Peace Region Moose and Northern Cariboo

[Ed George]

British Columbia Trades Away Outdoor Recreation Rights to Continue Industrial Encroachment in The Peace Region


Surrey, British Columbia- February 11, 2022


The BC Wildlife Federation is concerned that a tentative agreement between Treaty 8 First Nations and the provincial government will result in a 50% reduction of moose harvest and complete closure of caribou hunting for resident hunters in Northeast BC. This tentative agreement represents a radical departure from science-based wildlife management.
The Supreme Court of British Columbia ruled late last year that the Blueberry River First Nation’s treaty rights to hunt, trap and fish in their territory have been breached “by allowing industrial development in Blueberry’s territory at an extensive scale.”
But rather than addressing the problem of industrial encroachment, the provincial government pursued secret negotiations that have resulted in a substantial reduction in access by BC resident hunters to the affected region, a 50 per cent reduction in the harvest of moose and a total closure of caribou hunting in the Peace-Liard River region of northeastern BC.


The agreement has dramatic implications for outdoor recreationists, hikers, campers, anglers, and hunters in every corner of British Columbia for all future generations.


“We are gravely concerned that the province is negotiating away outdoor recreation instead of confronting the court decision dealing with cumulative effects of unsustainable resource extraction,” BCWF Executive Director Jesse Zeman.
There is no conservation rationale for the government’s approach.
“The Peace region has the highest density moose populations in the province. The province’s own data indicates hunting is sustainable and that licensed hunter harvest is extremely low. What every single person who enjoys camping, hiking, fishing and hunting should understand is that the province is willing to negotiate them away in favour of Site C, logging, and oil and gas,” he said.
The BC Wildlife Federation fully supports the rights of First Nations to hunt and fish in their traditional territories for food, social and ceremonial purposes and the commitment to conservation and habitat restoration is shared between First Nations and non-First Nations.
“For years both Treaty 8 Nations and the BCWF have pushed the provincial government to focus on wildlife management, controlled burns and habitat restoration in the region. In several cases, our clubs and partners have done all the work the province should be doing, even paying for controlled burns only to have the government refuse to approve them. Now, after years of failing to do anything for wildlife, the province appears to be dividing First Nations and non-indigenous communities instead of bringing us together,” said Zeman.


In effect, the provincial government has traded away the rights of British Columbians in order to continue unsustainable industrial resource extraction, a process that has already compromised the ability of Treaty 8 First Nations to exercise their right to hunt, trap and fish and to maintain their way of life.
In taking this path, the provincial government has walked away from science-based wildlife management and is telling British Columbians it is willing to trade away their access to BC’s natural assets and outdoor recreation opportunities in order to continue unsustainable levels of resource extraction.


According to the court’s ruling, “the cumulative effects from a range of provincially authorized activities, projects and developments (associated with oil and gas, forestry, mining, hydroelectric infrastructure, agricultural clearing and other activities) within and adjacent to their traditional territory that has resulted in significant adverse impacts on the meaningful exercise of their treaty rights, and that amount to a breach of the Treaty.”


According to the Ministry of Indigenous Relations and Reconciliation, “as part of the [interim] agreement, 195 forestry and oil and gas projects, which were permitted or authorized prior to the court decision and where activities have not yet started, will proceed.”
“The dramatic curtailment of access to healthy wildlife populations in the Peace could have unintended spillover effects if this agreement is used as a template to restrict outdoor recreation in other regions,” said Zeman.

###
MEDIA CONTACT
Jesse Zeman Executive Director BC Wildlife Federation
(250) 878-3799
jessezeman@gmail.com

[rageous]

Well this stinks.

[horshur]

It says in article that SE moose herds are vibrant but its bad cause of resource extraction. WTF?

[tinhorse]

Yes because all the roads that industry put in for access has sure made it hard to hunt in those areas..... Or the exact opposite is true

[Throwaway]

Sickening stuff. It’s a damn shame that it won’t get nearly the interaction or interest that some BS Covid thread would though. How can we expect the greater public to take these issues seriously when we as hunters won’t…

[scttcanuck]

The above is claiming a complete closure of all caribou hunting in 7B as well as a dramatic reduction in moose harvest in 7B. Let that sink in.

[Imdone]

Sickening stuff. It’s a damn shame that it won’t get nearly the interaction or interest that some BS Covid thread would though. How can we expect the greater public to take these issues seriously when we as hunters won’t…

Because when you try for over 40 years to help and care, dedicate your life to it, and still Government doesn't spend money on Wildlife and fish. It's managing to zero along with more damaging to residents the NDP and UNDRIP are closing our opportunity off.

[BULLNUTTS]

Unfortunately just one more example of what's going on behind closed doors and behind the backs of Canadians by todays governments. The lack of accountability and the actions being taken because of that simply staggers common sense to even believe such dastardly deeds actually taking place!! Who did what?? Will be our usual house of commons gong show- Three fools farting in an elevator each swearing ''it wasn't me'', with no results of any consequences of positive good for Canadians.

[BULLNUTTS]

The above is claiming a complete closure of all caribou hunting in 7B as well as a dramatic reduction in moose harvest in 7B. Let that sink in.

When will the Full list of lands banned from '' Canadians'' be revealed?????? Because this is just the tip of the iceberg I'm sure that we as sportsmen and outdoors lovers most surely feel like the hairs on the back of our necks. I will not utter the name but a certain ship comes to mind. Enjoy while we can, what we have.

[Ed George]

This is not just cariboo in region 7B but province wide.

This is wildlife management by social pressure not science. This is the provincial governments reaction to having lost in court for the "INDUSTRIAL" encroachment and impacts in breach of Treaty 8. The NDP has put our rights in the trash.

[Walking Buffalo]

BCWF and concerned people.

The B.C. government does not own the wildlife.
Wildlife is held in TRUST by the Crown, managed by the Provinces, FOR ALL PEOPLE.
ALL PEOPLE of Canada legally own ALL THE WILDLIFE!

Negotiation is not going to quell this illegal action to exclude most of THE PEOPLE from being able to consume wildlife.

This illegal action will only be squashed in court.

File an injunction.
Get this into the court system.

[Cabled]

Hey all,
just came across something on BCWF’s social media. Looks like the BCNDP are considering trading away 50% of resident hunter moose allocation and all caribou in some areas of region 7b. This seems like a closed door deal between FN and the govt to allow resource extraction to continue after a recent court case blocked the projects from proceeding. I don’t claim to be an expert, but if this is in any way true why is this not a big deal on here? Am I missing something? Anyways. Please go to BCWF’s website and read about it, there is a video from JZ laying it all out.

[CheesyLimper]

I saw this yesterday. There's links and whatnot on BCWF for letter writing to your MLA. However I don't have much confidence that resident hunters' opinion will be considered (or valued) by our current government.
Here's a link to BCWF https://bcwf.bc.ca/peace-region-hunting-regulations/?bblinkid=258169039&bbemailid=38083335&bbejrid=-2035349830

[Mulehahn]

Interesting. First Nations oppose resource extraction because it harms there territory but they will accept that in exchange for an unlimited and an regulated hunting opportunity. Unlimited resource extraction for unlimited wildlife harvest is the deal struck? That will end well.

[Cabled]

Yeah I’m not sure if the details are finalized or not. But I am sure if we don’t speak up we are screwed. Maybe we already are, but I’m not going to stay silent. On a side note, I do some work around govt engagement with the WSSBC in region 2 specifically , we are making some headway, but are sorely lacking in people who are willing to take the time to go talk to their MLA’s and voice concerns. If anyone here living in region 2 would like some help meeting with their MLA’s please private message me. I’d love to chat and give you some help based on my experiences so far.
Mitch.

[Bigdoggdon]

And so the first domino falls.

I fully expect this to happen. This current government has already demonstrated that it doesn't give a rats ass about hunters. We're talking about a government that enacted legislation that makes it more difficult to conduct PAL/CORE training because you can no longer bring a firearm into a classroom for instructional purposes.

[IronNoggin]

​ Please watch this important message from Jesse Zeman on a development that affects all resident hunters in British Columbia. Our press release follows, and there is information below that on how you can take action


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rX7YEA3zxQw





https://bcwf.bc.ca/peace-region-hunting-regulations/

​

[Harvest the Land]

Am I correct in understanding that what Jesse is saying, is that as a result of the Blueberry Band court ruling last year that said the govt infringed on their rights, the govt just made a deal with the Blueberry FN that allows the Govt to continue with the resource extraction in their territory in exchange for not allowing hunters/anglers/campers/hikers etc on the to recreate anymore?

[carnivore]

It sounds to me like the beginning of the end for non-indigenous sportsmen.

[Red_Mist]

I think this is the 3rd thread on the same topic .. maybe a mod can merge them.

[todbartell]

email sent to my MLA

[scttcanuck]

Based on older 2017 data, 7B was 21% of provincial Resident/Non-Resident caribou harvest but a much larger proportion of GOS caribou harvest - something around 40%.

For moose, 7B is a 1/4th of the total moose harvest in BC.

This is a huge hit that totally undermines the entire science-based wildlife management model.

[emerson]

This decision is a symptom of the control the WEF has over “progressive” politics. We could try to stem the tide at the river delta as it were, but that will fail. Like placer gold, keep following it upriver until you can access the source.

[dany]

I also sent an email to my mla. I can only encourage everybody to do the same. While some say it’s a waste of energy, one can see clearly that in the US these activities have helped! Colorado has saved it’s mountain lion hunt via hunter engagement and WA is about to get their spring bear season back. Let’s send as many letters as possible!

[Blacktail1]

At this point I don’t care. If I need meat I’m gonna go shoot it . Government is irrelevant at this point . Look around.

[walks with deer]

There is a directive reponse coming team and yes we need letters getting sent there is more clear direction coming...everybody needs to engage or the push wont stop there.

[Forks]

And so the first domino falls.

I fully expect this to happen. This current government has already demonstrated that it doesn't give a rats ass about hunters. We're talking about a government that enacted legislation that makes it more difficult to conduct PAL/CORE training because you can no longer bring a firearm into a classroom for instructional purposes.

wait…what?? I didn’t see anything about this..that doesn't promote good gun safety if someone who has never seen a gun can’t handle one in a safe environment before actually going out and purchasing or borrowing one going into a hunting/target practice etc. situation..

[rageous]

Wrote to my MLA
shared to others too.

[walks with deer]

Everybody needs to email the mla,mp resource managers horgan get involved or loose it not just for you but forever for everyone.

As a Father,a mountain hunter, a conservationist,and a canadian this effects everybody..... and mark my words you must get envolved... the letters are just the start.

[rageous]

Can we get a list of email addresses we should be sending to? aside from our local MLA’s?
might make it easier for some.

[walks with deer]

BCWF and concerned people.

The B.C. government does not own the wildlife.
Wildlife is held in TRUST by the Crown, managed by the Provinces, FOR ALL PEOPLE.
ALL PEOPLE of Canada legally own ALL THE WILDLIFE!

Negotiation is not going to quell this illegal action to exclude most of THE PEOPLE from being able to consume wildlife.

This illegal action will only be squashed in court.

File an injunction.
Get this into the court system.

Ok if this is true who is going to initiate this..?

Here here everybody we need plans share them all.

[Downtown]

Resident Hunters have no Rights, at best they have "Privileges" which can be taken away anytime without compensation.

If you want "Rights" and yes as a Resident Hunter I love to have "Rights" including when it comes to Resident hunting, then support and donate to the "Freedom Convoy" because this is likely the only Choice in our Lifetime we ever will get to make the Politicians and Governments of every Stripe Federal, Provincial and Municipal to understand the People have had enough.

Cheers

[Bigdoggdon]

wait…what?? I didn’t see anything about this..that doesn't promote good gun safety if someone who has never seen a gun can’t handle one in a safe environment before actually going out and purchasing or borrowing one going into a hunting/target practice etc. situation..

Last year the BC NDP passed the "Firearms Violence Prevention Act". Part of that legislation created Red Zones, places were it is now against the law to be in possession of a firearm. Those places include schools and school property, post secondary institution properties, places of worship. The very same places were the majority of PAL/CORE programs are taught. So in essence the BC NDP has outlawed firearms and hunter safety training.

The BC NDP is in no way any kind of friend to resident hunters and gun owners.

[Steeleco]

I merged three threads, that the reason why it looks repetitive. Lots to read, MORE to do!!

[HappyJack]

Interesting. First Nations oppose resource extraction because it harms there territory but they will accept that in exchange for an unlimited and an regulated hunting opportunity. Unlimited resource extraction for unlimited wildlife harvest is the deal struck? That will end well.

What do you think they have now if not unlimited wildlife harvest? It's more like exclusive access to harvest wildlife eh.

[walks with deer]

I merged three threads, that the reason why it looks repetitive. Lots to read, MORE to do!!

Good call bossman

[Grizzlydick]

email mla's etc. sure, and get the truckers onboard, they got the message out, didn't they...

[Opinionated Ol Phart]

Latest poll shows 73% of Canadians oppose the tactics the "truckers" have used. Better think carefully who we align with.

[Grizzlydick]

true......

[TheObserver]

Latest poll shows 73% of Canadians oppose the tactics the "truckers" have used. Better think carefully who we align with.


Hahahah you really believe any of those numbers?

[emerson]

Latest poll shows 73% of Canadians oppose the tactics the "truckers" have used. Better think carefully who we align with.
Thinking carefully about who we align with is an understatement. Time will tell whether or not you should take a look in the mirror re. who is calling this incorrectly.

[VI Blacktails]

Time to quite listening to the media as they are sensored to what they say.I have heard the producer of Global got fired because she wanted to tell both sides.there have been some definately things been left out or numbers stretched.

[Harvest the Land]

Latest poll shows 73% of Canadians oppose the tactics the "truckers" have used. Better think carefully who we align with.

You got a link?

[Rob Chipman]

You can read the actual case here: https://www.canlii.org/en/bc/bcsc/doc/2021/2021bcsc1287/2021bcsc1287.html

And a shorter explanation of it here: https://www.mandellpinder.com/yahey-v-british-columbia-2021-bcsc-1287-canlii-case-summary/

The importance of the case, from a legal point of view, is that it's a recognition in law that cumulative effects of a series of industrial resource extractions qualifies as a break of Treaty 8.

There is nothing in the decision that specifies that resident hunters are a problem.

What you're seeing is the provincial government dividing and conquering. The government was found guilty of breaching a treaty by allowing too much industrial resource extraction.

Their solution? Punish hunters. Like Ed said above: "This is wildlife management by social pressure not science. This is the provincial governments reaction to having lost in court for the "INDUSTRIAL" encroachment and impacts in breach of Treaty 8."

Call your MLA. Tell them to use science, not social pressure, to manage wildlife. Blame the government.

Do not fall for the divide and conquer trick and rail against First Nations. That will not help. Call or visit your MLA and raise a little hell.

[Rob Chipman]

BCWF and concerned people.

The B.C. government does not own the wildlife.
Wildlife is held in TRUST by the Crown, managed by the Provinces, FOR ALL PEOPLE.
ALL PEOPLE of Canada legally own ALL THE WILDLIFE!

Negotiation is not going to quell this illegal action to exclude most of THE PEOPLE from being able to consume wildlife.

This illegal action will only be squashed in court.

File an injunction.
Get this into the court system.

Sadly that is not true, but it raises an important question.

The *idea* that wildlife is held as a public trust in Canada is a nice one, but as far as I know it's not one that the government believes in nor is it enshrined in law (I hope I'm wrong and someone can point me to where it says "wildlife is held in trust" in Canada). As far as I know the idea that wildlife is held in trust for the public is a description of what Val Geist and Shane Mahoney saw, more or less, as a practice that some governments around NA engaged in. It's never been accurate in BC as far as I can see.

This matters because going forward the question of who owns fish and wildlife will matter very much. There are Indigenous people who argue that they own the wildlife on their territory. Mention this to your MLA and change their worldview, because if it becomes widely accepted that wildlife and fish belong to the Indigenous people in a particular territory it is going to become very difficult to unring that bell.

[Rob Chipman]

Can we get a list of email addresses we should be sending to? aside from our local MLA’s?
might make it easier for some.


Alphabetical list of emails here:

https://www.leg.bc.ca/content-committees/Pages/MLA-Contact-Information.aspx

Find your MLA here:

https://www.leg.bc.ca/learn-about-us/members


Tell them:

1) Yahey vs BC (Blueberry River FN decision) was about industrial activity, not hunting, and it's inappropriate to punish hunters for the cumulative effects of industrial activity;
2) Dividing and conquering is not going to help reconciliation, but will rather flame the fires of anger on both the Indigenous and non-Indigenous sides;
3) Stopping hunting will not restore fish, wildlife and habitat. That takes money and political will, not regulation changes;
4) Most graph lines rise as they go to the right; the historical BC wildlife funding graph line is flat as it moves right, and adjusted for inflation and growth it goes down as it moves right. Most MLAs are not aware of this. Make sure you tell them that funding has, in fact, been woefully inadequate and we are...."managing to zero" in BC (most MLAs don't know that term and need it drilled into their heads).

Remember, you can meet easily on Zoom with your MLA. It's easy.

If you can't do that send them an email. If you don't get an answer report back here with the MLA's name.

If you get the MLA's assistant chase them down for a good answer. Make sure they know that you're pissed.

[rageous]

Sent a second email to my MLA outlining these points.

Only have received automated responses so far.

[Harvest the Land]

Alphabetical list of emails here:

https://www.leg.bc.ca/content-committees/Pages/MLA-Contact-Information.aspx

Find your MLA here:

https://www.leg.bc.ca/learn-about-us/members


Tell them:

1) Yahey vs BC (Blueberry River FN decision) was about industrial activity, not hunting, and it's inappropriate to punish hunters for the cumulative effects of industrial activity;
2) Dividing and conquering is not going to help reconciliation, but will rather flame the fires of anger on both the Indigenous and non-Indigenous sides;
3) Stopping hunting will not restore fish, wildlife and habitat. That takes money and political will, not regulation changes;
4) Most graph lines rise as they go to the right; the historical BC wildlife funding graph line is flat as it moves right, and adjusted for inflation and growth it goes down as it moves right. Most MLAs are not aware of this. Make sure you tell them that funding has, in fact, been woefully inadequate and we are...."managing to zero" in BC (most MLAs don't know that term and need it drilled into their heads).

Remember, you can meet easily on Zoom with your MLA. It's easy.

If you can't do that send them an email. If you don't get an answer report back here with the MLA's name.

If you get the MLA's assistant chase them down for a good answer. Make sure they know that you're pissed.

Good stuff Rob - very helpful

[Opinionated Ol Phart]

TheObserver ....So show me otherwise.

[rageous]

If you can't do that send them an email. If you don't get an answer report back here with the MLA's name.



Lisa Beare- Maple Ridge-Pitt Meadows

[Walking Buffalo]

When sending letters to politicians and bureaucrats....
ASK A QUESTION(s) and REQUEST AN ANSWER to the question(s).





Alphabetical list of emails here:

https://www.leg.bc.ca/content-committees/Pages/MLA-Contact-Information.aspx

Find your MLA here:

https://www.leg.bc.ca/learn-about-us/members


Tell them:

1) Yahey vs BC (Blueberry River FN decision) was about industrial activity, not hunting, and it's inappropriate to punish hunters for the cumulative effects of industrial activity;
2) Dividing and conquering is not going to help reconciliation, but will rather flame the fires of anger on both the Indigenous and non-Indigenous sides;
3) Stopping hunting will not restore fish, wildlife and habitat. That takes money and political will, not regulation changes;
4) Most graph lines rise as they go to the right; the historical BC wildlife funding graph line is flat as it moves right, and adjusted for inflation and growth it goes down as it moves right. Most MLAs are not aware of this. Make sure you tell them that funding has, in fact, been woefully inadequate and we are...."managing to zero" in BC (most MLAs don't know that term and need it drilled into their heads).

Remember, you can meet easily on Zoom with your MLA. It's easy.

If you can't do that send them an email. If you don't get an answer report back here with the MLA's name.

If you get the MLA's assistant chase them down for a good answer. Make sure they know that you're pissed.

[Bullreaper]

Has anyone who called or sent email to there MLA’s heard anything back about this issue? I’ve sent emails to Tom Shypitka (my MLA), Katrine Conroy and the premieres office. Haven’t got a response from either one. I also emailed Conroy in early January asking if we could expect and increase in funding for fish and wildlife when they announce the latest budget, silence so far.

[Imdone]

Expect Crickets......
Fish and wildlife is the lowest of priorities to any politician.

[Danny_29]

Nope. Nothing.

[BULLNUTTS]

Frustrated and trying not to let anger rule the dayz ahead as it indeed seems to be looking Smokey. Like many here, I have been a fisherman since first got the ''fever'' a boy of three years where on a local fishing wharf groups of kids would fish for bullheads. A kings catch was if you caught a minnow!! Lol King for a day. Later at the ripe age of five years my Ma used to pull the string on the fishing motor to start for me and I would drive the boat out fishing for trout. = A LIFETIME OF BEING A FISHERMAN AND SPORTSMAN. For any group or person to stand and say that a legal Canadian citizens cannot load the wife n kids in the truck and take them fishin, pollywoggin, huntin, hiking, camping and/or any other outdoor enjoyment a body can think of well it's just WRONG!!!!! Already I have talked to lots folks about this. Every single person spoken to said SAME thing- shit gonna fly if an Indian tries to stop me and my family from the woods!! I have to say that I agree. I am a well traveled person, respectful of a many culture, religion, belief and love the diversity of our country. This country was built on that very diversity, it's who we are as Canadians! All this creating division and taking of rights n freedoms and liberties, and now our governments simply doing as they please - sweeping massive bills into motion ,bypassing the house of commons as if nothing, driving a stake through the very heart of democracy in plain sight!! This travesty has become an almost everyday thing now- that we hear after the fact, some dastardly blow has been struck in secret yet again, behind Canadian's backs!! Folks are hiding guns, stockpiling ammo, gathering gear, trouble is a brewing now and there is a slow but steady awareness creeping around that family fishin trips and picnics are threatened !!!!! SPEAD THE WORD!!! LET EVERYBODY KNOW. IT NOT JUST HUNTING ANY MORE. ITS EVERYDAY REGULAR FOLKS THAT CANT GO FISHIN THEY TAKING NOW!!! That's a Big stick- Wack the b@starts with it.Go.

[rageous]

Crickets here

[IronNoggin]

Crickets here

Ditto... :evil:

[elknut]

I read .....Cant remember where but moose hunting is gonna be LEH in 7B...So they are not shutting it all down...They arent closing caribou hunting in region 6 as far as I can remember..But bottom line the NDP govt and the Liberal govt are really gonna decimate our hunting privileges...Dennis....PS ...The prov govt is cutting the budget by 75 million ....

[Ed George]

Putting moose in 7B on LEH is to reduce resident non native harvest by 50%, the closing of cariboo in the north is social management by request.

The BCWF is definitely in a fight for us as hunters.

[IronNoggin]

Putting moose in 7B on LEH is to reduce resident non native harvest by 50%, the closing of cariboo in the north is social management by request.

The BCWF is definitely in a fight for us as hunters.

Thanks Ed. Sincerely Appreciated.
And I am 100% behind you in this.

Cheers,
Matt

[rageous]

Only response so far.

”Thank-you for you for your email inquiry dated Feb XX, 2022. The path forward from the court declared breach of treaty rights is an important matter for all British Columbians.
The Province and Treaty 8 are currently working on a series of measures to address the infringement of treaty rights resulting from disturbances on the wildlife and land base, including industrial development. Potential changes to the current hunting regulations are one of these measures.
Treaty 8 and the Province are committed to meaningful engagement with the public on the proposed regulatory package. We look forward to that package being made available for review in the near future. Please check the Angling Hunting, and Trapping Engagement website for the opportunity to provide your feedback when the public engagement period commences, and the complete picture is available for review and comment.
Again, thank you for writing and sharing your concerns. Regards,
Karrilyn Vince
Regional Executive Director”
Karrilyn Vince
Regional Executive Director
Regional Operations – Northeast Region
Forests, Lands, Natural Resource Operations and Rural Development
Karrilyn.Vince@gov.bc.ca

[Ed George]

The Province and Treaty 8 are currently working on a series of measures to address the infringement of treaty rights resulting from disturbances on the wildlife and land base, including industrial development.
Again, thank you for writing and sharing your concerns. Regards,
Karrilyn Vince
Regional Executive Director”
Karrilyn Vince
Regional Executive Director
Regional Operations – Northeast Region
Forests, Lands, Natural Resource Operations and Rural Development
Karrilyn.Vince@gov.bc.ca



This is complete hocus pocus, the court ruling stated "industrial development" and "cumulative effects of industrial development" not one word about hunting, fishing or recreating by the non indigenous population of the province.

[Sitkaspruce]

Don't be fooled by what the media is saying. Wildlife was included, it was just buried by all the whoop law of the decision.

I watched a video and presentation by the BRFN lawyer and the government was basically done in the first day.

The Peace will be going to LEH for moose with a rumored ~550 tags being split between residents and non. Estimated 45000+ (Government numbers, but it is an estimate.....) moose in the NE. This has nothing to do with moose/caribou populations, it is all about limiting the number of licensed hunters on the land base. And elk, deer, sheep and goats are also on the list.

Also remember that even though the decision was for BRFN, it has spread to all treaty 8 lands in the NE. The other thing that has dropped from the media and focus of others is the treaty entitlement lands that will be disclosed soon. Thousands of HA of land in the NE will be given to Treaty 8 bands for the Site C project and those lands will be treated as PRIVATE land. And this is TREATY lands. Just wait until this process moves west of the Rockies as it will, into NON TREATY lands. One of the questions this year in the government hunting feedback was having all the moose seasons in the north harmonized. So look for LEH in NW BC as well. If Caribou are not closed, expect blockades. And just look at what is happening to salmon on the west coast and moose in parts of the Caribou. The movement is already on, death by a thousand cuts, except they are now using a big knife!

Government is supposed to soon ask for public consultation on this decision. When they do, we need fill it with good quality comments about use of science to manage wildlife and not social, list facts and not BS and no red neck screaming comments. The Government will throw those out. And keep in mind that this might be a done deal already, like the Grizzly hunt, and they are just going through the motions. UNDRIP is the big driver for the NDP and this falls into their system.

This is the hill we need to die on...seriously, as this will spread across BC fast if they get their way up in the NE

Cheers

SS

[high horse Hal]

https://bcwf.bc.ca/peace-region-hunting-regulations/

Went to the website to try and find a map of the new territory
Has one been published somewhere?

"But rather than addressing the problem of industrial encroachment, the provincial government pursued secret negotiations
that have resulted in a substantial reduction in access by BC resident hunters to the affected region,
a 50 per cent reduction in the harvest of moose
and a total closure of caribou hunting in the Peace-Liard River region of northeastern BC."

[HappyJack]

Sadly that is not true, but it raises an important question.

The *idea* that wildlife is held as a public trust in Canada is a nice one, but as far as I know it's not one that the government believes in nor is it enshrined in law (I hope I'm wrong and someone can point me to where it says "wildlife is held in trust" in Canada). As far as I know the idea that wildlife is held in trust for the public is a description of what Val Geist and Shane Mahoney saw, more or less, as a practice that some governments around NA engaged in. It's never been accurate in BC as far as I can see.

This matters because going forward the question of who owns fish and wildlife will matter very much. There are Indigenous people who argue that they own the wildlife on their territory. Mention this to your MLA and change their worldview, because if it becomes widely accepted that wildlife and fish belong to the Indigenous people in a particular territory it is going to become very difficult to unring that bell.

And what makes you think they don't have ownership over the wildlife, the land , the water and all the resources on THEIR LAND? Please elaborate.

[bearvalley]

And what makes you think they don't have ownership over the wildlife, the land , the water and all the resources on THEIR LAND? Please elaborate.

Under the Wildlife Act
Property in Wildlife 2(1) Ownership in all wildlife in British Columbia is vested in the government.

Ministers Powers
3 The minister, for the purpose of access to or the management or protection of wildlife, may
(b) enter into and carry out an agreement with a person, association or other body.

These two sections give Horgan and company ground to designate wildlife shares on land that is non titled as I read it.
On titled land, even tho the wildlife is still as per say the property of the government, access to that wildlife is shut off due to ownership of the land.
So technically, Happy Jack is correct in a way in that First Nations have sole use of wildlife on title lands.

Looks to me like it’s time for Rob & Jesse and all others concerned to lawyer up …. we saw haw effective petitions worked when the grizzly hunt was closed.

[IronNoggin]

Government is supposed to soon ask for public consultation on this decision. When they do, we need fill it with good quality comments about use of science to manage wildlife and not social, list facts and not BS and no red neck screaming comments. The Government will throw those out. And keep in mind that this might be a done deal already, like the Grizzly hunt, and they are just going through the motions. UNDRIP is the big driver for the NDP and this falls into their system.

This is the hill we need to die on...seriously, as this will spread across BC fast if they get their way up in the NE


Thanks again. Nailed it.

This is one of the largest threats we have collectively faced.
Get on board or get the hell out of the way.
If you don't care enough to get involved now, hang up your guns, you won't soon be needing them.

Nog

[Dannybuoy]

Thanks again. Nailed it.

This is one of the largest threats we have collectively faced.
Get on board or get the hell out of the way.
If you don't care enough to get involved now, hang up your guns, you won't soon be needing them.

Nog

Agree , but not sure what you mean get on board ? What do can the average hunter do ? Or what should we be doing ?

[ElectricDyck]

Don't be fooled by what the media is saying. Wildlife was included, it was just buried by all the whoop law of the decision.

I watched a video and presentation by the BRFN lawyer and the government was basically done in the first day.

The Peace will be going to LEH for moose with a rumored ~550 tags being split between residents and non. Estimated 45000+ (Government numbers, but it is an estimate.....) moose in the NE. This has nothing to do with moose/caribou populations, it is all about limiting the number of licensed hunters on the land base. And elk, deer, sheep and goats are also on the list.

Also remember that even though the decision was for BRFN, it has spread to all treaty 8 lands in the NE. The other thing that has dropped from the media and focus of others is the treaty entitlement lands that will be disclosed soon. Thousands of HA of land in the NE will be given to Treaty 8 bands for the Site C project and those lands will be treated as PRIVATE land. And this is TREATY lands. Just wait until this process moves west of the Rockies as it will, into NON TREATY lands. One of the questions this year in the government hunting feedback was having all the moose seasons in the north harmonized. So look for LEH in NW BC as well. If Caribou are not closed, expect blockades. And just look at what is happening to salmon on the west coast and moose in parts of the Caribou. The movement is already on, death by a thousand cuts, except they are now using a big knife!

Government is supposed to soon ask for public consultation on this decision. When they do, we need fill it with good quality comments about use of science to manage wildlife and not social, list facts and not BS and no red neck screaming comments. The Government will throw those out. And keep in mind that this might be a done deal already, like the Grizzly hunt, and they are just going through the motions. UNDRIP is the big driver for the NDP and this falls into their system.

This is the hill we need to die on...seriously, as this will spread across BC fast if they get their way up in the NE

Cheers

SS


Sad news...the way my kids text books are written I feel UNDRIP is inevitable no matter how many letter rightng campaigns are done..

[IronNoggin]

Agree , but not sure what you mean get on board ? What do can the average hunter do ? Or what should we be doing ?

Staring point here: https://bcwf.bc.ca/peace-region-hunting-regulations/

Then follow up with a pointed but polite letter to your MLA, cc'd to Horgan ( premier@gov.bc.ca (premier@gov.bc.ca)) Katrine Conroy ( FLNR.Minister@gov.bc.ca ) Mike Farnworth (PSSG.Minister@gov.bc.ca )

Go even one better and MAIL a copy to each. Goes a hell of a lot further than an email which any staffer can and will toss.

Nog

[leadpillproductions]

Tlked to guy who sat in on meeting last night sounds like all 7b 600 tags and then a guides get there draws from our 600. What a fnkin joke , time to pull the plug on bc what a crock of sht

[smeegle]

Dear xx

Thank you for writing and sharing your concerns about restrictions on hunting licensing in the Peace River Region.

The Province of British Columbia and Treaty 8 (including the Blueberry First Nation) are currently working on a series of measures to address the infringement of treaty rights. Potential changes to the current hunting regulations are one of these measures.

There will be an opportunity for all British Columbians to share feedback when the proposals are made available to the public via the Angling, Hunting, and Trapping Engagement website Hunting/Trapping Regulations | AHTE (gov.bc.ca).

I hope you will add your voice there, so that the decision-makers have the benefit of your voice.


Thank you for taking the time to write; it’s appreciated.

With Thanks,
Sheila Malcolmson

[WhiteTailAB]

So if I read this correctly, no more caribou hunting in BC? I got a buddy who's moving there next year so I better get the word to him and burst his bubble unfortunately.

[leadpillproductions]

Lol just called my wife told her were moving
So if I read this correctly, no more caribou hunting in BC? I got a buddy who's moving there next year so I better get the word to him and burst his bubble unfortunately.

[HappyJack]

Under the Wildlife Act
Property in Wildlife 2(1) Ownership in all wildlife in British Columbia is vested in the government.

Ministers Powers
3 The minister, for the purpose of access to or the management or protection of wildlife, may
(b) enter into and carry out an agreement with a person, association or other body.

These two sections give Horgan and company ground to designate wildlife shares on land that is non titled as I read it.
On titled land, even tho the wildlife is still as per say the property of the government, access to that wildlife is shut off due to ownership of the land.
So technically, Happy Jack is correct in a way in that First Nations have sole use of wildlife on title lands.

Looks to me like it’s time for Rob & Jesse and all others concerned to lawyer up …. we saw haw effective petitions worked when the grizzly hunt was closed.

They actually have dominion over all the land, the resources and the wildlife, on unceded territory. While a majority won't accept it they will eventually establish this through negotiations or the Supreme court. That is the price for not negotiating treaties like they did in the rest of Canada.

[DJK]

I sent the form letter to my MLA when I received it from BCWF, wasn't smart enough to cc the other politicians suggested here. At any rate, I did receive a prompt response. Hopefully the guy is legit and not just blowing sunshine. At any rate, we have to make sure our voices are heard.

The response:

Thank you for your email outlining your concern about hunting regulation changes in British Columbia. As the MLA for Kamloops – South Thompson, I always appreciate hearing from constituents on important issues such as this.

Our caucus remains steadfast that all wildlife management decisions need to be made on the basis of the best available science. We believe that a balance can be struck between wildlife management and hunting - these goals are not mutually exclusive. We have significant concern about the NDP’s ideologically-based agenda alienating law-abiding hunters from discussions about best practices on the land base. The best government decisions come from combining the best available data with robust consultation with the individuals who spend the most time in the backcountry. Hunters understand that the continuation of hunting practices requires a strong mandate for conservational practices. This unique knowledge needs to be a part of government wildlife management decision making. For example, we are all concerned about declining ungulates like caribou and moose. The best science available tells us that habitat and predator control are critical. It is therefore understandable that hunters are frustrated with the lack of government action on the issue of wildlife management. I am as well.

Thank you for your engagement on this issue. I will continue to advocate strongly for a science-based and common sense based approach to wildlife management in B.C.

Kind regards,

Todd Stone
MLA Kamloops – South Thompson

[Rob Chipman]

They actually have dominion over all the land, the resources and the wildlife, on unceded territory. While a majority won't accept it they will eventually establish this through negotiations or the Supreme court. That is the price for not negotiating treaties like they did in the rest of Canada.

You're not wrong although some of what you say is still speculative (well informed speculation though). There is s role for negotiation because I don't think the courts will rule in a way non-Indigenous resident hunters and anglers will like.

A lot of people think that fish & wildlife in BC is held in trust by the government for everyone. As you understand, that is not the case. IT would be better if we had a wider understanding and appreciation of that.

[Rob Chipman]

I sent the form letter to my MLA when I received it from BCWF, wasn't smart enough to cc the other politicians suggested here. At any rate, I did receive a prompt response. Hopefully the guy is legit and not just blowing sunshine. At any rate, we have to make sure our voices are heard.

The response:

Thank you for your email outlining your concern about hunting regulation changes in British Columbia. As the MLA for Kamloops – South Thompson, I always appreciate hearing from constituents on important issues such as this.

Our caucus remains steadfast that all wildlife management decisions need to be made on the basis of the best available science. We believe that a balance can be struck between wildlife management and hunting - these goals are not mutually exclusive. We have significant concern about the NDP’s ideologically-based agenda alienating law-abiding hunters from discussions about best practices on the land base. The best government decisions come from combining the best available data with robust consultation with the individuals who spend the most time in the backcountry. Hunters understand that the continuation of hunting practices requires a strong mandate for conservational practices. This unique knowledge needs to be a part of government wildlife management decision making. For example, we are all concerned about declining ungulates like caribou and moose. The best science available tells us that habitat and predator control are critical. It is therefore understandable that hunters are frustrated with the lack of government action on the issue of wildlife management. I am as well.

Thank you for your engagement on this issue. I will continue to advocate strongly for a science-based and common sense based approach to wildlife management in B.C.

Kind regards,

Todd Stone
MLA Kamloops – South Thompson


Stone is in opposition right now, but overall I think he is genuinely sympathetic to resident hunters and anglers.

[Walking Buffalo]

You're not wrong although some of what you say is still speculative (well informed speculation though). There is s role for negotiation because I don't think the courts will rule in a way non-Indigenous resident hunters and anglers will like.

A lot of people think that fish & wildlife in BC is held in trust by the government for everyone. As you understand, that is not the case. IT would be better if we had a wider understanding and appreciation of that.



IT would be better if You and the BCWF had a better understanding that the Canadian and US governments have legal precedent invoking Pubic Trust in wildlife.
Federal law and the historic legal foundation of Wildlife management in Canada is based on a Public Trust and the NAMWC.

A legal challenge by the citizens of BC to BC government claims of ownership is justified, just as the First Nations are doing.

It appears to me that you would rather appear to be right than be right.
Stop kneeling before government propaganda and its attempt to steal Wildlife from the People.

Some background reading.
ptd_10-1.pdf (wildlife.org) (https://wildlife.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/ptd_10-1.pdf)

[bearvalley]

IT would be better if You and the BCWF had a better understanding that the Canadian and US governments have legal precedent invoking Pubic Trust in wildlife.
Federal law and the historic legal foundation of Wildlife management in Canada is based on a Public Trust and the NAMWC.

A legal challenge by the citizens of BC to BC government claims of ownership is justified, just as the First Nations are doing.

It appears to me that you would rather appear to be right than be right.
Stop kneeling before government propaganda and its attempt to steal Wildlife from the People.

Some background reading.
ptd_10-1.pdf (wildlife.org) (https://wildlife.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/ptd_10-1.pdf)

With “always right Rob” being the BCWF liaison between the Fed and First Nations every resident hunter in BC better pay attention to his comments.

[Rob Chipman]

IT would be better if You and the BCWF had a better understanding that the Canadian and US governments have legal precedent invoking Pubic Trust in wildlife.
Federal law and the historic legal foundation of Wildlife management in Canada is based on a Public Trust and the NAMWC.

A legal challenge by the citizens of BC to BC government claims of ownership is justified, just as the First Nations are doing.

It appears to me that you would rather appear to be right than be right.
Stop kneeling before government propaganda and its attempt to steal Wildlife from the People.

Some background reading.
ptd_10-1.pdf (wildlife.org) (https://wildlife.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/ptd_10-1.pdf)

Thanks for the link.

There is a common law right to hunt that can be traced back at least to Magna Carta and probably earlier. There is statute law in BC indicating that there is a right to hunt. It would be possible to launch a legal challenge of some sort to clarify this, but there are two obstacles.

First, government does not seem to support it (note that they did not appeal Yahey but rather chose to negotiate) and second, someone has to pay the bill for that legal challenge. Perhaps you could start a GoFundMe? It worked well for the truckers, right? :-)


As to the background reading:





"In Canada, as a part of the British Commonwealth of which the reigning British monarch is the symbolic head of state, common or public property is referred to as assets of the “Crown.” Most of the provincial statutes relating to public lands and wildlife describe ownership as “vested in His/Her Majesty in the right of the Province,” which in modern times *implies* held in trust for the benefit of the people".

(Emphasis is mine, the link is yours. There is an implication of public trust doctrine described in this part of your recommended further study, which is not the same as the right to hunt).

"In contrast, after review of the basis and application of the PTD in Canada, Henquinet and Dobson (2006) concluded that only a *rudimentary PTD*, related to the public’s right to navigate and fish in navigable waters, existed in Canada."

(Again, emphasis is mine, the link is yours, and it indicates a *rudimentary* public trust doctrine).


"Those authors indicated few instances of case law in Canada that dealt with public trust issues, and *virtually no articulation of a PTD*."


(Again, emphasis mine, the link is yours).


"The Yukon and Northwest Territories have incorporated the concept of public trust into statutes related to natural resources. Section 6 of the Northwest Territories Environmental Rights Act (1990) states the need “to protect the integrity, biological diversity, and productivity of the ecosystems in the Northwest Territories” and the “right to protect the environment and the public trust.” The Environment Act of the Yukon, passed in 1991, recognizes that the government is a “trustee of the public trust to protect the natural environment from actual or likely impairment.” *At this time the concept of public trust established in these statutes has not been tested in court*."

(That's 1990/91 legislation. A lot of Indigenous law has been settled since. )



"Just over half of the provinces and territories have incorporated language on the public ownership of wildlife in their statutes. Nonetheless, this is an *indication* of the *intent* to treat wildlife as a public trust resource. Case law is at this point non-existent as to any explicit mention of the “public trust.” "

(Emphasis mine, link is yours, and as we've already agreed, there are grounds for a legal argument to be made, but I don't think PTD is codified in regard to fish, wildlife and habitat in BC. If you can show me the BC law that would be great.)


"The case of Green v. Ontario (1973) purports to apply a statutory form of the PTD, but it is nothing like the common law PTD that has developed in the U.S."


"Certainly there are no cases that compel provinces or territories to hold certain natural resources in “trust” for the people. The rights of the citizens in Canada that could be analogous to the rights enjoyed in the U.S. under the PTD are the right to navigate and fish. However, the Canadian Parliament retains the primary authority to modify these rights."

Breitbart said politics is downstream from culture and he was absolutely correct. Similarly, legal decisions are downstream from culture as well. The Royal Proclamation was dismissed by Ontario Courts in the 1800s, but it landed with effect in the 2000s. The taking up clause and the idea that treaties extinguished Indigenous title were earlier understandings of the Canadian legal landscape. Those understandings no longer and have been superseded.

Speaking of which, you're referencing an opinion piece from a volunteer group from a foreign country that's from 2010.

Go read Yahey, or Tsilhqot'in and explain why I'm kneeling before government propoganda when I say that the question of who owns the fish, the wildlife and the habitat is a real and serious question that we should be concerned with.

[huntingfamily]

So what exactly is the BCWF doing on our behalf regarding this major issue?

[emerson]

So what exactly is the BCWF doing on our behalf regarding this major issue?
Yes, what? Besides saying the natives get it all and we are done.

[Sitkaspruce]

So what exactly is the BCWF doing on our behalf regarding this major issue?

What are you doing?

It will take more that the BCWF to get this fixed, a lot more. In fact, it is probably too late.

I am sure this is known to a few others, but we have a huge battle on our hands over this!!

The Government has decided to change recreation in BC by starting in the Peace.

Residents and non residents harvested approx. 1270 moose in the Peace. FN has asked a reduction of 50%, so that leaves us with ~635 moose we can kill.

Bring in LEH, in an area that has had a successful 1-2 week open and then antler restriction season for years and a stable 45000 animals. Now LEH will restrict hunters and hunter opportunity.

Then the Government decided that they still like GO more than residents and changed the allocation to 75% residents and 25% non residents. Which means ~476 resident tags and 159 non resident allocations....out of approx 45000 animals.

So there is no concerns about the moose populations, but the NDP has thrown out the "how to manage wildlife using science" book for the "how to manage wildlife using social systems". Its a trade off; FN want less licenced hunters on there lands, so Gov says OK, can we still rape and pillage the Peace?

The Peace is first, Region 6 north will be next for LEH as Region 6 cannot be the only open moose season in BC and the Tahltan will make sure of that.

I wonder when elk, deer, sheep, goats and even bears will be next......

And to those who think that this only happening in the Peace, remember that the Peace is under Treaty 8....and the rest of the BC has no treaty, so implementing this will be much easier.

Cheers

SS

[high horse Hal]

Sitka , I agree with most but this.
"So there is no concerns about the moose populations, but the NDP has thrown out the "how to manage wildlife using science" book for the "how to manage wildlife using social systems". Its a trade off; FN want less licenced hunters on there lands, so Gov says OK,........."

The situation is not about wildlife management for wildlifes sake, I don't think they or anyone is saying these changes will improve a dire wildlife condition
This is purely a people management move

[high horse Hal]

So what exactly is the BCWF doing on our behalf regarding this major issue?Dive into their BCWF website , its all there,, and if you are a member take a look at the correspondence sent out

[Sitkaspruce]

Sitka , I agree with most but this.
"So there is no concerns about the moose populations, but the NDP has thrown out the "how to manage wildlife using science" book for the "how to manage wildlife using social systems". Its a trade off; FN want less licenced hunters on there lands, so Gov says OK,........."

The situation is not about wildlife management for wildlifes sake, I don't think they or anyone is saying these changes will improve a dire wildlife condition
This is purely a people management move

I don't think I said it was about wildlife management, it all about social management and the management of BC residents on the landscape. Was just noting that the NDP has thrown a certain book out on wildlife management for the management of hunters, specifically BC resident hunters. No different than the grizzly bear hunt, the black bear hunt on the QCI and the other changes that will soon follow.

Hang out, its about to get bumpy.

Cheers

SS

[Rob Chipman]

So what exactly is the BCWF doing on our behalf regarding this major issue?

Working hard to influence government. Lots of calls, lots of meetings, lots of people during the midnight oil. One press release has gone out and been shared. More will follow, probably this week.

At times like this we have to be careful about what is said, when it's said and who says it. You can read between the lines on that.

[Rob Chipman]

Yes, what? Besides saying the natives get it all and we are done.
You probably need to re-read some of that stuff, and you might read a few of the court decisions that influence what we do.

The question of who owns wildlife is real, and has not been conclusively decided. People can argue that I'm wrong on that and argue that resident hunters have a right to fish and wildlife, but I haven't seen anyone actually do that.

Recognizing what the courts have done on Indigenous rights and title and how it effects resident hunters isn't saying the First Nations get it all.

It's illuminating the terrain in which we currently find ourselves deployed.

Anytime I'm off base or inaccurate, Emerson, please set me straight. If you're just not happy with the way the world is going? Don't shoot the messenger.

[ElectricDyck]

Been convinced for a few years now that hunting, fishing, gun ownership and freedom for that matter is on its way out for Canadians but man it sure seems to be moving fast these days..

[HappyJack]

Resident hunters might have to shut down the north east to get the NDPs attention. Or maybe mass civil disobedience and just all go hunting against the laws they are foisting on us. There is no way guided hunters should have preference over resident hunters and I have been saying for years that if we need LEH there should be no allocation for non resident hunters or wealthy BC residents who use guides regularly.

[IronNoggin]

Then the Government decided that they still like GO more than residents and changed the allocation to 75% residents and 25% non residents. Which means ~476 resident tags and 159 non resident allocations....out of approx 45000 animals.


Above and beyond the social management of wildlands and wildlife resources, this is an extreme concern.

The legislated split between residents and outfitters is 91 % to 9 %.
NOT 75 to 25 %.
In fact some outfitters will realize gains in their quotas if this is allowed to proceed.

This very much IS a Hill To Die On Folks!
We MUST let those in power know that we refuse to sit idly by while they take away our access to OUR resources, manage by emotion, and place outfitters & their clients above and beyond us.

VERY much time to draw the line in the sand here!

Oddly enough, I don't see too much spewing coming from the outfitters that were in opposition to opposing these moves on this thread any more. Caught Red Handed is very much what it stinks like...

Ticked Right Off,
Nog

[bearvalley]

Above and beyond the social management of wildlands and wildlife resources, this is an extreme concern.

The legislated split between residents and outfitters is 91 % to 9 %.
NOT 75 to 25 %.
In fact some outfitters will realize gains in their quotas if this is allowed to proceed.

This very much IS a Hill To Die On Folks!
We MUST let those in power know that we refuse to sit idly by while they take away our access to OUR resources, manage by emotion, and place outfitters & their clients above and beyond us.

VERY much time to draw the line in the sand here!

Oddly enough, I don't see too much spewing coming from the outfitters that were in opposition to opposing these moves on this thread any more. Caught Red Handed is very much what it stinks like...

Ticked Right Off,
Nog

Nog, you better go take a refresher on allocation splits before you have a stroke.
How many moose in 7B were on LEH?
Didn't government say some time ago that they were looking at harmonizing seasons with 7B & 6?
Whats the Region 6 North moose allocation split?
It’s bullshit you’re making this a resident versus outfitter issue when we all got blindsided.
“ Caught red handed” my ass.

[HappyJack]

Nog, you better go take a refresher on allocation splits before you have a stroke.
How many moose in 7B were on LEH?
Didn't government say some time ago that they were looking at harmonizing seasons with 7B & 6?
Whats the Region 6 North moose allocation split?
It’s bullshit you’re making this a resident versus outfitter issue when we all got blindsided.
“ Caught red handed” my ass.

Well sure don't hear any complaints mr my ass. The damned guides need to be shut out of any zone under LEH once and for all, give them an inch and they back door broker even more.

[bearvalley]

Well sure don't hear any complaints mr my ass. The damned guides need to be shut out of any zone under LEH once and for all, give them an inch and they back door broker even more.

HappyJack, it’s debatable if you’re even a hunter or a strait up anti shit disturber.
If your wish comes true and outfitters disappear off the scene watch how fast resident hunting opportunities sink.

[emerson]

HappyJack, it’s debatable if you’re even a hunter or a strait up anti shit disturber.
If your wish comes true and outfitters disappear off the scene watch how fast resident hunting opportunities sink.
Why are you better than resident hunters?

[HappyJack]

I have no problems with guides/outfitters operating within my traditional territory, just so long as we who are born and raised here are not disadvantaged to give them the advantage of making money from my source of food.

[Sitkaspruce]

The thing is Bearvalley, is that most the GO's in the 7B are not residents. I am not sure the exact numbers, but I believe that most outfits are foreign owned and they have a Canadian as the "Guide Outfitter" and I think a few of those are Americans who hold dual citizenship. So, they really don't give a shit about resident hunters. As long as we don't land on "Their" lake, hunt "their" valley or park at "their" trailhead, they couldn't give two shits about of us and our 486 LEH tags we get. They get 162 tags to sell for an average of ~$8000 US. Not bad for a couple meetings with Government.

A quick update

- It is supposed to be a 2 year "trial" with a review in 2023
- Treaty 8 wishes to get long with their "neighbors"
- Any bull LEH from Sept 1-Nov 15 with rut closure (not sure if that will be all of 7B or just the areas that are already closed)
- Proposed that LEH will be in 2 week increments, so possibly 12 time frames
- Goal is to avoid overlap with Treaty 8 during cultural specific time periods & locations of traditional hunting
- Guide Quota - Based on 5 yr Annual Allowable Harvest(2016-2019) which they claim resulted in 1296 Moose being taken/year the number would be 50/50 (648), but of that 648 for general public that would be split with a Guide Quota of 75/25 - 486 resident, 162 non resident. In other words that would result in a reduction for the general population of roughly 90% opportunity while the GOABC would increase by 40%; TOTALLY UNACCEPTABLE!
- Compulsory Reporting - query if that would extend to both parties to get proper data, Treaty 8 & General Public; seems unfair to require only one side, unrealistic that
scientific definable value can be obtained; when the numbers are split disproportionately between the populations numbers (Treaty 8 vs General public)

Moving forward

- Bring people together (wildlife working group)
• Invest in wildlife habitat restoration, enhancement, protection
• Invest in research and monitoring
• Conduct post-hunting season management reviews
• Make recommendations for 2024

- new terminology OCAP - Ownership Control Access & Possession being used
- Discussion about harmonizing regulations between Region 6, 7A & 7B
✴ Info that Region 7A does already have some restrictions in the Parsnip area
✴ Region 6 has restrictions as a result of access closures

This is the nuts and bolts of a meeting held last week

Biggest issues are: going to LEH to appease a certain group when there is no wildlife population concerns and the BIGGEST, 25% or 162 animals going to non residents, 40% more than they would usually kill in a year..... And remember, this is from a population of an estimated 45000 moose.

So from this meeting, it sounds like a done deal and that the public "consultation" will be just going through the motions. Still we should all answer the call when it does come out.

Cheers

SS

[high horse Hal]

- Proposed that LEH will be in 2 week increments, so possibly 12 time frames

ffs

[bearvalley]

Why are you better than resident hunters?

Where do you come up with that?
My point was that if outfitters and non resident hunters are erased in BC watch how fast all licensed hunting disappears.
Here’s some points to consider emerson.
How many resident hunters spend countless hours, of their personal time working with government, biologists, First Nations and other stakeholders to work on wildlife issues to ensure we have wildlife and can continue to hunt.
How much predator management is done in the north by hunters from the south like IronNoggin?
Not a hell of a lot.
Many northern BC wildlife studies in recent times have been funded by organizations such as the WSF, SCI & GSCO….that money is secured through auctions attended by non residents for the most part.
Do you think those same hunting organizations are going to support BC if the gate slams shut?
Do you think WSSBC will survive long without the support of the WSF?
How many Air Charter companies in northern BC are outfitter owned emerson?
Do you think they’ll still be around if guys like you and IronNoggin get your wish and the guiding business ends?
I highly doubt it?
There’s a small, core group of outfitter haters…..maybe resident hunters need to study the antics of that group.
That core group might think their BS will end the outfitting industry but they’re also stabbing BC resident hunters in the back as well.
Too bad everyone on this site doesn’t start using their real names.. I bet the wind would go out of a few.

[bearvalley]

The thing is Bearvalley, is that most the GO's in the 7B are not residents. I am not sure the exact numbers, but I believe that most outfits are foreign owned and they have a Canadian as the "Guide Outfitter" and I think a few of those are Americans who hold dual citizenship. So, they really don't give a shit about resident hunters. As long as we don't land on "Their" lake, hunt "their" valley or park at "their" trailhead, they couldn't give two shits about of us and our 486 LEH tags we get. They get 162 tags to sell for an average of ~$8000 US. Not bad for a couple meetings with Government.

A quick update

- It is supposed to be a 2 year "trial" with a review in 2023
- Treaty 8 wishes to get long with their "neighbors"
- Any bull LEH from Sept 1-Nov 15 with rut closure (not sure if that will be all of 7B or just the areas that are already closed)
- Proposed that LEH will be in 2 week increments, so possibly 12 time frames
- Goal is to avoid overlap with Treaty 8 during cultural specific time periods & locations of traditional hunting
- Guide Quota - Based on 5 yr Annual Allowable Harvest(2016-2019) which they claim resulted in 1296 Moose being taken/year the number would be 50/50 (648), but of that 648 for general public that would be split with a Guide Quota of 75/25 - 486 (tel:75/25 - 486) resident, 162 non resident. In other words that would result in a reduction for the general population of roughly 90% opportunity while the GOABC would increase by 40%; TOTALLY UNACCEPTABLE!
- Compulsory Reporting - query if that would extend to both parties to get proper data, Treaty 8 & General Public; seems unfair to require only one side, unrealistic that
scientific definable value can be obtained; when the numbers are split disproportionately between the populations numbers (Treaty 8 vs General public)

Moving forward

- Bring people together (wildlife working group)
• Invest in wildlife habitat restoration, enhancement, protection
• Invest in research and monitoring
• Conduct post-hunting season management reviews
• Make recommendations for 2024

- new terminology OCAP - Ownership Control Access & Possession being used
- Discussion about harmonizing regulations between Region 6, 7A & 7B
✴ Info that Region 7A does already have some restrictions in the Parsnip area
✴ Region 6 has restrictions as a result of access closures

This is the nuts and bolts of a meeting held last week

Biggest issues are: going to LEH to appease a certain group when there is no wildlife population concerns and the BIGGEST, 25% or 162 animals going to non residents, 40% more than they would usually kill in a year..... And remember, this is from a population of an estimated 45000 moose.

So from this meeting, it sounds like a done deal and that the public "consultation" will be just going through the motions. Still we should all answer the call when it does come out.

Cheers

SS
Here’s a question Sitkaspruce …..what’s the authorization ratio of LEH tags for the 486 moose to be harvested.
1:1 or ……?
As we all know, many times multiple LEH tags are issued per expected moose harvest.
Sometimes 10 fold.
Just asking….you seem more in the loop than guides that are affected by this.

[One Shot]

One item that the article failed to mention is the millions of dollars annually that FNs receive annually from oil and gas royalties and possibly similar from forestry.

[HappyJack]

Don't worry BC resident hunters, if you want to hunt bull moose in the Peace you can always hire a guide outfitter they will have guaranteed moose leh tags while the rest of the peasants will have to pay and enter the lottery. But that isn't so bad you can always hunt spike fork in other regions, well except region 5 you have to win an leh tag for there too, or hire one of the wealthy guide outfitters. Money talks apparently. This LEH for residents and free tags for outfitters seems to be expanding across the province, wont be long till they reach their objective of having everything on leh for resident hunters while they have guaranteed access.

[IronNoggin]

... It’s bullshit you’re making this a resident versus outfitter issue when we all got blindsided.
“ Caught red handed” my ass.

Hey Mike, are you now trying to deny the 75 / 25 % split being pushed by you and your cronies??

Really?? http://www.outdoorsmenforum.ca/images/smilies/confused0024.gif

Definitely Red Handed in my books.


Of that 648 for general public that would be split with a Guide Quota of 75/25 - 486 resident, 162 non resident. In other words that would result in a reduction for the general population of roughly 90% opportunity while the GOABC would increase by 40%; TOTALLY UNACCEPTABLE!

Biggest issues are: going to LEH to appease a certain group when there is no wildlife population concerns and the BIGGEST, 25% or 162 animals going to non residents, 40% more than they would usually kill in a year..... And remember, this is from a population of an estimated 45000 moose.


Nailed it Ken. And those in favor of this travesty as well...


Do you think they’ll still be around if guys like you and IronNoggin get your wish and the guiding business ends?

There’s a small, core group of outfitter haters…..maybe resident hunters need to study the antics of that group.

https://www.tnof.ca/styles/default/xenforo/smilies/ROFLMAO.gif

Get over yourself Mike.

I sure as hell do not hate outfitters. I was a guide in two Provinces before moving to the Arctic, then here.
And I also sure as hell do NOT want to see the guiding & outfitting business shut down as you suggest.
I have numerous buddies still in the business in three Provinces, two Territories and numerous Western States, which I get along with royally btw.

What I do detest are those who see and push for an opportunity when resident hunters are being pushed to the wall.
You cannot deny that is exactly what is happening in this case.
Leads me to wonder if yours is one of the areas up for grabs by the FN's which have expressed an interest in doing so (and just how much you would realize from that?), or if you will simply realize an increase in tag numbers as a consequence of this BS...

BTW: My name has been wide open on this, and many many other forums for years.
You???

Ticked & Very Much Rightfully So,
Nog

[huntingfamily]

Instead of taking our anger out on each other, how about we focus on the disaster the NDP party has been for hunting since they took power!
I'm less worried about the ratio than I am about the loss of the g-bear hunt and a sustainable moose hunt being reduced to leh.
I'm afraid of what we will be seeing in the near future...

[KodiakHntr]

The moose hunt going to leh is exactly the same as losing the grizzly hunt. First it is moose leh, then it is a moose closure.

Putting a sustainable population on leh just to manage people being in the woods in the fall isn’t a reasonable first step…

[ElectricDyck]

Instead of taking our anger out on each other, how about we focus on the disaster the NDP party has been for hunting since they took power!
I'm less worried about the ratio than I am about the loss of the g-bear hunt and a sustainable moose hunt being reduced to leh.
I'm afraid of what we will be seeing in the near future...

Yep so true..fighting over crumbs rather than focusing on the politicians who just keep failing...that said maybe we fight over crumbs because we know the fight is already lost..

[Sitkaspruce]

Here’s a question Sitkaspruce …..what’s the authorization ratio of LEH tags for the 486 moose to be harvested.
1:1 or ……?
As we all know, many times multiple LEH tags are issued per expected moose harvest.
Sometimes 10 fold.
Just asking….you seem more in the loop than guides that are affected by this.

Mike

I am not sure on that number, the gov will not release those yet. For shits a giggles, let say the success rate is 30%, which would mean roughly 1600 authorizations, ~300 more than what was killed in the Peace on average, including the guides.

If we run the 30% again (which would be high, probably more like 22-25%, with the antler restrictions), that would mean we had ~4350 hunters in the Peace. Not sure of break down between residents and non.

So we go from ~4350 hunters to ~1600 hunters, a loss of ~2750 (again, not sure of non resident hunters in this mix) hunters who spend money in the Peace. That's a loss of 37%. Oh and math is not my subject, so if I screwed up the numbers, correct away!

What this affects, as much as resident hunters, are all the small businesses that have relied on the resident hunters spending $$$ up and down the Alaska Hwy., the small communities like Tumbler, Chetwynd and Hudsons Hope as well as Dawson and FSJ. Its the tumble down affect, so no matter who hunts, the Peace suffers. Yet the GO's will not be affected, in fact they will probably profit because they can now sell their hunts with no antler restrictions, which will probably increase their price. But that's their business, to make a profit. If only that profit stayed here in BC, or at least Canada.

Not against the GO and their business, in fact I worked as a guide for 15 years and that was some of the best falls I ever had. I am really pissed off that the government has sold us out...again. And it will affect you and all other resident hunters in BC as this crosses the Rockies.

At the end of the day, I think people need to focus on the fact that the Government sold out the resident hunters of BC. We can scream and jump up and down about what the GO got and blame the GO, or blame the FN (I live up here and have seen the destruction, it makes me sick...but that should not affect hunters legally hunting) but that should not be our focus. We need to focus on the NDP Government and their sell out of residents and their managing wildlife by Social methods. THAT HAS TO BE OUR FOCUS!!!

Write letters and send them to all government MLA's, including the Liberals and Kevin Falcon. I believe the BCWF has a form letter for ideas. make some noise and stand up, because if you don't, then you have no right to complain. And don't wait for the BCWF, your local club or your neighbor do it for you, you have to do it yourself....or not.

Cheers

SS

[Rob Chipman]

Here’s a question Sitkaspruce …..what’s the authorization ratio of LEH tags for the 486 moose to be harvested.
1:1 or ……?
As we all know, many times multiple LEH tags are issued per expected moose harvest.
Sometimes 10 fold.
Just asking….you seem more in the loop than guides that are affected by this.

I think you could do everyone here a service if you could walk through how the much discussed 75/25 is not actually a 75/25 split (assuming the math does indeed show that).

I'm not sure the math is really straightforward and it's tough to understand without guide-outfitter experience.

Can you take a stab at doing that?

Right now there is a lot of mistrust and anger among some resident hunters towards guides-outfitters, and if we can put that to rest once and for all it would be helpful.

[canishunter22-250]

It would sure be nice if in addition to the 'LEH Any Bull' they threw out a token 2-point season just so everyone could have a chance to go out hunting every fall (even if it was a long-shot, low-odds hunt). Not that many moose would get shot but it would ensure that the outdoors folks who just want to enjoy the wilderness and take their guns for a walk could at least be able to do that on the 19 years out of 20 that they don't get drawn.

I've always been in favour of points restrictions to meet the allowable harvest because for a given number of moose killed it allows the maximum number of people to get out there and enjoy this amazing province. Ya, sure, you might run into more folks out hunting in the same area but in the grand scheme of things it is far better for our culture and society as far as I'm concerned. Unfortunately the intent of the FN seems to be to limit the number of people on 'their' landscape so this is likely not in their plans. Alienating people from the land (regardless of race) isn't going to lead anywhere good for greater society.

[bearvalley]

Mike

I am not sure on that number, the gov will not release those yet. For shits a giggles, let say the success rate is 30%, which would mean roughly 1600 authorizations, ~300 more than what was killed in the Peace on average, including the guides.

If we run the 30% again (which would be high, probably more like 22-25%, with the antler restrictions), that would mean we had ~4350 hunters in the Peace. Not sure of break down between residents and non.

So we go from ~4350 hunters to ~1600 hunters, a loss of ~2750 (again, not sure of non resident hunters in this mix) hunters who spend money in the Peace. That's a loss of 37%. Oh and math is not my subject, so if I screwed up the numbers, correct away!

What this affects, as much as resident hunters, are all the small businesses that have relied on the resident hunters spending $$$ up and down the Alaska Hwy., the small communities like Tumbler, Chetwynd and Hudsons Hope as well as Dawson and FSJ. Its the tumble down affect, so no matter who hunts, the Peace suffers. Yet the GO's will not be affected, in fact they will probably profit because they can now sell their hunts with no antler restrictions, which will probably increase their price. But that's their business, to make a profit. If only that profit stayed here in BC, or at least Canada.

Not against the GO and their business, in fact I worked as a guide for 15 years and that was some of the best falls I ever had. I am really pissed off that the government has sold us out...again. And it will affect you and all other resident hunters in BC as this crosses the Rockies.

At the end of the day, I think people need to focus on the fact that the Government sold out the resident hunters of BC. We can scream and jump up and down about what the GO got and blame the GO, or blame the FN (I live up here and have seen the destruction, it makes me sick...but that should not affect hunters legally hunting) but that should not be our focus. We need to focus on the NDP Government and their sell out of residents and their managing wildlife by Social methods. THAT HAS TO BE OUR FOCUS!!!

Write letters and send them to all government MLA's, including the Liberals and Kevin Falcon. I believe the BCWF has a form letter for ideas. make some noise and stand up, because if you don't, then you have no right to complain. And don't wait for the BCWF, your local club or your neighbor do it for you, you have to do it yourself....or not.

Cheers

SS
Sitkaspruce, I’m probably as pissed as anyone over the decision to reduce the moose harvest and close caribou in 7B.
The first I heard of this proposal was when Zeman leaked what was coming down even tho it was supposed to be confidential information.
If he hadn’t spoke out this would have been a signed and sealed deal before anyone knew.
From the sounds of it it’s probably done but government does need to hear that unwarranted deals like this are strait BS.
Last Friday this was discussed at a Northeast guides meeting and I’ve got some third hand info.
You’ve probably posted as close of numbers as anyone knows right now.
Really, what the hell is 25% when no one knows what the AAH is going to be.
I’d rather have a GOS.
The crunch will come when government throws out what the number of authorizations will be to harvest 1 LEH moose.
If they go hardline and issue LEH at a 1:1 ratio the spillover into 6 North will be brutal with that being the only GOS moose hunt left in BC along with the last of the open season caribou.
Watch the road blockades go up and they’ll be warranted.
If pressure isn’t backed off, the accessible parts of 6 North will be done as far as hunting, just like most of BC is today.
Government waded into this with little thought other than to appease Treaty 8 members.
An interesting point is that when Treaty 8 boundaries were ruled in Court to be the Arctic/Pacific Divide, that boundary moved westward into traditional territory of other First Nations.
The Tahltan stated they did not recognize Treaty 8 title on their territory.
We can thank the NDP and some bureaucrats for this back door deal…..there sure as hell wasn’t any outfitter pushing this and there’s going to be one or two Northeast outfitters that relied on moose & caribou that will be hard pressed to stay in business.

[2chodi]

LEH for moose in region 7B was first talked about in the mid 1990's, but the spike, or fork, or tri-palm regulation based on what was happening in Alaska at the time was instituted instead. Significant rumours of LEH came forward in early summer of 2021 attributed to a single Treaty 8 band — a subsequent meeting with that band put an end to that rumour. To be clear, the "leak" of the current proposal, with some of the details beyond LEH for moose, came at a Fort Nelson stakeholders' meeting and there were subsequent public postings about the proposal. It was at that time that the BCWF felt it was necessary to do a press release and state its opposition to the proposal and the process through which the proposal was developed.

[HappyJack]

GOABC members have been lobbying to have ALL species in the province put under LEH, people better open their eyes to this fact because resident hunters are losing big time. We quickly forget that RESIDENT HUNTERS are supposed to have priority over NON RESIDENTs, so why do we allow guided hunters while residents are severely restricted or shut out of hunts by the LEH system?

[HappyJack]

IN THE WORDS OF A CONCERNED AND ENLIGHTENED RESIDENT HUNTER......
This WILL come to you in one way or another and will affect your recreational way of life. The time to act is now!! Because when you see in in the Caribou, OK, LML or the Island, it will be too late. I fact it is already on the Island, just look at the number of elk LEH numbers. I used to put in for 1-09C when there was 10 tags and a 35 day season. Now it is 3 tags, in three 10 day seasons, with the GO getting 3 and a season from Sept to mid Nov. Population is stable to increasing. Same for region 6 south, used to out in for 6-4, there used to be 10 tags for each of the 15 day periods. Now it is one tag for each of those periods and now they are looking at reducing the 3 day open bull season to one day, one day!!!

We are slowly being destroyed by a thousand cuts, and yet it seems most are waiting for someone else to step up. Can't do that anymore!!

[leadpillproductions]

Sad thing its just about money and looking good to peta type people . just 1 more was to fcvk us resident hunters. What about the people that actual need to hunt moose to actual feed there family. My thought people are going to be doing some midnight runs.

[HappyJack]

Limited Entry Hunting is not a tool that encourages resident hunter opportunity, participation,recruitment and retention. It is a tool that breaks up hunting parties and destroys the socialfactors which are fundamental to the future of hunting. It is one of several tools which can beused to reduce harvest and should be used as a last resort.

ttps://bccf.com/sites/default/files/LEHReviewOct2009.pdf

[Rob Chipman]

Limited Entry Hunting is not a tool that encourages resident hunter opportunity, participation,recruitment and retention. It is a tool that breaks up hunting parties and destroys the socialfactors which are fundamental to the future of hunting. It is one of several tools which can beused to reduce harvest and should be used as a last resort.

ttps://bccf.com/sites/default/files/LEHReviewOct2009.pdf

You missed a letter in that link. It needs an "h" at the front like this: https://bccf.com/sites/default/files/LEHReviewOct2009.pdf Thanks for pointing us back to that.


Here's another thought I heard expressed by another member of this forum: LEH can very effectively change who hunts what, and that hurts mentorship and recruitment and can result in younger hunters not knowing how to do the activity properly. It's a very wise way to re-frame it. To paraphrase (and I hope I don't butcher it too badly) if you put a species (say moose) on LEH, ostensibly in order to manage demand, but the chance of success is too low, people switch to or concentrate more on hunting something else (say muley or elk). Long term they stop being moose hunters. If you don't hunt moose with your old man or big brother you don't get moose hunting info from them. When you finally do get an LEH draw you may simply be unsuccessful (not a big deal) but you could also make some mistakes that matter.

Not the end of the world, clearly, but it is another negative to associate with LEH, and a reason to restore populations as the response to demand for hunting opportunity and success while maintaining wildlife.

[IronNoggin]

... We can thank the NDP and some bureaucrats for this back door deal…..there sure as hell wasn’t any outfitter pushing this...

Hey. My Ass Mike - why don't you clarify the query I made regarding your own vested interest in this mess, and those of your cronies whom you claim were not pushing for an increase in their quotas??

While you at it, maybe let us know if you are still Bum Buddies with the likes of Hubbard, Glaicar & Froelitch?
Is Hubbard still persona non grata at the GOABC?
Are you actually still welcome there??

Wondering...

Nog

[Rob Chipman]

I think you could do everyone here a service if you could walk through how the much discussed 75/25 is not actually a 75/25 split (assuming the math does indeed show that).

I'm not sure the math is really straightforward and it's tough to understand without guide-outfitter experience.

Can you take a stab at doing that?

Right now there is a lot of mistrust and anger among some resident hunters towards guides-outfitters, and if we can put that to rest once and for all it would be helpful.

I'm bumping this in case bear valley resounds to Nog's invitation to party.

Collaboration among groups that have *some* shared interests is very critical to achieving the goals of many resident hunters.

Distrust between some resident hunters and GOABC runs deep and wide.

There is lots of semi-vague information floating around, and some of it can be reduced to numbers. Once you reduce something to numbers you can winnow out a lot of bullshit, especially if you do the math in public.

So, is the proposed and (as far as I know, still rumoured but correct me if I'm wrong about that) 75% to RH and 25% to guide/outfitters actually less than 75/25 once you dig in? I'm sure the numbers are a bit complex but I, like many, can follow them if they're set down. What a lot of us are missing is inside info to how guide outfitting works up close and personal.

You could be very helpful to all of us on that bear valley. It's great opportunity for you.

[bearvalley]

Hey. My Ass Mike - why don't you clarify the query I made regarding your own vested interest in this mess, and those of your cronies whom you claim were not pushing for an increase in their quotas??

While you at it, maybe let us know if you are still Bum Buddies with the likes of Hubbard, Glaicar & Froelitch?
Is Hubbard still persona non grata at the GOABC?
Are you actually still welcome there??

Wondering...

Nog


I'm bumping this in case bear valley resounds to Nog's invitation to party.

Collaboration among groups that have *some* shared interests is very critical to achieving the goals of many resident hunters.

Distrust between some resident hunters and GOABC runs deep and wide.

There is lots of semi-vague information floating around, and some of it can be reduced to numbers. Once you reduce something to numbers you can winnow out a lot of bullshit, especially if you do the math in public.

So, is the proposed and (as far as I know, still rumoured but correct me if I'm wrong about that) 75% to RH and 25% to guide/outfitters actually less than 75/25 once you dig in? I'm sure the numbers are a bit complex but I, like many, can follow them if they're set down. What a lot of us are missing is inside info to how guide outfitting works up close and personal.

You could be very helpful to all of us on that bear valley. It's great opportunity for you.

Im too busy working on scheduling to fly resident hunters into lakes this fall to play in the sandbox with you boys.
Gerry Paille can answer how allocation, success factors & quota works Rob, he’s on here as 2chodi.
Matt, why wouldn’t I be welcome at GOABC?
Wondering………

[Sitkaspruce]

Lets try to keep this on focus.

Matt and Mike, take it to PM's if you want to talk about BS.

Who cares who pushed what, the focus should be on that it is already done.

Now we need to try to undo or at least salvage what is left and hunters arguing about who did what will get us no where. Remember we need to focus on the NDP and how, once again, they have divided us. They are the masters at it and are doing it again.

Cheers

SS

[HappyJack]

SS~the NDP and GOABC have divided us [just like the LIberals before them], into rich and privileged vs peon residents. I for one notice the common denominator is the guide outfitters. It's always the current governments and the outfitters at the base, and often throwing in hints it's all coming from FNs when it's really them lobbying for more.

I'd bet hard earned money that IF the rule was when the LEH gets implemented for a species that the outfitters would have no access to tags that we wouldn't have nearly as much LEH going on.

[IronNoggin]

...Remember we need to focus on the NDP and how, once again, they have divided us. They are the masters at it and are doing it again.


Roger that Ken.

On it...

Nog

[Would Rather Be Fishing]

Actually, while I appreciate the "lets keep this focussed" comment, may I suggest a second thread on the topic of "how are the numbers allocated" and ""how guide outfitting works up close and personal" as suggested by Rob? I personally would love to get educated on the subject. Unless of course this degenerates to a P1331ng contest...

[IronNoggin]

On it...


I've been asked to speak to our local Fish & Game Club on this matter Tuesday next.
Besides the list of those that should be contacted to express our displeasure in this regard (post # 70 in this thread), are there other steps that I can suggest to these folks??

Wondering...
Nog

[TheObserver]

I seriously wish more hunters and society in general would wake the **** UP and see what is happening in the world. The power elite that run the world DO NOT want you hunting and having weapons to protect yourselves, they want you eating ****** up GMO food not healthy wild game. It is frustrating that the article says "best thing to do write you MLA" this is beyond laughable you think writing politicians who work with government are going to do anything but laugh at what you suggest. lol. The best thing to do would band together and not listen to this BS, cut locks with zip cuts and go in there and hunt, protest it en masse and just say no. Because sitting around and writing scumbags your thoughts is not going to do a damn bloody thing, this is just like the covid agenda's you CAN NOT!!! comply your way out of tyranny

[Bullreaper]

Got a reply from my MLA, Tom Shypitka….


Thank you for reaching out to MLA Shypitka. Tom has asked me to respond on his behalf after discussing your concerns in our office. Tom has advocated regularly for more access, and stood up to be a voice for hunters as this NDP government restricts and removes access. Tom will continue to advocate on your behalf in Victoria, but I also suggest reaching out to the Minister directlyFLNR.Minister@gov.bc.ca which is Minister Katrine Conroy's email. Her office is who has brought in these proposals and she is best placed to act on your email.

Thanks

So in other words, NDP and there majority, will continue with there agenda of eliminating hunting.

[HappyJack]

I seriously wish more hunters and society in general would wake the **** UP and see what is happening in the world. The power elite that run the world DO NOT want you hunting and having weapons to protect yourselves, they want you eating ****** up GMO food not healthy wild game. It is frustrating that the article says "best thing to do write you MLA" this is beyond laughable you think writing politicians who work with government are going to do anything but laugh at what you suggest. lol. The best thing to do would band together and not listen to this BS, cut locks with zip cuts and go in there and hunt, protest it en masse and just say no. Because sitting around and writing scumbags your thoughts is not going to do a damn bloody thing, this is just like the covid agenda's you CAN NOT!!! comply your way out of tyranny

That seems to be the only solution that works to a degree these days.

[KodiakHntr]

Rolled out at a PAC meeting last night…. She’s a done deal.
“we don’t anticipate any feedback that will change this decision”

[IronNoggin]

Rolled out at a PAC meeting last night…. She’s a done deal.
“we don’t anticipate any feedback that will change this decision”

Not at all what I am hearing from some inside sources.
In fact, the matter apparently has Horgan et al more than a little nervous.
The more pressure we put on them the better.

Nog

[IronNoggin]

My presentation to the Alberni Fish & Game Club went very well. Better than I had hoped for.
I will be sending along more information to them shortly, and helping design a template letter.
They are taking this matter to the Region One BCWF meeting soon as an urgent matter of discussion and action.

I would like to suggest that any who can attend the local Fish & Game Club meetings in your Community, and enlighten them on developments in this regard. If you need, I can and will provide a copy of what I presented last night.

Given the political atmosphere that is predominant in this community, it was a pleasant surprise.

I very much hope others will follow suit and inform their local clubs of what is occurring here...

Cheers,
Nog

[huntingfamily]

If you care about the outdoors and you're rights as a hunter. Then act now! This is another step to letting the government know we don't stand for bullshit decisions.

Now is our chance to walk this thing back. Login with your BC FWID, scroll to the bottom and OPPOSE. Let’s act now and let them know we want our wild places managed with science.

AND SHARE THIS TO ANYONE AND EVERYONE WHO CARES ABOUT THE OUTDOORS.

https://apps.nrs.gov.bc.ca/ahte/content/close-peace-caribou-hunts-and-reduce-peace-moose-hunts-region-wide

[Ed George]

7B Moose/Caribou Public Engagement Now Online

apps.nrs.gov.bc.ca/ahte/content/close-peace-caribou-hunts-and-reduce-peace-moose-hunts-region-wide (https://apps.nrs.gov.bc.ca/ahte/content/close-peace-caribou-hunts-and-reduce-peace-moose-hunts-region-wide)

And backgrounder: www2.gov.bc.ca/assets/gov/sports-recreation-arts-and-culture/outdoor-recreation/fishing-and-hunting/hunting/ahte-attachments/backgrounder_hunting_regulation_changes_region_7b. pdf (https://www2.gov.bc.ca/assets/gov/sports-recreation-arts-and-culture/outdoor-recreation/fishing-and-hunting/hunting/ahte-attachments/backgrounder_hunting_regulation_changes_region_7b. pdf)

No options provided for LEH choice i.e. looks like they are going with any bull rather than asking for comments on any bull or SOFT 10.

Allocation is mentioned in the backgrounder, but no specifics.

Closing date for comments is March 23, 2022.


This is the screwing we are getting.


They call it consultation so that they can check that box.

[rageous]

Done and Sent with authority!

[RE1960]

Done plus two family members

[CheesyLimper]

Done and shared. Personally, I think this thread should be in both the Mainland and Island sections of HBC instead of BCWF. More views there and it affects hunting everywhere in the province.

[leadpillproductions]

Done and sent what a freaking joke

[huntingfamily]

Done and shared. Personally, I think this thread should be in both the Mainland and Island sections of HBC instead of BCWF. More views there and it affects hunting everywhere in the province.

I just copied and pasted my last comment over to the thread in the Mainland section...

[high horse Hal]

How best to engage those that communicate through their phones only?

I don't get on FB often, but last night was surprised at how many peeps were just now seeing anything in regard to this issue which some of us on here via PC's have known about for weeks
Not familiar with being addicted to phones, but how do issues get presented and how can they be kept 'upfront' or 'ontop' when incessant scrolling and swiping seems to show how shallow the attention span is

[high horse Hal]

What are thoughts on engaging the Minister of Indigenous Relations and Reconciliation , Murray Rankin ?
He is supposed to be working on harmony for all the people, right?

3 or 4 thousand messages from concerned BC'ers might give him something to loose sleep over?
Staring point here: https://bcwf.bc.ca/peace-region-hunting-regulations/

Then follow up with a pointed but polite letter to your MLA, cc'd to Horgan ( premier@gov.bc.ca (premier@gov.bc.ca)) Katrine Conroy ( FLNR.Minister@gov.bc.ca ) Mike Farnworth (PSSG.Minister@gov.bc.ca )

Go even one better and MAIL a copy to each. Goes a hell of a lot further than an email which any staffer can and will toss.

Nog

[IronNoggin]

What are thoughts on engaging the Minister of Indigenous Relations and Reconciliation , Murray Rankin ?
He is supposed to be working on harmony for all the people, right?

3 or 4 thousand messages from concerned BC'ers might give him something to loose sleep over?

That simply cannot hurt. I will add him to the list when I post up a suggested letter template - most likely tomorrow as I am literally swamped today...

Cheers

[IronNoggin]

Their form of "consultation" is now up and running.
Log in with your BC FWID, scroll to the bottom and hit the OPPOSE Button.

https://apps.nrs.gov.bc.ca/ahte/content/close-peace-caribou-hunts-and-reduce-peace-moose-hunts-region-wide

This is nothing but the government using us as pawns and selling us out in order to continue, and actually escalate the industrial environmental damage being done in this area. Note there is zero mention of the increase in industrial permits these actions have and will allow going down the road, simply a focus on us - the low hanging fruit as it were. Also note than when the Province walked away with the related tentative agreement in hand, they immediately granted 193 more Industrial Permits within the area in question.

Hunting was not even mentioned in the court's proceedings and findings whatsoever.

Not acceptable.

Nog

[Harvest the Land]

Please engage!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BR9W2uGaXac

[Deadshot]

I'm in Abbotsford South and have Bruce Banman giving me a call back tomorrow. He's been in Victoria sitting I understand.
If you're in this riding, call and request the same.
If there's enough of us, I'm down with a face to face.

[whitlers]

Registered an opposed motion and left a comment. Sent the link to a number of my friends. I will be writing a letter this weekend. This is getting stupid

[IronNoggin]

Many Thanks to those whose words inspired and helped create this, You know who you are...

A draft template letter to note your concerns.

I STRONGLY suggest every single one of us send this message to our MLA's with the appropriate cc's as noted:

Date

To:

I am writing to express my extreme concerns regarding your Government’s response to losing the Yahey vs BC (Blueberry River FN decision) wherein the Supreme Court of BC found that the Blueberry River First Nation’s treaty rights to hunt, trap and fish in their territory have been breached by allowing industrial development in Blueberry’s territory at an extensive scale.

Instead of focusing on wildlife management and habitat restoration in the region, and addressing the impacts of industrial activities while providing support for on-the-ground actions that benefit wildlife and habitat in Treaty 8 territory, your government decided to engage in secret backroom deals with the intent of punishing hunters & other recreational users of the area in question.

There is nothing in the court proceedings, findings and decision that specified that resident hunters are or were a problem whatsoever.

The proposed outcome of those secret dealings is to reduce moose hunting opportunities by fifty percent in Region 7b, make most of the area a Limited Entry Hunting Zone, and to completely eliminate all caribou hunting with the Region. Additionally they propose to increase the Guide Outfitter’s share of the remaining quota up to twenty-five percent from the stand nine percent in BC, representing a drastic increase in their allocation and further reducing resident hunting opportunities. This represents wildlife management by social decree, and about as far from scientific management as you can possibly get.

Note that the Peace region has the highest density moose populations in the province. The province’s own data indicates hunting is sustainable and that licensed hunter harvest is extremely low. Caribou populations in the area are also noted as “stable or expanding”. There is no conservation rationale for your government’s approach. It has now become obvious that your Government is willing to negotiate licensed BC hunters’ and recreationists’ opportunities away in favor of Site C, logging, and oil and gas.

This is a an extremely unsettling move by your government, using hunters as pawns and selling them out in order to continue, and actually escalate the very kind of industrial environmental degradation and damage that was the heart of the court case itself. The fact that your party is willing to sacrifice our access and ability to feed our families simply so business can proceed as “normal” is unacceptable. It has come to my attention that after the tentative agreement was in hand, the NDP Government immediately granted over one hundred and ninety industrial permits within the area in question. That I consider both disingenuous and intolerable.

Given your Government’s stated drive to harmonize hunting seasons and numbers in all of Northern BC, we are expecting this same type of secret dealings will occur in Region Six and elsewhere. In fact the Tahltan have already stated they will make sure of that. They also noted the desire of government to harmonize the seasons for moose and caribou in Northern BC, suggesting they will also soon seek a cessation of caribou hunting and a gross reduction of moose harvests by resident hunters.

The Yahey vs BC (Blueberry River FN decision) was about industrial activity, not hunting, and it is extremely inappropriate to punish hunters for the cumulative effects of industrial activity.

The type of division these types of deals create will not help with your stated goals regarding Reconciliation, but rather further fan the flames of distrust and anger between Indigenous and Non Indigenous groups.

Reducing or stopping hunting will not restore fish, wildlife and habitat resources. That takes money and political will, not regulation changes.

The historical BC wildlife / habitat funding graph line is flat as it moves right, and has been for too many years. When adjusted for inflation and growth it actually represents a significant decline in available resources dedicated to properly managing these resources. That level of funding is beyond inadequate, and very much represents the fact we are “managing to zero” in this province.

As a British Columbian, I am deeply concerned that the province is negotiating away opportunities for sustainable hunting instead of confronting the cumulative effects of unsustainable resource extraction.

I am writing you today to directly pose this question: Will you please confirm that you and your Government will act now to protect resident hunter access in Region Seven and beyond from this serious infringement? Further, I directly request an answer to this pressing query.

I am looking forward to your timely response

Yours sincerely,

CC:

Premier John Horgan
( premier@gov.bc.ca )
PO BOX 9041 STN PROV GOVT VICTORIA, BC V8W 9E1

Katrine Conroy Minister of Forests, Lands, Natural Resource Operations and Rural Development
( FLNR.Minister@gov.bc.ca )
Room 248 Parliament Buildings
Victoria, BC V8V 1X4

Mike Farnworth Ministry of Public Safety & Solicitor General
(PSSG.Minister@gov.bc.ca )
PO Box 9282 Stn Prov Govt
Victoria BC V8W 9J7

Murray Rankin Minister of Indigenous Relations and Reconciliation
(IRR.Minister@gov.bc.ca)
Room 323 Parliament Buildings
Victoria, BC V8V 1X4

[IronNoggin]

Ti find your MLA click here: https://www.leg.bc.ca/learn-about-us/members

[CheesyLimper]

Thanks Nog, I used that template for emails (forwarded to everyone I know for their use too) and I also urge everyone to write physical letters as well.

[Deadshot]

Spoke with my MLA yesterday and he was fully aware of what's been proposed. The lib's are figuring out the best approach with John Rustad being the point man on the file. Maybe make Rustad as important for calls and letters about the issue.
He mentioned that the NDP would use the race card at the drop of a hat.
Other than the science, what else do we have?

[high horse Hal]

I really like to stress how this is Gov't building a wedge between BC citizens, whne they are always bragging about inclusion with no discrimination
Gov't building a construct of Us vs Them is no better than talking about 'those people'

Thanks for that template, so easy to forward and share

[Bullreaper]

I don’t have any social media myself, but is all this being shared on Facebook with groups like BC hunting, BC hunting and fishing etc.? I’ve been talking to everybody I know who hunts to raise the issue, and there is a ton of people who had no idea that this was going on.

[IronNoggin]

I don’t have any social media myself, but is all this being shared on Facebook with groups like BC hunting, BC hunting and fishing etc.? I’ve been talking to everybody I know who hunts to raise the issue, and there is a ton of people who had no idea that this was going on.

A quick check verifies that has been done pretty on much all of the main BC Hunting Pages on Facebook.
The couple that did not have it up I rectified.

There are a lot of folks who don't use social media at all.
It now falls to us to get the message to them by word of mouth, and do so SOON!

Many thanks to those joining the ranks in this battle!
For battle it very much is...

Cheers,
Nog

[Downtown]

Why are you better than resident hunters?

Its not a question "whom is better" its a question whom can be better and by far more easily controlled by Government to play by the Rules.

Cheers

[Sitkaspruce]

Along with this utter BS about our moose and caribou hunting up here in the Peace.....

We forgot to add the Treaty 8 Land Entitlement.......land that will be given to the Treaty 8 bands from the agreement in 1914 and the big mess we have all inherited Site C.

https://engage.gov.bc.ca/app/uploads/sites/121/2020/04/Land-Transfers-Questions-and-Answers.pdf

https://engage.gov.bc.ca/govtogetherbc/consultation/land-transfers-in-northeast-british-columbia/ - check out Land Parcel Information to see what they are getting

https://nestakeholderroundtable.ca/app/uploads/sites/573/2021/03/Mar-10-TLE.pdf

It sounds like these lands will be come private property. That includes a good chunk of the bison area, lost of elk and moose crown land and access trails to the back country.

The NDP are using the Peace as a guinea pig to see how tax payers will react, how hunters will react and how they can apply this to the rest of BC. Thats why the Moose and Caribou BS is only for two years. Land settlements and the rest of BC are the next targets.

Will be interesting to see how they spread out the LEH. Will they put more tags in the ag zone, where it is mostly private land and less in the crown land areas?

Cheers

SS

[yama49]

I honestly think letters won't do anything, i think its time we buck up hire a lawyer to fight the governments in court. Any suggestions how we go about this? I know we could easily raise the money.

[Walking Buffalo]

I honestly think letters won't do anything, i think its time we buck up hire a lawyer to fight the governments in court. Any suggestions how we go about this? I know we could easily raise the money.

Not a chance that Letters will change anything.

This has to become a real fight.

[IronNoggin]

I honestly think letters won't do anything...

They certainly won't if you don't send them in!! :roll:

And while I like the thought of litigation, please define the grounds for such.
And understand that any such action against the government automatically means they can and will be using your own money against you, dragging the matter out as long as possible with the intent to bankrupt your side (usually with the aid of government sympathetic judges) and have less than stellar results historically...

Not saying we shouldn't, but we damn well better have ALL our ducks in a row before even considering doing so...

Nog

[yama49]

They certainly won't if you don't send them in!! :roll:

And while I like the thought of litigation, please define the grounds for such.
And understand that any such action against the government automatically means they can and will be using your own money against you, dragging the matter out as long as possible with the intent to bankrupt your side (usually with the aid of government sympathetic judges) and have less than stellar results historically...



Not saying we shouldn't, but we damn well better have ALL our ducks in a row before even considering doing so...

Nog

Im not saying don't send letters, I've sent mine in, signed everything, left comments. i just feel like they could careless . Not saying court is the way I'm asking, but i know well funded groups get a lot more attention then we do. I'm onboard for whatever it takes.

[IronNoggin]

Im not saying don't send letters, I've sent mine in, signed everything, left comments. i just feel like they could careless . Not saying court is the way I'm asking, but i know well funded groups get a lot more attention then we do. I'm onboard for whatever it takes.

Roger that.
Many thanks for stepping up! Right Appreciated! https://www.tnof.ca/styles/default/xenforo/smilies/Pozitive.gif

And just so you know, I too am onboard for whatever it takes to rectify this horrendous situation.

Cheers,
Nog

[leadpillproductions]

I think we have to do what ever we can . Send letters do the petitions . We have to do what ever we can just wished our voices were heard . But I don't think it actually helps . Its all about money and greed when it comes to Canada government . Not my government anymore lol

[rageous]

Is Mike Bridger the 7B biologist?

Was this proposal supported by the gov biologists?

[IronNoggin]

Received a reply from Peter Milobar - MLA Kamloops - North Thompson - Finance Critic

Thank you for your email expressing your concerns regarding the hunting closures being proposed in Region 7b.
As Official Opposition we are also concerned with how things are happening and our MLA's from that area have taken the lead on this issue. They have recently sent a letter, which I have attached for your information. I will make sure to let them know that this issue is also impacting many people from my riding and that they fully understand this.
Thank you again for taking the time to email me.

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY
of BRITISH COLUMBIA
BC Liberal Official Opposition
Parliament Buildings
Victoria, BC V8V 1X4
T: 250-356-6171
BY EMAIL

Honourable Katrine Conroy
Minister of Forests, Lands, Natural Resource Operations and Rural Development
Parliament Buildings
Victoria, BC

March 4, 2022

Dear Minister:

British Columbians are concerned about declining ungulate populations. Decisions surrounding
wildlife management in the province of British Columbia must be science-based and not
political. The vast majority of hunters support science-based wildlife management and are
willing to see reductions in wildlife harvest levels to help ungulate populations recover as
needed.

Constituents concerned with the decision to significantly reduce moose hunting opportunities
in Region 7B in north-eastern British Columbia have written to the Official Opposition, asking
for clarity on the government’s decision-making process. You will find these letters enclosed.

When decisions are made behind closed doors, rumours thrive. When wild salmon returns are
down, all invested parties see restrictions on what can be harvested. This is done publicly and
transparently so that everyone can understand the steps that are being taken. In a similar
fashion, the management of ungulate harvest levels should see reductions across the board
when science demonstrates it is required. It is incumbent on the government to be transparent
with British Columbians and provide the rationale for its recent decision. The Official
Opposition calls on the government to:

• open, meaningful conversations about wildlife management to all concerned parties;

• assure British Columbians have fair and equal access to ungulates similarly as to how
wild salmon populations are managed;

• disclose the data surrounding ungulate populations in the area;

• provide a list of stakeholders the government consulted prior to making the decision;

and

• disclose any economic impact studies on the local area resulting from a reduction in
moose hunting.

The right to hunt and fish by Indigenous Peoples is enshrined in the Canadian constitution. It is
important to uphold these rights so that transparent, science-based decisions regarding
ungulate populations can be supported by all. Thousands of British Columbians rely on hunting
to feed their families and hunters are well-aware of the need for strong wildlife management
practices to ensure wildlife populations are healthy and sustainable for the future.

We look forward to your prompt response.

Sincerely,

John Rustad, MLA Nechako Lakes
Dan Davies, MLA Peace River North
Mike Bernier, MLA Peace River South

[IronNoggin]

The Wild Sheep Society of BC Steps Up:

"The Wild Sheep Society of BC is disheartened to learn that wildlife is once again being used as a bargaining chip. It has come to our attention, along with many concerned stake and title holders across the province that the BC government is making secret deals, with the end goal of putting the entire Region of 7B Peace under moose limited entry, and a complete closure of caribou hunting.

These proposed decisions have been made in blatant contradiction to the Vision, Principles & Goals of Together for Wildlife, the Provincial Wildlife Management Strategy. It is unacceptable that in the adolescence of the Strategy’s implementation its Vision, Principles and Goals are being disregarded in decision making. Instead of upholding these, the proposed decisions are being made under social values, instead of science and evidence-based management and dealing with the cumulative effects of resource extraction.

The WSSBC maintains that it is our intent to recognize and support the rights and title of First Nations in the province and has and will continue to work alongside them on projects. The province needs to put an immediate stop to using wildlife as a pawn in social management decisions that only fuel divisiveness. The division created when we only manage access to wildlife, rather than manage wildlife is unacceptable when the province is committed to implementing Together for Wildlife.

This agreement goes farther than hunting. This affects everyone that uses the outdoors, including hikers, anglers, campers and all who love to embrace the beautiful backcountry. It is imperative to the sustainability of wildlife and habitat, and outdoor recreation that land use decisions, and their associated management plans do not occur in the shadows.

It is critical to sound, successful stewardship that the province supports organizations like ours in building bridges between Stakeholder, Non-Governmental Conservation Organizations and First Nations in pursuit of bettering shared values, rather than place us at ends with one another.

We encourage everyone that is concerned by this to engage their MLA and voice their thoughts in a rational and intelligent manner."

https://www.wildsheepsociety.com/actnow/

They have links to the engagement survey, and present another opportunity to send letters through them to the appropriate MLA & Ministers.

I suggest we all use their suggestions and send them a loud THANKS!

Nog

[Dannybuoy]

The link that says take the survey just goes to the proposal details . Filled out the form .

[IronNoggin]

The link that says take the survey just goes to the proposal details . Filled out the form .

Correct. The survey link takes you to the government survey already listed here.

Filling out the form sends Emails to your MLA, Conroy and Cullen.

Add the latter to your cc / distribution lists:

Another for the cc / distribution list:


Nathan Cullen MLA for Stikine Minister of State for Lands and Natural Resource Operations & Chair of the Environment and Land Use Committee
nathan.cullen.MLA@leg.bc.ca
Room 027 Parliament Buildings
Victoria, BC V8V 1X4

[250 sav]

Received a reply from Peter Milobar - MLA Kamloops - North Thompson - Finance Critic

Thank you for your email expressing your concerns regarding the hunting closures being proposed in Region 7b.
As Official Opposition we are also concerned with how things are happening and our MLA's from that area have taken the lead on this issue. They have recently sent a letter, which I have attached for your information. I will make sure to let them know that this issue is also impacting many people from my riding and that they fully understand this.
Thank you again for taking the time to email me.

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY
of BRITISH COLUMBIA
BC Liberal Official Opposition
Parliament Buildings
Victoria, BC V8V 1X4
T: 250-356-6171
BY EMAIL

Honourable Katrine Conroy
Minister of Forests, Lands, Natural Resource Operations and Rural Development
Parliament Buildings
Victoria, BC

March 4, 2022

Dear Minister:

British Columbians are concerned about declining ungulate populations. Decisions surrounding
wildlife management in the province of British Columbia must be science-based and not
political. The vast majority of hunters support science-based wildlife management and are
willing to see reductions in wildlife harvest levels to help ungulate populations recover as
needed.

Constituents concerned with the decision to significantly reduce moose hunting opportunities
in Region 7B in north-eastern British Columbia have written to the Official Opposition, asking
for clarity on the government’s decision-making process. You will find these letters enclosed.

When decisions are made behind closed doors, rumours thrive. When wild salmon returns are
down, all invested parties see restrictions on what can be harvested. This is done publicly and
transparently so that everyone can understand the steps that are being taken. In a similar
fashion, the management of ungulate harvest levels should see reductions across the board
when science demonstrates it is required. It is incumbent on the government to be transparent
with British Columbians and provide the rationale for its recent decision. The Official
Opposition calls on the government to:

• open, meaningful conversations about wildlife management to all concerned parties;

• assure British Columbians have fair and equal access to ungulates similarly as to how
wild salmon populations are managed;

• disclose the data surrounding ungulate populations in the area;

• provide a list of stakeholders the government consulted prior to making the decision;

and

• disclose any economic impact studies on the local area resulting from a reduction in
moose hunting.

The right to hunt and fish by Indigenous Peoples is enshrined in the Canadian constitution. It is
important to uphold these rights so that transparent, science-based decisions regarding
ungulate populations can be supported by all. Thousands of British Columbians rely on hunting
to feed their families and hunters are well-aware of the need for strong wildlife management
practices to ensure wildlife populations are healthy and sustainable for the future.

We look forward to your prompt response.

Sincerely,

John Rustad, MLA Nechako Lakes
Dan Davies, MLA Peace River North
Mike Bernier, MLA Peace River South

Got the same from Peter

[HappyJack]

Has anyone gotten a response from an NDP MLA??? I've gotten the auto responses, and a few form letters back from bc liberals.

If I had an NDP locally I'd go knock on their office door, person to person gets more attention from them, especially if they think you have money, so dress up nice if you go visiting.

[IronNoggin]

I am trying to get an appointment to meet with Josie Osborne (now a Minister of the newly formed Land, Water and Resource Stewardship Ministry) on an unrelated matter, but will of course bring this issue to her direct attention at the same time.

Replies from all of those NDP I have written have to date simply been an acknowledgement they have received the email / letter. In every single occasion, I send both an email and follow up with a written copy. Hard copy letters actually count for dozens of emails, so is very much worth putting the effort into.

Keep the letters rolling Folks!
This one is damned important!

Cheers,
Matt

[yama49]

Everyone should sign up to https://www.howlforwildlife.org takes a few seconds and they send emails out on our behalf, donate if you can, there's 2400 that have already. There's 12000 members here lets pressure them as much as we can.

[IronNoggin]

Note that the government survey states that comment will be shut down at midnight on the 23rd of March.
However, their own backgrounder and other related pages mark that as the 22nd.

Time to get on with submitting your comments folks.
And it would really be beneficial if we all fired off a letter or two as noted above...

Cheers,
Nog

[IronNoggin]

Both the Blueberry First Nation (all 197 of them) and the government did note what they were going to do with regards to their reaction over the court findings. Oddly enough the vast majority of that simply slid off the table:

https://news.gov.bc.ca/releases/2021IRR0063-001940

Three days remain to get your comments into the government survey:

https://apps.nrs.gov.bc.ca/ahte/content/close-peace-caribou-hunts-and-reduce-peace-moose-hunts-region-wide

[Opinionated Ol Phart]

Keep on pushing Nog-- my time of hunting 'boos and swamp donkeys' in the Peace has passed, but I still hope that the young guys behind me will still get a hint of what was so great and is still worth fighting for. What the government is doing is nothing more than institution racism. With that-- nobody wins.

[Pharma]

Good seeing you supporting and fighting so hard for this Nog,

from one fly fisher to another.

[IronNoggin]

Thanks fellas.
I sincerely see this as the end, and will not stand for it!
Not so much for me as my time out there is getting somewhat limited.
But for all those Young Guns that you and I helped Mentor we MUST defend their future.

And I will fight to my last breath to do so.
Sure as hell wish a lot more would get over their damned apathy and do the same!

This will not only effect us, but those we take along from other parts of the Country...


Permit to Accompany Non-Resident or Non-Resident Aliens to Hunt Big Game

Due to proposed regulation changes in Peace, Skeena, and Omineca regions, Permit to Accompany applications for moose and caribou in these regions are not being reviewed. We recommend submitting applications for moose and caribou after June 1, 2022.

Note that Region Six has already been included...

https://www2.gov.bc.ca/gov/content/sports-culture/recreation/fishing-hunting/hunting/permit-to-accompany

[CheesyLimper]

I started hunting 6 years ago. I've had some success and shared it with you all when I did (and sometimes when I didn't) and hopefully you all noticed that I like to take my family along for the ride.
My 11 year old finished his online CORE course in about 7 hours so he could go caribou hunting with me. What is going on now feels like a gut punch to me because I feel I had been building for this moment with my kids for the last half decade and for no reason, it has been taken away from me.
I appreciate all that you (Nog) and everyone else is doing to fight this decision. You are all welcome at my campfire anytime.
Patrick


Thanks fellas.
I sincerely see this as the end, and will not stand for it!
Not so much for me as my time out there is getting somewhat limited.
But for all those Young Guns that you and I helped Mentor we MUST defend their future.

And I will fight to my last breath to do so.
Sure as hell wish a lot more would get over their damned apathy and do the same!

This will not only effect us, but those we take along from other parts of the Country...


Permit to Accompany Non-Resident or Non-Resident Aliens to Hunt Big Game

Due to proposed regulation changes in Peace, Skeena, and Omineca regions, Permit to Accompany applications for moose and caribou in these regions are not being reviewed. We recommend submitting applications for moose and caribou after June 1, 2022.

Note that Region Six has already been included...

https://www2.gov.bc.ca/gov/content/sports-culture/recreation/fishing-hunting/hunting/permit-to-accompany

[IronNoggin]

... My 11 year old finished his online CORE course in about 7 hours so he could go caribou hunting with me. What is going on now feels like a gut punch to me because I feel I had been building for this moment with my kids for the last half decade and for no reason, it has been taken away from me.


This is very much the case.
Already it is spilling over into adjacent Regions, and growing.
Already 7A and Region 6 have been included in their plans.
Writing is very much on the wall if this proceeds!

Those that are sitting on their laurels thinking this will not effect them, think again!
Already hungry eyes well south of the Peace are turning towards deer and elk.
I suggest it is in your best interest to get involved while you still have the opportunity to do so!!

While limited time remains to get an email or letter (or many of each) headed in the right direction, please note:

Today represents the FINAL DAY to get your comments in to the government survey!

https://apps.nrs.gov.bc.ca/ahte/content/close-peace-caribou-hunts-and-reduce-peace-moose-hunts-region-wide

If you haven't already, please do!!

Cheers & Thanks!
Nog

[Night Hawk 3]

Thanks fellas.
I sincerely see this as the end, and will not stand for it!
Not so much for me as my time out there is getting somewhat limited.
But for all those Young Guns that you and I helped Mentor we MUST defend their future.

And I will fight to my last breath to do so.
Sure as hell wish a lot more would get over their damned apathy and do the same!

This will not only affect us, but those we take along from other parts of the Country...


Permit to Accompany Non-Resident or Non-Resident Aliens to Hunt Big Game

Due to proposed regulation changes in Peace, Skeena, and Omineca regions, Permit to Accompany applications for moose and caribou in these regions are not being reviewed. We recommend submitting applications for moose and caribou after June 1, 2022.

Note that Region Six has already been included...

https://www2.gov.bc.ca/gov/content/sports-culture/recreation/fishing-hunting/hunting/permit-to-accompany


Thanks for posting these additional links.

I have been working on my letters and submissions this morning.

~NH3

[Night Hawk 3]

Thanks for keeping up the fight everyone.

This is my partner's response. Posted with her permission. Feel free to adapt it and use it for your own.


"As a BC woman hunter, an outdoor recreation enthusiast, and a scientist with a PhD, I FULLY OPPOSE all proposed changes. There is absolutely zero conservation rationale for any of these changes. The proposed changes are simply prioritizing resource extraction over resident hunting of a healthy population. The province would be essentially throwing hunting and outdoor recreation "under the bus" in favour of industry.

According to the province's own data(!!), the Peace region has among the highest density of moose populations in the entire province. Current hunting practices are not even beginning to place moose populations under strain, meaning that there is no real reason to convert moose hunting to LEH-only, and reduce it by 50%.

Converting moose hunting to LEH-only would also take away a critical source of food for hundreds of BC families, including my own family. My family relies on moose meat to survive for the entire year. In the future, we would only be able to continue relying on moose meat if one of us in my family is lucky enough to draw a tag AND have the ability to hunt on those specific restricted dates. We enjoy spending time in the outdoors through hunting, and restricting this to a two-week time period (if one of us draws a tag) would change our lives significantly, without actually addressing the problem that the First Nations actually raised in the first place.

These proposed regulations do nothing to address the actual complaint of the First Nations. The First Nations did not request any changes to non-First Nations hunting practices; they took legal action because of industrial development infringing on their treaty rights. Taking away hunting opportunities from non-First Nations individuals would in no way change the situation of industrial development encroaching on the First Nations. Furthermore, the relatively low harvest by non-First Nations individuals means that restricting hunting would not actually lead to better harvests for First Nations anyway.

Please do not approve these proposed changes. Instead, consider the actual scientific data behind hunting practices in the Peace region, and instead make changes to industrial practices that would actually address the First Nations' issues."



Cheers,

NH3

[IronNoggin]

https://www.tnof.ca/styles/default/xenforo/smilies/Good.gifAWESOME!!! https://www.tnof.ca/styles/default/xenforo/smilies/Good.gif

[BRvalley]

that is a great letter!

[Rob Chipman]

It's a great letter.

Another thing that is great? The amount of effort Iron Noggin has been putting into this. Much appreciated.

[HappyJack]

It's a great letter.

Another thing that is great? The amount of effort Iron Noggin has been putting into this. Much appreciated.

He's like a pit bull, teeth into it and shaking his head. Great job Nog, fighting right to the end. You are an inspiration to people that believe in fighting for what they believe in.

[1Whatson]

If the first Nations did not ask for this ,why other Nations west and south are asking for the same thing??Or very soon will once they see that area emptying and hunters going to their territories.It is a domino effect, manny people saw it coming but no one said or did anything.Anyone mentioning something like that here, was told to take their tinfoil hut off.And when we asked for BCWF to become more politically involved, we were told ....BCWF is a conservation organization not a hunting club.All the time taking your money.The same people that associated BCWF with Raincoast.And you were thrown under the bus again.....the same bus from the Allocation.

[thick]

Registration here for the virtual round table with MLA’s next Wednesday Mar 30th. Share with folks and on other threads. A large turnout may be beneficial https://www.eventbrite.ca/e/proposed-hunting-regulations-virtual-roundtable-with-the-bc-liberal-caucus-tickets-298262881307

[igojuone]

Sickening stuff. It’s a damn shame that it won’t get nearly the interaction or interest that some BS Covid thread would though. How can we expect the greater public to take these issues seriously when we as hunters won’t…

Well said, I'm sick of seeing the Covid thread alive and well.

[IronNoggin]

Seems we have been granted a day's grace!
The government site actually appears to still be open for comment!

Inside sources have noted "The government engagement page was bombarded with comments the last few days. Over 98% want the proposal gone."

So Folks, if you haven't already, please take advantage of the one day's grace...

https://apps.nrs.gov.bc.ca/ahte/content/close-peace-caribou-hunts-and-reduce-peace-moose-hunts-region-wide

Cheers & Thanks!
Nog

[IronNoggin]

I would like to extend my personal THANKS to everyone that took a moment to try and defend our outdoors heritage by commenting on the government survey, sending emails through the various platforms that were offering such, and most especially to those who wrote actual letters and sent them in.

Some little time remains to do the latter, as well as hitting the sites offering their form emails.

Your help in this matter was and is Greatly Appreciated!

Let's now hope someone with at least a little common sense is listening on the receiving end...

Cheers,
Matt

[Sitkaspruce]

A couple things that have come to light:

- This was a BRFN (actually Yahey vs the Crown) decision for their own traditional territory, which is about 70-80% covered by industrial activity and private land ownership. So what the judge stated in her decision has some truths. BUT, you all have to ask, why is the decision being applied to all of 7B and the treaty 8 lands, when no other band was involved in the court case and the judge didn't hand down her decision for the rest of the Treaty 8 bands?? Why is lands that have no industrial activity being put on LEH?
- This push by the NDP to go to LEH is really being driven by three treaty 8 bands. In fact, some bands are not enthusiastic about the LEH decision at all.

We are but pawns in a chess game where the king and queen on both sides actually working together to clear the board of the pawns.

BRFN say they have nothing to do with the 7B moose decision. That knocks off another band that is NOT pushing for this decision. Sadly the ones that are have always had the ear of the NDP. And, just for shits and giggles, are the one who have been fighting site C....one problem goes away when you can correct another.

https://www.alaskahighwaynews.ca/for...osures-5196702 (https://www.alaskahighwaynews.ca/fort-st-john/we-have-no-agreement-blueberry-river-first-nations-speaks-out-against-proposed-hunting-closures-5196702)

IF the moose (and deer/elk) decision makes the Site C battle disappear or gets reduced to "meetings", then we will know one of the reasons for the push! Tin hat?? Maybe, but not far off......

Cheers

SS

[Demonical]

I've been following this for some time, I sure hope you guys win, but I have ZERO faith in common sense prevailing, especially when it involves left-wing politics!
This is only my second post here, I apologize if I offend.

As a resident of Alberta, and a visitor to BC, the politics in BC just flat out suck!

Depriving BC residents the right to hunt and handing those to FN, is hardly surprising. Only surprise is that the lefties that run the zoo there didn't attempt it sooner.

No different than the successful cancelation of the grizzly hunt. Yes I know, Alberta also canceled the grizzly hunt... politics.

We come over from Alberta and no BC prov campgrounds that I have found, have electric plug-ins for campers... but they have electric vehicle charging stations. Assinine!
So you are forced to run a genset for your RV. Therefor prov campsites have 100 genset running 2 hours a day... this is better for the environment?

And we visit Kamloops. What a scum bag city... everywhere you look, useless people trolling around pushing shopping carts piled with crap. Theft absolutely rampant. Homeless that crap in public view with no shame.
But hey, they can get all the free needles and methadone they want!

You couldn't pay me to live in that cesspool city.

And I am dead certain that it is the minority in BC that support this leftie crap, yet term after term they seem to get voted back in.

From a distance I cannot figure it out.


Jim

[Opinionated Ol Phart]

https://energeticcity.ca/2022/03/24/141117/?fbclid=IwAR3u5OW9kham4fwVb8NR7YsPu5M9944u7-plq4P4vq6wwD7XmurIHwMz94U

[Jereky]

You’re right. B.C. is a complete joke. Too many wannabe Californians in the lower mainland and island that vote for the social justice issues and have zero idea how the rest of the province works. They think that everything just appears in the store or at the gas pump with zero knowledge of how things work. They bus homeless from Vancouver to the rest of southern BC in an effort to ‘clean up’ the city. It’s a complete disgrace. I live in Kamloops and deal with the scumbags daily whether it be at work or my kids schools. How Vancouver votes, the other 99% of the province pays. Happens with every new contract vote we have. Everyone but the lower mainland votes NO and they vote YES and we are stuck with crappy contracts. Politics here has nothing to do with good governance and everything to do with looking good on paper. Spend $10 to effect $1 change. The NDP has never been good for this province. If I could, I would move back to Alberta and just visit BC, but I can’t so I’m stuck living this nightmare. Somewhere along the line woke politics became the norm here as opposed to just doing what’s best for the whole place.

[Rob Chipman]

https://energeticcity.ca/2022/03/24/141117/?fbclid=IwAR3u5OW9kham4fwVb8NR7YsPu5M9944u7-plq4P4vq6wwD7XmurIHwMz94U


Thanks for that link.

[IronNoggin]

Things that make you go Hmmmmm...

‘We have no agreement’: Blueberry River First Nations speaks out against proposed hunting closures

Blueberry River First Nations Chief Judy Desjarlais says her community had no involvement with the province’s proposal to cut the number of moose that can be harvested in Northeast B.C.

Blueberry River First Nations Chief Judy Desjarlais says her community had no involvement with the province’s proposal to cut the number of moose that can be harvested in Northeast B.C.

“We have no agreement in regards to that decision by the province, what they’ve decided to do, regarding the funding,” said Desjarlais. “That was their own action, it had nothing to do with Blueberry, because we have not reached any agreement with the province, especially with the wildlife impact pertaining to the treaty rights litigation.”

She added that the nation remains at the negotiating table, following their legal victory last summer in winning a cumulative impacts claim against the province.

“We’re working with the province to make it clear that Blueberry had no hand in their decision when it comes to reducing the number of moose hunted,” Desjarlais said.

Under the new terms, caribou hunts would be closed permanently in the Peace Region, while the number of killable number of moose would be slashed to 50%, in addition to cutting the number of hunting licenses available to 50%.

Moose hunting would also be closed from Aug. 15 to 31, and Oct. 1 to 15 in the Peace.

According to a regulation release earlier this month by the province, the hunting changes are expected to be an interim measure and one part of a broader package of actions specific to improving wildlife stewardship, upholding Treaty rights, habitat conservation, and the future of resource management.

“These proposed hunting regulations are aimed at addressing the ability of Treaty 8 First Nations to continue their way of life and begin to address the impacts of industrial development of the rights guaranteed in this Treaty as confirmed in the Supreme Court of BC decision Yahey vs. BC,” reads the release.

Desjarlais said she’s unable to comment on what Blueberry wants to see for moose and caribou management as they remain at the negotiating table with the province.

“We’re still at the table, but first and foremost we would like our Treaty rights protected. As you know from past posts, Treaty rights have been breached when it comes to impacts by development,” said Desjarlais. “The result of that is that is there was a threat to our way of life, which is hunting, fishing, and trapping.”

https://www.alaskahighwaynews.ca/fort-st-john/we-have-no-agreement-blueberry-river-first-nations-speaks-out-against-proposed-hunting-closures-5196702

And from this article: https://energeticcity.ca/2022/03/24/141117/

South Peace MLA Mike Bernier spoke with Energeticcity last week and said he’s concerned the province is creating a racial divide in the Peace with their proposed moose and caribou hunting restrictions.

Bernier believes that the government’s decision is based solely on politics.

“My fear is, and what I’m starting to hear, is that the government is actually creating and continually creating almost a racial divide here. I feel very bad for the First Nations in our region who are being caught in the middle because the government’s making announcements without talking to people without talking to all of the stakeholders and all of the different clubs,” Bernier said.

“The challenge there is I’m even hearing from a lot of First Nations locally that are contacting me kind of off the record saying they are getting very frustrated with the government trying to put them in the middle of this.”

Minister of Forests Katrine Conroy rebuked Bernier’s comments and says the regulations are an attempt to create a better future for everyone residing in the Peace.

“Mr. Bernier’s attempts to stoke racial divides are disturbing and frankly represent an outdated approach. In 2019, all members of the B.C. legislature stood together to support enshrining the Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples into law. Our government remains dedicated to living up to that commitment,” Conroy said.

“Our goal is to bring communities together, not divide them. It’s important to remember that these conversations are focused on addressing the ability of Treaty 8 First Nations to continue their way of life and the impacts of industrial development on their rights,” Conroy said.

Conroy says she has personally met with B.C.’s hunting community members to ensure their views are heard as part of this process.

.................................................. .........

Odd that Conroy won't answer any letters or emails, but has the gall to insist she "has personally met with BC's hunting community members". I call BS on that!

Not at all surprising she trotted out the race card. Somewhat ironic of her considering what she is in the process of promoting...

Nog

[IronNoggin]

Proposed changes to moose hunt not being welcomed

A wave of opposition over a proposal by the provincial government to cut the number of moose that can be harvested in Northeast B.C. is gaining steam.

“Honest to goodness, there has not been a bigger issue that has come across my desk. This is even bigger than Covid,” says North Peace MLA Dan Davies. “The number of calls we’ve received in this office. The emails. I think we’re well over a thousand emails alone,” and that’s from across the province, states Davies.

“This (government decision) is impacting families. Families are that are living off the land, teaching their children to live off the land and being environmental stewards.”

“People are definitely concerned with the lack of consultation. They feel like it’s just being thrown at them,” says Szoo, an avid hunter, who’s also sat in on several public advisory committee meetings. “Something that also has to be cleared up, this is something that is not being asked for by First Nations. This is purely government. There is no user group that has asked for this.”

“Let’s be frank, this is not about the science,” reiterates the area’s MLA. “I was just on a call with FLNRO (Ministry of Forests, Lands, and Natural Resources Operations) who said this is not about the science. It’s a social science decision, and we know that.

https://www.alaskahighwaynews.ca/fort-st-john/proposed-changes-to-moose-hunt-not-being-welcomed-5190390

[IronNoggin]

Dear Premier,

I am exceedingly disappointed that you have chosen to simply ignore my repeated requests for clarification in this matter.
I was under the impression that you and your Government works for us, and are therefore accountable to us to some degree.
I can now clearly ascertain that is not the way you understand it to be.

This is a very serious matter, especially so given the stated concerns of the involved First Nation, outdoor enthusiasts and many more.
It very much appears to be trading away the opportunities of the majority of those groups in order to proceed with further environmental damaging industrial developments. It also very much appears you and your Government did so unilaterally without the explicit consent of the involved First Nation, in direct contrast to what You yourself have stated you will be adhering to now and into the future.

I am now aware of several organizations that are investigating the potential of litigation should this proposal be implemented.
Due to the refusal of yourself and many of your Ministers to provide clarification / justification on the matter, I will be supporting those initiatives as strongly as I possibly can should this proposal be implemented.

Sincerely,

[ElectricDyck]

I listened to the round table of podcasters talk about this issue on beyond the kill Podcast and what nobody mentioned was UNDRIP. They seem to be under the impression that we still have a chance of fighting this and turning things around lol I don't think hunters are hunters are apathetic , I think a lot of people just see the writing on the walls and the way everything is going and see that there is no hope. It's more of a war on truth than war against wildlife... It's happening in Is every facet of life fishing, covid, inflation, gender, Ukraine, house prices childcare, building permits, pipelines...you name it...

In respect to wildlife management one thought is maybe just get it over to the Indians, maybe they'll do a better job? Maybe it'll be better funded?

[HarryToolips]

Dear Premier,

I am exceedingly disappointed that you have chosen to simply ignore my repeated requests for clarification in this matter.
I was under the impression that you and your Government works for us, and are therefore accountable to us to some degree.
I can now clearly ascertain that is not the way you understand it to be.

This is a very serious matter, especially so given the stated concerns of the involved First Nation, outdoor enthusiasts and many more.
It very much appears to be trading away the opportunities of the majority of those groups in order to proceed with further environmental damaging industrial developments. It also very much appears you and your Government did so unilaterally without the explicit consent of the involved First Nation, in direct contrast to what You yourself have stated you will be adhering to now and into the future.

I am now aware of several organizations that are investigating the potential of litigation should this proposal be implemented.
Due to the refusal of yourself and many of your Ministers to provide clarification / justification on the matter, I will be supporting those initiatives as strongly as I possibly can should this proposal be implemented.

Sincerely,

Well written......

[IronNoggin]

... I don't think hunters are hunters are apathetic , I think a lot of people just see the writing on the walls and the way everything is going and see that there is no hope.

The surest way to lose a war is not to engage.

Nog

[walks with deer]

The surest way to lose a war is not to engage.

Nog

Agreed there is a townhall meeting tomorow hosted by are mla in kamloops i encourage all to attend

[ElectricDyck]

The surest way to lose a war is not to engage.

Nog

I agree but I dont think letter writing and signing petitions will have any effect. Somebody on that podcast said they had 55 000 signatures to protest I think it was the caribou recovery closures and it didnt do squat, forgive me if my details are off a bit I was listening while working...

We just had the largest protest in Canadas history and although I think they moved the needle provincially the unvacinated can still not board a plane, train or cross the border or get their jobs back while they move ahead with digital IDs..

I think hunters would need to do something pretty monumental to get the politicians attention enough to overide the UN directive that is supported provincially and federally. After all we hunt for sport, its generally more cost effective to buy a side a beef..I believe they said in the podcast the success rate for moose is 2% in 7b. Unless you are a hunter you just cant understand the value of a yearly moose hunt which makes getting the voting majority behind you next ro impossible and the politicians know it...

[rageous]

Approx 1 in 6 resident hunters are successful in 7b for moose.

[ElectricDyck]

16.6 % ..maybe they said 22% for last year, like I said hard for me to remeber all the details when I listen while I work..

[mooze]

Dear Premier,

I am exceedingly disappointed that you have chosen to simply ignore my repeated requests for clarification in this matter.
I was under the impression that you and your Government works for us, and are therefore accountable to us to some degree.
I can now clearly ascertain that is not the way you understand it to be.

This is a very serious matter, especially so given the stated concerns of the involved First Nation, outdoor enthusiasts and many more.
It very much appears to be trading away the opportunities of the majority of those groups in order to proceed with further environmental damaging industrial developments. It also very much appears you and your Government did so unilaterally without the explicit consent of the involved First Nation, in direct contrast to what You yourself have stated you will be adhering to now and into the future.

I am now aware of several organizations that are investigating the potential of litigation should this proposal be implemented.
Due to the refusal of yourself and many of your Ministers to provide clarification / justification on the matter, I will be supporting those initiatives as strongly as I possibly can should this proposal be implemented.

Sincerely,



GOOD ONE, now we need a GOFUNDME, a lawyer and a Freedom of Information request for the backroom details and we may get somewhere still. I personally thought we were cooked and done.

[DJK]

Agreed there is a townhall meeting tomorow hosted by are mla in kamloops i encourage all to attend


Where and what time is this meeting?

[IronNoggin]

Where and what time is this meeting?

This is happening TONIGHT folks:

Proposed Hunting Regulations Virtual Roundtable with the BC Liberal Caucus

https://www.eventbrite.ca/e/proposed-hunting-regulations-virtual-roundtable-with-the-bc-liberal-caucus-tickets-298262881307

Sign up if you're interested...

Cheers,
Nog

[chilcotin hillbilly]

GOOD ONE, now we need a GOFUNDME, a lawyer and a Freedom of Information request for the backroom details and we may get somewhere still. I personally thought we were cooked and done.

Mooze Freedom of information will not give you any information that would be of any interest. Everything we would love to see will be redacted. The only way you get any information is to take them to court and see the evidence during discovery. then you will see all kinds of good stuff but it will cost us years and $$$$

[IronNoggin]

Joint Statement from Chief Judy Desjarlais and Ministers Conroy & Rankin:

https://blueberryfn.com/statement-from-chief-judy-desjarlais/

Some may infer FN support for this initiative, however I am quite doubtful of that. Not what the Chief said at all: "Blueberry River First Nations has not come to an agreement with the Province on any wildlife measures, including any changes to wildlife regulations".

She does go on to note that: "We believe moose have been affected by over-development and that some temporary measures are required in some areas. As long as wildlife management and habitat restoration are managed sustainably, there can be a healthy hunting industry in future for everyone in northeast BC"

My interpretation would be that the BC Government took what they were alluding to, and ran willy nilly with it, imposing the restrictions over a MUCH LARGER area than that influenced by the FN in question. That they did so unilaterally. That they did so in the face of stable or increasing moose & caribou populations. And that they did so in order to continue with actually increasing the exact same type of environmental degradation / destruction that drove the court case in the first place.

Nog

[Sitkaspruce]

There are three bands pushing this agenda and the BRFN are not one of them. Neither are the Doig or the HRFN.

Here is one of them

www.dawsoncreekmirror.ca/local-news/saulteau-first-nations-calling-on-the-province-to-give-local-hunters-priority-in-limited-moose-hunting-draws-5207371 (http://www.dawsoncreekmirror.ca/local-news/saulteau-first-nations-calling-on-the-province-to-give-local-hunters-priority-in-limited-moose-hunting-draws-5207371)

This band is not even a BC band, they are Cree FN that "moved" from Manitoba in the 1900's and have been given the Peace Moberly Tract for them to manage and that is now off limits to all non FN for moose hunting....to start.

I have said this before, Everyone has to remember that the decision was for the BRFN (actually Chief Yahey) and the excessive development on their traditional territory, not Treaty 8's. Yet somehow, the Government, Saulteau, West Moberly and Prophet River FN's have turned that decision into one that covers all of the Peace. No Caribou hunting at all and a huge reduction of 50% of the licensed resident hunters hunting moose in the Peace. And remember, we have conservatively 45000 moose in the Peace and were harvesting ~1300/year, ~3% of the population. Now we are at 1% if we harvest the reduced number of 489. There is no, zero, zippo conservation concerns with moose in the Peace, yet here we are.

Do the homework, follow the UNDRIP decision and you will soon see that this is already spreading across BC.

Cheers

SS

[Confused1]

Sounds like there will some kind of decision this week.

Regardless of the decision, big thanks to the 2.5% of hunters that took the time to respond to the government engagement site.

[IronNoggin]

Sounds like there will some kind of decision this week.


Quite doubtful actually. The latest I heard was that the earliest we will see anything resembling a decision will be the 15th of this month...

Nog

[IronNoggin]

More "Confidential Discussions" ramping up:

West Moberly First Nations, BC Hydro enter “confidential discussions” on Treaty 8 violation claims over Site C

MOBERLY LAKE, B.C. – A trial that was supposed to begin in March between West Moberly First Nations and BC Hydro over claims that Site C violated Treaty 8 rights has moved to closed door meetings.

West Moberly’s lawsuit filed in 2018 against BC Hydro and the provincial and federal governments was expected to lead to a 120-day trial this year, however, the infringement claim was adjourned.

The update comes from BC Hydro’s annual progress report, stating the “parties to the litigation are continuing confidential discussions to seek to settle this litigation.”

https://energeticcity.ca/2022/03/31/west-moberly-first-nations-bc-hydro-enter-confidential-discussions-on-treaty-8-violation-claims-over-site-c/

[srupp]

hmmm settle this litigation.....anything any indian alledges...passed down via conversations..ends up with feds/whoregans clowns..just continue tossing loads of monies..fish/game/land
complete and utter bullshit..
someone needs to grow a set and tell them all to pound sand..
disgracefull
steven

[Retiredguy]

hmmm settle this litigation.....anything any indian alledges...passed down via conversations..ends up with feds/whoregans clowns..just continue tossing loads of monies..fish/game/land
complete and utter bullshit..
someone needs to grow a set and tell them all to pound sand..
disgracefull
steven

Completely agree. They are so busy tripping over each other with their "virtue signalling" in their quest to show how "woke" they are (god how I hate all of the little buzz words and phrases), that they seem to have given little thought as to what will be left after they give all of the rural parts of the province and control of the natural resources away. If most of the land claim settlements are anything like the one in the Chilcotins...well you better be happy with your wilderness experience being a pre-booked spot at some campground at Cultus Lake. It's coming way faster than you think. Resident hunters should really start paying closer attention as too how many guiding territories and wilderness resorts are already starting to quietly be handed off to local first nations (with government assistance of course). We are currently only seeing the tip of the iceberg.

[Rob Chipman]

hmmm settle this litigation.....
someone needs to grow a set and tell them all to pound sand..
disgracefull
steven



Completely agree. They are so busy tripping over each other with their "virtue signalling" in their quest to show how "woke" they are (god how I hate all of the little buzz words and phrases), that they seem to have given little thought as to what will be left after they give all of the rural parts of the province and control of the natural resources away. If most of the land claim settlements are anything like the one in the Chilcotins...well you better be happy with your wilderness experience being a pre-booked spot at some campground at Cultus Lake. It's coming way faster than you think. Resident hunters should really start paying closer attention as too how many guiding territories and wilderness resorts are already starting to quietly be handed off to local first nations (with government assistance of course). We are currently only seeing the tip of the iceberg.


I hear both of you, and Retiredguy's advice about paying closer attention is 100% correct.

The problem is, how do you "settle this litigation"? There are only two ways: negotiate or win/lose in court.

Neither the Tshilqot'in nor the Yahey decision were politicians tripping over each other trying to virtue signal or show how woke they were. Those were multi-year court battles that the government lost after years of litigation.


My read (personal opinion only) is that the government lost Yahey so badly that they finally understood that appealing it would go nowhere. They decided to settle the issue outside court, by negotiating (which the judge ordered them to do, iirc).

The government did, indeed, throw our money at the problem. They also thought that negotiating away resident hunter and angler access and opportunity would be a good move, which is why so many of us are pissed off.

I mean, are we mad at First Nations because Yahey proved in a court of law that the government had breached a treaty?

Or are we mad at the government for how the government is trying to rectify the breach of the treaty?


When Iron Noggin reports that a trial that was started *four years ago* and scheduled for March between BC Hydro and West Moberly has been postponed in favour of confidential talks" what I hear is "BC Hydro saw how the claim by Yahey that Treaty 8 had been breached turned out and they, BC Hydro, realized that they are going to lose in court so it's smarter to negotiate and try to control the outcome somewhat".

I don't think BC Hydro is wrong. I think Yahey makes it pretty clear that BC Hydro will lose this case.

Treaty 8 is a signed document in black and writing. It's over 100 years old. It's been shown already to have been breached by the government in the Yahey decision. Treaty 8 says it will guarantee FNs rights to hunt, fish, trap and engage in other traditions without interference.


Once that breach was recognized in Yahey how hard is it for someone to conclude "Jeezus. If cumulative effects amount to a breach, WTF is one giant mega-project like Site C going to amount to? Pretty sure that'll count as a breach of the treaty as well. First Nations are going to win this one....too".

BC Hydro had to have recognized how imminent a significant downside is.



If West Moberly wins at court against BC Hydro they seem to be asking for a permanent work stoppage and a return of Site C to it's natural condition.

Let that sink in.

Shit can Site C and return it to its previous condition. That's a big ask, but again, Yahey just proved a breach and West Moberly will be using that as a precedent.

I think most of us understand that negotiation is a pretty good idea for BC Hydro and the government, *especially when they can negotiate away resident hunting and angling*.






Why is this happening? Again, personal opinion and I'll be blunt: although people have been conquering and stealing other peoples' land since the beginning of time, when whitey got to BC whitey failed to properly steal Indigenous land from Indigenous people based on whitey's rules, and Indigenous people are now making whitey pay. Blunt, I understand, but the courts seem to keep coming to that conclusion.

We can argue that it's the fault of First Nations that he government didn't steal the land properly, or that it's the fault of the First Nations that they successfully win their court battles, but that's not where we're going to find any real world satisfaction.


Why does that matter to resident hunters and anglers? I mean, if Retiredguy is correct and we're "only seeing the tip of the iceberg", is it inevitable?

Depends on how you define "it", because what seems inevitable are two things: First Nations are going to win in court and the government (including BC Hydro) will try to offload the pain onto anyone they can rather than take it themselves. That's what's going on with Yahey, and I'd argue that the exact some thing will happen with this case.

Treaty 8 is a big, big area. I think the resident hunters and anglers can make really good argument that we can continue to hunt and fish in that territory in a way that doesn't violate Treaty 8 and that is acceptable to First Nations. We haven't even started to talk about that in earnest.

Resident hunters and anglers can benefit from the huge sums of money being given to First Nations if even a little bit of that hits the ground for habitat and population restoration. Again, we haven't even started to talk about that in earnest.

Right now resident hunters and anglers are just collateral damage in a much bigger picture. The government is clearly very willing to sacrifice us as a starting point.

So, if you define "it" as resident hunters and anglers losing access to the resource, maybe it is inevitable, but right now our government, the guys we vote for and fund, are the guys taking that away. That's the "it" that resident hunters and anglers have to address.

Indigenous peoples are proving in court that they have been the wronged party. We can scream about them winning in court, and we can scream that the government should cowboy up, but if the government does that they end up going to....court. Where they lose.

And after they lose? They've been very happy to throw us under the bus.

It's the government that needs to be told to pound sand, guys. None of us have the power to tell the courts of First Nations to pound sand. We may want to do that, but the facts are that we cannot do so. The law is the law.

We do have the power to tell government to pound sand. Iron Noggin has been doing a great job of getting people to do that. Keep it up, because both srrup and Retiredguy are right: this is bullshit and it's just the tip of the iceberg.

[high horse Hal]

BC gov't never acknowledges BC resident hunters as anything but a bargaining chip, a peace offering not asked for
Marches on the steps of Legislature did nothing in 2015

[Rob Chipman]

BC gov't never acknowledges BC resident hunters as anything but a bargaining chip, a peace offering not asked for
Marches on the steps of Legislature did nothing in 2015

You're not wrong, and I think there's a lesson or two to be drawn from your observation.

We're outgunned by government in many ways so we need to determine how to best identify and exploit the pressure points. A protest in Victoria is great and I won't criticize the efficacy of that event, but we're in a marathon guerrilla war, not one set piece battle.

[RyoTHC]

Anyone that owns land and a house in BC, cash out now while you still can and continue your lifestyle in any other province, stay here and get ready to take it in the rear.

[Sitkaspruce]

I hear both of you, and Retiredguy's advice about paying closer attention is 100% correct.

The problem is, how do you "settle this litigation"? There are only two ways: negotiate or win/lose in court.

Neither the Tshilqot'in nor the Yahey decision were politicians tripping over each other trying to virtue signal or show how woke they were. Those were multi-year court battles that the government lost after years of litigation.


My read (personal opinion only) is that the government lost Yahey so badly that they finally understood that appealing it would go nowhere. They decided to settle the issue outside court, by negotiating (which the judge ordered them to do, iirc).

Rod, I watch a 90 minute presentation put on by the lead counsel for Marvin Yahey, the now past Chief of the BRFN. She put on a great presentation on how the Government, and their agents who act on their behalf (FLNRORD, OGC, MOE etc.) each acted in their own little word and didn't talk between then when they approved development in the BRFN traditional territory. There is examples where O&G and Forestry have side by side roads accessing the same area, all because one wouldn't pay the others road use fees. Or a 10-15 ha chunk of land cleared and leveled for a multi well pad, then the company drills 4 wells and the disturbance is 10-15 ha, when it should have been 2ha. O&G has no responsibility to plant trees when they rehab the land, so they use magic dust (grass seed). That has Forest companies and the FN pissed off as Forest Companies have to reforest most disturbances. It was obvious and I could see the reason why they didn't appeal within the first 20 minutes.

The government did, indeed, throw our money at the problem. They also thought that negotiating away resident hunter and angler access and opportunity would be a good move, which is why so many of us are pissed off.

I mean, are we mad at First Nations because Yahey proved in a court of law that the government had breached a treaty?

Or are we mad at the government for how the government is trying to rectify the breach of the treaty

We need be mad at the Government(s) as this has been on going for a long time, with no thought to the long term affects. It was balls to the walls crazy with development and now we are seeing the results of years of shitty planning and execution of the willy nilly, ad hoc actions of each of the said agencies.

When Iron Noggin reports that a trial that was started *four years ago* and scheduled for March between BC Hydro and West Moberly has been postponed in favour of confidential talks" what I hear is "BC Hydro saw how the claim by Yahey that Treaty 8 had been breached turned out and they, BC Hydro, realized that they are going to lose in court so it's smarter to negotiate and try to control the outcome somewhat".

I don't think BC Hydro is wrong. I think Yahey makes it pretty clear that BC Hydro will lose this case.

Treaty 8 is a signed document in black and writing. It's over 100 years old. It's been shown already to have been breached by the government in the Yahey decision. Treaty 8 says it will guarantee FNs rights to hunt, fish, trap and engage in other traditions without interference.

Once that breach was recognized in Yahey how hard is it for someone to conclude "Jeezus. If cumulative effects amount to a breach, WTF is one giant mega-project like Site C going to amount to? Pretty sure that'll count as a breach of the treaty as well. First Nations are going to win this one....too".

BC Hydro had to have recognized how imminent a significant downside is.

If West Moberly wins at court against BC Hydro they seem to be asking for a permanent work stoppage and a return of Site C to it's natural condition.

Let that sink in.

Shit can Site C and return it to its previous condition. That's a big ask, but again, Yahey just proved a breach and West Moberly will be using that as a precedent.

I think most of us understand that negotiation is a pretty good idea for BC Hydro and the government, *especially when they can negotiate away resident hunting and angling*.

And don't forget the Treaty Land Entitlement, which will make large tracts of land in NEBC become "Private". BC Hydro has entered into agreements with most BC Treaty 8 bands on the impacts of Site C. That will be combination of cash and land.

https://engage.gov.bc.ca/govtogetherbc/consultation/land-transfers-in-northeast-british-columbia/#:~:text=and%20stakeholder%20engagement.-,Treaty%20Land%20Entitlement%20(TLE),to%20a%20popu lation%2Dbased%20formula.

West Moberly and Saulteau are 2 of the three bands pushing for the hunting changes and are also asking for the most land. Look at Saulteau's land clams; most are around lakes that either have camp grounds/rec sites, or are great fishing/recreation sites. Not to blame them, but this will impact resident recreation even more

Why is this happening? Again, personal opinion and I'll be blunt: although people have been conquering and stealing other peoples' land since the beginning of time, when whitey got to BC whitey failed to properly steal Indigenous land from Indigenous people based on whitey's rules, and Indigenous people are now making whitey pay. Blunt, I understand, but the courts seem to keep coming to that conclusion.

We can argue that it's the fault of First Nations that he government didn't steal the land properly, or that it's the fault of the First Nations that they successfully win their court battles, but that's not where we're going to find any real world satisfaction.

Why does that matter to resident hunters and anglers? I mean, if Retiredguy is correct and we're "only seeing the tip of the iceberg", is it inevitable?

Depends on how you define "it", because what seems inevitable are two things: First Nations are going to win in court and the government (including BC Hydro) will try to offload the pain onto anyone they can rather than take it themselves. That's what's going on with Yahey, and I'd argue that the exact some thing will happen with this case.

Treaty 8 is a big, big area. I think the resident hunters and anglers can make really good argument that we can continue to hunt and fish in that territory in a way that doesn't violate Treaty 8 and that is acceptable to First Nations. We haven't even started to talk about that in earnest.

Resident hunters and anglers can benefit from the huge sums of money being given to First Nations if even a little bit of that hits the ground for habitat and population restoration. Again, we haven't even started to talk about that in earnest.

​That will be a BIG job, as most of the disturbance is either roads or leases and neither have to be rehabbed and planted any time soon. They are already rehabbing seismic lines as Caribou are a big ticket item up here, so there is already hundreds of thousands of $$$ being spent on rehab. Plus throw in the wolf kill.....

Right now resident hunters and anglers are just collateral damage in a much bigger picture. The government is clearly very willing to sacrifice us as a starting point.

So, if you define "it" as resident hunters and anglers losing access to the resource, maybe it is inevitable, but right now our government, the guys we vote for and fund, are the guys taking that away. That's the "it" that resident hunters and anglers have to address.

Indigenous peoples are proving in court that they have been the wronged party. We can scream about them winning in court, and we can scream that the government should cowboy up, but if the government does that they end up going to....court. Where they lose.

And after they lose? They've been very happy to throw us under the bus.

It's the government that needs to be told to pound sand, guys. None of us have the power to tell the courts of First Nations to pound sand. We may want to do that, but the facts are that we cannot do so. The law is the law.

We do have the power to tell government to pound sand. Iron Noggin has been doing a great job of getting people to do that. Keep it up, because both srrup and Retiredguy are right: this is bullshit and it's just the tip of the iceberg.

Good post Rob.

People need to wake up, because this is already happening under our noses. Look at the North Island and the fish/DFO issue that just came up, the elk on the island and all the reductions in numbers, reduced access, especially after the fires, access restrictions in other parts of the province. It doesn't matter if it is FN, Y2Y, greenies, Sierra Club etc., it all falls on the Government of the day and them allowing it to happen.

And right now, we are the ONLY government in NA that has implemented UNDRIP and Johnny and gang are all tripping over themselves to get it out the door and reap the benefits!!

Cheers

SS

[walker1985]

I was up at moberly last year and ran into some guys who were taking some data about caribou transplanting in the area. I had no idea there were some caribou up in that area

[Sitkaspruce]

Iron Noggin made the local newspaper......

www.alaskahighwaynews.ca/fort-st-john/hunters-rally-behind-bc-liberals-on-proposed-moose-hunt-changes-5217035 (https://www.alaskahighwaynews.ca/fort-st-john/hunters-rally-behind-bc-liberals-on-proposed-moose-hunt-changes-5217035)

And comments from one of the bands behind the changes

www.alaskahighwaynews.ca/opinion/letters-open-season-on-moose-doesnt-make-sense-5207226 (https://www.alaskahighwaynews.ca/opinion/letters-open-season-on-moose-doesnt-make-sense-5207226)

I do agree with what they are saying about habitat destruction and fragmentation. Is some areas, especially along the foothills from Tumbler to the Graham R, where Saulteau and West Moberly hunt, there has been some recorded loss of moose numbers and it does get crowded. And there is other places where numbers are down. BUT, it is not because of hunting (remember, we have the 2/3/10 rule and most places have a rut closure Oct 1-15). It is because of habitat destruction/fragmentation buy multiple industries caused by a lack of government oversite. Over all, moose are doing well in most places in the Peace and will continue to do so. I am also p*ssed off about the hate speach, threats etc. There is no place in this for that kind of sh*t. If you are angry, focus it at the NDP, they are the creator of this crap we are in.

I don't agree with most everything else they say. IF LEH was so great, then why are moose numbers still going down in other regions in BC where there is LEH?? The BC Government has already stated that all wildlife is owned by ALL people of BC, so they will not give the tags to locals.

And, what they don't say, is they have already got the their own private hunting spot, the Peace Moberly Tract, where no white resident can hunt moose, never.

Remember Bill 14 and this little tidbit

Sheltering

This change enables the minister and First Nations to enter into legally binding agreements on “sheltering.” Sheltering is the practice of a host First Nation permitting a guest First Nation to harvest wildlife within the host’s territory. Permission typically comes with conditions (such as who may hunt what species, when, where and by what means). When a First Nation enters into these agreements with the minister, it will bring provincial laws into alignment with the existing Indigenous laws. This change is expected to improve certainty around data collection and sharing of information on wildlife.

Cheers

SS

[IronNoggin]

Iron Noggin made the local newspaper......

www.alaskahighwaynews.ca/fort-st-john/hunters-rally-behind-bc-liberals-on-proposed-moose-hunt-changes-5217035 (https://www.alaskahighwaynews.ca/fort-st-john/hunters-rally-behind-bc-liberals-on-proposed-moose-hunt-changes-5217035)


At least they didn't spin it or mince words.

Agree with everything else you said Ken.
And doubt the sincerity of the words in the latter article.
Private hunting grounds are the target, while continuing to accept bribes and royalties (which they always have) for the very basis of their court claims. Called having your cake and eating it too, all the while spitefully spitting in the face of your neighbors IMO.

Cheers,
Matt

[IronNoggin]

Of the dozens of letters & Emails I sent out in this regard, the only one that responded was Heyman:


https://i.imgur.com/KmjV7qr.jpg


My response:


You are the Minister of ENVIRONMENT!!
The BC Supreme Court Case which initiated these draconian actions by your party was focused entirely upon Environmental concerns.
Period.


Your attempt to "pass the buck" in this instance is beyond infuriating.


I demand an answer as to your involvement with these matters, and further that you take immediate steps to rectify the stripping away of hunting privileges in order to continue with increased environmental degradation / destruction.


In other words: DO YOUR JOB!

[huntingfamily]

Have your voice heard — another opportunity to get involved in wildlife management decisions.

The Province is seeking feedback on key elements of the draft plan including the plan’s goals & objectives as well as the proposed habitat and population management actions. In addition to the online posting and feedback, opportunities for engagement for stakeholders and communities in Northeast B.C. are scheduled to share information and provide feedback throughout the process.

Engagement timelines: April 4, 2022 – May 20, 2022

https://engage.gov.bc.ca/caribou/boreal-caribou/

[IronNoggin]

Have your voice heard — another opportunity to get involved in wildlife management decisions.

My answer for additional comment:

This government has largely paid lip service to the problems and issues.

And when told by our Supreme Court to deal with habitat / environmental issues, they instead take away hunting privileges for residents, while merrily continuing to issue industrial permits with recognizable impacts to the environment.



Can we now trust them to do what is actually right for a change?

Nog

[Would Rather Be Fishing]

I may have missed it, but from what I read in teh proposal they talk primarily about habitat recovery and predator management, hunting restrictions are not mentioned in that document????



Have your voice heard — another opportunity to get involved in wildlife management decisions.

The Province is seeking feedback on key elements of the draft plan including the plan’s goals & objectives as well as the proposed habitat and population management actions. In addition to the online posting and feedback, opportunities for engagement for stakeholders and communities in Northeast B.C. are scheduled to share information and provide feedback throughout the process.

Engagement timelines: April 4, 2022 – May 20, 2022

https://engage.gov.bc.ca/caribou/boreal-caribou/

[IronNoggin]

I may have missed it, but from what I read in teh proposal they talk primarily about habitat recovery and predator management, hunting restrictions are not mentioned in that document????

That part is saved for the behind-closed-doors chats.

[notahypocrite]

TLDR: When are the proposed changes for moose and caribou coming in? When will we know what the government decides?

[notahypocrite]

https://bcwf.bc.ca/peace-region-hunting-regulations/#newmode-embed-9022-4680 (https://bcwf.bc.ca/peace-region-hunting-regulations/#newmode-embed-9022-46804) Link for being against the proposed changes. sorry if this link is provided somewhere else.

[Gr8 white hunter]

I guess it's time to buy a big chunk of land and make my own rules.

[Rob Chipman]

TLDR: When are the proposed changes for moose and caribou coming in? When will we know what the government decides?

It should be soon. No LEH for '22-23, and I'm sure this 7B thing is one of the reasons. Website still says that "The 2022/23 LEH synopsis will be available on or before theopening date for 2022 Fall LEH applications".

Fingers crossed they'll back off.

[IronNoggin]

... Fingers crossed they'll back off.

Part of me really wants to agree with that.

The other part of me really wants to see them get their asses royally kicked in court.

Nog

[Night Hawk 3]

The other part of me really wants to see them get their asses royally kicked in court.

Nog

This would bring me great pleasure; the BC Government needs to walk out of that court with their tails tucked after being told they are complete idiots for trying to this approach of trying to pit Indigenous peoples against non Indigenous, and giving oil/gas/industrial development (and I am in favor of oil and gas) a get out of jail free card.

I truly hope the judge condemns this approach and calls it out for what it is.

NH3

[Avalanche123]

This would bring me great pleasure; the BC Government needs to walk out of that court with their tails tucked after being told they are complete idiots for trying to this approach of trying to pit Indigenous peoples against non Indigenous, and giving oil/gas/industrial development (and I am in favor of oil and gas) a get out of jail free card.

I truly hope the judge condemns this approach and calls it out for what it is.

NH3

That would be a real good start. Unfortunately it is the tip of the ice berg for what has evolved into govt systemic mismanagement of wildlife in BC.

[Rob Chipman]

Part of me really wants to agree with that.

The other part of me really wants to see them get their asses royally kicked in court.

Nog


Well...there is no question that in the realm of all things Indigenous Relations the decision of the courts has proven, time and again, to be a very important trump card. I don't know the details of any action you're referring to and I understand it's likely much too soon to pull any curtain back, but if the government did get into judge trouble over how they are resolving the Yahey case it would be a very, very interesting development with extremely important repercussions.

That would have to be a ten year battle, minimum, no?

As for the outcome I'm keeping my fingers crossed for, note that I'm not placing bets with real money. I think the writing is on the wall. The government is going to do exactly what it proposed 6 or so weeks ago. We'll be inspecting the underside of the bus - thats' my bet.

[Sitkaspruce]

This would bring me great pleasure; the BC Government needs to walk out of that court with their tails tucked after being told they are complete idiots for trying to this approach of trying to pit Indigenous peoples against non Indigenous, and giving oil/gas/industrial development (and I am in favor of oil and gas) a get out of jail free card.

I truly hope the judge condemns this approach and calls it out for what it is.

NH3

They already did, that's why we are in this mess in the first place. Now they have created an even bigger mess with their back door deals and lack of consultation with the other 97% of the province.

Supposed to find out either later this week or early next.

Cheers

SS

[leadpillproductions]

Maybe if we all decided not to put in for leh .they might get the
picture

[canishunter22-250]

This gov't wouldn't give a shit if nobody put in for LEH. These goofs are basically a band of anti-hunters in the first place so they'd just consider it a win. From their perspective, the lost dollars from LEH applications would be a cheap price to pay for them to see the whole thing shut down. Just like the grizzly hunt - do you think it keeps Horgan up a night thinking about the $80 grizz tags he's now forgoing revenue on?

[HappyJack]

The only thing that will really get their attention is if a massive amount of moose hunters just go out and hunt their moose and fly the bird at the regulations.

""Even when everyone seems to be clear about the consequences of breaking the law, people somehow eventually end up breaking it. To put that into perspective, right from Gandhi’s defiance of British colonial laws over the empire’s monopoly to Martin Luther’s movement for civil rights, rules have always been broken. Hence the confounding question, which is as old as Socrates, remains, “When is it justified for a citizen to act as his own legislator and decide that he will or won’t obey the given law?” While this question may have different answers, I believe that we citizens should be able to differentiate between good and evil. This is to say, if the laws need to be broken for the right cause even with hard consequences, breaking the law can be justified. And if the law protects a society from crime and criminals, it should be complied with.""

https://kathmandupost.com/art-entertainment/2018/08/29/is-breaking-the-law-justifiable

[Ron.C]

This gov't wouldn't give a shit if nobody put in for LEH.

100%. The govt would just say there is no interest and remove if from the LEH the following year.

[TheObserver]

This gov't wouldn't give a shit if nobody put in for LEH. These goofs are basically a band of anti-hunters in the first place so they'd just consider it a win. From their perspective, the lost dollars from LEH applications would be a cheap price to pay for them to see the whole thing shut down. Just like the grizzly hunt - do you think it keeps Horgan up a night thinking about the $80 grizz tags he's now forgoing revenue on?

Exactly man!!

People got to understand behind the curtains your government is owned by bigger players than the faces and names you see om tv. Hint the people who print Canadas worthless fiat paper notes really make the decisions not trudno or whoregan.

Money means nothing to these goofs!!

They have agendas to push/follow and abolishion of guns and hunting is just one of them!

[TheObserver]

The only thing that will really get their attention is if a massive amount of moose hunters just go out and hunt their moose and fly the bird at the regulations.

""Even when everyone seems to be clear about the consequences of breaking the law, people somehow eventually end up breaking it. To put that into perspective, right from Gandhi’s defiance of British colonial laws over the empire’s monopoly to Martin Luther’s movement for civil rights, rules have always been broken. Hence the confounding question, which is as old as Socrates, remains, “When is it justified for a citizen to act as his own legislator and decide that he will or won’t obey the given law?” While this question may have different answers, I believe that we citizens should be able to differentiate between good and evil. This is to say, if the laws need to be broken for the right cause even with hard consequences, breaking the law can be justified. And if the law protects a society from crime and criminals, it should be complied with.""

https://kathmandupost.com/art-entertainment/2018/08/29/is-breaking-the-law-justifiable

Exactlty!! Just like the ashnola indian apparently trying to shut it down. People need to just say no actually f**k you

[IronNoggin]

Long since past the date when the new Regs should have been out.
Questions going unanswered.


A bit of a hint was just posted on the BC Hunting FB site:


https://i.imgur.com/xdqJ7TT.jpg


https://www.facebook.com/groups/therealbchuntingandfishing/

[HappyJack]

Exactlty!! Just like the ashnola indian apparently trying to shut it down. People need to just say no actually f**k you

I don't hunt down there so we will have to leave that up to some locals, if they have the stones to stand up to them.

[jshansen]

Long since past the date when the new Regs should have been out.
Questions going unanswered.


A bit of a hint was just posted on the BC Hunting FB site:


https://i.imgur.com/xdqJ7TT.jpg


https://www.facebook.com/groups/therealbchuntingandfishing/


Trying to wrap my brain around the hint you posted. So they may not be opening the leh for applications until july?

[ElectricDyck]

Sounds like some changes coming for 6 as well...makes sense, all the 7b moose/caribou hunters would flood to 6 if they didn't..times they are a changing.

[IronNoggin]

This just in:

May 12, 2022

Sean Olmstead, President
Scott Ellis, Executive Director and CEO
Guide Outfitters Association of British Columbia
103-19140 28th Avenue
Surrey, British Columbia V3Z 6M3

Dear Sean Olmstead and Scott Ellis:
Thank you for your letters of March 11, 2022, and March 28, 2022, regarding the Peace Region hunting regulation change proposals that had been open for public engagement. The Province of British Columbia appreciates the efforts made by guide outfitters in advancing reconciliation with Indigenous Nations, and the contributions made by guide outfitting in generating economic activity for our rural and remote areas.

The engagement process has now concluded, and we are preparing for a decision which will be finalized shortly. I am aware of the operational challenges your members are facing in the interim. Please appreciate that this complex work is part of meaningful reconciliation with Treaty 8 First Nations and we are ensuring they have input into wildlife management decisions on their traditional territory.

The hunting regulation changes are an interim measure and part of a broader package of actions to improve wildlife stewardship, uphold Treaty rights, and enhance habitat conservation. Over the next two years, the Province and the Treaty 8 First Nations will work together to develop an approach to wildlife co-management that improves our shared understanding and management of the wildlife resources in a manner consistent with the Together for Wildlife Strategy.

Thank you for your continued engagement with David Skerik, Director, Strategic Initiatives, on this file; we are grateful for your input. If you have further information to share, please email David.Skerik@gov.bc.ca.

Again, thank you for writing to share your concerns.


Sincerely,
Katrine Conroy Minister
Ministry of Forests Office of the Minister Mailing Address:
PO Box 9049 Stn Prov Govt
Victoria, BC V8W 9E2
Tel: 250 387-6240
Fax: 250 387-1040
Website: www.gov.bc.ca/for (http://www.gov.bc.ca/for)

pc: Honourable John Horgan, Province of British Columbia
Mike Hykaway, A/Assistant Deputy Minister, North Area, Ministry of Forests
David Skerik, Director, Strategic Initiatives, Northeast Region, Ministry of Forests

https://cdn.fbsbx.com/v/t59.2708-21/281187782_380526757351337_4087182055865043035_n.pd f/269888-response.pdf?_nc_cat=102&ccb=1-6&_nc_sid=0cab14&_nc_ohc=bavWElihho0AX_gqqSs&_nc_ht=cdn.fbsbx.com&oh=03_AVJNfCNcj0TPe5GZM109usFVbZ6r2UGke_rCDMNmLmPd bg&oe=62853EFE&dl=1&fbclid=IwAR3a4THM3cW_bJGPKty9P5jeagII9CrNLtL9QZ3HP DN01ORRsx3EyTb66is

[Gr8 white hunter]

I guess I will have to drive up to the bison farm and buy a bison.

[high horse Hal]

pure bs
There is nothing stopping Gub't from just staying with status quo for another year while they work out their apology strategy
There is no deadline, nothing is going to crash, regulated hunting assures that, moose aren't going to vanish, anyone can still buy at safeway, no one is going to go hungry

But it takes spine to make solid decisions

[rageous]

Tomorrow…..

[elknut]

I sent an email to LimitedEntry.Hunting@gov.bc.ca and got an answer ...The new LEH applications will be coming out in late June ..They have to be passed by govt ...Also hunting regulations will be released late and they will be for 1 year only..So you can make what you want of this info but its looking like there are major changes in the regulations and the LEH system...Dennis