Counting Points Before You Shoot?

[dana]

I have to say I'm inspired by the young people here that keep on bringing up this point. What those young people don't understand is that this is nothing new. We've had the 4 point or better seasons in Region 3 for well over 15 years now and we've seen a constant problem with hunters not counting right, dumping a buck, seeing it's a 3, and walking away. This really is a waste of a precious resource. It might be that people are just too damn afraid of the CO's, thinking that they will go to jail over a honest mistake but the fact is the CO's aren't bad guys out to hammer ya if you honestly screw up. I personally know this for a fact, cause many years ago I made one of those mistakes. I was in my early 20's. I was trying to get my then 13 year old BIL on his first deer. I was his adult guardian. He had passed his CORE just as 4 point season started. We saw a ton of bucks but we were encountering absolute frustration trying to kill one. When I'd get a 4 point count the buck would move and mix with other deer. After watching buck after buck get away, I was discouraged cause I really wanted my BIL to get his first deer. Then on one fateful day, a big buck stood up in a cut and I told him to hammer it. When we walked up on it, I was absolutely sick. It was a big 3 with eyeguards. What would you do if you were in my situation? Would you walk away and pretend it never happened? Would you sneek it home, knowing a run in with the CO's would be highly unlikely? Or would you own up to your mistake, do the right thing, and report it to the CO? Well, I can tell ya I have pretty damn high ethics and I love hunting too much to throw it away over making a series of dumbass mistakes. I did the right thing and I called the CO. Used my 2 way truck radio on a repeater channel for all the world to hear. The CO was dispatched and my guts were turning as we waited for him to arrive. When he showed up he did the interviews. He then thanked me for calling him. He said most just walk away and leave the animal to rot. He asked me the question, "If I gave you a $100 fine, would that stop you from reporting something like this in the future." I said no, I still would report it. I ended up with a $100 fine, actually on the same ticket as what the police use for speeding tickets. The money goes to the HCTF. The fine was because I had instructed a minor poorly. The deer was taken to the butcher and the meat was given to a needy family in the community. The CO didn't even cut my BIL's tag. He allowed him to keep on hunting as he wanted to see him have success that year. The CO shook my hand and thanked me once again and let us go to hunt the evening hunt. That is what happens when you live up to your mistakes. Walking away from your mistake is just ChickenShit if you ask me. So knowing what the outcome for me was, would you do the same thing?

[MB_Boy]

Personally.....I would absolutely do the same thing. Having grown up with a father who worked for the Ministry I was always taught ethics to the highest level.

Hats off to you for owning up to your mistake as unfortunately there are "certain hunters" from all over this province who likely would not do the same. Unfortunately human nature is a funny thing in how someone will react when they have accidentally broken a law.

Sounds stupid but I think it is also how you were brought up and taught as a young lad/gal as to "right and wrong".

[Will]

So knowing what the outcome for me was, would you do the same thing?
Shoot shovel and shut-up...........:lol:

Of course that's a Bad Joke :wink:

Absolutely I would...if one is Man enough to Hunt and Kill then you should be Man enough to admit when you screw up ! :cool:

Report a Poacher ! ........Even if it's You ! ;)

[NaStY]

I would be scared s####less, but because I'm a firm believer in karma, i would do the same. Report it and take what i have, coming to me.

[Gerry]

I would definitely make the call, even if I was on my own. Why? Because I know when I got home my young daughter would be asking me what happened today, I would not want to lie to her and I would want her to learn something from my mistake.

[Fisher-Dude]

You did the right thing.

This past weekend I was the "eyes" with my Leicas for my buddy who still has a region 3 muley tag. We were watching a wide, tall buck for about 5 minutes before it turned and I could see 4 points on the driver's side. But, I told him not to shoot. He said he could see the 4th in his scope as well. After it turned TWO more times, and I could clearly see the 4th on the far side against the snow, as could he, I said "yeah it's a 4". He ended up missing the buck, but that's another story. This buck had a wide (28 inches?) and tall rack and looked big, but there was no way he would crack cap until we were both convinced it was legal. The passenger side only had 3, and the 4th on the far side was only about 2 1/2 inches long.

I'd rather let a buck/bull walk than make a mistake. If it ever happened that I did, I'd do exactly what Dana did.

[daycort]

i have a very guilty conscience (sp) and I probably would never sleep at nite if I didn't report something like that. I once reported a wrongly cancelled species tag, and when I was waiting for the co to phone me back I was getting sick outside my truck. He was very understanding and said I did the righth thing reporting the wrongly cancelled species tag. It was my only deer with my bow and I didn't want nothing bad to happen. Good going dana showing your son the right way to do things when a mistake happens, I am sure your hero dad status went up a notch.

[BCBear]

carry a set of these, they make a great christmas gift too:lol:

http://images.buycostumes.com/mgen/merchandiser/12830.jpg

as for me I've never dropped anything bigger than a two point...can't seem to find where the big guys live

[Chuck]

You can get off on many infractions of the laws with just a warning and at the discretion of the officer of course, but with regard to hunting and fishing they will always assess a monetary penalty, confiscate the game and perhaps disqualify you from further hunting/fishing for the season or sieze your equipment. I have wondered why this is, as it seems a bit harsh, as compared to a moving infraction for example which might involve the health and well being of someone or a life even. I've never got an answer to this, but feel that it (penalty) may contribute to the cover it up and shut up attitude. To what degree does admitting your error influence the penalty?
Now, imo this reply I wish to make should be in open chat, but the thread is in mainland bc. What to do, what to do? Pay a penalty?

[dana]

One lesson I walked away with that day was the need for patience. I had always grown up with the expressed 'get your ass going and shoot that buck' mentality that my ol'man instilled in me. Hunting for meat and hunting during those days in the okanagan, if you saw horn, that is all that mattered. Switching over to hunting Region 3 4 point or better seasons, taught me that you need to watch and wait. If that buck turns and runs before you are confident, then so be it. There is a need for good optics, especially when timber hunting. What the naked eye thinks is a branched antler, may very well be a branch from a tree. Binos are a must to examine the buck. A good varible scope (3-9) is also a must. When one hunts the 4 point or better seasons, really the idea of 'if it's brown it's down' needs to be dropped completely from one's thought pattern. The season is designed not for the meat hunter, but for the trophy hunter. The counting of points gives that animal that few extra seconds to escape, thus fewer animals get killed.

As for where this thread belongs, Region 3 is definately in the Mainland of BC and it has the longest season with 2 weekends still left. This thread is in response to the passionate young people that you guys can't seem to relate to. This is to get those that are thinking there is a 'Gold Rush in them thar hills' to think long and hard about what they are about to embark on if they head this way.

[bruin]

You can get off on many infractions of the laws with just a warning and at the discretion of the officer of course, but with regard to hunting and fishing they will always assess a monetary penalty, confiscate the game and perhaps disqualify you from further hunting/fishing for the season or sieze your equipment. I have wondered why this is, as it seems a bit harsh, as compared to a moving infraction for example which might involve the health and well being of someone or a life even. I've never got an answer to this, but feel that it (penalty) may contribute to the cover it up and shut up attitude. To what degree does admitting your error influence the penalty?
Now, imo this reply I wish to make should be in open chat, but the thread is in mainland bc. What to do, what to do? Pay a penalty?

I agree, is that the maximum penalty they can throw at you for that type of infraction? How long can they stop you from hunting?

[bsa30-06]

I would do exactly as Dana did.I would like to think that if a person accidently makes a mistake like this, that a Co would be understanding, and that the fact that he/she reported it would make the penalty a fine.I dont think there going to do themselves any favours by seizing the hunters equipment or applying heavier penalties.I think that kind of action will more than likely have people leaving it to rot.Mistakes are made and if they are reported and handled ethically by the hunter then the penalty should reflect this.Just my opinion.

[brotherjack]

I'd call it in, because that's the man I am - but I'd be REAL uptight until it was all said and done. I had a "run-in" with a CO a few years back that left me with way more fear of the uniform than respect for it. (though that said, there is one guy in particular around here that I respect as a straight shooting honest kind of guy, and if he showed up, I'd breathe easy).

[Elkhound]

Well no one really knows what they will do in some situations but I too would report myself. I would not be able to sleep nights if I did not.

As for where this thread belongs? Looks like a hunting thread and this is a good place for it. Not open chat:|

[Fisher-Dude]

Dana makes a good point about optics. The CO here caught a guy smuggling an illegal moose home this fall...the guy shot the moose with an open-sights 30/30 and had no binos. No wonder he killed an illegal moose, there is little chance of identifying a spike/fork bull without optics, in my opinion.

Should there be some sort of regulation that, when hunting in a point-restricted season, you must have optics?

[dunbartr]

I agree with everything Dana has said and would do the same by reporting the error. My brother and I both took 3x4's in Region 3 this year, mine just this past Sunday (see other thread for story). I had him in the scope broadside at 100yds for 30 seconds before we both confirmed he was four on the far side for sure.

[fozzy]

Good thread Dana! :) I would hope that most hunters would make the same decision and make the phone call. I too value my hunting season waaay too much to break any of the laws and have the privilege taken away from me.

A few years ago in the spring I bought a hunting liscence and spring bear tag. I didn't shoot a bear and never have(another story) later that fall I purchased another hunting liscence and deer tags. When I went to place the liscence in the zip lock bag I quickly realized I was in posession of two liscences at the same time which is illegal. Being that the CO lived just down the street I knocked on his door and explained what I had done. He took the bear tag and first liscence and in a couple weeks a friendly letter explaining that it was illegal and not to do it again.

If you make a mistake, stand up and take your lumps.

[horshur]

It is my opinion that they should get rid of the point restriction regs. It is no easy task for 50 year plus eyes to see on a cloudy day in November regardless of good optics and many an "Old Guy" is more than discouraged. I have heard it first hand for not only that mobility has become an issue they just cannot go and pound the hills like they once did and they definitely worry about getting an animal very far from a road.......I think point restrictions are bad for hunting in general.

[KevinB]

I just experienced the results of this first hand, the weekend before last. We were out scouting around in the middle of the day up on Knouff Mountain north of Kamloops, and found a wounded buck. After managing to keep from doing what was my first and very strong impulse (shoot the wounded deer to put it out of it's misery), I did a quick points count and realized it was only a small 3-point. We called the CO (luckily we had our yuppy cell phones with us) to ask for permission to kill it, since I didn't think it would look very good to shoot it and then call it in. But as I had figured he said he couldn't let me do that which was pretty understandable. He came out within an hour, had a look, and then we dispatched the deer. It turns out someone had shot it through the brisket and both front legs, which were both completely blown apart and I had the very unhappy experience of watching it trying to push itself around on it's hind legs for an hour. Pretty hard to hold off from shooting it. The CO was a very stand-up guy, he offered me the meat with a possession permit, and even helped me gut it and drag it up the hill to the truck. He was pretty thankful to us for calling him out and staying on the deer, and he even said that if no-one had been available he would have given me permission over the phone to put it down.

By the evidence, it looks like someone saw bone, shot the buck, followed it up, and then realized it was a 3-point, at which point they didn't even have the common decency to kill it. Instead, they thought only of themselves and walked away, leaving the buck to lay there with its busted leg bones jammed into the rocks, to die a pretty slow death.:evil::evil: I have no problem with someone making an honest mistake, it can happen to anyone. But to walk away from a wounded deer...well If that "hunter" is reading this I hope you feel like a piece of cr*p and next time you'll at least have the decency to put it out of it's misery. :evil:

[talver]

I just experienced the results of this first hand, the weekend before last. We were out scouting around in the middle of the day up on Knouff Mountain north of Kamloops, and found a wounded buck. After managing to keep from doing what was my first and very strong impulse (shoot the wounded deer to put it out of it's misery), I did a quick points count and realized it was only a small 3-point. We called the CO (luckily we had our yuppy cell phones with us) to ask for permission to kill it, since I didn't think it would look very good to shoot it and then call it in. But as I had figured he said he couldn't let me do that which was pretty understandable. He came out within an hour, had a look, and then we dispatched the deer. It turns out someone had shot it through the brisket and both front legs, which were both completely blown apart and I had the very unhappy experience of watching it trying to push itself around on it's hind legs for an hour. Pretty hard to hold off from shooting it. The CO was a very stand-up guy, he offered me the meat with a possession permit, and even helped me gut it and drag it up the hill to the truck. He was pretty thankful to us for calling him out and staying on the deer, and he even said that if no-one had been available he would have given me permission over the phone to put it down.

By the evidence, it looks like someone saw bone, shot the buck, followed it up, and then realized it was a 3-point, at which point they didn't even have the common decency to kill it. Instead, they thought only of themselves and walked away, leaving the buck to lay there with its busted leg bones jammed into the rocks, to die a pretty slow death.:evil::evil: I have no problem with someone making an honest mistake, it can happen to anyone. But to walk away from a wounded deer...well If that "hunter" is reading this I hope you feel like a piece of cr*p and next time you'll at least have the decency to put it out of it's misery. :evil:

KevinB dude you made one mistake this person who shot this deer isnt a hunter he or she is a POACHER Big difference. Its people like that that give ethical hunter a bad name.

[hunter1947]

Yes i would do the same thing as you Dana. Just think of it this way if you did try and sneak the illegal animal out of the bush to your home or to another place ,If you were caught the punishment would be way higher. As for the meat it wouldn't go to the needy ,and how could anyone live with them self's knowing that they just left an animal in the bush to rot ,i know i couldn't. I know of a few people that have shot an animal that didn't have the legal points on it and they had the same treatment from the CO that you got. Just one thing you got to remember when counting points ,if your not sure ,DON"T shoot. This point thing was flustrating for me on elk this year ,i new that a few proubly had six on the one side ,i didn't squeeze the trigger because i wasn't 100% sure. Thanks for this post Dana ,will open up peoples eyes.http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/images/icons/icon14.gif.http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/images/icons/icon7.gif.

[sealevel]

After dealing with a CO here in salmon arm about a set of illigal moose antlers . i am not sure i would risk my hunting privaleges by turning myself in to him. Our FG club needed a set of moose antlers for the moose horn draw at our banquet. I heard the CO had a set so i called him he said we could use them . but couldn`t have them. i explained we would drill a 100 holes in each he didn`t care as long as they came back. no one could gain with illegal killed game. he was the most ignorant and rude person i have ever tried to deal with. he has since moved on thank god.

[KevinB]

KevinB dude you made one mistake this person who shot this deer isnt a hunter he or she is a POACHER Big difference. Its people like that that give ethical hunter a bad name.

No mistake - you'll notice the sarcastic quotation marks around the word hunter. Anyone who would walk away from a badly wounded animal without killing it needs to have their head checked.

At first I tried to give them the benefit of the doubt, maybe they were just piss-poor trackers and had lost the trail, but this deer was pretty easy to find, they shot it 20 feet from a road and would have had a pretty clear view of where it ran to. Good blood trail, tracks, etc. They just plain left it to die.:evil:

[GoatGuy]

It is my opinion that they should get rid of the point restriction regs. It is no easy task for 50 year plus eyes to see on a cloudy day in November regardless of good optics and many an "Old Guy" is more than discouraged. I have heard it first hand for not only that mobility has become an issue they just cannot go and pound the hills like they once did and they definitely worry about getting an animal very far from a road.......I think point restrictions are bad for hunting in general.


Not even a sniff?

[Sharkey]

I would do the exact same thing you did. I too believe that the "right thing to do" is always the right thing to do. Just a few months ago, I traveleld to kamloops to Wholesale Sports and bought a new rifle, complete with scope. I paid my bill (well... VISA paid for it) and when I returned home to Vernon, I looked again at the bill as it seemed to be somewhat lower than I expected. I noticed that they had completely missed my brand new scope on the till reciept. I called the store the next day and explained the situation, and had them charge my VISA over the phone for the mistake. In return for my honesty, I recieved a $50 Gift Certificate in the mail with a nice thank-you card.
~D

[Fisher-Dude]

Not even a sniff?

Get on it Mr Politically Correct! Tell us how you really feel! :tongue:

[CooperSscat]

I would do the exact same thing you did. I too believe that the "right thing to do" is always the right thing to do. Just a few months ago, I traveleld to kamloops to Wholesale Sports and bought a new rifle, complete with scope. I paid my bill (well... VISA paid for it) and when I returned home to Vernon, I looked again at the bill as it seemed to be somewhat lower than I expected. I noticed that they had completely missed my brand new scope on the till reciept. I called the store the next day and explained the situation, and had them charge my VISA over the phone for the mistake. In return for my honesty, I recieved a $50 Gift Certificate in the mail with a nice thank-you card.
~D

Glad you paid for your product-in full-Sharkey! A lot of people could be tempted not settle up as you did.

Hunters always acquire sight of a potential animal(eyes, binos, or spotting scope), count points(not with firearm scope), confirm it's legal(not with firearm scope) and then squeeze. If there's an oops then do the right thing and report your error.

Great post Dana!

Jeremy

[BCrams]

Make a mistake - do the honourable thing and report it.

[325]

Wasn't there a CO who illegally shot a cow bison, instead of a bull up near FSJ a few years ago?? I heard through the grape-vine that he wrote an article in the newspaper about it, stating that he would be more understanding of hunting mistakes in the future.

[Bigbuckadams]

Great post, I would also report myself for any misjudgement in regards to point count. No point in pulling the trigger unless you are sure. That is the bottom line. Good optics are a must and if there is any question, let the animal walk. Simple.
BBA

[Upearly]

As I read this thread, I wonder if people really would be as noble and honest as they say they would be about reporting a mistake. It's easy to say now but one may feel differently if your firearms, truck and/or future hunting privledges were really at risk over an honest mistake. When you're alone in the bush it's too easy to turn and walk away with only your own conscience to face. Easier for some than others. My hat's off to Dana for setting a fine example for his young partner. I like to think that I would do the same.

[GoatGuy]

Long and the short of it with CO's

Make a mistake and report it you'll get
a) a written warning
or
b) a relatively small fine ($100-$200)

Disclaimer: Mistakes don't include shooting a decoys, having a loaded gun in your truck or shooting out your window. Those are done with intent.


Now, make a mistake and don't report it you'll land yourself in a court room or at the least you'll be paying some whopper fines.

That's the difference between a hunter and a poacher.

[Will]

That's the difference between a hunter and a poacher.
Bingo ! 8)

[dana]

Upearly,
I think the point of this thread is to show that you will not be loosing your rig, you rifle and your hunting privilages if you are honest and report your mistake. Everyone is human. Everyone has the ability to mess up. Not everyone has the balls to own up to their mistakes though. The fact that the CO's deal with tons of calls each year reporting 3 point after 3 point left to rot proves that there is something drastically wrong with hunters now adays.

I do agree with Horshur, these 4 point seasons are pointless. Why do we have them? So we can be overrun by deer and make a bunch of hunter's discouraged that they can't seem to get the job done? Issues like the ageing demographic should be addressed. As a trophy hunter, I used to be all for these seasons. But you know what? I'm still gonna kill big ol' mature bucks regardless if the season is 'any buck' or '4 point or better'. These seasons are hurting our hunter recruitement. I can tell you for a fact as a father with young kids learning to hunt, there is no way in hell I'd take my kids out hunting during a late season point restriction season. Way way to frusterating.

[horshur]

Long and the short of it with CO's

Make a mistake and report it you'll get
a) a written warning
or
b) a relatively small fine ($100-$200)

Disclaimer: Mistakes don't include shooting a decoys, having a loaded gun in your truck or shooting out your window. Those are done with intent.


Now, make a mistake and don't report it you'll land yourself in a court room or at the least you'll be paying some whopper fines.

That's the difference between a hunter and a poacher.

There has been some damn nice people who have made a mistake panicked and abandoned a otherwise fine animal that would have made a great roast for the family and an even better story for the children or grandchildren......very good people who can't bear to make a mistake and have. The managers of game animals need to get back to the roots of why people hunt.........to eat. Horns make poor soup.
I have never found an abandoned three point that was even close to large and I have found many.
Hunters need to push for more realistic expectations of their purpose.

[browningboy]

When we hunt we wear our glasses and resemble bubbles (trailer park boys), we can count points from a mile away!LOL
Anyhow joking aside, I found moose and deer on serveral different occasions that were shot and weren't legal and left in the bush and its disappointing to say the least. I've let a few nice animals walk as I just couldn't tell, but if it did actually happen my gut feeling says that 65% of people would leave it and the other 25% would fess up (not pointing fingers etc.) depending on location etc.
Of course everyone on this thread would fess up or would they?? it is the internet and we are canucks fans!LOL
Anyhow poachers and snaggers make me sick!:-x

[Walksalot]

My son and I had a bull elk come into our bugling without saying a word. It emerged not fifty yards away out of a draw. We seen it for a total of a couple of seconds and it stopped behind a bush and looked at us. It had us flat footed and one can't count that fast. Although the rack was busy you can't put it on the ground and then count the points. We both had binos but had no chance to use them. The bull watched us for a bit and then fled.
IF YOU ARE NOT SURE THEN DON"T SHOOT.
I think the 4/6 point mule deer/elk season is an excellent wildlife management tool and it promotes some respectable animals in a species population.

[BIGHUNTERFISH]

I think we already have a very generous any buck season in most regions through out the province,if you are looking for meat ,getting a few young bucks in Oct. is not very difficult.When there are antler restrictions you just have to be dam sure of your target,no diffrent than shooting a Billy goat instead of a nanny,or making sure your 3/4 leh ram is legal ,or the blackbear has no cubs etc,thats what build good hunting skills is all about.There are slob hunters poachers whatever you want to call them all over the place,taking away the antler restriction doesnt make these guys disappear because many will shoot a doe for fun,but tougher penalities and zero tolerance on unaccetable offenses may help.

[Jetboater]

Wow this is a great topic...been there done that... We had a great chat with a conservation officer from cranbrook this year about how many 5 point elk are self reported... out of 100 elk they say that 4-5 are self reported...

6 years ago while elk hunting the kootenays... I got into a couple bulls fight for the herd of cows they were constantly sparring as I got closed there was a 6x5 and a 5x5 working for the herd... as I got to within 150 yds the elk started to drift into the timber slowly and I had to take the shot... the two bulls were close together as they worked up the timber edge... the 6x5 in front and the 5x5 in the rear... from the time I put my binos down from confiming the bulls the 5x5 passed the the 6 point... I thought I had shot the 6x5 when I walked up... needless to say the sickness I felt was pretty overbearing... I was ain a spot that nobody would have ever found the bull and I could have walked away...
as soon as I realized what I had done I had made my decision,,, I hiked my way out... hoped into the truck and told the camp what happened... you truly know who your freinds are and who supports you... I cut my tag and headed to invermere.. shaking like a leaf in a strong wind walking into the invermere conservation office I sat down with the officer who routinely came to our camp each year... officers name was Richard... Richard asked me what happened, wrote me a fine for 100.00 which I paid on my way back home... and asked me to retrieve the elk... which he told me would go to the elderly and the needy in invermere... I spent 9 hrs packing this bull out with my Dad and his partner while the rest in camp wanted to condem me for making a mistake and reporting it... in the end we never hunted with the others in camp again... Richard came to camp that even and picked up thae bull... there was many lessons learned that day... especially about being sure of what you are shooting...

Fast forward to this year..... My younger brother had never killed an elk, hes been in on quite a few bulls but never got the chance to kill one... he hunted hard and on day eight called in a 6x5 he thought was legal... 90 yds away he dumped it... walked up to it and realized it was very very close to not legal... he imediatly came and found us as we were working our way down the river bottom and told me what happened... we headed up there... I had a good look and told him it was too short... he knew what he had to do.. he asked if I would go with him to the conservation office... this time we gutted and hauled the bull out... marked his tag and wrote in the licence the intent to report,,had the camp sign his licence and the next morning went to invermere wih the bull... no CO was available that day but they would send one out for thanks giving (not the greatest day for a CO to show Pity)the conservation officer saw that our whole family was there and every memeber from the 4 camps around where there to see what was going to happen...my younger brother was pretty upset but realized he had made a mistake and was willing to take whatever was dealt in his direction... the conservation officer had about a 1/2 hr talk with Chris... told him to get some better optics... wrote him a fine and told him to enjoy his Thanksgiving with his Family... he wrote up a letter to transport the elk home without any issues and proceeded on his way...
conservation officers will not condemm those who stand up and take responsibility for there actions... they will commend you for feeling obligated to do the right thing...

The bull my brother shot was 7/8 of an inch... had we not reported it and gone through a road block he would have been fined and probalbly lost his hunting privledges for a few years... instead he gets to enjoy eating elk...

unfortunately it is not the way someones first bull elk should be taken... and he does have a hard time hanging the antlers with pride... but he made the choice to pull the trigger and he has to live with it....

[TIKA 300]

NEVER in my life have i seen a CO around the Fraser Valley in hunting season,so last fall out Harrison east i walk up a new cut block and spook a deer coming up the bank,said deer bolts with me only seeing ARSS end than gone.I sneak a ways up the road to see silloute standing at tree line looking back @ me,so up come the optics and for 5 or 6 minutes i watched this deer,no matter how hard i tried to put on antlers i couldnt tell (looking to the west with fog blowing up hill than down hill @ dusk) I WILL ADMIT the thought ran thru my head, NO ONE WOULD EVER EVER KNOW,but the little angel on my shoulder reminded me that i HOLD MY INTGRITY MUCH HIGHER THAN THAT,so with that my integrity is still intact!!!!!! ITS A MUCH APPRECIATED POST DANA !!!! THANKS TK

[mainland hunter]

I shot an elk once that was a 7X5 counted twice and bang. the bull took off and i found him a short distance away. he had fallen with his 5 pt side up and 2 pts on the otherside burried neatly into the dirt. looked so much like a 5X5. My heart sank and I was ready to quit hunting for a few seconds as i stared in disbelief. I told my buddy who was with me that we'll gut him and go report it. I grabbed the antlers to twist up and the 2 pts emerged and i dont think ive been happier. I know i would report because its the right thing to do. and good for those here who have gone and done so after an honest mistake.

[BIGHUNTERFISH]

CO's are just like border guards,cops, and anyone in law enforcement.There are good ones and there are AZZ holes.I know a guy who shot a beauty buck a few years ago and 1/4'd it and skinned it out ,one 1/4 was blood shot so he boned it out and packed the 3 1/4's out and the caped out rack .He made a mistake and cut the balls and penis off when he skinned the buck out. He drove through the gamecheck near Cache creek and told the young Co before he asked that he mistakenly cut off the balls and penis.The young very rude Co demanded he take the buck out of the truck ,he obliged and laid all the pieces out next to the Highway and everything fit like a jigsaw puzzle.At this point he left and attended other vehicles because it was getting busy,for the next two hours my buddy waited as the deer sat in the sun and non hunters looked in the disgust at the deer next to the road.Finally this Co comes back with another guy and they load the deer in the back of a co truck.He then proceeds to through the book at him with the max fines and told him that he wouldnt be getting his deer back.I would like to state this buck was a very big 4 x4 shot in an any buck season.My friend left the scene in disbelief and never did get the deer or rack back.

[CooperSscat]

NEVER in my life have i seen a CO around the Fraser Valley in hunting season,so last fall out Harrison east i walk up a new cut block and spook a deer coming up the bank,said deer bolts with me only seeing ARSS end than gone.I sneak a ways up the road to see silloute standing at tree line looking back @ me,so up come the optics and for 5 or 6 minutes i watched this deer,no matter how hard i tried to put on antlers i couldnt tell (looking to the west with fog blowing up hill than down hill @ dusk) I WILL ADMIT the thought ran thru my head, NO ONE WOULD EVER EVER KNOW,but the little angel on my shoulder reminded me that i HOLD MY INTGRITY MUCH HIGHER THAN THAT,so with that my integrity is still intact!!!!!! ITS A MUCH APPRECIATED POST DANA !!!! THANKS TK

Good on you for not dropping a MU 2 doe TIKA 300!

I've been hunting for over 15 years and I've only been checked in the bush 3 times by COs.(2005 MU 5-3, 2006 MU 2-3, 2007 MU 3-28) All three times the COs were professional and courteous while they checked my licensing and firearms over. They answered all my questions and gave me insightful updates on the game I was hunting. I was glad to have crossed paths and been checked over by the COs. I hope their presence in the bush is increasing(CO numbers still declining????) to thwart continued poaching.

Jeremy

[CooperSscat]

CO's are just like border guards,cops, and anyone in law enforcement.There are good ones and there are AZZ holes.I know a guy who shot a beauty buck a few years ago and 1/4'd it and skinned it out ,one 1/4 was blood shot so he boned it out and packed the 3 1/4's out and the caped out rack .He made a mistake and cut the balls and penis off when he skinned the buck out. He drove through the gamecheck near Cache creek and told the young Co before he asked that he mistakenly cut off the balls and penis.The young very rude Co demanded he take the buck out of the truck ,he obliged and laid all the pieces out next to the Highway and everything fit like a jigsaw puzzle.At this point he left and attended other vehicles because it was getting busy,for the next two hours my buddy waited as the deer sat in the sun and non hunters looked in the disgust at the deer next to the road.Finally this Co comes back with another guy and they load the deer in the back of a co truck.He then proceeds to through the book at him with the max fines and told him that he wouldnt be getting his deer back.I would like to state this buck was a very big 4 x4 shot in an any buck season.My friend left the scene in disbelief and never did get the deer or rack back.

Ok that's terrible.

At a butchers this fall I saw a couple of hunters just in front of me with a headless, sex organ free skinned animal. I watched them with the butcher's assistant fill in the appropriate details, get the animal on the hook in and into the cooler. When it was my turn to get my animal checked in and hung I asked the butcher's assistant if it's common practice for them to accept animals with no sex ID. And she said yeah sometimes. I couldn't believe it. I'm hoping they and the others had the appropriate licences or leh draw cards or whatever to prove they were legally harvested animals. If not they are risking a bunch by transporting potentially poached meat!

Jeremy

[Sitkaspruce]

CO's are just like border guards,cops, and anyone in law enforcement.There are good ones and there are AZZ holes.I know a guy who shot a beauty buck a few years ago and 1/4'd it and skinned it out ,one 1/4 was blood shot so he boned it out and packed the 3 1/4's out and the caped out rack .He made a mistake and cut the balls and penis off when he skinned the buck out. He drove through the gamecheck near Cache creek and told the young Co before he asked that he mistakenly cut off the balls and penis.The young very rude Co demanded he take the buck out of the truck ,he obliged and laid all the pieces out next to the Highway and everything fit like a jigsaw puzzle.At this point he left and attended other vehicles because it was getting busy,for the next two hours my buddy waited as the deer sat in the sun and non hunters looked in the disgust at the deer next to the road.Finally this Co comes back with another guy and they load the deer in the back of a co truck.He then proceeds to through the book at him with the max fines and told him that he wouldnt be getting his deer back.I would like to state this buck was a very big 4 x4 shot in an any buck season.My friend left the scene in disbelief and never did get the deer or rack back.

You do have some recourse if you think you have been treated unfairly. Instead of paying the fines, attend court and plead not guilty. Then you get a chance to have your say. Of course you have to be sure you are in the right and have been treated unfairly. Not leaving the sex on is a no-no, and going to court to complain how you were mistreated will not wash with the judge. You broke the law and that is it. (you used as a tense, not talking directly to you BHF)

The only thing that I have done was buy two moose tags, dumb a$$, and when I realized it, I called the CO's and they had me stop by the next time I was by to have them cancel one and write on it. They said I had already paid the fine by buying two tags for one animal, dumb a$$!!!

Have had some close calls with sheep, which are the toughest to gauge and you need lot of patience and the will power to hold off if not sure. Elk are also tough especially in the timber, along with timber mulies. I hate the point restrictions, but also understand why some are in effect.

Good post Steve and a lot of interesting replies.

[Sharkey]

This is no different than shooting/wounding an animal and not making every effort possible to find it. We OWE it to the animals we hunt, to be responsible for our actions and to follow through with respect and dignity.
~D

[GoatGuy]

My take on antler restrictions

1) From a recruitment perspective they're terrible. Most hunters have an extremely tough time finding a 4pt nevermind dragging a 10 yr old kid around in September looking for a 4pt and have it stand around for long enough to get setup and get a shot off. Anybody who's taken a 10 yr old out knows this can be very challenging.

Furthermore do we want to create more trophy hunters? That's exactly what these seasons not only encourage but force onto young hunters. So, we're gonna end up with less hunters and a greater percentage will be trophy hunters. That'll go over like a lead ballon with the public.

2) Most hunters are meat hunters and are only looking for a legal animal - - being ANY BUCK. Most hunters now focus their effort in October for any buck season which limits the amount of time they spend in the bush. They plan 'a' hunting trip around seasons not around time off. For many this means a couple weekends or one trip. They'll look for seasons where they can hunt muleys and wt's at the same time or when they can shoot any buck or multiple deer in one trip. Often this time frame is widdled down to a few short weeks of true multiple opportunity or any buck. In other areas there is not even an any buck season.

3) We've created 'trophy' hunters who really aren't 'trophy' hunters. They're hunters who now sometimes run into a 4pt, might shoot a 150 or 160 class muley every other year or once in 5, and figure the seasons are REQUIRED so that they can stock up their trophy room.

Some figure 'trophy' hunting is associated with being able to drive out into a field and blast a 190 class muley from the truck. Looking for the buck of a lifetime should be just that - what's the fun in shooting a 170" wt behind a locked gate off a bait pile every year?

These are the same people who 15 years ago were out shooting any buck because that's what they found. True trophy hunters will always find good bucks and bulls regardless of the season.

Futhermore trophy hunting is likely the greatest contributor to the malaise and distaste for hunting in the public eye. Sure there are always those looking for a bigger buck and there's nothing wrong with that BUT why are we catering to and encouraging them?

4) We're supposed to be 'needed' to manage wildlife and an integral part of conservation. Today we have conflicts with wildlife all over the province because we aren't making that happen so really what's our contribution and why are we needed?



Unecessary antler restrictions, which occur for mule deer and wt deer throughout most of the province, elk and moose in others, punish EVERYONE but those who have the time and money who are looking for a big buck or bull. They do nothing for recruitment or retention for the overwhelming majority of hunters who ONLY want to be able to hunt and fill the freezer.

Granted in some areas and at some times antler restrictions are required but in many spots and times they simply aren't and are only maintained by a few yellers that want them for themselves.

We've been catering to a couple hunters who want big animals for too long - all that's done is killed hunters off year after year and for what? So someone can see a couple 4pts or maybe shoot a mature buck? At what cost?

It's time to get back to why people hunt. It's because they like the opportunity to go out and have an reasonable expectation at being successfull ---- they're out because they want to put meat in the freezer.

With the current frame of mind we'll be overrun with deer and down to 40,000 hunters in no time.

Guess what kind of a force hunters will be then?

People complain about the anti's wrecking hunting on a regular basis - most of the time we're the ones hindering ourselves.

Time to start looking forward at how we can ensure hunting survives, not how many people we can keep out of our 'secret spots' and how many critters we can pile into our trophy rooms.


Good thread. :lol:

[hunter1947]

Very good right up GoatGuy ,i agree with you on what you just stated ,very ,very good wording ,thanks for the post. This right up should have been on a new post. :cool:.

[Walksalot]

Most of the antler restrictions were implemented after the devastating winter of a few years ago. In some areas the populations have rebounded and in others they have not. Once a season has been altered to compensate for a decline in a species population getting the season back to the original status is a difficult thing to do. One must convince the biologists there is a sufficient population to alter the season back to any antler. With the shrinking budgets the biologists simply don't have the funds to conduct this type of research.

[CanuckShooter]

Long and the short of it with CO's

Make a mistake and report it you'll get
a) a written warning
or
b) a relatively small fine ($100-$200)

Disclaimer: Mistakes don't include shooting a decoys, having a loaded gun in your truck or shooting out your window. Those are done with intent.

.

Your 'long and short of it' isn't always the outcome you can expect. A few years ago we got permission over the phone to dispatch a large mulie buck that had a badly broken leg..with instructions to just field dress it and stop in at the Ft. St. John office so it could be inspected, have the antlers removed, a permit issued and we could give the meat to a family we knew at home that could use the meat.

We ended up being interrogated for two hours in the Ft. St. John office..until the CO informed me that I should be aware that anything I said to him after that point may be used against me in court!!! Imagine a poacher that phones for permission and then actually brings the animal into your office for a permit?!!?? He had to have been the biggest dumb-azz I have ever had to deal with in my life! To make a long story short we got the permit...they didn't take the antlers...and a needy family got the animal..and we got a very different view on dealing with 'authority figures'.

In my opinion the 'penalty' for making a mistake and reporting it should be clear and consistent...not up to the discretion of the CO in each case. If that were the case I would bet more 'mistakes' would be reported because there wouldn't be the fear of being charged, dragged through court, publicly embarrassed...etc etc etc.

[KevinB]

Good post Goat Guy. I really have mixed feelings about the point restrictions. I see exactly what you describe, in fact I even plan a lot or most of my own hunting just that way - I'd like to shoot a big buck as much as the next guy, but in the end, we live off of what goes into the freezer. Points restrictions should only be in place where they are definitely needed. Which is a whole other argument...

[BCrams]

I'd like to see the removal of point restrictions. For the most part, we do not need them. For those who wish to hunt for big bucks or bulls, they will continue to do so and be successful.

One of the most perplexing point restrictions in the province which is beyond me - is the 7-B whitetail buck point restriction?!?!? There is absolutly no need for it.

If it were me, I would reinstate the any buck for whitetails.

[KevinB]

In my opinion the 'penalty' for making a mistake and reporting it should be clear and consistent...not up to the discretion of the CO in each case. If that were the case I would bet more 'mistakes' would be reported because there wouldn't be the fear of being charged, dragged through court, publicly embarrassed...etc etc etc.

I think you hit the nail on the head there CanuckShooter. We've all heard "stories" of some power-tripping CO going out of their way to be an azz just because they can, even though in reality this is pretty rare. Maybe lots of those here who say they would report an honest mistake and take their lumps, would regret doing so if they encountered one of these who nailed them for everything under the sun. Discretion is a very important tool for any law enforcement officer but there's always a few that don't use it very well, and there is a perception out there that these types are a lot more common than they actually are.

[KevinB]

One of the most perplexing point restrictions in the province which is beyond me - is the 7-B whitetail buck point restriction?!?!? There is absolutly no need for it.

If it were me, I would reinstate the any buck for whitetails.

Do you think that maybe the "gov" sees whitetails as a great game species and is more than happy to see them spread? I always wonder about this. :confused: I also don't get the whitetail point restrictions. Heck, even in the Okanagan, pounded with hunters with a super long any buck WT season and a whack of anterless tags, the WT's are going strong and expanding their range steadily.

[Fisher-Dude]

Thanks Goat Guy. Now I don't have to type out all that! :biggrin:

So, it's up to everyone on here to work through your clubs to get some reasonable seasons back in place for hunters.

[BCrams]

Do you think that maybe the "gov" sees whitetails as a great game species and is more than happy to see them spread? I always wonder about this. :confused: I also don't get the whitetail point restrictions. Heck, even in the Okanagan, pounded with hunters with a super long any buck WT season and a whack of anterless tags, the WT's are going strong and expanding their range steadily.

The 'bright' biologist in Fort St John who implemented the point restriction for whitetail bucks did it purely for trophy hunting.

[Sitkaspruce]

Hey Bucks

Another one that boggles my mind is the WT season closing on the 20th in 7A. What is up with that, an ideas?

[Fisher-Dude]

Hey Bucks

Another one that boggles my mind is the WT season closing on the 20th in 7A. What is up with that, an ideas?

That's as STUPID as region 8 WT closing on Nov 24 when right next door in region 3 it's open til December 10, and region 4 until Nov 30. The region 8 bio needs to check out that retirement bridging scheme so that someone who cares about providing hunting opportunity, instead of building unsustainable WT populations, can take over. And why not bring back the 2 WT buck/1 MD and 1 WT buck bag limit, that was scrapped "until the populations rebounded" after the mid-90s winters? Helllllooooo, the population is higher than it has ever been, and there are half the hunters!!! :mad:

All in my humble opinion, of course! :wink:

[KevinB]

The 'bright' biologist in Fort St John who implemented the point restriction for whitetail bucks did it purely for trophy hunting.

Figures. Where in the mandate of the MOF does building trophy hunting opportunities fit? Oh right it doesn't...

[KevinB]

"until the populations rebounded"


Sounds like the tolls on the Coquihalla....insert "until the highway is paid for"...just the same. :roll:

[GoatGuy]

Most of the antler restrictions were implemented after the devastating winter of a few years ago. In some areas the populations have rebounded and in others they have not. Once a season has been altered to compensate for a decline in a species population getting the season back to the original status is a difficult thing to do. One must convince the biologists there is a sufficient population to alter the season back to any antler. With the shrinking budgets the biologists simply don't have the funds to conduct this type of research.

The biologists would be and are onboard if the hunters were onboard - but the yellers most often aren't. If they are, others won't be.

The problem is in any room you'll have hunters who:
1) want to shoot a book buck
2) want to shoot a mature buck
3) don't want anyone from out of region hunting their backyard
4) want road closures
5) want less access restrictions
6) want a bow only season
7) muzzleloader only season
8 ) shorter rifle season
9) longer rifle season
10) more point restrictions
11) less point restrictions
12) shorter seasons
13) longer seasons
14) more stringent regulations for those who live out of region
15) to fear monger

And, at the end of the day it's about what that ONE person wants - no consideration for the future of hunting or other hunters.

It's frustrating.

[GoatGuy]

One of the most perplexing point restrictions in the province which is beyond me - is the 7-B whitetail buck point restriction?!?!?


Ask Willy..........................

[dana]

I guess when it boils down to it, shouldn't the bios be managing based on science rather than what a small group of vocal people want? The science is proven that hunter numbers are drastically falling off and our wildlife populations have never been higher. If what we've got ain't working, why not make a change regardless of how loud one small group of hunters bitch. It is impossible to please everyone. Seeing the sheer numbers of illegal 3 points that are reported that have been left to rot, seeing the sheer number of hunters dropping out, seeing the sheer numbers of deer we have in this Region, shouldn't we give the other options a try???? For one, maybe get some of the Regions together on their seasons. Why is it fine for Region 5 to have a long any buck season and a 2 mule deer limit and Region 3 has the longest combined season but a 1 deer limit, with an early 4 point season that sees virtually no hunters hunting it, and a late 4 point season. Why can't we make both Regions have the same seasons??????

[daycort]

The biologists would be and are onboard if the hunters were onboard - but the yellers most often aren't. If they are, others won't be.

The problem is in any room you'll have hunters who:
1) want to shoot a book buck
2) want to shoot a mature buck
3) don't want anyone from out of region hunting their backyard
4) want road closures
5) want less access restrictions
6) want a bow only season
7) muzzleloader only season
8 ) shorter rifle season
9) longer rifle season
10) more point restrictions
11) less point restrictions
12) shorter seasons
13) longer seasons
14) more stringent regulations for those who live out of region
15) to fear monger

And, at the end of the day it's about what that ONE person wants - no consideration for the future of hunting or other hunters.

It's frustrating.


This sounds like just about every rod and gun club meeting i have been two. You can't please everyone. I am one of the guilty ones when it comes to that trophy deer. But I don't shoot unless I find the white tail I like. Another reason is that I like moose/elk better for meat so I can be a little more picky when it comes to deer. If lifting the antler restrictions would mean getting more people, and more importantly young people into the field, then I am all for it.

[Will]

If lifting the antler restrictions would mean getting more people, and more importantly young people into the field, then I am all for it.
Exactly ! Make something easier or at least feasable for the average Folks and you'll see a huge increase in numbers...same as with anything else.

Shame the Powers that be don't see that ?

I'd vote tommorrow for an "Any Buck" all season long in Reg 3.........and not because of Genetic culling or other such nonesense. :?

It would be Purely for the increase in Hunter numbers and thier success rates ! :smile:

[BIGHUNTERFISH]

Exactly ! Make something easier or at least feasable for the average Folks and you'll see a huge increase in numbers...same as with anything else.

Shame the Powers that be don't see that ?

I'd vote tommorrow for an "Any Buck" all season long in Reg 3.........and not because of Genetic culling or other such nonesense. :?

It would be Purely for the increase in Hunter numbers and thier success rates ! :smile:

''IF ITS GOT BALLS,IT FALLS.'' :grin:

[Will]

''IF ITS GOT BALLS,IT FALLS.'' :grin:
LMAO !
Just Imagine, Glassing for sacks instead of racks :smile:

I need better optics :redface:

[Fisher-Dude]

LMAO !
Just Imagine, Glassing for sacks instead of racks :smile:

I need better optics :redface:

Ask BHF if you can try his Bagmaster 2000 spotter. :biggrin:

[bruin]

Why is it fine for Region 5 to have a long any buck season and a 2 mule deer limit and Region 3 has the longest combined season but a 1 deer limit, with an early 4 point season that sees virtually no hunters hunting it, and a late 4 point season. Why can't we make both Regions have the same seasons??????


Wouldn't this variability solve some of the problems in GoatGuys' post. Different seasons to suit different mentalities. I guess it just means driving further. If you open up any buck deer numbers drop and people start complaining about how there aren't any deer like there were in the "good old days." Take Princeton for example, just prior to the 4 point restriction there were a couple of years of poor hunting, in my opinion, yes you can argue go deeper go harder blah blah blah. But after the restriction I noticed a difference in the amount of deer I was seeing. There is still an any buck and a youth season which appeared to be quite successful this year.

[GoatGuy]

Wouldn't this variability solve some of the problems in GoatGuys' post. Different seasons to suit different mentalities. I guess it just means driving further. If you open up any buck deer numbers drop and people start complaining about how there aren't any deer like there were in the "good old days." Take Princeton for example, just prior to the 4 point restriction there were a couple of years of poor hunting, in my opinion, yes you can argue go deeper go harder blah blah blah. But after the restriction I noticed a difference in the amount of deer I was seeing. There is still an any buck and a youth season which appeared to be quite successful this year.


The deer hunting was bad because of a bad winter. Pre die-off the season was any buck sept 10-nov 15, we had more hunters and hunting was pretty darn good!;-)

[Fisher-Dude]

If you open up any buck deer numbers drop and people start complaining about how there aren't any deer like there were in the "good old days."

And your science and stats for this come from where? There is a very long "any buck" season in region 5, yet the deer population is still increasing by close to 15% per year.

Kinda blows that theory all to hell eh?

[browningboy]

And your science and stats for this come from where? There is a very long "any buck" season in region 5, yet the deer population is still increasing by close to 15% per year.

Kinda blows that theory all to hell eh?

X2, deer are sure plentilfull to even 5 years ago.