AHTE Reg 4 LEH proposal

[Rackmastr]

For anyone who has submitted or participated in the AHTE regulation proposals, they've included the Reg 4 bighorn LEH for comment until Feb 11th.

Please take the time to comment!

Hunting/Trapping Regulations | AHTE (gov.bc.ca) (https://apps.nrs.gov.bc.ca/ahte/hunting?fbclid=IwAR0CgbbR_XUzMVpPWBKaaM_lhuTFs4vdm TqnUcWkkL-JNNLvJBxwF6Q5XpE)

Also the WSSBC position on it.

WSSBC-Position-Region-4-Proposal-ADM-Muter.pdf (wildsheepsociety.com) (https://www.wildsheepsociety.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/WSSBC-Position-Region-4-Proposal-ADM-Muter.pdf?fbclid=IwAR0UxXL8eP08I5DaR-FMphr6L8iUBIW17Ia6DjCH94Cc3PZeqwDKh8Q2aC8)

[Imdone]

Great letter by the WSSBC. Thanks for your stance.

Hopefully managers will follow true science, and not emotion like the G Bear decisions.

[Blacktail1]

Too bad government always has their mind made up before even issuing consultations. Bc and Canada are phucked , embarrassing to say the least.

[LBM]

yes will comment and will support it going to LEH if set up correctly
Time to think about the wildlife and conservation

[Rackmastr]

Too bad government always has their mind made up before even issuing consultations. Bc and Canada are phucked , embarrassing to say the least.

No doubt. This one sure sounds like they've made their minds up even after consultation with all stakeholders. Its unfortunate, but at least everyone has the opportunity to have their say.

[Bugle M In]

Pretty sure the decision has already been made, imo, but people should add there input nonetheless.
Sadly, I think we will see all sorts of LEH province wide for all sorts of species that are currently GOS.
If we aren't going to see a whole new direction implemented where a ton of money is sunk into Conservation/Habitat,
there wont be any other option left other than to curtail further hunting, even though hunting isn't the issue causing the
declines.

Totally F'd.
Again, time for hunters to get "into politics" to save our wildlife and our hunting heritage.
Writing letters to Anti's and Special Interest Groups that are "actually in power" is an utter waste of time.
Thus has been the case so far.
Doesn't matter how many hunting groups we have.
You have to be situated in the right circles of power, not on the outside any longer!

[IronNoggin]

For anyone who has submitted or participated in the AHTE regulation proposals, they've included the Reg 4 bighorn LEH for comment until Feb 11th.

Please take the time to comment!

Hunting/Trapping Regulations | AHTE (gov.bc.ca) (https://apps.nrs.gov.bc.ca/ahte/hunting?fbclid=IwAR0CgbbR_XUzMVpPWBKaaM_lhuTFs4vdm TqnUcWkkL-JNNLvJBxwF6Q5XpE)

Also the WSSBC position on it.

WSSBC-Position-Region-4-Proposal-ADM-Muter.pdf (wildsheepsociety.com) (https://www.wildsheepsociety.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/WSSBC-Position-Region-4-Proposal-ADM-Muter.pdf?fbclid=IwAR0UxXL8eP08I5DaR-FMphr6L8iUBIW17Ia6DjCH94Cc3PZeqwDKh8Q2aC8)

Done!

And just to note I am firmly in alliance with the WSSBC and firmly against the likes of LBM.
And I let them know that in no uncertain terms.

Nog

[boatdoc]

yes will comment and will support it going to LEH if set up correctly
Time to think about the wildlife and conservation

Do you even hunt? Pretty sure you are some kind of a troll , leaf licking green wiener.
Always throwing us hunters under the bus aren’t you.

[Rob Chipman]

Pretty sure the decision has already been made, imo, but people should add there input nonetheless.



Government needs to hear the message. A non-hunting example of where they'll change their minds is the recent Covid lockdown. They shut down gyms *tight*. It looked as if they weren't going to change their minds but it also became clear that they'd have a revolt on their hands as gym owners (at least around here in the LML) made it clear they'd defy the order. I think that change was prompted, at least in part, by a clear message that allowing the Canucks to be at 50% capacity while completely shutting down gyms was *not* going to fly.

I'm sure LEH has it's place, but it doesn't put more sheep on mountain by addressing habitat, connectivity, disease or over-predation.

I too, support WSSBC's statement. Good work Kyle!

[rageous]

Well done WSSBC.

Not everyone will agree with this positive stance but the overwhelming majority people that truly care will.

[2chodi]

The BCWF in conjunction with the Back Country Hunters and Anglers and the East Kootenay Wildlife association also responded: https://bcwf.bc.ca/bcwf-bc-bha-ekwa-response-to-bighorn-sheep-proposal/

There was also a meeting between these groups and high level regional and provincial government wildlife and habitat staff last week.

The efforts by the WSSBC and the above groups resulted in the EK sheep proposal not being posted on the engagement website along with the rest of the proposals, but as you can see did not result in the withdrawal of the proposal. Take the time to respond and provide a rationale for your position.

[high horse Hal]

The efforts by the WSSBC and the above groups resulted in the EK sheep proposal not being posted on the engagement website along with the rest of the proposals,......I still see when I look

[high horse Hal]

yes will comment and will support it going to LEH if set up correctly
Time to think about the wildlife and conservationokay, I'll bite
What's your rationale for voting for the change to LEH ?
head count? head quality? age class?
or just hunter control?

[Danny_29]

Excellent response. Sums up the situation very well. Every sheep hunter knows the populations are not even close to what they would be with proper funding and management from the provincial goverment.

[Redthies]

Do you even hunt? Pretty sure you are some kind of a troll , leaf licking green wiener.
Always throwing us hunters under the bus aren’t you.

Precisely why I clicked on his user name and clicked “ignore” many years ago.

[Bugle M In]

okay, I'll bite
What's your rationale for voting for the change to LEH ?
head count? head quality? age class?
or just hunter control?
I have no idea where he is coming from....I cant answer that.

I will say this however, and it is the fact that I used to hunt for sheep in R4.
And my Dad way more than I, and in one of the MU's of R4 that was GOS for sheep.
While hunting elk, holding a blowing a bugle in one hand, with the other work the spotting scope pointed up the mtn looking
for sheep.
There was a time where we would always see sheep/rams all the time.
And some decent rams were taken on those mtn's etc.
But, these days you rarely ever spot sheep anymore up there if at all.
Actually, its been a good number of years now since seeing them to be honest.

There certainly is an issue with the sheep, or at least in some parts of R4.
BUT, it certainly wasn't HUNTING that impacted them.
There was a time where the area had plenty of sheep hunters in there.
Probably 3 to 1 vs elk hunters at one time.
But again, success was very limited and if anyone did okay, it was the local GO only.
But again, it wasnt hunting back then that caused any declines and it certainly isnt now.

So, how it turning a GOS season into an LEH season going to correct it??????
IF the issue is not hunting related, it wont be resolved by limiting hunting further.
This is a big issue with policies in regards to hunting all over the province.
It's a piss off to see our Ministry still continues to manage wildlife in such an improper manner.

Stop hunting today, and the beasts will still disappear!

[LBM]

Done!

And just to note I am firmly in alliance with the WSSBC and firmly against the likes of LBM.
And I let them know that in no uncertain terms.

Nog

Funny be against some one that is concerned about wildlife, conservation and wanting to be able to still have a chance to hunt something. But your choice.
Another funny thing probable many that are against the kootenay LEH probable know very little about the area or wildlife spend very little to no time in it
or hunting it yet can voice a opinion on it to have things changed, similar to how the grizzly season was shut down.
Funny how also in the other letter provided they say its about the hunt not the harvest but if goes on LEH they wont want to help the sheep any more
so makes it sound like if they cant kill something they wont help wildlife. Also shows that many of these areas should be closed to hunting sheep since
there below the threshold number, so why arent you pushing for what they say they are supossed to do and have these areas closed. Personally I would like
to see it go LEH so still a chance to hunt it. For example 4-25 would be giving 4 tags but for any ram, 4-35 2 tags and so on. If your happy with a half
curl then fine if you want to keep looking for something bigger your choice but with the full curl system when some one takes a short sheep yes
it does hurt everyone.
I also sure hope those that are against LEH have never applied for one, for then you really have no argument.

[IronNoggin]

Funny be against some one that is concerned about wildlife, conservation and wanting to be able to still have a chance to hunt something.

Funny that you continuously ignore the real problems afoot with wildlife populations, and continue to spout the government line that reduced opportunity will save the day. Especially so when all of the biologists involved point to the fact that hunting is not the issue.

Funny that you come on a hunting site to spew your convoluted ideas that mesh rather well with those of the lackluster & performance failing government. Repeatedly.

Funny? Not So Much. https://www.tnof.ca/styles/default/xenforo/smilies/NotHappy.gif

Miss the days of the Blah Blah Blah emoticon, for in your case it fits extremely well.

Nog

[LBM]

Funny that you continuously ignore the real problems afoot with wildlife populations, and continue to spout the government line that reduced opportunity will save the day. Especially so when all of the biologists involved point to the fact that hunting is not the issue.

Funny that you come on a hunting site to spew your convoluted ideas that mesh rather well with those of the lackluster & performance failing government. Repeatedly.

Funny? Not So Much. https://www.tnof.ca/styles/default/xenforo/smilies/NotHappy.gif

Miss the days of the Blah Blah Blah emoticon, for in your case it fits extremely well.

Nog

Ive never said that reduced opportunity will save the day, that is you guys that keep saying that i do. If you looked you would see that
i have said there was a lot of other issues involved, and in some causes hunting is the issue, for example a couple goat zones that were taking off LEH but had to be put back on because of over hunting.
If you want to do as the biologists suggest then push for a complete closure on the sheep areas that are below the threshold number.
I do not have a problem with LEH.
You and many others do so remember no applying for what your against.

[IronNoggin]

Ive never said that reduced opportunity will save the day...

https://media0.giphy.com/media/lqSMNaqZbJSesdWxTD/giphy.gif

[Rob Chipman]

.... in some causes hunting is the issue, for example a couple goat zones that were taking off LEH but had to be put back on because of over hunting.



I think there's a pretty good argument that the issue there isn't really over-hunting, but rather a not wise management approach that returned unintended consequences (with the obvious question: was anything learned and was a change made?)

[horshur]

LEH management is not going to hurt the sheep..it will sheep hunters.

[blackbart]

I would like to see the age breakdown on the "full curl" rams being harvested. I think that there is a problem with some marginal rams that are young and lamb tipped getting some special cranking treatments before being inspected. I dont want a LEH hunt, but also am kinda sick with those that think shooting a marginal ram and doctoring it is okay. I hunt sheep every year because I love being in the country they live in. I don't hunt sheep with any expectation of killing one. Be super sad if that yearly activity is taken away.....

[J_T]

I spoke with the Government person responsible for these proposals. He pointed out that the Regional biologists wanted more time to discuss this proposal, which is why there is a 'Note', along with the proposal. The note reads:
[NOTE: The posting of this proposal on the Angling, Hunting, and Trapping Public Engagement website was delayed to provide more opportunity for local stakeholders and provincial wildlife managers to explore and discuss alternative options to mitigate concerns regarding mountain sheep populations and harvest rates in the region. The deadline for commenting on this proposal has been set at February 11th to allow people adequate time to provide feedback.]

He added that the notice may not have been done as well as it could have been, but they were clear, they wanted to start to collect feedback as soon as they could. While most regional bios wanted more time to discuss this with stakeholders.

[Bugle M In]

I know where a couple of the largest Ram's came from that are in the BC books.
When they were taken, back in the 80's, for 5 or 6 years, that area was heavily inundated by avid sheep hunters for sure.
But after 10 years, you rarely see anyone in there.
Reason being, those sheep ad their numbers have dwindled away.
Also, it's damn hard country to hunt, with little water to be found and plenty of mountains chained together for them to wander
on.
I know some areas in R4 that hold sheep, tend to have easier access, better trails, and the sheep tend to stay put.
Those areas are under LEH for a long time now.
The few that arent, like i spoke above about, arent heavily hunted by hunters and their success has not been much to be
concerned about, and certainly not harming those sheep.

However, something else certainly is.
Maybe its all the logging, when the sheep come down to winter and all the preds?
As a matter of fact, most of the game in these areas are way down, along with the sheep.

So, limiting hunters wont hurt the sheep, BUT, it isn't going to do much to bring them back either.
All it looks like to me, is just more of the ministry "Managing to 0".
Managing hunter opportunity to 0.
Managing wildlife #'s to 0.

How is limiting hunters going to make it better when the reasons for the declines tend to be other factors to begin with.
Just prolongs the inevitable by a few years, imo.

Terrible management, no money, no pred control, and allowing other special interest groups to just carry on with
"business as usual".

[fullcurlelk]

Going to LEH will have zero positive influence on the breeding sheep population (ewes). This is population biology 101. Of course the ewes are getting bred during the rut. It only takes 1 ram to breed all of them. Going to LEH is to address a powerful lobby group (Guide Outfitters). They have been pushing this agenda for years as it will basically eliminate resident harvest. When the GOs in Reg 6 and 7 see this they will be messaging the politicians and wildlife bios constantly until thinhorns go to LEH.

If it was actually about increasing sheep populations why wouldn't they just shorten the season so both residents and GOs would both be impacted? Because the GOs would scream murder.

If you are a resident hunter who cares about future hunting opportunities for your kids please disagree with this proposal. Send your MLA a letter. It will basically take our opportunity and give it to rich Texans who wont be contributing squat towards habitat. Thinhorns will be next, the GOs are more powerful than the BCWF and resident hunters.

[Imdone]

Well Said ...
The inside talks they have behind closed doors, or thick willow Bush has been going on for years.
They have certainly swayed bios, managers and politicians minds on more than just sheep.

Just ask some retired bios..

[Bugle M In]

Actually, it is the GO's that harvest most of them anyways.
I agree, take their share away then.

[JoeSixPack]

I would like to see the age breakdown on the "full curl" rams being harvested. I think that there is a problem with some marginal rams that are young and lamb tipped getting some special cranking treatments before being inspected. I dont want a LEH hunt, but also am kinda sick with those that think shooting a marginal ram and doctoring it is okay. I hunt sheep every year because I love being in the country they live in. I don't hunt sheep with any expectation of killing one. Be super sad if that yearly activity is taken away.....

There was a link provided on the proposal which covered this. The average age of harvested rams was 8. It also stated that rams in the 6-7 year age class are virtually absent from being harvested in the last 10 years.

[Hunting guy]

I would like to see the age breakdown on the "full curl" rams being harvested. I think that there is a problem with some marginal rams that are young and lamb tipped getting some special cranking treatments before being inspected. I dont want a LEH hunt, but also am kinda sick with those that think shooting a marginal ram and doctoring it is okay. I hunt sheep every year because I love being in the country they live in. I don't hunt sheep with any expectation of killing one. Be super sad if that yearly activity is taken away.....


Agree 100%. Maybe a 1 in 5 year regulation for sheep less than 8 years old but never LEH for full curl sheep.

[Bugle M In]

The sheep disappearing aren't just mature rams.
I don't spot the Eve's and Lamb's as well.
Not like I used to.

Right there it should tell us there are other factors at play and are the real cause for concern.
Some of these GOS area are very tough to access.
Sure, you can get in easy enough, but the sheep can still be plenty far back enough to ever be hunted hard.
I rarely see hunters going after sheep anymore where at one time, it got real busy back in the 80's.

Just wish for once the ministry would start focusing on other factors rather then just managing us.
No wonder the province and the wildlife is so F'd up at this point.
Just another band aid solution that will still see the #'s decline.

The Bio's and Ministry should be really proud about the work they do!!!
IT really shows!!

[IronNoggin]

... Just wish for once the ministry would start focusing on other factors rather then just managing us.
No wonder the province and the wildlife is so F'd up at this point.
Just another band aid solution that will still see the #'s decline.

BINGO! https://www.tnof.ca/styles/default/xenforo/smilies/Pozitive.gif

Show me any politico that will get into the real meat of any matter when they can simply shrug their shoulders and pick the low hanging fruit.
If any actually exist, they are an incredibly rare species IMO.

Nog

[LBM]

BINGO! https://www.tnof.ca/styles/default/xenforo/smilies/Pozitive.gif

Show me any politico that will get into the real meat of any matter when they can simply shrug their shoulders and pick the low hanging fruit.
If any actually exist, they are an incredibly rare species IMO.

Nog
Again many dont have a clue what goes on out there, the ministry is trying some what. A look at the sheep socitys home page
shows some of whats happening with declining numbers.
Having a sheep tag in your pocket well driving around looking for elk and sheep hunting are kind of 2 different things
getting into sheep country will show and teach you more.

[high horse Hal]

Again many dont have a clue what goes on out there, the ministry is trying some what. A look at the sheep socitys home page
shows some of whats happening with declining numbers.
I looked, but not sure what your reference is to. Are you referring to the position statement or the projects?

The 4 page Gov pdf shows what figures and sightings they are using


Having a sheep tag in your pocket well driving around looking for elk and sheep hunting are kind of 2 different things
getting into sheep country will show and teach you more.
More?
do get out often? have you seen changes?

[high horse Hal]

The Gov analysis paper shows they are concerned about the age structure and the inappropriate number of mature breeders
this is also an issue it seems , as well as the overall herd size reduction
Sheep have a different social structure in a healthy herd, older rams play a roll
Making more ewes will take years of effort and some hard decisions, having a healthy breeding herd is easier to accomplish


The sheep disappearing aren't just mature rams.
I don't spot the Eve's and Lamb's as well.
Not like I used to.

[IronNoggin]

Again many dont have a clue what goes on out there, the ministry is trying some what.

You are delusional.
The ministry is not "trying somewhat".
They are knee jerk reacting without the backing of science.
And once again picking off the low hanging fruit (hunting) rather than paying any real attention ($$) towards the real causal agents involved, then identifying how to address those.

They, and you are like a tired old broken record, constantly skipping to the same old proven fruitless beat.

Pitiful

Nog

[Bugle M In]

The Gov analysis paper shows they are concerned about the age structure and the inappropriate number of mature breeders
this is also an issue it seems , as well as the overall herd size reduction
Sheep have a different social structure in a healthy herd, older rams play a roll
Making more ewes will take years of effort and some hard decisions, having a healthy breeding herd is easier to accomplish
Yup, thats a good post right there.

[bearvalley]

The Gov analysis paper shows they are concerned about the age structure and the inappropriate number of mature breeders
this is also an issue it seems , as well as the overall herd size reduction
Sheep have a different social structure in a healthy herd, older rams play a roll
Making more ewes will take years of effort and some hard decisions, having a healthy breeding herd is easier to accomplish

One of the best posts in this thread.
Against the message put forth, it seems the predation issue is being addressed.
As fo disease, what can be done is being done and most likely more coming on that front.
Habitat isn’t an overnight fix.
I don’t think regulating hunters is the only lever being pulled…..but what do I know.

[LBM]

I looked, but not sure what your reference is to. Are you referring to the position statement or the projects?

The 4 page Gov pdf shows what figures and sightings they are using

More?
do get out often? have you seen changes?

in regards to sheep, decline in the WWSBC news says in the past 10 years 200 bighorn sheep have died in a narrow section of highway
near Radium due to collisions with viechles.

[LBM]

You are delusional.
The ministry is not "trying somewhat".
They are knee jerk reacting without the backing of science.
And once again picking off the low hanging fruit (hunting) rather than paying any real attention ($$) towards the real causal agents involved, then identifying how to address those.

They, and you are like a tired old broken record, constantly skipping to the same old proven fruitless beat.

Pitiful

Nog

Some where out today trying, to do some thing.

[high horse Hal]

this guy still points out predation as a problem
https://www.e-know.ca/regions/east-kootenay/a-voice-for-east-kootenay-wildlife/



One of the best posts in this thread.
Against the message put forth, it seems the predation issue is being addressed.
As fo disease, what can be done is being done and most likely more coming on that front.
Habitat isn’t an overnight fix.
I don’t think regulating hunters is the only lever being pulled…..but what do I know.

[high horse Hal]

Some where out today trying, to do some thing.on-the-ground efforts?

[high horse Hal]

One of the best posts in this thread.
Against the message put forth, it seems the predation issue is being addressed.
As fo disease, what can be done is being done and most likely more coming on that front.
Habitat isn’t an overnight fix.
I don’t think regulating hunters is the only lever being pulled…..but what do I know.One would think the horn curl restriction would allow for escapement and preservation of that older component though ? Broomed old buggers need tail too

[bearvalley]

this guy still points out predation as a problem
https://www.e-know.ca/regions/east-kootenay/a-voice-for-east-kootenay-wildlife/

The article is dated 2018
According to a WSSBC exec, predator work is ongoing and took place last year as well.

[bearvalley]

One would think the horn curl restriction would allow for escapement and preservation of that older component though ? Broomed old buggers need tail too

Depends on the number of broomed rams left at the end of the season.
Story is that every legal ram is taken each season.
Legal includes both full curl and 8 by annuli count.
How many 8+ broomed rams are left at the end of hunting season?

[bearvalley]

Going to LEH will have zero positive influence on the breeding sheep population (ewes). This is population biology 101. Of course the ewes are getting bred during the rut. It only takes 1 ram to breed all of them. Going to LEH is to address a powerful lobby group (Guide Outfitters). They have been pushing this agenda for years as it will basically eliminate resident harvest. When the GOs in Reg 6 and 7 see this they will be messaging the politicians and wildlife bios constantly until thinhorns go to LEH.

If it was actually about increasing sheep populations why wouldn't they just shorten the season so both residents and GOs would both be impacted? Because the GOs would scream murder.

If you are a resident hunter who cares about future hunting opportunities for your kids please disagree with this proposal. Send your MLA a letter. It will basically take our opportunity and give it to rich Texans who wont be contributing squat towards habitat. Thinhorns will be next, the GOs are more powerful than the BCWF and resident hunters.

i was going to go by this post but came back to it because it’s both right and wrong.
The current annual harvest of R4 Bighorns has average 32 from what I see.
24 of them have been taken by BC residents and 8 by clients of outfitters under the present GOS/quota management.
75/25
If this goes to LEH, the dreaded allocation policy is implemented and the splits become 60/40.
That would shift 5 rams from the current resident allocation to non residents of guided BC residents.
I believe this issue is being looked at from the opportunity level and not at conservation.

Now to the comment on “some rich Texan who won’t be contributing squat towards habitat”
I would suggest you take that to the WSSBC BOD and let them pass that message up the ladder to the WSF.
That discussion might just bring out who doesn’t contribute squat.
Just saying.

[LBM]

i was going to go by this post but came back to it because it’s both right and wrong.
The current annual harvest of R4 Bighorns has average 32 from what I see.
24 of them have been taken by BC residents and 8 by clients of outfitters under the present GOS/quota management.
75/25
If this goes to LEH, the dreaded allocation policy is implemented and the splits become 60/40.
That would shift 5 rams from the current resident allocation to non residents of guided BC residents.
I believe this issue is being looked at from the opportunity level and not at conservation.

Now to the comment on “some rich Texan who won’t be contributing squat towards habitat”
I would suggest you take that to the WSSBC BOD and let them pass that message up the ladder to the WSF.
That discussion might just bring out who doesn’t contribute squat.
Just saying.

Not according to post #28 he says GOs take most of them.

[LBM]

on-the-ground efforts?


.....yes....

[bearvalley]

Not according to post #28 he says GOs take most of them.

Shows how little he knows.

[Bugle M In]

Well, every time gos goes goes leg, RH always get impacted
more.
Plus they are the folks that have to compete in an actual draw!
GO get allocation and get to see less RH in their zones.
RH leg winner only has his name on permit and non transferable.
Meanwhile, GO. An take multiple clients under same permit if 1st client is unsuccessful until 1 client is.
Wonder how many GO would support this Leh if they had to assign only
1 client name to each permit only???

Afterall, if we are looking for a way to preserve older rams without a downright full on closure, then sure, go leh, 60/40 split , but make GO permits “1 client only”.

Now, who is all in favour of full on RMBH R4 Full on LEH????

[bearvalley]

Well, every time gos goes goes leg, RH always get impacted
more.
Plus they are the folks that have to compete in an actual draw!
GO get allocation and get to see less RH in their zones.
RH leg winner only has his name on permit and non transferable.
Meanwhile, GO. An take multiple clients under same permit if 1st client is unsuccessful until 1 client is.
Wonder how many GO would support this Leh if they had to assign only
1 client name to each permit only???

Afterall, if we are looking for a way to preserve older rams without a downright full on closure, then sure, go leh, 60/40 split , but make GO permits “1 client only”.

Now, who is all in favour of full on RMBH R4 Full on LEH????

You’re pretty full of yourself.
There’s a lot of outfitters that take 1 client per quota tag.
In fact, some book less clients than quota…that’s called conservation.
if it isn’t there …it isn’t there.
How many LEH hunts are issued at 1:1?
I know of several that have 10 or more authorizations handed out for every animal expected to be harvested.
Thats 10:1 while the outfitter is locked in to harvest 1 animal for each allotted quota tag.
Now who operates under the flawed system?
I don’t like LEH any more than you but I respect wildlife to much to wear the “opportunity” blinders.

[Bugle M In]

When i have time, i will get back to you.
But, I knew that would get a strong reply.
How many allocated tags like goat do some GO get and never use and then sell off?

I know its not like that all the time.
I know GO like Assinaboine hunt can on take 3 ram in 5 year etc.

I know GO get "allocation" and dont have to compete for their tags.
And not much we can do about the 70/30 going to 60/40.
All of which is a good deal for GO.
But, we certainly vould make a change to "1 name per permit", just like everybody else.
I know some Go will never finf more than 1 client for their permit/s.
But, some can take mutliple clients under 1 tag till that tag is cut.

All in the name of conservation and fairness.
I know the old GO after he took 2 big rams and his place got overrun by RH beause word got out on laction/s etc.
He suddenly said there were no sheep around and said it should go LEH.
You, asa GO might be of one type.
But, there are other GO that love to see GOS go leh.

As for harvest rates, i spoke to a former guide.
I guess the #'s i got were for all of BC and sheep harvest.
But, i can as
For sure, some areas that are GOS in EK, many of those rams are taken by the GO's.

As for full of myself...whatever.
Just [pointing out some of the differences between RH and GO and the use of LEH permits.
I still think, 1 permit, 1 name (client).
Just like for RH.
I knew that would create some fireworks.

[bearvalley]

Just [pointing out some of the differences between RH and GO and the use of LEH permits.
I still think, 1 permit, 1 name (client).
Just like for RH.
I knew that would create some fireworks.

No fireworks at all…..in fact you’re hardly even making smoke.
I don’t know if you have a clue what you just posted here but I agree with you 100%.
1 permit, 1 name client.
Just like for RH.

You just wrote out the recipe for a 1:1 LEH and didn’t have a clue you did.
A wonderful step away from opportunity and on the path of conservation.

[Bugle M In]

It doesn't really matter.
IMO, this isn't a proposal, but more than likely just a Heads Up, here is what's coming.
But, i know it certainly will impact RH more than any other group.

And if sheep are dying off because they are hit by cars, then please tell me how leh is going to fix that.
Again, different direct harvesting groups that will have different rules and impacted differently.
RH in a boat on shit creek with no paddle (nothing new).
FN on a jet boat powering up shit creek, but the the destination is still a shit pond.
GO in another boat, with paddles, but those paddles are getting smaller.
No wonder its a cake walk for the ministry to just carry on with more and more restrictions.
I know FN dont care what the outcome is.
And i know some GO will enjoy the change (and i am not saying it is all of them, but some)

And i have no clue how Radium sheep being hit by cars and seeing their numbers dwindle are going to be suddenly helped by LEH?
Oh well, dont think i will be hunting much sheep anyways anymore up there anyways.
Guess that means more RH will be looking for hunts up north.
Hey, they got a hunt somewhere!

[bearvalley]

Oh well, dont think i will be hunting much sheep anyways anymore up there anyways.
Guess that means more RH will be looking for hunts up north.
Hey, they got a hunt somewhere!

You act just like a little kid that got slapped away from the cookie jar!
Have you taken the time to read the “Kootenay Region Bighorn Sheep Harvest Management Analysis”(Sept 2021)?
Read it ……you might get what this is about.

Sure a good thing a lot of up north don’t have roads ….anyhow, I’d imagine there’ll most likely be some changes in management up there before too long.
No sense letting the last of the province get wiped out …. is there Bugle.
You gotta remember, we’re hunter conservationists….aren’t we?

[Bugle M In]

No sense in letting the province get wiped out!!1.
Really.

The Assiniboine Sheep have been in decline forever now.
Ever been there?
ITs hard country to get in, just like BCWF and WSS say.
And as they state, the leh season should have been "closed" a long time ago!!
Ever wonder why it isn't??

Someone is making money on it.
Certainly doesn't sound like some have the same concern.
Someone has someone's ear, that's for certain.

As for getting my hand slapped away from the cookie jar...your kidding right!!???
I could care less at this point if it goes LEH, I just know it wont make a difference.
I myself don't have any real need to do those hunts anymore.
I do feel bad for those that now might never get to.

If the actual factors were hunting, I would support it, that's why leh exists.
Even if it isn't hunting related, and numbers are so low, like Assiniboine, then i support it being "closed" completely.

Anyways, I have seen the WSS and BCWF stance in writing and their "rationale", I have not seen anything released from the
GOABC.
Can you direct me please?
I cant seem to find a link??

[bearvalley]

No sense in letting the province get wiped out!!1.
Really.

The Assiniboine Sheep have been in decline forever now.
Ever been there?
ITs hard country to get in, just like BCWF and WSS say.
And as they state, the leh season should have been "closed" a long time ago!!
Ever wonder why it isn't??

Someone is making money on it.
Certainly doesn't sound like some have the same concern.
Someone has someone's ear, that's for certain.

As for getting my hand slapped away from the cookie jar...your kidding right!!???
I could care less at this point if it goes LEH, I just know it wont make a difference.
I myself don't have any real need to do those hunts anymore.
I do feel bad for those that now might never get to.

If the actual factors were hunting, I would support it, that's why leh exists.
Even if it isn't hunting related, and numbers are so low, like Assiniboine, then i support it being "closed" completely.

Anyways, I have seen the WSS and BCWF stance in writing and their "rationale", I have not seen anything released from the
GOABC.
Can you direct me please?
I cant seem to find a link??

Bugle….read the analysis paper.
9 out of 12 of the sub populations of Region 4 Bighorns are under the 75 number.
Any herd less than 75, under the management agreement should not be hunted.
So….really isn’t government being kinda lenient in still allowing an LEH hunt instead of a closure?
As for GOABC not joining in on this…..why would they….maybe they’re smarter than the other 2.
Maybe they’re thinking conservation over opportunity?
I can tell you, I have personally talked to our “provincial sheep & goat specialist” on this matter, and the facts aren’t all being put forth to the public.
And yes, we do have a “sheep specialist” in fact the one I mentioned was recommended by WSSBC for the position and we have a couple of other individuals that are recognized for their wild sheep expertise…..enough so that all 3 sit on the WSF Advisory Board and none of them were engaged in the discussion of Region 4 Bighorn LEH before it was blown up on social media.
Interesting, don’t you think?
Maybe now it’s out in the open as to why the BCWF had a recent webinar presentation put forth recently.
Oh well Bugle …the cats out of the bag now and I guess we’ll see how this plays out.

[koothunter]

Depends on the number of broomed rams left at the end of the season.
Story is that every legal ram is taken each season.
Legal includes both full curl and 8 by annuli count.
How many 8+ broomed rams are left at the end of hunting season?

Up the Elk Valley there is lots left each season. The mines have lots of big rams around. Changing the GOS to LEH will have little or no effect on the overall sheep numbers or health. We have examples all over the province, even lots from R4, where changing to LEH has done nothing to help the population or health of the herds. Since you will probably ask, these examples include: 4-22, Phillips Creek, Salmo, Syringa, and Assiniboine. These herds are all still struggling. There are bigger issues at play than hunting.

[bearvalley]

Up the Elk Valley there is lots left each season. The mines have lots of big rams around. Changing the GOS to LEH will have little or no effect on the overall sheep numbers or health. We have examples all over the province, even lots from R4, where changing to LEH has done nothing to help the population or health of the herds. Since you will probably ask, these examples include: 4-22, Phillips Creek, Salmo, Syringa, and Assiniboine. These herds are all still struggling. There are bigger issues at play than hunting.

I agree with you that there are bigger issues than hunting.
The last thing I’d support is an unwarranted LEH.
That said, social medias a poor way to gather support when all the cards aren’t put on the table.
It kind of reeks of the same style the antis use to shut down predator management.
Also….it stinks when our provincial sheep people are brushed aside in preference of a controversial one.
So what’s needed?
Predator management?
Supposedly that levers being pulled….sounds like it started last year.
Do burns need to happen to enhance habitat?
Thats a touchy subject after the last 4 or 5 years but BC is slowly burning up on its own.
Disease curtailment.
Works been done on that, sounds like more coming.
We can’t stop natural disasters like blue tongue.
Hiways….there’s an issue and MoTI is damn tuff to work with.
Is human pressure an issue?
More and more people are hitting the backcountry be it hunters, hikers, ATV’s…whatever.
Sheep are affected by human pressure.

Now let’s look at what’s going on with sheep hunting province wide.
It’s become a trendy sport …..the in thing to do for the flat hat, bearded types.
License sales show that trend in the upswing of mountain sheep hunts.
2010/11 - 2204
2015/16 - 2523
2020/21 - 3219
That’s a pretty big increase in interest when license sales go from 2204 to 3219 in 10 years.
I listened to the comment from the BCWF spokesman that the proposed R4 LEH would push sheep hunters north.
That is most likely so but the tidal wave has already started.
Going forward, don’t you think what we’re doing as responsible hunters needs scrutiny?
When the math is done, we’re now putting one licensed hunter on the mountain to hunt sheep for about every 9 sheep, rams, ewes & lambs …province wide.
I think all the cards need put on the table and the well being of sheep be put up front.

[koothunter]

I agree with you that there are bigger issues than hunting.
The last thing I’d support is an unwarranted LEH.
That said, social medias a poor way to gather support when all the cards aren’t put on the table.
It kind of reeks of the same style the antis use to shut down predator management.
Also….it stinks when our provincial sheep people are brushed aside in preference of a controversial one.
So what’s needed?
Predator management?
Supposedly that levers being pulled….sounds like it started last year.
Do burns need to happen to enhance habitat?
Thats a touchy subject after the last 4 or 5 years but BC is slowly burning up on its own.
Disease curtailment.
Works been done on that, sounds like more coming.
We can’t stop natural disasters like blue tongue.
Hiways….there’s an issue and MoTI is damn tuff to work with.
Is human pressure an issue?
More and more people are hitting the backcountry be it hunters, hikers, ATV’s…whatever.
Sheep are affected by human pressure.

Now let’s look at what’s going on with sheep hunting province wide.
It’s become a trendy sport …..the in thing to do for the flat hat, bearded types.
License sales show that trend in the upswing of mountain sheep hunts.
2010/11 - 2204
2015/16 - 2523
2020/21 - 3219
That’s a pretty big increase in interest when license sales go from 2204 to 3219 in 10 years.
I listened to the comment from the BCWF spokesman that the proposed R4 LEH would push sheep hunters north.
That is most likely so but the tidal wave has already started.
Going forward, don’t you think what we’re doing as responsible hunters needs scrutiny?
When the math is done, we’re now putting one licensed hunter on the mountain to hunt sheep for about every 9 sheep, rams, ewes & lambs …province wide.
I think all the cards need put on the table and the well being of sheep be put up front.

I agree with 99% of what you just said. I'd be cautious using the # of licenses sold to show how many are actually hunting sheep. Many buy a tag just "in case" or with intentions that never materialize (do that myself some years). I guess my main concern is that changing to LEH is the low hanging fruit and is the easiest to change, but will help the least. I wish some of the other issues you mentioned could be dealt with faster.

[bearvalley]

I agree with 99% of what you just said. I'd be cautious using the # of licenses sold to show how many are actually hunting sheep. Many buy a tag just "in case" or with intentions that never materialize (do that myself some years). I guess my main concern is that changing to LEH is the low hanging fruit and is the easiest to change, but will help the least. I wish some of the other issues you mentioned could be dealt with faster.

The license sales merely show the opportunity BC residents have to hunt mountain sheep.
Nothing else is reflected by it but I should have thrown out the non resident numbers as well.
That shows that 90% of the sheep hunting opportunity is available to BC resident hunters.

BC resident mountain sheep license sales:
2010/11 - 2204
2015/16 - 2523
2020/21 - 3219
now I’m going to shift 1 year back to disallow for the Covid year 2020/21
where only 81 non resident tags were utilized….all to Canadian residents and some by residents of BC due to a closed Border.

Non Resident mountain sheep license sales:
2009/10 - 315
2014/15 - 294
2019-20 - 289

So looking at mountain sheep opportunity from this perspective the ratio is better than 90:10

[LBM]

When i have time, i will get back to you.
But, I knew that would get a strong reply.
How many allocated tags like goat do some GO get and never use and then sell off?

I know its not like that all the time.
I know GO like Assinaboine hunt can on take 3 ram in 5 year etc.

I know GO get "allocation" and dont have to compete for their tags.
And not much we can do about the 70/30 going to 60/40.
All of which is a good deal for GO.
But, we certainly vould make a change to "1 name per permit", just like everybody else.
I know some Go will never finf more than 1 client for their permit/s.
But, some can take mutliple clients under 1 tag till that tag is cut.

All in the name of conservation and fairness.
I know the old GO after he took 2 big rams and his place got overrun by RH beause word got out on laction/s etc.
He suddenly said there were no sheep around and said it should go LEH.
You, asa GO might be of one type.
But, there are other GO that love to see GOS go leh.

As for harvest rates, i spoke to a former guide.
I guess the #'s i got were for all of BC and sheep harvest.
But, i can as
For sure, some areas that are GOS in EK, many of those rams are taken by the GO's.

As for full of myself...whatever.
Just [pointing out some of the differences between RH and GO and the use of LEH permits.
I still think, 1 permit, 1 name (client).
Just like for RH.
I knew that would create some fireworks.

Probable the 2 best rams to come out of chucks area were the Onerheim ram and the Chupa ram
from 1987 only the Onerheim one was outfitted by chuck and guided by Lance
Chupa was a resident there was also a nice one taken in 86 by a resident.
There was quit a few residents after those rams but after they were taken many
went else where to look. Many of those sheep along with many others
in 4-25 and 35 at one time were some what migratory. Some of those ones would
hear right out across the river flats to settlers road up to the summit and down into
Radium, same as many from down towards canal flats would head down the range
towards Radium. This would be in late fall winter then in spring they would head back.
This has some what stopped and now many stay in radium and never leave, many thoughts
on why some feel could be from transplants, when the sheep were captured and relocated
they took the old lead animals from the herd. Could be like why the deer are in so many towns
in the east kootenays. The sheep have been turned in to lawn ornimints or tourist attractions.
They removed hunting from all around the area if a cougar comes near them it is killed
if a dog barks at them its in trouble, the sheep are breed there and have no reason to
leave some would not even no what its like in the bush. With all this protection
people are giving them its causing more of them to be killed by the highway.

[LBM]

Bugle….read the analysis paper.
9 out of 12 of the sub populations of Region 4 Bighorns are under the 75 number.
Any herd less than 75, under the management agreement should not be hunted.
So….really isn’t government being kinda lenient in still allowing an LEH hunt instead of a closure?
As for GOABC not joining in on this…..why would they….maybe they’re smarter than the other 2.
Maybe they’re thinking conservation over opportunity?
I can tell you, I have personally talked to our “provincial sheep & goat specialist” on this matter, and the facts aren’t all being put forth to the public.
And yes, we do have a “sheep specialist” in fact the one I mentioned was recommended by WSSBC for the position and we have a couple of other individuals that are recognized for their wild sheep expertise…..enough so that all 3 sit on the WSF Advisory Board and none of them were engaged in the discussion of Region 4 Bighorn LEH before it was blown up on social media.
Interesting, don’t you think?
Maybe now it’s out in the open as to why the BCWF had a recent webinar presentation put forth recently.
Oh well Bugle …the cats out of the bag now and I guess we’ll see how this plays out.

Some people just dont care about wildlife or conservation, there could be one ewe and one ram left in the country and they would
still think they should be allowed to hunt them. You have your iron noggins your bugles and jesse zemans say do it all by science
Write your MLA to complain well now your just making it a political issue just like the grizzly bear.
Lets just shut those 9 areas down like they said they should the heck with givin them a option of LEH.

[LBM]

I agree with you that there are bigger issues than hunting.
The last thing I’d support is an unwarranted LEH.
That said, social medias a poor way to gather support when all the cards aren’t put on the table.
It kind of reeks of the same style the antis use to shut down predator management.
Also….it stinks when our provincial sheep people are brushed aside in preference of a controversial one.
So what’s needed?
Predator management?
Supposedly that levers being pulled….sounds like it started last year.
Do burns need to happen to enhance habitat?
Thats a touchy subject after the last 4 or 5 years but BC is slowly burning up on its own.
Disease curtailment.
Works been done on that, sounds like more coming.
We can’t stop natural disasters like blue tongue.
Hiways….there’s an issue and MoTI is damn tuff to work with.
Is human pressure an issue?
More and more people are hitting the backcountry be it hunters, hikers, ATV’s…whatever.
Sheep are affected by human pressure.

Now let’s look at what’s going on with sheep hunting province wide.
It’s become a trendy sport …..the in thing to do for the flat hat, bearded types.
License sales show that trend in the upswing of mountain sheep hunts.
2010/11 - 2204
2015/16 - 2523
2020/21 - 3219
That’s a pretty big increase in interest when license sales go from 2204 to 3219 in 10 years.
I listened to the comment from the BCWF spokesman that the proposed R4 LEH would push sheep hunters north.
That is most likely so but the tidal wave has already started.
Going forward, don’t you think what we’re doing as responsible hunters needs scrutiny?
When the math is done, we’re now putting one licensed hunter on the mountain to hunt sheep for about every 9 sheep, rams, ewes & lambs …province wide.
I think all the cards need put on the table and the well being of sheep be put up front.

Highways
more human pressure
Habitat
and overprotecting them.
Those are your main issues

[Rob Chipman]

this guy still points out predation as a problem
https://www.e-know.ca/regions/east-kootenay/a-voice-for-east-kootenay-wildlife/


From that article:

"We need a stand-alone, non-partisan wildlife management agency, 100% funded by hunting licenses and tag fees."


I've spoken to Mr. Clovechok a few times. Good guy in my opinion. One small quibble with his quote, and one that I don't think he'd disagree with: an agency that is 100% funded by hunting tag/license revenue is not the same as an agency that gets 100% of tag/license revenue *plus* other revenue.

Tag and license revenue on it's own is not enough money to do the job.

[bearvalley]

Lets just shut those 9 areas down like they said they should the heck with givin them a option of LEH.

Theres most likely a few provincial biologists that will agree with you right now the way they’ve been thrown out the door.

[IronNoggin]

You’re pretty full of yourself. http://www.outdoorsmenforum.ca/images/smilies/sHa_sarcasticlol.gif

Pot meet Kettle https://www.tnof.ca/styles/default/xenforo/smilies/Agreement.gif

[bearvalley]

http://www.outdoorsmenforum.ca/images/smilies/sHa_sarcasticlol.gif

Pot meet Kettle https://www.tnof.ca/styles/default/xenforo/smilies/Agreement.gif

Matt, is that the best you’ve got.
You might have me trumped on whales & shrimp but any day you want to get into mountain sheep and wildlife politics fly at it.

[Bugle M In]

Actually, this proposal couldn't come at a better time :shock:, imo.
It now has allowed the Assiniboine Sheep Situation to come into the spotlight.
I actually cant think of a better example to "showcase" all that is wrong in BC and Wildlife Management!
The Assiniboine sheep should demonstrate how great the ministry and bio's knowledge and efforts has made wildlife better.
Instead, it's the perfect example of everything that is wrong in BC and shows perfectly the only way these folks know how
to manage it!

Its an area that has been LEH for years!
A very limited amount of tags offered.
Even has a safety for GO to not harvest more that 3 ram in 5 years!
It is extremely hard to access and many RH who win that draw have no idea what they are in for, and generally have their
dream hunt cut short.
On top of that, the Park itself has camera's that have captured more then a few RH and GO using the area not according to the
rules, so its even has a degree of video surveillance going on!!
The habitat (when kept properly) is prime habitat for sheep and even many of the mtns outside the park adjacent to it.
IT has everything going for it to show case how great the "MODEL" is!!
BUT, instead it magnifies exactly how F'd up management is in BC.
It also shows how $$$$ come in front of wildlife protection (as it should be CLOSED!)
And it shows us how lack of money and wrong direction in implementation of what is really needed to protect the sheep and
allow them to flourish is "not" the case.
Every new hunter in BC should "follow this example" of what is wrong and how it is going to further continue to go wrong!

It should be the perfect example of how hunters have not caused the issue!
It shows how the Ministry wants to continue to manage hunters and not the actual causes.
It shows how they want to manage hunters to 0.
It shows how they are managing wildlife to 0

This proposal is happening at the perfect time!!
And their Rationale is the perfect example of how messed their thinking and direction of action is!!

[bearvalley]

Actually, this proposal couldn't come at a better time :shock:, imo.
It now has allowed the Assiniboine Sheep Situation to come into the spotlight.
I actually cant think of a better example to "showcase" all that is wrong in BC and Wildlife Management!
The Assiniboine sheep should demonstrate how great the ministry and bio's knowledge and efforts has made wildlife better.
Instead, it's the perfect example of everything that is wrong in BC and shows perfectly the only way these folks know how
to manage it!

Its an area that has been LEH for years!
A very limited amount of tags offered.
Even has a safety for GO to not harvest more that 3 ram in 5 years!
It is extremely hard to access and many RH who win that draw have no idea what they are in for, and generally have their
dream hunt cut short.
On top of that, the Park itself has camera's that have captured more then a few RH and GO using the area not according to the
rules, so its even has a degree of video surveillance going on!!
The habitat (when kept properly) is prime habitat for sheep and even many of the mtns outside the park adjacent to it.
IT has everything going for it to show case how great the "MODEL" is!!
BUT, instead it magnifies exactly how F'd up management is in BC.
It also shows how $$$$ come in front of wildlife protection (as it should be CLOSED!)
And it shows us how lack of money and wrong direction in implementation of what is really needed to protect the sheep and
allow them to flourish is "not" the case.
Every new hunter in BC should "follow this example" of what is wrong and how it is going to further continue to go wrong!

It should be the perfect example of how hunters have not caused the issue!
It shows how the Ministry wants to continue to manage hunters and not the actual causes.
It shows how they want to manage hunters to 0.
It shows how they are managing wildlife to 0

This proposal is happening at the perfect time!!
And their Rationale is the perfect example of how messed their thinking and direction of action is!!

How many levers can get pulled for Park sheep?
How would you have made it better?

[prairieoysters]

Wild Sheep Society of BC has directed their Government Engagement Committee to directly address the Bighorn Region 4 LEH Hunting Regulation Change Proposal.

Visit: www.wildsheepsociety.com/actnow to make sure the following get a letter from you showing your displeasure:
-BC FLNRORD Minister Conroy,
-Minster of State for Nature Resource Operations Nathan Cullen,
-Region 4 Kootenay Resource Manager (FLNRORD),
-and your MLA that is supposed to represent you.

[fullcurlelk]

i was going to go by this post but came back to it because it’s both right and wrong.
The current annual harvest of R4 Bighorns has average 32 from what I see.
24 of them have been taken by BC residents and 8 by clients of outfitters under the present GOS/quota management.
75/25
If this goes to LEH, the dreaded allocation policy is implemented and the splits become 60/40.
That would shift 5 rams from the current resident allocation to non residents of guided BC residents.
I believe this issue is being looked at from the opportunity level and not at conservation.

Now to the comment on “some rich Texan who won’t be contributing squat towards habitat”
I would suggest you take that to the WSSBC BOD and let them pass that message up the ladder to the WSF.
That discussion might just bring out who doesn’t contribute squat.
Just saying.

I can guarantee that if R4 sheep go to LEH GO harvest will double and resident harvest will be a rare event. The harvest record also shows that if they reduced the season by 10 days both resident and GO harvest would drop achieving the same results but impacting both GO and residents. Tell me how reducing mature males will increase the breeding ewe population? No data, no science and goes against common population biology philosophy. In fact, increases in intra specific competition on the limited winter range might even hurt ewes.

I realize funds from WSSBC raffled hunts go towards habitat restoration. Tell me how much money goes towards restoration when a normal GO hunting sold for $30k? Zero. Who pays biologist salaries, population inventories etc. Tax payers.

[bearvalley]

I can guarantee that if R4 sheep go to LEH GO harvest will double and resident harvest will be a rare event. The harvest record also shows that if they reduced the season by 10 days both resident and GO harvest would drop achieving the same results but impacting both GO and residents. Tell me how reducing mature males will increase the breeding ewe population? No data, no science and goes against common population biology philosophy. In fact, increases in intra specific competition on the limited winter range might even hurt ewes.

I realize funds from WSSBC raffled hunts go towards habitat restoration. Tell me how much money goes towards restoration when a normal GO hunting sold for $30k? Zero. Who pays biologist salaries, population inventories etc. Tax payers.

I find it interesting that WSSBC’s CEO spent some time recently at the WSF’s convention in Reno, they even had Kyle as an MC one night.
Several posts were put on social media by WSSBC applauding the WSF raising over $10M in the name of conservation to go back into sheep projects.
You’re going to tell me that none of that money comes back to BC and no Region 4 Guide Outfitters donate hunts or contribute in any other way to help the WSF fundraiser.
This might be a real interesting conversation to take up with the WSF.
In this case it doesn’t really matter who’s paying the biologists salaries….it seems like no one’s listening to them anyhow.

[bearvalley]

Wild Sheep Society of BC has directed their Government Engagement Committee to directly address the Bighorn Region 4 LEH Hunting Regulation Change Proposal.

Visit: www.wildsheepsociety.com/actnow (http://www.wildsheepsociety.com/actnow) to make sure the following get a letter from you showing your displeasure:
-BC FLNRORD Minister Conroy,
-Minster of State for Nature Resource Operations Nathan Cullen,
-Region 4 Kootenay Resource Manager (FLNRORD),
-and your MLA that is supposed to represent you.

Michael, a question for you.
With the WSSBC having ties to the WSF …. has the Region 4 Bighorn issue been discussed with the WSF and have the WSF’s exec and biologists been provided an opportunity to weigh in on this?
Theres a lot of expertise in that group, they’ve done work all over North America and have invested seriously into BC wild sheep.
Im curious if WSF supports the social media campaign that’s taking place.

[high horse Hal]

BC Gov 7-page analysis paper appears to have some serious science to it, and is being used as the supporting knowledge toward this proposal.
Is anyone disputing the content ?
Is there missing data that could be more important?

If there is any data anywhere that indicates what a particular bighorn population has to be to be viable and sustainable, that info has to be considered

Its not just about how the piece of pie gets served, it has to be about the pie

may be best to table the proposal until the picture is more clear

[bearvalley]

BC Gov 7-page analysis paper appears to have some serious science to it, and is being used as the supporting knowledge toward this proposal.
Is anyone disputing the content ?
Is there missing data that could be more important?

If there is any data anywhere that indicates what a particular bighorn population has to be to be viable and sustainable, that info has to be considered

Its not just about how the piece of pie gets served, it has to be about the pie

may be best to table the proposal until the picture is more clear

I doubt many have seen that analysis paper.
It stated that when a herd population drops below 75 a hunting closure is recommended.
This was a number agreed to by all parties when the Region 4 Bighorn Management plan was drafted.
With the state of Kootenay Bighorns today, 9 out of 12 populations have dropped below the 75 threshold.
How do 9 out of 12 of those sheep populations warrant a GOS?
Not enough information was released to the public before this went to social media.

[Rackmastr]

I doubt many have seen that analysis paper.
It stated that when a herd population drops below 75 a hunting closure is recommended.
This was a number agreed to by all parties when the Region 4 Bighorn Management plan was drafted.
With the state of Kootenay Bighorns today, 9 out of 12 populations have dropped below the 75 threshold.
How do 9 out of 12 of those sheep populations warrant a GOS?
Not enough information was released to the public before this went to social media.

Whats the answer in your opinion? You've posted regarding WSSBC and WSF stance on it and your curiosity regarding WSF stance on the matter. Do you feel personally that 9 out of 12 populations should have a hunting closure?

Just curious on it as there seems to be a lot of reading between the lines, but certainly havent heard any comment from the GO side of things in Reg 4 either, so wasnt sure if there was an official stance, or if GO side of things was just supporting shutting down those populations to hunting?

Some interesting conversation regardless.

[bearvalley]

Whats the answer in your opinion? You've posted regarding WSSBC and WSF stance on it and your curiosity regarding WSF stance on the matter. Do you feel personally that 9 out of 12 populations should have a hunting closure?

Just curious on it as there seems to be a lot of reading between the lines, but certainly havent heard any comment from the GO side of things in Reg 4 either, so wasnt sure if there was an official stance, or if GO side of things was just supporting shutting down those populations to hunting?

Some interesting conversation regardless.

Rackmastr, I’m not saying a closure is the way to go, but I don’t think a GOS will be long term either.
You’ve been in the game long enough….what’s the solution?

Its sad that a social media shit show has been created on Region 4 Bighorns now that WSSBC has gained lobby status.
Hopefully this isn’t how sheep issues go from here on out.

As for WSF, they seem to have been out of the loop that this campaign was going get fired up and our provincial sheep & goat experts advice was disregarded as well.
That was confirmed on a call a couple days ago with both WSF staff and our provincial sheep & goat specialist who’s also on the WSF Advisory Board.

Id say you guys left a lot out of the equation.

[Rackmastr]

Rackmastr, I’m not saying a closure is the way to go, but I don’t think a GOS will be long term either.
You’ve been in the game long enough….what’s the solution?

Its sad that a social media shit show has been created on Region 4 Bighorns now that WSSBC has gained lobby status.
Hopefully this isn’t how sheep issues go from here on out.

As for WSF, they seem to have been out of the loop that this campaign was going get fired up and our provincial sheep & goat experts advice was disregarded as well.
That was confirmed on a call a couple days ago with both WSF staff and our provincial sheep & goat specialist who’s also on the WSF Advisory Board.

Id say you guys left a lot out of the equation.

First off to be clear, Im not really 'you guys' as I'm not on the WSSBC board, nor ever have been. I run one of their fundraisers, but dont speak for them in any way, and am only conversing as Rackmastr/Trevor on this one, trying to get an idea of everyone's viewpoints/opinions/comments. I also understand the interesting position WSSBC can be put in on some of these topics involving conservation/hunting/etc.

Just was curious to get your comments on it as I was seeing your hinting at WSSBC/WSF and involvement.

I dont know the answer. I've been involved in Alberta and BC now and have come to know that issues like this dont ever seem to have an 'easy' answer. Habitat, predators, hunting pressure, vehicle collisions, LEH vs non, full curl vs 4/5, wait periods, residents vs non resident allocation, biologists opinions, outside researchers, etc, etc, etc.

I honestly dont know that I have been in the game long enough to know the solution. I guess the main reason I wouldnt either is knowing what the exact problem is, and that seems to always be an issue with multiple levers. Obviously my 'opinion' on the solution would benefit me as a hunter, and wanting to keep the ability to hunt sheep, and I support a number of options to try and look for alternatives in the province vs going LEH zone to zone until the entire province seems to be that way.

EDIT to add: I dont envy the position of the WSSBC in supporting its membership who are predominantly sheep hunters, while also supporting biologists and conservation concerns. There is a balance there. Surely the membership as well as other stakeholders like GOABC, BCWF, etc would be disappointed with WSSBC if they simply put out a statement advocating for shutting down the 9 of 12 zones in the name of conservation concerns, so there is a line that each user group obviously walks in these discussions.

[bearvalley]

I honestly dont know that I have been in the game long enough to know the solution. I guess the main reason I wouldnt either is knowing what the exact problem is, and that seems to always be an issue with multiple levers. Obviously my 'opinion' on the solution would benefit me as a hunter, and wanting to keep the ability to hunt sheep, and I support a number of options to try and look for alternatives in the province vs going LEH zone to zone until the entire province seems to be that way.

EDIT to add: I dont envy the position of the WSSBC in supporting its membership who are predominantly sheep hunters, while also supporting biologists and conservation concerns. There is a balance there. Surely the membership as well as other stakeholders like GOABC, BCWF, etc would be disappointed with WSSBC if they simply put out a statement advocating for shutting down the 9 of 12 zones in the name of conservation concerns, so there is a line that each user group obviously walks in these discussions.

Trevor, most of us on this site don’t want to see hunts shut down.
Some hunts are no longer sustainable under current circumstances therefor conservation comes into play.

Where WSSBC fell off the rails on this matter was that they did not lay out all the cards and say they’d agreed to a management plan, had been consulted with on the at hand issue, and we’re given a chance to come up with a better alternate solution.
If they had presented the information to their members and non members before the social media rally call fair judgement could be made on this LEH issue.
In reality government extended an Olive branch with the LEH season while other levers are pulled or being considered.

[Bugle M In]

Okay, enough of this BS low stakes poker play!
Olive branch, my ass!
LEH olive branches is nothing more than a twig that unfortunately many RH have grasped on to not realizing it wont keep them
afloat!
LEH has its purposes, in areas where there is too much hunting pressure, but if limited, the targeted species can self sustain itself.
Unfortunately, LEH is used far too often to compensate For Victoria's neglect, where hunting pressure/Success is not the actual
reality of why that/those species are in decline.
Its a way For Victoria to shirk itself responsibility away from itself!!!

So, lets stop play this game, enough of the bluffing, time to call and lay down the cards!

I say CLOSE 9 of those 12 Areas Completely!!!:shock: (I hope RH, BCWF, WSS and SCI HfBC folks are reading this!)
The (ask me) Why is simple.
IF it goes LEH, I guarantee every RH out there, that it this hurts RH and only RH.
And, once instituted, it will never go back to GOS! (because it isnt a hunting related issue, imo)
The GO's in those areas will hardly miss a beat or a penny from the change.

This ultimately means, that RH are in 1 boat, and GO in the other boat (sounds familiar doesnt it!!)
And because of that, Victoria has to do sweet F'all!
But, you CLOSE THE SEASON, and voila, now RH and GO and all their affiliated Organizations are POUNDING ON VICTORIAS DOOR!!!!
Victoria and all the clowns will have no choice but to finally get off their asses and do something, and do it quick.
They will have to figure out exactly what the issues are, and address it accordingly!!

And when they do, the will correct what is really needed to resolve the issue.
When that happens, the sheep come back, and we all get to go back to GOS!
IF you accept the bs Olive Branch some here are talking about, it will "drowned you" in the end.

I have been around this crap for decades now.
And i took the time the last few days to reflect at all the changes over the years.
And I see over and over again the implemnetation of LEH as the end all be all.
To help wildlife supposidly "come back"

Bullshit!!!
LEH is not there to do that when it is other factors driving the issue other then when it truly is too many hunters achieving
success where wildlife can recruit and sustain fast enough due to hunting.
When the factors are outside that Rationale and Science, LEH is a recipe for disaster, especially for RH.
Works well enough however for the GO community!
And the Wildlife never come back, and they are the ones that suffer the most.
Accept LEH, if you are RH vs closure, and you are accepting long term pain and little gain.
Accept a full on closure, and it will be really painful at first, but we might actually have benefits that far exceed what we
have yet to ever see!

Yes, this means we are relying on Victoria to finally get off their ass.
Put us all in the same boat, and maybe for once Victoria has no choice once in for all.
It might be the exact revolution we need to change the way Victoria engages us.
Because, up till now, they have deaf ears!

And if you want to see the real truth.
Ask Bearvalley if he supports even 1 area like the Assiniboine (the worst of the bunch) to become a full on closure!!
So far, crickets!

[bearvalley]

Okay, enough of this BS low stakes poker play!
Olive branch, my ass!
LEH olive branches is nothing more than a twig that unfortunately many RH have grasped on to not realizing it wont keep them
afloat!
LEH has its purposes, in areas where there is too much hunting pressure, but if limited, the targeted species can self sustain itself.
Unfortunately, LEH is used far too often to compensate For Victoria's neglect, where hunting pressure/Success is not the actual
reality of why that/those species are in decline.
Its a way For Victoria to shirk itself responsibility away from itself!!!

So, lets stop play this game, enough of the bluffing, time to call and lay down the cards!

I say CLOSE 9 of those 12 Areas Completely!!!:shock: (I hope RH, BCWF, WSS and SCI HfBC folks are reading this!)
The (ask me) Why is simple.
IF it goes LEH, I guarantee every RH out there, that it this hurts RH and only RH.
And, once instituted, it will never go back to GOS! (because it isnt a hunting related issue, imo)
The GO's in those areas will hardly miss a beat or a penny from the change.

This ultimately means, that RH are in 1 boat, and GO in the other boat (sounds familiar doesnt it!!)
And because of that, Victoria has to do sweet F'all!
But, you CLOSE THE SEASON, and voila, now RH and GO and all their affiliated Organizations are POUNDING ON VICTORIAS DOOR!!!!
Victoria and all the clowns will have no choice but to finally get off their asses and do something, and do it quick.
They will have to figure out exactly what the issues are, and address it accordingly!!

And when they do, the will correct what is really needed to resolve the issue.
When that happens, the sheep come back, and we all get to go back to GOS!
IF you accept the bs Olive Branch some here are talking about, it will "drowned you" in the end.

I have been around this crap for decades now.
And i took the time the last few days to reflect at all the changes over the years.
And I see over and over again the implemnetation of LEH as the end all be all.
To help wildlife supposidly "come back"

Bullshit!!!
LEH is not there to do that when it is other factors driving the issue other then when it truly is too many hunters achieving
success where wildlife can recruit and sustain fast enough due to hunting.
When the factors are outside that Rationale and Science, LEH is a recipe for disaster, especially for RH.
Works well enough however for the GO community!
And the Wildlife never come back, and they are the ones that suffer the most.
Accept LEH, if you are RH vs closure, and you are accepting long term pain and little gain.
Accept a full on closure, and it will be really painful at first, but we might actually have benefits that far exceed what we
have yet to ever see!

Yes, this means we are relying on Victoria to finally get off their ass.
Put us all in the same boat, and maybe for once Victoria has no choice once in for all.
It might be the exact revolution we need to change the way Victoria engages us.
Because, up till now, they have deaf ears!

And if you want to see the real truth.
Ask Bearvalley if he supports even 1 area like the Assiniboine (the worst of the bunch) to become a full on closure!!
So far, crickets!

Andrew, it took a while to read thru your babble.

I’m going to ask you a couple questions:

Have you read the history on this?

I asked you before how many levers can you pull in a Park?

Now I’m gonna ask you what have you invested financially or time wise to help correct wildlife issues in this province?

Throwing out senseless horseshit on HBC doesn’t count for much.

Crickets……..

[IronNoggin]

Throwing out senseless horseshit on HBC doesn’t count for much.

Crickets……..

He has a point which you are attempting to disparage.

BTW: Piperdown said to say Hi, and ask you how the ranching was going...

Just passing that along... ;)

Nog

[bearvalley]

He has a point which you are attempting to disparage.

BTW: Piperdown said to say Hi, and ask you how the ranching was going...

Just passing that along... ;)

Nog

Do you think all of Region 4 should be completely shut down Matt?
That what Andrew thinks.

Read thru the paperwork on this and you tell me the solution.

Tell Piperdown hello and he can pass that on to his buddy as well.

[Walking Buffalo]

In management decisions such as this, it is worthwhile to take a broader look around.
Has the debate become to focused?
Hand is so close to your eyes that you can't see?


Let's not forget that the concept of "8 year old full/curl rams are needed for conservation" is not proven to be necessary for either genetic or population maintenance.
History and even newly transplanted herds shows us that it is not.


There is no need to go to LEH while other "levers" are pulled.

[LBM]

Still find it crazy so many people and groups not concerned about wildlife and conservation only concerned about there rights to kill it
and if there not allowed to will do nothing to help it. They want to follow science which says 9 of these areas should be shut down
so wont that displace these 300 extra hunters they keep talking about.
Bottom line there is no money to do anything so those that like to write letters thats what it should be about, all money from
outdoor recreation should be going back into it.
Sadly it will come down to letters from those that have little or have no clue about what is going on and make it a political
decision just like the way of the grizzly hunt.
LEH is better then nothing.

[Rob Chipman]

Still find it crazy so many people and groups not concerned about wildlife and conservation only concerned about there rights to kill it
...

There is some truth to that observation, and anyone who wants to move the needle on restoring fish, wildlife and habitat in this province should keep in mind that long before access or allocation comes restoration. If the pie was big we wouldn't be arguing about what size the slices should be. Our problem isn't the size of the slices. It's the cook in charge of baking the ****ing pie.



They want to follow science which says 9 of these areas should be shut down



I don't think you can make the argument that we're following science. We're paying lip service to it, which I think you recognize. That has to stop. We need to actually follow science. Science has certainly been hijacked, weaponized and very damaged over the last two decades, but its the best alternative.



Bottom line there is no money to do anything so those that like to write letters thats what it should be about, all money from
outdoor recreation should be going back into it.



Untrue. There is plenty of money. It's just not being spent on fish, wildlife or habitat. Additionally, even if we diverted all the money raised from the permits/licenses for outdoor activities, it wouldn't be enough to do what needs to be done. Anyone who wants to move the needle on FW&H in BC should start making that demand.



Sadly it will come down to letters from those that have little or have no clue about what is going on and make it a political
decision just like the way of the grizzly hunt.


Politicization of wildlife is one of the biggest threats we face. The danger of this threat is not widely recognized. Prior to the grizzly ban I spoke with an NDP operative and made it 100% clear that the science proved that the g-bear hunt is sustainable. His answer was a checkmate: "Yes, the science says you *can* hunt g-bears, but the science doesn't say you *have to* hunt g-bears, therefore we can shitcan science and get the votes we need".

Politicization at that time looked like harvesting anti-hunter votes in urban areas. Going forward it will look increasingly like chucking a minority of BC residents under the bus to satisfy greater political challenges.







LEH is better then nothing.


No it's not. It's managing to zero, and managing to zero doesn't work unless your goal is to pave paradise and put up a parking lot. LEH gets us to the parking lot a bit slower, but it leads to the same place.

I think it's pretty important to recognize that governments (who are in the business of re-distributing value among competing and often opposed interests) use the tactic of divide and conquer daily. One application of divide and conquer is to take a group of people with broadly similar goals and interests encourage them to dispute small issues with each other. How many disputes over LEH in how many regions will it take before people who want to move the needle on FW&H recognize that they're arguing with each other over the wrong subject?

If LEH is effective, can we put people using the highway between Radium Hotsprings and Golden on it?

[backcountry99]

I'm coming in late to this battle so I apologize If I state something mentioned many pages before but BearValley it is beyond clear to me that you either are an outfitter or stand to gain from the outfitting industry.
The ministry did not extend an olive branch with this LEH proposal as a temporary measure until they can fix the sheep numbers problem in region 4! I was hunting bighorns in region 4 this past fall just like every fall and bumped into the new outfitter in the area I was hunting. He out right told me he had purchased this area knowing that region 4 was going to go to leh for sheep and bought his area as an investment because of how that would inflate the price of these sheep tags! LEH is being proposed 100% and completely to make these region 4 outfitters viable that's it and that's all.
If 9 of the 12 area's have truly dropped below 75 sheep then absolutely shut them down! Shut them down and get to the route of the problem once the numbers bounce back above 75 sheep then re-open GOS.
LEH does absolutely nothing to help the problem! If these sheep numbers are below 75 sheep then there will be very few if any legal rams in some area's so explain to me how allowing outfitters to continue to harvest rams and leh tags handed out to harvest rams helps anything. We are already on a full curl restriction that allows a very small percentage of the sheep herd to potentially be harvested.

Sheep numbers in region 4 are just the latest in region 4 ungulate numbers. Region 4 ungulate numbers are absolutely in the tank and the big picture needs to be looked at not a bunch of self serving hunting regulations to allow small groups to benefit from the last few remaining animals with less competition!

Predator management and Habitat enhancement!!!!!! It needs to start happening fast all over BC

[IronNoggin]

I'm coming in late to this battle...


Might be a little late to the party, but you nailed it! https://www.tnof.ca/styles/default/xenforo/smilies/Pozitive.gif

Cheers & Thanks,
Nog

[LBM]

[QUOTE=Rob Chipman;2318247]There is some truth to that observation, and anyone who wants to move the needle on restoring fish, wildlife and habitat in this province should keep in mind that long before access or allocation comes restoration. If the pie was big we wouldn't be arguing about what size the slices should be. Our problem isn't the size of the slices. It's the cook in charge of baking the ****ing pie.





I don't think you can make the argument that we're following science. We're paying lip service to it, which I think you recognize. That has to stop. We need to actually follow science. Science has certainly been hijacked, weaponized and very damaged over the last two decades, but its the best alternative.
And if the science doesnt work for there agenda they find some that does so i agree with what you say how its been high jacked weaponized and very damaged, so in saying that may not be the best alternative.


Untrue. There is plenty of money. It's just not being spent on fish, wildlife or habitat. Additionally, even if we diverted all the money raised from the permits/licenses for outdoor activities, it wouldn't be enough to do what needs to be done. Anyone who wants to move the needle on FW&H in BC should start making that demand
I think were kind of saying the same thing on how it doesnt go back to fish wildlife or habitat.

Politicization of wildlife is one of the biggest threats we face. The danger of this threat is not widely recognized. Prior to the grizzly ban I spoke with an NDP operative and made it 100% clear that the science proved that the g-bear hunt is sustainable. His answer was a checkmate: "Yes, the science says you *can* hunt g-bears, but the science doesn't say you *have to* hunt g-bears, therefore we can shitcan science and get the votes we need".

Politicization at that time looked like harvesting anti-hunter votes in urban areas. Going forward it will look increasingly like chucking a minority of BC residents under the bus to satisfy greater political challenges.








No it's not. It's managing to zero, and managing to zero doesn't work unless your goal is to pave paradise and put up a parking lot. LEH gets us to the parking lot a bit slower, but it leads to the same place.

I think it's pretty important to recognize that governments (who are in the business of re-distributing value among competing and often opposed interests) use the tactic of divide and conquer daily. One application of divide and conquer is to take a group of people with broadly similar goals and interests encourage them to dispute small issues with each other. How many disputes over LEH in how many regions will it take before people who want to move the needle on FW&H recognize that they're arguing with each other over the wrong subject?
Its an opinion I dont have a problem with LEH

If LEH is effective, can we put people using the highway between Radium Hotsprings and Golden on it?

I have no problem with dropping a rock to block the canyon off below the pools, also have no problem with a drastic

speed reduction on the mill hill. The deer and elk took a big hit from Radium to Golden this year as well along with a
few humans.

[LBM]

I'm coming in late to this battle so I apologize If I state something mentioned many pages before but BearValley it is beyond clear to me that you either are an outfitter or stand to gain from the outfitting industry.
The ministry did not extend an olive branch with this LEH proposal as a temporary measure until they can fix the sheep numbers problem in region 4! I was hunting bighorns in region 4 this past fall just like every fall and bumped into the new outfitter in the area I was hunting. He out right told me he had purchased this area knowing that region 4 was going to go to leh for sheep and bought his area as an investment because of how that would inflate the price of these sheep tags! LEH is being proposed 100% and completely to make these region 4 outfitters viable that's it and that's all.
If 9 of the 12 area's have truly dropped below 75 sheep then absolutely shut them down! Shut them down and get to the route of the problem once the numbers bounce back above 75 sheep then re-open GOS.
LEH does absolutely nothing to help the problem! If these sheep numbers are below 75 sheep then there will be very few if any legal rams in some area's so explain to me how allowing outfitters to continue to harvest rams and leh tags handed out to harvest rams helps anything. We are already on a full curl restriction that allows a very small percentage of the sheep herd to potentially be harvested.

Sheep numbers in region 4 are just the latest in region 4 ungulate numbers. Region 4 ungulate numbers are absolutely in the tank and the big picture needs to be looked at not a bunch of self serving hunting regulations to allow small groups to benefit from the last few remaining animals with less competition!

Predator management and Habitat enhancement!!!!!! It needs to start happening fast all over BC

Would be interested to no which outfitter your talking about.
LEH gives an opportunity to keep hunting, im not sure who is saying its going to fix numbers.
Sheep numbers are not just the latest they have been dropping for years
Its not just ungulates its all wildlife.
Since this is a sheep issue predator management wasnt an issue in many of the MUs
or at least cougars werent .

[backcountry99]

Would be interested to no which outfitter your talking about.
LEH gives an opportunity to keep hunting, im not sure who is saying its going to fix numbers.
Sheep numbers are not just the latest they have been dropping for years
Its not just ungulates its all wildlife.
Since this is a sheep issue predator management wasnt an issue in many of the MUs
or at least cougars werent .


Think you better do some east kootenay bighorn survey reading/put some boots on the ground and get your head in the game!

Sheep numbers have not been dropping for years in region 4 they've been holding pretty solid since the 80's. The latest drop in numbers is quite new. All the area's have gone through up and down cycles for many years.

LEH is not to keep you hunting its to limit resident hunters and prevent you from hunting.

Look at the big picture here you put the east koots on leh and you've now taken the highest density of hard core sheep hunters in the whole province and said hang the guns up boys until you draw a sheep tag.....keep dreaming! Me and every other sheep hunter are heading north to hunt stones. The crying has already started by a couple northern outfitters for leh on stones. A couple years of increased pressure and stones will be on leh to. They just proposed it for caribou and moose in the north to. This is the first step to privatizing hunting in BC.

Don't be stupid and do not get on board with this BS!

Get on board with fixing the problem! Habitat enhancement and predator management!

[Bullreaper]

I understand everyone has an opinion but us hunters we are a huge minority as it is, and bickering back and forth between each other on an online forum isn’t gonna change a thing! At the end of the day, I’m sure we can all agree that wildlife numbers in the entire province are on a steep decline. That is the big issue in general and as hunters all need to be on the same page, instead of pissin back and forth at each other, we should all be united and pissing on the people in Victoria. In my opinion, severe underfunding, habitat destruction, poor forestry management, predators and probably the biggest problem is mismanagement in Victoria, all these are issues that need to be addressed and quickly if we are going to see any change.

I recently wrote the MLA in the East Kootenays to touch on subjects such as the collapse of the elk population in the elk valley (anyone who spends any time here knows that in the last 5-7 years, the population is nothing short of a complete collapse) as well as forestry practices in the valley. I am not against logging whatsoever, but the way this valley has been logged the last few years is unsustainable. Mountains that were prime elk habitat are completely clear cut, 100’s of loads of logs left behind to rot, and no replanting to be seen and was essentially told that logging companies govern themselves on waste and proper logging practices, that if I had a problem and didn’t think something was right, I should call the RAPP line. I asked where all the money for stumpage was going and if any of it went back into wildlife or conservation. The answer I got was this exact quote..

”Funds raised by stumpage contribute to the provinces general revenues and are used to fund vital social services such as education and health care and is sometimes shared with First Nations communities”

As far as there reasoning and what they are doing about the elk population collapse this is what I was told…

“Your observation that elk numbers have declined is also supported by our information from our winter surveys and spring carry over counts. Elk numbers dropped significantly following two back-to-back high severity winters in 2016/17 and 2017/18. Since then there has been some recovery in numbers, based on our spring carry over counts. The ministry is concerned about the declines observed in elk and other ungulates and is working on several initiatives to address these issues including:

Updated Elk Management plan for the region to establish habitat and population target and strategies to meet them.
Establishing Ungulate Winter Range orders under Forest legislation to manage habitat for Bighorn Sheep, Mountain Goat
Updating Ungulate Winter Range orders for Elk, Moose and Deer, using new information to improve habitat outcomes
Working with Ministry of Transportation and Infrastructure and others to improve wildlife safe passage across Highway 3
Developing projects under the provincial “Together for Wildlife” initiative and Habitat Conservation Trust Foundation (HCTF), and our Regional Ecosystem Restoration program to invest in wildlife habitat restoration programs.


The landscape has many demands on it from industry and the public, and I can assure you that our staff in region are committed and engaged in their work to maintain the regions’ exceptional wildlife values.

Thank you again for writing and sharing your concerns. I continue to work with our Kootenay Boundary Team to assess community based interests and concerns like yours and work towards enhancing our land stewardship practices.

Sincerely,

Garth Wiggill
Regional Executive Director
Kootenay Boundary Region”



So in other words, our government doesn’t give a shit. As long as they get there salary and pension increases every year, all they are going to do is put band aids on gun shot wounds with shit like turning a GOS into LEH. It is the cheapest, easiest, most convenient way for them to at least pretend they care. Us as hunters and outdoorsman, instead of bickering between each other, we need to get on the same page and find a way to address these shitheads in Victoria that are making the calls and get them to start making proper decisions.

[LBM]

Think you better do some east kootenay bighorn survey reading/put some boots on the ground and get your head in the game!

Sheep numbers have not been dropping for years in region 4 they've been holding pretty solid since the 80's. The latest drop in numbers is quite new. All the area's have gone through up and down cycles for many years.

LEH is not to keep you hunting its to limit resident hunters and prevent you from hunting.

Look at the big picture here you put the east koots on leh and you've now taken the highest density of hard core sheep hunters in the whole province and said hang the guns up boys until you draw a sheep tag.....keep dreaming! Me and every other sheep hunter are heading north to hunt stones. The crying has already started by a couple northern outfitters for leh on stones. A couple years of increased pressure and stones will be on leh to. They just proposed it for caribou and moose in the north to. This is the first step to privatizing hunting in BC.

Don't be stupid and do not get on board with this BS!

Get on board with fixing the problem! Habitat enhancement and predator management!

Well in there 365 days of the year. So would disagree, funny they would relocate sheep from the radium head
to lussier area if numbers were fine there etc.
Well according to whats stated its shut the zones down or LEH so i take LEH.
According to your own words hunters and hunting pressure can be hard on wildlife
so thats not a good thing, maybe all this pressure is part of the problem on the EK sheep.

[LBM]

I understand everyone has an opinion but us hunters we are a huge minority as it is, and bickering back and forth between each other on an online forum isn’t gonna change a thing! At the end of the day, I’m sure we can all agree that wildlife numbers in the entire province are on a steep decline. That is the big issue in general and as hunters all need to be on the same page, instead of pissin back and forth at each other, we should all be united and pissing on the people in Victoria. In my opinion, severe underfunding, habitat destruction, poor forestry management, predators and probably the biggest problem is mismanagement in Victoria, all these are issues that need to be addressed and quickly if we are going to see any change.

I recently wrote the MLA in the East Kootenays to touch on subjects such as the collapse of the elk population in the elk valley (anyone who spends any time here knows that in the last 5-7 years, the population is nothing short of a complete collapse) as well as forestry practices in the valley. I am not against logging whatsoever, but the way this valley has been logged the last few years is unsustainable. Mountains that were prime elk habitat are completely clear cut, 100’s of loads of logs left behind to rot, and no replanting to be seen and was essentially told that logging companies govern themselves on waste and proper logging practices, that if I had a problem and didn’t think something was right, I should call the RAPP line. I asked where all the money for stumpage was going and if any of it went back into wildlife or conservation. The answer I got was this exact quote..

”Funds raised by stumpage contribute to the provinces general revenues and are used to fund vital social services such as education and health care and is sometimes shared with First Nations communities”

As far as there reasoning and what they are doing about the elk population collapse this is what I was told…

“Your observation that elk numbers have declined is also supported by our information from our winter surveys and spring carry over counts. Elk numbers dropped significantly following two back-to-back high severity winters in 2016/17 and 2017/18. Since then there has been some recovery in numbers, based on our spring carry over counts. The ministry is concerned about the declines observed in elk and other ungulates and is working on several initiatives to address these issues including:

Updated Elk Management plan for the region to establish habitat and population target and strategies to meet them.
Establishing Ungulate Winter Range orders under Forest legislation to manage habitat for Bighorn Sheep, Mountain Goat
Updating Ungulate Winter Range orders for Elk, Moose and Deer, using new information to improve habitat outcomes
Working with Ministry of Transportation and Infrastructure and others to improve wildlife safe passage across Highway 3
Developing projects under the provincial “Together for Wildlife” initiative and Habitat Conservation Trust Foundation (HCTF), and our Regional Ecosystem Restoration program to invest in wildlife habitat restoration programs.


The landscape has many demands on it from industry and the public, and I can assure you that our staff in region are committed and engaged in their work to maintain the regions’ exceptional wildlife values.

Thank you again for writing and sharing your concerns. I continue to work with our Kootenay Boundary Team to assess community based interests and concerns like yours and work towards enhancing our land stewardship practices.

Sincerely,

Garth Wiggill
Regional Executive Director
Kootenay Boundary Region”



So in other words, our government doesn’t give a shit. As long as they get there salary and pension increases every year, all they are going to do is put band aids on gun shot wounds with shit like turning a GOS into LEH. It is the cheapest, easiest, most convenient way for them to at least pretend they care. Us as hunters and outdoorsman, instead of bickering between each other, we need to get on the same page and find a way to address these shitheads in Victoria that are making the calls and get them to start making proper decisions.

Agree with lots you are saying but everyone wants something different, so many user groups out there now. If you find a way to get the true and truthful info to those that make the calls im all ears.

[Bullreaper]

Agree with lots you are saying but everyone wants something different, so many user groups out there now. If you find a way to get the true and truthful info to those that make the calls im all ears.


That’s exactly it, in BC we have numerous different fish and wildlife associations such as BCWF, SCI, KEHA, WSS and all our local rod and gun clubs, But how do we get all of them on the same page and to take these issues to Victoria on a united front? Then at the same time, you have such a huge number of people that think wolves, grizzlies, cougars are cute, cuddly and could never harm other animals. I honestly think that voice is a lot louder than us hunters. Wish we were more like western states, where they have a powerful wildlife advocate like the RMEF as well as the 2nd amendment with people willing to hold elected officials responsible.

[backcountry99]

Well in there 365 days of the year. So would disagree, funny they would relocate sheep from the radium head
to lussier area if numbers were fine there etc.
Well according to whats stated its shut the zones down or LEH so i take LEH.
According to your own words hunters and hunting pressure can be hard on wildlife
so thats not a good thing, maybe all this pressure is part of the problem on the EK sheep.

lbm your a hard guy to understand!
we don’t hunt ewes and have a full curl regulation on rams as you know from being out there 365 days a year. If overall sheep numbers are on the decline it is not from hunting. Look at the stats overall east kootenay sheep numbers have been relatively stable for 40 years. Individual areas go through cycles. Probably due to were these sheep winter and how hard the winters were from year to year. The lussier has been up and down. As has the elk valley, the flathead, the kootenay and so on. The average age of rams being harvested has also been steady.

[Bugle M In]

Well, for some reason I got locked out of this thread for a couple of days with some sort of technical glitch between my pc and this
site.

Anyways, I am glad some folks are getting it.
Makes me hopeful for once.
This whole LEH thing is being used inappropriately by the Ministry to shirk off responsibility.
LEH has its purposes.
But its not the end al be all in WILDLIFE MANAGEMENT.
On top of that, using it creates divide as some user groups carry on without missing a step, while others really pay a price.
The ultimate price however has been out Wildlife!!
And really folks, its getting really late in the game if we dont do something differently.
Don't let some folks deceive.
There is plenty of $$$$$$ playing a role to make you believe "THIS IS GOOD FOR YOU/OLIVE BRANCH BS!!"

Fix it properly, and it will be what we have been desiring for Decades now.
And everyone will be happy.
Some, might even be more happy then they actually think they are now!!

I know GO's that aren't getting repeat costumers back!
They show up for an elk hunt, and then go WTF, "sure, beautiful country, but its dead!"
I know many GO's are probably struggling bad right now is some parts of BC.
And I am sure that a full on closure might destroy them, especially when talking RM sheep hunts.
But, let me tell you, if the right steps are taken ...right now.
They could lose their last money maker which is Goats.

Something is going on, something has got to drastically change.
Victoria is actually going to have to get up and do their job and buck the F**K UP!
Rather than being a bunch F UPs, which takes no effort to do, fyi!

[J_T]

That’s exactly it, in BC we have numerous different fish and wildlife associations such as BCWF, SCI, KEHA, WSS and all our local rod and gun clubs, But how do we get all of them on the same page and to take these issues to Victoria on a united front? Then at the same time, you have such a huge number of people that think wolves, grizzlies, cougars are cute, cuddly and could never harm other animals. I honestly think that voice is a lot louder than us hunters. Wish we were more like western states, where they have a powerful wildlife advocate like the RMEF as well as the 2nd amendment with people willing to hold elected officials responsible.

Not targeting you personally here. But when I read these types of comments, I realize so many hunters, or participants on here, really actually don't know what is going on behind the scenes. I can assure you that those organizations that have a seat at a regional table, or at the Provincial table, or on a Coalition, - Indigenous, GOABC, WSS, BCWF, BCBHA, UBBC, Wildlife Stewardship Council, Trappers, Houndsmen (Did I leave anyone out?) are communicating, they are sitting on a host of committees, they are working together and they show each other the respect that is required to find common ground and work with Government to find solutions. They each bring a unique perspective to the discussion. It is not adversarial. No one is acting as a single special interest group. The best interests of wildlife and the continuation of the hunt are first and foremost.

Those that are involved, are giving a lot (a ton) of their time.

Governance, Leadership and decision making is not easy. Often a decision will appear to cater to no one, but it is a decision made, based on the situation, state and science that is available at the time. And, as this thread is about sheep, I might as well weigh in. I'm no longer a sheep hunter. The Radium sheep demise, is more about the transportation corridor, than habitat or hunting. So let's get our poop together and do something about that. High fencing and an underpass will allow those sheep to winter as they do, without being on those roads in the high impact area. As for sheep seasons, I have spoken to the sheep biologist numerous times. He's a good guy. He says the recommendations they are coming out with are not decisions that they come by easy.

If you close a season, you may never get it back. If you shift a GOS to LEH, you can probably monitor the population trends and if we collectively do the right things by sheep, habitat, reduced vehicle mortality, and we see an upswing in the population the first step would be more LEH permits, and hopefully back to GOS. To be clear, the sheep demise is not about hunting, but hunters can be the solution. We do need to understand the issues and ultimately we do need to hold Government decision makers accountable.

The internet and online forums are great places to be someone we are not. Positional and opinionated. An online forum has very little in common with the respect and collaboration that is shown in wildlife meetings.

[j270wsm]

Still find it crazy so many people and groups not concerned about wildlife and conservation only concerned about there rights to kill it
and if there not allowed to will do nothing to help it. They want to follow science which says 9 of these areas should be shut down
so wont that displace these 300 extra hunters they keep talking about.
Bottom line there is no money to do anything so those that like to write letters thats what it should be about, all money from
outdoor recreation should be going back into it.
Sadly it will come down to letters from those that have little or have no clue about what is going on and make it a political
decision just like the way of the grizzly hunt.
LEH is better then nothing.

how many times did Bob Fontana get hired for the $200,000 sheep tag?? I know of 3 or 4 190+ rams that he guided during the end of Oct-beginning of nov. How much of the money from those tags went back into habitat in the locations where the sheep were killed??

[Imdone]

Not targeting you personally here. But when I read these types of comments, I realize so many hunters, or participants on here, really actually don't know what is going on behind the scenes. I can assure you that those organizations that have a seat at a regional table, or at the Provincial table, or on a Coalition, - Indigenous, GOABC, WSS, BCWF, BCBHA, UBBC, Wildlife Stewardship Council, Trappers, Houndsmen (Did I leave anyone out?) are communicating, they are sitting on a host of committees, they are working together and they show each other the respect that is required to find common ground and work with Government to find solutions. They each bring a unique perspective to the discussion. It is not adversarial. No one is acting as a single special interest group. The best interests of wildlife and the continuation of the hunt are first and foremost.

Those that are involved, are giving a lot (a ton) of their time.

Governance, Leadership and decision making is not easy. Often a decision will appear to cater to no one, but it is a decision made, based on the situation, state and science that is available at the time. And, as this thread is about sheep, I might as well weigh in. I'm no longer a sheep hunter. The Radium sheep demise, is more about the transportation corridor, than habitat or hunting. So let's get our poop together and do something about that. High fencing and an underpass will allow those sheep to winter as they do, without being on those roads in the high impact area. As for sheep seasons, I have spoken to the sheep biologist numerous times. He's a good guy. He says the recommendations they are coming out with are not decisions that they come by easy.

If you close a season, you may never get it back. If you shift a GOS to LEH, you can probably monitor the population trends and if we collectively do the right things by sheep, habitat, reduced vehicle mortality, and we see an upswing in the population the first step would be more LEH permits, and hopefully back to GOS. To be clear, the sheep demise is not about hunting, but hunters can be the solution. We do need to understand the issues and ultimately we do need to hold Government decision makers accountable.

The internet and online forums are great places to be someone we are not. Positional and opinionated. An online forum has very little in common with the respect and collaboration that is shown in wildlife meetings.

Great Post.
Thanks JT for all your and everyone's hardwork and dedication to Wild Sheep.

Personally, lack of Government funds going back to wildlife is SICKENING.

[Bullreaper]

Not targeting you personally here. But when I read these types of comments, I realize so many hunters, or participants on here, really actually don't know what is going on behind the scenes. I can assure you that those organizations that have a seat at a regional table, or at the Provincial table, or on a Coalition, - Indigenous, GOABC, WSS, BCWF, BCBHA, UBBC, Wildlife Stewardship Council, Trappers, Houndsmen (Did I leave anyone out?) are communicating, they are sitting on a host of committees, they are working together and they show each other the respect that is required to find common ground and work with Government to find solutions. They each bring a unique perspective to the discussion. It is not adversarial. No one is acting as a single special interest group. The best interests of wildlife and the continuation of the hunt are first and foremost.

Those that are involved, are giving a lot (a ton) of their time.

Governance, Leadership and decision making is not easy. Often a decision will appear to cater to no one, but it is a decision made, based on the situation, state and science that is available at the time. And, as this thread is about sheep, I might as well weigh in. I'm no longer a sheep hunter. The Radium sheep demise, is more about the transportation corridor, than habitat or hunting. So let's get our poop together and do something about that. High fencing and an underpass will allow those sheep to winter as they do, without being on those roads in the high impact area. As for sheep seasons, I have spoken to the sheep biologist numerous times. He's a good guy. He says the recommendations they are coming out with are not decisions that they come by easy.

If you close a season, you may never get it back. If you shift a GOS to LEH, you can probably monitor the population trends and if we collectively do the right things by sheep, habitat, reduced vehicle mortality, and we see an upswing in the population the first step would be more LEH permits, and hopefully back to GOS. To be clear, the sheep demise is not about hunting, but hunters can be the solution. We do need to understand the issues and ultimately we do need to hold Government decision makers accountable.

The internet and online forums are great places to be someone we are not. Positional and opinionated. An online forum has very little in common with the respect and collaboration that is shown in wildlife meetings.

I don’t take anything personally, all good. I understand all the good work each of these organizations does within our province advocating for wildlife and conservation. Definitely not trying to take anything away from the things they do. My point is that all the problems we are having in the province with population decline, predators, habitat destruction, road kill, etc etc. They are all problems that need addressing, but how are we going to address all these “smaller” issues if we can’t first address the biggest problems of underfunding and the government actually taking these issues seriously? Something like a joint statement from these organizations, sent to Victoria demanding we start getting serious about these issues. Power in numbers. Anything to raise enough stink to get takin seriously. Cause if we don’t, there won’t be anything left.

The government has already shown they don’t really care to much about what the science says with the grizzly decision. Was a complete social decision. Site C, the majority of the people didn’t want that. Can you imagine if they put $12+ billion dollars into preserving wildlife? Instead of blowing it on a dam nobody wants that is going to destroy one of of nicest most lush valleys in northern BC, displacing and killing even more wildlife. Or how about we just start with the money from licenses and tags going 100% back into conservation?

I personally try do my part, I have hounds and have killed numerous cougars that are living on sheep wintering grounds and I try spend most of my time looking for cats in those areas. I get out as much as I can to wack coyotes and wolves, a lot easier said than done, but we need more hunters out there trying to do there part too. If everyone who hunted ungulates went out even once or twice a year to do some predator management, we could probably put a good dent in those.

As far as this thread being about sheep, I think over/underpasses are a great idea, they have proved successful on numerous different highways, although the one they installed near Jaffray, I think is a joke, it’s so small I don’t see any animals walking through there. Would love to see evidence of it actually working though! As far as high fencing, it has its place. Look at what the high fence did from Christina lake to Grand forks, sure it keeps animals off the highway, but it also blocks access for them to get to the river. That entire Gilpin grasslands hillside used to be full of wildlife, then the fence went up, wasn’t long after that, animals disappeared from there. Also, a couple years ago, I watched a couple coyotes run a calf elk into a high fence, corner and kill it. So there’s that problem too. Does BC have or use a program like Wild Horse island in Montana, where they have a place with protected animals they can later transplant? I don’t think it’s the long term answer, but if we could give sheep numbers a boost to try help out?

By the way, don’t kid yourself with the “respect and collaboration that is shown in wildlife meetings” I have been to numerous meetings where it’s just loud mouth jackass’s screaming, yelling and getting absolutely nowhere. Although most are respectful, not all. Lots of individuals and outfitters with there own agendas that don’t want to look at the bigger picture for the greater good.

[J_T]

^^^ Good feedback. Thanks.

A bit off the track of the original post.... however.....

Regarding the demands on Gov requesting action. The same players that sit on the Provincial Hunting Advisory team (PHTAT) also sit on the FWH Coalition. Working "together" this group has met with almost every politician in BC. Held workshops with the Minister (Conroy) of FLNRO and continue to work on various committees such as Access Management. Recommendations flowing from any and all of these discussions is making its way to the Minister's Wildlife Advisory Council (MWAC) and this group are making hard recommendations to the Minister.

Having sounded like an optimist, I will tell you there is increasing frustration on a number of levels. We want to see some action on the ground. Political promises are fluff. Say whatever they think the audience wants to hear. I can tell you, I've held strong eye contact with politicians, I've thumped the table and told them they don't get it. And what we MUST have is money. Show us the money. And we'll show Government how to spend it.

We are actively demanding substantial increases in budget allocations for fish, wildlife and habitat.

We'll see. As the end of February approaches. How many times the words, environment, wildlife, habitat show up in the speech from the throne? In past years, not at all. Let's see this year. Quite frankly, if I don't see significant change with budget allocations this year, and substantially more money dedicated to on the ground wildlife/habitat work, I'm not sure how I will respond. So much volunteer effort. And for what? I demand, we demand, respect and action from Government.

[LBM]

That’s exactly it, in BC we have numerous different fish and wildlife associations such as BCWF, SCI, KEHA, WSS and all our local rod and gun clubs, But how do we get all of them on the same page and to take these issues to Victoria on a united front? Then at the same time, you have such a huge number of people that think wolves, grizzlies, cougars are cute, cuddly and could never harm other animals. I honestly think that voice is a lot louder than us hunters. Wish we were more like western states, where they have a powerful wildlife advocate like the RMEF as well as the 2nd amendment with people willing to hold elected officials responsible.

Actually humans are harming a lot of wildlife/animals and many people dont realize it.

[LBM]

lbm your a hard guy to understand!
we don’t hunt ewes and have a full curl regulation on rams as you know from being out there 365 days a year. If overall sheep numbers are on the decline it is not from hunting. Look at the stats overall east kootenay sheep numbers have been relatively stable for 40 years. Individual areas go through cycles. Probably due to were these sheep winter and how hard the winters were from year to year. The lussier has been up and down. As has the elk valley, the flathead, the kootenay and so on. The average age of rams being harvested has also been steady.

Ewes use to be hunted there use to be a 8 year old rule as well wonder why that was taken away, my guess to many short sheep coming in and people saying thought it was 8, ive seen enough of that happening.
So hunters can have a effect on things
along with the pressure of hunting as you mentioned.
So if the numbers are true and 9 of the 12 areas are at or below the 75 they should be shut down i would prefer a LEH, to be honest i would of liked to see it applied 30 years ago. Some of these areas may only have a few
full curl rams in them now if all of those 300 hunters decide to hit that one area well could be a bit to much pressure.

[Bugle M In]

JT,

You know I dont take the comments either as personally.
I know LEH does allow us to go back to GOS when a solution is found and thus the issue corrected.

The only issue I have with LEH, is that the issue from the Victoria end of things never get resolved.
In other words, whatever is needed to go from GOS to LEH and back to GOS never seems to happen.
If it did, I say go LEH for sure.
I just think, or rather experienced that once LEH, always LEH after that, all because of Victoria!

A different example is look at the R4 Elk situation.
They removed the huge allotted amount of Cow Elk LEH (which they did need to do and fully supported!) and for added measure,
instituted the 6pt restriction (did not need to do, imo), because they felt there were concerns about the direction elk #s were
trending.
25 years later, and we recorded the least amount of elk in the Trench that I can ever remember, maybe anyone alive can ever
remember??
My concern that if things don't go the other way, there is another hunt, that will end up LEH.

And I certainly don't blame the folks at the table.
I am surprised many of you haven't died from concussion from banging your heads on the table out of sheer frustration!!
I know there are plenty of talented/smart and competent people in there and trying their best.

I am totally pissed at what Victoria has done to us, and its not just this party in power right now, its all parties from the past as
well.
I wanted to see Wildlife in a better state by the time I die for my children and everyone else, better than what my fathers
generation has left us with etc.
But, I fear we are going to leave a Legacy of Wildlife on the brink of extinction.
Certainly to a point where none of the species can even be hunted any longer.
That last statement is basically where we are almost at now.
That is concerning and everyone should see that.

[LBM]

how many times did Bob Fontana get hired for the $200,000 sheep tag?? I know of 3 or 4 190+ rams that he guided during the end of Oct-beginning of nov. How much of the money from those tags went back into habitat in the locations where the sheep were killed??
Ya cant really answer how many times Bob was hired for the sheep tag before his untimely death in Africa, his area still took out hunters after that as well. Dont no how much of the money went back into
those locations either. To be honest but sorry not sure the point of the questions or what your asking.

[Bullreaper]

JT,

Just to touch on high fences and why I personally believe fences alone, are not a very good solution to stop sheep from getting hit, you need to have over/underpasses as well. I am not a biologist, scientist and have no idea what the official stats are or anything, so if anyone out there has any of this information or is familiar with the high fence that was put in between Grand Forks and Christina lake, please educate me. This is just my opinion based on what I have seen over the years since that fence was installed. Sure, a lot less wildlife is getting hit on that stretch of highway, but it also blocks wildlife on one side of the valley from accessing around a 20km stretch of river. What was once a grasslands with an abundance of wildlife, has next to nothing since that fence was installed. That entire mountain side and grasslands doesn’t have anything for water, all those creeks dry up every summer, the kettle was the main water source for everything in that area. Now it’s blocked by the fence, which ends right on the edge of City limits in Grand Forks, right beside the river. Anyone who is familiar with the area, they have a serious problem with deer in town. In my opinion, that fence is acting as a funnel, leading wildlife right into town. Then you have the issue of trying to figure out how to get rid of the urban deer. Now the government is spending money trying to solve that problem, when in my opinion, that high fence is the main reason for it. Im sure the people and organizations behind that project had the best of intentions, but I think solving one problem, created a bunch more. If they would have added over/underpasses as well as the fence, what would the results of been? But that comes down to more money Victoria isn’t willing to spend. Although I’m sure what is being spent on dealing with urban deer, would more than pay for a couple over/underpasses. Just my opinion.

[J_T]

^^^^ To be clear. I'm not at all a proponent for high fences. If I could, I would pursue the removal of any high fence that restricts movement and winter range for wildlife. However, when the mortality of our wildlife is highways and railways, we aren't left with a lot of options other than fence and under/overpass. I'm well aware of the current lack of mule deer on the slopes around Gilpin. In the situation you refer to, if the fences along the highway come down, how do you keep mortality due to front bumper collisions down?

The point you raise that we lack real data is a very real consideration. We need allocated money, to inventory our wildlife numbers and their habitat before we can make science supported decisions.

Thanks

[LBM]

^^^^ To be clear. I'm not at all a proponent for high fences. If I could, I would pursue the removal of any high fence that restricts movement and winter range for wildlife. However, when the mortality of our wildlife is highways and railways, we aren't left with a lot of options other than fence and under/overpass. I'm well aware of the current lack of mule deer on the slopes around Gilpin. In the situation you refer to, if the fences along the highway come down, how do you keep mortality due to front bumper collisions down?

The point you raise that we lack real data is a very real consideration. We need allocated money, to inventory our wildlife numbers and their habitat before we can make science supported decisions.

Thanks

Look into how the sheep faired just before banff when the fenced it off years ago, mind you they didnt put in a under or over pass and to many corners
or jogs in the fence. Not sure how they will incircle the whole town of radium, but definately losing to many sheep now.
High fences have really altered/changed the elk travel routes in the windermere area a well elk getting hit along there now as well.

[Bullreaper]

^^^^ To be clear. I'm not at all a proponent for high fences. If I could, I would pursue the removal of any high fence that restricts movement and winter range for wildlife. However, when the mortality of our wildlife is highways and railways, we aren't left with a lot of options other than fence and under/overpass. I'm well aware of the current lack of mule deer on the slopes around Gilpin. In the situation you refer to, if the fences along the highway come down, how do you keep mortality due to front bumper collisions down?

The point you raise that we lack real data is a very real consideration. We need allocated money, to inventory our wildlife numbers and their habitat before we can make science supported decisions.

Thanks


Exactly. There is no easy fix or solutions for the numerous problems our wildlife has. Government action and spending is the core issue we need to get addressed. How do we convince Victoria how serious of an issue this is and it needs to be a priority? I’ve tried writing my MLA’s to no avail. Maybe try a Hunter, outdoorsman, conservationist convoy to Victoria?

[j270wsm]

Ya cant really answer how many times Bob was hired for the sheep tag before his untimely death in Africa, his area still took out hunters after that as well. Dont no how much of the money went back into
those locations either. To be honest but sorry not sure the point of the questions or what your asking.

The question was exactly what I wrote. Which you tried to answer.
Id be willing to bet there was over 1million in funds that were used to purchase the tags that Fontana guided in the Elk and fording valleys and very little if any of that money went back into habitat enhancement for the elk or fording valley.

[LBM]

The question was exactly what I wrote. Which you tried to answer.
Id be willing to bet there was over 1million in funds that were used to purchase the tags that Fontana guided in the Elk and fording valleys and very little if any of that money went back into habitat enhancement for the elk or fording valley.

So still un sure, do you know the answer to your question or just guessing?

[Bullreaper]

Here is an excellent piece on wildlife management. Start at the 7:25 mark. If the link doesn’t work look up Randy Newberg, hunter on youtube. Video title is “where’d the science go!? A new morning show” although it’s based in Montana, tons applies to us as well.
https://youtu.be/PM-_dWXLLKk

[Bugle M In]

Here is an excellent piece on wildlife management. Start at the 7:25 mark. If the link doesn’t work look up Randy Newberg, hunter on youtube. Video title is “where’d the science go!? A new morning show” although it’s based in Montana, tons applies to us as well.
https://youtu.be/PM-_dWXLLKk
Yup, good post.
Like you say, start at 7:25.
The 24:00 mark is also a big point.

The big mistake on top of what was said in that video, is none of what we do, how we do it, and when to do it came with no
financial guarantees to to do.
All our science didn't come with money to back it up, or better still, correct what it was telling was/is going wrong.

[Bugle M In]

Just remember folks, Assiniboine Sheep are down.
And remember, it has been LEH forever!! with hard access and very limited success due to that plus very limited in permits.
It is protected on 3 of 4 sides by national park, and it s south side does have a ton of logging and a fire (outside its boundary).

Really, if there should be 1 SUCCESS STORY, where going to LEH has created a BOUNCE BACK, then this should be THE ONE.
But nope!
WHY, because whatever the issue is, the DECLINE IS NOT HUNTING!

And they have know that for a long time now.
And like always, nothing really gets done.
They put it on the LEH list, and then walk away saying "we did all we could".

Which is kind of true, because there is nothing else they can do!!
There is no resources for them to look into it and address and correct it..
Things go LEH as a way to look like they have taken action based on the science and #'s.
And then they stay LEH because nothing more is built into the system to fix.

And, because there is nothing left to fix it, quite often, like in Assiniboine, we will watch them go to almost nothing.
And that is basically a park.
Imagine some of the areas that aren't as unique as Assiniboine!!!!!
They could go from bad to into the tank in no time at all.

This is more than just going GOS to LEH.
Its about what is going to change to make the trend to go in the right direction, not just for sheep but other species.
Which so far, has been nothing.

[LBM]

Just remember folks, Assiniboine Sheep are down.
And remember, it has been LEH forever!! with hard access and very limited success due to that plus very limited in permits.
It is protected on 3 of 4 sides by national park, and it s south side does have a ton of logging and a fire (outside its boundary).

Really, if there should be 1 SUCCESS STORY, where going to LEH has created a BOUNCE BACK, then this should be THE ONE.
But nope!
WHY, because whatever the issue is, the DECLINE IS NOT HUNTING!

And they have know that for a long time now.
And like always, nothing really gets done.
They put it on the LEH list, and then walk away saying "we did all we could".

Which is kind of true, because there is nothing else they can do!!
There is no resources for them to look into it and address and correct it..
Things go LEH as a way to look like they have taken action based on the science and #'s.
And then they stay LEH because nothing more is built into the system to fix.

And, because there is nothing left to fix it, quite often, like in Assiniboine, we will watch them go to almost nothing.
And that is basically a park.
Imagine some of the areas that aren't as unique as Assiniboine!!!!!
They could go from bad to into the tank in no time at all.

This is more than just going GOS to LEH.
Its about what is going to change to make the trend to go in the right direction, not just for sheep but other species.
Which so far, has been nothing.

Just curious when was the last time you were in the Assiniboine and what you saw for sheep, and which way
you went in up the simpson through the park or up the cross.
I dont think its been LEH for ever think it use to be GOS.
Would have been interesting to have a trail camera on the simpson trail head
a decade or 2 ago.

[J_T]

Not sure if I did this link properly. Nice to see decisions being made after data is collected and solutions found. It takes money, time and resources on the ground. Regulation modification is (generally) not a solution.

Instead, we seem to sit back with a very narrow view of the problems faced, ignoring the exploration of creative solutions, with often no data and lacking the commitment to use the data and solutions with tangible results.



https://www.rmef.org/elk-network/new-film-explores-barriers-to-big-game-migration/

[LBM]

Not sure if I did this link properly. Nice to see decisions being made after data is collected and solutions found. It takes money, time and resources on the ground. Regulation modification is (generally) not a solution.

Instead, we seem to sit back with a very narrow view of the problems faced, ignoring the exploration of creative solutions, with often no data and lacking the commitment to use the data and solutions with tangible results.



https://www.rmef.org/elk-network/new-film-explores-barriers-to-big-game-migration/

Interesting watch there is others to watch as well Eastmans has one out as well on migration and conflicts, mainly on mule deer.

[Rackmastr]

Bighorn Sheep LEH R4 with Gerry Paille - BCWF - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1hd66tRBSR4)

[LBM]

Bighorn Sheep LEH R4 with Gerry Paille - BCWF - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1hd66tRBSR4)

Will admit have only watched to the 14 minute mark so far but you have a BCWF rep doing the talking and
says "I dont no if Radium sheep are even hunted I dont think they are" why have a guy talking about something
he doesnt know.

[bearvalley]

Bighorn Sheep LEH R4 with Gerry Paille - BCWF - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1hd66tRBSR4)

Gerry does a good, fair job of explaining how allocation, quota, LEH and GOS works for all.

[Rackmastr]

Will admit have only watched to the 14 minute mark so far but you have a BCWF rep doing the talking and
says "I dont no if Radium sheep are even hunted I dont think they are" why have a guy talking about something
he doesnt know.

Gerry can reply here as well I'm sure, but to say that he's a guy talking about something he doesnt know is ridiculous. Gerry is well versed in allocation/quota and provincial wildlife management, which is what he's discussing. I didnt hear him say anything about Reg 4 sheep specifically nor claim to be an expert in that. A lot of confusion exists out there about allocation (myself included) and he's always done a great job at explaining it in terms that are easy to understand.

[LBM]

Gerry can reply here as well I'm sure, but to say that he's a guy talking about something he doesnt know is ridiculous. Gerry is well versed in allocation/quota and provincial wildlife management, which is what he's discussing. I didnt hear him say anything about Reg 4 sheep specifically nor claim to be an expert in that. A lot of confusion exists out there about allocation (myself included) and he's always done a great job at explaining it in terms that are easy to understand.
Yes may be well versed in allocation/quota. The host makes it sound like its about region 4 sheep. Gerry mentions Radium sheep, and says he doesnt even know if there hunted.
This thread is about Region 4 sheep.

[high horse Hal]

Bighorn Sheep LEH R4 with Gerry Paille - BCWF - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1hd66tRBSR4)Thanks
its well worth understanding to relation of LEH and allocations
for any population , including reg 4 bighorns

[Rackmastr]

Yes may be well versed in allocation/quota. The host makes it sound like its about region 4 sheep. Gerry mentions Radium sheep, and says he doesnt even know if there hunted.
This thread is about Region 4 sheep.

Well read into it or draw whatever assumptions you like then. The information is out there to allow those to understand more about wildlife management and I found it relevant to the Reg 4 sheep discussion.

[LBM]

Well read into it or draw whatever assumptions you like then. The information is out there to allow those to understand more about wildlife management and I found it relevant to the Reg 4 sheep discussion.

Well listened to the rest yes good to learn about the allocation policy.
Had to chuckle at some of the stuff the host was putting out there.

[porthunter]

https://open.spotify.com/episode/52CrLedwW5ynixh1MuEOw3?si=wHFM1-CqTryP1XkR-PBwUA

Last day today folks, get your comments in.

A few of us had a chat earlier this week on the idea of LEH and it went up today(Link above)

[j270wsm]

So still un sure, do you know the answer to your question or just guessing?


I do not know how much/if any money has gone back into the elk valley.
Judging from other threads/comments, you seem to have some knowledge of what goes on in this corner of the province so I though I’d throw a couple questions at you.
Judging from what I’ve seen over the last 25yrs…..I can only assume it’s been very little to none. Considering how much $$ those auctioned tags sold for and the fact that those world class rams were taken from the elk and fording valleys….I would have hoped some of the $$ would have been put back into the specific areas that were hunted.

[LBM]

I do not know how much/if any money has gone back into the elk valley.
Judging from other threads/comments, you seem to have some knowledge of what goes on in this corner of the province so I though I’d throw a couple questions at you.
Judging from what I’ve seen over the last 25yrs…..I can only assume it’s been very little to none. Considering how much $$ those auctioned tags sold for and the fact that those world class rams were taken from the elk and fording valleys….I would have hoped some of the $$ would have been put back into the specific areas that were hunted.

Ya sorry dont know where the money goes, wssbc might know. If it goes the way of the tag and license fees then probable not much goes back to the wildlife.

[high horse Hal]

thought for sure you would know whether the funds go to HCTF

[bighornbob]

I do not know how much/if any money has gone back into the elk valley.
Judging from other threads/comments, you seem to have some knowledge of what goes on in this corner of the province so I though I’d throw a couple questions at you.
Judging from what I’ve seen over the last 25yrs…..I can only assume it’s been very little to none. Considering how much $$ those auctioned tags sold for and the fact that those world class rams were taken from the elk and fording valleys….I would have hoped some of the $$ would have been put back into the specific areas that were hunted.

Wrong on all fronts. From a HCTF report summarizing the funds from 2000-2010. Excerpt from the report.

Project Investments: Summary
About $1.33 million, or 84% of total revenue received was invested in 46 unique conservation projects.
• Sheep Sub Account
- Over $1.1 million was invested in 39 mountain sheep projects.
- The Kootenay Region had the most projects (12) and received the most funding ($365,000).
- The Restoration of California Bighorn Sheep Metapopulation in the South Okanagan (8-207) was the project that received the largest amount of financial support - $215,000 over 5 years.
• Other Wildlife Sub Account
- Almost $211,000 was invested in 11 projects for wildlife other than mountain sheep.
- The Kootenay Region had the most projects (4) and received the most funding ($107,000).
- Noxious Weed Control on Bighorn Sheep Ranges (4-403) was the project that received the largest amount of financial support - $38,128 over 7 years.
• Four projects received financial support from both sub accounts.


If interested just google the title to read the whole report.

Investing in Conservation with Revenue from British Columbia’s Special Wildlife Permits 2000 – 2010

BHB