dedicated, exhibit a high degree of integrity, that are often underpaid. This is especially the case for the those with professional status in the "Land/Water/Air ministries, health, and social services ministries. To compare them to prostitutes displays a genuine ignorance, is derogatory, and certainly has no place here.

Politicians and political parties are another animal entirely. They are indeed very interested in generating revenue as a way to offset the costs of enabling the public service to provide adequate service levels to a demanding public that seems to have a never ending thirst for MORE!!! In fact managing a balanced budget and even driving a positive bottom line gets them votes because most of us think those are good things! Consider it a bit of user pay! Or do you think that the Government should pay for absolutely everything... tuition fees etc. If so I assume you vote for the NDP??

[GoatGuy]

If IBEP becomes mandatory how many bowhunters will quit bowhunting or how many potential recruits will be lost?

[J_T]

Of course it would have an impact. You've said it yourself though, most people begin hunting with a rifle. Again, can we move off the mandatory? But since you brought it up..... it depends on the solution. CORE already has an enormous impact on recruitment. Most everyone makes comments that a mentor (father, uncle, friend) is most responsible for thier hunting skill, not CORE.

Education is required no question. When we take education at 12 years of age (when most take CORE), how much of it do we pay attention to? When we take something like IBEP as an adult who is passionate about something, how much information will we retain? IBEP isn't about regulating activity, it's about enhancing activity.

IBEP aside, and not attempting to derail this thread, but I have for years said that we need a new recruitment tool that provides a hunter the opportunity to hunt (under a controlled situation) without first having taken CORE.

This does two things. It opens to door to being able to respond to the question "I'd like to try hunting", without having to go through the cost of CORE, and second, it provides a mentor an opportunity to get young people out.

We might want to look at creating a YOUTH package, or a first time hunter package, that allows a person who is accompanied by a qualified individual to go to an MOE office and purchase a $25 "package" that allows them a bear, turkey, upland birds and a deer. So depending on the season, they have something to hunt.

[Onesock]

We have hosted the IBEP course on Vancouver Island for the last 5/6 years. I would say we averaged about 8 guys per course,therefore roughly say about 50 guys took the course. This course has been posted on here for a couple of weeks and I can't believe there are only 8 guys signed up for it. As Bow Walker says how do we get the word out about this. For sure guys that only shoot their bows for 2 weeks a year will never take the course and IMO these are the guys that should be taking the course.

[GoatGuy]

Of course it would have an impact. You've said it yourself though, most people begin hunting with a rifle. Again, can we move off the mandatory? But since you brought it up..... it depends on the solution. CORE already has an enormous impact on recruitment. Most everyone makes comments that a mentor (father, uncle, friend) is most responsible for thier hunting skill, not CORE.

Education is required no question. When we take education at 12 years of age (when most take CORE), how much of it do we pay attention to? When we take something like IBEP as an adult who is passionate about something, how much information will we retain? IBEP isn't about regulating activity, it's about enhancing activity.

IBEP aside, and not attempting to derail this thread, but I have for years said that we need a new recruitment tool that provides a hunter the opportunity to hunt (under a controlled situation) without first having taken CORE.

This does two things. It opens to door to being able to respond to the question "I'd like to try hunting", without having to go through the cost of CORE, and second, it provides a mentor an opportunity to get young people out.

We might want to look at creating a YOUTH package, or a first time hunter package, that allows a person who is accompanied by a qualified individual to go to an MOE office and purchase a $25 "package" that allows them a bear, turkey, upland birds and a deer. So depending on the season, they have something to hunt.

being worked on.

Always nice to see solutions folks coming up with solutions.

[huntwriter]

Hermit - …so I assume you vote for the NDP?? I have been raised conservative, live conservative and vote conservative.;)

I am sorry if you’re offended by my remark about the prostitute and apologize to you for that. I meant it as a joke and should have put an emoticon with it. What can I say in my defense, I am far from politically correct.


bsa30-06 - I have a question for everybody.If as a hunter you could take a course that would expand your knowledge and give you some skills that could make you a better hunter would you do it? A resounding yes. As hunters, as in life, one never is finish with learning. Hunter courses are a great tool to pass on knowledge, so are seminars and clinics, reading books, talking to other hunters and so on. Hunter education courses offer many benefits especially for the novice hunters, because not only does he/she learn about our heritage but also gets to meet like minded folks and make new friends within the hunting community that hopefully will provide support long after the education course has finished.


Bow Walker - In a word - Exposure. Let the cat outta tha bag. Advertise the course in the Hunting Regs. Promote the course. Add some pretty girls in skimpy clothing.

The list gets worse from here on in...... Advertising that appeals to young people certainly will go a very long way in promoting our hunting heritage and turning young people on. One part that I always find missing in the advertising is FUN. Young people want to have fun and hunting is fun so why not promote that part too.

"Add some pretty girls in skimpy clothing." Why not if it helps. When BowTech added skimpily clad ladies in the advertising the bow sales skyrocketed.:grin: I find nothing wrong with a little tasteful sex appeal.


GoatGuy - If IBEP becomes mandatory how many bowhunters will quit bowhunting or how many potential recruits will be lost? As of this writing I have the exact figures not handy but when New York state introduced mandatory hunter education for all age groups they lost about 25% of the bowhunters. Mainly older bowhunters found it to much hassle and an insult having bowhunted for many decades and now having to prove to be capable of bowhunting. New York also has a mandatory bow/rifle shooting proficiency test, I guess that didn’t help either. In states where the mandatory hunter education courses had an age limit like; “…if you are born after 1965…” the loss of hunters was considerably less.

[The Hermit]

I have been raised conservative, live conservative and vote conservative.;)

I am sorry if you’re offended by my remark about the prostitute and apologize to you for that. I meant it as a joke and should have put an emoticon with it. What can I say in my defense, I am far from politically correct.


No worries, I wondered if it was said in jest... seemed a bit out of character. If I lived in the States I'd be a dyed in the wool Libertarian! :lol:

[sealevel]

I for one will not take the course . All the courses and all the paperwork will not make a bit of difference .There will still be marginal shots taken with bow or rifle . I know many very sucsesfull bowhunters if i need help i will ask one of them . One of them took the course so he could hunt antalope in wyoming . I think his exact words were . What a ------- waste of time.

[Bow Walker]

IBEP aside, and not attempting to derail this thread, but I have for years said that we need a new recruitment tool that provides a hunter the opportunity to hunt (under a controlled situation) without first having taken CORE.

This does two things. It opens to door to being able to respond to the question "I'd like to try hunting", without having to go through the cost of CORE, and second, it provides a mentor an opportunity to get young people out.

We might want to look at creating a YOUTH package, or a first time hunter package, that allows a person who is accompanied by a qualified individual to go to an MOE office and purchase a $25 "package" that allows them a bear, turkey, upland birds and a deer. So depending on the season, they have something to hunt.

J_T, that, on the surface, is a very good suggestion. Implementation and/or monitoring however is a whole different ballgame. It would be difficult to say the least. Creation of another level of governmental red tape (as in the necessary forms, records, monitoring, etc.) would almost certainly inhibit the popularity of the program.

Consider the following...
As a youngster I was allowed to tag along with my Dad and his hunting buddies after I was deemed old enough to keep up, to be able to sit still, and to be able to keep quiet - all when necessary. That mentoring process not only laid the groundwork for the formation of my ethics, but it took me most of the way towards my love of the woods (whether hunting or just hiking) as stands today.

I think that if a mentor were to take an inexperienced person (young or oder) on a few hunting trips - be it gun or bow - that 'student' could not help but develop a desire to go further. That student would then be ready for the C.O.R.E. program. He or she would then pay a lot more attention and would retain more information than almost any other person in the course.

The above assumes that the 'student' in question displayed an interest in the first place and could then access a mentor or even a local Fish & Game Club where there were mentors available for coaching.

There is a definite process or path that (IMO) should be followed here. An interested person approaches the F&G club in the area, is teamed with an enthusiastic mentor, goes out on a pre-determined number of hunts (without carrying weapons), is 'passed' by the mentor and then enrolls in the C.O.R.E. program.

By that time he or she, if interested in bow hunting, has a contact or two that will be able to take the education further or at the very least introduce the person to an Archery club.

Even so, what is needed is advertising exposure. Something to make the process fun (as H W suggests). Something to make the whole experience interesting and worthwhile. Although if the person is even halfway interested the process will be "fun".

[Bow Walker]

I for one will not take the course . All the courses and all the paperwork will not make a bit of difference .There will still be marginal shots taken with bow or rifle . I know many very sucsesfull bowhunters if i need help i will ask one of them . One of them took the course so he could hunt antalope in wyoming . I think his exact words were . What a ------- waste of time.
How about teaching/mentoring younger or inexperienced hunter wannabe's? Become an instructor and pass along all the knowledge and enthusiasm that you have accumulated over the years. Sounds gratifying to me.

[sealevel]

Bowwalker i already do that. I took my neffew out this last fall and he got his first deer .I have given bows to 3 local kids i`ve started 3 grandsons shooting i make strings for kids bows . i couch kids almost every week . What more gratefacation do i need ??

[Onesock]

Sealevel-With your vast knowledge and experience you should become a IBEP instructor and share your bowhunting experience with the other bowhunters.

[J_T]

Implementation and/or monitoring however is a whole different ballgame. It would be difficult to say the least. Creation of another level of governmental red tape (as in the necessary forms, records, monitoring, etc.) would almost certainly inhibit the popularity of the program.
I don't see it that way. It doesn't have to be all that onerus on hunters or on Government.

Keep in mind, we are moving to an electronic system. Hunter numbers will be used to manage users/clients. Tracking doesn't become a huge task. Build the rules into an automated system.

I respect the aspect of hunting as a youth back in the day, but in today's world there are a lot of diversions for kids and to attain increased levels of recruitment we have to find ways to be sexy for them. When kids today decide they want something, they want it now. Not after years of following Dad around in the cold, wet, dark bush. :smile:

Your comment about finding a mentor at a F&G club is valid and along the lines of how I see mentors being established. But when the youth goes out on those hunts, they need to be hunting with the potential to take the animal. If we want it to be successful, we can't have kids hunting off of other hunters tags. THe youth package would allow a mentor to assist a youth in getting their own.

[sealevel]

Sealevel-With your vast knowledge and experience you should become a IBEP instructor and share your bowhunting experience with the other bowhunters.

no way onesock . i would like to get my coachs cert. But courses are my biggest pi$$ off in life . People seem to think the cure to all problems is another course.

[GoatGuy]

As of this writing I have the exact figures not handy but when New York state introduced mandatory hunter education for all age groups they lost about 25% of the bowhunters. Mainly older bowhunters found it to much hassle and an insult having bowhunted for many decades and now having to prove to be capable of bowhunting. New York also has a mandatory bow/rifle shooting proficiency test, I guess that didn’t help either. In states where the mandatory hunter education courses had an age limit like; “…if you are born after 1965…” the loss of hunters was considerably less.

Every time mandatory education is implemented recruitment also drops right off - causations are often misidentified but the turnover of current hunters has a multiplying effect when it comes to recruitment. Recruitment or the lack thereof is lost in the following generations of would be hunters.

Eastern states, such as New York have many special weapons seasons which were implemented mainly because of urbanization and safety concerns. Today many states have wt's that are out of control and major CWD problems and concerns. In these states they don't have enough hunters to meet harvest targets because they've put too many restrictions and regulations in front of hunters in the past. Conservation was lost many years ago and population limitations often only occur through bumpers and grills resulting in the needless loss of life of both people and wildlife. In BC most bowhunters are not bowhunting because they have no other local opportunities, it's because they're opportunistic rifle hunters. These people have the time and money that allows them to stretch their season. Likely making the avid more avid - does little for recruitment and retention.

I don't think we have the culture or the willingness of our hunter population to adopt mandatory education if we really want to recruit and retain hunters. I think we'll be shooting ourselves in the foot (choose your weapon :biggrin:). For some reason I feel slightly better when somebody else does it for us. :roll:

[J_T]

In BC most bowhunters are not bowhunting because they have no other local opportunities, it's because they're opportunistic rifle hunters. Are we sure?:biggrin: How many are bowhunters first, but have to resort to a rifle to fill the freezer? A question of perspective perhaps.

[GoatGuy]

Are we sure?:biggrin:

Yes I'm sure, but I'm also sure I need stats to satisfy everyone - somebody needs to come up with some $ and study this (properly). If I were active in a bowhunting organization I'd be pushing to put the $ up for this.

In studies that I've read bowhunting isn't considered a primary recruitment tool and so far as retention goes nobody's looked into it - it's all about additional participation, but the question is: who's participating?????

I think it would be very interesting to understand the motivations and the types of hunters who are pursuing bow only opportunities and what that means for recruitment and retention in BC.

Until then a pretty darn good guess is all I can give.:biggrin:

[Bow Walker]

Sealevel-With your vast knowledge and experience you should become a IBEP instructor and share your bowhunting experience with the other bowhunters.
That's kinda what I was getting at.:cool:

[Bow Walker]

Yes I'm sure, but I'm also sure I need stats to satisfy everyone - somebody needs to come up with some $ and study this (properly). If I were active in a bowhunting organization I'd be pushing to put the $ up for this.

In studies that I've read bowhunting isn't considered a primary recruitment tool and so far as retention goes nobody's looked into it - it's all about additional participation, but the question is: who's participating?????

I think it would be very interesting to understand the motivations and the types of hunters who are pursuing bow only opportunities and what that means for recruitment and retention in BC.

Until then a pretty darn good guess is all I can give.:biggrin:
G G...I gave up (sold) my guns to concentrate on bow only hunting. It was a conscious choice. My motivation(s) are purely altruistic - I relish the challenge of being able to tag a game animal that I took with my bow.

[Bow Walker]

no way onesock . i would like to get my coachs cert. But courses are my biggest pi$$ off in life . People seem to think the cure to all problems is another course.
Onesock - what's involved in getting to be an instructor for the I.B.E.P.?

[J_T]

Yes I'm sure, but I'm also sure I need stats to satisfy everyone - somebody needs to come up with some $ and study this (properly). If I were active in a bowhunting organization I'd be pushing to put the $ up for this.

In studies that I've read bowhunting isn't considered a primary recruitment tool and so far as retention goes nobody's looked into it - it's all about additional participation, but the question is: who's participating?????

I think it would be very interesting to understand the motivations and the types of hunters who are pursuing bow only opportunities and what that means for recruitment and retention in BC.

Until then a pretty darn good guess is all I can give.:biggrin: Hey GG, I'm not dissin ya, just razzin ya. We're in this together however you want to mix it. But don't dis my comment about how many rifle hunters want to be bowhunters first.:lol:

You don't have to pull stats for me. I'm the philosophical type. I believe that stats can say whatever you want them to say, therefore they actually lack an element of credibility with me. No offence.

But perhaps when we look at recruitment and retention and appropriate wildlife management, it is not a one solution fits all. (I know we know this, but want to just make that statement) perhaps, the approach through the rifle is the most effective recruitment "philosophy" and bowhunting has a greater impact on hunter retention.

We've said it a million times on here, hunting "tends" to be competitive. We also know many hunt to satisfy a social camraderie need. I saw Huntwriter say that if a bowhunting course became mandatory he'd go back to guns. I would say, that if we lose bowhunting opportunity I won't hunt. I know you have challenged me on that before, but guns just don't interest me.

[Will]

IBEP is mandatory in many jurisdictions. Why? Perhaps because it works to solve issues or problems. There are lots of solutions, education is a key solution.
That's why I'm wondering about the Need for a "Mandated Bowhunting Course" and where this "Need" has come from ?

I certainly have not heard about ALL these issues or problems ?
Mostly I hear alot of hearsay and rumours regarding bad or unethical Bowhunters....yada yada yada....surely someone must have some documentation as to this widespread problem ?

Believe me if there was CLEARLY a need for Educating Bowhunters to stop the rampant wounding and careless Bowhunting going on out there I'd be all for it !


Will...(and H W).....with respect :smile:......you two seem to think that there is a deep, dark conspiracy among archers and/or bowhunters. It seems from your replies that you believe that there is a segment of government and a majority of archers who are hell bent to get something, (anything) made mandatory so the there can be revenue generated from it for the public coffers. Am I wrong? I just can't swallow that without a big gulp of something, (anything). :shock:

No concpiracies here... but because someone seeks more info regarding BOTH sides of an issue it doesn't necessarily make them against one side or the other......from what I've heard the IBEP is a great Course and well worth someone's efforts to take it.....if they choose.

I'm just not convinced there is really any NEED nor evidence to conclude that a Mandatory Course is warranted, and that was the point of this whole thread......Wasn't it ? :smile:

[J_T]

Onesock - what's involved in getting to be an instructor for the I.B.E.P.? BowWalker, there are basically two ways to become an instructor.

1) There is a person designated as a "Master" instructor. I'm not sure if Ted Kennedy (Bowhunting VP with the BCAA) is a Master instructor but I'll ask him. The Master instructor puts on an instructors course.

2) be a person of good character, selected to assist in carrying out courses. You must have taken the IBEP yourself. Upon assessment after assisting with a certain number of courses you may qualify to instruct.

[Onesock]

Bow Walker as JT has said. However myself and 3 other guys from the Island have helped with 1/2 dozen courses and no one can tell us how to turn this into being an instructor. Hopefully JT can get answers from Ted Kennedy. In all fairness to Ted we really haven't pushed him on this issue. I am sure we would get our instructors certificate if we were at the course in Vic, however I cannot make it.

[J_T]

My apologies for monopolizing some of this.


I certainly have not heard about ALL these issues or problems ?
Mostly I hear alot of hearsay and rumours regarding bad or unethical Bowhunters....yada yada yada....surely someone must have some documentation as to this widespread problem ?

Believe me if there was CLEARLY a need for Educating Bowhunters to stop the rampant wounding and careless Bowhunting going on out there I'd be all for it !
Bowhunters aren't bad and most aren't unethical. We're human. Human's are generally quality individuals subject to making mistakes. Doesn't make us unethical.

The interesting thing is that bow wounding in studies done is less than rifle wounding, if you also consider there are more rifle hunters out there, you can conclude that rifles wound more actual animals.

But for whatever reason, CO's want to address bow wounding and they believe a part of it comes from what we call the "last minute bowhunter". It seems most arrow/bolt wounded animals that succumb suffer due to two things. No penetration, and poorly placed shots. We might conclude that those two concerns are the result of longer shots, where the arrow/bolt loses its energy and where the animal has simply moved and the arrow/bolt intersects the body in a location other than the chosen spot.

[Bow Walker]

That's why I'm wondering about the Need for a "Mandated Bowhunting Course" and where this "Need" has come from ?

I'm just not convinced there is really any NEED nor evidence to conclude that a Mandatory Course is warranted, and that was the point of this whole thread......Wasn't it ? :smile:
Will, The point of the thread - for me, at least - was to continue the discussion about IBEP as it relates to Bowhunting and also to the recruitment/retaining of new and/or more hunters in general.

I think that you're confusing the "far-lookers" (who see the course eventually becoming mandatory) with one ,perhaps two, individuals who appear to be promoting the making of the course mandatory n'est pas?

I just happen to believe that it will eventually end up morphing into something that will be mandatory. Things have to change with the way hunting, in general, is regulated but it's a slow process, made even slower by those "up there" being very careful and thinking the repercussions through before applying broad, sweeping changes Willy Nilly.

BTW - love the discussion and all the differing points of view even though we are all in general agreement.

[horshur]

long winded bunch of guys.
Them last minute bowhunters can be real easy to avoid....can the special bow seasons.

And while you are at it....manditory use of blood trailing dog's and a handler on site seens you all are so worried about public perception. What do you think about that? Europe countries are already there.

[Bowzone_Mikey]

long winded bunch of guys.
Them last minute bowhunters can be real easy to avoid....can the special bow seasons.

And while you are at it....manditory use of blood trailing dog's and a handler on site seens you all are so worried about public perception. What do you think about that? Europe countries are already there.

I am not sure this is in jest or not .... one of the draw backs backs about internet forums ...

that wont solve a thing ...its allready been mentioned that some guys buy their rifles a week before the season .... how many hunters ... dust off the rifle from last year and just go out to shoot something?????
so while yer at it ... Can the youth season ... oh to hell with it lets just make nice to all the tree huggin hippy dope smokin liberals here in BC and cancel hunting season totally ....
(that was a suggestion made in jest ....)

seriously tho ....
the government is allready involved with that stupid little card in you wallet called your BC hunters # .... what makes the CORE program so special .... oh a little bit about animal ID ... the biggest section was freakin Bird ID ...I told my instructor that I have never hunted a Bird other than Turkey in my life ...and have no desire to exept perhaps grouse ...even then I have to be mighty bored .... he just kinda laughed ..and said ya its kinda silly that way aint it... I took my PAL exam the same so I didnt have to do the CORE practical ... but even the PAL practical exam is wishy washy ... so I can ID a bullet ... so I can ID a rifle ... so I can safely cross a fence without shooting myself ....
there was no hunting techniques that I recall in core ...there wasnt even any feild dressing literature that I recall ... I could give a crap if it took 20 little balls of lead to make a certain weight and thats how the 20 gauge shotgun (or any gauge shot gun except a .410) got its name ... Ya that info will be usefull to me in the feild as an educated hunter ...might be usefull in a game of trivial pursuit tho .....

at least the IBEP program deals with shot placement ... how to feild dress ...ya not alot of the old school guys will get alot of out of it .. but newbies sure will ....alot of the rifle converts will get alot out of the shot placement segment ...as most people with rifles will shoot a quartering 2 critter right through the shoulder .... not really that doable with a bow .... and alot of last minute guys or rifle converts dont realize that right away ... Trust me I know ... I took a rifle convert hunting a few years ago ... he was proficiant with a bow ... when the time came he put it right into the shoulder to blow apart its heart ... no penitration ... It was a long day of stalking after that ... but he got another shot into its boiler room while it was bedded ... he now knows that a bullet and an arrow wont do the same thing .... Of course i wanted to educate him by hand after that day but thats a differant story ....

My point is the IBEP provides more info that the CORE ever thought about in relation to bowhunting ..... I want to see the Gov stay out of it as much as possible as well but they wont be completely away from it ....

Maybe if BC ever comes out of the stone age and computerizes the licence system an idea might present itself....
But untill then I firmly believe that we knowledgable bowhunters owe it it to our sport to take the newbies under our wing and teach them ....

That said I aint saying I am all that knowledgable ... I been hard into archery for a whopping 7 years now ... But I had some great teachers ...that took me by the hand ...and spoonfed me untill I learned ... there is people out there that have doing archery longer than I have been alive (I am 31 by the way) and i love picking their brains about hunting technique ... bowyer tech etc......

i threw out the idea about the club thing in my previous post in hopes that some newbie will like the idea of the club and join up too ;) as well as expoxing that newbie to 3D

[Will]

Will, The point of the thread - for me, at least - was to continue the discussion about IBEP as it relates to Bowhunting and also to the recruitment/retaining of new and/or more hunters in general.
This thread for me and many others from the start, took towards a discussion about Mandatory IBEP for Bowhunters.........or you and I are reading different threads ?:wink:

ALL of my comments have been directed towards my Concerns regarding this....nothing more.

I've said and have many others IBEP is a Great course and should be promoted as such....I just don't think making it Mandatory will change anything other then discourage even more participants in an already shrinking activity. This troubles me:(

Just As I feared there appears to be NO bonafide evidence that any of these socalled Archery hunting concerns are valid nor do they occur in any significant numbers to warrant giving this any more thought.

Yet as Hunters we will continue to ignore REAL problems with the existing system and again focus on targeting ourselves and developing more regulations and crap to solve problems that don't exist......IMO.

That will be my last comment to this topic......I've got some arrows to Fletch:wink:

[huntwriter]

J_T - I saw Huntwriter say that if a bowhunting course became mandatory he'd go back to guns. I would say, that if we lose bowhunting opportunity I won't hunt. I know you have challenged me on that before, but guns just don't interest me.

If bowhunting education would become mandatory (but we established that it is not about mandatory education here, not yet anyway) and I would have to prove, after all the years I bowhunt, that I am proficient enough I rather would give up.

I became a bowhunter many years ago when I lived in Illinois were from October 1st to January 15th with a break or two is all bowhunting. The reason is that Illinois hunting is all urban and suburban. I love bowhunting, it’s something I have been dreaming about doing since my childhood in Switzerland but first and foremost I am hunter. As such I also hunt with rifles, muzzleloaders, shotguns and slug guns, but given the choice I rather bowhunt.

I just don’t believe in any mandatory course because I don't believe for a minute that it can TEACH anything in a 40+ hour time frame. Plus as research has shown very clearly it is the #1 cause why people stay away from hunting. This is one of the reasons why BC in the new hunter recruitment proposal wants to permit young hunters to go hunting without having made a C.O.R.E. course first.

Having said all that, a non-mandatory I.B.E.P. or any other hunting course can be a great tool to promote and attract new hunters young and old.
A good friend of mien and outdoor writer stages every year a 3 day camp. This camp is so popular, because of the activities he offers, that they actually have to turn people away every year. The same happens with the "Camp for Kidz" staged annually by Ted Nugent. The reason why these education camps are so popular is because these two man offer excitement, thrill, fun and lots of activities rather than just a dry, boring classroom type scenario. That is the type of hunter education course I fully endorse. And that is the type of course I have in mind offering ones I have my C.O.R.E. instructor license. In order to attract folks you HAVE to offer fun and activities. Make them an active part of the course rather than degrade them to passive listeners with a book in front of their noses.

I believe strongly that one reason why my seminars are so popular is for the same reason. I make the audience an active part of my seminars not just passive listeners. People want to be entertained while learning at the same time.

[Will]

huntwriter,
Okay this is my last comment........:lol:
I believe you and I are on the same train of thought regarding this...I'm just not as well versed as yourself ;)
Hunt Fun Folks ! :cool:


If bowhunting education would become mandatory (but we established that it is not about mandatory education here, not yet anyway) and I would have to prove, after all the years I bowhunt, that I am proficient enough I rather would give up.

I became a bowhunter many years ago when I lived in Illinois were from October 1st to January 15th with a break or two is all bowhunting. The reason is that Illinois hunting is all urban and suburban. I love bowhunting, it’s something I have been dreaming about doing since my childhood in Switzerland but first and foremost I am hunter. As such I also hunt with rifles, muzzleloaders, shotguns and slug guns, but given the choice I rather bowhunt.

I just don’t believe in any mandatory course because I don't believe for a minute that it can TEACH anything in a 40+ hour time frame. Plus as research has shown very clearly it is the #1 cause why people stay away from hunting. This is one of the reasons why BC in the new hunter recruitment proposal wants to permit young hunters to go hunting without having made a C.O.R.E. course first.

Having said all that, a non-mandatory I.B.E.P. or any other hunting course can be a great tool to promote and attract new hunters young and old.
A good friend of mien and outdoor writer stages every year a 3 day camp. This camp is so popular, because of the activities he offers, that they actually have to turn people away every year. The same happens with the "Camp for Kidz" staged annually by Ted Nugent. The reason why these education camps are so popular is because these two man offer excitement, thrill, fun and lots of activities rather than just a dry, boring classroom type scenario. That is the type of hunter education course I fully endorse. And that is the type of course I have in mind offering ones I have my C.O.R.E. instructor license. In order to attract folks you HAVE to offer fun and activities. Make them an active part of the course rather than degrade them to passive listeners with a book in front of their noses.

I believe strongly that one reason why my seminars are so popular is for the same reason. I make the audience an active part of my seminars not just passive listeners. People want to be entertained while learning at the same time.

[huntwriter]

I am not sure this is in jest or not .... one of the draw backs backs about internet forums ...

that wont solve a thing ...its allready been mentioned that some guys buy their rifles a week before the season .... how many hunters ... dust off the rifle from last year and just go out to shoot something?????
so while yer at it ... Can the youth season ... oh to hell with it lets just make nice to all the tree huggin hippy dope smokin liberals here in BC and cancel hunting season totally ....
(that was a suggestion made in jest ....)

seriously tho ....
the government is allready involved with that stupid little card in you wallet called your BC hunters # .... what makes the CORE program so special .... oh a little bit about animal ID ... the biggest section was freakin Bird ID ...I told my instructor that I have never hunted a Bird other than Turkey in my life ...and have no desire to exept perhaps grouse ...even then I have to be mighty bored .... he just kinda laughed ..and said ya its kinda silly that way aint it... I took my PAL exam the same so I didnt have to do the CORE practical ... but even the PAL practical exam is wishy washy ... so I can ID a bullet ... so I can ID a rifle ... so I can safely cross a fence without shooting myself ....
there was no hunting techniques that I recall in core ...there wasnt even any feild dressing literature that I recall ... I could give a crap if it took 20 little balls of lead to make a certain weight and thats how the 20 gauge shotgun (or any gauge shot gun except a .410) got its name ... Ya that info will be usefull to me in the feild as an educated hunter ...might be usefull in a game of trivial pursuit tho .....

at least the IBEP program deals with shot placement ... how to feild dress ...ya not alot of the old school guys will get alot of out of it .. but newbies sure will ....alot of the rifle converts will get alot out of the shot placement segment ...as most people with rifles will shoot a quartering 2 critter right through the shoulder .... not really that doable with a bow .... and alot of last minute guys or rifle converts dont realize that right away ... Trust me I know ... I took a rifle convert hunting a few years ago ... he was proficiant with a bow ... when the time came he put it right into the shoulder to blow apart its heart ... no penitration ... It was a long day of stalking after that ... but he got another shot into its boiler room while it was bedded ... he now knows that a bullet and an arrow wont do the same thing .... Of course i wanted to educate him by hand after that day but thats a differant story ....

My point is the IBEP provides more info that the CORE ever thought about in relation to bowhunting ..... I want to see the Gov stay out of it as much as possible as well but they wont be completely away from it ....

Maybe if BC ever comes out of the stone age and computerizes the licence system an idea might present itself....
But untill then I firmly believe that we knowledgable bowhunters owe it it to our sport to take the newbies under our wing and teach them ....

That said I aint saying I am all that knowledgable ... I been hard into archery for a whopping 7 years now ... But I had some great teachers ...that took me by the hand ...and spoonfed me untill I learned ... there is people out there that have doing archery longer than I have been alive (I am 31 by the way) and i love picking their brains about hunting technique ... bowyer tech etc......

i threw out the idea about the club thing in my previous post in hopes that some newbie will like the idea of the club and join up too ;) as well as expoxing that newbie to 3D

Well said!!! Lots of good points that are right up my alley too.:cool:

[J_T]

Will, I won't expect a response, however, Ted (your avatar) is a bit of an icon to many of the guys I hunt with. We rock around the fire to Craveman and Tooth Fang and Claw. Some of them have their arm guards signed by him. I saw him headline Scorpions and Van Halen once. Come on, at some point we have to find common ground.8-)

I'm sorry you feel I (and others) can't provide you with the stats you are looking for. I'm just not a stats guy. They have their place, but I don't put too much stock in them. GG must be working for the wrong team or he'd have plastered them at us.:cool:

[Bow Walker]

Well, well. Will, H W, B Z M, J_T, et al...we've been bandying this topic around for 4 pages now. I can now honestly say that I value the input of each and every contributor in this thread, especially the above named.

This last page has produced great ideas from everyone. Ideas that have definite possibilities of success - if only the powers that be are or will listen.

I heartily agree with making any course "interactive". The more the participants get involved the more is retained. I haven't any proof of that but it is so apparent that I think anyone would agree.

[bsa30-06]

Well i see know that we have dropped the mandatory issue that we all agree that hunter education and the IBEP program are valuable tools in promoting responsible hunting.There have been some good thoughts and ideas in this thread.I guess know its time for bowhunting groups, archers,instructors, and the students themselves to get the info about the program out thru word of mouth.Someone suggested advertising the program in the hunting regs, i like this idea.Perhaps a poster or info could be put up in some of the archery shops.Advertising and promoting the IBEP course will be the key issue know.Excellent thread and well done guys keeping it on track.

[huntwriter]

Bow Walker – This has been, still is, a very interesting discussion with lots of good points made from both sides. Above all everybody kept it civil and polite so far. This is how progress is made and I hope it continues along this path.:-)

If our hunting heritage is to survive into the next generation then we all have to pull together, what we have done here, and brainstorm how we best can achieve that very important goal.

By doing this we eventually will come up with something that works and is agreeable by all.

[Gateholio]

long winded bunch of guys.
Them last minute bowhunters can be real easy to avoid....can the special bow seasons.

e.


That would do it, 100% for sure.

[GoatGuy]

Hey GG, I'm not dissin ya, just razzin ya. We're in this together however you want to mix it. But don't dis my comment about how many rifle hunters want to be bowhunters first.:lol:

You don't have to pull stats for me. I'm the philosophical type. I believe that stats can say whatever you want them to say, therefore they actually lack an element of credibility with me. No offence.

But perhaps when we look at recruitment and retention and appropriate wildlife management, it is not a one solution fits all. (I know we know this, but want to just make that statement) perhaps, the approach through the rifle is the most effective recruitment "philosophy" and bowhunting has a greater impact on hunter retention.

We've said it a million times on here, hunting "tends" to be competitive. We also know many hunt to satisfy a social camraderie need. I saw Huntwriter say that if a bowhunting course became mandatory he'd go back to guns. I would say, that if we lose bowhunting opportunity I won't hunt. I know you have challenged me on that before, but guns just don't interest me.


Whatever it is it needs to be measured - philosophy and results are two very different concepts (often opposed). Personal anecdotal evidence from any of us doesn't really contribute much to the future of hunting.

Relying on bowhunting being the fastest growing segment simply won't cut it. The only way bowhunting will proliferate is if it's a recruitment and retention tool. The only way to know it's a R&R tool is to prove it. The results in the states have been less than what I would call supportive of the theory.

If bowhunting proved to be a usefull R&R tool I would certainly support it. Until then mandatory courses and heresay aren't gonna get us to where we need to be for the future of hunting.

As I've said before hunters are often their worst enemies - this obviously isn't with intent but I think it will be damaging nonetheless.

[GoatGuy]

I'm sorry you feel I (and others) can't provide you with the stats you are looking for. I'm just not a stats guy. They have their place, but I don't put too much stock in them. GG must be working for the wrong team or he'd have plastered them at us.:cool:


No stats for BC (obviously :-P) - from some CO's this an issue with public perception and wounding BUT that's education (not mandatory education). From managers the question is what does bowhunting do for the future of hunting and what is the potential of bowhunting? That's the real question that should be answered (not philisopichally either).

Urban hunting with a bow is common practice in the US and is socially accepted. In BC we try to hide it. There is far more opportunity in residential/urban areas for bowhunters where crop depredation occurs for than anywhere else but it has never been pursued and there seems to be an aversion to it for some reason. I'd go after it but I don't have the time and also believe there are far more potentially successful ways of increasing hunter numbers.

I've never been one to discuss mortality rates with bowhunting - I have read studies that have terrible methodology but aside from that bows are very capable of harvesting animals efficiently no different than firearms. It's never been much of a discussion topic for me.

[J_T]

Whatever it is it needs to be measured - philosophy and results are two very different concepts (often opposed). Personal anecdotal evidence from any of us doesn't really contribute much to the future of hunting.

Relying on bowhunting being the fastest growing segment simply won't cut it. The only way bowhunting will proliferate is if it's a recruitment and retention tool. The only way to know it's a R&R tool is to prove it. The results in the states have been less than what I would call supportive of the theory.

If bowhunting proved to be a usefull R&R tool I would certainly support it. Until then mandatory courses and heresay aren't gonna get us to where we need to be for the future of hunting.

As I've said before hunters are often their worst enemies - this obviously isn't with intent but I think it will be damaging nonetheless.


Originally Posted by horshur http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/showthread.php?p=225701#post225701)
long winded bunch of guys.
Them last minute bowhunters can be real easy to avoid....can the special bow seasons.

e.

That would do it, 100% for sure.

Here's the thing. I thought we were in it together. As hunters. Each piece, each component part doing its part to contribute to the whole. I guess I was wrong, it's rifle versus bow. My mistake. I'll keep that in mind.

But why is, bowhunting the fastest growing segment?

In many cases, something only needs to be measured if it's a revenue item. But not necessarily so if the intangibles are there. Numbers are a measurement of something past, something that has happened. Philosophy represents an uncharted vision of a possible future state. Manage the risk and chart that course.

I'm not so sure it's all about "hunting" numbers. I thought the Government had an initiative around the quality of life. Young people. The benefits of "Bowhunting" to young people the concept of an active outdoor lifestyle, can only be measured in how our youth mature and act in society. If we change one youth, if we make life better for one person it's a success.

If you want to play stats, then hunting both bowhunting and rifle hunting is likely doomed because your planning with known quantities and not with possibilities.

[GoatGuy]

But why is, bowhunting the fastest growing segment?



Exactly. That's a question I've been looking for some results on for quite some time.

Bowhunting's currently being sold as a recruitment tool - what's the evidence?

It's not about what it is now it's about current motivations, R&R and potential of the activity. It's about the future of hunting, not a rifle vs bow debate. Stratifying the hunting population might be the way to go, then again it might not. Someone needs to do the research.

I think this would be something hugely beneficial for all jurisdictions not just BC. We won't know until we actually give it a shot (ptp) and study it - hiding from research and taking stabs at solutions is what got us in the mess we have today. This is something that bowhunters should be pursuing. Intangibles are easily qualified and measured if the research is half decent. Research is something you can rely on. Then there's no convincing or opinions. The facts are the facts.

Everybody has their opinion on how things should work but nobody has facts and as a result everybody believes their version (that's passion). It would be nice if someone sat down, broke things down and came up with some decent research to see the potential of bowhunting in BC.

That's what I'd be interested in - really surprised no one's pursued this.

I've done my share of bowhunting and seen more than a few critters hit the ground from a bow however I don't believe it's the tool that will take hunting into the next century.

Having said that if it was shown to be an effective tool for R&R I'd support it 100%. I'm not in it for bow or rifle, I'm in it for hunting.

[horshur]

JT---I'm not negative towards the bow seasons just suggesting a solution towards your concerns regarding the "Last minute bowhunter" who is trying to take part in an antlerless elk season so buy's a crossbow the weekend before....that privilige "just" for stick flingers is the temptation.
The special seasons may be why it is the "Fastest growing segment"
I really doubt it is the same here in BC though.
When the seasons first came in I will tell you that.....just about everyone had a bow that we hunted with however.....not one bowhunts now.
We were just chasing an opportunity which new regulations has minimized.
Lastly. The one friend I have who does bowhunt managed to take a small buck labour day weekend in region 3 while on summer holidays. He will not do that again for.......no annual October hunt that year with me he was tagged out.

[Bow Walker]

...Bowhunting's currently being sold as a recruitment tool - what's the evidence?
Now that's a curious statement. GG who is selling bowhunting in this fashion? I wasn't aware that bowhunting was being used as a "recruitment tool". Not that I'm totally aware anyway...:redface:

My thoughts on urban bowhunting as a preventative/crop protection tool? I fully support the idea - the MoE doesn't, unfortunately. Here in the greater Victoria area there is a huge population of urban deer, and it's growing every year. No stats in support of that statement, but they're not necessary. I've seen the evidence. Anyone can see the physical evidence.

I've also seen the dead deer on the roadways and shoulders after being struck by vehicles.

I fully support controlled urban bowhunting. That, again, is a subject for a different thread.

[Gateholio]

Here's the thing. I thought we were in it together. As hunters. Each piece, each component part doing its part to contribute to the whole. I guess I was wrong, it's rifle versus bow. My mistake. I'll keep that in mind.
.

I have heard so many damn times here on HBC from bowhunters about hwo they don't like people buying a bow or crossbow jsut to take advantage of a special season, how these guys are a problem, how we shouldn't allow crossbows because of this, etc etc.

Presumably, if you removed the incentive for this, you wouldn't have these issues.

[huntwriter]

I have been an advocate for suburban deer hunting for many years. Many states in America use bowhunting as an effective and safe tool to control suburban deer populations. Some of the fears mentioned here of deer running around with arrows sticking out of them or piling up in peoples gardens are almost unheard of in the USA. By and large the suburban populations welcome bowhunting to get rid of the deer that eat their flower gardens and cause havoc on the roads.

I have hunted many suburban parks in Illinois were I could see the highway from my treestand on one side and houses on the other. Never had a shot deer run to the houses or yo the street. Shooting distances on average are less than 20 yards, which makes for good shot placement and pass through shots. Hit deer generally seek timber and bushes not the open spaces.

[huntwriter]

I have heard so many damn times here on HBC from bowhunters about hwo they don't like people buying a bow or crossbow jsut to take advantage of a special season, how these guys are a problem, how we shouldn't allow crossbows because of this, etc etc.

Presumably, if you removed the incentive for this, you wouldn't have these issues.
You make some good points here. I too think that many bowhunters, not all, think of themselves as some sort of elite and thus find it hard to accept opportunistic bowhunters and crossbow hunters.

If we as a bowhunting community want to grow, and grow strong, then we need to be open minded and welcome everybody into our ranks no matter what the reasons for choosing bowhunting are. Heck, I once was an opportunistic bowhunter because it gave me a much longer season where I lived. It is here where bowhunting organizations could lead as shining light by accepting crossbows as archery equipment rather than bashing it. The I.B.E.P. could include crossbows in their course if they not already do.

The I.B.E.P. could make a deal with bow manufactures including an I.B.E.P. course voucher with each bow purchase. Similar deals can be made on a local level with individual bow dealers. I see lots of opportunities to promote the I.B.E.P. but it involves footwork and knocking on doors.

[J_T]

I have heard so many damn times here on HBC from bowhunters about hwo they don't like people buying a bow or crossbow jsut to take advantage of a special season, how these guys are a problem, how we shouldn't allow crossbows because of this, etc etc.

Presumably, if you removed the incentive for this, you wouldn't have these issues. Yup, you have. But that is such a blunt solution. This thread finally was able to manage emotion sufficiently enough to actually have a good discussion on the topic.

We all have emotion, and when we feel emotion, what's the first thing we do? We point the finger in anger. But it isn't the guys hunting, or the weapon that is the issue. This thread addressed the, "what happens when" issue. It's like so many activities in life. We think we know how to go about it, so we do our best. The outcome isn't always the one we had envisioned. (I'm pretty sure I can drink and drive:lol:)

The "last minute bowhunter" isn't a person or a weapon, it's a situation. No one wants to prevent someone from trying something new or take advantage of a perceived opportunity.

All hunters are opportunistic. Give (most of) us something we think we have favourable odds for success on and we're going to take it on and enjoy the journey.

Whether bowhunting is a recruitment tool or not, whether Government wants to see it as one or not is uncertain. If we/Gov cared about bowhunting, why don't they ask about weapon's choice on the Hunter Questionnaire? (We've asked two Minister's and two F&W Director's to include that on the questionnaire. The number of hunter days such as the ones that GG quotes are likely horribly scewed by the inclusion of bowhunter days (not harvesting) increasing the number of days to harvest. Sound wildlife management starts with better data than we collect.

Bowhunting is a legitimate activity, a way of life and a state of mind for many. It is but one part of hunting and bowhunters should respect all forms of hunting and conversely other weapon's users should provide the respect to bowhunting that it deserves.

[willyqbc]

I have heard so many damn times here on HBC from bowhunters about hwo they don't like people buying a bow or crossbow jsut to take advantage of a special season, how these guys are a problem, how we shouldn't allow crossbows because of this, etc etc.

Presumably, if you removed the incentive for this, you wouldn't have these issues.


I don't think the point is that people have a problem with hunters going out and buying a bow or crossbow to participate in the archery seasons....that is what I for one want to see happen. Thats the growth in archery I want to see. The problem that seems very common when a new exciting opportunity opens up for archery is that far too many (by no means all) folks go out and buy that equipment just before the season and practice with it 3 times and figure they are good to go. If we had someone come on here and say they have never shot a gun before but they went out to the range once and sighted in so now they are ready to go hunting, very few of us here would find that acceptable.
Now, in my opinion the reason the X-bows tend to take the heat is that people seem to feel confident very quickly because of the "rifle feel" they have shooting them. But just because they "feel" confident does not in any way mean they fully understand the weapon and its capabilities....as they say, you don't know what you don't know until someone tells you. That is were the value of an IBEP course really is.

Just to be clear, I fully support X-bows in the archery seasons, they are legal archery tackle so go ahead and use them and welcome to the archery fraternity! But just like any weapon you choose, make sure you learn what you need to know to be proficient before you go hunting.

as always, just my opinion
Chris

[Gateholio]

It may be a blunt solution, but so is forcing someone to take and pay for yet another course before they are "qualified" to go kill something.

Either option will be a tough sell....

[J_T]

Just to be clear, I fully support X-bows in the archery seasons, they are legal archery tackle so go ahead and use them and welcome to the archery fraternity! But just like any weapon you choose, make sure you learn what you need to know to be proficient before you go hunting.
Agree completely.

[Coyote]

As one who has been around bowhunting for nearly half a century I can say with confidence that IBEP is a damn good course and probably the best investment in bowhunting a new bowhunter can make. I'd have given my eye teeth to have had it when I was starting. Not only do you learn from the instructor but the participants learn from each other. And there is a lot of learning goin' on. Talk to people that have taken it. Most if not all will tell you it was well worth it.

'yote

[Bow Walker]

We're all agreed on that point. http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/4/4_1_10v.gif (http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001_ZSYYYYYYJOCA)

[Gateholio]

As one who has been around bowhunting for nearly half a century I can say with confidence that IBEP is a damn good course and probably the best investment in bowhunting a new bowhunter can make. I'd have given my eye teeth to have had it when I was starting. Not only do you learn from the instructor but the participants learn from each other. And there is a lot of learning goin' on. Talk to people that have taken it. Most if not all will tell you it was well worth it.

'yote


I don't doubt that one bit! Knowledge is always a good thing.

However, if a seasoned bowhunter (like you) or a guy that uses bows off and on (like me) or a new hunter that is interested in bowhunting is forced to take a seminar......I bet it will be counterproductive to adding bowhunters to the ranks..

Lots of people say to me "Hey, I want to get a gun, learn to shoot, maybe hunt" And when I tell them the steps to get a PAL and then CORE...they say "That's alot of trouble and money. I'll do it if convenient" (or words to that effect)

Which essentially translates into "If I REALLLLLLY want it, I'll do it.But it seems like a hassle, so maybe I won't."

[huntwriter]

I don't doubt that one bit! Knowledge is always a good thing.

However, if a seasoned bowhunter (like you) or a guy that uses bows off and on (like me) or a new hunter that is interested in bowhunting is forced to take a seminar......I bet it will be counterproductive to adding bowhunters to the ranks..

Lots of people say to me "Hey, I want to get a gun, learn to shoot, maybe hunt" And when I tell them the steps to get a PAL and then CORE...they say "That's alot of trouble and money. I'll do it if convenient" (or words to that effect)

Which essentially translates into "If I REALLLLLLY want it, I'll do it.But it seems like a hassle, so maybe I won't."

According to a survey made in the states over 60% agree with your statement. Interestingly many of the surveyed people wondered why hunters are forced to take an education course while fishers do not have to take mandatory courses.

[GoatGuy]

Now that's a curious statement. GG who is selling bowhunting in this fashion? I wasn't aware that bowhunting was being used as a "recruitment tool". Not that I'm totally aware anyway...:redface:


There are a few bowhunters who are selling bowhunting as a recruitment tool.



My thoughts on urban bowhunting as a preventative/crop protection tool? I fully support the idea - the MoE doesn't, unfortunately. Here in the greater Victoria area there is a huge population of urban deer, and it's growing every year. No stats in support of that statement, but they're not necessary. I've seen the evidence. Anyone can see the physical evidence.

I fully support controlled urban bowhunting. That, again, is a subject for a different thread.

MoE would be much more inclined to support it if bowhunters pursued the opportunity. I see this as an immense opportunity in most parts of BC. I would equate to extremely localized opportunity, with a high chance of success. It would also allow the dispersion of hunters and encourage those who maybe don't have access to supplies or transportation that other hunters have. This to me is a no brainer. Hiding hunting won't make it popular.

[J_T]

There are a few bowhunters who are selling bowhunting as a recruitment tool.
Well, depending on your perception, I suspect I am guilty of this. I have often said, bowhunting can be a recruitment tool. I didn't think I was "selling" it though. Well, why can't it be? If you want to sell the lifestyle of hunting, you market it in every fashion you can. Camraderie, rifle, bow, Youth, Senior, whatever. Why hold back?


MoE would be much more inclined to support it if bowhunters pursued the opportunity. There are existing bow only opportunities in rural areas. Bowhunters have a concern about the public perception. How the Canadian social system and the USA social system perceive this activity are very different. IF our BC Government could take a stronger position of support on this topic, bowhunters would pursue it more.

There is a reason for these seasons. To reduce the population in a safe manner and many hunters tend to use the opportunity to bait deer, thus drawing more in rather than reduce a population, and they wait for the bigger bucks, not simply taking deer out of the population.

We aren't opposed to pursuing this. In fact we have made reference to the Community "Interface areas" as good potential. The rifle community don't mind us hunting deer in Interface areas but they sure don't want us hunting elk there.

Something to consider: If - given the opportunity to hunt rural interface animasl -bowhunters don't handle themselves appropriately there is increased risk for negative exposure which would ultimately result in Government being forced (by the non hunter) to take a more firm stance "against" bowhunting here in BC.

I propose we start with the deer that reside in Victoria.

[GoatGuy]

Whether bowhunting is a recruitment tool or not, whether Government wants to see it as one or not is uncertain. If we/Gov cared about bowhunting, why don't they ask about weapon's choice on the Hunter Questionnaire? (We've asked two Minister's and two F&W Director's to include that on the questionnaire. The number of hunter days such as the ones that GG quotes are likely horribly scewed by the inclusion of bowhunter days (not harvesting) increasing the number of days to harvest. Sound wildlife management starts with better data than we collect.

The problem is no one actually knows. Pointing the finger at government or F&W branch isn't going to achieve anything. Asking about weapon's choice on the hunter questionnaire isn't a solution, merely a crutch that won't provide what is needed (motivations and factors that affect the bowhunting experience). You need to know the real reasons before you can come up with solutions. A check on a hunting license and a weapon's choice does not provide any kind of answer.

It extremely easy to mine data based on the time of the year (dates) and the resulting season. Harvest stats are affected by several factors; however, so long as you have the big picture consistency of time periods explain change. The stats are infact consistent and not 'horribly' skewed as most bow seasons have been consistent and the change in participation is easily calculated.

Someone needs to put something together that can be supported and come up with some real answers to the questions that have been asked. From there solutions will come much easier. This could indefinitely include the acceptance or potential for education through IBEP. The motivations of the bowhunting population are really unknown. We can all talk about why we do it, but at the end of the day this board only represents the avid not the every day. This is really something that should be pursued. In regards to bowhunter education you might find that the transition to efficiency with new bowhunters is only a year before they develop a social support group. Then you can identify a message that targets that cohort. In short, what I'm trying to say is the solution might be much easier to come by than what is being suggested, however until the real problem is identified the solution will not be beneficial to bowhunting. I'm surprised at the hesitance to support this kind of a project. It's something I would support.

[GoatGuy]

Well, depending on your perception, I suspect I am guilty of this. I have often said, bowhunting can be a recruitment tool. I didn't think I was "selling" it though. Well, why can't it be? If you want to sell the lifestyle of hunting, you market it in every fashion you can. Camraderie, rifle, bow, Youth, Senior, whatever. Why hold back?

Nobody said it can't. I'm more inclined to know as much about it as I can and going from there. Currently we only have opinions.



There are existing bow only opportunities in rural areas. Bowhunters have a concern about the public perception. How the Canadian social system and the USA social system perceive this activity are very different. IF our BC Government could take a stronger position of support on this topic, bowhunters would pursue it more.

There is a reason for these seasons. To reduce the population in a safe manner and many hunters tend to use the opportunity to bait deer, thus drawing more in rather than reduce a population, and they wait for the bigger bucks, not simply taking deer out of the population.

We aren't opposed to pursuing this. In fact we have made reference to the Community "Interface areas" as good potential. The rifle community don't mind us hunting deer in Interface areas but they sure don't want us hunting elk there.

Something to consider: If - given the opportunity to hunt rural interface animasl -bowhunters don't handle themselves appropriately there is increased risk for negative exposure which would ultimately result in Government being forced (by the non hunter) to take a more firm stance "against" bowhunting here in BC.

I propose we start with the deer that reside in Victoria.

With proper education I don't think there would be a problem with bowhunting opportunities for homesteader elk - this is a perfect opportunity.

With risk comes reward. It isn't a US vs Canadian thing. There's bow only opportunities throughout all of Alberta in interface areas and many for youth only (new bowhunters) in what could be considered residential areas nonetheless. The key is education.

We won't know unless we give it a shot.

[J_T]

Pointing the finger at government or F&W branch isn't going to achieve anything. Asking about weapon's choice on the hunter questionnaire isn't a solution, merely a crutch that won't provide what is needed (motivations and factors that affect the bowhunting experience). You need to know the real reasons before you can come up with solutions. I wasn't pointing a finger.

My reference to asking for this information was aimed not at the "why" but at starting to acheive some base line information at relatively little cost. The point though, is that a relatively simple process/change was not followed up.

Regardless of what solutions we (collaboratively and collectively) come up with, there must be a measurement against the strategy. Gov can currently quote "stats" on the number of bowhunters, but that information is subject to large inaccuracy. I'd like a confirmation source.


It extremely easy to mine data based on the time of the year (dates) and the resulting season I understand the ability to mine data. I was speaking to the local Bio (Tara) about this, and she would not entirely agree with your statement. She does exactly that and her comment is that it is pretty sketchy. I agree, we can make some determinations IE anything killed in a bow only season, must have been killed by bow.

Regarding your comment that someone needs to put something together. I agree entirely and have been searching for the partnership and contract to make that occur. To do it right, would not be inexpensive) Interesting point though, while I recognize it benefits a bowhunting community, whose responsibility is it? Perhaps Government's? Perhaps everyone's.

I was at a meeting not long ago and the issue of a Deer Management Strategy came up. Gov gave an estimate of how much it would likely cost and the Bowhunting community immediately stepped up and supported it with a statement of funds, while the BCWF (of which I am a member) took the position that it was Government's responsibility and therefore they would not immediately commit.

[Bow Walker]

Grrrrrrr - :evil: I just spent/wasted 15 minutes typing out a thoughtful and incsive reply - only to inadvertently hit some unknown combination of keys that sent me to Internet Explorer's homepage :shock:, thus losing all my hard work. :evil:

Now that's frustrating!:mad:

[Bow Walker]

I was going to elaborate on the government's inability to come up with a workable Urban hunt to reduce the population of deer here in Vict. I suspect that there isn't a politician that's willing to support such an idea. I doubt that they'd risk their future re-election on this issue.

But - properly administered the hunt could be a huge success. It would also have the added benefit of reducing vehicular incidents with the deer, especially at night.

[Bow Walker]

I don't doubt that one bit! Knowledge is always a good thing.

However, if a seasoned bowhunter (like you) or a guy that uses bows off and on (like me) or a new hunter that is interested in bowhunting is forced to take a seminar......I bet it will be counterproductive to adding bowhunters to the ranks..

Lots of people say to me "Hey, I want to get a gun, learn to shoot, maybe hunt" And when I tell them the steps to get a PAL and then CORE...they say "That's alot of trouble and money. I'll do it if convenient" (or words to that effect)

Which essentially translates into "If I REALLLLLLY want it, I'll do it.But it seems like a hassle, so maybe I won't."

Ya know what Clarke? If (and that's a big if) the IBEP ever became compulsory to bowhunting I bet the those who took the course would not get as much out of it as those that voluntarily take it now.

Reason?

Attitude. If you're forced into something you are less likely to be enthusiastic or receptive. While the opposite is true for volunteers.

[huntwriter]

Attitude. If you're forced into something you are less likely to be enthusiastic or receptive. While the opposite is true for volunteers.

My point exactly. Couldn't have said it better myself. ;)

This might be the reason why mandatory hunter education is given as main reason for newcomers to stay away. There is a huge difference in:

"You MUST FIRST..."
or
"Hey here I have a chance to learn something."

[Gateholio]

Ya know what Clarke? If (and that's a big if) the IBEP ever became compulsory to bowhunting I bet the those who took the course would not get as much out of it as those that voluntarily take it now.

Reason?

Attitude. If you're forced into something you are less likely to be enthusiastic or receptive. While the opposite is true for volunteers.

Agreed...

I started shooting a bow when I was in Grade 3 or 4, in my backyard (40 yards). At 14 or 15 I killed my first deer with a traditional longbow and steel broadheads.. I did this with NO mentor, no instruction, just read a couple of bowhunting books and magazines.

Even though I rarely use a bow these days, if I wanted to bowhunt, I'd buy a new bow, practice, become proficient, and be on my way. Might take an IBEP course if it was convienient, but if I was forced to take a course- I wouldnt' bother bowhunting....

[J_T]

Even though I rarely use a bow these days, if I wanted to bowhunt, I'd buy a new bow, practice, become proficient, and be on my way. Might take an IBEP course if it was convienient, but if I was forced to take a course- I wouldnt' bother bowhunting.... Agree. Just to reiterate, that is exactly why, if we want to entice youth into the hunt we must rethink our "CORE first" requirement for a first time hunter and move to a recruitment/mentoring package.

[Gateholio]

Agree. Just to reiterate, that is exactly why, if we want to entice youth into the hunt we must rethink our "CORE first" requirement for a first time hunter and move to a recruitment/mentoring package.

Whatever works, is good with me....;-)

[Bow Walker]

J_T, I like the idea of mentoring (as per an earlier reply here) as a "fun" tool for recruitment. I think it has a lot of upside with little or no downside to it.

One 'restriction' that I'd suggest is the if the person has not handled and/or shot weapons prior to the mentored hunt - that the person not be allowed to carry for at least the first two hunts.

It's easy to stop somewhere, up in the back of beyond, and let that 'newbie' try out the weapon(s) at a target against some bank or in a gravel/dirt pit. Set up a quick target or two and let the fun begin. A great introduction to the shooting sports, including bows.

[Gateholio]

"Mentoring" sounds liek a good idea, but it must not be the only avenue to becoming a hunter....

I had no mentor, challenged the CORE course at 27 years old and taught myself. A steep learning curve, but it is what i had. Would have loved a mentor, but didn't know how to get one.

That is probably the biggest thing- Make it easy to get a mentor, regardless of age.

[loki]

"Mentoring" sounds liek a good idea, but it must not be the only avenue to becoming a hunter....

I had no mentor, challenged the CORE course at 27 years old and taught myself. A steep learning curve, but it is what i had. Would have loved a mentor, but didn't know how to get one.

That is probably the biggest thing- Make it easy to get a mentor, regardless of age.

X2 here.

I'm challenging the CORE and PAL courses all by my lonesome, can't find a mentor. I'd love nothing better than a mentor, that's how I learned to fish, but finding one, or even better finding one that is willing to share some spots (doesn't even have to be good, or a honeyhole) is like pulling teeth.

Personally, for the IBEP I'll be taking that of my own will, which to me gives me more out of the course than if it were mandatory. Although I do hear that in Alberta they pay extra for bowhunting tags, no extra course is taken, just an extra fee for the tag (can you confirm or deny Mikey?). To me a fee wouldn't stop opportunistic hunters trying archery, but at least it puts more money into the hunting economy, which always puts hunters into a better light as they now contribute "X" more amount of dollars into the economy.

[Bowzone_Mikey]

X2 here.

I'm challenging the CORE and PAL courses all by my lonesome, can't find a mentor. I'd love nothing better than a mentor, that's how I learned to fish, but finding one, or even better finding one that is willing to share some spots (doesn't even have to be good, or a honeyhole) is like pulling teeth.

Personally, for the IBEP I'll be taking that of my own will, which to me gives me more out of the course than if it were mandatory. Although I do hear that in Alberta they pay extra for bowhunting tags, no extra course is taken, just an extra fee for the tag (can you confirm or deny Mikey?). To me a fee wouldn't stop opportunistic hunters trying archery, but at least it puts more money into the hunting economy, which always puts hunters into a better light as they now contribute "X" more amount of dollars into the economy.

Ya its 7 bucks to get a bowhunting permit with 1 of that going to the Alberta Bowhunters Association that have lobbied for the very liberal seasons there (an extra 2 full months) the rest goes to IBM (the company contracted to deal with WIN and license systems)

IBEP is not manditory in AB but there is a plethera of knowledgeable bowhunters there (just about 10 thousand ABA memebers from what i am led to beleive)

Gimme a call Loki ... I'll take ya to fling some arras

[The Hermit]

G G...I gave up (sold) my guns to concentrate on bow only hunting. It was a conscious choice. My motivation(s) are purely altruistic - I relish the challenge of being able to tag a game animal that I took with my bow.

:-P You gave up hunting to shoot 3-D this year bud!!! :tongue:

[Bow Walker]

A matter of time vs $$$ Gas ain't cheap no mo', ya no'?

[The Hermit]

The thing about time is that each of us has a limited amount of it, that is for the one ultimate truth. How we use it is up to us!

I try to use as much of what time I have before I die to do things that are really important to me. I figure if there is any divine purpose for human beings then we must be on earth to appreciate, use and enjoy our environment and nature.

Dan like I've said pal you are always welcome to join me on a hunt! Looking forward to getting out together for some bear hunting this spring... that is if you choose to use a day of your time this way! :P

[islandboy]

I have just completed the IBEP course in Victoria. A worthwhile course. An eye opener and confidence builder. Who am I? Approaching 50 quickly, in the past I have hunted both with rifle (success with large game)and bow (success with small game). For personal reasons I have taken a 7+ year hiatus from hunting. Planning to return to hunting this year I heard of the course and signed up, both to connect with hunters in the area and to see "what is new" in Bowhunting.


While there is some "CORE" information, the course (and manual) is focussed on the challenges bowhunters face with our quarry, safety and public perception. My father was not a hunter and I will say I wish there was a course like this when I first started as it would have shortened my time to success in the field. The instructor, his assistants and other hunters shared their wisdom in a respectful way. Discussion was focussed and welcome. There was plenty of opportunity to handle various equipment. In the afternoon of the second day tree stands were erected and opportunities to participate in setting them up and shooting from them were available. Skills that I hope to incorporate this fall.


Would I recommend it. Yes. To a beginning bowhunter? Yes. To a rifle enthusiast? Yes. To an advanced bowhunter? Absolutely, particularly because we as hunters are a very small percentage of populace and as an advanced hunter you have the ability to share knowledge that will help "newcomers" understand the ease and importance of protecting our sport from bad press.

Steve

[Dragginbait]

Well said, Steve.

[Ron.C]

I have hunted for 22 years, and strictly bowhunted for the last7 years now with some pretty good success. I took this course becuase I may the opportunity to hunt out of province in the near future, and this course is manditory right now in 3 provinces and a pile of states. I didn't really figure I would learn anything new, but I did. Having said that, I got a chance to talk to a crossbow shooter quite a bit as well as a traditional shooter. I did really gain a new perspective on hunting from their point of view as well as the gear they use. I did learn that one can not simply pick up a crossbow with any bolt/broadhead combination, and get good arrow flight/penetration with any old setup. In my opinion now, It is harder to effectively use a crossbow for hunting than a compound because it is harder to find a bolt/broadhead combination that meets all the basic needs" flight, stability, range, penetration, and noise level, and hats off to those who can do it. Yes we covered alot of basic subject matter that anyone with a little bit of experience with a bow or a rifle surely already has, but none the less it was still a learning experience. Do seasoned bowhunters need this course? No, not really, but there is always room to learn something new or reafirm something that you may already know. The best part of the course was sharing experience with other bowhunters, talking about what has worked, what hasn't and hopefully saving a less experienced bowhunter some and frustration and time by pointing out mistakes you yourself along the way. My two cents

[Bow Walker]

I'm pretty disappointed that I was working both Sat. and Sun. I'd have love to have been up there with you guys. Trouble is, work still comes first.

[The Hermit]

I would like to thank Ted Kennedy of the BC Archery Association and his very helpful assitant instructors for putting on a very worthwhile course.

The guys above have summarized my experience well. It was great to get out and fling a few, pick up all the tips and tricks around setting up the tree stands, and to try out a range of equipment! Special thanks to Gord Eason of the United Bowhunters of BC Association and Joanne Skakan of Island Outfitters in Victoria for the loan of a number of bows for people to try.

I would also like to acknowledge and thank the Victoria Fish and Game Protective Association for hosting the course at their awesome clubhouse and archery range!

[Will]

Sounded like things went well !
Glad those that took the initiative to attend appear to be Happy with what they took form this.
Great going to those involved and I'm sorry I missed this one....:wink:

[Moosegetter]

Yes it was a very good course and I thourghly injoyed it and learned alot.

[tbear]

I just wanted to thank Bill (Hermit) for coordinating this IBEP course. His hard work and persistence paid off with a well attended diverse group.

I would also like to thank the Victoria Fish and Game club for donating the club house and course for us to use.

Thanks to Brad and Ron for all their tips and tricks with the tree stand part of our course, and Gord for his in depth discussion on variables effecting penetration.

Look forward to meeting more new bow hunting friends at up coming IBEP courses. The next one is at Burke Mountain in Port Coquitlam, Feb 23 & 24.

I enjoyed meeting all those in attendance and look forward to seeing you on the 3D courses, and best of luck in the hunting fields.

Respectfully
Ted Kennedy
VP Bowhunting & 3D BC Archery Assoc
United Bowhunters of BC
IBEP Instructor