Logging practises

[JDR]

I've been noticing a number of clearcuts in recent years that have not been cleaned up as well as they used to be or perhaps should be in my opinion. It seems the ones where the roads are still active are cleaned up, but the ones with deactivated roads not so much. I'm starting to get the impression that some logging companies figure if people can't see it, they don't have to clean it up. Is this permitted? It’s my understanding that any logs that are not hauled away are to be placed in slash piles and burned when the temps are cooler. I realize logging companies are going to miss a log here and there and I’m not concerned about that, but I’ve seen some clearcuts that are completely littered with logs that were not fresh and had been left. Navigating these clearcuts becomes nearly impossible for humans and I’m sure large game would mostly avoid them as well.

A few questions:


Where can I find the rules regarding the clean up of clearcuts?
Do logging companies have a certain amount of time before they have to clean it up?
What’s the best way to find out which company logged a certain area?
Does the ministry regularly visit logging sites to ensure standards are being followed?
If I wanted to file a complaint, what’s the best way to do it?


Any info is appreciated. I don't know much about the topic, so looking to be educated here.

[VLD43]

What you are seeing is not unique to your area. Over here on the island, the logging practices and reforestation I have seen is beyond pathetic. I think the logging companies play the government, pleading poverty, while getting the trees out as quickly as they can. If the Government starts enforcing the rules, these companies will whine like a gut shot dog, and tell the Government they will have to start laying off loggers. At that point the Government will back of. It has always been my conclusion on the Island (the land of gates) that gates are installed on logging roads to keep the public in the dark. If most people saw the mess these companies create, and their poor logging practices, there would be a large back lash. Good luck with your quest

[TheObserver]

I've been noticing a number of clearcuts in recent years that have not been cleaned up as well as they used to be or perhaps should be in my opinion. It seems the ones where the roads are still active are cleaned up, but the ones with deactivated roads not so much. I'm starting to get the impression that some logging companies figure if people can't see it, they don't have to clean it up. Is this permitted? It’s my understanding that any logs that are not hauled away are to be placed in slash piles and burned when the temps are cooler. I realize logging companies are going to miss a log here and there and I’m not concerned about that, but I’ve seen some clearcuts that are completely littered with logs that were not fresh and had been left. Navigating these clearcuts becomes nearly impossible for humans and I’m sure large game would mostly avoid them as well.

A few questions:


Where can I find the rules regarding the clean up of clearcuts?
Do logging companies have a certain amount of time before they have to clean it up?
What’s the best way to find out which company logged a certain area?
Does the ministry regularly visit logging sites to ensure standards are being followed?
If I wanted to file a complaint, what’s the best way to do it?


Any info is appreciated. I don't know much about the topic, so looking to be educated here.

Best way to find out what company logged an area is to talk with anyone out there working, or call the ministry of forest/department of natural rescoures for the Okanagan and ask them who has the contract for the area/FSR and they should be able to provide you with names and contact information. This is a good idea, some of the stuff I have to walk through in region to is just, f***ed. Be it a few years after the operation or 10-15 some of the stuff takes forever to rot. If you get some questions to your answers you should post them back here.

[wideopenthrottle]

logging companies get fined for any merchanible timber...in the old days they left quite a bit but had salvage crews come in and do clean up...if they leave minimal wood it is no longer profitable for salvagers and in the end more wood gets left behind...not always a straightforward cause and effect...

[Downwindtracker2]

Good Questions.

[koothunter]

I've been noticing a number of clearcuts in recent years that have not been cleaned up as well as they used to be or perhaps should be in my opinion. It seems the ones where the roads are still active are cleaned up, but the ones with deactivated roads not so much. I'm starting to get the impression that some logging companies figure if people can't see it, they don't have to clean it up. Is this permitted? It’s my understanding that any logs that are not hauled away are to be placed in slash piles and burned when the temps are cooler. I realize logging companies are going to miss a log here and there and I’m not concerned about that, but I’ve seen some clearcuts that are completely littered with logs that were not fresh and had been left. Navigating these clearcuts becomes nearly impossible for humans and I’m sure large game would mostly avoid them as well.

A few questions:


Where can I find the rules regarding the clean up of clearcuts?
Do logging companies have a certain amount of time before they have to clean it up?
What’s the best way to find out which company logged a certain area?
Does the ministry regularly visit logging sites to ensure standards are being followed?
If I wanted to file a complaint, what’s the best way to do it?


Any info is appreciated. I don't know much about the topic, so looking to be educated here.


Every cutblock is assessed for waste. The survey is very thorough and overkill in my opinion. Any merchantable wood left on site is paid for by the licensee. The licensee also has their cut reduced by the same amount, so they get hit twice for waste. The slash piles are also assessed as part of this, so it's a bad idea to put logs in the slash piles. These assessments must be done prior to slash burning as well. I work for a forest company and manage the reforestation program. There are many factors that play into how much wood is left on the blocks.
1. Often the logs left are already down prior to logging and would be considered "dead useless" or "dead potential" from the timber cruise. The threshold for this is 50% sound volume. Often it's not worth it to even pick up the dead downed logs.
2. Certain areas have targets for course woody debris (CWD). In this case logs are often left on purpose for habitat for small critters and nutrient cycling.
3. Sometimes logs are left to create plantable spots to protect the trees that are planted to regenerate the block. The microsites increase moisture and shade, and protect the seedlings from heat and snowpress. This sometimes makes the block very difficult to walk through for people and animals. This can be on purpose to deter animals from browsing and trampling the new seedlings. I deal with this often from range cattle, and wish there was more slash left on some blocks.
4. Sometimes wood left in a nice pile on the landing is because there is not enough for a load and it is cheaper to pay for the waste, then pay to haul it. Yes this looks bad, but it's simple economics.

I agree there are some cases that are inexcusable, but the licensee is not getting off without paying for it. There is a legal process in place to address this.

Typically the problems are more of a lack of understanding by the general public and they think it's bad without really knowing how things work.

Also, to the comment about gates on the island, I believe that is mostly private. Not much you can do there. It's like someone coming into your fenced backyard and saying it is a messy junk hole. Might be true, but it's your property and you can do what you like with it.

[Downwindtracker2]

CPR got a big chunk of Vancouver Island.That's where that private comes from.

[high horse Hal]

wood debris is habitat too, clean is so subjective

maybe try here for answers
https://www.bcfpb.ca/

[CranePete]

Thanks, koothunter, for your thorough explanation.

[tuner]

Every cutblock is assessed for waste. The survey is very thorough and overkill in my opinion. Any merchantable wood left on site is paid for by the licensee. The licensee also has their cut reduced by the same amount, so they get hit twice for waste. The slash piles are also assessed as part of this, so it's a bad idea to put logs in the slash piles. These assessments must be done prior to slash burning as well. I work for a forest company and manage the reforestation program. There are many factors that play into how much wood is left on the blocks.
1. Often the logs left are already down prior to logging and would be considered "dead useless" or "dead potential" from the timber cruise. The threshold for this is 50% sound volume. Often it's not worth it to even pick up the dead downed logs.
2. Certain areas have targets for course woody debris (CWD). In this case logs are often left on purpose for habitat for small critters and nutrient cycling.
3. Sometimes logs are left to create plantable spots to protect the trees that are planted to regenerate the block. The microsites increase moisture and shade, and protect the seedlings from heat and snowpress. This sometimes makes the block very difficult to walk through for people and animals. This can be on purpose to deter animals from browsing and trampling the new seedlings. I deal with this often from range cattle, and wish there was more slash left on some blocks.
4. Sometimes wood left in a nice pile on the landing is because there is not enough for a load and it is cheaper to pay for the waste, then pay to haul it. Yes this looks bad, but it's simple economics.

I agree there are some cases that are inexcusable, but the licensee is not getting off without paying for it. There is a legal process in place to address this.

Typically the problems are more of a lack of understanding by the general public and they think it's bad without really knowing how things work.

Also, to the comment about gates on the island, I believe that is mostly private. Not much you can do there. It's like someone coming into your fenced backyard and saying it is a messy junk hole. Might be true, but it's your property and you can do what you like with it.

Hey KH or anyone who might know, I’ve seen some cut blocks that have had the stumps pulled out of the ground and left before replanting, what is ultimately the purpose of this practice?

[dakoda62]

The fines that are imposed are ridiculous $1000 fine 1 large saw log, as far they see it it's part of the business plan.

[ACE]

Hey KH or anyone who might know, I’ve seen some cut blocks that have had the stumps pulled out of the ground and left before replanting, what is ultimately the purpose of this practice?

​Fir stumps . . . root rot?

[justachip]

Yes they stump the blocks for root rot. It is a spore or fungus so exposed to the air it is supposed to die and prevent the spread I believe.

[JDR]

Thank you for the responses everyone and really appreciate the detailed answer, koothunter.

Thanks for the hyperlink, high horse Hal. Some good info there, especially under the Q&A section.

koothunter, some of what you say I wasn’t aware of and it makes sense. The part I don’t fully understand is if the licensee has paid for all the timber including what it left on the ground, the ministry is satisfied because it’s been paid; however, now there’s a big mess that no one wants to clean up. Who’s responsible? I take it this is when the legal process ensues? A few follow up questions for you if you don’t mind:



Who assesses the cutblock for waste and is the survey/report publicly available? Does it give reasons as to why waste was left?
For logs that are left, is this at the behest of the ministry or the licensee?
I presume the licensee doesn’t pay for “dead useless” logs only for what it cuts down?
Are timber cruise reports publicly available?

[KodiakHntr]

I’m not koothunter but I do have a touch of exposure to some of this stuff over the last 30+
years in the industry.
As to the “who’s responsible” if there is a “mess” left behind, thats kind of a convoluted question. While it isn’t unheard of that a licensee might be told to go back and clean up residual waste based on public complaint, it is very unlikely to happen. “Mess” is a very subjective term, and simply because you think its too difficult to walk through doesn’t mean it doesn’t have value to the forest and wildlife. Small mammals and birds will utilize blocks that have high coarse woody debris content to a much higher degree than a clean block. More nutrients are left long term. Fur bearers will have better habitat.
Yes, it might be hard to walk through for you or a deer for now, but that doesn’t mean it doesn’t have value.


As to your other questions:
1) Licensed/Certified Waste Assessors are higher to do the assessment. The report goes to the Licensee and the Government. Not entirely sure if the report is available to the public, but I don’t *think* that it is uploaded by anyone at the ministry to a website or anything. Not that it would mean anything to the average lay person, it’s basically a line item on a spreadsheet with the cutting permit and block number and the location and the amount of measured residual volume left per hectare in the block on the ground. It isn’t a “report” like you might be envisioning that has words describing the why of anything, it’s simply numbers for the most part.

2) Logs left could be any number of reasons really, and none of it is as simple as a “hey leave those there” directive by any one party. Snow depth and pre harvest levels of blowdown, how good the buncherman/skidderman/chokerman is at finding stuff on the ground, quality of the logs themselves, how thorough the licensee’s harvest supervisor is, directive on post harvest coarse woody debris levels… thats only a few possibilities.

3) Sorta. A dead useless log is a dead useless log. The very definition means it has no commercial value to anyone. The tough part is the area between a dead potential log and a dead useless log.
There are a lot of variables involved in timber valuation - some Licensee have people whose entire careers are based solely around Timber valuation.
Example: Scale based sale - the licensee pays stumpage for what crosses the scales. Cruise based sale- they pay for what the timber cruise says is there for volume in all USEFUL grades of logs, whether it actually exists on the ground or not. If you want to be completely baffled feel free to peruse the latest BC Timber Cruising Manual, google will pop
that up in a search. What the Province considers a log can be different from what a mill considers a log (based on their product, saw systems, product destination (who they sell to) etc etc)…..

4) Not any of the thousands that I’ve seen. Licensee pays a timber cruising company to cruise a block and then generate a cruise compilation. That is provided to the Licensee. A few pages of the compilation is given to the Province with an Appraisal as part of a cutting permit application but thats it. No point as they are typically 150 pages of data that would mean virtually nothing to the average lay person. (Or for that matter, even some people who have had years of exposure to timber cruises….)

Thats a quick and dirty over view as I drink coffee this morning. Undoubtedly I have glossed over or missed some important points that someone will be offended by who also works in the industry, but your 4 questions would take hours and hours of dialogue to really flesh out the intricacies.

[GreyDog]

Companies like CanFor provide their own oversight so their rules are likely to vary from those imposed on on small operators (the majority of which have been eliminated anyway). Cruisers and foresters who work for them produce the report they are supposed to, if they want to keep working. In the big picture, it is probably preferable for debris to be allowed to rot down rather than to pile it up and burn it. GD

[KodiakHntr]

Companies like CanFor provide their own oversight so their rules are likely to vary from those imposed on on small operators (the majority of which have been eliminated anyway). Cruisers and foresters who work for them produce the report they are supposed to, if they want to keep working….GD

I can speak directly to those particular points, and say quite clearly that your assessment is about as far from correct as it can possibly get. I understand how one could possibly think that, but you are definitely off base.

Foresters need accurate information, not imaginary data to create logging schedules and business plans. Timber cruisers don’t make any determinations on anything other than whether a tree is legally considered potential or not.
It doesn’t matter if a cutblock has 3 000m3 or 50 000m3 in it as a harvest schedule is typically set months in advance, but if a timber cruise says that block has 15 000m3 and it turns out to have 5 000m3 or 25 000m3 that information isn’t accurate and THAT creates major problems. That cruising company doesn’t get to make many errors like that, and they’ll find a different place to try and work in short order.

[JDR]

Thanks for the response, KodiakHntr. As is often the case, things are rarely ever black and white, and often much more nuanced than one may have anticipated. I guess the question then is what’s the right balance? What is a reasonable amount of waste to leave behind for a given area? This is nearly impossible for the lay person to determine so then it would seem the logical thing to do, if there is a concern, is to contact the Forest Practices Board and go from there.

[KodiakHntr]

No problem.
You could also contact your local Ministry of Forests office (sorry, can’t keep track of their alphabet acronym anymore) and explain your concerns to the admin who will direct your call to the most relevant government contact. That will likely get you the quickest response.

[2chodi]

You could try contacting: https://www.bcfpb.ca/

[browningboy]

Was in northern Ontario on a fishing trip and noticed when they were done clear cuts it was very nice, not a slash pile, they chipped up a lot of the garbage and replanted, looked really nice to be honest. Obviously more work but what’s a better practise? Sure it’s up for debate

[high horse Hal]

every block has a prescription, a plan going forward, based on too many factors for a simple person like me to fully grasp
I had questions regarding a trapline and the logging impacts, the science felt like smoke-n-mirrors but supposedly was the best plan
Remember, its lumber farming first, habitat and wildlife is a consideration in there somewhere, sometimes

I asked a Tolko forester once if where they had 'leaves' or reserves for mule deer, he said they do not manage for deer

[koothunter]

I can speak directly to those particular points, and say quite clearly that your assessment is about as far from correct as it can possibly get. I understand how one could possibly think that, but you are definitely off base.

Foresters need accurate information, not imaginary data to create logging schedules and business plans. Timber cruisers don’t make any determinations on anything other than whether a tree is legally considered potential or not.
It doesn’t matter if a cutblock has 3 000m3 or 50 000m3 in it as a harvest schedule is typically set months in advance, but if a timber cruise says that block has 15 000m3 and it turns out to have 5 000m3 or 25 000m3 that information isn’t accurate and THAT creates major problems. That cruising company doesn’t get to make many errors like that, and they’ll find a different place to try and work in short order.

This is true and the cruises are potentially "check cruised" by the ministry. There is no benefit in trying to fudge cruise numbers. The "reports" produced are nothing more than numbers, there is no place to even inject opinions or rationalize.

[koothunter]

Thank you for the responses everyone and really appreciate the detailed answer, koothunter.

Thanks for the hyperlink, high horse Hal. Some good info there, especially under the Q&A section.

koothunter, some of what you say I wasn’t aware of and it makes sense. The part I don’t fully understand is if the licensee has paid for all the timber including what it left on the ground, the ministry is satisfied because it’s been paid; however, now there’s a big mess that no one wants to clean up. Who’s responsible? I take it this is when the legal process ensues? A few follow up questions for you if you don’t mind:



Who assesses the cutblock for waste and is the survey/report publicly available? Does it give reasons as to why waste was left?
For logs that are left, is this at the behest of the ministry or the licensee?
I presume the licensee doesn’t pay for “dead useless” logs only for what it cuts down?
Are timber cruise reports publicly available?




Kodiak has already addressed most of this well. I'll add a few things.

As mentioned, "mess" is very subjective. Sometimes these blocks were in forests that you wouldn't have wanted to walk through before logging because or downed trees.

1. The assessor has to have a scalers ticket in BC. The report does not state why logs or waste was left. That information could be had from the licensee if you knew who it was, but often there is not really a written or specified reason for the waste. Even the ministry has different "benchmarks" for acceptable waste based on the BEC (ecosystem classification) unit. This means that they understand that some sites will have higher waste numbers than others.

2. Well answered by Kodiak. There is very little ministry "oversight" during harvest. Most ministry checks are done after harvest is complete, sometimes 4-5yrs later. No licensee/logger is willfully leaving good logs on purpose.

3. Correct. Dead useless is just that, useless. Each log that is not dead useless falls into a certain "grade". Depending on grade, the stumpage rate can change. As Kodiak mentioned the logs that are borderline dead useless/potential are usually left because they often can't even be handled by machines without breaking. The dead potential usually falls into a grade 6 log and is only $.25/m3 stumpage, so it's not really a big deal to leave them. As Kodiak states, the cruise manual/procedures and waste manual/procedures are very complex and are frustrating to the surveyors. These were written by people with university degrees and very little hands on field experience.

4. Well answered by Kodiak. Would be pretty difficult to glean anything from it without having used them a lot. Best info would be gained from a meeting with the licensee.

It's really easy for the public to assume that things are awry in the industry. Truth is most of the loggers/planners/surveyors are people who love the bush and spend lots of time hunting/fishing/hiking/ etc. No one is out there trying to destroy the forests. We work within legislation and the best practices available. If licensees could log nice clean forests all the time they would, but with a shrinking harvestable land base due to FN, grizzly and caribou habitat, Old Growth deferral, visual quality objectives, community watershed constraints, forest health, and a host of other difficulties, they are forced to harvest less than ideal forests on difficult ground. This leads to less than ideal looking cutblocks post-harvest.

Thank you for trying to learn about the industry.

[Downwindtracker2]

I once said, we eat trees in BC. Growing up we were taught half of each dollar was forestry related. I've set beads,built and millwrighted in pulp and paper mills and sawmills. In my case the whole dollar.

[SeaScene]

B.C. timber industry in throes of change, as premier warns of ‘exhausted forests’ British Columbia’s forest sector has “never been under greater stress,” Premier David Eby says.

There is an “inescapable recognition that change is needed to ensure our forest industry is sustainable,” he writes in his mandate letter for the new forests minister, Bruce Ralston.

Eby’s letter to the minister of water, land and resource stewardship, Nathan Cullen, meanwhile, says “short-term thinking” in land management has led to “exhausted forests.”

The new premier’s pointed language to his ministers highlights how British Columbia’s forests sector is in the throes of change, as the province embarks on plans to “modernize” how forests are managed amid ecological concerns, fluctuating lumber prices and dwindling supply of trees for harvesting.

Bob Simpson, who served as mayor of Quesnel, B.C., a longtime forestry community, between 2014 and 2022, said the province’s forest sector is “stuck in a time warp,” carrying on with clear-cutting and exporting raw logs and lumber at a pace ecosystems and the timber supply cannot maintain.

I live on logging truck expressway Beaver Ck Rd. The forests look like a nuclear hit. Black Tail deer nowhere near abundance of even 5 years ago. Trappers are now extinct here. Cuts right down to beautiful shoreline of lakes we no longer go to and swim in. Mosaic has warning signs at the gates that look like checkpoint charlie ww2. Imagine the President of Brazil announcing to the world that the amazon was squandered and wasted. Globally shit would hit the international fan. BC logo globally is "Supernatural BC" ...should be super corrupt, sell out BC. Hunters and fishers, trappers, hikers, prospectors, cyclists ... in the eyes of profit obsessed greedy logging industry corrupt elite ... big wealth for the few ... minimal jobs for forest workers. At least the Prime Minister of British Columbia announces Squadered/Wasted. Hey, we all know that. But thanks anyway... a start is a least a hope.

[adriaticum]

Forestry employees and lobbyists tells us that all is well.
We sell trees to the UK so they can burn "green" energy.

[mike31154]

Re negotiating log littered cutblocks. I can assure you that ungulates have little to no problem making their way across/thru difficult terrain. Personal experience tracking a whitetail down a messy block. I was moving stealthily trying to keep out of sight & was able to stay with it for the 1st bit, but when it finally decided it was time to leave dodge it disappeared with amazing agility. There's a reason deer fences along highways are a minimum of 8' tall.

On another occasion while fishing a lake in my canoe I was able to sneak within 20 yards of a moose feeding on willows in thick bush at the edge of the lake. Again, when it caught wind of me it was gone in a flash crashing through the timber. I put ashore to check out the spot it was feeding & it was like an ultimate obstacle course that would challenge the footing & balance skills of a young marine lol.

[moosinaround]

Forestry employees and lobbyists tells us that all is well.
We sell trees to the UK so they can burn "green" energy.
We can regrow trees, and the manufacture of those pellets provide income for resident British Columbians! Ya, investors do well, so if someone making money bothers you, you put up the investment money! I do not think that logging, paving, and painting green is the answer, but somewhere along the line, there needs to be industry to suppourt the people! No industry, more poverty, because folks sure are not slowing down in the increase of the population!!! moosin

[Downwindtracker2]

They have over cut for years. We 've blown through our wad and we are begging on the street now. We have had long sad discussions about mills being shut down.

[wideopenthrottle]

that story of the uk pellets was bs....the money you would get from pellets wouldn't pay to move machines to get it...why would you beleive they would turn high value logs into cheap pellets makes no sense..total bullchit

[SeaScene]

Black Tail deer are a forest deer.

"Black Tail Deer populations are being threatened by logging of older coastal forests; deer needs these forests for winter range because they have a lot of food on the ground and little snow."

"Throughout most of their range, the habitat of Sitka
black-tailed deer has been affected by extraction of timber.
Clearcuts produce large amounts of biomass in summer
but offer little snow interception in winter, while the dense
canopy of old-growth forests provides snow interception,
as well as a litter of lichen and twigs. Several studies have
demonstrated that snow can be a major factor influencing
winter survival of Columbian black-tailed deer and Sitka
black-tailed deer (Klein and Olson 1960; Bunnell et al.
1978; Jones and Mason 1983), both through the reduction
of available forage (Harestad et al. 1982; Hanley and
McKendrick 1983; Hovey and Harestad 1992) and because
of the increased energetic costs of movement (Parker et
al. 1984). Black-tailed deer sinking depth (Bunnell et al.
1990a,b) was greatest in clearcuts and intermediate in 20-
year-old stands. It was lowest in old-growth and 80-year-old
stands. The energy cost of moving through 25 cm of snow is
about 2.5 times that of moving through 10 cm and increases
as snowpacks become deeper (Parker et al. 1984). In"

[pro 111]

What you are seeing is not unique to your area. Over here on the island, the logging practices and reforestation I have seen is beyond pathetic. I think the logging companies play the government, pleading poverty, while getting the trees out as quickly as they can. If the Government starts enforcing the rules, these companies will whine like a gut shot dog, and tell the Government they will have to start laying off loggers. At that point the Government will back of. It has always been my conclusion on the Island (the land of gates) that gates are installed on logging roads to keep the public in the dark. If most people saw the mess these companies create, and their poor logging practices, there would be a large back lash. Good luck with your quest
if most people understood that logging was 100% the one and only reason hunters have any access to the back country here on the coast they might open there eyes and start supporting it. gates only got put up for three reasons. people were dumping garbage and vandalizing equipment. Then there was forest fire risk. You would be quick to bitch at the garbage being dumped and a fire in a cutblock that spread into the timber. logging is not perfect . on the coast here it doesnt matter how you clean it up. in ten years the ground is green again.
Also propper cleanup usually means deacting the living shit outa the roads. Hard core hunters love this.. Lazy **** hunters hate it..It saves alot a critters..

[pro 111]

Black Tail deer are a forest deer.

"Black Tail Deer populations are being threatened by logging of older coastal forests; deer needs these forests for winter range because they have a lot of food on the ground and little snow."

"Throughout most of their range, the habitat of Sitka
black-tailed deer has been affected by extraction of timber.
Clearcuts produce large amounts of biomass in summer
but offer little snow interception in winter, while the dense
canopy of old-growth forests provides snow interception,
as well as a litter of lichen and twigs. Several studies have
demonstrated that snow can be a major factor influencing
winter survival of Columbian black-tailed deer and Sitka
black-tailed deer (Klein and Olson 1960; Bunnell et al.
1978; Jones and Mason 1983), both through the reduction
of available forage (Harestad et al. 1982; Hanley and
McKendrick 1983; Hovey and Harestad 1992) and because
of the increased energetic costs of movement (Parker et
al. 1984). Black-tailed deer sinking depth (Bunnell et al.
1990a,b) was greatest in clearcuts and intermediate in 20-
year-old stands. It was lowest in old-growth and 80-year-old
stands. The energy cost of moving through 25 cm of snow is
about 2.5 times that of moving through 10 cm and increases
as snowpacks become deeper (Parker et al. 1984). In"
So 60 year old second growth stands dont keep snow out. with clearcuts in between? I dont know where you hunt but the way logging is done where i am at theres no bigger clear cut than 40 hectares. Slash with second growth timber surounding it holds the highest deer densities anywhere i have ever seen. Try your luck out on some timbered island somewhere on the coast where theres wolfes , bears and cats there too.. Let me know how you make out..

[.330 Dakota]

I asked a professional forester friend of mine about the debris left in cutblocks. His answer was that the Govt Biologists believe leaving some there protects the eco-systems living in the soil, such as grubs, worms bugs etc that help rebuild the forest. Im not a scientist so who am I to argue,,sures looks like a mess to me.

[mike31154]

Most of the areas I've hunted have been cleaned up fairly well with slash piles burned when wildfire danger is low. I've had a much more difficult time navigating through uncut tracts with dead fall all over the place. Pros & cons to every situation for both wildlife & hunters. Here's a photo of a burned slash pile with new growth poking through. No idea whether it's planted or came up naturally.

https://onedrive.live.com/embed?resid=A0157E1B64909474%2131663&authkey=%21ABmivelJU5NsFyI&width=999999&height=1024

I'll take a messy cut block vs stumbling thru thick timber any day of the week for moving about or recovering an animal. Things get pretty nasty toute de suite beyond this clearing. ;)
https://onedrive.live.com/embed?resid=A0157E1B64909474%2146243&authkey=%21AG2n5wEvycTYsXc&width=1024&height=999999

[TyTy]

The unique part about BC forests is we can grow saw logs on 60-100 year rotations. Not many places in the world that can claim that. While these forests are ‘managed’ they are by no means tree farming like in the US or New Zealand and are very much wildlife habitat. Forests will trend again to multi story canopy structures characteristic of ‘old growth’ habitat as we approach the third cutting rotation.

The greatest threats to BC’s forests are the general public yahoos and the lack of investment from government into diverse silvicultural practices/treatments.

[KodiakHntr]

Here's a photo of a burned slash pile with new growth poking through. No idea whether it's planted or came up naturally.


That is absolutely a fresh planted seedling.

[TheObserver]

if most people understood that logging was 100% the one and only reason hunters have any access to the back country here on the coast they might open there eyes and start supporting it. gates only got put up for three reasons. people were dumping garbage and vandalizing equipment. Then there was forest fire risk. You would be quick to bitch at the garbage being dumped and a fire in a cutblock that spread into the timber. logging is not perfect . on the coast here it doesnt matter how you clean it up. in ten years the ground is green again.
Also propper cleanup usually means deacting the living shit outa the roads. Hard core hunters love this.. Lazy **** hunters hate it..It saves alot a critters..

We need logging, this is clear, I am not against it. We overharvest, extremely and a lot of the pratices are not great compared with other places, this is clear, we also spray glyphosate, not good. I am against what and how our government lets happen.

What is also clear is that I have heard this arguement before, if we didn't log that area you would never be here, maybe, maybe not depends where/how far and how bad I want to get there. But if they didn't log that area, literally EVERYWHERE would be back country there, it is an extremely ridiculous thing to say when you really sit back and think about it.

[pro 111]

well then if you hunt the coast . dont travel on one logging road to get to where you want to go. Let me know how full your freezer is at the end a the season. then will have the same conversation...

[VLD43]

if most people understood that logging was 100% the one and only reason hunters have any access to the back country here on the coast they might open there eyes and start supporting it. gates only got put up for three reasons. people were dumping garbage and vandalizing equipment. Then there was forest fire risk. You would be quick to bitch at the garbage being dumped and a fire in a cutblock that spread into the timber. logging is not perfect . on the coast here it doesnt matter how you clean it up. in ten years the ground is green again.
Also propper cleanup usually means deacting the living shit outa the roads. Hard core hunters love this.. Lazy **** hunters hate it..It saves alot a critters..

Logging 40 years ago and logging now are two different animals. I remember hunting when road access was wide open. You mention vandalism. I used to think this was caused by the average guy and sometimes it was. But it was pointed out to me that it was also caused by guys in the industry who either had an axe to grind with the company or guys who didn't want to go to work.

As for cleaning up the logging mess. This used to happen along with extensive replanting operations. Companies were not allowed to log within a certain distance from a stream , river or waterbody. Those days are gone. They not only log down to streams, they also drive right through some. I have seen this very thing. Lower island streams and rivers that used to be fish bearing are now dead. Pathetic.

As for garbage, the more people within reason in the bush the more this can be addressed. lots of good people who will report these activities. So why are the logging or land management companies not employing adequete security personnel? I already know the answer to this one. They will respond its the cost which is BS. They are just being frugal and passing the savings on to their share holders or putting up gates.

Don't get me wrong, I think the forest industry bring value to the economy, but they need heavy regulation. It has been very recently pointed out by the Government that the forest industry is unsustainable in it's present form, and I would agree. In general they need to be more responsible in their logging practices, and replanting. They need to bring a lot more value to the fiber they harvest, instead of the cut and run stuff they do now. And they need to ensure that wildlife has a place to live and be sustainable. presently all they care about is fiber recovery. Why do you think the salmon stocks are in such decline? They have very few places to return to to spawn because of poor logging practices. And at the end of the day if this doesn't change there will be no forest industry or logging jobs

[Treed]

VLD43 most of what you say is flat out wrong. The restrictions on streams depends on how they are classified and is more restrictive than 40 years ago. All block are replanted, the companies have a legal and financial obligation to successfully get the blocks to free-to-grow. They want to do that as they remain ‘on the books’ until they meet the ftg obligation. They don’t have ‘security personnel’ because they don’t own the land or the roads. That’s why you can hunt in crown lands that forest licensees have the rights to harvest on. If you want to see security guards, go try to hunt on Mosaics private lands. Good luck with that. The forest companies meet their legal obligations as set by the government that tell them how much to harvest annually and where they can harvest. I happen to think that our annual allowable cuts, access management decisions, and silvicultural management has been terrible for decades. But the forest companies do not set the rules! They simply follow what government tells them they have to. If the Foresty companies don’t harvest their allowable cut, they will lose the cut. Blame the government - they set the AAC to meet financial goals to do things that governments do - like keep the province running and get themselves re-elected. Maybe look a little deeper before making statements that are based on misguided opinion.

[TheObserver]

well then if you hunt the coast . Dont travel on one logging road to get to where you want to go. Let me know how full your freezer is at the end a the season. Then will have the same conversation...

k ,

[high horse Hal]

The unique part about BC forests is we can grow saw logs on 60-100 year rotations. Not many places in the world that can claim that. While these forests are ‘managed’ they are by no means tree farming like in the US or New Zealand and are very much wildlife habitat. Forests will trend again to multi story canopy structures characteristic of ‘old growth’ habitat as we approach the third cutting rotation.

The greatest threats to BC’s forests are the general public yahoos and the lack of investment from government into diverse silvicultural practices/treatments.sounds like a pieinthesky dream. most of BC cutblocks won't produce a pulp log in 80 yrs. Recent logging in steep slope areas may never see proper regen planting take hold, th landscape is changed forever, the biodiversity is gone

another mill town is in crisis this past week, another closure, the moonscape shown in vid clips is cherry-picked for sure, but is a good indicator of the lack of wood availble

[wideopenthrottle]

could you remind what is required to get free to grow status...I have forgotten the numbers...I sort of remember it as a certain number of stems per hectare with an average diameter of 10? cm at breast hight..can't recall if thinning and spacing is always required to get to FTG...or is it only for forests classed as overstocked ?

[high horse Hal]

there is no single stocking standard

some easy reading to wade through o)
https://www2.gov.bc.ca/gov/content/industry/forestry/managing-our-forest-resources/silviculture/stocking-standards

[Hadda]

End of the line. It was good while it lasted. We're paying the price for the profits of yesteryear. The system is set up to treat timber land like a farm, not a healthy ecosystem for all to have in the future.

[VLD43]

VLD43 most of what you say is flat out wrong. The restrictions on streams depends on how they are classified and is more restrictive than 40 years ago. All block are replanted, the companies have a legal and financial obligation to successfully get the blocks to free-to-grow. They want to do that as they remain ‘on the books’ until they meet the ftg obligation. They don’t have ‘security personnel’ because they don’t own the land or the roads. That’s why you can hunt in crown lands that forest licensees have the rights to harvest on. If you want to see security guards, go try to hunt on Mosaics private lands. Good luck with that. The forest companies meet their legal obligations as set by the government that tell them how much to harvest annually and where they can harvest. I happen to think that our annual allowable cuts, access management decisions, and silvicultural management has been terrible for decades. But the forest companies do not set the rules! They simply follow what government tells them they have to. If the Foresty companies don’t harvest their allowable cut, they will lose the cut. Blame the government - they set the AAC to meet financial goals to do things that governments do - like keep the province running and get themselves re-elected. Maybe look a little deeper before making statements that are based on misguided opinion.

Don't mention "flat out wrong" and Mosaic in the same breath please. I live on the island and have seen and heard from many on this issue. I also remember how it used to be. A lot of what you say is true if there is a TFL involved, but most all of what you are saying goes out the window on private land. especially when exemptions to the forest practices act are granted to privately owned land.

[TyTy]

One practice we have been employing is to mark the large veteran trees to stay standing - no obligation to do this. This keeps the genetics onsite, helps re-forest after cut (especially in burn or rocky ground), actually mimics fire disturbance and retains some canopy structure.

its not all doom and gloom

[TyTy]

sounds like a pieinthesky dream. most of BC cutblocks won't produce a pulp log in 80 yrs. Recent logging in steep slope areas may never see proper regen planting take hold, th landscape is changed forever, the biodiversity is gone

another mill town is in crisis this past week, another closure, the moonscape shown in vid clips is cherry-picked for sure, but is a good indicator of the lack of wood availble


i disagree from what i see first hand.

just this week, measured a stand that had cedar and fir 1m DBH, 40m tall….. <70years old…. Think of all the hectares of Third growth growing right now. The only constant is a continually changing landscape.

[pro 111]

Logging 40 years ago and logging now are two different animals. I remember hunting when road access was wide open. You mention vandalism. I used to think this was caused by the average guy and sometimes it was. But it was pointed out to me that it was also caused by guys in the industry who either had an axe to grind with the company or guys who didn't want to go to work.

As for cleaning up the logging mess. This used to happen along with extensive replanting operations. Companies were not allowed to log within a certain distance from a stream , river or waterbody. Those days are gone. They not only log down to streams, they also drive right through some. I have seen this very thing. Lower island streams and rivers that used to be fish bearing are now dead. Pathetic.

As for garbage, the more people within reason in the bush the more this can be addressed. lots of good people who will report these activities. So why are the logging or land management companies not employing adequete security personnel? I already know the answer to this one. They will respond its the cost which is BS. They are just being frugal and passing the savings on to their share holders or putting up gates.

Don't get me wrong, I think the forest industry bring value to the economy, but they need heavy regulation. It has been very recently pointed out by the Government that the forest industry is unsustainable in it's present form, and I would agree. In general they need to be more responsible in their logging practices, and replanting. They need to bring a lot more value to the fiber they harvest, instead of the cut and run stuff they do now. And they need to ensure that wildlife has a place to live and be sustainable. presently all they care about is fiber recovery. Why do you think the salmon stocks are in such decline? They have very few places to return to to spawn because of poor logging practices. And at the end of the day if this doesn't change there will be no forest industry or logging jobs
Its guys like you that preach bullshit that gives loggers a bad name.. were not aloud near any streams with fish in them . very strict rules here on Haida Gwaii. Our rivers here are plugged with Salmon. Theres more salmon swimming buy here these days then there was 30 years ago. Mainly due to the fact of reduced commercial catch. Also up here were not overpopulated with guys swarming rivers catching fish and letting them go pretending there not killing any. LOL.
Last year we had the best return a sockeye sinse 1983. The waters are actually very healthy in most parts a BC. Definitly theres bin overharvesting but the interesting thing is up here anyway we relog after 45 years. I am logging timber here that i hunted deer in the slash when I was a kid.
Logging is like farming . We all need it even if we want to pretend we dont. Anyone who hunts on the coast can thank a logger for the access it gave them. and the nice house you live in. If you dont like logging fair enough but get informed properly before you go spouting bullshit on social media.

As for the governmemt pointing out that the forest industry is not sustainable , what a joke. The same government is telling you to kill the moose to save a caribou.. There also saying your hunting rifle is gonna be taken away soon . and that Grizzly bears are endangered so we cant hunt them.
Dont be so quick to listen to the government , they are busy here driving our economy as well as our rights as hunters into the outhouse.

[IronNoggin]

Its guys like you that preach bullshit that gives loggers a bad name.. were not aloud near any streams with fish in them . very strict rules here on Haida Gwaii.

The waters are actually very healthy in most parts a BC.

Perhaps that is real where you are now, but it certainly is NOT in "most parts of BC" by any stretch of the imagination!

I can show you where they logged right to the shore of the Nahmint Lake & River (salmon, steelhead & trout bearing waters) with zero consequences.

I can also show you the massive clear-cuts (not replanted) over most of Vancouver Island.

Logging practices have destroyed a great many fisheries in BC and continue to do so.
The same can be said for ungulate over-wintering habitat (now severely impacted on this Island).
Your claims of the opposite are not factual whatsoever.

Nog

[Retiredguy]

Unfortunately Nog is right. I have seen the same things. There are the "best practices" that they are suppose to adhere to, and then there is the real world. Certainly there are some companies that follow the rules and then there are the ones that do not. Much has to do with the lack of follow-up by the Ministry, which gets poorer the further you go from the regional offices. This is the same issue with oil and gas. I have seen it first hand. In reality it is a problem with all resource extraction industries. Some companies are straight shooters, others do what they can get away with.

[Legacy Solocam]

Lots of generalizations being made. If harvesting operations are conducted on crown land then government laws and regulations must be followed. Here is a link to forest planning and practices regulation which gives broad requirements. These are further refined in forest stewardship plans of major forest licensees.

for operations around streams, lakes and wetlands refer to the riparian section starting at section 47. This gives reserve widths and management zone widths.
https://www.bclaws.gov.bc.ca/civix/document/id/complete/statreg/14_2004#section47
if you feel these aren’t being met contact the local forest service to bring your concerns forward.

reforestation obligations are also discussed and must be achieved within the timelines identified.

operations on private land do not need to follow these and could be what is discussed, especially on the island.

[Downtown]

Every cutblock is assessed for waste. The survey is very thorough and overkill in my opinion. Any merchantable wood left on site is paid for by the licensee. The licensee also has their cut reduced by the same amount, so they get hit twice for waste. The slash piles are also assessed as part of this, so it's a bad idea to put logs in the slash piles. These assessments must be done prior to slash burning as well. I work for a forest company and manage the reforestation program. There are many factors that play into how much wood is left on the blocks.
1. Often the logs left are already down prior to logging and would be considered "dead useless" or "dead potential" from the timber cruise. The threshold for this is 50% sound volume. Often it's not worth it to even pick up the dead downed logs.
2. Certain areas have targets for course woody debris (CWD). In this case logs are often left on purpose for habitat for small critters and nutrient cycling.
3. Sometimes logs are left to create plantable spots to protect the trees that are planted to regenerate the block. The microsites increase moisture and shade, and protect the seedlings from heat and snowpress. This sometimes makes the block very difficult to walk through for people and animals. This can be on purpose to deter animals from browsing and trampling the new seedlings. I deal with this often from range cattle, and wish there was more slash left on some blocks.
4. Sometimes wood left in a nice pile on the landing is because there is not enough for a load and it is cheaper to pay for the waste, then pay to haul it. Yes this looks bad, but it's simple economics.

I agree there are some cases that are inexcusable, but the licensee is not getting off without paying for it. There is a legal process in place to address this.

Typically the problems are more of a lack of understanding by the general public and they think it's bad without really knowing how things work.

Also, to the comment about gates on the island, I believe that is mostly private. Not much you can do there. It's like someone coming into your fenced backyard and saying it is a messy junk hole. Might be true, but it's your property and you can do what you like with it.

Thank you for taking the time explaining how things are supposed to work. Frankly I think there are enough "Idle Hands DOGODDERS" out there already, no need for the hunting Community especially on VI to pi*&ss of Mosaic.

Cheers

[VLD43]

Its guys like you that preach bullshit that gives loggers a bad name.. were not aloud near any streams with fish in them . very strict rules here on Haida Gwaii. Our rivers here are plugged with Salmon. Theres more salmon swimming buy here these days then there was 30 years ago. Mainly due to the fact of reduced commercial catch. Also up here were not overpopulated with guys swarming rivers catching fish and letting them go pretending there not killing any. LOL.
Last year we had the best return a sockeye sinse 1983. The waters are actually very healthy in most parts a BC. Definitly theres bin overharvesting but the interesting thing is up here anyway we relog after 45 years. I am logging timber here that i hunted deer in the slash when I was a kid.
Logging is like farming . We all need it even if we want to pretend we dont. Anyone who hunts on the coast can thank a logger for the access it gave them. and the nice house you live in. If you dont like logging fair enough but get informed properly before you go spouting bullshit on social media.

As for the governmemt pointing out that the forest industry is not sustainable , what a joke. The same government is telling you to kill the moose to save a caribou.. There also saying your hunting rifle is gonna be taken away soon . and that Grizzly bears are endangered so we cant hunt them.
Dont be so quick to listen to the government , they are busy here driving our economy as well as our rights as hunters into the outhouse.

Pro 111
Your experience in Haida Gwaii is far different from Vancouver Island. And before you go on a rant, let me be clear, I am not talking about TFL's that are run by the Government or subject to Government regulation. I am talking about a large area on Vancouver Island that is all private land and subject to a lot less regulation and rules. Myself and many others have seen the contrast from when the island was all TFL's to what it is now with private land ownership. As Nog has pointed out or validated with his comments above, there has been a lot of damage done here by some of the logging/land management business. So before you tell me I am full of it, get your facts straight. I am very aware how important responsible logging is and how it contributes to the economy. What I am against is cut and run crowd, who are more interested in their share holders dividends than minimizing the impact of their operations on the surrounding forest and streams.

[Citori54]

Pro 111
Your experience in Haida Gwaii is far different from Vancouver Island. And before you go on a rant, let me be clear, I am not talking about TFL's that are run by the Government or subject to Government regulation. I am talking about a large area on Vancouver Island that is all private land and subject to a lot less regulation and rules. Myself and many others have seen the contrast from when the island was all TFL's to what it is now with private land ownership. As Nog has pointed out or validated with his comments above, there has been a lot of damage done here by some of the logging/land management business. So before you tell me I am full of it, get your facts straight. I am very aware how important responsible logging is and how it contributes to the economy. What I am against is cut and run crowd, who are more interested in their share holders dividends than minimizing the impact of their operations on the surrounding forest and streams.

You need to get your facts straight. The island was never all TFL's. The E&N lands were granted over 120 years ago, originally to Canadian Pacific. Some of those lands were added to TFL's in the 1950's but those private lands remained private. There was no stumpage charged on wood harvested from those lands, but they were managed under the requirements of the TFL Management Plan. Many thousands of hectares of private lands were never included in TFL's. I know this because I worked on public land within the TFL and on private lands within and outside TFL 46 and TFL 47. In the late 1990's the NDP government allowed TimberWest to remove their private lands from within TFL 46 and TFL 47 in exchange for parcels of land the government wanted for parks and protected areas. Later the Liberal government allowed Island Timberlands to do the same with their private land, much of it around Port Alberni. This continual refrain that forest lands on the island were privatized in the last 25 years is just factually incorrect. What happened was simple: the government did not give or sell public land to the companies, rather private lands previously owned by the companies were removed from government control.

[IronNoggin]

You need to get your facts straight.

NONE of that excuses the horrendous practices they have both historically and currently engage in.

Period.

[Citori54]

NONE of that excuses the horrendous practices they have both historically and currently engage in.

Period.

I was not commenting on logging practices, I was correcting some of VKD43 misinformation.

[VLD43]

You need to get your facts straight. The island was never all TFL's. The E&N lands were granted over 120 years ago, originally to Canadian Pacific. Some of those lands were added to TFL's in the 1950's but those private lands remained private. There was no stumpage charged on wood harvested from those lands, but they were managed under the requirements of the TFL Management Plan. Many thousands of hectares of private lands were never included in TFL's. I know this because I worked on public land within the TFL and on private lands within and outside TFL 46 and TFL 47. In the late 1990's the NDP government allowed TimberWest to remove their private lands from within TFL 46 and TFL 47 in exchange for parcels of land the government wanted for parks and protected areas. Later the Liberal government allowed Island Timberlands to do the same with their private land, much of it around Port Alberni. This continual refrain that forest lands on the island were privatized in the last 25 years is just factually incorrect. What happened was simple: the government did not give or sell public land to the companies, rather private lands previously owned by the companies were removed from government control.

I never said all lands on the island were TFL's. What I do know is that I hunted the Island for many years and had unfettered access to most all of the island. Outfits like Mac Blo, Bc Forest products and many others did lots of tree planting and did not lock gates or log down to streams. You used to see many signs out in the bush advertizing how many trees had been replanted in a logged area. Don't see any of those now. The logging companies also used to have free camp sites along with free firewood. Now you just see advertizing at the real estate offices offering logged off foresty land and lots of gates. The only outfit I remember that gave hunters a hard time back then was Crown Zellerbac. Needless to say, things have changed, and not for the better. I believe it was you a few years ago, who on this site mentioned that Timberwest or island Timberlands had applied and been granted the permission to with draw from the forest practices code because of private ownership. You also mentioned this also made it possible for these private land owners to pay lower stumpage rates. Remember those comments, because I sure do. I am not trying to bad mouth the forest industry by an stretch, but I am old enough to remember how it used to be, vs now. So why so many gates? And don't give me the old BS line "Because of dumping and Vandalizism" It doesn't wash. never needed it before? A lot of the forests on the Island are now tree farms and not forests. Game populations are way down, and fish returning to streams on the south Island have been devastated. I have talked with many people who have lived near these areas for years and remember how it used to be. Local streams that used to hold good populations of fish are now stripped down to the banks and the water is so warm nothing could live in it. I know you have a bias and are going to come the defense of your previous employer, and so be it. I have no want to bad mouth the forest industry and understand it's value to the local economy. But when you look at how lower Island is presently being managed, its very apparent there is little will for a long term vision and wildlife isnt even on the radar. Do you remember when logging companies had camps, and trucks and lots of full time employees and lots of mills. Now everything is contracted out. No long term vision and very little infrastructure. That in itself is both concerning and an indication of the temporary nature of the industry on the island. Hope my facts are straight, even if they don't fit the narrative. I am past my hunting years on the Island, but still care about a health forest. A tree farm isn't a healthy forest.

[Citori54]

Pro 111
Myself and many others have seen the contrast from when the island was all TFL's to what it is now with private land ownership. As Nog has pointed out or validated with his comments above, there has been a lot of damage done here by some of the logging/land management business. So before you tell me I am full of it, get your facts straight. I am very aware how important responsible logging is and how it contributes to the economy. What I am against is cut and run crowd, who are more interested in their share holders dividends than minimizing the impact of their operations on the surrounding forest and streams.

Actually you did say all the island was TFL's as per your quote above.

[Darksith]

Every cutblock is assessed for waste. The survey is very thorough and overkill in my opinion. Any merchantable wood left on site is paid for by the licensee. The licensee also has their cut reduced by the same amount, so they get hit twice for waste. The slash piles are also assessed as part of this, so it's a bad idea to put logs in the slash piles. These assessments must be done prior to slash burning as well. I work for a forest company and manage the reforestation program. There are many factors that play into how much wood is left on the blocks.
1. Often the logs left are already down prior to logging and would be considered "dead useless" or "dead potential" from the timber cruise. The threshold for this is 50% sound volume. Often it's not worth it to even pick up the dead downed logs.
2. Certain areas have targets for course woody debris (CWD). In this case logs are often left on purpose for habitat for small critters and nutrient cycling.
3. Sometimes logs are left to create plantable spots to protect the trees that are planted to regenerate the block. The microsites increase moisture and shade, and protect the seedlings from heat and snowpress. This sometimes makes the block very difficult to walk through for people and animals. This can be on purpose to deter animals from browsing and trampling the new seedlings. I deal with this often from range cattle, and wish there was more slash left on some blocks.
4. Sometimes wood left in a nice pile on the landing is because there is not enough for a load and it is cheaper to pay for the waste, then pay to haul it. Yes this looks bad, but it's simple economics.

I agree there are some cases that are inexcusable, but the licensee is not getting off without paying for it. There is a legal process in place to address this.

Typically the problems are more of a lack of understanding by the general public and they think it's bad without really knowing how things work.

Also, to the comment about gates on the island, I believe that is mostly private. Not much you can do there. It's like someone coming into your fenced backyard and saying it is a messy junk hole. Might be true, but it's your property and you can do what you like with it.

back in the day we did thorough residue and waste surveying, then the government upped how much was allowed to be left behind and the thorough survey was abandoned.

Why are we calling left behind fibre waste or garbage anyway? The reason for merchantable lumber not being allowed to be left behind is so that the government gets its taxes out of ALL the wood. It gets accounted for in the stumpage and goes against the AAC. This is all industry concern.

Our concern has environmentalists/conservationists should be more focused on forest health than anything else. I would think that the more fibre left behind around the cut block the better for the health of the soil in the long run (fire excluded) no? I think slash piles and the burning of them is probably less about forest or ecosystem health and more about ease of future civil culture work that may or may not be required? There was a time when the thought process was to limb every tree where it was cut to put back that fibre and nutrients into the soil around the stump to repeat the natural deposits that would of kept occuring had that tree not been cut down. Ive been out of the industry for a long time now, but it seems since the pine beetle and salvage logging we have reverted to the old ways of skid and pile then limb and burn slash piles again...

[VLD43]

Actually you did say all the island was TFL's as per your quote above.
Fair enough, we all make mistakes, but the kruks of my comments are still valid. As I said before, i realize the value of the logging industry in this province, but am old enough to remember how it used to be when forest lands were managed responsibly on the Island. Now it is seems to be cut and run. The public is going to end up paying for this mess down the road. And the bill will be huge. All I see in my area is contract logging trucks from all over the place. No company owned infrastructure, no indication of a long term vision. Just log it and move on to the next investment. Return on investment seems to trump a healthy forest and environment. The value of our wild places used to have value. It seems that principal in now dead.

[IronNoggin]

... But when you look at how lower Island is presently being managed, its very apparent there is little will for a long term vision and wildlife isn't even on the radar.

I concur with everything you posted there.
It is an absolute mess.

Nog

[VLD43]

I concur with everything you posted there.
It is an absolute mess.

Nog

Thanks Nog. That means a lot coming from some one of your stature. I am always interested in your read of things. Your wisdom and common sense approach is refreshing. Hopefully we will get assess back again soon. Cheers