Is there more Three Points now in reg 3?

[NEEHAMA]

since we have been targeting four point mulies in reg 3 etc.
do you think there is increasingly more large three points out there as this DNA is being protected at times?

[Orangethunder]

I dont think so. With October any buck season and the youth season I think that enough get taken. Its not like every 4 point and better gets shot, the big bucks live on and generally breed at least a few does prior to getting shot (if they do). Plus there are plenty of folks that pass on 4's all the time looking for a big non typical or the true hog. I have seen some really great three's though...

[huntermike]

We took 2 really great 3 points this year from reg 3 .

[NEEHAMA]

i sure seen alot of hammer threes in the last two years.

[Derek_Erickson]

I seen countless three's this year, a couple real good ones aswell!

[Will]

Drive around kamloops on Oct 1st(any buck opener)..........there's a Gutpile every 50 meters on every FSR for 10 miles around.

Plenty of folks take Bucks in Oct and don't bother counting.

I doubt there are More 3's now then before the 4 point or better season.......otherwise there would be more spikes, two pointers etc. as well right ? :wink:

I'm guessing it's Murphy's law.... if it was 3 points or less all everyone would see are 4 pointers:tongue:

[NEEHAMA]

well aren't all bucks spikers for at least one season when they are on their second year?

[dana]

well aren't all bucks spikers for at least one season when they are on their second year?

Nope! Spikes are just genetically inferior. Most of them won't amount to jackshit when they grow up. Most big bucks start out as basket racked 4's in their first year. In a good area, you'll see a ton of these little rat 4 points killed. Which in essense, makes the goal of the 4 point or better season of targeting the mature deer, pointless.

Big 3's are sometimes regressed bucks or they just never had the genetics in the first place. But even if they were the only ones doing the breeding cause the 4's were being whacked by every hunter, you still would get 4's growing up. Why??? Cause bucks breed with does which produce fawns who get their genetics from both sides of the family tree. :)

[mrdoog]

"Drive around kamloops on Oct 1st(any buck opener)..........there's a Gutpile every 50 meters on every FSR for 10 miles around.'

HMMM, that would count in the hundreds of thousands!
Deer, deer, for everyone.

[dana]

Mr Doog,
I think Will is telling everyone to go hunt Kamloops don't ya think? Sounds like everyone will get their deer if they are that plentiful. :)

[mrdoog]

You know it Dog!

[Tanya]

Tanya's hubby John here,

I am a pure bred cattle breeder and have studied genetics at college. The first thing my genetics prof in college taught us was that the quickest way to change any population of animals is to cull (remove) the animals that display the trait you want removed. So shoot more 4 points (and I've seen lots of smaller 4 points ) and you are genetically selecting for 3 point or smaller antlers. I also believe that a main frame 3 point that is 2 and a half years old will always be a main frame 3 point. It would make way more sense to me to have set the restriction at 3 points as this would still protect nearly all the 1 and a half year olds, if the object is to have more older deer.

[Will]

Mr Doog,
I think Will is telling everyone to go hunt Kamloops don't ya think? Sounds like everyone will get their deer if they are that plentiful. :)
Dam straight I'd Love it if everyone tagged out here in Oct ! ;)

[browningboy]

I believe that the point rules do tend to wipe out gene pools, as from all my experiences with moose and the stupid tri-palm rule, years back the tri and quad palms were plenty and now quite abit more scarce, the elk as well.
Anyhow a little off the deer topic but somewhat related.

[mainland hunter]

Dana, So is shooting spikes and 2's actually beneficial to the overall genetics of an area?

[krazy]

Tanya's hubby John here,

I am a pure bred cattle breeder and have studied genetics at college. The first thing my genetics prof in college taught us was that the quickest way to change any population of animals is to cull (remove) the animals that display the trait you want removed. So shoot more 4 points (and I've seen lots of smaller 4 points ) and you are genetically selecting for 3 point or smaller antlers. I also believe that a main frame 3 point that is 2 and a half years old will always be a main frame 3 point. It would make way more sense to me to have set the restriction at 3 points as this would still protect nearly all the 1 and a half year olds, if the object is to have more older deer.

I agree. I have no education in this field but over my 20 years of hunting in the same area I have definately observed more big 3 points as dominant bucks every year since the the 4 point rule. As John says, if the purpose of the reg is to spare the yearlings (1.5 year olds) then you can still accomplish it with a 3 point or more season and therefore still be able to cull out the mature 3's.

[BIGHUNTERFISH]

Nope! Spikes are just genetically inferior. Most of them won't amount to jackshit when they grow up. Most big bucks start out as basket racked 4's in their first year. In a good area, you'll see a ton of these little rat 4 points killed. Which in essense, makes the goal of the 4 point or better season of targeting the mature deer, pointless.

Big 3's are sometimes regressed bucks or they just never had the genetics in the first place. But even if they were the only ones doing the breeding cause the 4's were being whacked by every hunter, you still would get 4's growing up. Why??? Cause bucks breed with does which produce fawns who get their genetics from both sides of the family tree. :)

Spikes are not genetically inferior,thats B.S ,even Val Geist will tell you that.

[Ridge-Runner]

Interesting topic and several issues come into play, first you’d have to stop genetic flow which would be very very difficult with our mule deer population. Gene flow is the transfer of genes between isolated or contiguous populations, which in a province like ours has many ways to flow or move, not like an island. Species such as mule deer which are relatively abundant and wide spread, gene flow is very pronounced. As a result, there is always a good chance of new alleles being introduced from within and from outside, why because mule deer have the ability to move great distances and home ranges overlap and are contiguous in a lot of places and during a hunting season not all 4 points or their relatives are removed.

So my point is, when the members of a large population reproduce, the overall gene pool remains unchanged. But if the population is very small (say 50 individuals or less), chance effects begin to creep in. As a result their charactertics will become more common, not through natural selection, but purely by accident.

I understand your point in that harvesting a large portion of the “4 points” you feel that genetically determined “3 points” will do the majority of the breeding and therefore we will see more 3 points in the long run. The only problem is that all three points may not stay three points from year to year due to age, condition, etc…some maybe older bucks recessing and others could be younger bucks possessing good health and genetics, which have not fully matured. Younger bucks say spikes and two points may also carry the four gene and are abiding their time to breed successfully. But most of all as mentioned earlier is all animals possess half of their maternal mother genetics. So if you could eliminate all the variables, yes if could happen, but the likely hood is very small and would take a great deal of time, many generations. Also it doesn’t take a lot of individuals to create genetic diversity within a population, one or two animals over several years is lots. If this was not the case a lot of our some what isolated mountain goat population would be in trouble. I’m not saying that harvesting one aspect of any population is a good thing to do and may have some effects over a long period of time on more isolated species other than mule deer, but I don’t feel that the genetic integrity of our mule deer are being compromised.

Hope this helps, RR

[ruttinbuck]

I took this pic 10 days ago in Kamloops.
This buck had 30-40 does,fawns and small bucks with him two days in a row.The deer obviously were'nt leaving the hayfield and he is the biggest buck around.This buck runs in body size with the biggest I have ever saw and bigger than any I have shot.He is probably 350lbs on the hoof.
As you can see he is a high heavy 3 point,I am betting he never was a 4pt and never will be.There is a 3pt gene here that does prevail in some of bucks.
Sorry for the lousy quality of the pic I was 200yds away from him,you can open the pic and zoom in to gat a good look at him.RB
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f217/ruttinbuck/wildlife/Days3point.jpg

[Ridge-Runner]

Interesting I only have a few questions;

First, how did you determine that he is the biggest buck around, please explain your survey methods or how this was determined?

What would the size of a breeding bucks home range in you neck of the woods to ensure that he indeed did the majority of the breeding or not? and how was this determined?

With all the smaller bucks around how do you know the sneaker strategy did not apply here?

What’s your meaning of “around” in terms of size, within one km, five km, ten km?

How are you so sure that this buck has never been a four or is going to be a four point?

I will say that we should all be careful of our assumptions when casual ecology is applied and this especially rings true when it comes to genetic diversity???

One more thing, comparing livestock to wildlife, well one is basically a closed population and one an open population, big difference.

Just some thoughts, RR

[ruttinbuck]

Interesting I only have a few questions;

First, how did you determine that he is the biggest buck around, please explain your survey methods or how this was determined?

He is staying right in amongst the herd for consecutive days during prime rut time.This to me suggests no larger bucks have moved him out.

What would the size of a breeding bucks home range in you neck of the woods to ensure that he indeed did the majority of the breeding or not? and how was this determined?

I am using the 800 acres+\- and the 30-40 deer that use it as a year round home as my basis of his home range.
There has been a dominent 3pt gene becoming mor evident over the last 2 decades in the area.

With all the smaller bucks around how do you know the sneaker strategy did not apply here?

Sneaky maybe but judging from what I saw any movement from the big 3pt ev towards the smaller bucks put them in their place.

What’s your meaning of “around” in terms of size, within one km, five km, ten km?

I will go with one KM here.Bucks do cruise wherever the nose takes them searching out the smell of the season.However this pasture holds the herd year round and the big 3pt probably doesnt wander to far away from it.He has feed,cover,security of urban sprawl all there so nothing bigger than a coyote for predators.

How are you so sure that this buck has never been a four or is going to be a four point?

I can't be 100% on this question,I have watched,viewed,studied,hunted and shot quite a few mulie bucks over the last couple of decades and this is just a opinion based on past experiences.

I will say that we should all be careful of our assumptions when casual ecology is applied and this especially rings true when it comes to genetic diversity???

One more thing, comparing livestock to wildlife, well one is basically a closed population and one an open population, big difference.

Just some thoughts, RR
Thanks for your thoughts and questions.
Thats all my views are as well a deer nut that has read some info studied alot of deer and had some great seasons hunting them.RB

[Ridge-Runner]

Thanks Ruttinbuck for attempting to answer my questions, sorry they were a bit loaded and difficult to anwser. I'm only trying to demonstrate that a lot comes into play when talking about genetic diversity and thier role in a open population and there's a lot more to it than mentioned here. The biggest problem is being able to answer the questions with confidents and that would take a lot of time and effort, and you'd still run into naysayers.

Thanks for your time, RR

[GoatGuy]

Any buck all the way til November will solve any perceived problem.

[Tanya]

Tanya's hubby John here;

Some points to your questions RR;

It is usually quite easy to tell which is the dominate buck in a herd as he will not tolerate other bucks that are close in size hanging around "his" does.

If any secondary bucks are breeding in this case they are probably not 4 points as these would be open for harvest.

Region 3 is not a small area or closed population it is a huge geographical area and is also not the only area that has the 4 point rule. Therefore any influx of breeding bucks are undergoing the same selection process.

Anyone who has studied individual deer from year to year can tell you that their antler configuration remains similar. He may get some trash or non-typical points as he gets older but this deer will never have a typical 4 point frame.

As for cattle being a closed population we have access to genetics from around the world. My point is that like livestock, if you select for a single trait long enough, you will influence the population. The results may not be as immediate in a wild population but the effect will be real non the less.

[horshur]

Sorry--you all are taking way to much credit of how many animals are being taken and when.
This year in particular many deer are still up. They have hardly been hunted.

[Ridge-Runner]

John thanks for the response, but if we are to stay somewhat within the boundaries of genetics and science we’re going to have some major difficulties with your approach.

Quote, “It is usually quite easy to tell which is the dominate buck in a herd as he will not tolerate other bucks that are close in size hanging around "his" does”


Firstly, the choice of wording leaves a lot open “usually” means just that; sometimes, occasionally, maybe, etc…. but it’s not definitely or positively. Would we be happy if we went to our doctors and they said, “usually people live after a vasectomy” or our bankers tell us that “we usually give your money back,” or how about “fly with us, we usually make it,” I somehow don’t think any of us would be happy with that answer.

For the rest of your statement, yes a dominate buck tries TO maintain his breeding opportunities and does not tolerate subordinate males, but from all the literature I’ve read this rarely occurs, and it is why I mentioned the “sneaker strategy” earlier. As for “his” does, I don’t think they take marital vows, but it’s more like ungulate orgies, total polygamists, and if opportunity presents itself copulation is quite quick. Also there are a lot of factors that can influence the rut and how it succeeds.


Quote, “If any secondary bucks are breeding in this case they are probably not 4 points as these would be open for harvest.’

Again, please tell me how you are determining if these bucks have never been or are never going to be a four point? Or do not possess the gene to be a four point? Also from my stand point it is impossible to tell wildlife genetic variability visually. Too bad this same theory didn’t hold true in the cattle industry, there would be no need for brands, ear tags, cuts, crops or any other manmade identifier, you just identify them visually out on the open range all together, when you sell that one to the cattlemen’s association I’ll believe your genetical theory? Let me know when we can start ripping out the fences, and “free the cattle for Darwin”


Quote, “Region 3 is not a small area or closed population it is a huge geographical area and is also not the only area that has the 4 point rule. Therefore any influx of breeding bucks are undergoing the same selection process.”

You must have misunderstood me; I’m not at all saying that the mule deer population in this Province is closed it is definitely an open population!!!!

Open population; a population into which gene flow is freely possible.

In an open population, such as a deer population, breeding selections is still more on a fitness level where the dynamics of the rut takes place. I’m not about to explain survival of the fittest or breeding strategies of ungulates here.



Quote, ‘Anyone who has studied individual deer from year to year can tell you that their antler configuration remains similar. He may get some trash or non-typical points as he gets older but this deer will never have a typical 4 point frame.’

Could you please provide some references so we can determine if the ones studying these individual deer were not penned, had no tags, collars, or marks of any type, and that these researchers just drew their conclusion strictly from antidotal observations? The literature I’ve read on this is definitely not someone’s impression of looking at an unmarked free ranging mule deer.

Quote, “As for cattle being a closed population we have access to genetics from around the world. My point is that like livestock, if you select for a single trait long enough, you will influence the population. The results may not be as immediate in a wild population but the effect will be real non the less.”

I’m not disputing that in small closed population that you can not single out traits (Gregor Mendel comes to mind, but then again, closed population) but when we’re dealing with the provinces mule deer population the numbers are too vast and the population too open, and the genetic variability too great.

Even though cattle genetics come from around the world there is one HUGE difference, and that is YOU are determining the breeding opportunities and genetics not your cows!!!!!!! This by no means is, “a population into which gene flow is freely possible.”


“Free choice for cows, and free the cattle for Darwin”


RR

[NEEHAMA]

wow, some of you guy's really know your stuff....thanks

[Tikka7mm]

Nope! Spikes are just genetically inferior. Most of them won't amount to jackshit when they grow up. Most big bucks start out as basket racked 4's in their first year. In a good area, you'll see a ton of these little rat 4 points killed. Which in essense, makes the goal of the 4 point or better season of targeting the mature deer, pointless.

Big 3's are sometimes regressed bucks or they just never had the genetics in the first place. But even if they were the only ones doing the breeding cause the 4's were being whacked by every hunter, you still would get 4's growing up. Why??? Cause bucks breed with does which produce fawns who get their genetics from both sides of the family tree. :)


That's some good info Dana. You learn something new every day as they say.

[Will]

wow, some of you guy's really know your stuff....thanks
If you can't answer the question then Baffle them with Bull$hit ! :-P

[pupper]

Nope! Spikes are just genetically inferior. Most of them won't amount to jackshit when they grow up. Most big bucks start out as basket racked 4's in their first year. In a good area, you'll see a ton of these little rat 4 points killed. Which in essense, makes the goal of the 4 point or better season of targeting the mature deer, pointless.

Big 3's are sometimes regressed bucks or they just never had the genetics in the first place. But even if they were the only ones doing the breeding cause the 4's were being whacked by every hunter, you still would get 4's growing up. Why??? Cause bucks breed with does which produce fawns who get their genetics from both sides of the family tree. :)

well said Dana

[Ridge-Runner]

Will, I guess that's the difference between an open and closed mind:biggrin: just because you don't understand the intricate workings of a colour television, then it must be Bullshat, good theory? Natural selection is an incessant process....... thank God!!!!

I hear the Hare Krishna's are looking for deep thinkers?

Cheers, RR

[daycort]

What dana says makes perfectly good sense.

One question though. If three points have been dominant for say a period of 5 or 6 years or more, isn't the majority of the breeding does at this time have the 3 point genetics making it all to certain of a mature 3 point in the males deer adult years?

[Will]

Will, I guess that's the difference between an open and closed mind:biggrin: just because you don't understand the intricate workings of a colour television, then it must be Bullshat, good theory? Natural selection is an incessant process....... thank God!!!!

I hear the Hare Krishna's are looking for deep thinkers?

Sounds like you have the closed mind....not open to anyone questioning your hypothesis without getting snarky ? :o

As far as TV's go I'm not sure why you assume I do not understand the intricate workings of a colour television ? Did I give my field of work ? I'm pretty sure I did not although I'm not too sure how that relates to the 3 Point discussion at hand anyways ? Again more Bull$hit:???:

As far as Slamming my Religious Faith as well as my Krishna Brothers and sisters well perhaps READ the forum rules and you will see poking fun of someone's Religion is Taboo.........


FWIW ! I've hunted Deer off and on around Kamloops for the better part of 30 Years..........there are NO more or less 3 pointers running around here then there ever was.

I have a relative who's shed is full of racks from the last 50 years around here.........guess what ? As a meat hunter there are plenty of 3x3 racks on that pile as well, some older then me and the 4 Point only seasons.:roll:

This is the best post to this thead yet.......

Sorry--you all are taking way to much credit of how many animals are being taken and when.

[Ridge-Runner]

Sorry if I offended you, I was just using the same sarcasm you use so frequently and my thoughts were not directed at you or anyone. My posts were only trying to help show how genetic variabilty works in an open populations.

Sorry again if I offend you or anyone else?

Regards, RR

[dana]

Alright, here's my take on the 3 point issue. If you see a greater percentage of 3 points during hunting season, what are you basing that on? You are just basing that on the deer you see right? As hunters, I can tell ya, we only see just a hiccup of the deer that are actually out there. It's all a matter of being in the right place at the right time. There is so much cover in the timber between the many openings that you actually can see into, that the majority of the bucks out there are actually living life sight unseen by many many hunters. Now, throw in the fact that if everytime a four point sees a human, that human is trying to kill him. He's gonna try to keep himself hidden in order to live. But....the 3 point sees humans all the time, and low and behold, he hasn't had any safety concerns. If the buck feels safe, he's not going to run and hide every time a vehicle comes up the road. He's just gonna mind his own business as these humans haven't done him any wrong right? Soooo, long and short of it, 3 points don't have to be so secretive.
Another point that I should make is, the real big mature bucks, the ones that do the majority of the breeding, well, they feel quite secure in their dominance and they put up with smaller bucks hanging out with the does. He actually uses those smaller bucks to do his tending for him. You see, females tend to like a little forplay before they are ready for the great event. The Big Boys know this and let the little guys do that work for them. Many times they are bedded away from the herd of does in some thick crap and when the time is right, they walk right in and Wham, Bam thank ya Mam, it's over.
As for the spike issue, a spike is the runt. He was born a little later than the other deer and thus is always trying to catch up. To say he'll amount to anything spectatular is just wishful thinking.

[BIGHUNTERFISH]

Spike Bucks are not Inferior
We have all heard that spike bucks have inferior genetics, and should be culled from herds. Time and time again we hear that a spike buck will never grow a big rack. Recently a 10 year study in South Texas proves that this theory is not true. This study was done on free-range deer by two renowned Texas Biologists, Dr. James C. Kroll, and Ben H. Koerth, from the Institute of Whitetail Deer Management and Research at Stephen F. Austin State University. Their research includes studies on Whitetail genetics, aging and judging bucks in the field, food plot refining and natural forage strategies. Past studies have been done on this topic and have shown that spikes don’t develop into decent bucks. The flaws in these studies are that they were done on penned animals, and social pressure has been proven to affect antler growth.

http://www.deercanada.com/Images/animals/spikeBuck.jpg
Can this?
http://www.deercanada.com/Images/animals/bigRack.jpg
Turn into this?

This break through 10 year study was done in the Brush Country of South Texas. The two biologists captured only buck fawns and yearling’s because they wanted to make sure they knew the age of the bucks. They would capture as many bucks as possible each year, and then recapture as many of the bucks each year after that, for the next eight or nine years. They started this study in 1997 and as of 2006, they captured marked and released a total of 884 buck fawns and 1,132 yearlings. The two biologists then divided all the captured bucks into two different categories; yearlings that had spike to 3 point antlers, and yearlings that had 4 or more points on their first set of antlers. Studies have shown that a buck does not reach maturity until the age of 4. In this study, by the time the bucks had reached the age of 4 ½, there was no significant difference in any of the antler measurements; no matter how big the buck was in his first year. The average size of the bucks at the age of 4 ½ in this study was 130 B&C inches. Ironically, the average B&C score of bucks taken each year in Texas is 131 inches. “It appears that from our data the spikes and 3-pointters are genetically equal at birth to multi-point yearlings for antler growth potential,” Dr. Kroll concludes. “It just takes some deer longer to show their capability.”


I hope you enjoyed this article, we found it very interesting

[tufferthandug]

Sorry--you all are taking way to much credit of how many animals are being taken and when.
This year in particular many deer are still up. They have hardly been hunted.

Right on the button.

[dana]

I have a hard time buying that. The question I have for ya, were these mule deer or whitetails? Texas is a far cry from a good representation of strong mule deer genetics. Another thing, ever think that capturing deer year after year would stress them all out so much that they all won't grow very good antlers??? And following deer for 4 1/2 years is hardly much of a study. What do you think those deer turned out to be if they were allowed to grow to the rip old age of 10 or 11???? Cutting the study off just as the bucks reach maturity isn't proving much. Do you really think a 130 class buck is a good representative mature deer in British Columbia??? I think not.

[Gateholio]

What purpose do 4 p restrictions serve. I suppose the "intended" purpose is to allow an open season with limited harvest, but is that what they truly do? And is it necessary when we have fewer hunters and more deer?:???:

[Will]

Sorry if I offended you, I was just using the same sarcasm you use so frequently
Now I'm sarcastic ?????? :shock:

No worries........I'm funnin, it's all good:wink:
If anyone gets offended on the intraweb they need a reality check !


What purpose do 4 p restrictions serve
I'm just a TV repairman :oops: so don't quote me on this but I'd suspect the only legitimate excuse for a 4 point or better season is to allow the little two's and threes to grow up(in theory anyways)........not too mention harvesting a Mature 4 point Mulie is abit tougher thus decreasing the success rates for the average schmo just out there to shoot a deer.

I'd guess it's simply a population booster (read: more bucks ! )

But who knows the real logic behind it...if any ? :-?

[Derek_Erickson]

If your a tv repair man will, then get me a damn fix for my free to air, NOW!

[Will]

If your a tv repair man will, then get me a damn fix for my free to air, NOW!
LMAO ! Actually I'm just a Garbage Man http://usera.imagecave.com/BCWILL/Smilies/onCrack.gif

[KodiakHntr]

Texas is a far cry from a good representation of strong mule deer genetics.

Want to rethink that? Texas sure ain't very far from Mexico...

And a LOT of 200"+ muleys come out of Mexico every fall....

[KodiakHntr]

And following deer for 4 1/2 years is hardly much of a study. What do you think those deer turned out to be if they were allowed to grow to the rip old age of 10 or 11???? Cutting the study off just as the bucks reach maturity isn't proving much. Do you really think a 130 class buck is a good representative mature deer in British Columbia??? I think not.

Now, I can see that you've killed some big bucks.
How many of 'em have you had aged? How old do you think these things get to be in BC?

I've killed a few big bucks myself, and seen a whack of big bucks killed over the years, (muleys even), but have yet to see one that is over 6 years old with all his teeth.

As to deer making it to 11 years old, regularly, I just don't buy that. Once a deer hits 5 or 6, he's almost used it all up...

[dana]

Texas only sees maybe 1 or 2 200 inch bucks drop every year and the state is almost as big as BC. The simple fact that they are close to Mexico doesn't mean they manage their mule deer pops very well. Look at Wa state. Only a handful of big bucks get killed there and yet they border us. High hunter harvest on young 4 1/2 year old deer seem to be the issue according to the study from Texas if I can read behind the lines a little. Another thing about Texas that most don't understand is there is very very little public land. Most of the State is eaten up by Private and most of the State seems to have adopted the 'High Fence' mentality and are trying to grow steroid whiteys with small bodies and big racks. If the actual study was with muleys, they only inhabit a small portion of texas that isn't private and no, they normally don't grow very big there.

[dana]

I killed a buck last year that was 9 1/2. I had watched and video'd him for 5 years and killed him in the 6th year. If you think big bucks are only 5 you obviously haven't spent the time afield watching deer year after year. I've got years worth of sheds off of individual bucks. If they only lived to 5, I'd have a hard time buying they start out at 180 in their first year. ;) I haven't aged the buck I killed this year but after watching him for several years now, I'd say he is at least 7 and he was in his prime.

[KodiakHntr]

You had the 9 1/2 year old aged? Jaw or tooth?

And, yes, I have watched deer year after year. The same deer, and the same with elk. Which with deer I've watched some spikes (id'ed by hair markings etc) grow into damn nice deer. 150"+ deer. Granted, more so with whitetails, than with muleys.

And I don't think I ever stated that they start out at 180 in their first year. Maybe a 5 year old 180 started out as a first year 10?
Put a tape to a 196" muley (gross) that was jaw aged at 4 1/2 years old...

My only observation was that I personally have a really hard time believing that deer regularly live PAST 11 years old. As from your post it would indicate that you think they make it well past 11 yrs old if they are still in their prime at 10 or 11. Unless I'm reading that wrong.

Which could be.

AT any rate, the buck in my avatar was 180 and change, and he was tooth aged at 5 1/2.

And incidentally, Texas is 71.8% of the size of BC, with 476% of the population of BC. Which translates to 30.8 people per square kilometer in Texas, as opposed to 4.7 people per square kilometer in BC. So that is kind of comparing apples to watermelons.

My only point there was is that there are some damn big bucks coming out of texas. So maybe they have some big deer there too.

[sparky300winmag]

O.K you guys are going on about 3 points .i was north of th loops for a total of 9 days in a span of 3 weeks .I saw approx 20 -two points ,2 -three points and ZERO four points,maybe 6 spikes.So where are all the 4 points.All the bucks we saw a week ago were with does and definately rutting,but no 4 points.???

[dana]

You must have misunderstood me. 11 years old is pretty much as old as deer in the wild get. That 9-10 year mark is when they are starting to regress. 6-8 is when deer are in their prime. Lots of young deer with great genetics are killed at 3-5 that can be really whoppers already. And I firmly believe no, they didn't start out as spikers. Consider that 190 class buck what he could have been if he had of lived to his prime? Like I stated above the Texas Study, they cut the study off to short probably because the bulk of the deer there don't live past 4 1/2 due to high hunter harvest rates and that's the one thing BC doesn't have. We have a ton of country with really low harvest rates. Lots of room for bucks to grow old and die of natural causes. We do have a harsher environment and high predator numbers, but lots of big bucks still beat the odds and reach that 9-11 year age mark.

And before you talk about Texas mule deer, maybe you should learn more about what they actually do have down there. Sorry, no, they do not kill many big bucks every year. Heck, even when it comes to wild whiteys, very very few of them as well. Like I stated before, they are of the culture of the High Fence Hunter. Heck, you can even go on a African Safari, killing all that Africa has to offer, all within the state of Texas. Soo, don't let the shows you see on TV deceive you. When you watch a big whitey hunt from Texas, the majority of the time, they are behind a High Fence.

[dana]

All the bucks you saw a week ago weren't rutting. They were 'wishing'. LOL! The rut was quick this year. Wham, Bam, thank ya Mam. The younger bucks don't get a piece of tail very often. They are inexperienced and think that maybe, just maybe if they keep on harrassing the does, they might get laid. Every once in a while, it works for them. The odd doe comes in late and the big boys are long gone into the thick crap resting up, waiting for winter to finally set in. So to answer your question on where the 4 points are, that is where they are.

[BCrams]

Now, I can see that you've killed some big bucks.
How many of 'em have you had aged? How old do you think these things get to be in BC?

I've killed a few big bucks myself, and seen a whack of big bucks killed over the years, (muleys even), but have yet to see one that is over 6 years old with all his teeth.

As to deer making it to 11 years old, regularly, I just don't buy that. Once a deer hits 5 or 6, he's almost used it all up...

How did you determine if the buck wasn't older than 6?

Muley bucks are just hitting their prime when they're 5-8 yrs old and start on the decline when they're >8 years old.

As dana mentioned - you can get some monster bucks when they're just 3-5 yr olds. I have a nice typical that was aged at 3 yrs back when they were still accepting teeth....I can only imagine what he would have been if he lived to be 6-8 years old.

[KodiakHntr]

And before you talk about Texas mule deer, maybe you should learn more about what they actually do have down there. Sorry, no, they do not kill many big bucks every year. Heck, even when it comes to wild whiteys, very very few of them as well. Like I stated before, they are of the culture of the High Fence Hunter. Heck, you can even go on a African Safari, killing all that Africa has to offer, all within the state of Texas. Soo, don't let the shows you see on TV deceive you. When you watch a big whitey hunt from Texas, the majority of the time, they are behind a High Fence.

Pretty sure I can do a little research as well as the next guy.

And yes, I realize that very little of the area down there is public land, and that most of the land down there is fenced. Difference between high fence and low fence though...

Sure would like to know how you get your information about what televised hunts are behind a high fence or not. Didn't realize you had insider knowledge of who hunts where and under what conditions. Or is this just speculation on your part? That the "majority" of these hunts are behind high fences.


Regardless, I'm not here to get in a pissing match about what state has what for critters. You stated that Texas doesn't have any big deer, I pointed out that Texas is close to Mexico, where they have VERY LARGE antlered mule deer, and that coincidentally, there are some big muleys shot down there every year. And some of them come from Texas.

If you want to hold on to your belief that a spike has inferior genetics, then so be it. Thankfully you aren't the one making decisions on what antler tine restrictions or lack there of there should be in this province.

[KodiakHntr]

How did you determine if the buck wasn't older than 6?



Aged with a jaw aging reference guide from a biologist buddy of mine. Based on tooth wear. Hardly definitive, but better than guessing.

[Tanya]

Tanya's hubby John again;

Sorry RR I wasn't quoting a scientific study. nor was that my intention.
As far as I know there hasn't been one done on wild deer in B.C.
I also saw the study results from Texas on whitetails but do not know if it relates to mule deer. My own experience is mainly with blacktails and some mule deer. In my experience bucks with small or tight antler configurations as young deer generally stay that way even though they grow or live to maturity. Before you jump on me for not being able to identify individual deer I live and work around them all year. I can also identify my cows visually without seeing ear tags, When you work with them all the time its not that hard. And as other posters here have said antler configuration remains similar and helps identify individual bucks. If you want to dispute this go ahead but you can ask anyone that spends a lot of time studying deer and I think they will tell you the same thing.
Getting back to the topic of this thread I still believe that single trait selection for removing part of the population will eventually alter that population.This is science and basic genetic theory. It may not be as apparent in lightly hunted populations but I believe will show up fairly quickly where hunting pressure is heavy. That big 3 point in the picture,as well as many that I have seen, looks very fit and in his breeding prime.
My whole point here is that the 4 point rule is not natural selection it is selection for a single trait. As Dana stated Texas is breeding ratty deer with big racks. I believe we are doing just the opposite.

[dana]

Aged with a jaw aging reference guide from a biologist buddy of mine. Based on tooth wear. Hardly definitive, but better than guessing.

You are saying that the 6 year old bucks barely have any teeth left and yet you are aging from tooth wear???? How the heck do you come up with the age. Read a book or 2 and actually get to know the species before you run at the mouth that deer only live to 5 or 6 in the wild. Get your teeth aged and don't guess from a tooth wear chart. The diet of mule deer across this great province vary greatly. Some feed is a lot harder on teeth wear than others.

[KodiakHntr]

You are saying that the 6 year old bucks barely have any teeth left and yet you are aging from tooth wear???? How the heck do you come up with the age. Read a book or 2 and actually get to know the species before you run at the mouth that deer only live to 5 or 6 in the wild. Get your teeth aged and don't guess from a tooth wear chart. The diet of mule deer across this great province vary greatly. Some feed is a lot harder on teeth wear than others.


Read the question buddy. He asked about one particular deer. I answered.
Spent a lot of time and $ doing research on deer in BC and abroad just for my own personal knowledge. And I haven't said that they only live to 5 or 6, just that by that time they are getting close to the end.
I have sent a LOT of teeth off to be aged, more so than the average hunter would be my guess. From my own deer and others' bucks.

Coming from someone who is spouting off at the beak that once a spike always a runt its kinda funny that you are telling me to read a book. That particular tidbit of information is about as useful as telling someone that a 45/70 is a real "brush buster".

[KodiakHntr]

Maybe I should of clarified that. That deer was aged from a chart that a friend of mine developed, from that area, from that region. With the teeth being sent off to be properly cut and counted as a verification. My bad, should of been more clear I suppose.

[BCrams]

Sounds like public information if its based on actual teeth being aged.

Can you provide a copy on here or at least send a pm with the bio's name so I can aquire the chart to have a look see.

[daycort]

I would like to see the chart as well.

[KodiakHntr]

I'll ask him if he wants to release his work to the public on internet forum.

[KodiakHntr]

For that matter, this sort of stuff isn't new, so I imagine you could google it and find similiar stuff.

[krazy]

You must have misunderstood me. 11 years old is pretty much as old as deer in the wild get. That 9-10 year mark is when they are starting to regress. 6-8 is when deer are in their prime. Lots of young deer with great genetics are killed at 3-5 that can be really whoppers already. And I firmly believe no, they didn't start out as spikers. Consider that 190 class buck what he could have been if he had of lived to his prime? Like I stated above the Texas Study, they cut the study off to short probably because the bulk of the deer there don't live past 4 1/2 due to high hunter harvest rates and that's the one thing BC doesn't have. We have a ton of country with really low harvest rates. Lots of room for bucks to grow old and die of natural causes. We do have a harsher environment and high predator numbers, but lots of big bucks still beat the odds and reach that 9-11 year age mark.

And before you talk about Texas mule deer, maybe you should learn more about what they actually do have down there. Sorry, no, they do not kill many big bucks every year. Heck, even when it comes to wild whiteys, very very few of them as well. Like I stated before, they are of the culture of the High Fence Hunter. Heck, you can even go on a African Safari, killing all that Africa has to offer, all within the state of Texas. Soo, don't let the shows you see on TV deceive you. When you watch a big whitey hunt from Texas, the majority of the time, they are behind a High Fence.


I think you are misreading the study. The study ran for 9 years not just 4.5 and in that time they sampled over 2000 deer. Each of those deer's antlers were measured at age 4.5 and the conclusion was that by that age there was no significant difference in antler size for those that started out as spikes over those that started out as 2 points plus (including 4's). If by age 4.5 antlers are equal regardless of how they started out then IMO there is no reason to believe that big differences will begin to appear after that time frame. I also don't see it as a stretch to believe that other members of the deer family would develop in the same manner.

Is it simply your opinion that spike mules in BC are gentically inferior or have I missed something in this thread (entirely possible) and you are basising your conclusion on some data or study?


One more thing on aging via tooth disection. I one year had the opportunity to wittness this "scientific" meathod first hand and all I can say is - well - don't put too much stock in the results you got back. At the time I saw it they had young summer students doing the work and there were many subjective calls on the number of 'seasons' that they saw on the teeth. Hopefully that was just one year and place but I heard that most of the aging was done that way.

[Will]

A spike is 1 year old, a 2 Point is 2, a 3 point is 3..........
They don't get to be 4x4's till thier 4th year ;-)

Some will stay 4x4's thier whole lives...others get better feed and get even more points thus becoming the Monstrous Nontypicals:cool:

If you don't believe me....hang around the Gunshops, this stuff is common knowledge among sportsmen:D

[GoatGuy]

O.K you guys are going on about 3 points .i was north of th loops for a total of 9 days in a span of 3 weeks .I saw approx 20 -two points ,2 -three points and ZERO four points,maybe 6 spikes.So where are all the 4 points.All the bucks we saw a week ago were with does and definately rutting,but no 4 points.???

Must not be any - head to a different region. :smile:

[Will]

Must not be any - head to a different region. :smile:
I think I mentioned this on another thread but I almost smeared a Nice 4x4 with the Frieghtliner on Westsyde road about 2 minutes from town a couple days ago !

This area is very well hunted to say the least;-)

I guess he was the last of his kind here...........:-(

[GoatGuy]

I think I mentioned this on another thread but I almost smeared a Nice 4x4 with the Frieghtliner on Westsyde road about 2 minutes from town a couple days ago !

This area is very well hunted to say the least;-)

I guess he was the last of his kind here...........:-(

How did you know??

That buck lives in a one kilmotre squared area but he knows the terrain and knows how to sneak around hunters. Learned that in university, majored in AVLTP (avoid hunters like the plague) - unfortunately he never had time to take the course on avoiding collisions with vehicles.

Silly deer

[dana]

"I've killed a few big bucks myself, and seen a whack of big bucks killed over the years, (muleys even), but have yet to see one that is over 6 years old with all his teeth.

As to deer making it to 11 years old, regularly, I just don't buy that. Once a deer hits 5 or 6, he's almost used it all up..."

So you aren't saying they only live to 6???? You are saying you've never seen one aged past 6 though right? So how many years does a buck have when he's almost used up? 1, 2, 3, 4?????

Just because you personallly haven't seen an old deer, don't mean they don't exist. Yes, I will state again, wild mule deer can live upwards of 11 years. They are in their prime at 6-8. If the study doesn't go beyond the 4 1/2 year mark then it's usesless.

As spikes, hmmm, let me think don't most Texan whitetail ranches cull all spikes from their ranches???:roll:

[KodiakHntr]

"I've killed a few big bucks myself, and seen a whack of big bucks killed over the years, (muleys even), but have yet to see one that is over 6 years old with all his teeth.

As to deer making it to 11 years old, regularly, I just don't buy that. Once a deer hits 5 or 6, he's almost used it all up..."

So you aren't saying they only live to 6???? You are saying you've never seen one aged past 6 though right? So how many years does a buck have when he's almost used up? 1, 2, 3, 4?????

Just because you personallly haven't seen an old deer, don't mean they don't exist. Yes, I will state again, wild mule deer can live upwards of 11 years. They are in their prime at 6-8. If the study doesn't go beyond the 4 1/2 year mark then it's usesless.

As spikes, hmmm, let me think don't most Texan whitetail ranches cull all spikes from their ranches???:roll:

Maybe I was typing too fast for you there when I wrote that. Here, I'll slow it down. I have yet to see one past 6 with all his teeth...Meaning a full complete tooth. Meaning worn pretty good. Meaning he didn't have 6 years of tooth left in his mouth...Does that work for you? And I never said that I've never seen one older. Just that I don't buy your statement that deer regularly live past 11 years old. And I do believe that you misread the study, as has been pointed out in another post.

And, as a matter of interest, up until 4-5 years ago many if not all Texas ranches culled spikes. Current knowledge however (obtained through actual studies that cost big dollars) shows that a bucks first year antlers have no bearing whatsoever on what he can produce in later years.



At any rate, I'm gonna let this go, as evidently I'm just looking for an arguement while I watch my town turn into the next Tumbler Ridge. Nothing productive will come of this thread, so giver, have the last word.

[Ridge-Runner]

Wow, good debate and a lot of information. My only comment is there is a difference between the scientific method, scientific theory and an idea or hypothesis. Its impressive that some are really digging into this topic and questioning others thoughts!!!!

Good work, RR

[WoodOx]

while I watch my town turn into the next Tumbler Ridge


Whats wrong with tumbler ridge? :D

[dana]

I'm guessing Kodiak is from McKenzie. With the mill closures, it certainly ain't going to be a fun place to live over the next little while. If ya can hold on, you'll probably see a turn around. Our little valley lost 2 mills and had a huge wildfire burning down homes and business' a few years ago. Things looked really grim. But now we seem to be Booming. Tons of new housing starts and housing prices that were never ever dreamed of a couple years ago.

[Fisher-Dude]

But now we seem to be Booming. Tons of new housing starts and housing prices that were never ever dreamed of a couple years ago.

That's all because, thanks to the posts on HBC, everyone knows there are 200" bucks behind every tree, so they are flocking to the area and snatching up every house that comes on the market.

[Wildfoot]

A person could assume that a deer's genetic makeup varies enough that some deer may not increase in points, but some may. Look at a tree - there is rarely only 3-4 phenotypes. Variation is the key to a healthy population. So some spikes might grow up to be 5x5's, some may grow up to be 2x2's. I dont think enough research has been done into the genome of deer to determine how genes affect antler size and growth.

I do think that the 4x4 season helps reduce the total amount of deer taken in a season, since a typical 4x4 will be older and more seasoned - thus making them more illusive to the hunter. I think antler restrictions may also increase hunter safety, as you are required to glass and count points before taking a shot... this makes it much less likely that you are going to accidentally shoot a cow, human or car instead of a deer.


Having only spent 2 days hunting for muleys around the loops this season I have to say that there are many 4 pointers or greater to be had. I got within shooting distance of 4 different 4 pointers after the 2 days. Sadly this was rifle shooting distance.. and I had a bow :(

[Mr. Dean]

I'll have to admit that I thought that there was ample #'s of 4 point and better bucks in the area I hunt in reg 3.

But them buggars are WARY.


Never seen a heavily antlered 3 point. Not once afield, this season.... It was like they didn't exist.

NEHAMMA. Did you guy's get your deer?

[NEEHAMA]

we seen a few dink fours and a big Hammer that gave us ample time to count but we didn't get a shot away. "conservation by incompetents"

[Mr. Dean]

we seen a few dink fours and a big Hammer that gave us ample time to count but we didn't get a shot away. "conservation by incompetents"

Lotta that goin around.... Especially in my camp!

http://forums.naturalparenting.com.au/images/smilie/busting.gif

[horshur]

I'm seeing some pretty nice 4 point or better the last few days guess some have been hiding well .......

[Gamebuster]

I don't believe spikes are "genetically inferior" for the most part....it is much more logical that spike antlers are reflective of the availability and quality of forage through the spring and summer. In productive yrs, I don't see many spikes and in less productive yrs I see more...I didn't see many this yr. A deer that is a spike this yr can grow into a big deer in future yrs if he gains access to high quality forage.

[Will]

I don't believe spikes are "genetically inferior" for the most part....it is much more logical that spike antlers are reflective of the availability and quality of forage through the spring and summer. In productive yrs, I don't see many spikes and in less productive yrs I see more...I didn't see many this yr. A deer that is a spike this yr can grow into a big deer in future yrs if he gains access to high quality forage.
I also tend to agree !
True Genes play a Huge part in what the Buck's Growth will be....the abundance/quality of their Food source is also a big factor in enabling them to reach thier Maximum potential during any given year IMO :smile:

Good Genes + Good Feed = Good Bucks:p