Super dark antlers

[JIL_24/7]

Just wondering if anyone else has gotten a buck in the last couple of years with super dark antlers? I was fortunate enough to shoot my first 4 point mulie recently and in addition to having a very non-typical rack he also has very dark black/brown antlers. My theory is that the charcoal from the burn a couple of years ago found its way into his rack from feeding in the burn. He was with three does feeding in burn from two years ago when I Browninged him.

[TheObserver]

From what I understand antler colour depends on what they are rubbing them on and the dirt and stuff they get them in in their day to day lives sleeping etc. When the velvet strips they are pretty pale albeit bloody

Like on the coast a lot of Blackies and Rosies have red antlers from the stuff they are rubbing on

So could rubbing on or brushing up on it frequently

[JIL_24/7]

Absolutely. Agreed that the rubbing has impact, and I've peeled the velvet off my son's last few youth hunt deer and have seen the pale colour. This appears different for some reason. Even the areas that appear to be lighter are grayish, and the areas that wouldn't be rubbed are darker. The dark areas can't be scrapped off either. Just very unique to me. Probably just what you say, but found it interesting

[oddsix]

Care to share pics of the buck? Perhaps a story? Congrats on a cool sounding buck.

[ElectricDyck]

My friend shot a nice 4x4 in a burn...antlers were pretty black..cool looking trophy.

[Husky7mm]

Care to share pics of the buck? Perhaps a story? Congrats on a cool sounding buck.


I second that. Sounds like a hell of a buck. I love dark antlers. I mostly see it on elk. Dark antlers with white tips, just love it. I believe it’s from rubbing fir trees and wallowing in mud. I don’t think mulies wallow but they may horn the earth a bit, who knows.

[Husky7mm]

My friend shot a nice 4x4 in a burn...antlers were pretty black..cool looking trophy.

Saw a picture years ago of a ram taken just outside the cool mine in elk ford. Black horns from rubbing ok the coal. Looked awesome. Huge ram, wish I had the picture. One of a kind trophy.

[Husky7mm]

https://i.postimg.cc/GTsHDhLC/56177444613-AAC06-CC0-3726-493-F-A2-BC-56-B92-EDC6-E5-F.jpg (https://postimg.cc/GTsHDhLC)

I browninged this fellow a few year back. He really made my season . Black horns with white tips. I made a euro and admire the horns quite regularly. Both my boys were with me and my hunting partner. Great day.

[Husky7mm]

This guy disappeared the year I found my elk honey hole. Taken by another hunter. 6x8 with black horns. Picture of a picture. Wish I had a better one. Beautiful bull.


https://i.postimg.cc/q79dxwR7/IMG-1177.jpg (https://postimg.cc/wtcP6hDK)

[RackStar]

I love those elk husky! Dang

[Husky7mm]

Even some of the younger bulls here have them dark antlers. Love it. We also have reddish ones from the alder rubbing bulls. Love this place.

[j270wsm]

Saw a picture years ago of a ram taken just outside the cool mine in elk ford. Black horns from rubbing ok the coal. Looked awesome. Huge ram, wish I had the picture. One of a kind trophy.

send me your email and I could send you some pics/videos of some mine rams from this yr

[Retiredguy]

The antler coloring is from the resin/sap that transfers to the antlers when they are rubbing. I could be wrong, but I think that when they are rubbing on small spruce trees, it produces the dark coloring. I killed a nice heavy 4 point mulie a couple years ago and his antlers are very dark. I also have a nice bull elk that is stained really dark with very white tips on the tines. I really think the dark staining looks excellent. Coincidentally, when I shot the bull elk he was busy scrubbing on a spruce tree.

[fishmyster]

I have heard the common belief of the antlers being coloured from the type of vegetation the are rubbing on. I’m skeptic of the theory an believe it is more to do with hereditary genes and or diet. My VI Rosie had very red antlers as do the deer in the same area. After examining the many animals I have harvested i have noticed the sap and resins from the recently rubbed trees still on the antlers and the fur on the top of their heads. It seems odd that the sap and resins could colour the antlers so distinctly but not the fur directly below the set. Other observations were some areas where deer had rubbed alders so much that the top of the skull was exposed but the antlers were pale. A couple days before I had harvested my VI elk some other hunters had also got one. When examining both it was easy to see my elk 6x7 was king of the heard had not done barely any rubbing had short ivory coloured wear at the tips of the antlers. The other hunters 5x5 subordinate elk had been rubbing lots with ivory wear 2/3 down the tines. Neither animals had red stains on their fur from the alder trees which they most commonly rub on in that area. Both elk had dark red antler bases.

[TheObserver]

I have heard the common belief of the antlers being coloured from the type of vegetation the are rubbing on. I’m skeptic of the theory an believe it is more to do with hereditary genes and or diet. My VI Rosie had very red antlers as do the deer in the same area. After examining the many animals I have harvested i have noticed the sap and resins from the recently rubbed trees still on the antlers and the fur on the top of their heads. It seems odd that the sap and resins could colour the antlers so distinctly but not the fur directly below the set. Other observations were some areas where deer had rubbed alders so much that the top of the skull was exposed but the antlers were pale. A couple days before I had harvested my VI elk some other hunters had also got one. When examining both it was easy to see my elk 6x7 was king of the heard had not done barely any rubbing had short ivory coloured wear at the tips of the antlers. The other hunters 5x5 subordinate elk had been rubbing lots with ivory wear 2/3 down the tines. Neither animals had red stains on their fur from the alder trees which they most commonly rub on in that area. Both elk had dark red antler bases.

Take a shed and go and rub it on young alders you'll be surprised at how quickly it stains it. Round here they do anyhow when I rub and grunt.

Also heard it ain't only what they been rubbin but the ground and shrubs and dirt they are sleeping on plays a part too, cumulative effects resulting in what colour their antlers take on

[fishmyster]

Take a shed and go and rub it on young alders you'll be surprised at how quickly it stains it. Round here they do anyhow when I rub and grunt.

Also heard it ain't only what they been rubbin but the ground and shrubs and dirt they are sleeping on plays a part too, cumulative effects resulting in what colour their antlers take on
If the antler colour is mostly effected by contamination from external mater and material wouldn’t the fur also be affected?

[fishmyster]

I also have rubbed antlers on shrubbery while hunting lots and didn’t come up with the same outcome you are mentioning

[TheObserver]

If the antler colour is mostly effected by contamination from external mater and material wouldn’t the fur also be affected?

Cervids do not have fur, they have hair. One material is hardened bone and the other is hair thats like comparing apples and oranges, the hair washes easily of stains and foreign material or else they would have permanent stains all over them.... their hair is hollow like a honeycomb which may have something to do with that as well.

If it was diet, why would they not be stained already after they shed their velvet and the dried blood washes away? They strip their velvet and their rack is so pale and white with no staining yet, then they live life, sleep, rub, eat, itch etc and they become stained as the days and weeks go on

[fishmyster]

Sorry if i don’t follow that narrative but I’m still not convinced based on my field observations.
By definition of habitat effect should the hoofs also be similar to the same colour as the anglers?

[fishmyster]

The antlers may be pail after shedding velvet but likely stain as the drying effects are drawing blood and plasma to the surface of the antlers. That would be my guess. Stained from the inside

[TheObserver]

Sorry if i don’t follow that narrative but I’m still not convinced based on my field observations.
By definition of habitat effect should the hoofs also be similar to the same colour as the anglers?

Lol narrative, I don't work for the news here. But yeah make up your own conclusion for sure. I don't see diet playing much of a role if any at all, only slightly, but rubbing and living I could see way more conclusion i've come too. Could be wrong haven't studied it myself.

Again apples and oranges, antlers are bone, hooves are keratin. They aren't even the same material, but it is funny how the hooves resemble dirt though.

[fishmyster]

Yes I will continue to think for myself. I’m thinking they are coloured from the inside via the capillary effect and genetics influenced also by diet and bleaching from sun exposure. Your and the most common belief is they are coloured from exterior staining based on habitat.
I’m still curious. You know of links to credible science on the topic?

[fishmyster]

When you mention hoofs resemblance to the colour of dirt. Interestingly all the deer I have harvested have come from a variety of territories. Some have lived on fields most of their life some have been in desert climates some have been from dark costal forest cover. All of them had very similar colour unlike the anglers. Food for though.

[wiggy]

gwigeland@hotmail.com
‘I’m so depressed it all went Leh
‘The holes I hiked into and saw rams every time are now 100/1
Could have harvested some nice rams over the years but not one of the big guys
so I never pulled the trigger
60 now
excruciating mental pain 😩

[wiggy]

send me your email and I could send you some pics/videos of some mine rams from this yr
gwigeland@hotmail.com
please and thank you

[Husky7mm]

My thoughts are it is almost exclusively what they are rubbing on. They are all white with a bit of blood staining when the velvet come off and then shortly after it’s rub fest. The conifers have sticky sap, and dirt and mud stick to it from the rut pits, wallows, piss beds, ect. Some dark bark from conifer contribute to the darkness, aspen and poplar for the brown, ( inner bark) and alder, and bog birch for the red, probably cedar too( not sure don’t have none here).


Anyone ever seen or shot a “black” antlered whitetail?

[RackStar]

Picked up an elk shed this spring and it was caked in tree resin / bark/ debris pretty cool.

[TheObserver]

Yes I will continue to think for myself. I’m thinking they are coloured from the inside via the capillary effect and genetics influenced also by diet and bleaching from sun exposure. Your and the most common belief is they are coloured from exterior staining based on habitat.
I’m still curious. You know of links to credible science on the topic?


When you mention hoofs resemblance to the colour of dirt. Interestingly all the deer I have harvested have come from a variety of territories. Some have lived on fields most of their life some have been in desert climates some have been from dark costal forest cover. All of them had very similar colour unlike the anglers. Food for though.

If, antlers, which are pure bone, are coloured to such a radical degree, then why is every single other bone in their bodies not coloured even a slight tinge from their diets? Can't say i'm much of a science guy, especially after the last few years lol. Field observations, as you would say and thinking for myself. Any sources for your thoery?

Again hooves are not bone, so why the comparison to them and antlers? All the places I hunt you dig a foot or a couple feet and the dirt is brown. The keratin hooves could be that colour right from birth idk i've never birthed a Deer or ran up to one as soon as its hit the ground

[wideopenthrottle]

i have seen mule deer that have been digging so much in sandy soil for farmed carrots that the black coating on the tips of front hooves was so worn that the tips of the hooves were clear coloured...of the 3 MD we got this year, the 2 from the farm fields had very bleached antlers (almost as white as a shed) but the 3rd one from 2km up the hill away from the farms in the trees was pretty dark

[Husky7mm]

The farmed elk that have nothing to rub on have very light coloured antlers.

[Hunter gatherer]

Yes I will continue to think for myself. I’m thinking they are coloured from the inside via the capillary effect and genetics influenced also by diet and bleaching from sun exposure. Your and the most common belief is they are coloured from exterior staining based on habitat.
I’m still curious. You know of links to credible science on the topic?
https://www.google.ca/url?q=https://www.masterofskulls.com/blogs/tips-tricks/deer-antler-color-coloring-deer-antlers&sa=U&ved=2ahUKEwiI-4fQrZ6DAxU9FjQIHavpCykQFnoECAkQAw&usg=AOvVaw3B5iFBZDFbN5PwsHSK76KH
here you go,coloured by rubbing on trees and such exterior staining

[fishmyster]

The farmed elk that have nothing to rub on have very light coloured antlers.
If they have nothing to rub on then how could they have any colour at all? Should they just be the colour of bone?
If antlers are coloured from rubbing then there would be a drastic darkening in colour starting late October. That’s not the case.
If colouring was mainly caused from dirt and tree resins then there would be more of a build up around the bases and not be such a consistent displacement of the colour.

[fishmyster]

have you found any science on the topic? Science usually has some sort of control group then compares and documents outcomes based on variety of inputs kind of thing. The link you provide doesn’t indicate very controlled study to conclude with the outcome it has.
I do believe the oxidation of left over blood part though.

https://www.google.ca/url?q=https://www.masterofskulls.com/blogs/tips-tricks/deer-antler-color-coloring-deer-antlers&sa=U&ved=2ahUKEwiI-4fQrZ6DAxU9FjQIHavpCykQFnoECAkQAw&usg=AOvVaw3B5iFBZDFbN5PwsHSK76KH
here you go,coloured by rubbing on trees and such exterior staining

[fishmyster]

http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/blob:http://www.huntingbc.ca/336de42f-befb-4d3c-b699-1184bc93e263Not from rubbing on shrubs

[fishmyster]

http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/blob:http://www.huntingbc.ca/336de42f-befb-4d3c-b699-1184bc93e263Not from rubbing on shrubs
Hmm. Picture of reindeer didn’t appear

[Wagonmaster]

I don't believe rubbing antlers on tree bark is a significant factor. When a set of antlers are dark, they are generally fairly uniform in darkness over the entire surface area. The shape of the antler simply does not allow all surfaces to make contact with a tree or branch and as a result, lighter areas would occur. I believe that age is the main factor influencing antler color...older bucks have darker antlers after the velvet is lost. Consider this statement from a commentary on the matter:

"Larger, thicker racks are covered with thicker matts of velvet. The dense and increased surface areas have more access to blood. When the velvet dies, it takes longer for the blood soaked velvet to fall off. This allows the blood to stain the antler for a longer time and leaves it darker. Deer that live in forested or more shaded areas also tend to avoid the sun. Older bucks are almost nocturnal, and avoid daytime movement. The sun does not get much opportunity to bleach their racks."

An old blacktail taken in the late 70's...he had a reasonably large body and I think the fact that it was only a three point was a regression due to its age. Decreased hormone production in old age will result in less stimulus for growth and ultimately smaller antler size. Notice the evenness of coloration. It doesn't
seem likely that the entire surface area 360 degrees around the tines, in the bifurcations and near the skull would make enough contact with branches to result in such an even color distribution.

http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/img20191115_13311412.png

[fishmyster]

^^^now that make a lot of sense to me

[Husky7mm]

If they have nothing to rub on then how could they have any colour at all? Should they just be the colour of bone?
If antlers are coloured from rubbing then there would be a drastic darkening in colour starting late October. That’s not the case.
If colouring was mainly caused from dirt and tree resins then there would be more of a build up around the bases and not be such a consistent displacement of the colour.

They still horn the ground. Lay down with their heads down. Other wise not much colour.

[Husky7mm]

Bull comes to wallow, seconds later horns go in, then whole body. He horns the wallow more, tosses mud all over horns some muddy logs up into the air and carries on his marry way, with black dirt on his horns. Some of it will reside.

I have lots of photos of this by unfortunately post image is having some issues.

[fishmyster]

Bull comes to wallow, seconds later horns go in, then whole body. He horns the wallow more, tosses mud all over horns some muddy logs up into the air and carries on his marry way, with black dirt on his horns. Some of it will reside.

I have lots of photos of this by unfortunately post image is having some issues.
we if that is what causes antler colour I would they wouldn’t be as attractive as they are and would just look really dirty resembling the front bumper of my quad. No?

[Husky7mm]

we if that is what causes antler colour I would they wouldn’t be as attractive as they are and would just look really dirty resembling the front bumper of my quad. No?
Because he polishes it in by rubbing on trees, over and over and over. It’s layered.

[fishmyster]

Because he polishes it in by rubbing on trees, over and over and over. It’s layered.
That would take them some serious talent and dedication to do the job with such consistent coverage. Sorry not buying it.

[Husky7mm]

That would take them some serious talent and dedication to do the job with such consistent coverage. Sorry not buying it.

I am responsible for what I say, not what you can understand.

[Husky7mm]

The bucks and bulls rub for likely hours a day during the pre-rut and rut. Thats why they get a big fat neck, because of the neck exercise. The most colour is around the base. Most of the bucks and bulls killed still have shavings and sap in the burrs.
I have killed a few velvet bucks and underneath the antlers are bone colour. Oxidized blood turns darker but I think that is only a small part. As the season rolls on the antlers get darker as more rubbing occurs. If you leave the antlers outside in the rain they will turn back to bone colour cause all the colouring for rubbing and scrapping washes off. The end!

[Husky7mm]

Elk for sure rub until there testosterone drops and their antlers fall off. ( mostly April)

I don’t know if deer do the same.

[fishmyster]

Elk for sure rub until there testosterone drops and their antlers fall off. ( mostly April)

I don’t know if deer do the same.
Do you really think elk rub till April?

[Arctic Lake]

That’s a great picture Wagonmaster ! I had to give my head a shake though I thought it was Burton Cummings !
Arctic Lake
I don't believe rubbing antlers on tree bark is a significant factor. When a set of antlers are dark, they are generally fairly uniform in darkness over the entire surface area. The shape of the antler simply does not allow all surfaces to make contact with a tree or branch and as a result, lighter areas would occur. I believe that age is the main factor influencing antler color...older bucks have darker antlers after the velvet is lost. Consider this statement from a commentary on the matter:

"Larger, thicker racks are covered with thicker matts of velvet. The dense and increased surface areas have more access to blood. When the velvet dies, it takes longer for the blood soaked velvet to fall off. This allows the blood to stain the antler for a longer time and leaves it darker. Deer that live in forested or more shaded areas also tend to avoid the sun. Older bucks are almost nocturnal, and avoid daytime movement. The sun does not get much opportunity to bleach their racks."

An old blacktail taken in the late 70's...he had a reasonably large body and I think the fact that it was only a three point was a regression due to its age. Decreased hormone production in old age will result in less stimulus for growth and ultimately smaller antler size. Notice the evenness of coloration. It doesn't
seem likely that the entire surface area 360 degrees around the tines, in the bifurcations and near the skull would make enough contact with branches to result in such an even color distribution.

http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/img20191115_13311412.png

[Husky7mm]

Elk rub until their horns fall off. Been hunting for 30 years, read hundreds of books, I scout year round, my cameras are out 365, hunt sheds, and I work in the bush as an environmental regulator. I put about 50ks of walking in the bush every week on average. I don’t think there are many that have more first hand observations than that.

[fishmyster]

Elk rub until their horns fall off. Been hunting for 30 years, read hundreds of books, I scout year round, my cameras are out 365, hunt sheds, and I work in the bush as an environmental regulator. I put about 50ks of walking in the bush every week on average. I don’t think there are many that has more first hand observations than that.
And that means you know everything? You must think I’m a newbie. Lol
Well you win for now. Merry Christmas!!

[Arctic Lake]

What does Dr. Valerius Giest have to say on this ?
Arctic Lake

[bwhnter]

https://www.elk101.com/2011/04/the-miracle-of-antler-growth/

[RackStar]

Do you really think elk rub till April?

Easily , I found a fresh elk shed early April next to a rub.

[fishmyster]

https://www.elk101.com/2011/04/the-miracle-of-antler-growth/
Excellent write up about antler growth but absolutely no element of scientific proof to the colouring aspect of the antlers.
I happen to live rural and have pet deer population living and bedding all over my yard. Antlers are well coloured by end of August long before the extensive rubbing starts mid October.

Again the popular believe of antler colour comes from rubbing doesn’t match my observations in the field or in my yard. There just doesn’t seem to be any science on the subject just very strong belief.

[fishmyster]

https://wildbuck.net/blog/why-do-some-bucks-have-dark-chocolate-brown-antlers/

[fishmyster]

https://www.lsonews.com/john-keith-56/
This article claims genetics plays a bigger role in darkening of antlers

[Husky7mm]

https://wildbuck.net/blog/why-do-some-bucks-have-dark-chocolate-brown-antlers/


You have a postulation that it’s genetics and age. I am sure that depending on how you search you can like anything on the internet that is debatable, back up your theory.

If you go back you will see that I said along the lines of “my thoughts are”, “ my opinion is” I can’t remember exactly the wording, but I did give you a long resume’ of why my observations are qualified. This is not for a one elk experience or seeing a few local deer in my yard. I have a job and lifestyle that puts me in the bush year round, Probably upwards of 300 days a year between hunting and work. I don’t need to google stuff regularly to get answers, I see it first hand.
The article you provided actually backs up the excessive rubbing observation, you just choose to ignore it. The bush bucks having usually the darkest antlers, and the open plains bucks having the lightest. Kind of like the farmed/penned elk observation I shared that you don’t seem to comprehend. Now I am not saying there is no truth to the blood on the horn oxidizing or reacting with something but the main driver is that he is rubbing on stuff all the time to make that happen.
These are not peoples feelings or hunches, they observed it. That is a record.

Your own observations of elk and deer in your area having the same coloured antlers is another example, they don’t specifically target the same nutrition, one is a browser and one is a grazer( the later is actually debatable, but that is what we are told)

Could it be, oh I give a wild guess here, that they are rubbing on the same shit ?

It seems you are very convicted to your postulation, and that’s fine too cause science is never really settled and science is subjective. That said, I am not inaccurate with what I shared.



Here is quote from one article, it has to be a typo, or it’s just false. The buck is in peak condition pre rut, not post, post he is run down, beat up and his fat is gone. I do not believe any minerals or nutrition go into the horns once they harden and the velvet is off. Also the antlers and body share nutrients throughout the growing season or there would not be enough time to grow a big rack after repairing the body back to to prime physical condition. A bad winter will impede the growth of the rack if the body is badly deteriorated, but a rack of some kind is going to grown regardless.


“ Once bucks reach peak body condition after the rut, all minerals and nutrition is absorbed by the developing antler.”

I will leave it at this, if you shoot a nice dark antlered buck or bull, don’t leave its rack out in the weather for too long or its “genetics” will wash off. Lol

[fishmyster]

You have a postulation that it’s genetics and age. I am sure that depending on how you search you can like anything on the internet that is debatable, back up your theory.

If you go back you will see that I said along the lines of “my thoughts are”, “ my opinion is” I can’t remember exactly the wording, but I did give you a long resume’ of why my observations are qualified. This is not for a one elk experience or seeing a few local deer in my yard. I have a job and lifestyle that puts me in the bush year round, Probably upwards of 300 days a year between hunting and work. I don’t need to google stuff regularly to get answers, I see it first hand.
The article you provided actually backs up the excessive rubbing observation, you just choose to ignore it. The bush bucks having usually the darkest antlers, and the open plains bucks having the lightest. Kind of like the farmed/penned elk observation I shared that you don’t seem to comprehend. Now I am not saying there is no truth to the blood on the horn oxidizing or reacting with something but the main driver is that he is rubbing on stuff all the time to make that happen.
These are not peoples feelings or hunches, they observed it. That is a record.

Your own observations of elk and deer in your area having the same coloured antlers is another example, they don’t specifically target the same nutrition, one is a browser and one is a grazer( the later is actually debatable, but that is what we are told)

Could it be, oh I give a wild guess here, that they are rubbing on the same shit ?

It seems you are very convicted to your postulation, and that’s fine too cause science is never really settled and science is subjective. That said, I am not inaccurate with what I shared.



Here is quote from one article, it has to be a typo, or it’s just false. The buck is in peak condition pre rut, not post, post he is run down, beat up and his fat is gone. I do not believe any minerals or nutrition go into the horns once they harden and the velvet is off. Also the antlers and body share nutrients throughout the growing season or there would not be enough time to grow a big rack after repairing the body back to to prime physical condition. A bad winter will impede the growth of the rack if the body is badly deteriorated, but a rack of some kind is going to grown regardless.


“ Once bucks reach peak body condition after the rut, all minerals and nutrition is absorbed by the developing antler.”

I will leave it at this, if you shoot a nice dark antlered buck or bull, don’t leave its rack out in the weather for too long or its “genetics” will wash off. Lol
Thanks for the tip Sherlock but any bimbo knows the weathering will fade the antlers just like it does to wood.
I only googled to see if I could find any credible science to contradict my opinion on the topic. There doesn’t seem to be any.
I couldn’t care less if you claim to have three hundred years of experience in the woods that doesn’t make you necessarily the smartest person.
A good friend of mine is an elk farmer in Alberta and his feeling are the same as mine. His elk are not getting their antler colouring from the bushes in there compound. Should I disregard the discussions I’ve had with my buddy and drop my critical thinking abilities to believe some aggressive Internet forum poster because he claims to be the most experienced ever?
In one of the articles it claims raised bucks from one area that are not allowed to rub on bushes will still always have darker antlers the bucks from another area regardless of any amount of rubbing indicating genetics playing a large part in colour. That article is also only opinion and not science.
I was helping with a friend harvest a VI Rosie a couple years ago. We were in a very remote location and noticed foot prints from a recent elk battle. My buddy looked down and there was a broken off antler that had the back four tines. When he picked it up there was blood leaking out of the open fracture. So this is information that leads me to believe that the capillary effect is still wicking blood to the surface of the porous bone and oxidizing to create the dark red staining colour the antlers had. Husky you may not be able understand the Capillary effect but try placing the end of a dry stick of pine in a bowl of water with red food colour and see what happens in a week. Then get back to me. Little science project for you.
Oh, we did also harvest a great six point Rosie an hour after finding that antler.

[Husky7mm]

Thanks for the tip Sherlock but any bimbo knows the weathering will fade the antlers just like it does to wood.
I only googled to see if I could find any credible science to contradict my opinion on the topic. There doesn’t seem to be any.
I couldn’t care less if you claim to have three hundred years of experience in the woods that doesn’t make you necessarily the smartest person.
A good friend of mine is an elk farmer in Alberta and his feeling are the same as mine. His elk are not getting their antler colouring from the bushes in there compound. Should I disregard the discussions I’ve had with my buddy and drop my critical thinking abilities to believe some aggressive Internet forum poster because he claims to be the most experienced ever?
In one of the articles it claims raised bucks from one area that are not allowed to rub on bushes will still always have darker antlers the bucks from another area regardless of any amount of rubbing indicating genetics playing a large part in colour. That article is also only opinion and not science.
I was helping with a friend harvest a VI Rosie a couple years ago. We were in a very remote location and noticed foot prints from a recent elk battle. My buddy looked down and there was a broken off antler that had the back four tines. When he picked it up there was blood leaking out of the open fracture. So this is information that leads me to believe that the capillary effect is still wicking blood to the surface of the porous bone and oxidizing to create the dark red staining colour the antlers had. Husky you may not be able understand the Capillary effect but try placing the end of a dry stick of pine in a bowl of water with red food colour and see what happens in a week. Then get back to me. Little science project for you.
Oh, we did also harvest a great six point Rosie an hour after finding that antler.


Good for you and your lil dick. Be well!

[fishmyster]

Good for you and your lil dick. Be well!
I take it you don’t like to discuss the science?

[snowhater]

How dare you question our Mr. Husky, the site internet know all wizard ?

[fishmyster]

I guess with all his experience he is the science.

[fishmyster]

If I play “Columbo” and put my critical thinking abilities to motion it is the uniformity of the antler colour that leaves the external colouring effect that leads to questioning.
I understand bucks and bulls grind there antlers into the ground and rub relentlessly onto selective vegetation. Now if I took a set of antlers and ground them into the ground like a deer would, and then scraped the trees with them just like a deer would, what do I think they would look like? Well the grinding into the ground would leave soil stains on the tips and the plant resins would be built up at the bases. Interestingly the real world colouring is actually quite different. It is ivory on the tips and then very uniform colouring down to the bases.
I guess until there is some credible science on the topic or someone who can convince me they have the ultimate amount of experience I’m sticking with my personal beliefs. Power to free thinking!!

[Husky7mm]

I take it you don’t like to discuss the science?

Oh is that what was going on, we were discussing science, sounds more like feelings…? Science is often a consensus on someone’s views or agenda. Never been more clear than in the last few years. $cience!!!!
Now do I think $cience has manipulated studies about deer antlers, likely not. But also like I said science is subjective and often never “settled”.
Now again I shared my thoughts based off my experiences, and observations and they are very qualified, AND they line up with much of what is shared on line from other knowledgable source’s.

If the colour is influenced from the inside out as well from blood oxidation than GREAT, but you would have to be an ostrich with his head in the sand to keep arguing that rubbing and the elements( dirt, sap, pitch, bark, mud) don’t play a major factor in the darkening of antlers.
If you got a foul taste in your mouth about how this has gone, go back in the thread and see where it went wrong….

How a person says something is suppose to mean something, context matters. Many similar words don’t mean the same thing.

[Husky7mm]

How dare you question our Mr. Husky, the site internet know all wizard ?

Did you read the whole thread, or just jump in here to troll?

[fishmyster]

Oh is that what was going on, we were discussing science, sounds more like feelings…? Science is often a consensus on someone’s views or agenda. Never been more clear than in the last few years. $cience!!!!
Now do I think $cience has manipulated studies about deer antlers, likely not. But also like I said science is subjective and often never “settled”.
Now again I shared my thoughts based off my experiences, and observations and they are very qualified, AND they line up with much of what is shared on line from other knowledgable source’s.

If the colour is influenced from the inside out as well from blood oxidation than GREAT, but you would have to be an ostrich with his head in the sand to keep arguing that rubbing and the elements( dirt, sap, pitch, bark, mud) don’t play a major factor in the darkening of antlers.
If you got a foul taste in your mouth about how this has gone, go back in the thread and see where it went wrong….

How a person says something is suppose to mean something, context matters. Many similar words don’t mean the same thing.
I thought you were out of this chat?
It’s the consistency of colouring that is of question. The dirt and soil staining theory just doesn’t add up. But I would have to be like a sheep with his head up his arse to not question something because others on the internet tell me it so. Your explanation doesn’t satisfy my curiosity.
thank you for your input.

[fishmyster]

https://www.dannerholzwhitetails.com/the-color-of-antler/#:~:text=Antlers%20come%20in%20a%20variety,on%20di fferent%20colors%20as%20well.
Hey Husky, what do you think about what this guy says? Do you think he has a small dock too?

[koothunter]

What color are its bones? If the argument is that diet changes the antler coloration, then fawns born and raised near burns will have dark colored bones. Antlers are bones and are white until they are rubbed on something else. This rubbing happens from scraping the velvet off until the antler is shed, not just during the rut. This is a very silly thread. Dark antlers come from rubbing on dark stuff, so yes, a deer hanging out in a burn has dark antlers.

[fishmyster]

What color are its bones? If the argument is that diet changes the antler coloration, then fawns born and raised near burns will have dark colored bones. Antlers are bones and are white until they are rubbed on something else. This rubbing happens from scraping the velvet off until the antler is shed, not just during the rut. This is a very silly thread. Dark antlers come from rubbing on dark stuff, so yes, a deer hanging out in a burn has dark antlers.
antlers are bones with blood circulating inside of them. Bone is porous material which allows blood to wick to drying surface which will react with air and leave colour staining on the antlers. This is another theory.

[fishmyster]

Let’s say I made a mock antler set out of steel. Not stainless steel but regular tool grade steel. Now steel is shiny and silvery in colour right? What would happen if I left the untreated steel antlers out in the weather? Would it stay the same colour or would the turn orange from oxidizing? I’m guessing they would go rusty from the reaction with the air and moisture. Now if I took that now rusty steel antlers and ground them into the dirt and rubbed them on the shrubs just like a deer would do what would the resulting appearance be like. I would expect after some rain the dirt would have washed off and the wear areas like the tips would be shiny because of the surface rust, which takes time to form, had been polished off. Kind of like the appearance of real antlers. The rusty brown areas without wear would not wash off.

[fishmyster]

http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/IMG_1457.JPG
http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/IMG_14381.JPG
http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/IMG_1453.JPG
http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/IMG_1464.JPG
http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/IMG_1465.JPG

[fishmyster]

http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/IMG_1466.JPG

[fishmyster]

I finally figured out how to load up photos. Thanks Wagonmaster.

Above photos are from a blacktail I harvested Dec 2nd this year. The poor guy didn’t go down very fast because I was shooting under a tree and didn’t get the vitals. In the process of finishing him off I had blasted one of his antlers off!
The photos of the antler was taken December 22nd after the antler sat in my boat for the time in between.
On the topic of antler colour have a zoomed in look at the shattered antler base photos. Then pan over to the antler exterior. It seems to me there is a remarkably consistent colour match between the inner core of the base and the exterior staining on the antler. The reaction of the liquid oozing out of the antler core with the air happened to create the same colour as the outer antler stains.
The photos of rubs were taken a couple days before I got the deer and were less than sixty yards from the harvest site. Likely my buck was the one recently hammering on those trees. My assumption anyway.
If antler colour comes mainly from exterior contact with shrubs dirt the wouldn’t there be some green or grey hue to the outer colouration? What would be the chances that all the environmental material that a buck rakes his antlers into would result in exterior staining that is a perfect colour match to the oxidizing blood from the inside of the antler?

[Gateholio]

Typically, aiming for parts of the deer other than the antlers results in a more effective kill shot.

[fishmyster]

Typically, aiming for parts of the deer other than the antlers results in a more effective kill shot.
Lol. It sure does. After I chased him down my scope was fogged up from heavy rain. I was also standing two meters away and couldn’t stand to watch any suffering! I looked down the barrel pool cue stile and aimed for the back of the neck hoping to damage as little meat as possible. Was a bit of a miss cue. If the same situation every happens to me again I’ll just blast thru the middle of the kill zone to finish. That particular deer blend heavy over one of the hind quarters while removing the meat. Had to pull it out later to finish cleaning it up. Yummy deer though!!

[Walking Buffalo]

Ugh.... this fish has the hardest head I've ever encountered.


Myster, explain to me why the solid bone between the marrow and the surface is white?

[hunterdon]

I don't believe rubbing antlers on tree bark is a significant factor. When a set of antlers are dark, they are generally fairly uniform in darkness over the entire surface area. The shape of the antler simply does not allow all surfaces to make contact with a tree or branch and as a result, lighter areas would occur.

I think you make a good point which I tend to agree with. However, the truth is I'm not sure why exactly some ungulates have unusually dark antlers. With that in mind, Ill offer a few guesses as to why dark antlers, since everybody else seemingly is guessing as well.

This year I took a 5x5 Whitey with very dark antlers. As dark as the antlers you show in your photo. Absolutely uniform throughout the entire antler with no white tipping at all. So here's my suggestion.

1- Is it possible that a hormone might affect the color of the antler bone? For example, Melanin affects the pigmentation of skin and hair color. As I understand it, there are 5 basic types of melanin. Could it be that there may be an usual amount of melanin in this individual animal that might be responsible in playing a role in bone color? After all, I have taken many bucks over the years in this same local where I took this buck and he is the only buck that I've taken with such dark horns. I' don't think he rubbed his antlers on some different branch than any other buck has in that area. So rubbing is probably a no go for me, except for one possibility which I touch on in my next point.

2- What about something in the soil? Could it be possible that the deer may have picked up some fungi which might affect the color of the bone. I'm thinking perhaps when the deer is rubbing off the velvet and still wet with blood and by rubbing in soil or tree shrub as there certainly are fungi of various kinds on trees. Now here is a possibility of tree rubbing affecting the final color. Not exactly the tree type but maybe the tree being a host for different fungi. I can tell you that fungi which are present in the forest affect the coloring of mushrooms creating a whole host of colors. Lobster mushrooms are a good example of this.

To be honest, I'm only guessing here, but perhaps a biologist if there are any here on this site, might shed some light on this curious topic. I'm all ears!!!

[fishmyster]

Ugh.... this fish has the hardest head I've ever encountered.


Myster, explain to me why the solid bone between the marrow and the surface is white?
I’m thinking the core of the antler is much porous than the outer dry hardened layer but there are still residual capillary sized channels the blood weeps thru to the surface. Kind of like when you first skin your knuckle and under the first layer of skin is still typical peach coloured skin but slowly blood weeps out to form a scab. I tried looking thru my jewellers loop at the bone and the outer white is lightest in colour direct under the surface then it is closer to the core. The pics I posted had to be shrunk so the definition quality was degraded.

[srupp]

COUPLE of places i know where you can observe several hundred deer muleys..over 1 or 2 days..the difference in antler colour is obvious especially when looking at 70-100 individuals at once..all in the same habitat....here in the cariboo..sheep from the fraser river are much lighter horn color...the TASEKO cali sheep are MUCH darker...however THAT situation is from the TASEKO sheep constantly rubbing on pitch covered growth....so much so that the horns are even with the pitch filling in the grooves even to the ridges...smooth.
saw a photo from HINTON ALBERTAS CADOMIN MINE..10 winter kills all totally different colors from light to dark..same sheep same location.
srupp

[hunterdon]

saw a photo from HINTON ALBERTAS CADOMIN MINE..10 winter kills all totally different colors from light to dark..same sheep same location.
srupp

Interesting and good to know. Maybe there just might be something to my 2 suggestions. Who knows for sure???

[Walking Buffalo]

I’m thinking the core of the antler is much porous than the outer dry hardened layer but there are still residual capillary sized channels the blood weeps thru to the surface. Kind of like when you first skin your knuckle and under the first layer of skin is still typical peach coloured skin but slowly blood weeps out to form a scab. I tried looking thru my jewellers loop at the bone and the outer white is lightest in colour direct under the surface then it is closer to the core. The pics I posted had to be shrunk so the definition quality was degraded.

I'm thinking that you are just too stubborn to understand that you are wrong.

Why is there no staining along your supposed channels?
Cut up that antler into cross and lengthwise sections. Place them into dishes with water based stains. Read what you see.

Antlers obtain their color from outside sources.
Some of it is from remaining blood when the velvet is shed.
Most of it is from various tannins rubbed into the antlers.
Plants, shrubs and trees all contain tannins that vary in color when oxidized.









COUPLE of places i know where you can observe several hundred deer muleys..over 1 or 2 days..the difference in antler colour is obvious especially when looking at 70-100 individuals at once..all in the same habitat....here in the cariboo..sheep from the fraser river are much lighter horn color...the TASEKO cali sheep are MUCH darker...however THAT situation is from the TASEKO sheep constantly rubbing on pitch covered growth....so much so that the horns are even with the pitch filling in the grooves even to the ridges...smooth.
saw a photo from HINTON ALBERTAS CADOMIN MINE..10 winter kills all totally different colors from light to dark..same sheep same location.
srupp


OK. Read your post three times and not sure if you are making some kind of conclusion as to what gives antlers and horns their color.

As you know,
Antlers are made from bone, which is ivory white.
There is an amino acid that will turn pink for a while in older antlers that have been sunbleached.
Any green on an old antler is from algae/mold.
All of the various red/orange/yellow, black and brown color is from various combinations of blood, tannins and dirt.

Horns are different than antlers. Made from keratin, they certainly to vary in color, from translucent white, cream, yellows, browns and black.
There probably is a genetic component to this, and more likely an environmental component, food/mineral in diet.
Of course, external staining occurs, as is well noted with rams from coal mines.

Every buck, bull, or ram goes through a unique life process resulting in various antler/horn colors.
Particularly older/larger bucks and bulls. They are more likely to rub on larger trees, particularly evergreens, than a small buck/bull.
This is often why big bucks will have very dark antlers compared to the young bucks in that area.




Interesting and good to know. Maybe there just might be something to my 2 suggestions. Who knows for sure???
It is well known, many people know.... your suggestions hold very little promise of being correct.

[fishmyster]

I'm thinking that you are just too stubborn to understand that you are wrong.

Why is there no staining along your supposed channels?
Cut up that antler into cross and lengthwise sections. Place them into dishes with water based stains. Read what you see.

Antlers obtain their color from outside sources.
Some of it is from remaining blood when the velvet is shed.
Most of it is from various tannins rubbed into the antlers.
Plants, shrubs and trees all contain tannins that vary in color when oxidized.











OK. Read your post three times and not sure if you are making some kind of conclusion as to what gives antlers and horns their color.

As you know,
Antlers are made from bone, which is ivory white.
There is an amino acid that will turn pink for a while in older antlers that have been sunbleached.
Any green on an old antler is from algae/mold.
All of the various red/orange/yellow, black and brown color is from various combinations of blood, tannins and dirt.

Horns are different than antlers. Made from keratin, they certainly to vary in color, from translucent white, cream, yellows, browns and black.
There probably is a genetic component to this, and more likely an environmental component, food/mineral in diet.
Of course, external staining occurs, as is well noted with rams from coal mines.

Every buck, bull, or ram goes through a unique life process resulting in various antler/horn colors.
Particularly older/larger bucks and bulls. They are more likely to rub on larger trees, particularly evergreens, than a small buck/bull.
This is often why big bucks will have very dark antlers compared to the young bucks in that area.




It is well known, many people know.... your suggestions hold very little promise of being correct.

Do you think the colour match from the inner core of the antler is pure coincidence??

There isn’t colour staining in the capillarity type channels because they are micro sizes and sparely distributed. They also aren’t exposed to air buy being encapsulated within the bone so aren’t subject to the oxidizing effect silly.

I like your idea of cutting the antler up for further inspection. Have you done this? Have any pictures to show your results?

[fishmyster]

https://www.britannica.com/science/periosteum

Apparently in human bones there are small blood vessels delivering blood to the surface layers. Above is only one of the hundred or more links to get lost in explaining the structure of bone.

Wouldn’t it be reasonable to assume deer antlers have similar bone structure to human bones while in velvet? The blood vessels that supply blood thru the hard osteon layer to the outer periosteum layer must exist in growing deer antlers. Deer aren’t like from outer space, right?? After the velvet comes off the left over blood vessels wouldn’t just vanish. It would take drying to shrink the vessels closed.

The more I’m digging into this the more blood leakage to the outer antler and oxidizing theory makes even more sense!! I’m starting to get the impression that moist conditions would slow down the hardening effect and allow blood transfer to the outer antler layer to continue longer then dry conditions. Possibly mild conditions of osteoporosis in deer could explain unusually darker antlers in one individual amongst population of deer live in close proximity.

[TheObserver]

Do you think the colour match from the inner core of the antler is pure coincidence??

There isn’t colour staining in the capillarity type channels because they are micro sizes and sparely distributed. They also aren’t exposed to air buy being encapsulated within the bone so aren’t subject to the oxidizing effect silly.

I like your idea of cutting the antler up for further inspection. Have you done this? Have any pictures to show your results?

We can pretty well all agree, MD, WT, and BT bloods appearance is the same. Same with Elk be it rosie or rocky mnt. And if you want to protest that whatever they are all extremely similar tone of RED. Their antlers will all be the same tone of blood inside the core.

Why then are rosies and blackies antlers a lot of the times stained red when living in same areas? Are they sharing genetics too?

Then drive to the interior see MD WT and rocky mnts and I can bet you wont find many red antlers. But if their blood is all red wouldnt their antlers all stain red too by your theory?

Lol your putting a lot of effort into this theres no way I could even keep up, you should become a bio.

Like I said in the first few pages, CUMULATIVE EFFECTS with rubbing and atmospheric conditions almost certainly the largest factor by far!

[fishmyster]

We can pretty well all agree, MD, WT, and BT bloods appearance is the same. Same with Elk be it rosie or rocky mnt. And if you want to protest that whatever they are all extremely similar tone of RED. Their antlers will all be the same tone of blood inside the core.

Why then are rosies and blackies antlers a lot of the times stained red when living in same areas? Are they sharing genetics too?

Then drive to the interior see MD WT and rocky mnts and I can bet you wont find many red antlers. But if their blood is all red wouldnt their antlers all stain red too by your theory?

Lol your putting a lot of effort into this theres no way I could even keep up, you should become a bio.

Like I said in the first few pages, CUMULATIVE EFFECTS with rubbing and atmospheric conditions almost certainly the largest factor by far!

Thank you observer for engaging respectfully on this topic.

Your post touches of on the question of mine nobody else has dared to answer. That question is, from the example photos I posted is the colour match of oxidized blood in the antler core and outer surface a coincidence?? I fully agree all ungulates have red blood. So did all the zillion fish I have murdered over my time including my own blood. What I don’t know is if all the blood from so many critters dries out and oxidizes to the same shade of red? My posted photos are only one example which is a match from inner to outer antler colour. Is it a coincidence or not? Maybe someone else has an example of a different shade of coloured antler with a colour shade different from the core. I would be curious to know.
I have done a fair bit of research into precipitation, surface and ground water chemistry while studying limnology. The variability in dissolved and suspended elements of surface and ground water just in B.C. is mind boggling. These variables in surface and ground water chemistry is because of the different geological makeup of the catchment areas of which the waters are in contact with. I’m willing to go out on a limb and guess it is geology that could create various levels of mineral content in ungulate blood resulting in different shades of colour when oxidizing in exposed air.

Maybe someone out there has shot a dark chocolate antler off some poor interior ungulate to compare with? All my interior moose and elk antlers have been left hanging in trees for a few years so wouldn’t be good examples.

[Walking Buffalo]

With your experience and interest in biochemistry, perform the experiments I suggested earlier.

You will come up with answers to your assumptions that you will have to accept.

[fishmyster]

With your experience and interest in biochemistry, perform the experiments I suggested earlier.

You will come up with answers to your assumptions that you will have to accept.

I will try asking again!! Do you think the colour match is just a coincidence?

If I did the experiment which you recommended what do you think will be the results? Have you done this yourself?

[fishmyster]

https://www.mediastorehouse.com/science-photo-library/deer-antler-sem-9195159.html
Interesting photo of deer antler. I believe it is more evidence supporting blood leakage to the surface theory.