Lack of kootenay Whitey bucks!

[boyd050]

well lets see what the opinions are out there! I just spent another day out in the beautiful picture valley/ horshoe area, and couldn't help but notice ...again, I'm seeing literally hundreds of whitey does, but a real shortage of bucks, even through out the rut, a noticeable lack of good bucks, hell... any bucks. So I wonder.... is it time to look at the way white tail are hunted here? are too many of the young bucks being shot off for sausage, and not being allowed to turn into nice bucks? When it seems the doe to buck ratio is hundreds to one, something is wrong. I have noticed that even at night, you don't see them in the usual areas.. so it's not that the bucks are totally nocturnal, just seems there aren't many, I'm sure there will be guys saying "hey I got my buck" but I bet when you weigh that against all the does that I see, that's a small number. just for fun anyone who lives here in the kootenays, take a drive out the bull river, you'll see groups of does, 28-30-or more and......... no bucks... so... am I the only one who wonders if there should be a new regulation on making 4 points legal , and leave the little guys?? what do you guys say?

[chevy]

I agree with you 100% boyd050 i myself did get a good buck and to be honest i did see a few other good ones but not as many as the years past,, and your right to be honest in my opinion also for every 75 to 100 does you see a buck but only a dink buck and yes most of the time the big boys dont come out till dark and even this year as last we didnt see any really good ones so i say yes they should try to have a 4 spike and better season for sure and i my self think it should be for the last 20 days of whitetail with rifle in the kootenays,,

[mark]

Dude, its post rut! The bucks are napping! Not the best time of year for viewing bucks, and generally not hanging with the does!

[Islandeer]

For every 100 does you see there are 20 to 30 bucks hanging around. That is a fact, 4pt for whiteys?!!! What may take pressure off of the grocery supply and the amount of younger bucks taken would be an open whitey doe season for ten days. Another thing to consider is that big bucks don't get big by hanging near roads and being stupid.

[Kody94]

Its funny how peoples experiences can vary so much from year to year. I will say right up front that I would like to see a better buck to doe ratio, and having lived in the Peace for a while growing up and then again recently, I appreciated all the good bucks you see because of the 4pt regulation. That said, however, this year, in the south country I saw more bucks than I usually do. The guys in our November deer camp saw tonnes of bucks as well, and a couple decent (for the Kootenays) bucks were taken (incl a 145/150 class buck).

Last weekend I was bowhunting in the bull river area and saw a whack of little bucks running around.

Cheers,
4ster

[dana]

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that those late season whitetail bucks in the koots were acting just like the late season muleys and moose. They all hit the heavy timber. Every year that the season is tuff hunting, many jump to conclusions that there must not be any bucks left. Far from the truth. Still a ton of critters around, they are just acting very noctural and elusive right now is all. Life is pretty darn good for them. Great summer feed, easy rut, and mild early winter conditions. They don't have to feed out in the openings right now do they?

[boyd050]

Dude, its post rut! The bucks are napping! Not the best time of year for viewing bucks, and generally not hanging with the does!
I agree with you there however for the majority of the hunting season, where I used to see lots of bucks, all I saw were does, in fact all through the rut, I saw herds of does, especially in the fields on the fort steele bull river road at the base of the steeples when you would expect even a dink buck chasing them there were none, a couple years ago I used to watch them chase does there all the time because they're safe there no hunting, yet this year .. not a one.

[dana]

I agree with you there however for the majority of the hunting season, where I used to see lots of bucks, all I saw were does, in fact all through the rut, I saw herds of does, especially in the fields on the fort steele bull river road at the base of the steeples when you would expect even a dink buck chasing them there were none, a couple years ago I used to watch them chase does there all the time because they're safe there no hunting, yet this year .. not a one.

If you talk to a ton of hunters who hunted across the whole southern end of the province, you'll find that they had similiar experieces with moose and muleys in Nov and Dec too.

[Wild one]

Go to alberta and you will see a better buck to doe ratio and that is because you are allowed to harvest does on a general tag.With the buck only seasons in BC meat and trophy hunters are beating down one sex.I would like to see 4 point season and a short either sex season(not just archery)I think it would slowly fix things but this is just one mans opinion.

[mark]

I agree with you there however for the majority of the hunting season, where I used to see lots of bucks, all I saw were does, in fact all through the rut, I saw herds of does, especially in the fields on the fort steele bull river road at the base of the steeples when you would expect even a dink buck chasing them there were none, a couple years ago I used to watch them chase does there all the time because they're safe there no hunting, yet this year .. not a one.

Well I dont hunt the koots much, but all the spots I do hunt, I saw way less bucks than normal! Strange weather, lack of snow, things were a little different for sure! I still believe theres plenty of deer and bucks out there! Cant wait to start finding the sheds! :razz:

[hotload]

Hey Boyd I can attest you don't see any bucks. And it isn't cause they are scenting you. The way you go through the bush, you are Way, Way ahead of your scent. After several seasons hunting with you. All I have ever seen for a buck is that buck you pushed past me at 70 mph. For all I know he is still running. Other than that one we haven't seen any. Something ain't right.

[boyd050]

Hey Boyd I can attest you don't see any bucks. And it isn't cause they are scenting you. The way you go through the bush, you are Way, Way ahead of your scent. After several seasons hunting with you. All I have ever seen for a buck is that buck you pushed past me at 70 mph. For all I know he is still running. Other than that one we haven't seen any. Something ain't right.
maybe I shouldn't eat deer pepperonis!!!!:tongue:

[Everett]

You folks should try hunting out east my brother in NS hasn't seen a buck in two years. Personally my wife and I saw in excess of 100 whitetail bucks hunting in the EK this year. My personal opinion is there is too many whitetails in the East Kootenays when you go for a drive in October and see over a hundred deer from your car there might be an over population problem which might explain the lack of quality bucks. Mind you I got a decent 5X5 and the wife got a 5x4 without too much effort so I don`t know if I really believe my own argument. Maybe people just have to get out and do a little walking. Also alot of hunters are from out of area and seem to congregate is certain areas which get hunted hard.

[GoatGuy]

well lets see what the opinions are out there! I just spent another day out in the beautiful picture valley/ horshoe area, and couldn't help but notice ...again, I'm seeing literally hundreds of whitey does, but a real shortage of bucks, even through out the rut, a noticeable lack of good bucks, hell... any bucks. So I wonder.... is it time to look at the way white tail are hunted here? are too many of the young bucks being shot off for sausage, and not being allowed to turn into nice bucks? When it seems the doe to buck ratio is hundreds to one, something is wrong. I have noticed that even at night, you don't see them in the usual areas.. so it's not that the bucks are totally nocturnal, just seems there aren't many, I'm sure there will be guys saying "hey I got my buck" but I bet when you weigh that against all the does that I see, that's a small number. just for fun anyone who lives here in the kootenays, take a drive out the bull river, you'll see groups of does, 28-30-or more and......... no bucks... so... am I the only one who wonders if there should be a new regulation on making 4 points legal , and leave the little guys?? what do you guys say?


I suppose a better question would be, is this different from what you've seen in the past?

Do you normally harvest big bucks?

Or do you want to harvest big bucks?

Got a buddy that lives just off the bull and has plenty of good wt bucks running around - shot a mid 160s two years ago and screwed up on a booner last year. He hunts on crown land and says there's more deer and elk than he's seen since the 80s. He also said the size of bull elk hasn't been that good in the EK since he can remember.

[ARC]

I usually do an east kootenay whitetail hunt every year, but decided to go up north this year instead. However, my hunting partner went over in November and said he saw far less bucks than usual. I think it was just a wierd year. According to him, the elk were far more vocal than usual also for that time of year, bugling throughout the day, this was the november long weekend.

[chevy]

There is no shortage of elk but it is weird this year i dont road hunt i work for my whitetails and i work hard but honestly it was a different year for sure and yes i got a good buck but to be honest i never seen even close to as many bucks this year as years past,, and yes the bull river is a good area for whitetail for sure in late november because 75% of the whitetail migrate to that area so you are going to see many more than usual,, but this year was different the weather played a huge roll in the whitetail activity, and the rut to me started a little later than usual also thats just my opinion

[boyd050]

[quote=GoatGuy;218966]I suppose a better question would be, is this different from what you've seen in the past?

Do you normally harvest big bucks?

Actually it is different from the past few years, I don't like to road hunt, the deer I speak of in the fields I see to and from my areas, I put a ton of sweat in my hunting boots this year, it was just different. I took a relatively nice buck a few weeks ago, up by premier, where I noticed a lack of bucks as well. anyway, good to hear different perspectives!! and your right I do think we have an over population of whiteys... but I won't complain too much!! just wish there were a few more bucks running around!!!:smile:

[Ddog]

i agreee that there isnt as many quality WT bucks as i have seen in the last 2 yrs,, but the weather did in fact have a huge role to play with that, i seen some real nice bucks just not as many.
the rut came late and i happen to time it perfectly for my holidays.
Mark,, it isnt really post rut here, if anything it is secondary rut, just this laste week i have seen at least 5 different bucks chasing does. In the last 3 nights of hunting i have seen at least 1, 140 class buck each night. compared to several at this time last year.
Fact is there just isnt as many decent Bucks as there has been in the past, but ,,, i did see a few brought in that were big ol deer.

[6616]

There are a lot of White Tailed deer in the East Kootenay, probably too many. We need to shoot more does to get the population under control, the numbers cannot be corrected by shooting only bucks. Due to years of "buck only seasons" the buck/doe ratio has never been very good. On top of that, don't forget we had a pretty hard winter in 06/07 and that may have effected antler sizes, but the truth is I'm seeing the local guys bringing in a good (normal) number of big bucks.
I'd never support a 4pt horn regulation on WTD personally! They are the only species left that we can hunt without antler/horn restrictions or LEH. Elk (6pt), sheep (full curl), goats and moose (LEH), Mule deer (4pt). We seem to be managing for trophy quality with most species, WTD have become the "bread and butter" species for non-trophy meat hunters, leave the regs the way they are and correct the situation by shooting more does IMO. We could stand a 10 day GOS on does in many of the EK MUs.

[eastkoot]

There are lots of whitetail here in the Kootenays and the number of bucks, I don't think, have changed alot in the 40 years I've been here. Big whitetails are hard to find at the best of times. There seems to always be a "meat" buck if you want to shoot one..Shooting more does won't change things at all. Leave well enough alone and enjoy looking for the elusive BIG buck if that's you're thing but because you can't find a big buck, doesn't mean we have to kill more flat tops.

[boyd050]

I tend to agree with the 10 day GOS whitetalil does season suggestion. I think it may take some of the pressure off the bucks a bit but who knows!! they make as good a table fare,if not better than the bucks anyway!!! I just got mine back from the butcher, had a lot of jerky, pepperoni and breakfast sausage done up its' awsome!!!!

[Fisher-Dude]

Big whitey bucks are one of the toughest animals to hunt and find. Whitetails are very good at adapting to their environment, and I think the logging and other development may have changed some of the big guys' habits over the years. Just because you don't see one doesn't mean they aren't there...they are very nocturnal animals.

I've hunted whities before over there, and have never had a problem seeing bucks. And remember, when you see the does standing in the cut looking at you, you don't realize who's inside the edge of the timber laughing at you as are distracted by his ladies. :wink:

If we were to consider any doe season, it should first and foremost be a youth season. A 4 point season on whitetail would do nothing but kill off hunter numbers and further threaten the future of our sport. Managing whitetails for trophy animals would be a huge mistake IMO.

[bosch]

I think they should increase the amount of LEH doe tags to fufill everyones pepperoni deer needs, there must be a sh*% load of dry does out there taking up space, I myself got a buck but definitely saw way more does, make the buck season 4 point or better and clean out some of the does...I agree with this thread!

[J_T]

Gentlemen (and ladies), I didn't bother to read the posts after the first two. And I'm sure a few of you have weighed in with some good information.

Perhaps this thread has taken a different direction. I will respond to the first thread only.

This thread was started yesterday. If you really think that this year, you saw few bucks and few quality bucks. Give your head a shake, buy new binoculars and go back out there and look somewhere else.

Cause I'm here to tell you, this year was like no other. Bucks every day, quality big whities. Yes, post rut.

Managing our doe population will result in a better buck scenario. But those solutions need time to think about. Youth, Seniors areas. Consider vehicle collission.

You know what, those big boys, are in the same places we used to find them in the 60's. I just came in from 10 days of the absolute best quality hunting.

[boyd050]

Well I'm glad you did so well, though I still maintain that in the areas I USUALLY see good bucks or even dink bucks I didn't see them, I watched herds of deer for hours... in the past bucks of all sizes were chasing does, not this year... Ps,,, have good binoculars!!! and heads fine!!!:roll:

[quote=J_
If you really think that this year, you saw few bucks and few quality bucks. Give your head a shake, buy new binoculars and go back out there and look somewhere else.

.[/quote]

[Fisher-Dude]

I just came in from 10 days of the absolute best quality hunting.

JT, ya gonna post some pics and stories in the bow section for us? :)

[J_T]

Boyd. I'm sure everything is right. I was just suffering the exhilaration of a good hunt.

We saw good bucks everyday and lots of them. But I'm not worried about bucks. I'll take anything legal. The bowhunter can take two does in this area and so we do.

[boyd050]

Good on ya!! don't get me wrong, I've had an AWSOME year too, had a ball chasing and getting my cow elk with my bow, got a buck with my rifle, missed 2 does with my bow....... still smiling!!!! just really wondered if I had "BUCK REPELLANT" on this year! today I saw my first Real good buck this year.... today. couldn't get a poke at him!!! if I could have turned one doe out of a hundred into a buck I would have seen alot of bucks!! but this has turned into a really fun thread!!!:-D

[J_T]

FD.


JT, ya gonna post some pics and stories in the bow section for us? Well each to their own. I've had a great bowhunting season this year. But you won't read about it or see pics on here. Not that I'm trying to keep anything from anyone. My personal choice.

As a rifle hunter I never took pics of kills. I didn't like the idea of it. As a bowhunter I do take pics, both because the kills are fewer and farther between and also because there is so much more goes into a bow kill. But I don't show the pics around. :lol:

[brotherjack]

I quit reading after about the first three posts.

All I can say is - No whitetail bucks in the Kootenays? What are you talking about!?!? Me and my various friends saw (and shot) more and better whitetail bucks in the east Kootenays this year than ever before. There were less bucks running around in the open cuz it was warm and no snow, but there was piles of them around. I'm not aware of anyone I know who shot anything smaller than a mature 5 point or bigger whitetail, and all but one of them were shot within 30 minutes drive of Cranbrook city limits, and all of them less than 500 yards from a road - we're not talking about secret spots two days drive back in the thick timber - we're talking about plenty of bucks hanging around in hard hunted areas. We don't need a 4 point season for whitetails - we need a two buck limit instead of one (especially for those of us who, like me, are apparently to stupid to successfully hunt elk).

[model88]

Well this thread has me chuckling, I didn't get out as much as usual. Saw lots of buck, some big, some little. Saw a 4x4 that should score over 150, taken with a bow. Pics of numerous bucks taken by people I know or work with, when I dropped mine off at the butcher in Fernie, he was packed full of whitetails.

It may come as a suprise too some, but deer do move, change habits, home turf etc:biggrin: Ya gotta be able to adapt. But if you think there aren't enough bucks and you wanna try hunting somewhere else, well thats ok too;-)

[6616]

I quit reading after about the first three posts. - we need a two buck limit instead of one (especially for those of us who, like me, are apparently to stupid to successfully hunt elk).

Current bag limit for deer in Region 4 is 2 deer.
Mule deer bag limit is 1. WTD bag limit is 2, but only one can be a buck, so in effect the WTD bag limit is really only 1 unless you can legally harvest a doe in the Sr/Jr or archery seasons or have an antlerless LEH authorization.

So if you do harvest a doe, you have to choose between a MD and WTD buck (not both) since you cannot exceed the regional bag limit of 2.

What do you guys think of going to a three deer bag limit for the East Kootenay: MD bag limit remaining at one, WTD bag limit 2, only one of which may be a buck?

The three deer bag limit would encourage WTD doe harvest since you could still shoot your buck or a MD even if you use a WTD doe LEH authorization, or if you are a Jr/Sr or bow hunter, or if we were to ever have a short doe GOS.

I realize shooting does goes completely against the grain for some hunters, but population control for WTD is needed in some MUs and this cannot be accomplished by buck harvests alone.

[brotherjack]

So if you do harvest a doe, you have to choose between a MD and WTD buck (not both) since you cannot exceed the regional bag limit of 2.

What do you guys think of going to a three deer bag limit for the East Kootenay: MD bag limit remaining at one, WTD bag limit 2, only one of which may be a buck?

The three deer bag limit would encourage WTD doe harvest since you could still shoot your buck or a MD even if you use a WTD doe LEH authorization, or if you are a Jr/Sr or bow hunter, or if we were to ever have a short doe GOS.


I would be 100% in favour of that idea, myself. There are deer EVERYWHERE around here - to the point of being a general nuisance - harvesting a few more would be a Good Thing (tm). And given that (currently) Jr/Sr, LEH holders, or bowhunters are the only ones who would be able to take advantage of that third deer tag - the rise in harvest numbers would be minimal. If the bean counters say a GOS doe season would be sustainable, that would be OK by me as well.

Where do I sign the petition to make it happen? :)

[brotherjack]

Current bag limit for deer in Region 4 is 2 deer.
Mule deer bag limit is 1. WTD bag limit is 2, but only one can be a buck, so in effect the WTD bag limit is really only 1 unless you can legally harvest a doe in the Sr/Jr or archery seasons or have an antlerless LEH authorization.


Correct me if I'm wrong - but a LEH doe or a Jr/Sr season doe counts against your bag limit, which would mean that you've taken your 1 legal WTD during the rifle season if you tagged a doe under either of those circumstances. The only legal way to harvest two whitetail deer in the Kootenays is to take one with a bow during a bow season - LEH's or Jr/Sr would not qualify for two WTD. At least that was my understanding - am I incorrect???

Thanks,

[6616]

[quote=brotherjack;219283]Correct me if I'm wrong - but a LEH doe or a Jr/Sr season doe counts against your bag limit, which would mean that you've taken your 1 legal WTD during the rifle season if you tagged a doe under either of those circumstances. The only legal way to harvest two whitetail deer in the Kootenays is to take one with a bow during a bow season - LEH's or Jr/Sr would not qualify for two WTD. At least that was my understanding - am I incorrect???

I believe you can take a doe in the Jr/Sr or bow season or on an LEH and still shoot another WTD which "has" to be a buck, the WTD bag limit is 2.

The regional bag limit is also 2 so in the above case you've tagged out and you cannot hunt Mule deer.

Even thought the WTD bag limit is two you can only take one if you want to hunt Mule deer and not exceed the regional bag limit of two.

My concept of the three deer bag limit is so one could take a WTD buck and then if qualified take a WTD doe as well, and then still be able to hunt mule deer.

[Kody94]

My concept of the three deer bag limit is so one could take a WTD buck and then if qualified take a WTD doe as well, and then still be able to hunt mule deer.

I'd support that. Heck, I'd even support having to take the doe first :) , but of course that would never fly with most....

Cheers,
4Ster

[boyd050]

Personally I would be in favour of that, I do think we see a very large wtd population, The numbers of white tail does far exceeds the number of bucks ratio, and that was my point.. there are literally hundreds and hundreds of them everywhere... compared to the number of bucks.I really think we need to take that into consideration, especially if we keep having warm,low snow winters. The number of does with 2 and three fawns this year was obvious too. so why not, if the numbers support it, do a short gos wt doe, AND be able to get a buck, and a Muley buck. chances are alot of people wouldn't take a doe anyhow, but some would. so I don't think we have to worry about a overhunting issue. besides.... if the population keeps growing they'll all be moving into town like so many have!! or..... become caddys for the golfers.. they keep building golf courses here, and on a lot of them are on traditional wintering grounds!!!!

[Kody94]

Whitetails are a lot like rats and cockroaches....you won't be able to kill enough to make a significant difference. There is tonnes of great habitat out there....it'll take another deep snow winter like 1996/7 to make a dent, and then they still rebound pretty quickly.

Although I didn't have an issue with the number of bucks out there this year, I do think there are too many of them in general, and would also like to see the buck/doe ratio in better balance.

Cheers,
4Ster

[brotherjack]

Correct me if I'm wrong - but a LEH doe or a Jr/Sr season doe counts against your bag limit, which would mean that you've taken your 1 legal WTD during the rifle season if you tagged a doe under either of those circumstances. The only legal way to harvest two whitetail deer in the Kootenays is to take one with a bow during a bow season - LEH's or Jr/Sr would not qualify for two WTD. At least that was my understanding - am I incorrect???

I believe you can take a doe in the Jr/Sr or bow season or on an LEH and still shoot another WTD which "has" to be a buck, the WTD bag limit is 2.


After reading the fine print on my wife's successful WTD LEH's in years past, I am 100% sure that if you harvest a WTD doe under the LEH, it counts against all applicable bag limits, which means that you can NOT legally harvest a second WTD in the east Kootenay's (buck or otherwise) unless hunting in a season with a bag limit greater than 1 - which in this case would mean archery season only. I'm fairly certain that Jr/Sr and Youth hunters would fall under the same guidelines.

Also relevant - after a friendly disagreement with a friend, I picked up the phone and had a long talk with the folks in Victoria last year, because the regulations stated that "Despite regional bag limits", you could take two WTD in archery season. I took this to mean, that the second deer taken in archery season would not count against the 2 deer agregate limit in Region 4 and I could take two whitetails and a mule deer, so long as I took one of the whitetails with my bow during bow season when the bag limit for WTD was 2. I was informed that while they agreed the wording was confusing, that I was incorrect, and the "regional bag limit" being referred to in the regs was the limit of 1 WTD for the eastern part of the Kootenay region. So, unless something has changed this year - the bag limit for WTD in the EK is only 1 deer period, with archery season being the only exception.

Again - someone smarten me up if I'm wrong - I'd love to be wrong in this case. :)



The regional bag limit is also 2 so in the above case you've tagged out and you cannot hunt Mule deer.

Even thought the WTD bag limit is two you can only take one if you want to hunt Mule deer and not exceed the regional bag limit of two.

My concept of the three deer bag limit is so one could take a WTD buck and then if qualified take a WTD doe as well, and then still be able to hunt mule deer.

Yeah, I'm clear on the regional limit of 2 deer - 2 deer is 2 deer, no matter if it's whitetail or mule deer. I'm also right with you on that last statement there - that would be my concept as well, and I'd be all for it.

[brotherjack]

if the numbers support it, do a short gos wt doe, AND be able to get a buck, and a Muley buck.

I'm 100% in favour of dropping the 2 deer agregate limit in Region 4. A GOS WT doe season, I'd like someone who knows what they're doing to do a little bean counting to be sure it was a reasonable idea, but presuming the bean counting results were favourable - I'd be all for it. I'm always strongly in favour of more hunting opportunities, so long as the opportunity doesn't create overharvest situations.

[J_T]

Also relevant - after a friendly disagreement with a friend, I picked up the phone and had a long talk with the folks in Victoria last year, because the regulations stated that "Despite regional bag limits", you could take two WTD in archery season. I took this to mean, that the second deer taken in archery season would not count against the 2 deer agregate limit in Region 4 and I could take two whitetails and a mule deer, so long as I took one of the whitetails with my bow during bow season when the bag limit for WTD was 2. I was informed that while they agreed the wording was confusing, that I was incorrect, and the "regional bag limit" being referred to in the regs was the limit of 1 WTD for the eastern part of the Kootenay region. So, unless something has changed this year - the bag limit for WTD in the EK is only 1 deer period, with archery season being the only exception.

Again - someone smarten me up if I'm wrong - I'd love to be wrong in this case.

My interpretation.
The regional bag limit for deer in Reg 4 is 2. This can be either 2 whitetail, or 1 WT and 1 Mule Deer. In East Kootenay, to make the 2 whitetail, one must be taken under an LEH, or during the bow only season.

If you hunt in the Archery only season, you are allowed 2 does. (in East Kootenay)

[brotherjack]

My interpretation.
The regional bag limit for deer in Reg 4 is 2. This can be either 2 whitetail, or 1 WT and 1 Mule Deer. In East Kootenay, to make the 2 whitetail, one must be taken under an LEH, or during the bow only season.

If you hunt in the Archery only season, you are allowed 2 does. (in East Kootenay)


Archery season - yes, but LEH, no! I am just certain that the WTD LEH's my wife often gets state very clearly, that LEH animals count against your bag limit - which in this case is 1 for all non-archery season hunting. So no, you could not take a LEH doe and also take a second whitetail (in the East Kootenay), unless the second deer was taken during archery season. The bag limit is 1 WTD in the east kootenay, with Archery season being the sole exception.

If you know of some place in the regs that says otherwise - please, let me know! As I said, I'd love to be wrong right about now. :)

I'm going to go see if I can't dig up one of The Wife's old LEH's and verify I'm not crazy in what I remember reading...

[brotherjack]

From this years LEH synopsis, page 3:


A LEH authorization does not permit a person
to exceed the regular hunting season bag limit
of any species of game. Provincial and regional
bag limits still apply, as shown in the 2006/2007
Hunting and Trapping Regulations Synopsis.

[6616]

If you know of some place in the regs that says otherwise - please, let me know! As I said, I'd love to be wrong right about now. :)

See top of page 48 in the current huntiung regs:
In the WK the WTD bag limit is 2, only one of which may be a doe.
In the EK the WTD bag limit is 2, only one of which may be a buck.

[brotherjack]

See top of page 48 in the current huntiung regs:
In the WK the WTD bag limit is 2, only one of which may be a doe.
In the EK the WTD bag limit is 2, only one of which may be a buck.

Hrmm... I missed that little change. Last year's said the bag limit was 1.

However, still, the only situation I see under which a second WT may be legally harvested in the EK is during archery season; which means that for all intents and purposes, what I've been saying is still correct, the bag limit is effectively 1, except for the archery season.

Correct? Or not?

[mark]

Hrmm... I missed that little change. Last year's said the bag limit was 1.

However, still, the only situation I see under which a second WT may be legally harvested in the EK is during archery season; which means that for all intents and purposes, what I've been saying is still correct, the bag limit is effectively 1, except for the archery season.

Correct? Or not?

What if someone had a LEH doe draw??? That would be a second deer with a rifle!

[brotherjack]

What if someone had a LEH doe draw??? That would be a second deer with a rifle!

But, having a LEH doe draw does NOT qualify you to shoot a second whitetail!!! It only qualifies you to shoot a doe as part of your bag limit (which for all seasons outside of bow season, is 1 - so the doe would be it).

[Fisher-Dude]

But, having a LEH doe draw does NOT qualify you to shoot a second whitetail!!! It only qualifies you to shoot a doe as part of your bag limit (which for all seasons outside of bow season, is 1 - so the doe would be it).

Nope. With an LEH or youth/senior season, you can plunk 2 WT.



Deer: The aggregate bag limit in the Kootenay

Region is two. The bag limit for mule (blacktailed)
deer is one. The bag limit for white-tailed
deer in MUs 4-8, 4-9, 4-14 to 4-19, 4-27 to 4-33,
4-38 and 4-39 is two, only one of which may be
antlerless. The bag limit for white-tailed deer in
MUs 4-1 to 4-7, 4-20 to 4-26, 4-34 to 4-37 and
4-40 is two, only one of which may be a buck.
(antlerless white-tailed deer may only be harvested
during the bow only season,
youth/senior season or the LEH season.

[brotherjack]

Nope. With an LEH or youth/senior season, you can plunk 2 WT.



Deer: The aggregate bag limit in the Kootenay

Region is two. The bag limit for mule (blacktailed)
deer is one. The bag limit for white-tailed
deer in MUs 4-8, 4-9, 4-14 to 4-19, 4-27 to 4-33,
4-38 and 4-39 is two, only one of which may be
antlerless. The bag limit for white-tailed deer in
MUs 4-1 to 4-7, 4-20 to 4-26, 4-34 to 4-37 and
4-40 is two, only one of which may be a buck.
(antlerless white-tailed deer may only be harvested
during the bow only season,
youth/senior season or the LEH season.



I hate to be argumentative - but I'm still not seeing it. That which you quoted is just a footnote to the 2 deer limit that gives notice of the only times you can legally take an antlerless whitetail - it doesn't say anything about extending the bag limit for LEH, Jr/Sr season hunters.

???

[Kody94]

Boy, you guys are making this confusing.

Here's how I understand it:

Aggregate limit is 2. Assuming you don't shoot a mule deer, that means two WTs are OK, as long as you don't exceed the bag limit for the particular season.

So, in the EK, if you shoot a doe in the early archery season, the junior/senior season, or with an LEH, you can still hunt another whitetail in the GOS (which would have to be a buck), or the late archery season (which could be a buck or your second doe).

So, technically, the way I read it you can shoot two whitetails with a rifle (junior/senior or LEH, AND GOS). Or two with a bow, or one with each. :D

I think the part that may be tripping you up is the bag limit by season (by MU, etc). The only one that sometimes makes me wonder is the LEH as I don't really consider it as its own season....but technically it is.

Am I wrong? Or did I miss your point?

Cheers,
4Ster

[6616]

I think you've got it right SSSSter.

[RMG]

:confused: OMG, you guys make this confusing, so confusing I think Im confused now, and that has me really confused as I am not easily confused. :confused:

[6616]

This amount of confusion is a good reason why the regulations should be simplified.

[RMG]

In the EK, if you hunt with a bow you are allowed to harvest TWO whitetail antlerless deer during the Bow Only Seasons.

[mark]

I hate to be argumentative - but I'm still not seeing it. That which you quoted is just a footnote to the 2 deer limit that gives notice of the only times you can legally take an antlerless whitetail - it doesn't say anything about extending the bag limit for LEH, Jr/Sr season hunters.

???

Anyone who is still confused should re-read the clip of the regs that FD posted! Its crystal clear to me, read it a few times, especially the last 4 lines!

[J_T]

Hey, even the CO's were confused when we talked to them about it.

FD has posted the critical piece; it states it clearly (well sort of clearly)

SSSSter has summarized it correctly.

Most importantly 6616 is absolutely correct. That's why the regs need simplifying.

[Fisher-Dude]

I hate to be argumentative - but I'm still not seeing it. That which you quoted is just a footnote to the 2 deer limit that gives notice of the only times you can legally take an antlerless whitetail - it doesn't say anything about extending the bag limit for LEH, Jr/Sr season hunters.

???

In the West Koots you can shoot two whitetail bucks or a WT buck and a WT doe. In the East Koots, you can shoot a doe under LEH/archery/senior-youth and a buck under GOS, or your second doe may be taken under archery. That's it.

The limit for whitetailed deer in the Kootenays is TWO. You need to utilize the seasons in your area properly to harvest the two whitetails.

If you don't have an LEH/hunt with bow/are young or old in the East, you can only shoot one whitetail buck and no doe.

There's nothing about "extending" a bag limit. Not sure where you are getting that thought from. The regional bag limit for ALL deer in region 4 is TWO, and cannot be extended beyond that in any way.

[brotherjack]

There's nothing about "extending" a bag limit. Not sure where you are getting that thought from. The regional bag limit for ALL deer in region 4 is TWO, and cannot be extended beyond that in any way.

The reason I mention "extending" the bag limit, is because the bag limit for WT deer in the EK for all seasons other than archery is ONE (see page 50 of the regs)! An LEH or Jr/Sr WT COUNTS AGAINST THAT BAG LIMIT!!! So if you shoot a doe under LEH or Jr/Sr, and the bag limit is one - then I totally fail to see how you can legally shoot a second deer if there is not extension to your bag limit making allowance for just that. It looks crystal clear to me...

[Kody94]

Here are some scenarios...these are for the EK only. Each scenario assumes that you have NOT killed a mule deer in Region 4. I am using the term doe synonymously with "anterless":

- If you kill a buck during the early archery season, you cannot hunt whitetails during the GOS. During the late archery season you can take a doe.

- If you kill a doe during the early archery season, you can hunt for a buck during the GOS. If you do not take a buck during the GOS, you can hunt for a buck or a doe during the late archery season.

- If you kill a doe during the Youth/Senior Season, or on an LEH, you can hunt a buck during the GOS. If you do not take a buck, you can still hunt for a buck or a doe during the late archery season.

- If you take a buck during the early Youth Season, you can hunt a doe during the Youth/Senior season, or during the early or late archery seasons. (eg. same "youth" hunter can pull the trigger on a buck on Sept 1 AM, and fling an arrow at a doe on Sept 1 PM, or take one during the Youth/Senior season with any legal "weapon", or fling an arrow at one during the late archery season).

- In either of the archery seasons (early or late, or combination thereof), you can fill both tags, provided that only one is a buck and that you did not kill a WT in any of the other seasons (Youth, Youth/Senior, GOS).

IF you do kill a MD, you can only take one WT, buck or doe, provided that it is during one of the legal seasons above.

I am sure there are other iterations, but does that sound about right to all?

Cheers,
4Ster

[Kody94]

So if you shoot a doe under LEH or Jr/Sr, and the bag limit is one - then I totally fail to see how you can legally shoot a second deer if there is not extension to your bag limit making allowance for just that. It looks crystal clear to me...

No offence intended whatsoever, but I don't think you are reading these posts very carefully.

It is because the bag limit for the Youth/SR season is 1 (one), AND the bag limit for the GOS is 1 (one). They are two separate seasons. The LEH season also has a bag limit of 1 (one).

IE. you can take one in each season, as long as you don't exceed the regional bag limit.

There is no specified limit on non-archers...as long as you qualify for the other seasons (Youth/SR, or LEH), you can take two, without any extension to your bag limit.

It is confusing because the Youth/SR season and the LEH season are concurrent with the GOS, but if you keep the seasons separate in your mind its pretty simple.

Hope this helps.

4Ster

[Fisher-Dude]

On page 50 it says "See regional bag limit on page 48". I think BroJack missed that. The explanation on page 48 is for the regional bag limit - the bag limits on page 50 are specific to the SEASONS posted there only.

[bighornbob]

Man do some of you guys really make things confusing or do not read the whole regs. The regs say, page 48, Regional bag limit of 2. That means a max of 2 deer killed in the region no matter how you slice it. If you kill a mulie, you are only allowed to kill one whitetail.

It also says only one whitetail buck can be killed. So if you want to kill two whitetails, one has to be a doe killed during the bow season, youth/sr season or under LEH.

It is pretty clear cut to me.

BHB

[J_T]

It is pretty clear cut to me.

BHB Yah, but we don't want it to be too clear. To many guys will show up to take advantage of the opportunity.:wink:

[eastkoot]

The bag limit for white-tailed
deer in MUs 4-8, 4-9, 4-14 to 4-19, 4-27 to 4-33,
4-38 and 4-39 is two, only one of which may be a doe.


Bighorn
I see nothing about being limited to 1 whitetail buck in the above MU's, however only 1 may be a doe provided it is taken during a legal doe season (LEH,senior, etc). Yes, 2 deer total for region 4.

[hunter1947]

The area where i hunted in the EK ,i saw lots of bucks ,almost as many bucks as does ,i think it depends on what area you hunt. Sure there might be more does in one area then others ,but overall i don't think there is a shortage of bucks in all.

[Nooker77]

I used to hunt settlers road alot in early Sept. while elk hunting..it was nothing to see 200 WT does in an eve!! It was Hard to find a good buck!! Bull river was always tough deer hunting...did see our share of bucks hanging in other camps last year!! 4pt season is a great idea along with a few more doe LEH's!! Or junior doe season..my 2 cents!

[riflebuilder]

I saw very few bucks with witey does this year. The buck / doe ratio is out of balance. I do believe that there needs to be a doe season here possibly a late season. Point restrictions are good only if they are used as short term relief the main need is to get the buck doe ratio inline.

[brotherjack]

No offence intended whatsoever, but I don't think you are reading these posts very carefully.

It is because the bag limit for the Youth/SR season is 1 (one), AND the bag limit for the GOS is 1 (one). They are two separate seasons. The LEH season also has a bag limit of 1 (one).

IE. you can take one in each season, as long as you don't exceed the regional bag limit.


Hrmmm..... I was not aware that having two (or more) separate seasons in the same MU(s) made it legal to take more than one animal in total if the bag limit in each of the relevant seasons was 1.

Is this true? Have I been wrong all these years?

[ratherbefishin]

I would suggest that a better way to evaluate the buck /doe ratio is to see how many fawns there are next spring-lots of does with fawns obviously means there were bucks around-even if they weren't seen,and conversely-lots of does without fawns means something is wrong[could be either not enough bucks or too many preditors]

[spock]

My guess would be the bucks had just gotten smart to the hunting pressure after a long GOS. In the area I hunt, I saw 7 or 8 good sized whitetail bucks feeding in a field I hunt in late August as well as about the same amount of mule deer bucks, including one monster grazing in plain sight of the highway. Went hunting September 11 to get my whitetail, by then they'd already gotten noticeably more nocturnal only coming out the last few minutes of light, I passed on a lot of four pointers trying to get a large 5 x 5 I kept seeing just past decent shooting light. I hunted for a six days and saw a good number of whitetail bucks, but didn't shoot anything, since I had a doe draw I figured I'd leave my "buck tag" for the November rut and get the big one. Went back up just before remembrance day same spot and did not even see one branch antlered buck. Finally the last day I shot a spike. We did not see any sign of rutting, although we saw lots of deer scat the size of plums, so they must have been around there. Moral of the story bucks get more secretive as the season progresses and unless you get some good rut activity that is not going to change late in the season.

[Seeadler]

Antler restrictions on WT is a horrible idea. There are tons of WT in Region 4, but bucks can be scarce (I think many yearling bucks are killed), I do not find nearly the number of sheds that I used too. It is not uncommon to see 40 or 50 WT does a day and not even see a spike buck, but given enough time, getting any buck is pretty much a sure thing.

A GOS on does would probably be a good idea, then the hunters looking for meat won't be shooting all the yearling bucks. If I had the option, my personal rule would be either a 4 point or greater buck or a yearling doe.

[Kody94]

Everyone's mileage varies.

I can understand the reluctance for an antler restriction in Reg 4. BUT, out of the last 25 years I have lived in the Peace area for 10 (7 in the 80's and 3 in the '00s) and the EK for 15 (mainly 90's and '00s). I can unequivocally say that the WT deer hunting in the Peace, despite the short season, is way better. With the 4pt restriction, there are 4 point buck all over the friggen place. They are more common than spikes, forks and three points in the EK. Anyone can shoot a little 4 point with little effort. Most bucks will be there by their second year. But the added benefit is that more bucks survive a season or two and learn a couple things and as a result survive and grow old. So you get a number of quality trophy animals taken every year. I think its a real win-win. Anyone, including meat hunters, can get a deer with a little effort and a decent chance of a trophy if thats what you're into.

The real interesting thing is that the density of deer doesn't seem that different right now. The buck:doe ratio and quality of bucks is vastly different though.

Just my 2c,
4Ster

[blackbart]

I am really confused. Some one living in the EK may be able to help. What if I don't care about whitetails and only want to focus on Muy Grande. What do I do? Should the season be something like this:
- For every two antlerless whitetails that I shoot (or fling an arrow into) I get one mule deer tag? Should help control the invasion of "rat deer".
- No mule deer tag is permitted until a person provides evidence of having erradicated the proper number of whitetails.
Just my 2 cents (hope you see the humour that was intended)

[Fisher-Dude]

SSSSter, I think you are confused. You're comparing the Dakota whitetails of the Peace with the Idaho/Northwest whitetails of the rest of BC. The Dakotas are much larger animals that are often grain fed, and get the nutrition to produce larger racks. They are different sub-species of animals.

The trophy deer seasons in the Peace have been an absolute disaster for wildlife management, as witnessed by the over-populations and winter disease/dieoffs that hit them last year. Over 90% of BC's hunters are firstly meat hunters, and only 3% of BC's hunters are true trophy hunters. It's ludicrous to think that we should endanger the health of the region 4 whitetail herd to cater to 3% of BC's hunters.

BC's mandate is to increase hunter numbers by 20,000 hunters over the next few years. That would NOT be accomplished by managing ANY populations of deer, elk, or moose for trophy hunting that appeals to only 3% of the hunting population. It's a proven fact that antler restrictions are a contributing factor to hunters leaving the sport (Zeman, 2006 - The Precipitous Decline of Hunters in the Okanagan). Do we risk losing more hunters from the 90+% of meat hunters by saddling them with 4 point WT restrictions so that 3% can chase big bucks?

By the way, I have YET to read ONE scientific study that proves that enhanced recruitment of juvenile bucks to 4 point status leads to trophy animals. Do you have such a study for us to read to back up your assertion that 4 point whitetail seasons lead to trophy populations of whitetail bucks?

[boyd050]

well I am certainly getting an education on this thread, I'm really impressed!! it's amazing how knowledable and responsible everyone on this site is! thanks everyone for enlightening me! well, today I got off work at 2 pm, and headed out with my bow and a couple of my hunting buddies.
We went out to one of our honey holes and as usual saw alot of whitey does, no bucks...BUT... I finally got a good shot at about 35 yards and took a nice wt doe. This was the finale in my hunting for 2007. I took a nice cow elk with my bow, a nice wt buck with my rifle, and this last doe with my bow. an AWESOME season, I spent more time in the bush this year just enjoying being out, than any other year.I'm now planning next year!! gotta love it!!! best of the season to everyone out there, hope you and all your family's have a great christmas!!! I'll be watching this site daily! it's become my favourite hands down!!!!!!:smile:

[hunter1947]

I am really confused. Some one living in the EK may be able to help. What if I don't care about whitetails and only want to focus on Muy Grande. What do I do? Should the season be something like this:
- For every two antlerless whitetails that I shoot (or fling an arrow into) I get one mule deer tag? Should help control the invasion of "rat deer".
- No mule deer tag is permitted until a person provides evidence of having erradicated the proper number of whitetails.
Just my 2 cents (hope you see the humour that was intended) I think that there would be enough does shot if they opened up a season on them for a short period without proving you shot two of them. The wildlife branch that is in that area would have to do some sort of survey on how many does were shot in the zones areas.:wink:

[GoatGuy]

Everyone's mileage varies.

I can understand the reluctance for an antler restriction in Reg 4. BUT, out of the last 25 years I have lived in the Peace area for 10 (7 in the 80's and 3 in the '00s) and the EK for 15 (mainly 90's and '00s). I can unequivocally say that the WT deer hunting in the Peace, despite the short season, is way better. With the 4pt restriction, there are 4 point buck all over the friggen place. They are more common than spikes, forks and three points in the EK. Anyone can shoot a little 4 point with little effort. Most bucks will be there by their second year. But the added benefit is that more bucks survive a season or two and learn a couple things and as a result survive and grow old. So you get a number of quality trophy animals taken every year. I think its a real win-win. Anyone, including meat hunters, can get a deer with a little effort and a decent chance of a trophy if thats what you're into.

The real interesting thing is that the density of deer doesn't seem that different right now. The buck:doe ratio and quality of bucks is vastly different though.

Just my 2c,
4Ster


I guess it depends if a person likes to hunt for 3 weeks or 3 months?


I guess it also depends if a person judges a hunt based on what was put into it or if it's about being able to drive around a field and shot a book buck from the truck window. The hunt, the kill or the inches?

There are more white-tail hunters in MU 8-14 than 7B will see in an entire season, same applies for several MUs in region 4 - that isn't a coincidence either.

Right across the line in Alberta the GP area they've been on an ANY DEER wt season from Sept 17-Nov 30 and they're shooting just as many big bucks as the folks in Dawson/FSJ/HH are. Seems bizarre?

Good hunters find good bucks regardless, others are often looking for gimmees.

There are plenty of 150+ wt to be had in region 4. Problem is they aren't hanging out in cutblocks, fields or on the side of the road- - you have to actually hunt for them.

[bighornbob]

As guys have stated WT's in the Koots are like rats and if one wants to get a buck you actually have to hunt them. Case in point, I was over there a 2 years ago hunting for sheep. We were pretty much fogged in most of the weeks so sheep hunting was the sh**s. On the second to last day I decided to take a meat buck if one presented itself. On the drive to a different sheep area I must have seen about 60 Wt's. I saw so many near the road it was like a game of frogger. I stopped and glassed everyone to make sure there were no spikes. All were does. In the evening, I parked my truck where I had seen the most does and walked through the brush about 300m to a steep creek gully and decided to walk the edge. It was quite foggy which made glassing tough so I didn't even bother to look ahead of me. The next thing you know I see deer booking it up the gully bottom. I raise my gun to see all are mature bucks but they are already at 300m and still running. I walk another 100m when I see a an antler tine at only 40m. I take the saftey off and step forward to see a deer with antlers as the gun goes off and he drops in his tracks. I shot a decent 4 pointer, not bad as I would have shot a spike.

So too sum it up, I walked 300m from the road and in 20 minutes of walking I saw 4 mature bucks. I would say the bucks are there, just not near the roads or feilds.

BHB

[boyd050]

Good hunters find good bucks regardless, others are often looking for gimmees.

There are plenty of 150+ wt to be had in region 4. Problem is they aren't hanging out in cutblocks, fields or on the side of the road- - you have to actually hunt for them.

Well that's some opinion, Good hunters find good bucks???? the point of this isn't to do with anyones hunting skills, it had everything to do with the fact that when your out in region 4 your going to see TONS more does than bucks..... period, When I Put this thread out there it was to see if others were noticing the same.... hundreds of does to a few bucks.. it wasn't about who could find the BIG bucks.... and frankly some of the biggest bucks I've seen come in happen to people driving along a back road... I'm never that lucky and I prefer to work for mine however.. that doesn't make someone a bad hunter.... what about the guys who can't get out and put the miles in their boots?? anyway I doubt you meant to insult anyone but.. again the point was so many does to fewer bucks THAN IN PREVIOUS YEARS.....:wink:

[Kody94]

SSSSter, I think you are confused. You're comparing the Dakota whitetails of the Peace with the Idaho/Northwest whitetails of the rest of BC. The Dakotas are much larger animals that are often grain fed, and get the nutrition to produce larger racks. They are different sub-species of animals.

The trophy deer seasons in the Peace have been an absolute disaster for wildlife management, as witnessed by the over-populations and winter disease/dieoffs that hit them last year. Over 90% of BC's hunters are firstly meat hunters, and only 3% of BC's hunters are true trophy hunters. It's ludicrous to think that we should endanger the health of the region 4 whitetail herd to cater to 3% of BC's hunters.

BC's mandate is to increase hunter numbers by 20,000 hunters over the next few years. That would NOT be accomplished by managing ANY populations of deer, elk, or moose for trophy hunting that appeals to only 3% of the hunting population. It's a proven fact that antler restrictions are a contributing factor to hunters leaving the sport (Zeman, 2006 - The Precipitous Decline of Hunters in the Okanagan). Do we risk losing more hunters from the 90+% of meat hunters by saddling them with 4 point WT restrictions so that 3% can chase big bucks?

By the way, I have YET to read ONE scientific study that proves that enhanced recruitment of juvenile bucks to 4 point status leads to trophy animals. Do you have such a study for us to read to back up your assertion that 4 point whitetail seasons lead to trophy populations of whitetail bucks?

Interesting POV, F-D. To paraphrase how I prefaced my previous comments, we all see things a little differently.

Now, I know I am not confused. I am not sure that your not though. ;)

I never stated that the trophy quality in the koots would ever rival the Peace, on an average basis at least. I quite familiar with the genetic differences, subtle as they may be. We do get some very big bucks in the EK on occassion though, so the genetic potential is there.

And while the overall habitat quality and natural nutrition levels may be greater in the Peace, in reality the difference is significantly made up for by the mild winters and large quantity of fertilized/irrigated fields in the EK.

But thats not really salient to my point anyway. Whatever the trophy potential is, it is. A big buck for this area is still a big buck for this area. I am not talking about managing for "trophy" animals, I am just talking about increasing the average size of the animals taken.

I can't quote any research that shows that the potential for B&C bucks improves with an antler restriction, and I never implied that it did. What I did say is that an antler restriction does seem to allow for a greater percentage of bucks to reach an older age class. May not satisfy a true blue "trophy" hunter any more than the status quo (only intense management and food supplementation will get you there), but it should allow the average guy to shoot a bigger (at least more points) buck on average.

I appreciate that a percentage of the hunting fraternity get frustrated with point restrictions, even when the results are positive. Guys just get frustrated if they have an unlucky year and don't cut a tag in spite of seeing lots of animals that don't quite make the grade. Often these guys are very vocal. That doesn't make them right though. :)

It seems a growing number of people are dissatisfied with the 6pt season in the EK on elk. I enjoy the heck out of it. There are way more 6pts running around out there than ever before. Its great and very fun hunting. But guys that want to fill their freezer every year get frustrated with it...and I understand. It doesn't make the 6pt season bad though! I think that keeping the 6pt season the same year after year is a mistake. We need to mix it up a bit. Open up the opportunity by switching some (or all MUs) to 3 or better, or even any bull for a season or two, then go back. Or give out a whack of LEHs for bulls less than 6 pt, so that your average guy would be likely to get one every other year or so. The possibilities are only limited by your imagination.

I also appreciate that antler restrictions do not help with retention and recruitment of hunters. That's why I am all about offering a wide range of opportunities for hunters...we all want different things from our hunting experiences and there is no reason why we can't try to accomodate everyone. People seem to like broadscale, ultra simple regulations. I don't think that is necessarily the best game management. I think you can have very specific game management strategies on an MU level without complicating the regulations beyond the capacity of the average Joe to understand them. I just think our wildlife managers are too lazy, and many old-school conservation group reps aren't open minded enough.

I am not convinced either that antler restrictions will always result in lower hunter retention and recruitment. As a for instance, whether you like the 4pt whitetail season in the Peace or not, I contend that in an average year, your average meat hunter will quite easliy fill his tag on a fat young 4pt. And I can't quote chapter and verse, but I have seen a study that indicated that 90%ish of hunters out there (mostly meat hunters, by your statistics) would take a two or 3 year old 4pt over a spike buck every time. There is 20 to 30% more meat on the slightly older buck and the "food quality" is still there.

So, I see you have some pretty strong opinions on the seasons in the Peace. I don't think they are perfect (I'd like to see them longer myself), but I do recognize some upside. Maybe you can explain to me, how you came to the conclusion that the "seasons in the Peace are an absolute disaster", supposedly evidenced by the die offs??? I don't follow. How did the season lead to the die off? We basically have a 4 month season for any buck in the EK, and yet we suffered a massive die off in a hard winter too? (96/97) Are you saying that a different hunting season would have prevented the hard winter? ;)

I also don't follow how an antler restriction in the EK would "endanger" the herd?? "Endanger" in what way?

I also fail to see how that would cater to only 3% of the hunters....again, most guys would rather shoot 4pts if they were available....provided that a lot more were available (clearly not in year 1), you'd certainly be catering to more than 3% of the population. And the 3% of hunters that want a B&C buck are going to go to Sask anyway.

So thats just MHO...and with that and $1 you can probably get yourself a cup of coffee...just putting it out there for discussion.

Cheers,
4Ster

[horshur]

I view point restrictions like a sliding scale. Same bucks killed just a year older. Just a way of deferring the inevitable.

[Kody94]

I view point restrictions like a sliding scale. Same bucks killed just a year older. Just a way of deferring the inevitable.

Agreed. Thats pretty much what I was saying. The difference is the average guy gets a bigger buck = more meat.

I know that its a effort in futility to push the point here or anywhere else. A lot of guys don't give a crap about hunt quality or trophy quality, don't want to take does and just want to blast the first yearling they see with bone sticking out of its head. ;)

I am not advocating for a 4pt restriction in the EK...I just don't get why guys get such a bee in their bonnet about antler restrictions. :)

Cheers,
4Ster.

[Kody94]

I am really confused. Some one living in the EK may be able to help. What if I don't care about whitetails and only want to focus on Muy Grande. What do I do? Should the season be something like this:
- For every two antlerless whitetails that I shoot (or fling an arrow into) I get one mule deer tag? Should help control the invasion of "rat deer".
- No mule deer tag is permitted until a person provides evidence of having erradicated the proper number of whitetails.
Just my 2 cents (hope you see the humour that was intended)

blackbart.... you should know by now that you won't cut a tag on muy grande if your shooting little bucks, or worse yet, messing around with whitey does. ;)

Cheers,
4Ster

[brotherjack]

I am not advocating for a 4pt restriction in the EK...I just don't get why guys get such a bee in their bonnet about antler restrictions. :)


Because we've all hunted six point elk and 4 point mule deer, and quite frankly, we think it sucks. Whitetail deer is pretty much sole remaining big game "easy money" hunt in the EK. We'd like to keep it that way, dang it!

[Fisher-Dude]

Interesting POV, F-D. To paraphrase how I prefaced my previous comments, we all see things a little differently.

Now, I know I am not confused. I am not sure that your not though. ;)

And while the overall habitat quality and natural nutrition levels may be greater in the Peace, in reality the difference is significantly made up for by the mild winters and large quantity of fertilized/irrigated fields in the EK.

Mild winters in the EK? Ask my brother how he likes his 10 foot high snowbanks every winter.

I am not talking about managing for "trophy" animals, I am just talking about increasing the average size of the animals taken.

Why? Do the majority of hunters want to have fewer legal animals available to shoot? Certainly not from the studies I have read. Fewer legal animals = fewer hunters, it's fact, and perhaps you are unaware of the current state of hunter numbers and what this means for the future of hunting in BC.

I can't quote any research that shows that the potential for B&C bucks improves with an antler restriction, and I never implied that it did. What I did say is that an antler restriction does seem to allow for a greater percentage of bucks to reach an older age class. May not satisfy a true blue "trophy" hunter any more than the status quo (only intense management and food supplementation will get you there), but it should allow the average guy to shoot a bigger (at least more points) buck on average.

"Does seem to allow for a greater percentage of bucks to reach an older age class" doesn't sound too scientific - more like your best guess. Show us some proof before you suggest that this is the be-all/end-all.

I appreciate that a percentage of the hunting fraternity get frustrated with point restrictions, even when the results are positive. Guys just get frustrated if they have an unlucky year and don't cut a tag in spite of seeing lots of animals that don't quite make the grade. Often these guys are very vocal. That doesn't make them right though. :)

What positive results? High populations of ungulates that can't be hunted are good for what exactly besides cougar food? And who says that bigger deer (if indeed that is the result - you haven't shown that it is) is a "positive" result for either the herd or for hunters, when the percentage of non-trophy hunters is so high? Positive for 3% of hunters perhaps.

It seems a growing number of people are dissatisfied with the 6pt season in the EK on elk. I enjoy the heck out of it. There are way more 6pts running around out there than ever before. Its great and very fun hunting. But guys that want to fill their freezer every year get frustrated with it...and I understand. It doesn't make the 6pt season bad though! I think that keeping the 6pt season the same year after year is a mistake. We need to mix it up a bit.

And why do we need a six point season when we were able to have a healthy, sustained herd of elk with 3 point season throughout the Trench, and TWICE the number of hunters 20 years ago? There is no conservation concern with Trench elk (or WK elk for that matter), and the EK elk could withstand a 3 point season every year. Indeed, 6 point season for a prolonged period was shown to be detrimental to the elk herds in the original study used to implement the current 6 point season and elk recovery plan in the EK.

Those who prefer the 6 point season are also by and large region 4 residents who can hunt those elk every day of the season - the rest of BC's hunters get a few weekend trips or a week or two of holidays to find an elk to feed their families, and their success rates suck because of it.

I also appreciate that antler restrictions do not help with retention and recruitment of hunters. That's why I am all about offering a wide range of opportunities for hunters...we all want different things from our hunting experiences and there is no reason why we can't try to accomodate everyone. People seem to like broadscale, ultra simple regulations. I don't think that is necessarily the best game management. I think you can have very specific game management strategies on an MU level without complicating the regulations beyond the capacity of the average Joe to understand them. I just think our wildlife managers are too lazy, and many old-school conservation group reps aren't open minded enough.

While accompanying the COs on a road check this year, we talked about MU specific regulations and our respective likes and dislikes. They HATE MU specific regulations, as they make enforcement a nightmare. They agreed that poaching cases are very difficult to prove unless they catch the perps with a smoking gun, and when each CO has 8,360 square kilometers to patrol, the poachers can have a hayday. They are in favour of non-MU specific seasons, and even would like to see many seasons, especially deer, synchronized between regions so that they have a fighting chance at enforcement.

I am not convinced either that antler restrictions will always result in lower hunter retention and recruitment. As a for instance, whether you like the 4pt whitetail season in the Peace or not, I contend that in an average year, your average meat hunter will quite easliy fill his tag on a fat young 4pt. And I can't quote chapter and verse, but I have seen a study that indicated that 90%ish of hunters out there (mostly meat hunters, by your statistics) would take a two or 3 year old 4pt over a spike buck every time. There is 20 to 30% more meat on the slightly older buck and the "food quality" is still there.

Maybe this will convince you that antler restrictions always result in lower retention and recruitment, quoted from the study I mentioned above:

"Meat and meat, then selective hunters often expressed difficulty in finding legal game and indicated that 4 point Mule Deer, 6 point Bull Elk and sometimes 2 point Bull Moose seasons, were extremely frustrating and decreased their participation.


These trophy seasons were likened to a cost/benefit analysis much as in business. When asked: What deters you from hunting? One respondent indicated: “Mostly the odds. Would likely hunt more but basically have a ‘realistic’ attitude about my chances of finding a ‘qualified’ specimen.” These sentiments were echoed in several surveys."


Here's the link so you can read the study yourself and bone up on the vital importance of hunter retention and recruitment taking precedence over trophy hunting:
http://peachlandsportsmen.com/declininghunters.pdf



........................

[Fisher-Dude]

So, I see you have some pretty strong opinions on the seasons in the Peace. I don't think they are perfect (I'd like to see them longer myself), but I do recognize some upside. Maybe you can explain to me, how you came to the conclusion that the "seasons in the Peace are an absolute disaster", supposedly evidenced by the die offs??? I don't follow. How did the season lead to the die off? We basically have a 4 month season for any buck in the EK, and yet we suffered a massive die off in a hard winter too? (96/97) Are you saying that a different hunting season would have prevented the hard winter? ;)

The die off in the Peace was directly linked to a harsh winter and deer populations that were close to 50% over carrying capacity. The Ministry realized their error (too late, as usual) and wanted the deer population reduced immediately. With all the animals competing for food in a bad winter, they were smacked.

The 96/97 EK die off was due to the severity of the winter and the heavy, early, crusted dump of snow that made foraging so difficult. The animals simply couldn't dig down to their food. I now ask why, 10 years later, and with way fewer hunters out there, we still need to have restrictive seasons? The herds have more than rebounded, there are fewer hunters, yet we still have one buck limits and 4 point mule deer. It makes no sense and is causing grief for agriculture and vehicle collisions. The 10 - 15 deer living in my brother's back yard in downtown Sparwood, raiding the bird feeder, should tell us something about carrying capacity and herd populations after years of restrictive seasons and lower hunter numbers.

I also don't follow how an antler restriction in the EK would "endanger" the herd?? "Endanger" in what way?

It would cause the whitetail population to explode further because the harvest would drop off and hunter numbers would further decline. I'm not sure you understand what "carrying capacity" really means. Moreover, the pressure this huge whitetail population would put on the mule deer would be a detriment to both species.

I also fail to see how that would cater to only 3% of the hunters....again, most guys would rather shoot 4pts if they were available....provided that a lot more were available (clearly not in year 1), you'd certainly be catering to more than 3% of the population. And the 3% of hunters that want a B&C buck are going to go to Sask anyway.

You want to structure seasons that cater to 18% selective and 3% trophy hunters, rather than to the 37% meat and 41% meat, then selective hunters. You want 21% of the hunters to get what they want and 79% of hunters to get discouraged. Also, when our number one goal should be the recruitment of new hunters, you want to plunk antler restrictions on them and discourage their participation so that you can shoot a 4 point. The 21% will always hunt any opportunity - we need to help keep the other 79% out there hunting, AND get some newbies on board if we want to be hunting in the future.

From the Zeman study:


"Four distinct types of hunters, with different expectations and goals, were identified in the focus group; these types were examined in the hunter surveys. According to Appendix 18, the four different types of hunters are: Meat hunters (37%), meat, then selective (41%), selective (18%) and trophy hunters (3%)."

So thats just MHO...and with that and $1 you can probably get yourself a cup of coffee...just putting it out there for discussion.

Cheers,
4Ster

........................

[6616]

See http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/fw/ds/docs/070607_HunterRecruitment-RetentionStrategy.pdf

Quote from page 6 in the section titled "Factors Effecting Retention and Recruitment":

"Hunting opportunities are more restricted now than ever in the past. Tighter restrictions on land access, increased private land, and new restrictions within municipal boundaries and regional districts have all reduced hunter opportunity. Wildlife management plans designed to produce quality animals at the expense of quantity have further reduced hunter opportunity, especially for novice hunters"

It goes on to say that restrictive regulations are even in place in some areas where agriculture depredation is severe....talk about the stupidity of some of the restrictions out there...!!!

All hunters who are concerned about the future of hunting should read this report and give the R&R Strategy full support. I consider myself primarily a trophy hunter, but we have to get over that, and start worrying about the very future of hunting in general, if the decline in hunter participation is not stopped and reversed. The Ministry in Victoria is very concerned about this and taking action, where do you think the senior/youth hunts originated from? Why do you think Victoria is promoting the GOS for elk in the West Kootenay....becuase that hunt is perfectly described in the above quote "quality vrs quantity".

[Fisher-Dude]

Again, well stated 6616, and of course providing references to on the ground studies and statistics gives a lot of validity to your point.

One thing I'd like to bring up is the definition of "quality hunts" and "quality animals". Too often in this thread, I see the term "quality hunt" or "quality buck". Managing for a subjective thing like that would be crazy - SSSSter's "quality buck" may be a 170 class animal, while a 14 year old newbie hunter would be considerng his first 2 point a "quality buck", or perhaps a meat hunter looking for some food for his family considers a young doe a "quality animal" compared to a rutted out buck. And is a "quality hunt" going out and shooting that 170 deer 10 km back and packing it out? Or is seeing that youngster or maybe a retiree shooting a young buck in a cutblock a quality hunt?

It's all quality hunting, and any animal is a quality animal if we are so blessed to get one. Saying that an animal isn't a "quality animal" shows, in my opinion, a lack of true respect for the animal's life a hunter took. Think about it.

[Husky7mm]

I for one usually feel there are TOO MANY HUNTERS. My hunt is always ajusted to other hunters around me. Here in the EK you have to "line up" to do it the hard way sometimes.I think antler restrictions are why we see a decent amount of game. Many hunters think nothing of driving thousands of k's every year to try and hit every oportunity to tag out and lot suceed. I think newbie, and seniors and youth should have a brake to keep them excited and all the other ablebodied experiance hunters should be resricted.It also would be nice to help those that have had a few "dry" years to exchange say 2 or 3 unpunched tags in for an less resrictive tag or permit simalar to an leh if they choose.
If you remove the resrictions in the GOS you will have 1 great year followed by many crappy ones.

[Fisher-Dude]

I for one usually feel there are TOO MANY HUNTERS. My hunt is always ajusted to other hunters around me. Here in the EK you have to "line up" to do it the hard way sometimes.I think antler restrictions are why we see a decent amount of game. Many hunters think nothing of driving thousands of k's every year to try and hit every oportunity to tag out and lot suceed. I think newbie, and seniors and youth should have a brake to keep them excited and all the other ablebodied experiance hunters should be resricted.It also would be nice to help those that have had a few "dry" years to exchange say 2 or 3 unpunched tags in for an less resrictive tag or permit simalar to an leh if they choose.
If you remove the resrictions in the GOS you will have 1 great year followed by many crappy ones.

Too many hunters? In the 80s there were 176,000 hunters, unrestricted hunts, and sustainable populations. Now, there are 86,000 hunters, restricted hunts, and considerable crop depredation and vehicle collisions.

Have you bothered to read the two studies quoted above? Do you realize that if we don't recruit and retain more hunters that we won't be hunting AT ALL???

[6616]

In the 1970s when there were 170,000 hunters and the BCWF had 40,000 members, hunters had some real clout in Victoria. That clout has steadily diminished with the decline in hunter participation. The decline in hunter numbers since the mid 1970 is about 50%. Today the average age of BC resident hunters is closing in on 50 years of age. That means the decline in hunter numbers will accelerate since the current recruitment rate is a great deal less than the current die-off rate and in thirty years we will be at the complete mercy of PETA.

Not meaning to be disrespectful but IMHO it's a big mistake to place current satisfaction levels, antler size, and success rates ahead of recruitment unless one doesn't care if his/her grandchildren will have the same opportunity to enjoy hunting that we have.

I know very few people old enough to have been out there hunting in the mid 1970s when we had 170,000 hunters in BC, 27% of all hunting effort in BC was exerted in the EK, every wide spot on every road had 10 camps in it, and we were killing 1700 bull elk every year, that doesn't wish we could have those good old days back again.

[Fisher-Dude]

I was one of those camped there in the 70s and 80s with all the other guys. Each year we usually took a moose or an elk, or both, in our camp of 4 hunters. The other camps did quite well too. There was always game all over the place despite all the hunters and the level of harvest. There was a LOT of comraderie between the camps, and I made some lifelong friends with those guys. I even remember a couple of fellows throwing on their packboards and helping my brother and I pack a bull elk I'd shot out of a $hithole. They wouldn't take any meat, just drank a couple of rums with us back at camp, and became perennial friends.

It seems different today - fewer hunters (had the whole top end of a valley to ourselves for over a week this year, only other guy I talked with was a mountain biker not a hunter), less comraderie, and a bit of a competitive attitude. Lots of animals around too - but because of antler (and species) restrictions, we weren't allowed to take one for the freezer. :(

[BCrams]

I for one usually feel there are TOO MANY HUNTERS. My hunt is always ajusted to other hunters around me. Here in the EK you have to "line up" to do it the hard way sometimes.I think antler restrictions are why we see a decent amount of game. Many hunters think nothing of driving thousands of k's every year to try and hit every oportunity to tag out and lot suceed. I think newbie, and seniors and youth should have a brake to keep them excited and all the other ablebodied experiance hunters should be resricted.It also would be nice to help those that have had a few "dry" years to exchange say 2 or 3 unpunched tags in for an less resrictive tag or permit simalar to an leh if they choose.
If you remove the resrictions in the GOS you will have 1 great year followed by many crappy ones.

Goes to show what kind of thoughts a person can have when they do not take the effort to educate themselves pertaining to wildlife management. Instead they would rather form their own off the wall opinions and pass it around.

For all those hunters who want point restrictions, restrictive seasons, refusal to support GOS in previously LEH hunts (WK elk for example), should put their collective heads together and realize, you will still enjoy some of the finest trophy hunting BC has to offer for the game you wish to pursue. We need to promote hunting for the other hunters who are just happy to go out for a Sunday drive or a weekend camp or two and wanting to harvest any buck or an exciting opportunity at taking a young bull elk.

Even as a self confessed selective hunter who likes to pursue big bucks and bulls, I am throwing my full support to hunter recruitment and retention and if it means removing point restrictions, implementing GOS in previously "trophy" LEH hunts etc, I am all for it.

For those who wish to still hunt large antlered game, there will still be no shortage of them, and you can still pursue them and be successful.

Point restrictions on whitetailed deer has to be one of the most idiotic suggestions I have ever heard and I was just beside myself when I learned the bio's in 7B implemented a point restriction on whitetails. We don't need it.

[6616]

A couple years ago I was on Steamboat Mountain near Radium during the last few days of whitetail season, the deer were in full rut and activity levels were feverish.

There was several parties of young inexperienced guys out there, 19, 20, 21 year olds. They were having a ball. They didn't have the experience or know-how to harvest a 6pt elk or even a 4pt mulie and they told me how frustrated they were with those hunts. The reason they were having so much fun,,,because they knew there was a very real possibility of success and they were OK with shooting anything that was legal. If it wasn't for the whitetail hunt they would probably quit altogether but they won't because of the whitetail hunt and someday they'll accumulate the experience to harvest elk and mule deer. They were learning how to hunt, learning things they would never have the opportunity to learn if it wasn't for the whitetail season with no antler restrictions.

There were also several trucks driving around with old people in them as well, people who would not be out there pounding their butt for a 6pt elk. I met an old friend of mine who had just shot a spike buck. Him and his wife were preparing to go and retrieve it. I dragged it out to his truck for him and loaded it. He was 82 years old. This old dude is a very experienced veteran hunter who has had years of success hunting trophy elk and sheep, but that little spike meant more to him at that moment than any of those sheep and elk. It may well be the last big game he'll ever harvest.

These are some of the reasons I cannot support antler restrictions on White Tailed Deer, I'd hate to be supportive of taking the opportunity away from those young guys to learn how to hunt, or from those old guys who were just looking for a feed of venison.

Hey Fisher-Dude, I miss that comraderie from the old days as well, if you keep this up I'll have to add you to my buddy list..

[brotherjack]

Further anecdotal evidince - When I used to work in one of the local outdoor stores, I wrote a lot of licenses and tags. I would guestimate that a solid 30% or more of the licenses I wrote only bought a whitetail tag. If asked why, the answer was invariably that they hadn't harvested an elk since the six point rule came in, and somewhere along the way had gotten sick of wasting money on tags they never got to cut. I also had a significant percentage of guys who did by elk and mulie tags who would comment that they had no idea why they were wasting money on those tags because the antler restrictions meant their chances were probably close to zero, but they wanted to have the tag "just in case" they got a shot.

[6616]

I have a 14 year old grandson who has shot a whitetail buck every year since he started hunting (three years now). He shot the first two on his mother's (my daughter) tags on a junior license. Last summer he took the CORE course and this fall he shot his first deer on his own tag. He has never shot a deer bigger than a three point, but he is extremely exited and enthusiastic about hunting and is probably hooked for life.

His first was a 1x2 with antlers about 8" long, he even brought it over to my place and asked me to score it, instead I mounted it on a plaque for him. The score would have disappointed him. He also won the 270 Weatherby Vanguard the EKWA raffled off last summer, I bought $200.00 worth of tickets but it turned out to be worth every penny.

[Husky7mm]

Goes to show what kind of thoughts a person can have when they do not take the effort to educate themselves pertaining to wildlife management. Instead they would rather form their own off the wall opinions and pass it around.

For all those hunters who want point restrictions, restrictive seasons, refusal to support GOS in previously LEH hunts (WK elk for example), should put their collective heads together and realize, you will still enjoy some of the finest trophy hunting BC has to offer for the game you wish to pursue. We need to promote hunting for the other hunters who are just happy to go out for a Sunday drive or a weekend camp or two and wanting to harvest any buck or an exciting opportunity at taking a young bull elk.

I said what I think, and I made some suggestions pertianing to new, youth, and old hunters.
Who are you to label it as off the wall or misinformed? Since when was your view the only correct view?
This year my wife drew a WC bull tag, it was the best hunt I 've been on in ages. We called and it answer, just like its supposed to happen. He came right in. I would gladly go years with nothing to have results like that. It sure is'nt like that in a GOS. I work hard to make a GOS successful, sometimes it doesnt come together.Hunting isn't about killing its about hunting, right? I 'll take my chances with a restcrited season and the hopes for and leh every now and then.There are lots of hunting oportunites in BC. Why dont you guy use your education and thousands of words for stopping the dimise of hunting from the antis rather than jumping down other hunters throats everytime they don't see it your way:???::confused:

[bighornbob]

This year my wife drew a WC bull tag, it was the best hunt I 've been on in ages. We called and it answer, just like its supposed to happen. He came right in.

How big was your wifes bull, how many points and what did it score???

BHB

[Fisher-Dude]

I 'll take my chances with a restcrited season and the hopes for and leh every now and then.

You will. But try telling a kid who is looking at getting into hunting that he will have to wait 109 years to have an even chance of drawing an elk tag, and he won't be picking up his CORE manual and start studying for his test so he can elk hunt. YOU want it that way for YOURSELF - but you are totally oblivious to the threats facing YOUR and other's hunting opportunities, and by satisfying your short term wants right now, you WILL lose in the longer term.

Do we have to yell it in your face: IF WE KEEP RESTRICTING SEASONS AND LOSING HUNTERS AND NOT RECRUITING MORE HUNTERS, YOU WILL LOSE ALL YOUR RIGHTS TO HUNT EVERY SPECIES IN THIS PROVINCE!

Did you get that?

[BCrams]

I said what I think, and I made some suggestions pertianing to new, youth, and old hunters. Who are you to label it as off the wall or misinformed? Since when was your view the only correct view?

Exactly....what you think. However, should you educate yourself with the facts, perhaps your view would change for the better of hunting now and the future. Some of your thoughts are indeed off the wall.

I am not pushing 'my views'. I am pushing for the best alternatives for the future of hunting based on facts. These include removing point restrictions and also includes removal of LEH seasons such as the WK bull elk draw and other LEH hunts which are underutilized (do you realize how many hunters would love to have the opportunity to hunt their own back yard - after work, a few hours on a Sunday morning).


This year my wife drew a WC bull tag, it was the best hunt I 've been on in ages. We called and it answer, just like its supposed to happen. He came right in. I would gladly go years with nothing to have results like that.

You can get this anywhere in BC as far as calling a bull, having it answer and having it come in. Your attitude of willingly going years and waiting only hurts hunter recruitment. I would rather see a GOS on those WK elk and promote hunting for new and upcoming hunters. A scenario - a would be new hunter wants to take up hunting and hunt with his son on weekends ..... he learns that the whole area surrounding where he / she lives is under LEH and the odds of getting that draw in their lifetime is almost zero. They cannot afford to drive to the EK or up north for an extended trip - they ultimatly decide its not worth the hassle and money if they can't hunt elk.

Congrats to your wife, she was lucky and chances are good you will never get the draw in your lifetime.

It sure is'nt like that in a GOS.

Then you havn't hunted enough or hunted areas where it is. I am not talking far north of BC but the EK!

Hunting isn't about killing its about hunting, right?

Exactly, so why not get rid of the WK elk draw so all those Dad's and Son's and grandfathers, families can hunt elk in their backyard again.

There are lots of hunting oportunites in BC.

There certainly is! Why not make it more accessible and better!

Why dont you guy use your education and thousands of words for stopping the dimise of hunting from the antis rather than jumping down other hunters throats everytime they don't see it your way:???::confused:

Your attitude towards hunting and wanting to take your chances with LEH and having point restrictions WILL be the cause of hunter's demise, and when the hunter demise happens as a result of people's mentality like yours, the 'anti's' are going to be able to run all over us unless we open up opportunities across BC which include but not limited to: removing point restrictions, removing LEH hunts when we don't need them as there is no conservation concern for a particular species, removing underutilized LEH hunts, creating new opportunities where they are warranted etc.

Strength in numbers.

[horshur]

From another site you can have a read but I posted the point restrictions chapter........More mule deer related but read the posted chapter because one state saw a loss of mule deer harvest because of mule deer restrictions and a shift to whitetails instead......


http://www.createstrat.com/muledeerinthewest/harvest.html


Antler point restrictions
Creating mule deer harvest seasons with antler point restrictions is popular amongst hunters who think it will help increase the number of mature bucks and buck:doe ratios in mule deer populations. But research in many western states shows that antler point restrictions do not produce more deer or larger-antlered deer.
Colorado implemented antler point restrictions statewide for six years, and in a number of game units for seven years. The result was a shift of hunting from pressure on all age classes of bucks (primarily yearlings) to bucks two years and older, and an increase in illegal or accidental harvest of yearling bucks. The number of mature bucks did not increase over time.
Idaho and Montana implemented two points or less seasons to reduce hunting pressure on older bucks and improve buck:doe ratios at the end of hunting seasons. Over the long term, two point seasons did not improve buck:doe ratios at the end of the hunting seasons.
Wyoming’s experience with four point or better seasons resulted in fewer hunters and a reduction in total harvest, fewer mature bucks, and a significant number of deer harvested with fewer than four points.
Utah abandoned efforts to implement antler point restrictions after five years when officials documented illegal harvest, reductions in overall harvest and fewer mature bucks.



Attempts to increase the number of mature bucks and buck:doe ratios using four-point seasons in Montana reduced buck harvest by 28 percent, increased illegal harvest of bucks with 3x3 points or less by about 40 percent, and increased harvest of bucks having more than 3x4 points.

Washington tried antler point restrictions in a few of their hunting units and experienced a smaller harvest of mule deer bucks, a switch in harvest from mule deer to white-tailed deer, and no increase in the number of mature bucks. They did experience an increase in buck:doe ratios because of the lower buck harvest and improved recruitment of fawns.
Oregon abandoned antler point restrictions in a few popular hunting areas when the number of older bucks and buck:doe ratios decreased after 12 years.
Most western states have concluded that changes in buck:doe ratios and increases in the number of mature bucks can only be accomplished through reductions in harvest of bucks.

[BCrams]

Good post horshur!

All the more reason to get rid of point restrictions on deer. We just don't need them!

[brotherjack]

Hunting isn't about killing its about hunting, right?

No, it's not all about killing, not by a long shot - but hunting that doesn't result in some killing sometime before the season is over is what most of us would call an unsuccessful season. MOST of us hunt either exclusively for the meat it puts in our freezers or mostly for the meat. If your goal is meat, an empty freezer at the end of the season means you have had an unsuccessful season. Too many years of unsuccessful seasons (or failures to draw an LEH), and lots of guys (and gals) get discouraged and will eventually quit hunting. Heck, I'm an absolute hunting fanatic, but I'd sooner or later quit hunting if I had to wait years in between critters in the freezer.

Which leads us to the conclusion: "if you want more hunters, you need more successful hunters". Like it or not, it tis a fact that antler restrictions and LEH cut down on the number of successful hunters, which eventually cuts down on the number of hunters period. That's not an opinion - it just is what it is.

[KevinB]

F-D, 6616, BCRams, BrotherJack, Horshur, and others, thanks for all the great posts. And FD thanks for the 2 links. I'm finding this pretty educational. You've offered some pretty good explanations to back up your opinions of why point restrictions for deer aren't necessary.

I've really noticed the lack of new hunters out there. Even with a month of any buck muley season around here, the average new hunter, who is just getting into it and is limited to weekends (and who probably has a lot of other competing hobbies), has only a couple of days in the field to fill their tags. The likelihood of them getting something isn't that great, and it's discouraging. A longer any buck season would really help them fill a tag and get them hooked.

How about a system where one could opt to buy a single-deer hunting license that limits your provincial bag limit to one deer, but would permit much longer any buck seasons. This would be great for all the hunters or potential hunters out there who just want to get a deer and know that one is enough for them. You can buy a special QCI deer license that gives you a special bag limit, so why not something like this? All the more experienced hunters could buy a regular type of license and still be happy. Thoughts?

[Seeadler]

Since there are so many deer in the EK, what good would a 4 point season do without a GOS on does?

[Husky7mm]

I said what I think, and I made some suggestions pertianing to new, youth, and old hunters. Who are you to label it as off the wall or misinformed? Since when was your view the only correct view?

Exactly....what you think. However, should you educate yourself with the facts, perhaps your view would change for the better of hunting now and the future. Some of your thoughts are indeed off the wall.

I am not pushing 'my views'. I am pushing for the best alternatives for the future of hunting based on facts. These include removing point restrictions and also includes removal of LEH seasons such as the WK bull elk draw and other LEH hunts which are underutilized (do you realize how many hunters would love to have the opportunity to hunt their own back yard - after work, a few hours on a Sunday morning).


This year my wife drew a WC bull tag, it was the best hunt I 've been on in ages. We called and it answer, just like its supposed to happen. He came right in. I would gladly go years with nothing to have results like that.

You can get this anywhere in BC as far as calling a bull, having it answer and having it come in. Your attitude of willingly going years and waiting only hurts hunter recruitment. I would rather see a GOS on those WK elk and promote hunting for new and upcoming hunters. A scenario - a would be new hunter wants to take up hunting and hunt with his son on weekends ..... he learns that the whole area surrounding where he / she lives is under LEH and the odds of getting that draw in their lifetime is almost zero. They cannot afford to drive to the EK or up north for an extended trip - they ultimatly decide its not worth the hassle and money if they can't hunt elk.

Congrats to your wife, she was lucky and chances are good you will never get the draw in your lifetime.

It sure is'nt like that in a GOS.

Then you havn't hunted enough or hunted areas where it is. I am not talking far north of BC but the EK!

Hunting isn't about killing its about hunting, right?

Exactly, so why not get rid of the WK elk draw so all those Dad's and Son's and grandfathers, families can hunt elk in their backyard again.

There are lots of hunting oportunites in BC.

There certainly is! Why not make it more accessible and better!

Why dont you guy use your education and thousands of words for stopping the dimise of hunting from the antis rather than jumping down other hunters throats everytime they don't see it your way:???::confused:

Your attitude towards hunting and wanting to take your chances with LEH and having point restrictions WILL be the cause of hunter's demise, and when the hunter demise happens as a result of people's mentality like yours, the 'anti's' are going to be able to run all over us unless we open up opportunities across BC which include but not limited to: removing point restrictions, removing LEH hunts when we don't need them as there is no conservation concern for a particular species, removing underutilized LEH hunts, creating new opportunities where they are warranted etc.

Strength in numbers.
First I'm not saying certain things dont need to be changed

Second Holy *uc@, how did I know you'd go on. Why do I bother, you right I'm wrong, I dont hunt enough, I dont know $hit. Is this what you disire.
At this time hunting is not in danger.
Do you know why natives are getting an increase in hunting opportunitys for themselve? They bitch to the right people, not to each other.
Your response is littered with your biais to your own feelings and the company you keep. Its so long and drawn out I get board before I reach the end.Agian why not use this "talent" of yours for something useful , instead of getting in pissing contest on HSBC every chance you get, I dont have time , patience or the words to go on for hours, so lets cut it short then your a DICK have a good life.

[dana]

As a hardcore trophy hunter, I used to be all for antler restrictions. I really liked the fact that I would have the entire month of the Sept 4 point or better muley season all to myself. I really liked that I wouldn't see another boot track during the entire month and a half of the late 4 point or better season as well. But this past year, I have changed my thinking. I have come to the realization that these seasons are killing off the hunters. That might seem good in the short term. More big bucks for me right? But the more that the numbers drop, the less hunting opportunities I will see in the future as without numbers, we have no voice. I strongly support doing away with all restrictive seasons, be it LEH or point restrictions, in order to help the future of hunting within this province.

Here are a few reasons why we need to promote our hunting heritage.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v145/BCBOY/Sept12104a.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v145/BCBOY/Sept12119a.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v145/BCBOY/Nov3017a.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v145/BCBOY/oct28020a.jpg

[dana]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v145/BCBOY/IMG_0376_sm.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v145/BCBOY/IMG_0425.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v145/BCBOY/06250001.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v145/BCBOY/06250006.jpg

[6616]

Nice looking tribe of grandchildren you have there Dana. Future hunters as well I see. Good post. Those photos mean more than all the thousand words that have been written.

[BCrams]

I hope husky7mm is feeling alright from the dose of reality. :)

[dana]

My dad is the grandfather of these kids. He's the one in the first photo and the photo of the droptine muley as well. Pretty awesome that he was the one that helped my son take his first deer this fall. That's what grandpas are for. The whitetail does were taken under a youth antlerless season. The big muley buck was taken by my nephew during the Youth only season. The 4x3 muley my son got was taken during the anybuck season. Even though that buck is a legal 4 point, there is no way I wanted to be hunting the 4 point or better season with a young hunter. Would be way too discouraging. The little whitey bucks were taken during any buck season with our kids present. Not something that is easy to do when you are hunting point restrictions. The point is, we need more youth and general seasons if we want to see the hunter numbers increase. As a hard-core hunter, I definately spent a great amount of time and effort (every weekend for 2 solid months) hunting with my son this year, and I definately saw the challenges first hand with how hard it is for a kid to kill a deer. I could only imagine how hard it is for a kid that only gets out one or two weekends a year.

[Derek_Erickson]

Thats terms of a two week holiday isn't it? :twisted:



First I'm not saying certain things dont need to be changed

Second Holy *uc@, how did I know you'd go on. Why do I bother, you right I'm wrong, I dont hunt enough, I dont know $hit. Is this what you disire.
At this time hunting is not in danger.
Do you know why natives are getting an increase in hunting opportunitys for themselve? They bitch to the right people, not to each other.
Your response is littered with your biais to your own feelings and the company you keep. Its so long and drawn out I get board before I reach the end.Agian why not use this "talent" of yours for something useful , instead of getting in pissing contest on HSBC every chance you get, I dont have time , patience or the words to go on for hours, so lets cut it short then your a DICK have a good life.

[dana]

"Your response is littered with your biais to your own feelings and the company you keep."

Ain't no secret that BCrams hunts with me, so is this a slam against me too??? Hmm, the company he keeps? We are hard-core trophy muley fanatics and yet BCrams posts are going against what most trophy hunters abide by ain't they???? Trophy hunters have the notorious image of looking after only me, myself and I. Yet, Rams is suggesting a different line of thinking. Hmm, don't really see a biais (sp) to his own feelings and the company he keeps do you????

As for the rest of Husky's response, yep, I see grounds for a ban too. How bout it MODS. Lets get off your butts and enforce the rules eh?

[horshur]

I hope husky7mm is feeling alright from the dose of reality. :)


your a DICK have a good life.

Hey I thought your name was Greg? This internet you never know who your talking too. Is it true, your name really????? Dick:???:

[Elkhound]

Thats terms of a two week holiday isn't it? :twisted:

Yup it is. Keep the thread civil people.

[GoatGuy]

Some good posts there fellas.

Keep up the good work.

When it comes to regulations hunters think:

1) What will this do to ME?
2) How will this affect MY opportunity?
3) How will this affect MY success?
4) Does this season line up with MY concept of hunting?

Hunting seasons are just like a funnel.

Start at the top with an any buck/bull = 100% of hunters can and will participate - this includes all types of hunters (trophy, meat, selective)

Shorten the seasons so they don't overlap other species ie., moose/elk and you'll have yourself down to 75% really easily. (meat hunters will be the first out)

Go to antler/horn restrictions and you'll be down anywhere from 65-35% in a hurry. (killing off meat hunters)

Go to LEH and well you're on LEH and hunters will quit, period.

That's the recipe to kill of hunters.


Overall, I would say anti-hunting groups are a drop in the bucket compared to what hunters do to their own. Generally hunters don't want others in 'their spots', hunting 'their deer'. Many today want to keep other people out for 'trophy potential' but unfortunately they don't realize this alienation of other hunters will come back to bit them in the long run.


Today we have to start thinking about the future of hunting, not what 'ME' wants. It's the only hope hunting has.

[Gateholio]

Thats terms of a two week holiday isn't it?


"
As for the rest of Husky's response, yep, I see grounds for a ban too. How bout it MODS. Lets get off your butts and enforce the rules eh?

On every post there is a little triangular icon on the top rigth hand side. This is the "report a Post" feature. By clicking this, you can send a message to all the mods, and they will be alerted.

It's a very efficient method of obtaining a response by a mod, much more efficient than making a post in the thread, which may or may not be seen by a mod.:smile:

[Gateholio]

I always wondered if antler restrictions were a bad thing for trophy minded hunters. Antler restrcitions keep other hunters in the bush (in competition with each other)

Most guys want to shoot the first thing they see, pack up and go home. Migth be a good thing for the trophy hunters!:wink:

[BCrams]

Most guys want to shoot the first thing they see, pack up and go home. Migth be a good thing for the trophy hunters!:wink:

You nailed it!

[Aaron Blom]

I think the idea of opening up a either sex season would fix the problem in the south if the bag limit were to remain the same, I know personally the I have shot alot of little meat bucks the last day or to of trips for meat, would have taken a doe if it were legal.

[blackbart]

SSSSter. I am not even sure that I remenber how to cut a mule deer tag anymore. Pretty sure that I do remember how to pack one out.
However, I am also familiar with the phrase "make as many cutlets as possible and turn the rest into burger" This type of butcher order would work for whitey does wouldn't it?

You are also correct on the "won't shoot a big one if you are dealing with a little on comment."

[6616]

Discussion amongst hunters about hunting regulations is a good thing, but as someone said in an earler post, telling "each other" what we think is not really good enough if you want to facilitate any changes. For example when the Kootenay Region posted their regulation proposals on the web site did you respond?

It was reported at the last Kootenay Wildlife Harvest Advisory Committee (KWHAC) meeting that the Ministry got just over 60 responses regarding the proposal for a short GOS on three point bull elk, and the majority were against the proposal. As a result this proposal is dead in the water.
I don't believe for a minute that this is truely representative of what the majority of hunters really want, but it's what the Ministry heard so it's what they're going to do..!
This is the type of proposal could be critical for retention and recruitment.

It doesn't take any longer to post a response on a Ministry web site than it does to post a response on this web page, yet there were many more posts to this thread than there were responses to the Ministry.
To some extent the success of the retention/recruitment stratgey will depend on how active we are in making our beliefs know to the right people at the right time and in the right place.

Note the Region 7B proposals are still open for public comment.

[brotherjack]

For example when the Kootenay Region posted their regulation proposals on the web site did you respond?

It was reported at the last Kootenay Wildlife Harvest Advisory Committee (KWHAC) meeting that the Ministry got just over 60 responses regarding the proposal for a short GOS on three point bull elk, and the majority were against the proposal. As a result this proposal is dead in the water.


I certainly did put in my $0.02 - in typically long winded fashion at that (in favor of the three point season by the way).

That's just depressing that it didn't got through. Actually, never mind depressing, it's infuriating that we had more people write in against it than in favor of it when I know dang well that 90% of the hunters I know are in favor of a 3 point season (or even an any bull season).

Dang... I'm just so disgusted I don't have words for it... I guess the only thing I have left to do is to vote with my wallet, and stop elk hunting (which I'd pretty much already decided I was doing if they didn't drop the six point season - getting a six point on the ground is just a stupid amount of effort that I don't have the time or the heart to try anymore).

[hunter1947]

I certainly did put in my $0.02 - in typically long winded fashion at that (in favor of the three point season by the way).

That's just depressing that it didn't got through. Actually, never mind depressing, it's infuriating that we had more people write in against it than in favor of it when I know dang well that 90% of the hunters I know are in favor of a 3 point season (or even an any bull season).

Dang... I'm just so disgusted I don't have words for it... I guess the only thing I have left to do is to vote with my wallet, and stop elk hunting (which I'd pretty much already decided I was doing if they didn't drop the six point season - getting a six point on the ground is just a stupid amount of effort that I don't have the time or the heart to try anymore).
Tell me about it brother ,i was up there for 5 weeks and never put one down this year ,eleven years ago when they had the three point season i got my elk every year ,since then i have only taken two elk. I think that the elk have come back in good numbers sense then and the regs need to be looked at once again ,i think that the season for elk can stand a 3 point season for one week ,i hope they do introduce a 3 point season next year.

[6616]

Don't give up BJ, we just need to educate more hunters.
We'll get it on the proposal list again next year.

Thanks to all who sent in responses, no matter how you voted, participation is critical.

[6616]

The 3 pt season for 10 days seemed to be just too much, too quick, for a lot of people, next year maybe we'll try a week instead of 10 days, maybe a 5pt season for a week, maybe a 3pt or smaller season similar to the spike/fork moose (yearling season), maybe just adding the 3pt season to the Youth/Senior hunt for a year first, or keeping it under the 1100 meter elevation...lots of options.
What do you think?

[Fisher-Dude]

6616, it seems to me that the local clubs get the clout (folks who can hunt the elk EVERY day if they want), and there's a bit of a NIMBY attitude that the rest of BC's hunters (who "own" those elk just as much as locals do) have a tough time getting past. I sent mine in with a lot of research and thought towards creating opportunity wherever we can. What's the weighting in the Ministry's view of local versus out-of-region comments in these proposals?

How did the proposals get voted?

1.) Turkey any weapon
2.) WK GOS 6 point
3.) EK 3 point
4.) Creston antlerless elk
5.) Spike/fork moose GOS
6.) WK LEH bull moose
7.) Synchronization of Koot moose LEH seasons
8.) Grizzly LEH boundary changes

[Islandeer]

I am against antler restrictions, for all of the reasons so well described so far in this discussion. More " food" for thought.

In addition to increasing hunter recruitment, having seasons based on putting more healthy,steroid free,natural meat in hunters freezer's has the potential to carry more weight with the Green sentiment.

Clearly seasons based on antler size won't.

IMO continued management of antler restrictions for trophy hunting over hunter recruitment/ meat hunting will not perpetuate our hunting lifestyle for future generations.

[6616]

6616, it seems to me that the local clubs get the clout (folks who can hunt the elk EVERY day if they want), and there's a bit of a NIMBY attitude that the rest of BC's hunters (who "own" those elk just as much as locals do) have a tough time getting past. I sent mine in with a lot of research and thought towards creating opportunity wherever we can. What's the weighting in the Ministry's view of local versus out-of-region comments in these proposals?

How did the proposals get voted?

1.) Turkey any weapon
2.) WK GOS 6 point
3.) EK 3 point
4.) Creston antlerless elk
5.) Spike/fork moose GOS
6.) WK LEH bull moose
7.) Synchronization of Koot moose LEH seasons
8.) Grizzly LEH boundary changes

Local opinions and input was nearly the only input rec'd under the old system where they would just have regulations meetings in Cranbrook and Nelson to gather input.

The ministry people didn't differentiate between locals when the told us the results, they just said so many for and so many against. In some cases they didn't even report the numbers, They just said it was supported on the web site. I would judge that the KWHAC committee had a significant input thought. Interestingly the regional wildlife association members voted approximately the same as the web site and their reps had to support their members positions.

All the proposals were supported by the web input and the KWHAC committee as well, except 2 and 3.

The KWHAC consists of:
Resident hunters: Archers Associations, EK Wildlife Assn, WK Oudoorsmen.
Commercial: Guide Outfitters Assn, and BC Trappers Assn.

TOR are much the same as other regional advisory committees that exist in other regions.

[J_T]

Fischer,

While there was much discussion on the number of topics and there was some very positive proposals for change, the final report by the MOE was expected out before Christmas.

As a member of that panel, I can't tell you what will move forward, because I and the other members on that committee are but one component of the decision making process.


.) 1) Turkey any weapon
2.) WK GOS 6 point
3.) EK 3 point
4.) Creston antlerless elk
5.) Spike/fork moose GOS
6.) WK LEH bull moose
7.) Synchronization of Koot moose LEH seasons
8.) Grizzly LEH boundary changes

1) Changes to the Turkey Season where widely supported.
2) There will be changes to the WK 6 pt, but the BCWF (local groups) is waffling on what that should look like. Seems they have the biggest input.
3) I don't rule out an enhanced elk season in the EK, unless 6616 has information I don't. Part of the problem is the linkage of the EK 3 pt is contingent on initiatives in the West (dispersing hunters), so without significant changes in the WK, there are concerns for the EK.
4) I think you will see change in the Creston Antlerless (there is no reason why it shouldn't move forward)
5) Biggest issue here is First Nations. They aren't supportive of it. But I'm an optimist.
6 - 8) These are coordination issues mostly.

As I said, initiatives in the EK, are impacted by initiatives or a lack of initiatives in the WK, also Gov must look at big ticket items (Cariboo) and determine impacts.

We were supposed to have received copy of the proposals that would move forward, by now, but that hasn't occured.

JT

[Fisher-Dude]

Thanks 6616 and JT for the update. I'm really hoping that these elk proposals aren't dead in the water.

As for the spike/fork moose, I've seen 3 or 4 of them in nearly 30 years of hunting in the EK, so if anyone is concerned about "slaughter", I don't think they need to worry. Just talk to anyone in 3 or 8 that tries to find one of those ghosts!

I'm always suspicious of what the Ministry deems "First Nations' opposition". That was one excuse used by the region 8 bio for his waffling on a wolf season, yet when I spoke with the enviro coordinator of the Indian band, he felt region 8 wolves should be hunted and controlled so that ungulate populations weren't hammered by increasing wolf populations. Go figure. My advice to the advisory panel is to check with FN folks yourselves to get their side of it, first hand. ;)

[model88]

To whom it may concern.....PLEASE keep the elk season just the way it is!

[hunter1947]

To whom it may concern.....PLEASE keep the elk season just the way it is!
I have to agree with you on your statement mod88 ,look at how many elk are in the EK right now ,them managing the regs for elk has to be working for the increase of them over the last 10 years ,they must be doing something right.

[Fisher-Dude]

To whom it may concern.....PLEASE keep the elk season just the way it is!

Is that because you like to see the population managed for trophy animals for the non-resident clients that you guide? Or is it because you don't care that this restrictive season is killing off hunter numbers which will lead to the end of hunting in this province?

[model88]

Is that because you like to see the population managed for trophy animals for the non-resident clients that you guide? Or is it because you don't care that this restrictive season is killing off hunter numbers which will lead to the end of hunting in this province?

Well, well where to start. First of all Fisher-Dud, I like to hunt period! Open up a 3 point season and you might as well call it killing season.

Yeah I like trophy animals, but I am also a meat hunter. As for my choice of being an assistant guide, I do this more like a hobby. I have a full time job, I take holidays to guide. I tip my hat too those who make a living as a guide. Guiding would be easy if they changed the season, for the first couple of years anyhow.

Now as far as hunter numbers, I think you have your head up your ass so far that you can't see anymore. I have never seen as many hunters as I have in the last 4-5 years. I don't have any official number, but without a doubt there are more hunters than before.

So before you start pissing people off because they have an opinion, scratch your ass, it might help you think!

[Gateholio]

Now as far as hunter numbers, I think you have your head up your ass so far that you can't see anymore. I have never seen as many hunters as I have in the last 4-5 years. I don't have any official number, but without a doubt there are more hunters than before.

So before you start pissing people off because they have an opinion, scratch your ass, it might help you think!

Please refrain from using language such as this.

If you want an official number of hunters through the years, you can find it. You don't need to rely on your "hunches"

[GoatGuy]

Well, well where to start. First of all Fisher-Dud, I like to hunt period! Open up a 3 point season and you might as well call it killing season.

Yeah I like trophy animals, but I am also a meat hunter. As for my choice of being an assistant guide, I do this more like a hobby. I have a full time job, I take holidays to guide. I tip my hat too those who make a living as a guide. Guiding would be easy if they changed the season, for the first couple of years anyhow.

Now as far as hunter numbers, I think you have your head up your ass so far that you can't see anymore. I have never seen as many hunters as I have in the last 4-5 years. I don't have any official number, but without a doubt there are more hunters than before.

So before you start pissing people off because they have an opinion, scratch your ass, it might help you think!

Elk hunters and year from 1983-2005

1983 10422
1984 11479
1985 11984
1986 11586
1987 11169
1988 12015
1989 12071
1990 10823
1991 11314
1992 8899
1993 9816
1994 8061
1995 7559
1996 5603
1997 5755
1998 3467
1999 3882
2000 4369
2001 4596
2002 4876
2003 4609
2004 3382
2005 6026

[GoatGuy]

White-tailed deer hunters

1987 9723
1988 11265
1989 11171
1990 11503
1991 11994
1992 12229
1993 13929
1994 12794
1995 12085
1996 9827
1997 8986
1998 6886
1999 7085
2000 7552
2001 7622
2002 7256
2003 7105
2004 4904
2005 7988

oh year, it also used to be 2 bucks

[GoatGuy]

Days per kill from 1987 - 2005 wt deer

1987 31
1988 25
1989 31
1990 25
1991 25
1992 19
1993 23
1994 17
1995 21
1996 21
1997 42
1998 35
1999 27
2000 25
2001 23
2002 24
2003 18
2004 18
2005 15

[model88]

Well now that Fisher-dud has me all worked up I might as well keep going.

Now I have nothing against people traveling to hunt different areas, but if you all think we have a lack of whitetails and you don't like our elk season here in region 4, well the solution is simple....find somewhere else where the regulations and popultations make you happy. We will miss visiting with you and sharing adventures, I am sure that Wayne will keep coming though;-)

As too my language, I sincerly apoilgize. I also apoligize for stooping to a level that I know is beneath me!

[GoatGuy]

Percent of the kill that is female wt's

1987 20
1988 25
1989 19
1990 17
1991 16
1992 16
1993 25
1994 26
1995 26
1996 32
1997 32
1998 1
1999 1
2000 2
2001 1
2002 1
2003 4
2004 9
2005 9

[Fisher-Dude]

Well, well where to start. First of all Fisher-Dud, I like to hunt period! Open up a 3 point season and you might as well call it killing season.

Yeah I like trophy animals, but I am also a meat hunter. As for my choice of being an assistant guide, I do this more like a hobby. I have a full time job, I take holidays to guide. I tip my hat too those who make a living as a guide. Guiding would be easy if they changed the season, for the first couple of years anyhow.

Now as far as hunter numbers, I think you have your head up your ass so far that you can't see anymore. I have never seen as many hunters as I have in the last 4-5 years. I don't have any official number, but without a doubt there are more hunters than before.

So before you start pissing people off because they have an opinion, scratch your ass, it might help you think!

You want official numbers? Mid-80s (with a 3 point season on elk) there were 175,000 hunters. Today (with a 6 point season), there are 86,000 hunters. So, the few trucks or quads or bush pounders you saw are a dying breed. Obviously, they are all hunting where you hunt.:roll: The average age of hunters has also increased greatly during this same decline period, and as we die off/become physically unable to hunt, the decline of hunter numbers is going to accelerate. Have you bothered to read the two studies that were referenced earlier in this thread before you came to the erroneous conclusion that they are way more hunters now?

I won't stoop to calling you names, but will ask you how we had a sustainable hunt with a 3 point season (ALL season) and twice the hunters in the 80s, versus the slaughter that you say will happen with half the numbers of hunters now and a 10 day or two week 3 point season?

If nothing else, take a look at the top of page 5 in the following document:
http://peachlandsportsmen.com/declininghunters.pdf

What I find sad is that too many of us are burying our heads in the sand, and not realizing what hunting is up against in BC. As Dana posted above, we need to look past our short term desires and work on ensuring that hunting is allowed in this province. Hunter numbers = votes, and when we fall below the numbers of anti-hunters, we will lose ALL hunting in BC.

[model88]

Thanks GoatGuy, now I assume that those are province wide correct? If so we have no way of knowing how many per region.

Guys I didn't want to start a p*&^ing contest, I just voiced a simple opinion to which someone blew it way out of proportion. Hunting and guiding is something I take very seriously, somebody else judging me by a simple statement really irritates me.

I am sorry if I offended anybody, from now on I will keep my opinions too myself.

[GoatGuy]

Number of bucks harvested per year

1987 2335
1988 2804
1989 2608
1990 3271
1991 3412
1992 4167
1993 3593
1994 4226
1995 3587
1996 2504
1997 1301
1998 1934
1999 2485
2000 2980
2001 3598
2002 2985
2003 3457
2004 2223
2005 4102

[GoatGuy]

Now let me see if I have this right - -

2005 was the year that had the fewest days per kill at 15 and the antlerless harvest was only 9% of the harvest a compared to upwards of 30% in 96/97. So it's taking you fewer days to harvest and you're shooting more bucks.

Seasons used to go into december back in the day and 2 buck seasons.

And you think you have a sperm problem???????????????

[GoatGuy]

Thanks GoatGuy, now I assume that those are province wide correct? If so we have no way of knowing how many per region.



THIS IS ALL REGION 4 DATA

[GoatGuy]

Resident Elk Harvest REGION 4

1983 3049
1984 3868
1985 2994
1986 2819
1987 2276
1988 3371
1989 2558
1990 2993
1991 2504
1992 1973
1993 1932
1994 1505
1995 1306
1996 954
1997 736
1998 448
1999 413
2000 614
2001 841
2002 766
2003 1200
2004 743
2005 1661

[GoatGuy]

Days per kill REGION 4 ELK

1983 34
1984 27
1985 37
1986 39
1987 50
1988 34
1989 49
1990 34
1991 42
1992 43
1993 47
1994 52
1995 57
1996 54
1997 80
1998 80
1999 102
2000 75
2001 65
2002 69
2003 37
2004 46
2005 35

[GoatGuy]

Everybody seems to think it's all about the 6 pt reg.


If you really want to know why elk have bounced back in region 4.

Here's the cow and calf harvest for REGION 4

1983 640 1006
1984 928 1547
1985 509 958
1986 282 1043
1987 182 774
1988 472 1450
1989 384 1023
1990 419 1137
1991 351 901
1992 178 335
1993 251 406
1994 346 75
1995 274 65
1996 210 48
1997 184 22
1998 0 0
1999 21 4
2000 86 25
2001 126 34
2002 107 38
2003 228 84
2004 104 30
2005 349 83

[GoatGuy]

Regardless of your hunting style or what you 'want' in your hunting experience I think we're all gonna be in for a hurtin' if we don't start putting more animals on the ground in many parts of the province where ag conflicts occur.

The ranching/farming community is gonna start making more and more noise if folks don't get things under control. You've got ag issues in the EK - the result is gonna be more and more cow/calf seasons to resolve it just like back in the day or you're gonna get more fences.

With fences everyone loses out - much of the trench is being developed and what remains in farmland is often winter range or borders on it. Fences are just as bad as having a house in those areas.


Should be trying to learn from history not repeating it.

[Onesock]

Bucks 1987-175,000 hunters-2335 bucks killed
2005-85,000 hunters-4102 bucks killed
Could the deer stand up to twice as many hunters today? Half the hunters twice as many bucks shot.
Elk 1987 -175,000 hunters-3049 Elk killed in 34 days
2005-85,000 hunters-1661 Elk killed in 35 days
Looks like the same number of days hunted per Elk from 1987 to 2005 and it is only 6 pts in 2005 not 3 or better.
Looks like the hunting is way better now than in 1987 or there were better hunters in 1987. The herds could not handle 175,000 hunters today without going to less tags or LEH's. If we had the number of hunters today that we did in 1987 we would have less animals, more LEH's and less interest in hunting. Gee, does this sound familiar?????
More hunters=less aniamals=less opportunity=less hunters. Want to start the circle all over again?

[GoatGuy]

Bucks 1987-175,000 hunters-2335 bucks killed
2005-85,000 hunters-4102 bucks killed
Could the deer stand up to twice as many hunters today? Half the hunters twice as many bucks shot.
Elk 1987 -175,000 hunters-3049 Elk killed in 34 days
2005-85,000 hunters-1661 Elk killed in 35 days
Looks like the same number of days hunted per Elk from 1987 to 2005 and it is only 6 pts in 2005 not 3 or better.
Looks like the hunting is way better now than in 1987 or there were better hunters in 1987. The herds could not handle 175,000 hunters today without going to less tags or LEH's. If we had the number of hunters today that we did in 1987 we would have less animals, more LEH's and less interest in hunting. Gee, does this sound familiar?????
More hunters=less aniamals=less opportunity=less hunters. Want to start the circle all over again?

This is too funny.

I was trying to point out that there are likely more animals in some parts today than there were back then. That's kinda what I was trying to demonstrate ;-).

If you're up on what happened in the kootenays in the past it ain't a whole lot different than what's happening right now. Major landowner complaints due to depredation = major leh opportunities for female harvest = major decline in critters. Female harvest is what kills populations off. Skewed sex ratios do have an effect but it takes a long time to see the effects. That's why we have buck/bull only seasons and not an any animal with two ears season!!!:eek:

Wt's are generally only limited by habitat, not hunting. Most other jurisdictions have a white-tailed deer season (either sex) and often offer supp or extra tags for does. Elk in other jurisdictions are most often managed under 3 pt regs or sometimes any bull GOS very successfully, same as it used to be in BC.

If we don't start putting critters on the ground we'll either loose them due to landowner complaints or a bad winter. The folks up in 7B learned that the hard way. You have no idea how close landowners have come to having their own tags in BC.

Gotta think big picture here, not just what you want. The exclusionist attitude really needs to stop.

[hunter1947]

There is so much criticizing of area regions. Model88 has a point there if you don't like an area you are hunting for whatever reason it be ,then find a new area ,i have seen elk go to rock bottom in the EK ,and now they are coming back Strong ,I see the bull to cow count as being good for what i seen in there this year ,i counted 25 bulls to 125 cows and calf's ,to me that is almost spot on in the area hunted. The cow to bull numbers will change from one region to another ,i haven't been in all EK regions to say .http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/images/icons/icon12.gif

[Onesock]

You are right GG it is funny. Lets look to the past for solutions to the future, which didn't work in the past.
More hunters=less animals=less opportunity=less hunters!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[eastkoot]

Mr. Demarchi had some great stats that went for a shit.. And I bet he read lots too!! Read all you want but please don't exclude the opinions of those of us who see and watch these critters and the number of hunters in the region all year round from our back yards..

Brother J. - you are eating a mule deer and a whitey and could be eating an elk if it had't gone rotten before you found it so stop whining. Geeze, I didn't get an elk, I didn't get an elk !! That's just getting stale..

I don't think you manage a herd for the benefit of increasing "hunter numbers" or because we can't fill the freezer every year. You manage it for the aminals well being and I don't see hunter numbers as one of those benefits...A few on this thread are caving to the ranchers/farmers lobbying. Try getting permission to enter some of their property to hunt!!! This is the valley and if you are not a "Valley Person", related to the few old time property owns, good luck. They are compensated for loss by the Government anyway..
Sorry, perhaps I'm a region 4 resident that just enjoys going out, but this thread is p*****g me off. I know some on this thread are in the management business and the rest of you can read and think you can interpret the stats but others have a say, respect it or you have a chance of alienating a portion of hunters, and according to some, we can't afford that.. Quoting studies and numbers will not change my opinion. I have done government studies and know that they are at best, marginal in their accuracy and the care taken in any study is directly related to the money allotted and the marginal time spent on them. EG: No helicopter time/money lets just gestimate !! Sometimes, those who record this information cannot add up 5 rows of stats and get the right totals !!
I am still of the opinion that elk hunting and elk numbers in region 4 are the best they have been in 40 years.
Maybe a lobby to transplant or relocate more elk to the interior would be beneficial to hunter numbers and elk populations in the Province ?? Who here doesn't think the Okanagan/Cariboo couldn't hold more elk with little threat of a winter die off.
Because I and M88 live here, we must be wrong, because we didn't go on a web site and quote the data ??? Give us some credibility for what we obvously care about and have the priveledge to observe every day in the area surrounding our communities..

[bayou]

eastkoot and model 88 you are not alone on your views on the kootenay elk issues, and thank you for someone telling brother J to quit his whinnig.

[bad arrow]

I'm curious as to how anyone knows how many wt are harvested anywhere. I have not received a questionaire for wt for several years. seems pretty random.

[GoatGuy]

You are right GG it is funny. Lets look to the past for solutions to the future, which didn't work in the past.
More hunters=less animals=less opportunity=less hunters!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It comes across as "less hunters = more hunting for me" and that's pretty much the way it is.

You've been famous for excluding every/anybody that doesn't represent what you think, the way you think they should be hunting with or how they hunt. Rifle hunters, x bow hunters, what have you.

The greed is a lot of what has got us to where we are today and continues to consume hunters.


If things don't change in the EK you folks will see your elk being shot off by ranchers, through cow/calf LEHs or being turned into wolf/coyote scat.

You're bound to learn or more likely experience that the hard way.

The scavengers will thank you!


Happy hunting!

[GoatGuy]

I am still of the opinion that elk hunting and elk numbers in region 4 are the best they have been in 40 years.


Sounds about right.;-)

[model88]

Thanks for the support eastkoot, after an afternoon of icefishing, I think I have calmed down.....but wait we never even had a bite......HOLY CRAP maybe we need too change the fishing regs too!!!!!!!!!!!

OK I feel better now. But guys really, if ya don't like what you see here in the EK, find somewhere else to go. We are pretty darn happy with the hunting opportunities that exist here in the EK, you don't see many EK residents heading for the coast to hunt blacktails now do ya?

[Fisher-Dude]

Bucks 1987-175,000 hunters-2335 bucks killed
2005-85,000 hunters-4102 bucks killed
Could the deer stand up to twice as many hunters today? Half the hunters twice as many bucks shot.


In the 80s when I could hunt the EK and put an elk or a moose in the freezer, I didn't really want to dump a stinky little WT. I ate WT tag soup as an appetizer for my elk steak, as I didn't feel the need to kill a deer. That's likely the scenario that has brought about an increase in the harvest of WT bucks - hunters have a crappy chance at shooting an elk, moose is on once-in-a-lifetime (if yer lucky) LEH, so instead they kill a sausage buck. Also, from my observations, there are more WT in the EK now than there were 20 years ago due to milder winters and more browse from pine beetle harvesting and wildfires.


I'm curious as to how anyone knows how many wt are harvested anywhere. I have not received a questionaire for wt for several years. seems pretty random.

It's called random sampling. They sample enough hunters to be within 3% of actual with 95% confidence. If they sampled everyone at a much higher cost (money that would be diverted from on the ground wildlife projects into data entry clerks), they would come up with the same stats.

[Fisher-Dude]

We are pretty darn happy with the hunting opportunities that exist here in the EK, you don't see many EK residents heading for the coast to hunt blacktails now do ya?

When you have every day of the season to kill an elk in your back yard, why would you go to the coast? Just don't forget that the guy from the coast who comes to the EK to kill an elk on his week of holidays OWNS those elk just as much as "Valley People". The EK elk are to be managed for all BC residents, not just we Valley People. When I run into coastal hunters here in region 8, I greet them, BS with them, and will tell them the lay of the land and where they might find a deer. They won't be shooting "my deer", they will be shooting "their deer". I can always find "my deer".

And Model88, for your info, when I hunt the EK, I stay at eastkoot's house. We just have different views on what the seasons should be. :wink:

[Onesock]

You are right GG I don't agree with your conclusion from reading all the numbers. We as hunters have to think out of the box if hunting is to get up and out of the dirt. Game management is about animals and not managing humans, which is what you would have the stats do. Think about different seasons, different weapons etc. Quit thinking with the old school and try some new things. If it doesn't work out, well you tried. If the animal harvest is increased, hunters will increase for a few years then we will be right back to no critters, limited seasons with more point restrictions, and the loss of hunters. Something has to be done to retain the herds as they are now and still peak the hunters interest. But, you don't have stats for that, do you.

[Onesock]

Oh yes, about greed . I hunt with a bow for about 2/3 weeks a year. I am greedy. You will have to try again.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

One thing to think about is that game numbers can come back a lot faster than hunter numbers. Mother Nature has a little more experience than our government:roll:.

SSS

[GoatGuy]

One thing to think about is that game numbers can come back a lot faster than hunter numbers. Mother Nature has a little more experience than our government:roll:.

SSS

That's about it - if you get a good crop of grapes you pick 'em; you don't wait for them to fall to the ground and rot.

[GoatGuy]

You are right GG I don't agree with your conclusion from reading all the numbers. We as hunters have to think out of the box if hunting is to get up and out of the dirt. Game management is about animals and not managing humans, which is what you would have the stats do. Think about different seasons, different weapons etc. Quit thinking with the old school and try some new things. If it doesn't work out, well you tried. If the animal harvest is increased, hunters will increase for a few years then we will be right back to no critters, limited seasons with more point restrictions, and the loss of hunters. Something has to be done to retain the herds as they are now and still peak the hunters interest. But, you don't have stats for that, do you.

What would you recommend?

[model88]

GG, nowwhere did I refer to them as OUR animals or myself as a Valley Person as you put it. I enjoy meeting and BSing with out of area hunters. Two older distinguished gentlemen I met this year would probably still be driving had I not set them in the right direction.

[Fisher-Dude]

But guys really, if ya don't like what you see here in the EK, find somewhere else to go. We are pretty darn happy with the hunting opportunities that exist here in the EK, you don't see many EK residents heading for the coast to hunt blacktails now do ya?

GG didn't talk about Valley People, I did. Am I reading the "find somewhere else to go" and the "we" part in the above quote wrong? 8-)

[bayou]

Im not sure how long this depate has been going on but I know it was around in the spring since then to me goatguy and fisherdude have contradicted them selves quite abit. I am kinda grouping all the topics together since this one went from whitys to elk to hunter recrutment etc.

[GoatGuy]

Im not sure how long this depate has been going on but I know it was around in the spring since then to me goatguy and fisherdude have contradicted them selves quite abit. I am kinda grouping all the topics together since this one went from whitys to elk to hunter recrutment etc.

Contradicted? Really? Where?

[BCrams]

It is very clear, with the decline of hunters and the goal to increase hunter involvement, we need to implement changes to current regulations and some LEH hunts. This means putting your own thoughts and opinions aside and listen to the facts presented. Its not an easy thing to do, accepting change(s) for the future of hunting.

The problem these days are folks who stand in the way of allowing these changes to be made (i.e., protective locals). Plain as you can see the difference between black and white - people with this attitude are going to kill hunting. This does not mean I lay fault directly at local hunters and hunting groups. Some ministry bio's also need to examine their own policies and look at ways to remove restrictions. They need to be open to change as well. Some have become very comfortable with maintaining current regulations. In some cases, have created regulations benefiting guide outfitters and locals only. It is understandable, resources and money is tight - but there are always ways to make changes.

I am beginning to believe, in order to achieve goals of retaining hunters and recruiting hunters, we need to have the right individuals in place who will put the changes required through. It has been bluntly clear, excellent proposed changes have been shot down by a very few select and selfish hunters who think they know what they're doing or rather - just want to protect their current hunting opportunities at the cost of future hunters for tomorrow.

[hunter1947]

I myself don't think it is a lack of game animals out there for the reason of lack of new hunters ,what i see out there is enough game animals to go around. Why the numbers of new hunters are down is because of the kids parent ,there not getting them interested into hunting. The only way we as hunters can try and change this is to have free programing on hunting. This would be all free volunteer work at your home or somewhere else. You have a person that is qualified to teach the core course ,this would help the families that are on a tight budget. Then you would have to have hunters that would give there time free into the hunting field. I have tried myself over the last 12 or so years to get young ones into hunting and have failed. http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/images/icons/icon9.gif What i see in kids is they have already had there ways set at the age of 10 and older. They have been introduced to other things then hunting. I think that the young ones should be on outings with the parents to do with hunting at the ages of 6 years and up. Do you think this is going to happen ,no. Most of the parents that are in this middle generation have never been introduced to hunting ,so that gives the kids little chance of getting into hunting themselves. The bottom line hear is it's not the lack of game out there ,it is something else ,i think it is the past two generations that has the effect up to today. http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Islandeer]

While we are on the NIMBY subject, chew on this while you EK guys are chewing on your tough old 6 spike. My favourite chinook fishing spot is being over run with EK fisherman. They show up and catch and kill everything! There is nothing for us local guys to catch. We need to implement a new 40 lb season... that way their will be more fish... at least for us.

Now back to my EK whitetail sausage.... :tongue:

[model88]

While we are on the NIMBY subject, chew on this while you EK guys are chewing on your tough old 6 spike. My favourite chinook fishing spot is being over run with EK fisherman. They show up and catch and kill everything! There is nothing for us local guys to catch. We need to implement a new 40 lb season... that way their will be more fish... at least for us.

Now back to my EK whitetail sausage.... :tongue:

Looks like I need to go on a road trip

[Seeadler]

I think there are far bigger reasons for declining hunter numbers than a 3pt vs 6pt elk season;

Changing demographics, federal gun regulations (this one is huge IMO), fuel prices, maybe even the booming economy - people are too busy working to hunt.

I am not opposed to a 3pt elk season, but I question whether it will change anything in the long term or if in 2 or 3 years people will be whining how hard it is to find a 3pt.

My impression of hunting in the EK, there are more elk than I have ever seen, more whitetails, and far fewer mule deer than 20 years ago. I think the elk can stand increased harvest across all classes as can the whitetails. I doubt the Youth/Senior and LEH antlerless elk season even took care of the natural increase, the population of elk will be up next year as well, baring a hard winter of course.

I can see no use for further restrictions on whitetails.

[6616]

Really good post BCrams, I agree wholeheartedly, you win the reward for the best post in this thread IMO...!

I also agree with hunter1947, a mentoring program would be a huge asset and clubs and concerned individuals should start considering doing this.

I also agree with Seeadler that there are many reasons for the decline in hunting, Bill C-68 could be the biggest reason, but the if we hope to reverse the trend we need to work on the items that are within our control. We cannot change demographics but we can change hunting regulations where and if sustainable.

Did you note on Goatguys statistcis the dramatic decline in elk hunting participation in 1998 in the EK, the year the 6pt reg was introduced, this should indicate an area where we can have a positive impact considering todays healthy and still expanding EK elk population.

[Islandeer]

Looks like I need to go on a road trip

Blacktails are closed, but the fishing is picking up! I thought you EK fellas laughed now and then....

[model88]

Blacktails are closed, but the fishing is picking up! I thought you EK fellas laughed now and then....

Thats good, cause our fishin is slowing down:mrgreen::mrgreen:

[trapperdan2061]

Deerest Byod 050 , let me say something first off = the reason you see so many does is probally because your " one of those guys " you know those guy's who gave up road hunting with the truck and bought your self a quad and just drives around near the main logging roads and off spurs where the cat hunters have trained the predators to stay away and the roads are just over run with whitey does -if you need help to find some mature bucks you should probally track down this master hunter guy who is a world renound guide - who lives out in the kootenay's -also known as the whitetailanator he goes by the name of GRIZZLY DUECK and he does have a soft spot for rookie hunters and I hear he takes people out and shows them the ropes !

[GoatGuy]

Deerest Byod 050 , let me say something first off = the reason you see so many does is probally because your " one of those guys " you know those guy's who gave up road hunting with the truck and bought your self a quad and just drives around near the main logging roads and off spurs where the cat hunters have trained the predators to stay away and the roads are just over run with whitey does -if you need help to find some mature bucks you should probally track down this master hunter guy who is a world renound guide - who lives out in the kootenay's -also known as the whitetailanator he goes by the name of GRIZZLY DUECK and he does have a soft spot for rookie hunters and I hear he takes people out and shows them the ropes !

So you're the uncle - we've heard about you! :wink:

[boyd050]

Deerest Byod 050 , let me say something first off = the reason you see so many does is probally because your " one of those guys " you know those guy's who gave up road hunting with the truck and bought your self a quad and just drives around near the main logging roads and off spurs where the cat hunters have trained the predators to stay away and the roads are just over run with whitey does -if you need help to find some mature bucks you should probally track down this master hunter guy who is a world renound guide - who lives out in the kootenay's -also known as the whitetailanator he goes by the name of GRIZZLY DUECK and he does have a soft spot for rookie hunters and I hear he takes people out and shows them the ropes !
hmmm ok you've obviously been talking to that great wonderful hunter dude Grizzly Duek, who I might add FINALLY beat my whitey buck, after years of frustration and angst, knowing I had a bigger buck than his.. this year he finally came into the big boy league and got a pretty good buck ! but..... he's had many a day ... years.. of trying to feel like one of the guys... we sorta let him chum around with us from time to time....and it's paying off for him... not so much for us... bottom line can't deny he trys and this year he's done well, us ROOKIES have had to keep the young fella informed as to how we're doing so he still has a goal.... but he really lives on tag soup and hunting videos for the most part. you know all show...got the toys, but no time to get out like the rest of us, so occasionally the Gods look on him with pity and this year they did and he got a buck.... we're happy for him....as for being a guide.... well that came after graduating brownies!!!!:mrgreen:

[hunter1947]

Regarding elk. I can see that in a few years that when the elk numbers are stable that you will see a 3 point season come back for elk. It might only be a 5 day opening ,but i see it changing if the numbers continue to increase.:roll:. As for whitetail deer ,i have never seen so many of them in years in the area i hunted in the EK ,in our party wee took 4 bucks all over 4 points. As for mule deer ,i have seen less numbers in the past 3 years ,i think it is because of the doe to buck numbers. I have seen lots of mule doe and no big mossy bucks ,i know that the big guys hang out in remote areas till it is rutting time ,but why didn't i see any when i pounded hard back in the hills for days on end. You would think i would of got at least a clinch of one after being in there for 5 weeks ????

[GoatGuy]

Regarding elk. I can see that in a few years that when the elk numbers are stable that you will see a 3 point season come back for elk. It might only be a 5 day opening ,but i see it changing if the numbers continue to increase.

I think after the count this year you'll see things moving towards more liberal season.

Usually don't hunt elk in the EK but there's definitely a lot of elk. Two years ago saw a pile of bulls and cows (weren't hunting them).

Buddies saw a couple 6pt+ and plenty of other elk in Sept.

Other buddy went out one day called one in and shot one with his kid.

Nother buddy who's been there for 30 yrs usually takes his kid out towards the end of the season in Oct and call's one in for his kid to shoot - retired outfitter, said the elk hunting has never been that good in the EK and there have never been that many big bulls being shot. I know of a couple 340+ bulls shot by outiftters this year in areas where they weren't shooting anything better than 320 in the past.


I have seen lots of mule doe and no big mossy bucks ,i know that the big guys hang out in remote areas till it is rutting time ,but why didn't i see any when i pounded hard back in the hills for days on end. You would think i would of got at least a clinch of one after being in there for 5 weeks ????

Head there in late Oct or early November before the season closes or hit the high country early season - they're practically behind every bush. hehe The elk country you're hunting probably ain't too far from the mountains. Lots of country up the Bull, Flathead, St.Marys, Findlay, Elk and on and on and on. I know packhorse creek has been taking some big muleys in the last couple years. Find high country, find big muleys.

Had 1 1/2 days hunt so we didn't get any whoppers this year. Saw plenty of bucks and passed on a couple bigger the first day. Even managed to find a couple of them branch antlered wt's! Here's a couple pics - sorry about the bloodshot on the one pic, think he was using nosler partitions. Think 6 deer in 1 1/2 days? Should have been more but wt bucks don't stand around long and we have a couple newbies with us.

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/thumbs/hbc5.JPG
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/thumbs/crop4.jpg
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/thumbs/crop11.jpg
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/thumbs/crop2.JPG

[hunter1947]

I think after the count this year you'll see things moving towards more liberal season.

Usually don't hunt elk in the EK but there's definitely a lot of elk. Two years ago saw a pile of bulls and cows (weren't hunting them).

Buddies saw a couple 6pt+ and plenty of other elk in Sept.

Other buddy went out one day called one in and shot one with his kid.

Nother buddy who's been there for 30 yrs usually takes his kid out towards the end of the season in Oct and call's one in for his kid to shoot - retired outfitter, said the elk hunting has never been that good in the EK and there have never been that many big bulls being shot. I know of a couple 340+ bulls shot by outiftters this year in areas where they weren't shooting anything better than 320 in the past.



Head there in late Oct or early November before the season closes or hit the high country early season - they're practically behind every bush. hehe The elk country you're hunting probably ain't too far from the mountains. Lots of country up the Bull, Flathead, St.Marys, Findlay, Elk and on and on and on. I know packhorse creek has been taking some big muleys in the last couple years. Find high country, find big muleys.

Had 1 1/2 days hunt so we didn't get any whoppers this year. Saw plenty of bucks and passed on a couple bigger the first day. Even managed to find a couple of them branch antlered wt's! Here's a couple pics - sorry about the bloodshot on the one pic, think he was using nosler partitions. Think 6 deer in 1 1/2 days? Should have been more but wt bucks don't stand around long and we have a couple newbies with us.

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/thumbs/hbc5.JPG
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/thumbs/crop4.jpg
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/thumbs/crop11.jpg
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/thumbs/crop2.JPG
Different regions produce different numbers of mu-lies etc ,the bull river area i have not hunted it many times just two times once being this year. The area that i have hunted for 38 years ,it show-es very few big bucks. When hunting in my spot i was up on top of the mountains ,i couldn't go any higher ,still did not see any mossy bucks. I was after elk so it really didn't matter to me anyways ,just didn't see any when the time was put in for that long at them hi elevations ,i did see some real nice whitetail bucks at the hi elevations.

[bayou]

Well goat guy for one you want more hunters but say a hunters worst enemy is another hunter.
Get rid of LEH and restrictions so people dont have to travel now its so people can travel there and have a better chance since they only get one week.
I always find it weird how people from outsde an area want somewhere else changed to benefit them and if a local makes a comment he is called a (me) person so I guess that would make you a (you) person you want it your way and when it becomes that you will you not become a me person.
I guess from all your stats I am a minority and your a majority and the majority will always win even if in the long run it may be killing it self.
When it was back just 3 point or better there was lots of people that could never get an elk after the switch these people consitently harvest them now.
Since the spring I have been doing alot of asking and as of yet have found no one that I felt was a hunter that has or did quit hunting because of LEH or point restrictions. The main point that kept coming up why people were lossing interest was to many people with no respect, ethics etc.
So I agree with you on one thing I guess, hunter numbers are down but theres plenty out there with licences and tags and this is what you want your trying to do any thing to get your numbers up in my opinion your belittling the sport by saying it costs to much lower the tag costs lower the core costs make it easier etc. I would rather have people hunt because they want to not try to buy there way in.
Your also against LEH but still apply which is contradicting, and were excited that your buddys girlfriend got a WK tag still waiting to see the pictures and story on that I hope she had a good experience on her hunt.

[GoatGuy]

Well goat guy for one you want more hunters but say a hunters worst enemy is another hunter.
Get rid of LEH and restrictions so people dont have to travel now its so people can travel there and have a better chance since they only get one week.
I always find it weird how people from outsde an area want somewhere else changed to benefit them and if a local makes a comment he is called a (me) person so I guess that would make you a (you) person you want it your way and when it becomes that you will you not become a me person.
I guess from all your stats I am a minority and your a majority and the majority will always win even if in the long run it may be killing it self.
When it was back just 3 point or better there was lots of people that could never get an elk after the switch these people consitently harvest them now.
Since the spring I have been doing alot of asking and as of yet have found no one that I felt was a hunter that has or did quit hunting because of LEH or point restrictions. The main point that kept coming up why people were lossing interest was to many people with no respect, ethics etc.
So I agree with you on one thing I guess, hunter numbers are down but theres plenty out there with licences and tags and this is what you want your trying to do any thing to get your numbers up in my opinion your belittling the sport by saying it costs to much lower the tag costs lower the core costs make it easier etc. I would rather have people hunt because they want to not try to buy there way in.
Your also against LEH but still apply which is contradicting, and were excited that your buddys girlfriend got a WK tag still waiting to see the pictures and story on that I hope she had a good experience on her hunt.

You've got a lot more reading to do than fishing through posts. It isn't about me, I don't make up the majority of hunters, don't fit into the group that's dropped out of hunting but I'd like to see hunting continue. I don't look for seasons that cater to 'me', don't think about what will regulations do to 'my' hunting trips or how they will affect 'my' animals. I look at what animal numbers are like, were like and look at harvest and effort stats and compare them to what hunters perceive as opportunity and potential for success.

Everyone's entitled to an opinion - talking to a handful of hunters is just that, an opinion. Kinda like wandering around in the bush for an hour not seeing any game and deciding there was a major winter kill.

I also believe hunters think that if antler restrictions are in place they will be able to harvest a 'trophy' animal. Some hunters don't realize that antler restrictions are put in place to control harvest to maintain sex ratios or to bring animal numbers back up - they aren't so hunters can go out and shoot a book animal every year. People don't think back before that 'bad winter' that the hunting was fine with more hunters and longer seasons. When the populations come back up all of the sudden the hunters don't want to go back to the regulations from before because somehow they think the regulations were what killed the animals off.

As I've mentioned hunters are often their own worst enemies - hunters from the interior often think 'keep all the hunters from the coast from shooting our animals' or think that because another hunter road hunts, hunts on a quad, on a bike, on a horse, with a rifle, muzzleloader, xbow that the way the individual hunts is wrong and get proceed to chastise them for it. I don't know why it is but that's the way some hunters are.

I'm generally not much of a picture poster or a story teller. I save that stuff for everybody else - just post sometimes when I hear things like there's no big bucks, bulls, winter kill and on and on and on.

I apply to LEH cause I like to hunt - not much else for options.

There's much more learning to do on hunting recruitment and retention; if you feel like reading it I think you'd change your mind.

[freeman6]

Back to the white tail numbers. You keep talking about not seeing big bucks or having a great season. Just depends on where you were hunting and your luck for that.

In the summer, before the season opens, where there more or less big bucks in the spots that you would normally find them at that time of year? If there are fewer, overall numbers may be down due to winter survival rates and winter stress. If the numbers are the same or higher, you just ain't doin' it right this year.

You will find the animals where they can get the best deal for the least effort, and that will change over time due to a number of things like cover quality, hunting pressure, predators, even the strain of alfalfa in the farmer's field or its age has a bearing. Throw in the weather too. Is there a new cutblock nearby that messed up an access route to your favorite area? Is the browse starting to get too tall and old to be good feed? Did a local water source dry up, or was there so much water around that it wasn't necessary for the animals to congregate near it? How are your predator numbers and how effective are they in limiting the herd numbers?

I'm thinking that the age classes of the animals hasn't really changed that much, but something else made the animals change their patterns and if you stayed locked into what worked in past years, you might not have done as well this year. Work hard and keep an open mind, preseason scouting doesn't hurt either.

[Islandeer]

You nailed it.

[mark4]

I would have to agree that there seems to be less big bucks in this particular year. I have several very reliable treestands where I have consistently taken mature whitey bucks during the peak of the rut which seems to be around nov 5th to nov 25th in my own experiences. This year I saw many bucks but they were all dinks so I decided to let them get bigger before harvesting them( next year that is). I know that there are still a ton of big whitey's hiding out in the thick stuff that you can't penetrate without busting them, don't be fooled -they get out of there before you even know they were there- the huge rubs are still there every year right ?? I think the kootenay whitetail might be getting a little smarter these days- check those blowdowns that overlook riverbottoms and you will find big buck beds guaranteed.

[The Hermit]

Ahhhh... could it be that the boys have dropped their head gear?

[BCJunior]

Much like the princeton area alot of the young bucks are being harvested for youths and sausage. Kootneys right now like Mark said is post rut, alot harder to find them if you can even find them at all. When we went to the kootenays last year for four point only, the last day of the season our truck was the only truck that harvested two big monsters. These bucks were muleys though. Comming to my concern of whiteys aswell, we shot a spike and a nice 4 point not too big though. We never really saw any big boys though, so I am not too sure if it still applys. I guess it also helps to get in the right spot at the right time.