Prediction

[horshur]

Mule deer numbers have peaked and wildlife managers will declare that populations crashed in 07/08 due to winterkill. But the real reason is this......

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y264/akdana/IMG_0613.jpg

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y264/akdana/IMG_0616.jpg

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y264/akdana/IMG_0619.jpg

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y264/akdana/IMG_0565.jpg

Third wolf kill in two weeks I have found. By my observation wolves are killing a deer a night. This buck was killed less than a km from town which in my 13 years in the valley have never seen....the wolves are running deer without mercy right now. I seen this buck just last week alive. Bottom photo is of a doe killed last week.

[MattB]

Time to start hunting the *******s...

[islandstalker]

where is this?

[Gateholio]

Wolves are endangered and need to be protected....

[Freshtracks]

:confused: Looks like nature doing what's natural. If wolves are that plentiful should be no problem to harvest a few ... Mr. Bartells FoxPro and bang bang.

Curious as to what is in the background (behind your son) of the second pic. Another carcass?

[hunter1947]

What Region ???

[Barracuda]

wolves are far more plentifull then folks want to admit. I have found several sets of tracks in region 2 in an area that of course you cannot harvest them ( I am positive animals can read the regs).

[Rob]

My buddy seen five about 40 yds from him(following his work truck in the bush near 100 mile)and he shot the large female. Hes getting a rug done. Not the first time hearing about wolves in the Clinton to 100 mile area. Rob

[horshur]

I have alway's been able to find wolves just this year I guy can't get away from them. Honestly, what they are doing right now has not been the normal in 13 years I have lived here.
Was again in fresh wolf sign today and the two hours of sledding did not manage to get away from them.....this is a different area than yesterday.
The deer are taking a pounding .

[Schmaus]

I have heard that the CO's have contacted some of the local trappers around PG and told them that they can kill as many wolves as they want to using any way possible. This doesn't sound good, I almost have my 120 triple shocks ready for the 7mm-08 which should knock them down pretty good this winter.

[Phreddy]

A friend of mine in 8:6 runs sled dogs and for the last couple of years has been seeing all of the wolves the C.O. says aren't there.
Watched them decimate the deer population on the nothern half of Vancouver Island. Most of animals were just left to rot rather than eaten. Wouldn't want the same thing to happen in the Okanagan, or anywhere else for that matter.
Tempted to do the "triple S" thing Ralph Klein talked about when he was premier of Alta. (shoot, shovel, shut-up)

[Browningmirage]

I have heard that the CO's have contacted some of the local trappers around PG and told them that they can kill as many wolves as they want to using any way possible. This doesn't sound good, I almost have my 120 triple shocks ready for the 7mm-08 which should knock them down pretty good this winter.

Gotta love the heresay. Using principles of game management does this actually make any sense at all?

Wolves need to eat...just like any other animal. In past years, the wolves have eaten deer at a similar rate as to now (similar to cougars, it takes at least 1 deer a week to sustain a small pack)

Also understand, that wolves will move into (and out of) areas according to food availability (it just makes sense). The movement of wolves into areas where prey densities are high (ie around Comox) does not indicate an increase in wolf population sizes, rather it indicates that wolves are following a prey source. It may also seem more common to view wolf sign because they are in a more populated area.

I agree with the shooting of wolves, they are predators and need to be controlled, but similar to coyotes have several adaptations to selective pressure by hunting (for example coyotes increase litter sizes). Unlike coyotes however, there is generally a bag limit and closed seasons on wolves. Make sure you check that out before going shooting...you dont want to be caught with your pants down.

Carrying capacity is subject to fluctuations, based on the food availability and selective pressures (such as predation). When a population gets too high, selective pressures bring it back to carrying capacity. When the prey population gets lowered, wolf populations suffer dieback, and then deer populations can rebound again, allowing the cycle to repeat itself. here on the North Island, 30 or so years ago, deer populations were somewhere around 27 deer per square kilometer. Predator populations increased, and currently we are somewhere around 9 to 10 deer per square kilometer (last time i checked). This is only half a cycle, and it was 30 years. Nature operates on a different scale than humanity does.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

In the north Moose and deer took a pretty major hit after last winter. Predator population was most likely also high before the die-off and, unlike prey species, predators did really well last winter. This year there is likely going to be a lot more pressure on the remaining prey. I'm sure Rock Doctor can attest to that:shock:.

SSS

[dana]

"it takes at least 1 deer a week to sustain a small pack"

Try 1 deer a night. It doesn't take long for 2-3 dogs to reduce a deer to nothing but hair and bones.

[Fisher-Dude]

The deer are taking a pounding .

That's because the wolves have probably already kicked the crap out of the moose calves.


Wolves are endangered and need to be protected....

Yup, and they only kill the sick and injured too. :wink:

[GoatGuy]

Gotta love the heresay. Using principles of game management does this actually make any sense at all?

Wolves need to eat...just like any other animal. In past years, the wolves have eaten deer at a similar rate as to now (similar to cougars, it takes at least 1 deer a week to sustain a small pack)

Also understand, that wolves will move into (and out of) areas according to food availability (it just makes sense). The movement of wolves into areas where prey densities are high (ie around Comox) does not indicate an increase in wolf population sizes, rather it indicates that wolves are following a prey source. It may also seem more common to view wolf sign because they are in a more populated area.

I agree with the shooting of wolves, they are predators and need to be controlled, but similar to coyotes have several adaptations to selective pressure by hunting (for example coyotes increase litter sizes). Unlike coyotes however, there is generally a bag limit and closed seasons on wolves. Make sure you check that out before going shooting...you dont want to be caught with your pants down.

Carrying capacity is subject to fluctuations, based on the food availability and selective pressures (such as predation). When a population gets too high, selective pressures bring it back to carrying capacity. When the prey population gets lowered, wolf populations suffer dieback, and then deer populations can rebound again, allowing the cycle to repeat itself. here on the North Island, 30 or so years ago, deer populations were somewhere around 27 deer per square kilometer. Predator populations increased, and currently we are somewhere around 9 to 10 deer per square kilometer (last time i checked). This is only half a cycle, and it was 30 years. Nature operates on a different scale than humanity does.

There's some good reading on predators and some fairly recent stuff to boot.

In todays ecosystems (logging/dams/reservoirs/fences/highways/habitat fragmentation/people) predation and its implications are a little different than the simple peaks and valleys - google apparent competition & mountain caribou, look for Hugh Robinson - there should be plenty to get started on (BC Based). There's plenty of research done in Alaska and the Yukon some of which is likely on the net - also a bit in BC from the 80s but I doubt any of it every hit the 'net'.

[eastkoot]

We've been told we have an over abundance of elk and whitetail in the EK, perhaps a natural solution..:wink:??

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c216/damer1/images.jpg

[Browningmirage]

There's some good reading on predators and some fairly recent stuff to boot.

In todays ecosystems (logging/dams/reservoirs/fences/highways/habitat fragmentation/people) predation and its implications are a little different than the simple peaks and valleys - google apparent competition & mountain caribou, look for Hugh Robinson - there should be plenty to get started on (BC Based). There's plenty of research done in Alaska and the Yukon some of which is likely on the net - also a bit in BC from the 80s but I doubt any of it every hit the 'net'.


It is definately more complicated, i was just trying to point out that its a little deeper than we see more predators; therefore kill em and everything will be sorted out.
One of our professors is doing work on Mtn Caribou and predation, its interesting stuff, especially when other animals get involved.

To be dead honest, my interest lies in fisheries, i was just trying to put a different view on things.

[Schutzen]

Well heres what I know about wolves.
When I was a kid growing up the wolves were supposed to be extinct on Vancouver Island. Suddenly about the late 60's they started to pop up here an there but very few. Then the deer populations on the Island were very good and the hunting was great. By the early/mid 70's the Wolf pops were in heavy upswings. The Prov. govt would do zero to controll them lest the Bambi lovers go ape-sh_t on them. We hunters tried to get them to cull... but no way. By 1977 the fantastic deer pop here reckoned to be in the 180,000 deer at its peak was cut to a remnant pop which outside of city limits or farm deer have never come close to recovering anything like their former glory. Now we have Black Bears in insane numbers, Cougar's which are up there now too, a healthy wolf pop, new hi-ways that kill a ton of deer every year, etc. Out of control pitlamping! Throw in a severe winter here and there...and well you get the picture.
The predators have just taken over basically and the deer pops just cannot get up off the floor.
Its just so damn sad...do not let them do this to your region or you can forget anything resembling decent sport hunting.

[GoatGuy]

It is definately more complicated, i was just trying to point out that its a little deeper than we see more predators; therefore kill em and everything will be sorted out.
One of our professors is doing work on Mtn Caribou and predation, its interesting stuff, especially when other animals get involved.

To be dead honest, my interest lies in fisheries, i was just trying to put a different view on things.

;-) Yep, they've been turning out some great students, research and have been getting funding down pretty good at UNBC. You've got a couple profs that are very pro hunting and also very firm believers in conservation - the nice part is they're also researchers. Definitely the go to university in BC for anyone interested in management/research in the outdoors. You're getting a great education.

[dana]

But they certainly don't know forestry from their own asses. :) You see that 'special' old growth forest they just recently found. LMAO!!! Imagine old growth Cw in the Interior? Who would have thunk it? BTW what does ICH stand for? Do they teach even the basics up there?????

[Browningmirage]

Well heres what I know about wolves.
When I was a kid growing up the wolves were supposed to be extinct on Vancouver Island. Suddenly about the late 60's they started to pop up here an there but very few. Then the deer populations on the Island were very good and the hunting was great. By the early/mid 70's the Wolf pops were in heavy upswings. The Prov. govt would do zero to controll them lest the Bambi lovers go ape-sh_t on them. We hunters tried to get them to cull... but no way. By 1977 the fantastic deer pop here reckoned to be in the 180,000 deer at its peak was cut to a remnant pop which outside of city limits or farm deer have never come close to recovering anything like their former glory. Now we have Black Bears in insane numbers, Cougar's which are up there now too, a healthy wolf pop, new hi-ways that kill a ton of deer every year, etc. Out of control pitlamping! Throw in a severe winter here and there...and well you get the picture.
The predators have just taken over basically and the deer pops just cannot get up off the floor.
Its just so damn sad...do not let them do this to your region or you can forget anything resembling decent sport hunting.


Theres still lots of deer...as they are one of the very few food sources for carnivores such as wolves and cougars on the island; the predator population relies heavily on deer for survival, if populations of deer are low, predator populations would also likely decline. Talk to any silviculture people, they will tell you that there are tonnes of deer, not to mention the hunters that see good hunting on the island every year. Deer will change habits (become more cryptic) to avoid predation as well, as can be evidenced by almost every hunter, and numerous studies about nocturnal behaviour during hunting seasons in the states.

As Goat Guy was saying, there are other factors in todays ecosystems, and there are many many vague areas. For example,mountain caribou and moose in the ICH. Due to increased moose (and other ungulate) populations, predator populations are higher, resulting in increased mortality on the mountain caribou (incidental). Basically if you increase the number of predators in an area, the number of fatal encounters increases (generally). As deer are the main prey on vancouver island, it can be reasoned that a high predator density is indicitive of reasonable deer populations. Also, as GG was saying, understand that there is error here, and the peaks and valleys of models are rarely seen in nature, due to its comlexities, however, in some cases, it can give an idea as to how things behave.

[Browningmirage]

But they certainly don't know forestry from their own asses. :) You see that 'special' old growth forest they just recently found. LMAO!!! Imagine old growth Cw in the Interior? Who would have thunk it? BTW what does ICH stand for? Do they teach even the basics up there?????


Oh damn, i know this one...

It is a Biogeoclimatic zone that roughly corresponds to the Columbia region of the Canadian forest classification system. Common tree species are Thuja plicata, Tsuga heterophylla. Understory species such as Oplopanax horridus are also found here. Basically the ICH (interior cedar hemlock) is the second most productive BEC in B.C., next to the CWH. An issue arose when pine (Pinus contorta var. latifolia) was planted instead of species that were native to the zone. Certain management issues:logging of old growth forests (destruction of caribou habitat). We could literally go on for hours, the literature here is immense.

As for BEC, it is nice to know, but hey, it is a forestry classification system (although it is useful for wildlife as well), branches of govt dealing with wildlife have a different classification system for use.

You should know the forestry program is good, isnt that what MattB is taking?

[horshur]

Browning...when you get an infection it is a natural event......you ever took antibiotics?

What I see is local deer jammed into a pretty tight winter range because the "experts" dealt with MPB by creating a prairie.....so if it makes you feel better to explain things fine. My prediction remains....deer hunting is not going to be what it has been the last 5 years or so because of wolves.
And while managers 'control' us hunters by limiting harvest they have let the deer population "run" and now have wolves becoming more dominant so have lost control....they could keep a balance if they would manage rather than being political. Deer numbers have been high here but wolves do not apply for LEH's and limited to one deer every week.
To dink around with things until there is hardy a resemblance of Nature and than wring our hands and do nothing.....
The World Wildlife Fund sponsored a movie; "The Last Trapper" a few things said in the film suggested what I believe....Man has a role to play and that is to keep a balance.

[GoatGuy]

And while managers 'control' us hunters by limiting harvest they have let the deer population "run" and now have wolves becoming more dominant so have lost control....they could keep a balance if they would manage rather than being political. Deer numbers have been high here but wolves do not apply for LEH's and limited to one deer every week.



Horshur, it isn't the managers controlling hunters when it comes to deer - for the most part managers are onboard, it's the hunters that are holding us back.

Have a look at the other threads.

When it comes to preds well.....................

[Browningmirage]

Browning...when you get an infection it is a natural event......you ever took antibiotics?

What I see is local deer jammed into a pretty tight winter range because the "experts" dealt with MPB by creating a prairie.....so if it makes you feel better to explain things fine. My prediction remains....deer hunting is not going to be what it has been the last 5 years or so because of wolves.
And while managers 'control' us hunters by limiting harvest they have let the deer population "run" and now have wolves becoming more dominant so have lost control....they could keep a balance if they would manage rather than being political. Deer numbers have been high here but wolves do not apply for LEH's and limited to one deer every week.
To dink around with things until there is hardy a resemblance of Nature and than wring our hands and do nothing.....
The World Wildlife Fund sponsored a movie; "The Last Trapper" a few things said in the film suggested what I believe....Man has a role to play and that is to keep a balance.


Actually no i have not taken antibiotics...i am a breatharian...i prefer to get the nutrients and energy i need from the air i breathe :cool:.

[bensonvalley]

ICH.....I Can't Harvest (any wood)

[MattB]

But they certainly don't know forestry from their own asses. :) You see that 'special' old growth forest they just recently found. LMAO!!! Imagine old growth Cw in the Interior? Who would have thunk it? BTW what does ICH stand for? Do they teach even the basics up there?????

I drive past the ancient forest all the time, haha. It reminds me of blue river without the steep terrain. Im gonna have to look into this "ancient forest" and see if the trees are older than those they are logging in Blue river. Im guessing they are around the same age though.

[GoatGuy]

I drive past the ancient forest all the time, haha. It reminds me of blue river without the steep terrain. Im gonna have to look into this "ancient forest" and see if the trees are older than those they are logging in Blue river. Im guessing they are around the same age though.


He's alive!

I heard you quit huntin and took up drinkin' beer and chasin two-legged critters. :eek:

[MattB]

lol, yea...just wait until this coming season.

[horshur]

Here is another from last night......one deer a week or so eh? LOL
best I can tell three wolves. This years fawn a doe. I placed the hide there to photo it was in the bush away the actual kill was on an active logging road. That's three I have found in the past week and I stayed home christmas day.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y264/akdana/IMG_0621.jpg

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y264/akdana/IMG_0620.jpg

[dana]

Seeing that Ancient Forest on the News Hour sure made me think that the forestry instructors at UNBC might be more suited to BC's underground forestry industry. The trees MAY be thousands of years old. WTF??? Have they not taught anyone at that school how to use an inky???? LMAO!!! When I see $hit like that being promoted by the school, I believe it really brings into question anything and everything they teach there.

[Browningmirage]

You know...i took a look at the website there...all i can say is...man oh man. Who would have thunk that there was an interior "snow forest"...

At least i am not a forestry student...i would have to hang my head in shame if i saw this.

As for questioning what is being taught...the only thing to question are those people doing arts degrees ;)

[hunter1947]

Here is another from last night......one deer a week or so eh? LOL
best I can tell three wolves. This years fawn a doe. I placed the hide there to photo it was in the bush away the actual kill was on an active logging road. That's three I have found in the past week and I stayed home christmas day.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y264/akdana/IMG_0621.jpg

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y264/akdana/IMG_0620.jpg
It's time to get a hold of the registered trapper in that area and tell him what you have been seeing ,he might thank you for telling him about it. Is this area a registered trap line area or not ????. If not try and get someone that is a registered trapper to clean up on these eating machines.

[dana]

I talked to a local trapper and it seems they are working hard at trying to catch the wolves alright. Live trap them instead of killing them. They get paid big dollars from the ministry to live trap so the ministry can put tracking collars on them and turn them loose again. You see we need proof they kill things like caribou before we can do anything about it. What a freaking waste of money and waste of animals. The last caribou will be killed by a collared wolf.

[Browningmirage]

I talked to a local trapper and it seems they are working hard at trying to catch the wolves alright. Live trap them instead of killing them. They get paid big dollars from the ministry to live trap so the ministry can put tracking collars on them and turn them loose again. You see we need proof they kill things like caribou before we can do anything about it. What a freaking waste of money and waste of animals. The last caribou will be killed by a collared wolf.


Maybe, but you cant manage for something without knowing what you are managing before hand. Every situation is different, if you come in and manage animals in 7A the same as region 1, you are going to screw some stuff up. Also you have to make everyone happy...the hunters, and the greenies. The greenies would hate to see a cull, and we all know it, and previously, they have been the loudest voice (hunters are generally meek). By managing up there by killing moose to artificially lower the wolf population, they are studying what is going on in this particular instance. I dont think it will work, but you never know.

[horshur]

The pictures I posted are taken above Little Fort and Barrier...the last kill was directly above the Barrier river 6 kms out of town and about a 1.5 km from dump. These wolves should not be part of the live trap program. I have not seen much in the way of trapping going on in any of these areas for years...Martin set's directly above little fort have been empty for at least 5 years.
So I will run it down for you guys. While the wolves were running deer in November up the top end of the burn off of the Gorman road they were also running deer up darlington about 15 km and 10 km up Thuya. In Eakin creek they were running from 3km up to phinetta also do not forget the Nehalston road where they killed a doe on the road same night they were killing on thuya and while all this was going on 4 wolves were running on Baldy mnt east of Little Fort.
We are about to find out why so many of our forbears hated wolves.

[4 point]

Lots of wolves in 3-28 & 3-29. From my experience an increase for sure in 3-28 over the last number of years. Every time were out we see lots of small packs (3-4 wolves) tracks & scat. Sometimes up to maybe 6 animals travelling together. And of course kills are seen as well. We saw the lowest number of moose this year than any year in the past 10. CO I spoke to in bush said she didn't have a clue why the shortage of moose this year but everyone they checking said the same thing. Also 4 point numbers were away down. Were wolves part of the problem, yes but others reasons I am sure there are. It hard to see wolves before they see you and are gone. I missed a big single wolf last year at about 250 yards, down hill.....etc. To bad as if I had got him I might have saved a deer or moose or two.

[hunter1947]

I talked to a local trapper and it seems they are working hard at trying to catch the wolves alright. Live trap them instead of killing them. They get paid big dollars from the ministry to live trap so the ministry can put tracking collars on them and turn them loose again. You see we need proof they kill things like caribou before we can do anything about it. What a freaking waste of money and waste of animals. The last caribou will be killed by a collared wolf.
This doesent make any sense to me ,the only person that is going to benefit from this is the trapper. Why live trap them ,then put tracking collars on them and set them free ,then continue doing the same thing ,it don't make sense to me ,what a wast of our money.:???:

[one-shot-wonder]

While the wolves were running deer in November up the top end of the burn off of the Gorman road they were also running deer up darlington about 15 km and 10 km up Thuya. In Eakin creek they were running from 3km up to phinetta also do not forget the Nehalston road where they killed a doe on the road same night they were killing on thuya and while all this was going on 4 wolves were running on Baldy mnt east of Little Fort.
We are about to find out why so many of our forbears hated wolves.

I was up the Thuya & Eakin in November and followed 2 sets of wolf tracks and eventually they turned into a full run and then I could see in the fresh snow where they had taken down a deer from that night. I was amazed at the gap between the paw prints at a full run, big dogs for sure.

At least there is a wolf season in Region 3, here in 8 the bio's heads are too far up the greenies asses to realize that there are wolfs in all adjacent regions but of course not in the Okanagan.:roll:

[Browningmirage]

This doesent make any sense to me ,the only person that is going to benefit from this is the trapper. Why live trap them ,then put tracking collars on them and set them free ,then continue doing the same thing ,it don't make sense to me ,what a wast of our money.:???:


Not really...you can manage something, but you can only do it effectively if you have information on the trends. Take for example what is being attempted with mountain caribou, moose and wolves. They are trying to artificially lower the population of wolves by lowering the population of moose. In order to see if this works, animals have to be tracked and data has to be gathered. This is to see if it this management strategy is working, and if it can be succesfully implemented in other places.

[Will]

We are about to find out why so many of our forbears hated wolves.
That's some scary $hit........:shock:

[dana]

Not really...you can manage something, but you can only do it effectively if you have information on the trends. Take for example what is being attempted with mountain caribou, moose and wolves. They are trying to artificially lower the population of wolves by lowering the population of moose. In order to see if this works, animals have to be tracked and data has to be gathered. This is to see if it this management strategy is working, and if it can be succesfully implemented in other places.

Browning,
Hard to buy that when they lowered the LEH authorizations due to having a low winter count because their heli time was booked on a foggy overcast day. :roll: My take on this whole caribou debacle is that they just want to show the Vancouver granola crunchers that they are doing 'something' and thus getting the green vote so they can maintain power for the glory of 2010. My bet is the funding for all these so-called studies will tank shortly after the spring election. They have years worth of studies on wolves in the North Thompson, but why not throw more money out there to help the local trappers eh? Can't wait until one of those collared *******s jumps in front of me and I drop it like a sack of shit. Just think of the data they will collect when the collar jumps a ride with a CN train.:lol:

[horshur]

Just talked with buddy......six more wolves working the north end of adams lake today....right in there with the struggling elk herd that the Elk foundation decided would be a poor investment because they would be feeding wolves....locals in Clearwater had raised much of money for a transplant.

[hunter1947]

Not really...you can manage something, but you can only do it effectively if you have information on the trends. Take for example what is being attempted with mountain caribou, moose and wolves. They are trying to artificially lower the population of wolves by lowering the population of moose. In order to see if this works, animals have to be tracked and data has to be gathered. This is to see if it this management strategy is working, and if it can be succesfully implemented in other places.
I can't see this working ,or am i not seeing it right ??? ,When lowering the population of wolves and reducing the population of moose or others means one thing for us hunters ,less game animals ,i would think buy reducing the wolves in a problem area would be the cheapest thing to do in the long run. I am a registered trapper and i would free volunteer my time to reduce problem wolves if i lived in an area that had a problem with wolves. The best way to reduce the wolves in a problem area is by helicopter. Look at what happened hear on Vancouver island when the got rid of the wolves in an area on the north island ,the marmot population is rebounding back. When they reduced the wolves population hear in the one area ,it was all kept under the table when they reduced the wolves and didn't let it get out to media.

[Browningmirage]

I can't see this working ,or am i not seeing it right ??? ,When lowering the population of wolves and reducing the population of moose or others means one thing for us hunters ,less game animals ,i would think buy reducing the wolves in a problem area would be the cheapest thing to do in the long run. I am a registered trapper and i would free volunteer my time to reduce problem wolves if i lived in an area that had a problem with wolves. The best way to reduce the wolves in a problem area is by helicopter. Look at what happened hear on Vancouver island when the got rid of the wolves in an area on the north island ,the marmot population is rebounding back. When they reduced the wolves population hear in the one area ,it was all kept under the table when they reduced the wolves and didn't let it get out to media.

I dont know if i can see it working either, but thats why you study things like this.

As for lowering LEH authorizations, i dont fully know, but i have some theorys
1) If the moose population is reduced too fast, the wolves in the area will be more likely to feed on the caribou that they are trying to protect, as the wolf population will still be high. By lowering the population slowly, they are slowly lowering the population of wolves, thus reducing the impact on the caribou when compared to a scenario where they are the only prey species.
2) Hunter pressure. We all know that government bows to pressure. If hunters are complaining that moose numbers are low, the possibility of tags being reduced is definitely there.

Remember that what is best for humans is not necessarily what is best for nature. It is because we have screwed with things in the past that we are having problems now. Try to take hunter (or people) interests out of the equation and manage for what is best for the animals.

Remember i am in fish management not wildlife, things are completely different between the two fields. Try to visualize why the govt would be doing this (try to think that possibly for once they arent trying to screw everything up). Im not standing up for the govt, im just trying to make sense out of what they are doing (probably a waste of time), but it makes more sense then just dooming everything to extinction because of a political agenda. In that case we might as well all just sit down and shut up because everything is going to be extinct anyways.

As for cloudy day, thats bogus, ive worked with govt before, we dont fly if we cant do the work we need to do. Its all based on a budget, just like everything else. You dont fly if it is pointless.

[hunter1947]

I dont know if i can see it working either, but thats why you study things like this.

As for lowering LEH authorizations, i dont fully know, but i have some theorys
1) If the moose population is reduced too fast, the wolves in the area will be more likely to feed on the caribou that they are trying to protect, as the wolf population will still be high. By lowering the population slowly, they are slowly lowering the population of wolves, thus reducing the impact on the caribou when compared to a scenario where they are the only prey species.
2) Hunter pressure. We all know that government bows to pressure. If hunters are complaining that moose numbers are low, the possibility of tags being reduced is definitely there.

Remember that what is best for humans is not necessarily what is best for nature. It is because we have screwed with things in the past that we are having problems now. Try to take hunter (or people) interests out of the equation and manage for what is best for the animals.

Remember i am in fish management not wildlife, things are completely different between the two fields. Try to visualize why the govt would be doing this (try to think that possibly for once they arent trying to screw everything up). Im not standing up for the govt, im just trying to make sense out of what they are doing (probably a waste of time), but it makes more sense then just dooming everything to extinction because of a political agenda. In that case we might as well all just sit down and shut up because everything is going to be extinct anyways.

As for cloudy day, thats bogus, ive worked with govt before, we dont fly if we cant do the work we need to do. Its all based on a budget, just like everything else. You dont fly if it is pointless.
Flying will get the work done ,buy eliminating the population of wolves in a problem area ,that is the cheapest thing to do and a sure thing.

[Browningmirage]

Flying will get the work done ,buy eliminating the population of wolves in a problem area ,that is the cheapest thing to do and a sure thing.


Except that it isnt. Coyote shooting never helped decrease the population, as the animals just increased their litter size, and population levels just stay the same. As long as the food source is there, the population will remain strong. Dogs are smart animals, after you start killing one the rest get wise, and there is no way that (at least with coyotes) that you can get enough to make a dent in the population. I can see no reason why it would be no different with wolves.

[horshur]

Today. Two working above Dixon valley. One top end of Fadear. Two at 2 kms on westside road north end probably same crossed again about 12 kms. Also Buddy say's 5-6 Wells grey park road just past spahats on pavement.

[Will]

Today. Two working above Dixon valley. One top end of Fadear. Two at 2 kms on westside road north end probably same crossed again about 12 kms. Also Buddy say's 5-6 Wells grey park road just past spahats on pavement.
Wonder if it's the same two we seen working the top end of O'conner rd a couple weeks back ?

[hunter1947]

Wolves need more to eat as one then a coyote ,as for one they eat twice as much as a coyote. As for the population coyote are greater in numbers then that of the wolf. When you control a wolf population you do it in the mid winter this takes care of all ,even the young ones that are at bay. You don't stop till the population is under control. What you said the coyote come back in numbers ,i can't see that happening if the program had been followed through right in the first place in problem areas. I know that you will never get rid of the coyote or wolves but they can be reduced to a low number. Sounds like to me that they or ho ever carried out the programs never did the job right. Once you get the wolf population under control or the coyote ,i then can see them coloring them to see there movement in order to control them. The few wolves and coyotes that are still out there that have been collared and give birth in the spring time ,you deal with it then. But in all cases its the old dollar that speaks in the end and the government allways say we haven't got the revenue to the job ,in my books i really don't think they give a crap about how many predators are out there ,just as long as we the hunters keep feeding them the dollars.

[hunter1947]

Browning,
Hard to buy that when they lowered the LEH authorizations due to having a low winter count because their heli time was booked on a foggy overcast day. :roll: My take on this whole caribou debacle is that they just want to show the Vancouver granola crunchers that they are doing 'something' and thus getting the green vote so they can maintain power for the glory of 2010. My bet is the funding for all these so-called studies will tank shortly after the spring election. They have years worth of studies on wolves in the North Thompson, but why not throw more money out there to help the local trappers eh? Can't wait until one of those collared *******s jumps in front of me and I drop it like a sack of shit. Just think of the data they will collect when the collar jumps a ride with a CN train.:lol: LOL ,that's very true Dana ,good point.:wink:.

[Freshtracks]

horshur ... you refer to track sitings of a number ? of wolves. From Little Fort to the top end of the Adams. Over how many square kilometers are you encompassing these wolves?

Who knows the approx. square kilometers, wolves are territorial?Browningmirage estimate?

[hunter1947]

Wolves are territorial ,but only to a point. Once they have no food left in an area they will move on till they find more game ,they just keep moving till they find more food. look at the wolf packs the follow the caribou up north ,they don't stay behind when the caribou migrate ,they follow them for thousands of klm.

[bc-shedder]

yeah horshur we dohave a wolf problem I had a moose draw 2 years back saw lots of cows but not a single one had a calf now. this year roled around saw only two moose.:cry: Even the deer are held rate up and when you do end up seeing them they are gone like a bullet. I just wish they would hurry up and take a few packs out to help us out before its to late.A wolf use to be a rare sight but in the last year itself saw over 12.:mad:

[whitetailsheds]

"Except that it isnt. Coyote shooting never helped decrease the population, as the animals just increased their litter size, and population levels just stay the same. As long as the food source is there, the population will remain strong. Dogs are smart animals, after you start killing one the rest get wise, and there is no way that (at least with coyotes) that you can get enough to make a dent in the population. I can see no reason why it would be no different with wolves."

Hmmmm....not so sure about that statement concerning wolves. I'm making this comment from literature and talking to "people in the know" on the Kechika valley only a few years back. Eliminating +++ wolves, brought back a declining moose and stone sheep population. I know this is only one example, but, nonetheless, proof positive.

[KevinB]

"bc-shedderyeah horshur we dohave a wolf problem I had a moose draw 2 years back saw lots of cows but not a single one had a calf now. this year roled around saw only two moose.:cry: Even the deer are held rate up and when you do end up seeing them they are gone like a bullet. I just wish they would hurry up and take a few packs out to help us out before its to late.A wolf use to be a rare sight but in the last year itself saw over 12"


I guess it all depends on where you are, as to what you are seeing or not seeing. I for one have seen way LESS wolf sign this year than the last couple of years. But that doesn't mean much, after all, I'm only one person in one area. The last few years, in an area we have been hunting moose up near Quesnel, we have been seeing quite a bit of wolf sign. This year, in the same area I saw only ONE SET of wolf tracks in 2 weeks. Funny thing, still seemed to be lots of moose and deer around, both when we saw wolf sign and when we didn't. Lots of calves and fawns too. All the other areas I hunted this fall, in region 3, I saw exactly ZERO sets of wolf tracks - but admittedly I didn't cover much ground this season, and did most of my hunting in a few areas near Kamloops. I know a lot of you guys cover a lot of ground out there especially with your work, and if you are seeing more wolf sign everywhere then yeah the number of wolves is probably up - which we should expect it to be, given that there is a lot of wolf food (deer) around. Not really a big surprise!? :cool:

As to the coyote/wolf control vs. increased litter size, etc. debate - I also have read about how coyotes will increase their litter sizes to offset population control to a certain degree. Same thing, if food is scarce they tend to have smaller litters. Not sure how common this phenomenon is or if the research to back it up was all that good, maybe some of the wildlife bio types can comment on that. Of course predators can't infinitely increase their fecundity to counteract a really really aggressive control program, but it's pretty difficult and expensive to conduct a program that will consistently reduce population levels across a broad region in any meaningful and lasting way, without resorting to a bounty system or something similar. And, that ain't about to happen. I also don't buy the whole "we have introduced human influence into the natural balance so now we need to keep di**ing around with it" argument. Predator-prey populations have seesawed all over the place for millions of years, and they have done just fine on their own. Right now, as the number of deer is increasing, so is the number of wolves, and yes they'll probably eat lots of deer, and maybe the deer numbers will go down (or maybe not, hunter harvest in region 3 was relatively low this year), and so on, and so on, and so on...so what? The wolves haven't yet managed to eat all the deer and they never will...

[40incher]

The premise of "wildlife management" when I went to college was that extreme shifts in ungulate populations should be eliminated by managing predators so that these shifts were minimized. Unfortunately, in this politically correct province we no longer "manage" wildlife and humans are viewed as a negative entity outside of the ecosystem.

We are predators, and if hunting and conservation-based wildlife management are to survive we need to manage other predators to compensate for our effect on the ecosystem (whether hunter-caused or from the so-called nonconsumptive use of the land).

Wolves are absolutely out of control in parts of the northwest where outfitters and residents are not intervening. We have lost our caribou hunt in North Tweedsmuir and are on the verge of losing the Atlin hunt, solely due to predation. Many other hunts will follow.

Studies in the Kechika and Level Mtn./Horseranch Mtn. have all showed the benefits of wolf control. We don't need to reinvent the wheel.

Attached is a picture of a very large and healthy cow moose, downed by a pack of wolves, that was being eaten alive by at least twenty when it was walked up to. She had to be put down with both hips eaten to the pelvis, her back devoured, and her flank open from hip to shoulder.

Although the pack of twenty was reduced to 17 in the ensuing chaos we need to manage wolves on an ongoing basis. They are a value to any ecosystem in moderate numbers, but they are out of control at this point with all the carrion left on the ground from railways, highways, etc.... that has allowed wolf numbers to stay at artificially high levels.

My prediction is that, left unchecked, wolves will cause hunters to lose their access to caribou in this province. And once we lose it we will never get it back.

[horshur]

[quote=40incher;224535]The premise of "wildlife management" when I went to college was that extreme shifts in ungulate populations should be eliminated by managing predators so that these shifts were minimized. Unfortunately, in this politically correct province we no longer "manage" wildlife and humans are viewed as a negative entity outside of the ecosystem.quote]

Nicely put.......been a paradigm shift since then.

The call for science is a farce.....if public oppinion trumps science than science has become valueless.

[GoatGuy]

Hunters won't control wolves - want to control them it needs to be on-going and it needs to be done professionally.

In the 80s a couple of my buddies were doing the 'predator' control by air in Northern BC.

That was when we had 174,000 hunters and a total population of ~2.7 million.

Today we have 89,000 hunters and a total population of ~4.4 million.

It was contraversial back then. BCTV had reporters up there and planes following the pilots around and the greenies were camped out on Scoop Lake.

Back then we made up 6.4% of the population - today we make up 2% of the population.


Seems the biggest worry some days is shooting a trophy animal or opening a season up so somebody else can shoot 'my' animals???


The world runs on votes - as soon as we all get onboard with that we'll be much better off.


You guys probably didn't think I could tie hunter recruitment and retention to this did you?
:lol:

[horshur]

Hunters won't control wolves - want to control them it needs to be on-going and it needs to be done professionally.

In the 80s a couple of my buddies were doing the 'predator' control by air in Northern BC.

That was when we had 174,000 hunters and a total population of ~2.7 million.

Today we have 89,000 hunters and a total population of ~4.4 million.

It was contraversial back then. BCTV had reporters up there and planes following the pilots around and the greenies were camped out on Scoop Lake.

Back then we made up 6.4% of the population - today we make up 2% of the population.


Seems the biggest worry some days is shooting a trophy animal or opening a season up so somebody else can shoot 'my' animals???


The world runs on votes - as soon as we all get onboard with that we'll be much better off.


You guys probably didn't think I could tie hunter recruitment and retention to this did you?
:lol:

Jessie my dad was holding some office in the BCWF at the time...we got to hear alot about it.....:wink:

[steveo32]

Andy i am sure you would like to drop the hammer on a nice wolf like this! I am sure they are killing a pile of deer in your areas, the only thing you can do is start training your dogs to tree them :lol:

Nice northern wolf taking this past guide season! Notice how big my smile is. :wink:

http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w28/steveo32-hunting/145.jpg

[Will]

Nice northern wolf taking this past guide season! Notice how big my smile is. :wink:

Considering you're 7 feet tall that is a BIG wolf......:eek:
Nice ! ;)

[horshur]

So, I had coffee with a local rancher got to catch up on the local gossip.
Mostly about wolves.
Anyway my old boss had 120 or so deer a night in his hayliage last year. This year he has 10. Where they all go???? Betcha I can make a good guess.

[Will]

Where they all go???? Betcha I can make a good guess.
Me First.............:wink:
http://usera.imagecave.com/BCWILL/Yotes2006/IMG_1436.JPG

[horshur]

Another one from a couple day's ago judging sign.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y264/akdana/IMG_0639.jpg

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y264/akdana/IMG_0640.jpg

here is a "Run" an awful lot like a deer trail it seems they use these runs pretty regular. I can see how it would be possible to snare them.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y264/akdana/IMG_0637.jpg

This is all within a the same small area.

[hunter1947]

So, I had coffee with a local rancher got to catch up on the local gossip.
Mostly about wolves.
Anyway my old boss had 120 or so deer a night in his hayliage last year. This year he has 10. Where they all go???? Betcha I can make a good guess.
I know wear they went WOLVES ,its just a matter of time and you won't even see ten deer in that field ,chopper time BANG BANG :eek:.

[horshur]

More and more again.

Moose and a mule deer.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y264/akdana/IMG_0658.jpg

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y264/akdana/IMG_0657.jpg

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y264/akdana/IMG_0649.jpg

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y264/akdana/IMG_0656.jpg

[loki]

Third wolf kill in two weeks I have found. By my observation wolves are killing a deer a night.

Heh, seems your math skills aren't all that up to par eh bud? Three kills in two weeks, seven days in a week, so fourteen days total would make it one kill every 4.6 days.

Couldn't resist... :-P


Anyway my old boss had 120 or so deer a night in his hayliage last year. This year he has 10. Where they all go???? Betcha I can make a good guess.

Now I'm just playing advocate here, obviously I know Wolves need to kill to eat and live. However this statement comes after Schutzen tells of record numbers of pitlampers in your area? Could the crash in population also have something to do with record amounts of poaching? Seems easy to blaime the predators when there are other circumstances at work playing into the same outcome...

[horshur]

Heh, seems your math skills aren't all that up to par eh bud? Three kills in two weeks, seven days in a week, so fourteen days total would make it one kill every 4.6 days.

Couldn't resist... :-P



Now I'm just playing advocate here, obviously I know Wolves need to kill to eat and live. However this statement comes after Schutzen tells of record numbers of pitlampers in your area? Could the crash in population also have something to do with record amounts of poaching? Seems easy to blaime the predators when there are other circumstances at work playing into the same outcome...


If you think I have found all the kills you are giving me way to much credit......everytime I go out I find a kill.
Now you seem to miss one statement of mine. "I have never seen it like this before"
I have never posted up a pick of a wolf kill cause I never found any. My activities up in the hills are the same and perhaps even more in past years. I have lived here for 13 years and all those years have spent the same or at least similiar amount of time out there and......only once found a wolf kill so......draw your own conclusions.
And they ain't pitlamping up here. They just shoot deer and moose when they need some dog food and they ain't WASP's either.

[houndogger]

Horshur I would bet you ain't finding a 1/8th of their kills:rolleyes:

[horshur]

Wolves in town this morning within sight of the Subway among the cattle.
Been camped for almost 3 months now just above Little Fort. :-?

[Fisher-Dude]

Wolves in town this morning within sight of the Subway among the cattle.
Been camped for almost 3 months now just above Little Fort. :-?

They are getting too fat from all the game they are killing, and are going on Jared's Subway diet to shed a few pounds. New Year's resolutions and all that.....

[Jelvis]

horshur, Hows those wolves up in Little Fort are they still up around Dum Lake area? Can you hear them howl around Little Fort? Did you find deer kills this last winter around the hills? Jel-concerned about wolves

[Paulyman]

Was up in clinton last october,whenever i saw deer track wolf tracks were right on top of them every single time.One week later i was in the Christian valley and my uncle saw a deer with a wolf right behind it.

[winbuckhunter]

personally that buck looks like an OOPS... you know the 4 point or better rule gone bad... thats just my thought tho.... LOTS of wolves in 3-12 area around sucker lake on the whiteman creek main.. i was camped up there last year for a week and saw about 30.. probably a few of the same but not all.. one real nice jet black alpha male.. almost shot him.. but he looked so beautiful in the snow with the sun shinning... gorgeous animals

[horshur]

personally that buck looks like an OOPS... you know the 4 point or better rule gone bad... thats just my thought tho.... LOTS of wolves in 3-12 area around sucker lake on the whiteman creek main.. i was camped up there last year for a week and saw about 30.. probably a few of the same but not all.. one real nice jet black alpha male.. almost shot him.. but he looked so beautiful in the snow with the sun shinning... gorgeous animals


Read my post...I seen that buck alive 3-4 days previous.
And lastly with the snow it was pretty clear what killed the buck not that it really matters that is what wolves do.
The point I was trying to make and I posted several pics in succesion to prove it was that wolves were making a significant dent this past winter...significantly more that the last 15 I have lived here...

And lastly...I gave up on the thread casue I sure could have gone on. The coyotes took up where the wolves left off and the boys and I seen probably a couple dozen or more coyote killed fawns this spring hiking the hills.

[horshur]

horshur, Hows those wolves up in Little Fort are they still up around Dum Lake area? Can you hear them howl around Little Fort? Did you find deer kills this last winter around the hills? Jel-concerned about wolves

Darlington maybe 10 kms...fresh moose last week they killed the cow seems the calf made it judgeing the tracks.

[Jelvis]

Cougar, bear, wolves and coyotes, wild dogs? Getting into the deer hunting too. Moose get taken also it's a real fight to survive in the frozen bushes at night.
I guess the beatle kill didn't help either.
I'll be looking over my hunting area soon to make a personal evaluation of the carnage. Jel-at-Boulder.Mtn.Rd.