'Heavier Optics saves you walking' .... Do they? (sheep/goat)

[dapesche]

the sheep hunting research and education continues.... :)

I have a pretty sweet kowa 663ed that is older, has the fluorite objective and is light, but it lacks the FOV and the brightness at 60x that the newer spotters give you.
I am leaning towards a new spotter in the 77 or 85/88 objective range.

Curious to have all of your opinions:

I feel like either you have a higher power, larger objective (65-85mm) spotter paired with a lower power pair of binos (8x/10x) or a a higher power set of binos (12x/15x) paired with a smaller, lighter spotter (50-55 objective).
Does Item 1 even matter, should I just go with a larger spotter and deal with the weight b/c it will save me a lot of walking...


Thanks!

[mod7rem]

I started a couple years with a 50mm Bushnell Trophy, then a couple years with a Pentax PFed 65mm, then many years with a Kowa Prominar 663 (great scope), now I’ve been using a Kowa Prominar 773 for the last 3-4 years. My binos have been 10x, 8.5x and currently 8x.
I’ve killed sheep using all of those spotting scopes but I wouldn’t want to take a step back from the 77mm. I think I’ve reached my limit for performance vs weight to carry. I’m sure an 88mm would be awesome but I don’t want to add any more weight so I don’t even want to try one.

[dapesche]

I started a couple years with a 50mm Bushnell Trophy, then a couple years with a Pentax PFed 65mm, then many years with a Kowa Prominar 663 (great scope), now I’ve been using a Kowa Prominar 773 for the last 3-4 years. My binos have been 10x, 8.5x and currently 8x.
I’ve killed sheep using all of those spotting scopes but I wouldn’t want to take a step back from the 77mm. I think I’ve reached my limit for performance vs weight to carry. I’m sure an 88mm would be awesome but I don’t want to add any more weight so I don’t even want to try one.

Good to hear that they 77 was a worthy upgrade.

I had ordered the 65atx but it was marginally better than my 663 so I am sending it back. The 85atx is damn heavy and I think I'd prefer the 883 over the 85atx but that's bringing me to the 773, like you.

[mod7rem]

A couple years ago a friend of mine was considering getting something different than his swaro 65mm, I can’t remember which model.
We took my Kowa 773, his Swaro 65, borrowed a new swaro 65mm, borrowed a used swaro 80mm and compared all of them side by side for an afternoon.
We both preferred the 773 over all of them. The new 65mm swaro was the closest. I’m sure a new model of the swaro 80mm and up would have been great as well.

[mod7rem]

I think the only thing that’ll touch the 88mm Kowa Prominar with flourtite crystal lenses, is the Swaro 95mm. I know guys that love the Swaro 95mm for sheep hunting.

[madcalfe]

10x42 binos and a 65mm leica is good enough for me.

[decker9]

I got to compare a kowa (not sure which one, 773 I believe) to my ats 65 last summer, I could see the difference, plus liked the kowa focus better. Any advantage, is an advantage.

[Weatherby Fan]

When it comes to Sheep hunting I would say take higher power and bigger objective if you don't mind packing it, on our fly in the area was so vast that 10X Leica binoculars were definitely not enough for most of the glassing, I will take some 15x56 next time in there and use them on a tripod, I use a Leica 25-50x65 spotter and also have the 1.8 Doubler = up to 90X which I used a lot, I guess in the end you have to decide what's needed for the area your hunting.

[mod7rem]

When it comes to Sheep hunting I would say take higher power and bigger objective if you don't mind packing it, on our fly in the area was so vast that 10X Leica binoculars were definitely not enough for most of the glassing, I will take some 15x56 next time in there and use them on a tripod, I use a Leica 25-50x65 spotter and also have the 1.8 Doubler = up to 90X which I used a lot, I guess in the end you have to decide what's needed for the area your hunting.

I’ve considered getting one for my Kowa 773 but haven’t gone through with it yet. So far I haven’t decided if it would be useful to justify the money and weight. They’re definitely not cheap. Do you find it worth the money and weight?

[BimmerBob]

I am wondering when a mix of electronic processing and fine optics will come into effect for this sort of use where the scope/camera is linked to a handheld viewing screen. Satellites can now read the news from a magazine being read by a man sitting on a bench in Central Park and computing power combined with light weight optics may be possible to increase resolution and reduce weight...

[twoSevenO]

I started a couple years with a 50mm Bushnell Trophy, then a couple years with a Pentax PFed 65mm, then many years with a Kowa Prominar 663 (great scope), now I’ve been using a Kowa Prominar 773 for the last 3-4 years. My binos have been 10x, 8.5x and currently 8x.
I’ve killed sheep using all of those spotting scopes but I wouldn’t want to take a step back from the 77mm. I think I’ve reached my limit for performance vs weight to carry. I’m sure an 88mm would be awesome but I don’t want to add any more weight so I don’t even want to try one.


How do you find the brightness at max magnification?

I have a vortex razor 65mm and max magnification (48x) brightness is not that great. The exit pupil is just so tiny at that magnification. I checked out a Swarovski 65mm and found it a bit too dim as well at 50x or higher.

Curious if you saw a noticeable improvement with the 77mm

[dapesche]

Here is my comparison of the kowa 663ed vs the swaro sts65

https://imgur.com/a/bmc5TqB

[twoSevenO]

Here is my comparison of the kowa 663ed vs the swaro sts65

https://imgur.com/a/bmc5TqB


The contrast and edge brightness appears MUCH higher on the Kowa.

However, the Swaro seems to retain maybe more sharpness? Look at the fence pickets against the white car near the rear door. Interesting.

Did you take pictures with a phone? It would be interesting to use a DSLR and set to manual mode so that the aperture, shutter and exposure are locked down and 100% same between pics. This can vary a bit on the phone each picture. However, you are getting pretty consistent results.

[dapesche]

The contrast and edge brightness appears MUCH higher on the Kowa.

However, the Swaro seems to retain maybe more sharpness? Look at the fence pickets against the white car near the rear door. Interesting.

Did you take pictures with a phone? It would be interesting to use a DSLR and set to manual mode so that the aperture, shutter and exposure are locked down and 100% same between pics. This can vary a bit on the phone each picture. However, you are getting pretty consistent results.

I set my phone to pro mode.
All settings the same at each magnification.

[dapesche]

I really liked the kowa's contrast.
If I was trying to age a sheep, I think the kowa would be easier.

Both were good. The swaro cost is damn near 4x higher and that's why I sent it back and why I am focused on a bigger objective.

I think that 663ed is just a sweet unit that most would be happy with. That 50-60x drop off will drive me nuts when I head north.

[smallfry14]

I got talked into the 80mm swaro when I upgraded 2 years ago, and after hunting with a bunch of guys using the 65mm swaro, and spending a lot of time looking through both, I think at this point I'd damn near trade my 80mm straight across for the 65mm. Probably going to "downsize" soon. The extra size and weight are not worth it for me, the 65's did everything my 80 would in every real life situation we were in.
For my eyes anyway, my $0.02.

[dapesche]

I got talked into the 80mm swaro when I upgraded 2 years ago, and after hunting with a bunch of guys using the 65mm swaro, and spending a lot of time looking through both, I think at this point I'd damn near trade my 80mm straight across for the 65mm. Probably going to "downsize" soon. The extra size and weight are not worth it for me, the 65's did everything my 80 would in every real life situation we were in.
For my eyes anyway, my $0.02.

helpful comment.

Like my subject heading says, I am trying to figure out if the extra glass is worth it. If it can save me walking a couple km's in the mtns that's less water, less energy, and less time wasted.
Having never been up there, I am curious if the bigger objective is a nice to have vs. a need to have. I feel that it is a need to have when hunting sheep to be able to dial in to 60x and not have the drop off in quality.

I am not a big fan of paying a premium for a brand. Like buying a BMW or a mercedes....I am more of a Toyota kind of guy. I feel like Swaro is the BMW and Kowa is the toyota, which is funny b/c it's the same European vs Japanese manufacturer debate.

[SR80]

Have you spoken with Omer about this and got his opinion?

[Elkaddict]

You aren't giving much up in size and weight if you step up to Kowa 773. The 773 is only half an inch longer and roughly half a lb. heavier (if I read it correctly). The 883, roughly another inch and another half lb. beyond the 773. I think the 773 would be a good compromise in performance vs additional bulk. The magnesium body gives the Kowa a great weight advantage over its peers. I think smallfry14's 80 would be about 57oz vs 46 for the 773? If you're anywhere near Cranbrook you're welcome to come and compare my 773 to your current scope.

[300rum700]

The gold standard for an optics kit os 10x42 binos and a 20-60x 65 spotter. You’ll find 90% of guys in the mountains with this combo, bigger of either won’t save you any walking you’ll just be carrying more weight. If I were to change either of the two I’d go with 15x56 binos but they’re limited to tripod use only.

[300rum700]

helpful comment.

Like my subject heading says, I am trying to figure out if the extra glass is worth it. If it can save me walking a couple km's in the mtns that's less water, less energy, and less time wasted.
Having never been up there, I am curious if the bigger objective is a nice to have vs. a need to have. I feel that it is a need to have when hunting sheep to be able to dial in to 60x and not have the drop off in quality.

I am not a big fan of paying a premium for a brand. Like buying a BMW or a mercedes....I am more of a Toyota kind of guy. I feel like Swaro is the BMW and Kowa is the toyota, which is funny b/c it's the same European vs Japanese manufacturer debate.


No the bigger objective is not a need to have on max magnification. The only real way to save walking is to buy quality glass and no it’s not a linear curve for cost vs quality, the above comparison is from a non HD sts vs a Ed kowa, apples to grapefruit. Put it next to the atx and the results won’t be the same.

[dapesche]

No the bigger objective is not a need to have on max magnification. The only real way to save walking is to buy quality glass and no it’s not a linear curve for cost vs quality, the above comparison is from a non HD sts vs a Ed kowa, apples to grapefruit. Put it next to the atx and the results won’t be the same.

I bought the 65atx and compared them. I am returning it. I then borrowed a friend's 65sts HD and took those comparison photos.

I was going to do the same photos for comparison with the 65 atx but because you need to screw the atx together I didn't want to risk scratching it and making the return not possible.

With my eye, I could see the numbers on the clock that was in the carport of that garage in the pictures I linked to. With the kowa I could see the numbers on the clock amd the kowa seem to be more 'contrasty'. The swaro showed the numbers but they were a bit more blurred.

Swaro's eyepiece was nicer and the fov of view was better but is it worth the extra 3k. For me it wasn't and that's why it's going back.

[dapesche]

The gold standard for an optics kit os 10x42 binos and a 20-60x 65 spotter. You’ll find 90% of guys in the mountains with this combo, bigger of either won’t save you any walking you’ll just be carrying more weight. If I were to change either of the two I’d go with 15x56 binos but they’re limited to tripod use only.

Makes sense. Thanks

[mod7rem]

How do you find the brightness at max magnification?

I have a vortex razor 65mm and max magnification (48x) brightness is not that great. The exit pupil is just so tiny at that magnification. I checked out a Swarovski 65mm and found it a bit too dim as well at 50x or higher.

Curious if you saw a noticeable improvement with the 77mm

The brightness at 60x is definitely better with the 773 vs the 663 that I had before. But I have no way of putting any kind of value to it. Most of the viewing for me is spent in the 25x to 45x range with this scope, but it’s very usable at 60x with good conditions.

It’s also not just a bigger objective that you get with the 773/774. It also uses the newer wide angle zoom eyepiece.

The 773/774 Prominar uses the 25-60x TE-11WZ eyepiece. It has two XD lenses so it’s a newer generation eyepiece.

The 663/664 uses the TE-9Z zoom eyepiece.

[mod7rem]

You aren't giving much up in size and weight if you step up to Kowa 773. The 773 is only half an inch longer and roughly half a lb. heavier (if I read it correctly). The 883, roughly another inch and another half lb. beyond the 773. I think the 773 would be a good compromise in performance vs additional bulk. The magnesium body gives the Kowa a great weight advantage over its peers. I think smallfry14's 80 would be about 57oz vs 46 for the 773? If you're anywhere near Cranbrook you're welcome to come and compare my 773 to your current scope.

I agree. The 773/774 has Magnesium body and chassis style like the 883/884, and uses the same newer wide angle zoom eyepiece 25-60x TN-11WZ.
The 663/664 uses a polycarbonate body, and the older TN-9Z 20-60x zoom eyepiece.

But I believe both models use XD lenses in the scope body. Not the pure fluorite crystal lenses like in the 883/884 and 553/554.

[dapesche]

You aren't giving much up in size and weight if you step up to Kowa 773. The 773 is only half an inch longer and roughly half a lb. heavier (if I read it correctly). The 883, roughly another inch and another half lb. beyond the 773. I think the 773 would be a good compromise in performance vs additional bulk. The magnesium body gives the Kowa a great weight advantage over its peers. I think smallfry14's 80 would be about 57oz vs 46 for the 773? If you're anywhere near Cranbrook you're welcome to come and compare my 773 to your current scope.

thanks for the offer. I am in nelson. Bit of a long drive.

Buying this swaro is turning into a costly mistake. returning the damn thing ain't cheap.

[Elkaddict]

thanks for the offer. I am in nelson. Bit of a long drive.

This time of year ya, I hear you. No expiration date on the offer. If you haven't pulled the trigger yet and find yourself in this neck of the woods in warmer weather by all means, look me up.

I've thought about this a couple of times,...... it would be cool to get some members together on a mountain somewhere for an "optics evening". Everyone bring what you use, set them up and have a gear comparo. Could be lots of fun.

[stoneramhunter]

interesting chats on optics i have a swaro spotting scope had it for a long time. to me the i would be interested in the the differences at early morning while light level is low and that magic time just before the sun is gone. Ive hunted sheep for many years with 10 x 42 swaro and my swaro spotting scope. i believe it has made the difference in my sheep hunting worth the weight to me.

[dapesche]

This time of year ya, I hear you. No expiration date on the offer. If you haven't pulled the trigger yet and find yourself in this neck of the woods in warmer weather by all means, look me up.

I've thought about this a couple of times,...... it would be cool to get some members together on a mountain somewhere for an "optics evening". Everyone bring what you use, set them up and have a gear comparo. Could be lots of fun.

Be good if there was a goat or sheep count again.
I'm sure between 20 hunters and helpers you'd have a pretty good assortment of brands and magnifications.

[dapesche]

interesting chats on optics i have a swaro spotting scope had it for a long time. to me the i would be interested in the the differences at early morning while light level is low and that magic time just before the sun is gone. Ive hunted sheep for many years with 10 x 42 swaro and my swaro spotting scope. i believe it has made the difference in my sheep hunting worth the weight to me.

Not sure if you looked at these pictures yet that I shared.
https://imgur.com/a/bmc5TqB

At 20x you can see the van and carport to the top left.
I was going back and forth between the kowa and the 65atx trying to notice a difference at twightlight and into darkness.

I focused on the licence plates and the kowa was again sharper. There was something that was a bit bright on the side of the house that was cedar coloured and I kept going back and forth to see if that coloured popped better with either of them and there wasn't a noticeable difference. At that point I made the call to return it. I wanted to do some comparison photos with the 65atx like I did with the 65ats but I didn't want to scratch the atx and make it unreturnable.

Another observation.
I seemed to be able to nail the focus better with the kowa and I think that's due to it being noticeably sharper.

I'm sure you've been there before when you are cycling the focus trying to find the sharpest image.

In my comparison pics I may have gotten the focus wrong with the 65ats and focused nearer to me.

I think the biggest thing is that both swaro and kowa are excellent. For me, the swaro wasn't worth the extra cash for me and I'll look for a 773.

Speaking to a kowa dealer out of the US, he mentioned an upgraded 66 is in the works. He expected a test model this year and it didn't show so he expects that it might be a 2023 release.

[mod7rem]

Another improvement for me in going from a 663 Prominar to the 773 Prominar was the focus knob. The 773 has a dual focus with fine and coarse focus adjustment. Guys that have tried my Kowa have preferred the Kowa focus system over their Swarovski. They claimed more scope movement when trying to rotate the Swaro focus ring.

[Ride Red]

I’ll start with, everybody’s eyes are different. I switched to a Vortex Razer HD 16-48x65 when they came out. I’ve looked through many different scopes and can appreciate the quality out there amongst the brands. I’m always trying to stay light and don’t think I’ll venture past a 65mm which has worked for me for close to 40 years since my first Tasco 20-60. The only thing I can say is, find what works for your eyes and be confident with that purchase. I’ve met guys who have spent too little, to ones who mortgaged the house on optics. There needs to be a balance for what works for you, unless you have never ending funds. Try them all out, your eyes will let you know which ones they are happiest with.

https://youtu.be/nD1xj8V4EcE

[dapesche]

Another improvement for me in going from a 663 Prominar to the 773 Prominar was the focus knob. The 773 has a dual focus with fine and coarse focus adjustment. Guys that have tried my Kowa have preferred the Kowa focus system over their Swarovski. They claimed more scope movement when trying to rotate the Swaro focus ring.

I agree with you regarding the focus knob. I guess you could shift the mount position on the tripod to get a better balance but I definitely found focusing with the barrel on the swaro to really shake the image.

773 is very nice. will get the job done.