The Hybrid Pig

[krazy]

Spotted this guy with 6 does from about 1 km away. Antlers looked kinda different right off the bat so decided to try and get closer. Stalked to within 500 yards to take a better look. The 6 does were all mulies but he looked like a big mulie with whitetail antlers. From this point he looked huge, literally dwarfing the does, and his legs looked like short little sticks poking out from under his body. He was definatley the breeding buck in the area as he had his way with one of the does a couple times during the stalk. Finally decided to take a shot. Settled into a shooting position and ranged him at 440 yards. The 7wsm is about 10 inches low at 400 yards but made a descision not to hold over because this guy was at least 2 feet deep. Held about 4 inches below his spine and fired. He didn't know what hit him and he dropped in his tracks. Here he is:

http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/medium/110_1062-c.jpg (http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/showphoto.php?photo=7001&size=big&cat=500&perpage=18&sort=1&ppuser=2411)

http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/medium/110_1063-c.jpg (http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/showphoto.php?photo=7002&size=big&cat=500&perpage=18&sort=1&ppuser=2411)

http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/medium/110_1064-c.jpg (http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/showphoto.php?photo=7003&size=big&cat=500&ppuser=2411)

http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/medium/110_1086-c.jpg (http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/showphoto.php?photo=6999&size=big&cat=500&ppuser=2411)

So now it's decision time - mulie or whitey? What do you think?

[BCrams]

If its a muley tail ... cut the muley tag. Lets see pictures of the tail.

You can't go by antlers as antlers come in all shapes and sizes! Even mulies will have antlers that take on the form of a whitey shape. The eye guards are not there ... big ears, big body / colour of a muley .... probably a muley tail .... I hope you cancelled your muley tag!

[steepNdeep]

Nice buck! HYBRID... I'm getting some popcorn... this should be entertaining... :D

[ryanb]

No real brows, the ears, and the size...sure looks like a mulie to me. I'd love to see the tail.

[Steeleco]

Like BCrams said, lets see some rump. After not just a few pictures of freaky racks on deer, I've learned there's more to a Hybrid than just a miss matched head/rump. I do believe they exist, but not as common as I once thought!

BTW it's a little late to ask which tag to cut once you've posted the pictures!!!! LOL

[Leaseman]

I agree, with those pics, sure looks like a mulie....

[NEEHAMA]

that is cool, whitey rack for sure. mulie body for sure.

what offspring will he have?

NEATO!

[Farmer]

Mule deer ears and face. Whitetail type antlers but no brow tines. Show us some Bum! :biggrin:

[NEEHAMA]

Do you score him as a mulie rack or a whitey rack?

[greybark]

;) The tarsel glands should be the key ..
Nice buck regardless !!!!

[Fisher-Dude]

I'd like an expert's opinion...where's Tinney? :biggrin:

Why would someone tag a muley on a whitey license? :wink:

[Woodrow]

thats a real nice buck, good shootin 400 plus yards!

[Mr. Dean]

Like BCrams said, lets see some rump.

Perv's.... :roll:


I think I commented last week in the gallery - Let's see some TAIL!

Yup, I'm a perv too. ;)


From what I see, I'd cut the Muley tag.

[Wildman]

Mulie........As far as I understand, hybrids cannot produce offspring. Whether that means they don't attempt, I don't know. Oh by the way, I've seen Blacktails with Whitetail style antlers, they always seem to be three points too.

[pupper]

let see the tail, as it stands I vote whitey. main beams with straight tines

[MattB]

Definetely a muley, just because it has a whitey like antler configuration doesnt mean it has any whitetail in its genes...

[Browningmirage]

Mulie........As far as I understand, hybrids cannot produce offspring. Whether that means they don't attempt, I don't know. Oh by the way, I've seen Blacktails with Whitetail style antlers, they always seem to be three points too.


It all depends on how things work out. I am pretty sure that they are such similar animals that viable offspring could result, but it all depends on how the genetics work out.

As for lessons we all should have learned by now

Tag for the body. Not the antlers. We have all seen screwed up antlers (what about the ones with palmation like Massntrash somewhat had, are we supposed to tag out the moose tag then?)

Tag the body. Thats what the COs are going to be looking for

[pupper]

Definetely a muley, just because it has a whitey like antler configuration doesnt mean it has any whitetail in its genes...


then why do they call deer with those antler configurations whitetails?

[Wildfoot]

then why do they call deer with those antler configurations whitetails?

you dont id a deer from antlers alone. And like people said no brow tines. My vote is mulie.

[Wildman]

Tag for the body. Not the antlers. We have all seen screwed up antlers (what about the ones with palmation like Massntrash somewhat had, are we supposed to tag out the moose tag then?)

Fallow deer........but again, that's a Mulie tag.

[krazy]

It all depends on how things work out. I am pretty sure that they are such similar animals that viable offspring could result, but it all depends on how the genetics work out.

As for lessons we all should have learned by now

Tag for the body. Not the antlers. We have all seen screwed up antlers (what about the ones with palmation like Massntrash somewhat had, are we supposed to tag out the moose tag then?)

Tag the body. Thats what the COs are going to be looking for


I was waiting for a comment like this because ultimatley it is all that really matters. browningmirage, is this just your opinion or is it based on facts? Where does this information come from?

[Sharkey]

Was he legal either way? Hard to say what he is - I agree he may be a hybrid. Kind of like a neutered dog - he doesn't know he can't produce but he does it anyways...
~D

[Fisher-Dude]

In one of my recent chats with the CO, he said one of the more common offences results from people who are unable to tell a muley from a whitey. For those who say this is a whitey, may I suggest you spend the winter taking your CORE course again? ;)

[Sitkaspruce]

Krazy

I hope you cut the "mulie" tag before you asked us this question. Are you not supposed to tag it before you do anything else.....

Mulie for sure and a nice one to boot. Good shot and enjoy all the lovely edible stinky mulie meat:biggrin:. A good sausage buck for sure.

SS

[BCrams]

So - what did you tag it under? Muley or whitey?

[krazy]

Was he legal either way? Hard to say what he is - I agree he may be a hybrid. Kind of like a neutered dog - he doesn't know he can't produce but he does it anyways...
~D

100% legal or the shot would not have been taken.

[krazy]

Krazy

I hope you cut the "mulie" tag before you asked us this question. Are you not supposed to tag it before you do anything else.....

Mulie for sure and a nice one to boot. Good shot and enjoy all the lovely edible stinky mulie meat:biggrin:. A good sausage buck for sure.

SS

this deer was killed and legally tagged weeks ago. just thought it would make for an interesting debate.

by the way, ate some the other day and was VERY surprised to find that it was the one of the best tasting deer that i've ever had!

[hunter1947]

No mistaken that it is a mulie ,with a set of whitetail antlers on its head ,hybrid for sure. If a person didn't now what he was looking for you could shoot the wrong animal.

[krazy]

In one of my recent chats with the CO, he said one of the more common offences results from people who are unable to tell a muley from a whitey. For those who say this is a whitey, may I suggest you spend the winter taking your CORE course again? ;)

so what did he say is the propper method of identification?

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Great buck!

Pupper- Let's all pretend it's a doe and doesn't have antlers.......what do you call it then??:roll:

SSS

[krazy]

thats a real nice buck, good shootin 400 plus yards!


thanks woodrow!

[hunter1947]

so what did he say is the propper method of identification?
I would say the tail and the big ears as for the face and colour.

[BCrams]

Great buck!

Pupper- Let's all pretend it's a doe and doesn't have antlers.......what do you call it then??:roll:

SSS

I know I know I know ........ its a whitetail right :biggrin:

[krazy]

Mulie........As far as I understand, hybrids cannot produce offspring. Whether that means they don't attempt, I don't know. Oh by the way, I've seen Blacktails with Whitetail style antlers, they always seem to be three points too.

he was definatley 'attempting'!

[hunter1947]

The lower antlers are of a mulie as well the upper a whitetail ,if a whitetail it should of had long gards ,this one has none ,the antlers are hybrid as well.

[krazy]

Definetely a muley, just because it has a whitey like antler configuration doesnt mean it has any whitetail in its genes...

doesn't mean that it doesn't either.......

[hunter1947]

Very nice deer for sure congrats ,if i had one tag of each and the area was open up for ether ,i would drop it soon as i seen 4 on the one side without identifying the rest of the animal.

[tufferthandug]

Here's a question for all you Muley professionals:

Would the first points on each side be counted as G-1's, or would they be counted abnormal?

On this buck would the G-1 score be omitted and the first points counted as G-2's, and the next counted as G-4's?

By the way, cool buck Krazy!

[Fisher-Dude]

so what did he say is the propper method of identification?

The proper method is to tag it under the correct species. That's a mule deer. The antlers have no bearing on species identification in this case.


The lower antlers are of a mulie as well the upper a whitetail ,if a whitetail it should of had long gards ,this one has none ,the antlers are hybrid as well.

Hybrid antlers? I've never heard of that before. :eek:

[BCrams]

No one is questioning whether you cancelled your tag or not.

But since its an interesting debate, what tag did you cancel?

hunter - never heard of hybrid antlers either. Weird, deformed, typical, non-typical taking on various shapes including whitey shapes.

[krazy]

The proper method is to tag it under the correct species. That's a mule deer. The antlers have no bearing on species identification in this case.

lol - so to be clear, are you saying that the CO told you that antlers have no bearing on species identification in the case of whitetail vs mule deer?

[MattB]

Why would antlers have much to do with what it is? I realize that mule deer and whitetails each have their own respective configuration that is typical to each species, but there is a lot that can happen during horn growth that can change that...

[hunter1947]

The proper method is to tag it under the correct species. That's a mule deer. The antlers have no bearing on species identification in this case.



Hybrid antlers? I've never heard of that before. :eek:
Fisher take a look at the base of this deer.

[Bow Walker]

Quick! Someone e-mail this to Tinney! :roll:

[Wildman]

Spotted this guy with 6 does from about 1 km away. Antlers looked kinda different right off the bat so decided to try and get closer. Stalked to within 500 yards to take a better look. The 6 does were all mulies but he looked like a big mulie with whitetail antlers. From this point he looked huge, literally dwarfing the does, and his legs looked like short little sticks poking out from under his body. He was definatley the breeding buck in the area as he had his way with one of the does a couple times during the stalk. Finally figured that he must be a hybrid and decided to take a shot. Settled into a shooting position and ranged him at 440 yards. The 7wsm is about 10 inches low at 400 yards but made a descision not to hold over because this guy was at least 2 feet deep. Held about 4 inches below his spine and fired. He didn't know what hit him and he dropped in his tracks. Here he is:

http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/medium/110_1062-c.jpg (http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/showphoto.php?photo=7001&size=big&cat=500&perpage=18&sort=1&ppuser=2411)

http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/medium/110_1063-c.jpg (http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/showphoto.php?photo=7002&size=big&cat=500&perpage=18&sort=1&ppuser=2411)

http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/medium/110_1064-c.jpg (http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/showphoto.php?photo=7003&size=big&cat=500&ppuser=2411)

http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/medium/110_1086-c.jpg (http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/showphoto.php?photo=6999&size=big&cat=500&ppuser=2411)

So now it's decision time - mulie or whitey? What do you think?

Nice buck by the way!

[bruin]

I found some really interesting information on hybrids, they even include several pictures as examples. I think this should answer alot of you guys' questions about this deer. But please guys, keep an open mind when you go through this.
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.worth1000.com/entries/81500/81798wDFb_w.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.worth1000.com/cache/gallery/contestcache.asp%3Fcontest_id%3D2523%26display%3Dp hotoshop&h=625&w=500&sz=36&hl=en&start=3&um=1&tbnid=a7QshixPi4zh8M:&tbnh=136&tbnw=109&prev=

[Fisher-Dude]

lol - so to be clear, are you saying that the CO told you that antlers have no bearing on species identification in the case of whitetail vs mule deer?

The CO told me that some people struggle with species ID. In a case like this, the deer is clearly a mule deer, and would have to be tagged as such. Antler configuration is the least reliable method of species ID. Eyes, nose, ears, tail, inner legs, tarsals, belly colouration, and forehead colouration and shape, have much more to do with species ID than antlers.

[K.A]

Nice deer,Mulie for sure, here is a blacktail same config except with stickers (guards).

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a230/karbeau/P1010199.jpg?t=1196803423
http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a230/karbeau/P1010198.jpg?t=1196803467

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a230/karbeau/P1010190.jpg?t=1196803491

[bruin]

K.A., where was that buck taken?? Just found the post, Island BT. Must be whity's on that island.
http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=17025

[300WM]

lol - so to be clear, are you saying that the CO told you that antlers have no bearing on species identification in the case of whitetail vs mule deer?

Why would they? How else would you ID a spike buck or a doe? Not by the antlers.

BTW....very nice deer Krazy!

[krazy]

Why would they? How else would you ID a spike buck or a doe? Not by the antlers.

BTW....very nice deer Krazy!

good point ....... and thank you.

[KevinB]

Definitely a nice buck, and a great shot! But I don't see anything that would make me even begin to think whitetail...I'd say it has an unusual antler configuration but antlers come in all kinds of shapes. There is nothing about the body shape, coloration, etc. that looks even remotely like a whitetail, or a "hybrid" at least to me, from those pictures. Can't see the tail/rump or metatarsals very well.

Fisher-Dude hi the nail on the head IMHO. If you think this deer's tag should be cut as a whitetail (at least from what the pictures show) you might want to think about brushing up on your deer species ID....

Interesting reading:

http://www.deertracking.com/library/dec2001_tails_dark_side.html

[pupper]

Great buck!

Pupper- Let's all pretend it's a doe and doesn't have antlers.......what do you call it then??:roll:

SSS

Id go by the tail and ears.

[K.A]

K.A., where was that buck taken??


On an Island that is not named Vancouver :lol:.

[krazy]

The CO told me that some people struggle with species ID. In a case like this, the deer is clearly a mule deer, and would have to be tagged as such. Antler configuration is the least reliable method of species ID. Eyes, nose, ears, tail, inner legs, tarsals, belly colouration, and forehead colouration and shape, have much more to do with species ID than antlers.

Fisher-dude, I'm really not trying to be PITA but I would really like to know what the CO said and what is just your opinion. You say that the CO said "that some people struggle with species ID". That's a fair statement. But did the CO actually say "Antler configuration is the least reliable method of species ID. Eyes, nose, ears, tail, inner legs, tarsals, belly colouration, and forehead colouration and shape, have much more to do with species ID than antlers" or is this your opinion?

[krazy]

Definitely a nice buck, and a great shot! But I don't see anything that would make me even begin to think whitetail...I'd say it has an unusual antler configuration but antlers come in all kinds of shapes. There is nothing about the body shape, coloration, etc. that looks even remotely like a whitetail, or a "hybrid" at least to me, from those pictures. Can't see the tail/rump or metatarsals very well.

Fisher-Dude hi the nail on the head IMHO. If you think this deer's tag should be cut as a whitetail (at least from what the pictures show) you might want to think about brushing up on your deer species ID....

Interesting reading:

http://www.deertracking.com/library/dec2001_tails_dark_side.html

kevin, great link - thanks.

[Fisher-Dude]

It's not my opinion, it's what is taught in CORE. The CO didn't say the antlers have nothing to do with species, CORE does. If this is what you are looking for to justify the tag you punched, I'd suggest that you show your tag and these pics to the CO and get the definitive answer you're looking for. If you punched your whitey tag, it's gonna cost ya. ;)

[Fisher-Dude]

He can't post, but he's here in spirit!


View Profile: Tinney

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Viewing Thread The Hybrid Pig (http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=17370) @ 02:07 PM

[GabeWalker]

Thats a mule deer if I have ever seen one..Krazy going by how you and pupper think If I happened to Glue some Antlers to my head and walk on all 4's would you shoot me and tag me as a white tail or Hybrid Samsquatch??

[GabeWalker]

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y200/Alpine85/DSC00136.jpg

Moose or ATV??what your guess'ss on that one folks:biggrin:

[Sideofabarn]

Gabewalker, You know you're not supposed to shoot the MoE's new "Fauxmoose". Man, you're really gonna get it now. What's the RAPP number again? :biggrin:
Ahh, who's suffering exam madness?

[Fisher-Dude]

Muley or muley-crazed hunter?

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e70/Fisher-Dude/HybridSpike.jpg

[Farmer]

After reading through some of the comments, 300WM and Stone Sheep Steve identified the situation. If it is antlerless or a spike or shot in a non 4 point season, antlers are not required to be kept so they must not be important for Species ID purposes.

[BlacktailStalker]

Nice buck and good shot!

All shit aside, what tag did you use? If he isnt tagged he's an illegally harvested animal so spill the beans already.

[Browningmirage]

My god this is getting ridiculous

I dont ID a person by their hair, it is too variable, sure it is a helpful characteristic, but it is by no means diagnostic. Similarly, deer antlers are highly variable, and yes they are helpful for ID purposes sometimes, but useless if you are going to argue that you shot a whitetail even though it is a mulie.

As for COs, yes they have said tag by the body (talk to any one of them, i have). Its like with fish, for springs, i have caught moderate size springs with blank tails, but there are many things that happen during the course of an animals life that can cause issues with these features. So for springs, i was told to look for the mouth, for deer the body. There you go

[MIL720]

I say mulie.....What a hog!congrats

[krazy]

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y200/Alpine85/DSC00136.jpg

Moose or ATV??what your guess'ss on that one folks:biggrin:


LOL - funny!

[Gateholio]

The pics are all careful to not reveal a tail. Me thinks that someone is maybe yanking a chain or 2.:biggrin:

[krazy]

Nice buck and good shot!

All shit aside, what tag did you use? If he isnt tagged he's an illegally harvested animal so spill the beans already.


see post #27

[NEEHAMA]

so did the deer have the mulie tail or the whitey's tail?
i still haven't heard?

[Orangethunder]

Great buck, congrats big time. You got a beauty there!! Very interesting debate too. I say mulie for what its worth.



Oh and definetly another Clearwater buck:shock:!

[krazy]

"But since its an interesting debate, what tag did you cancel?"

The suspense is killing him :grin:



The pics are all careful to not reveal a tail. Me thinks that someone is maybe yanking a chain or 2.:biggrin:


ok speaking of tail, ( it's always about the tail isn't it :) )if the tail was that of a whitetail would that change your opinions? According to some, "eyes, nose, ears, tail, inner legs, tarsals, belly colouration, and forehead colouration and shape" all have to be taken into consideration. Just a whitetail tail is only 1 out of all those 9 listed body parts. So antlers aside, could you call this a whitetail even if it had a whitetail tail?

[krazy]

Great buck, congrats big time. You got a beauty there!! Very interesting debate too. I say mulie for what its worth.



Oh and definetly another Clearwater buck:shock:!


aahhhh ..... ya ...... clearwater for sure.

[hunter1947]

Just to settle it for me ,if he had more features of a mule deer ,i would say it is a mule deer and if it had more features as a whitetail i would say a whitetail. But what i see in the pic without the tail ,i would say a mule deer for sure. You know i think someone is trying to put one over on us ????. They scammed a pic to fool us??? :shock:.

[dana]

Great looking muley there. You must have killed it in Merrit or McBride. :)

Tuffer,
From a B&C scoring perspective, that buck gets 0 for the G1's. The first tine off the mains is the G2. It then gets 0 for the G3's. The next point up would be Abnormal (inline) and scored as NT. The next point is the G4.

[whitetailsheds]

Ultimately, the height of the tarsal glands would have to be examined to determine species. There are different locations (read "height") of these glands on each of the three deer in question (Wt, Mulie, Hybrid). IMO, mulie with wt looking antlers.

[horshur]

Years ago in the koots seen a big mulie like that and also very wide in alpine with about 5 other bucks that just made you sick up in the rocks with the goats.
Also awhile ago seen a big muley buck like that I was tagged out he was sniffing a mulie doe and grunting it was just light and the bugger blew out of there with a tail up. It were a whitetail! I was deceived and was sporting a tag for him to boot. Damn!!!!!!

[NEEHAMA]

Half the time i need to see the rump to pull the trigger. i'm a second guesser.

[kennyj]

Face color,ears,no brow tines,looks like a mulie to me. What did his tail look like?
By the way, Awesome Buck!

[Fisher-Dude]

Krazy's deer didn't have a whitetail tail, so it's a non-issue. Neither did this muley I took in the mid-80s with all the points coming off the main beam:

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e70/Fisher-Dude/widerack1.jpg

[BIGHUNTERFISH]

If thats a whitetail,then I wear womens panties and shoot a Remington 710.Thats a cool Mulie,the antler configuration doesnt mean squat,my old man shot a mulie that looked exactlly like a small moose''heavily palmated''.I can't belive there is so much talk about this,there are more important things like the Yeti they just found somewhere in Tibet.:eek:

[bruin]

What, they actually found a Yeti, are you sure Gatehouse wasn't on Vacation this week?

[BIGHUNTERFISH]

Krazy's deer didn't have a whitetail tail, so it's a non-issue. Neither did this muley I took in the mid-80s with all the points coming off the main beam:

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e70/Fisher-Dude/widerack1.jpg
Hey Fisher,Thats a real cool looking buck,he has a very sad look on his face though,probably from living with you all these years.lol. FD ,I dont know if I want to play tonight ,I am entertaining some dinner guests.Have a good one.8-)

[Fisher-Dude]

If thats a whitetail,then I wear womens panties and shoot a Remington 710.:eek:

So what makes you say it's a whitetail BHF? :rolleyes:

[BIGHUNTERFISH]

So what makes you say it's a whitetail BHF? :rolleyes:

Fisher,This is a warning I will not be made a fool of,on this hunting forum or any other internet web site.If this continues I will strike down on you with great vengenance and furious anger.:smile:

[Browningmirage]

"im going to ask you nicely one more time to drop it"
Overthetop~2007
lol

[358win]

This was great guys, but I'm all outta popcorn....

[Caveman]

Fisher,This is a warning I will not be made a fool of,on this hunting forum or any other internet web site.If this continues I will strike down on you with great vengenance and furious anger.:smile:

Hard to take you serious, with the thought of you in ladies panties :eek::eek:

[3kills]

why would u be thinkin of him in women panties??? thats wronger then him wearing them LOL

[Will]

If this continues I will strike down on you with great vengenance and furious anger.
This would be dam scary if we did not know you typed it while wearing Women's Panties :smile:

[Will]

Just how many times can we say "women's panties" ???? :shock:

Oh and it's still an Awesome Muley ! :razz:

[blueboy]

nice buck and good shooten

[Mr. Dean]

Just how many times can we say "women's panties" ????



.............................. http://forums.naturalparenting.com.au/images/smilie/hide.gif

[brianscott]

Well by the looks of the animal all signs except the rack are tell-tale mulie,
the rack is interesting i do say, but like an earlier post stated dont judge people by their hair. I have seen more than one white afro in my time.

I am sure everyone would like a look at the butt of that deer, and i do agree that the pics seem to hide it from us.
I would also like to know what tag was cut, post 27 just states it was tagged, not what tag was filled.

I would tag as a mulie, and then have him mounted as a conversation piece because this is such a neat deer.

The other year my younger brother took a nice whitetail buck that had some mulie traits, not as prominent as the ones we are disussing but the shape of the rack seemed mulie and it looked like a 3 point mulie. The fronts were forked similar to a mulie with the the tall rear tines
also the brow tines were almost non existent
He didnt base his decision on the rack he checked the ears, tail , face, and the fact he was chasing whitetail does.

Any ways how many pages do you think this debate will go on for?

Mulie in my opinion, and a neat one at that!

[Mr. Dean]

Any ways how many pages do you think this debate will go on for?

This deer will long be eaten, before this thread die's

[BIGHUNTERFISH]

Nice Rack,and womens panties :wink:http://www.salsrackscalendar.com/howorder.jpg

[krazy]

Nice Rack,and womens panties :wink:http://www.salsrackscalendar.com/howorder.jpg



This is by far the best post of the thread! :biggrin:

[wsm]

to me. it would get tagged by the rump, which i dont get a good look at. i keep seeing brow tines brought up. saw a mulie this year 3x3, but at a glance thought 4 untill i looked closer. 3-4 inch brows on it. TAG BY THE RUMP IS WHAT I WAS TOLD BY SOMEONE I TRUST AND SOMEONE THAT WOULD KNOW. LETS SEE THE RUMP. NICE DEER ANYWAYS AND GREAT SHOT

[BCJunior]

What a hog, def looks like a big muley but yet the horns make it look like a whitey, but id definitly call him a muley more then a whitey

[Will]

Nice Rack,and womens panties
All I see are Horns........:shock:

Now I know I'm truly lost............:|

[BIGHUNTERFISH]

[quote=Will;216098]All I see are Horns........:shock:

Now I know I'm truly lost............:|

Is she typical where you come from,or non typical?:lol:

[Will]

Is she typical where you come from,or non typical?:lol:
Looks high maintenance........not typical for around here, my standards are much lower, so I'm gonna say Non Typical :lol:

[Shooter]

Interesting reading:

http://www.deertracking.com/library/dec2001_tails_dark_side.html

That is a great link. I have a magazine here at home that is pretty much the same read as that. Everytime I see a debate on here about the hybrid issue I always wish I could link to my magazine, but that artical says about the same thing. As I am mainly a Vancouver Island hunter I am glad I dont have to worry about the species ID on a regular basis. Great looking deer no matter what species it is.

[krazy]

OK since the debate is back on here is some more food for thought:

A while back FD posted that a CO he spoke with said that antlers have nothing to do with species identification. When I asked him to clarify if the CO actually said that or if it was just his opinion he said:


It's not my opinion, it's what is taught in CORE. The CO didn't say the antlers have nothing to do with species, CORE does.

So, I dug out my CORE book and read it. Nowhere in it could I find where it says that antlers have nothing to do with the species. The section in my book that speaks to species ID talks about many features INCLUDING antlers and in no way indcates that any one feature is more important than another. It talks about whitetail deers antler points growing up from the main beam and mule deer antlers in forked pairs. Notice that it does not even mention brow tines for the whitetail deer. Here is a scan from the page of my CORE book:

http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/medium/img020.jpg (http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/showphoto.php?photo=7134&size=big&cat=500&ppuser=2411)

Next I looked at the regs. The only place the regs talks about the differences between the two species is in the definitions section. And guess what, all they talk about there are antlers. They show a nice picture of a typical whitetail and of a typical mulie.

So the regs seem to use antlers to distinguish between the two, and CORE uses many features INCLUDING antlers AND does not specify that any one attribute is more important than another. According to these two sources it would seem that antler configuration would be as acceptable a method of determining species as any other attribute.

[puppychow]

Congrats. Nice buck!

[Browningmirage]

OK since the debate is back on here is some more food for thought:

A while back FD posted that a CO he spoke with said that antlers have nothing to do with species identification. When I asked him to clarify if the CO actually said that or if it was just his opinion he said:



So, I dug out my CORE book and read it. Nowhere in it could I find where it says that antlers have nothing to do with the species. The section in my book that speaks to species ID talks about many features INCLUDING antlers and in no way indcates that any one feature is more important than another. It talks about whitetail deers antler points growing up from the main beam and mule deer antlers in forked pairs. Notice that it does not even mention brow tines for the whitetail deer. Here is a scan from the page of my CORE book:

http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/medium/img020.jpg (http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/showphoto.php?photo=7134&size=big&cat=500&ppuser=2411)

Next I looked at the regs. The only place the regs talks about the differences between the two species is in the definitions section. And guess what, all they talk about there are antlers. They show a nice picture of a typical whitetail and of a typical mulie.

So the regs seem to use antlers to distinguish between the two, and CORE uses many features INCLUDING antlers AND does not specify that any one attribute is more important than another. According to these two sources it would seem that antler configuration would be as acceptable a method of determining species as any other attribute.

guess you missed the post where i said that i talked to the CO huh
He said to tag by the body, as the antlers are highly variable. You can call em to confirm if you want, they all get the same training.

[Freshtracks]

OK since the debate is back on here is some more food for thought:

A while back FD posted that a CO he spoke with said that antlers have nothing to do with species identification. When I asked him to clarify if the CO actually said that or if it was just his opinion he said:

Next I looked at the regs. The only place the regs talks about the differences between the two species is in the definitions section. And guess what, all they talk about there are antlers. They show a nice picture of a typical whitetail and of a typical mulie.

So the regs seem to use antlers to distinguish between the two, and CORE uses many features INCLUDING antlers AND does not specify that any one attribute is more important than another. According to these two sources it would seem that antler configuration would be as acceptable a method of determining species as any other attribute.

I've been waiting for this reply. Great looking buck krazy... great whietail rack and hog mulie body .... but seems everyone wants some tail. :p Funny how there's allot of posts stating they need the tail for an ID ... hope there wasn't a bunch of Texas Heart this pass season.:oops:

I believe the purpose of the pic was to discuss the validity of Hybrids. Good case here.

[Sharkey]

Nice Rack,and womens panties :wink:http://www.salsrackscalendar.com/howorder.jpg
HEY! That photo was for my husband ONLY!! :wink:

[krazy]

guess you missed the post where i said that i talked to the CO huh
He said to tag by the body, as the antlers are highly variable. You can call em to confirm if you want, they all get the same training.

One guy on the intraweb saying he talked to a CO hardley amounts to a fact. I have already heard from another hunter that talked to a CO that said you CAN tag by antlers. Strange how that can be since they all get the same training?

CO's, like cops, do not make the rules - they enforce them. The rules themselves are documented. If they exist then they are recorded somewhere. If they pertain to the public then they are publically accessable. So far nothing in the regs (the rule book for hunters) or CORE or anything else in this thread backs up that you must tag by the body and not antlers. If there is some rule out there that states this then I would love to see it.

Don't get me wrong, I love to hear what different peoples opinions are on this issue and am fine with people who come to different conclusions than I do based on thier opinions and experiences but I don't think it's fair to claim something as factual unless you can back it up with the appropriate references - cause if you can't all it amounts to is a bunch of guys yapping on the internet. :)

[krazy]

I've been waiting for this reply. Great looking buck krazy... great whietail rack and hog mulie body .... but seems everyone wants some tail. :p Funny how there's allot of posts stating they need the tail for an ID ... hope there wasn't a bunch of Texas Heart this pass season.:oops:

I believe the purpose of the pic was to discuss the validity of Hybrids. Good case here.


Thanks Freshtracks!

Rest assured that this shot was no where near the texas heart land. :-P

[Mr. Dean]

HEY! That photo was for my husband ONLY!! :wink:

Well... HELLOOOOO Sharkey.


How ya doin? :wink:

[hunter1947]

For as of me identifying a deer i will look the hole animal over as i have identified thousands of whitetail and mulies over the years and would know what the difference of the two would be. As for the antlers as long as there legal weather they look like white or mule ,down it would go.http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/images/icons/icon12.gif

[3kills]

k i tried to post two repliesto this dam therad and it wont let me but any other one it will...now that i m not writin my big long post this one will probably work...

[krazy]

k i tried to post two repliesto this dam therad and it wont let me but any other one it will...now that i m not writin my big long post this one will probably work...


LOL - I hate it when that happens. I now write the long stuff in txt pad or word and then cut & paste it into the reply - that way if it doesn't work you don't have to retype the whole thing.

[Fisher-Dude]

Did Krazy ever tell us what tag he cancelled on this deer? ;-)

[bighornbob]

Number of things to learn from this thread.


1. Just becuase a CO tells you one thing, does not make it law and does not make him any more knowledgable about the law. It is his interpretations of the law. (As an example I had a CO try using a flimsy metal hand saw to determine the legality of a bighorn instead of a jig designed for such purposes.)

2. Nice Mule deer in the picture.

3. Even better photoshop job.

BHB

[krazy]

Number of things to learn from this thread.


1. Just becuase a CO tells you one thing, does not make it law and does not make him any more knowledgable about the law. It is his interpretations of the law. (As an example I had a CO try using a flimsy metal hand saw to determine the legality of a bighorn instead of a jig designed for such purposes.)

2. Nice Mule deer in the picture.

3. Even better photoshop job.

BHB

1. I Agree

2. Thank you

3. Sorry dude, no photoshop here, photo's are the real deal.

[krazy]

Did Krazy ever tell us what tag he cancelled on this deer? ;-)

Come on .... now how much fun would that be ...... then you'd have nothing to speculate about :wink:

[wsm]

frist of all i believe it was revealed the Co did not tell FD that by his own admission. second if a Co tells you something and you disagree it does not mean do the opposite.if that flimsy metal saw had helped the Co that decide you made a mistake you could have been scr-wd. you could have a lot to lose. just my opinion. once again it doesn't matter what the rack or the body looks like the ass is how it's tagged. imagine for a minute you shoot a buck mulie rack, body and a whiteail butt , you tag it for mulie .it would be interesting it to see the insuing discussion with the Co, hell i would buy front row seats for that.

[MattB]

Its pretty obvious, he cut his whitey tag...he wouldnt have any argument if he had cut his muley which it is! I wouldnt be surprised if some COs look into this one...

[krazy]

Its pretty obvious, he cut his whitey tag...he wouldnt have any argument if he had cut his muley which it is! I wouldnt be surprised if some COs look into this one...

LOL! You got to love the intraweb :biggrin:

Matt is now the judge, jury and prosecutor and with nothing but speculation has made his ruling. All he knows for sure is that it is a deer that looks like a mulie but has whitetail looking antlers AND he does NOT know if it has a mulie tail or a whitetail tail. From this he has determined:

1. it is definatley a mulie
2. a whitetail tag has 'obviously' been cut

Too funny! :)

[krazy]

back to the discussion:


frist of all i believe it was revealed the Co did not tell FD that by his own admission. second if a Co tells you something and you disagree it does not mean do the opposite.if that flimsy metal saw had helped the Co that decide you made a mistake you could have been scr-wd. you could have a lot to lose. just my opinion. once again it doesn't matter what the rack or the body looks like the ass is how it's tagged. imagine for a minute you shoot a buck mulie rack, body and a whiteail butt , you tag it for mulie .it would be interesting it to see the insuing discussion with the Co, hell i would buy front row seats for that.

once again it doesn't matter what the rack or the body looks like the ass is how it's tagged

FD and others have said you use the body and not the antlers. This is the first time I have heard that it is specifically the tail that should be used. What is the source of this information?

imagine for a minute you shoot a buck mulie rack, body and a whiteail butt , you tag it for mulie .

I asked a question like this earlier but got no responses .... I'll ask it again.

If the deer in the pictures had a whitetail tail would that change anyones opinion? Would it now definatley be a hybrid? or perhaps a whitetail? or would it still be predominatley a mulie in most peoples minds?

[Fisher-Dude]

imagine for a minute you shoot a buck mulie rack, body and a whiteail butt , you tag it for mulie .



Such a critter doesn't exist. So, what tag did you cut?

[krazy]

Such a critter doesn't exist. So, what tag did you cut?

That's not my quote that is WSM's quote.

I asked "If the deer in the pictures had a whitetail tail would that change anyones opinion? Would it now definatley be a hybrid? or perhaps a whitetail? or would it still be predominatley a mulie in most peoples minds?"

[MattB]

Show us the tail and then we will have that problem, as far as im concerned its a muley...I dont see any whitetail characteristics in the picture...

[krazy]

Show us the tail and then we will have that problem, as far as im concerned its a muley...I dont see any whitetail characteristics in the picture...

If I told you what the tail looked like ahead of time then you may answer the question differently than you would before you knew for sure. I am very interested to know your (everybodys) opinion before I reveal information about the tail. This is actually one of the main reasons I started the thread.

come on ... who knows, you may be very surprised.

Here's a simplified version of the question: If the deer in the pictures had a whitetail tail what species would it be? (mulie, whitey, hybrid, other)?

[MattB]

If it had a whitetail tail then i would be thinking that it could possibly be a hybrid...I still think it has a muley tail though. There now you have my opinion, now show us a pic of his tail :grin:

[krazy]

If it had a whitetail tail then i would be thinking that it could possibly be a hybrid...I still think it has a muley tail though. There now you have my opinion, now show us a pic of his tail :grin:

we're getting close now!

ok so if this were your deer, and it had a whitetail tail making you think it that it could possibly be a hybrid, how would you tag it?

[wsm]

hoof size sounds good to me

[MattB]

I would contact the CO and ask them...no sense tagging something that may be wrong, i think you would need a CO's consent in that case...If the tail looked pure whitetail, then you could likely tag it as that...

[Fisher-Dude]

It's a mule deer. What tag did you cut?

[Mr. Dean]

I would contact the CO and ask them...no sense tagging something that may be wrong, i think you would need a CO's consent in that case...If the tail looked pure whitetail, then you could likely tag it as that...


A+ for MattB.

[Browningmirage]

I agree with MattB

whats the point of continuing a discussion like this, its all what ifs, no more fact here at all. Hybrids can exist, it is highly unlikely that they will be able to breed, or even mature for that matter as it is unlikely that they inherited any survival characteristics of either parent (it has been studied). Its a mule deer.

[MattB]

Now how about a scanned picture of your tag and a picture of his tail....Wait, we all know your whitey tag is cut, so how about cut your muley tag now and we will call it done

[KevinB]

There are a lot of other regulations interpretation situations worth worrying about that you have a far greater chance of encountering than shooting a hybrid deer. Krazy you're acting like an 8 year old kid ;) no offence intended. If it has a nice picture perfect whitetail tail then staple it to your hat like Davy Crockett and be happy. If anyone is really worried enough about actually shooting a muley-whitetail hybrid, and you're wondering what to do, then as MattB said, contact a CO. And, if you think you'll be somewhere out of phone contact, and you still think it's worth worrying about, talk to the CO ahead of time and get their take on it. And if after that you are still worried about it, print out the link I posted earlier and print it out and keep it in your pocket. It would seem to answer the question of how to tell if a deer is really a hybrid and the remote likelihood of actually encountering one. http://www.deertracking.com/library/dec2001_tails_dark_side.html

I don't really care what this deer's tail looks like by now, this is getting silly...and pointless. I can't think that I'll ever be in the situation where I have a deer on the ground that has an odd characteristic but I'm not allowed to look at its rump...or head...or metatarsals...or hair...or antlers...or whatever else.

I'd add the little eyes-rolling-back-in-the-head smiley icon here, but it's eyes don't go back nearly far enough for this...

[krazy]

Now how about a scanned picture of your tag and a picture of his tail....Wait, we all know your whitey tag is cut, so how about cut your muley tag now and we will call it done

OK Matt(lock)! LOL! Don't give up your day job!

[krazy]

I agree with MattB

whats the point of continuing a discussion like this, its all what ifs, no more fact here at all. Hybrids can exist, it is highly unlikely that they will be able to breed, or even mature for that matter as it is unlikely that they inherited any survival characteristics of either parent (it has been studied). Its a mule deer.


I agree with you. What started out as a discussion around hybrids and the way they should be treated turned into accusations by armchair biologists relying not on facts but on their emotions and opinions. I guess if I didn't think it was so funny I would be pissed.

[browningboy]

Wow, this entire thread is about which tag? Jeese, you guys have too much time on your hands to bitch about this!LOL:lol:

Anyhow deer down, good job!

[Derek_Erickson]

Awesome Deer, you want your decision take it to a CO, he'll tell you, then your not guessing, I guess Hybrids DO exsist, funny how they'd have a show on discovery channel and people still disbelief anyhow nice buck congrats

[Browningmirage]

Wow, this entire thread is about which tag? Geese, you guys have too much time on your hands to bitch about this!LOL:lol:

Anyhow deer down, good job!


Geese hey...Honk Honk

[Browningmirage]

I agree with you. What started out as a discussion around hybrids and the way they should be treated turned into accusations of poaching (cutting the wrong tag) by armchair biologists relying not on facts but on their emotions and opinions. I guess if I didn't think it was so funny I would be pissed.


Armchair bio...

I think there are a fair few university educated people on here...Im finishing up 2nd year Fish and Wildlife, and i know MattB has more than i do. I think it was more trying to get the actual tail pics out so that everyone could be satisfied. As for facts, it seems that the facts are out there, there is really nothing more to be discussed (other than DNA), so tell us about the tail.

My thoughts
you are amazing at perpetuating discussion, man oh man i havent seen one go on like this for a long time. I say tell us what kind of tail it had, and discuss hybrids in a seperate (albeit equally contentious) thread.
Good job, but i think more biology of the actual hybrids is required, and subsequent legalities of (possibly) shooting one in a seperate thread. Hybrids is an extremely popular topic, so people will be all up to get in on the discussion

[browningboy]

Geese hey...Honk Honk


Geese- jeese--whatever!:lol:

[Untouchable]

There goes ten minutes of my life...

[Gateholio]

Krazy, just get on wiht it and post the pic of the tail.

Quit trolling. You have everyones response. They think it's a mule deer. If you have a tail pic, post it.

[Untouchable]

Is your name krazy because you make everyone krazy or are you actually krazy?:cool:

[Kody94]

I loved this quote from the hyperlinked article....



The relative scarcity of confirmed hybrids among the hundreds of thousands of deer that have been seen throughout the area of range overlap illustrates how rare they are. Every year numerous reports are received of "hybrid" deer from hunters. Arizona researcher, Gerald Day (who produced captive hybrids) investigated over 200 reports of "hybrids" and did not find a single legitimate whitetail-mule deer hybrid. Most of these hybrid reports come from hunters who have a whitetail tag on the leg of a mule deer and are trying to convince the Game Warden that they are at least half right.


:D

Cheers,
4Ster

[Freshtracks]

Its pretty obvious, he cut his whitey tag...he wouldnt have any argument if he had cut his muley which it is! I wouldnt be surprised if some COs look into this one...

And if he cut his mulie tag? :lol: ... I'd love for the CO's take on this one Matt.


I would contact the CO and ask them...no sense tagging something that may be wrong, i think you would need a CO's consent in that case...If the tail looked pure whitetail, then you could likely tag it as that...

:eek: .. you're stating you'd shoot a deer before positively identifying the species ... then ask a CO's advise on which tag you should cut, LATER? :cool:

If it had a mulies tail and they were closed? and/or if it had a whitetail tail and whitetail were closed?

Allot easier to discuss ... than blow ones own horn.

[3kills]

why cant I post long posts to this dam thread LOL...this is the longest i have seen a hybrid thread go with out it gettin locked....

p.s i think he cut his mulie tag...

[Elkhound]

why cant I post long posts to this dam thread LOL...this is the longest i have seen a hybrid thread go with out it gettin locked....

p.s i think he cut his mulie tag...

Have no idea. and it is the longest;)

[hunter1947]

I talked to a CO that i know down in Vic yesterday about this deer ,he said to me that you identify the features of the animal ,NOT THE ANTLERS..

[Ltbullken]

Can you provide picture of the rump? What's the rump and tail look like?

[Ltbullken]

Nice Rack,and womens panties :wink:http://www.salsrackscalendar.com/howorder.jpg

I tagged out on one of those 18yrs ago... still a keeper! ;)

[hunter1947]

I tagged out on one of those 18yrs ago... still a keeper! ;)
I would take the antlers over that women any dayhttp://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/images/icons/icon12.gif.

[Mr. Dean]

I perdict this'll go ~ 7 more posts, before it's locked down.


It's WAY past time to "put up" or......

[krazy]

I would take the antlers over that women any dayhttp://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/images/icons/icon12.gif.

and they call me krazy......

[MattB]

And if he cut his mulie tag? :lol: ... I'd love for the CO's take on this one Matt.



:eek: .. you're stating you'd shoot a deer before positively identifying the species ... then ask a CO's advise on which tag you should cut, LATER? :cool:

If it had a mulies tail and they were closed? and/or if it had a whitetail tail and whitetail were closed?

Allot easier to discuss ... than blow ones own horn.

I didnt say anything about shooting something that was illegal. And if you did drop a deer that was questionable, report it anyways...people make mistakes :roll:

[Tikka7mm]

Now how about a scanned picture of your tag and a picture of his tail....Wait, we all know your whitey tag is cut, so how about cut your muley tag now and we will call it done

This is too funny....lol. Captivating thread but I have to agree with MattB...just tell us already!

[krazy]

I would contact the CO and ask them...no sense tagging something that may be wrong, i think you would need a CO's consent in that case...If the tail looked pure whitetail, then you could likely tag it as that...

what a weak answer. if you were not 100% sure of what it was you should not have pulled the trigger - not shoot it first and then call the CO for help. if you knew it had a whitetail tail (like the question stated) and still chose to shoot it then you must have known how you would tag it. lame.



Krazy, just get on wiht it and post the pic of the tail.

Quit trolling. You have everyones response. They think it's a mule deer. If you have a tail pic, post it.

Sorry Gatehouse I was not meaning to "troll". I was simply trying to steer the discussion to the intent of the thread.

I wanted to know what attributes most people would use to determine species ID in the case of hybrids and was hoping that someone would/could produce some specifc language (law) on the matter.

So in an attempt to salvage something from this thread here is what I think we have learned from it:

1. I think that it's safe to say that most people feel that you should use the body over the antlers to determine species.

2. With respect to law, unfortunatley, there was nothing provided other than hearsay - a few people saying that they "heard from a CO". I scoured the regs, CORE and the internet and turned up nothing substantial on the subject. It seems to be a very grey area and my guess is that different CO's would give you different answers on the issue.

3. There were 3 or 4 people that provided us with links to some great information on hybrids! Thanks to these guys/girls for focusing on the topic! From reading this information I now beleive that the best way to dtermine species is by examination of the metatarsal glands. If you go by these I don't think you can go wrong. At least if you were ever questioned on your decision you can back it up with the research. To me this one learning was worth the thread.

4. No matter what the topic it seems that there are always individuals out there that get so emotional when things don't go their way or when everybody (somebody) doesn't agree with their particular opinion that they resort to spouting off unsubstantiated comments, rumours and false accusations in an attempt to sway people to their way of thinking and/or to discredit individuals or the topic itself. This thread was no different - a few individuals got so upset that I would not state which tag was cut or inform them about the tail that they determined it themselves, based on nothing but speculation, throwing this thread sideways. It's sad but it seems to be a fact of internet life. I will however take some blame for it carrying on as I love to push their buttons once they get going.

5. My spelling sucks. :p


It's a mule deer. What tag did you cut?

Straight forward, to the point and persistant.

It was my intention from the begining to eventually divulge this information. As the thread went on and the bull$hit started to fly I changed my mind because I really liked the fact that not knowing would continue to piss certain people off. But then I realized that there were way more people watching and participating in this thread that were helpfull, complimentary (not even sure if thats a word) and definatley patient so I reconsidered - again. so, without further to do and to put and end to all of this for those who feel they really need to know.............................................. .


The deer in the picture has a 100% mule deer tail and was immediatley tagged as such.


Thanks for playing name that deer....................

[MattB]

If the deer is a legal deer to shoot then why not shoot it? You are allowed a whitey or a muley anywhere I hunt most of the time i hunt. If i see horn and its big i will shoot it regardless without even thinking of the possibility of a hybrid as long as i have a whitey and muley tag and its legal then it doesnt matter.

[wsm]

thats awsome. nice buck:lol:

[Freshtracks]

I talked to a CO that i know down in Vic yesterday about this deer ,he said to me that you identify the features of the animal ,NOT THE ANTLERS..

Thanx for a more direct found answer Wayne ... it's posssible other CO's might have a slight more varied response too.


I didnt say anything about shooting something that was illegal.

As did krazy ... discussion lad, discussion.:wink:

[Browningmirage]

Krazy

Maybe waiting until post 158 to put up the tail is kinda weak.

If you are out hunting and stopped by a game warden, and refuse to show your tag, he can charge you with
A) Failure to produce
B) If he suspects you to have tagged the animal incorrectly, he is perfectly allowed to charge you for that too. By not producing, you create a whole crapload of problems for yourself.

Sure we arent game wardens (some of us are studying to be), but hey, you dont produce, we are allowed to make inferences about what it may be (even if it is wrong).

Game wardens arent limited in the same way as police are. You have to do everything to assist that you are able to do. Just putting it out there, by keeping it from us, we are allowed to make inferences. By you not stepping up and proving what you have, the inferences are not falsified (send a PM to let us know if you want the discussion to go on), and we are allowed to keep believing them.

[MattB]

Nice muley :smile:

[Ltbullken]

:lol:
what a weak answer. if you were not 100% sure of what it was you should not have pulled the trigger - not shoot it first and then call the CO for help. if you knew it had a whitetail tail (like the question stated) and still chose to shoot it then you must have known how you would tag it. lame.


Sorry Gatehouse I was not meaning to "troll". I was simply trying to steer the discussion to the intent of the thread.

I wanted to know what attributes most people would use to determine species ID in the case of hybrids and was hoping that someone would/could produce some specifc language (law) on the matter.

So in an attempt to salvage something from this thread here is what I think we have learned from it:

1. I think that it's safe to say that most people feel that you should use the body over the antlers to determine species.

2. With respect to law, unfortunatley, there was nothing provided other than hearsay - a few people saying that they "heard from a CO". I scoured the regs, CORE and the internet and turned up nothing substantial on the subject. It seems to be a very grey area and my guess is that different CO's would give you different answers on the issue.

3. There were 3 or 4 people that provided us with links to some great information on hybrids! Thanks to these guys/girls for focusing on the topic! From reading this information I now beleive that the best way to dtermine species is by examination of the metatarsal glands. If you go by these I don't think you can go wrong. At least if you were ever questioned on your decision you can back it up with the research. To me this one learning was worth the thread.

4. No matter what the topic it seems that there are always individuals out there that get so emotional when things don't go their way or when everybody (somebody) doesn't agree with their particular opinion that they resort to spouting off unsubstantiated comments, rumours and false accusations and sometimes even blatent lies in an attempt to sway people to their way of thinking and/or to discredit individuals or the topic itself. This thread was no different - a few individuals got so upset that I would not state which tag was cut or inform them about the tail that they determined it themselves, based on nothing, and then proceeded to conclude that the tag that they said I cut did not match the tail that they said the deer had basically labelling me a poacher. It's sad but it seems to be a fact of internet life. I will, however take some blame for it carrying on as I love to push their buttons once they get going.

5. My spelling sucks.

Straight forward, to the point and persistant.

It was my intention from the begining to eventually divulge this information. As the thread went on and the bull$hit started to fly I changed my mind because I really liked the fact that not knowing would continue to piss certain people off. But then I realized that there were way more people watching and participating in this thread that were helpfull, complimentary (not even sure if thats a word) and definatley patient so I reconsidered - again. so, without further to do and to put and end to all of this for those who feel they really need to know.............................................. .


The deer in the picture has a 100% mule deer tail and was immediatley tagged as such.


Thanks for playing name that deer....................

Okay... but we have also heard that body charactersitics are not everything, though are a big part of it. If you cannot identify it purely as a mule or a whitetail, then it not legal shooting as species is not identifiable. The regs say nothing about a 'hybrid' season! :x

[Tikka7mm]

The deer in the picture has a 100% mule deer tail and was immediatley tagged as such.


Thanks for playing name that deer....................[/quote]


C'mon! Show us a picture of the tail!

[whitetailsheds]

With the description of the tail being that of a mulie, as there is still no photo of same, I'll say again, mulie! And with this new info (tail description), to distance this discussion away from any speculation as to it being a hybrid. In the early '80's, U of A wildlife researcher Bill Wishart studied "hybrid" deer, and, forgive me it's been a few years since I went over the article in the Journal of Mammology "Whitetail and Mule Deer Hybrids of Alberta", found that hybrids would have basically a WHITETAIL tail. Haired the same, structure/ shaped the same, the biggest difference was the white hairs along the edge of the tail were not present. And a predominance of black/ darker colored hair from the middle of the tail moving towards the tip. So, you had traits of both deer, but from a distance it would look like a whitey tail. I posted earlier and mentioned location/ shape of metatarsals as another means of identification. I realize that this would be next to impossible to utilize in the field, and not without some "edumacashun", but this was one of the other identifiable/ observable differences. BUT......in actually determining one or the other, is thru something called electrophoresis. This is a process of identifying characteristics of animal proteins by shape, size, and electrical charge. And, since each animal has it's own characteristics, it can be determined which animal it came from. Of which, there is a difference between mule, whitetail, and hybrid. Wow, I'm surprised that diploma from the Biological Sciences program at the Northern Alberta Institute of Technology in '86 came in handy.

[dana]

Wow, seems these hybrids are takin over. Heard this one was spotted in Merrit this past week. I hear the CO's there let you tag them as whitetails. Since I still have my whitey tag in my pocket, maybe I should go kill it on the last day of the season. LMAO!!!
http://www.monstermuleys.info/dcforum/User_files/475b7d5a6cbe2767.jpg

http://www.monstermuleys.info/dcforum/User_files/475b7d966e046ac0.jpg

[Browningmirage]

Wow, seems these hybrids are takin over. Heard this one was spotted in Merrit this past week. I hear the CO's there let you tag them as whitetails. Since I still have my whitey tag in my pocket, maybe I should go kill it on the last day of the season. LMAO!!!
http://www.monstermuleys.info/dcforum/User_files/475b7d5a6cbe2767.jpg

http://www.monstermuleys.info/dcforum/User_files/475b7d966e046ac0.jpg


what is the name of the wildlife biologist that you commonly talk about

Going on a bus ride, and thinking that i want to do some reading.

[bruin]

It's the thread that never ends!!

[krazy]

Thanx for a more direct found answer Wayne ... it's posssible other CO's might have a slight more varied response too.

Originally Posted by MattB http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/showthread.php?p=216615#post216615)

I didnt say anything about shooting something that was illegal.

Originally Posted by Freshtracks http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/showthread.php?p=216615#post216615)

As did krazy ... discussion lad, discussion.

Thanks freshtracks!



Krazy
Maybe waiting until post 158 to put up the tail is kinda weak.

(send a PM to let us know if you want the discussion to go on).[/quote]

I thought that by waitning it would stimulate more discussion on hybrids - big mistake. And I was ok with speculating just not with the accusations. The discussion will go on if people are interested but i would hope it is focused on hybrids.


Nice muley :)

DAMN you mattlock - is that all you got? I thought up a 1000 comebacks for you while i was away! J/K :razz:




C'mon! Show us a picture of the tail!

Tikka if I had a pic of the tail I would post it. I didn't even think to take pics of the tail cause I didn't think of starting this thread until much later when people were commenting on the whitetailishness (another made up word?) of it's antlers.

[troutseeker]

Nice mule deer.

Troutseeker

[dana]

Dude,
U obviously are coming into the hybrid debate a little late ain't ya? LOL! On this site numerous times some have claimed to see fields full of hybrids in McBride. And the claim has been made numerous times that the CO in Merrit will let ya tag a 3 point muley as a hybrid. Thus if you want to burn your whitey tag in Merrit, it is pretty easy according to the pros on this site. BTW, these pros aren't kiding. They firmly believe the province is running rampant with hybrids. They firmly believe your buck qualifies as a hybrid, just look at those antlers. Muleys don't have antlers like that right? So....your lame attempt to fool anyone or get the discussion on hybrids going, you miss the one liners that are dirrected not at you, but at the other hybrid fools on this board.

[Freshtracks]

Dude,
U obviously are coming into the hybrid debate a little late ain't ya? LOL! On this site numerous times some have claimed to see fields full of hybrids in McBride. And the claim has been made numerous times that the CO in Merrit will let ya tag a 3 point muley as a hybrid. Thus if you want to burn your whitey tag in Merrit, it is pretty easy according to the pros on this site. BTW, these pros aren't kiding. They firmly believe the province is running rampant with hybrids. They firmly believe your buck qualifies as a hybrid, just look at those antlers. Muleys don't have antlers like that right? So....your lame attempt to fool anyone or get the discussion on hybrids going, you miss the one liners that are dirrected not at you, but at the other hybrid fools on this board.

LOL ... according to CAME? :roll: Shame all the beginners frequenting here have topics to learn from. :eek: Maybe this isn't a discussion forum. :redface:

btw - Get the facts straight ... Merrit has no hybrids anymore ... they apparently migrated all to Clearwater.:p

[CanuckShooter]

Dude,
U obviously are coming into the hybrid debate a little late ain't ya? LOL! On this site numerous times some have claimed to see fields full of hybrids in McBride. And the claim has been made numerous times that the CO in Merrit will let ya tag a 3 point muley as a hybrid. Thus if you want to burn your whitey tag in Merrit, it is pretty easy according to the pros on this site. BTW, these pros aren't kiding. They firmly believe the province is running rampant with hybrids. They firmly believe your buck qualifies as a hybrid, just look at those antlers. Muleys don't have antlers like that right? So....your lame attempt to fool anyone or get the discussion on hybrids going, you miss the one liners that are dirrected not at you, but at the other hybrid fools on this board.


Wise up young feller.....lots of hybrids in McBride. Hybrid the blonde, hybrid the brunette, hybrid the mayors daughter....:wink:

[whitetailsheds]

"Whitetailishness".......ya baby, now that's what I'm talking 'bout.....love it!

[TIKA 300]

#1 THE whole point of this THREAD is KRAZYs a HYBRID,and doesnt want to be harvested,and is looking to see if hunters will LOL !!!!!

#2 CANT believe the crap that people bring out in a thread like this (myself included)

#3 Shows me the patience level of particapants and makes me wonder if i would EVER hunt with them (be it right or wrong,in my opinion Krazy kept his cool)

[dukester]

not to steal this thread, but this whitetail i shot is not your perfect whitetail antlers. From the Hybrids i have studied in Waterton lks National park, you need to be a expert to detect the differences IF your not an outdoorsmen.,, ears, tail, color, facial features would have to be looked at carefully. The Mulies in Waterton had small whitetail ears and a tail that was med size, half and half.

[NEEHAMA]

i seen lot's of hybirds this weekend. two flocks of mallards and a few pintails. hard to knock down at that range though..but i got one fat green head!

[Fisher-Dude]

not to steal this thread, but this whitetail i shot is not your perfect whitetail antlers. From the Hybrids i have studied in Waterton lks National park, you need to be a expert to detect the differences IF your not an outdoorsmen.,, ears, tail, color, facial features would have to be looked at carefully. The Mulies in Waterton had small whitetail ears and a tail that was med size, half and half.

Nothing muley-ish about that whitetail pic in your post. I've seen lots of whities with split G2s. Nice buck, BTW!

[BCrams]

Just check out the buck in the 'out of province hunts'. There is a whitetail picture there from an area where there are no mule deer, yet has forked backs like a mule deer. Does this make it a hybrid?

[Tikka7mm]

Tikka if I had a pic of the tail I would post it. I didn't even think to take pics of the tail cause I didn't think of starting this thread until much later when people were commenting on the whitetailishness (another made up word?) of it's antlers. [/quote]


Fair enough!

[Wild one]

Krazy after reading all of this if I ever meet you will have to buy you a beer that was the f#$%&ing funny:lol:.

[Grandbois]

Nice buck, great shot too

[Ltbullken]

I'm having trouble finding a hybrid open season in the regs...