Will R5 ever have an end to the 10 Day Closure and Concerns about it.

[Bugle M In]

I am not asking this out of Curiosity, but in fact out of Concern.
The Concern is because of some of the Rumblings I am hearing thru discussions with others about some
Areas in R3 bordering R5 and the impacts R3 is starting to see and show signs of.

Firstly, I like to say I was worried when I heard that R5 would close for 10 Days from the onset.
And many that I speak to, both long time hunters and FN and Ranchers are seeing the same issues.
The first issue is the increase in Hunters in some of the MU's, which i would say have seen a 300 to 400%
increase (just an observation, not stat).
Right from the get go, there was an increase, and over time, word of mouth and I guess hunters inviting
other friends has helped create further increase in Hunter #'s.

Now, talking to a few other long time Hunters (40 years + and hunt theses MU's often in the season), there
certainly seems to be grounds for concern.
MD Doe #'s seem to be decreasing, but what is really noticeable is the "Lack of Mature MD Bucks" in these
MU's.
The Local Ranchers in the Area also saying the same thing.
One that I talked to said that they have a filed with hay bails, and cameras, and for years would see upwards of 50 MD at night, mostly Doe, but with Bucks.
Now, they are barely seeing 20, and only 1 reasonable mature MD Buck (which was poached on their
property, by whom, who knows, maybe hunters, maybe FN?).
Talking to a couple of FN from the nearby Bands, I am hearing the exact same thing from them.
So much so, that there are "whispers" of what they want to see happen.

The FN Bands are talking about "Full on Closures, or possibly Rotating Full on Closures, alternating each
year".
These areas would be that where we have seen Fires this season as well as some from a few years ago.
(And I am not joking here folks!).

Ranchers are posting up Signs, due to all the hunting traffic and concerns for safety and livestock etc.
(Sounds like The Cattleman's Ranch Association is stepping in to help these smaller Ranches and you
will probably see some new signage for next year! but some just went up now from what I am told).

As for some of the long time Frequent Hunters of MD, there is now the thought that the "Any Buck Season"
should be removed from R3, or at least certain MU's, due to the lack of mature MD buck sightings.
(if those rumblings take off in certain R&G clubs, who knows how far up that travels then??)
The other rationale being to get rid of some of the heavy traffic of hunters these same MU's are seeing.

I know some of these areas well.
I have to be honest and there is certainly grounds for concern.
Its hard to spot a mature MD buck
And, if one does get taken by Hunters, they are pretty damn small now (no more than 3.5 years of age imo)
And I am now seeing MD Doe #'s going down (and I was always in the past saying #'s were stable but
could never figure out why #'s weren't increasing as many of the Mature Doe had 1, if not 2 yearlings)

We also had some large Fires, and I don't think anyone, from any of the Groups I mentioned above can
really say if possibly the lack of MD or dwindling #'s is due to these big fires (it could be).
That is yet to be seen, as it will take a few years to get back on track, but don't think you will see deer
using all of the same terrain as much as they did pre-fire.

But, 2 elements are true, imo.
Hunter Traffic has gone way way up.
Mature Buck # have gone way down.
(there were quite a few small bucks taken this year in the any buck season from reports in October).

The reason I ask about R5 closure, is the fact that it is causing some real issues now.
If it doesn't get re-opened, and help take away some the hunting pressure in those R3 M's, we might be
facing further restrictions or potentially closures in R3.

When you start having experienced long time hunters, Ranchers and the FN all saying the same thing,
then there certainly will be talks going on shortly I fear.

For my part, when having these one to one discussions, I ask everyone to be patient and see what comes
from the Southern MD Study.
We are seeing that Cougar are doing their part for sure.
And we need to know all the factors before we start saying, restrict this or close that!
Its great that this study is collaring Doe and yearlings, as I would like to understand why we aren't really
seeing an increase in MD# over time.
Only lacking point I see is that there aren't any mature MD being collared, as to see what is their fate.
Yes, Doe are still getting pregnant at a high rate, but by who and what age????
So, it still wont have all the answers.
And whether something comes from it, who knows, I ain't holding my breath.

Certainly there is some poaching element going on.
I have seen small bucks lying dead with only their antlers cut off.
Doe left to rot (and they weren't lost)
Some other incidents as well, so it is happening.
And no one really knows where the FN #'s fall into it all.
I have had conversations with some band members, and some say they have taken 1 or 2, while others
report they have taken 4 in a season and one individual proudly stating he took 20 in one season.
What to think, who to believe?.

So, I ask, what is going on with R5 and may we see it reopened at some point?
It could take the ever increasing pressure off of some of the R3 MU's, imo.
I am trying to not hit the Panic Button here.
But I am conveyancing that there is a lot of talk starting to develop, and solutions differ depending on which
group you are talking to, but all of them are saying something needs to change ASAP.

I am saying something is going to change soon, because too many are starting to talk.
The talk always include restriction or closure.
That's concerning, so, that is my heads up to all.

[Livewire322]

Thanks for the write up - it was an interesting read.
Far more reasonable than a full on closure would be a motor vehicle restriction or an equipment restriction (archery only).

It’s frustrating that the ministry/bios seem to want to go nuclear right off the hop (as evidenced by the poorly executed 10 day closure in R5 but not in R3).

[rageous]

Talked to a truck leaving a MV closure area with a cow moose and 1 mule deer doe and decent mule deer buck in the back.

“We are aloud to hunt anywhere”

[Bugle M In]

Talked to a truck leaving a MV closure area with a cow moose and 1 mule deer doe and decent mule deer buck in the back.

“We are aloud to hunt anywhere”
Which Region are you speaking of...R5 or R3?
By now, if R5 10 day closure was o benefit to the Region, there should major improvements by now in the quality of Bucks and
their maturity.
Certainly long enough now to see if it helped.

[cameron0518]

I think that social media has been extremely destructive in what people are seeing in the bush. It is obvious that more hunters in an area equals seeing less game. I don't care if you are road hunting, standing, sitting or hiking. More guys still equals less game. Not saying there can't be success. I have had areas that were posted on here and were destroyed because of the amount of hunters that flocked to it. Look up Jelvis and his posts years back if you want to figure out what happened in region 3. Region 5 has the same issue going on. A "good" hunter used to keep their mouths shut and sure the heck wouldn't post it on a forum to get 1000+ reads. I go hunting to get away from people and to see game, not to invite everyone to a sausage party. Logging is all but dead in this province. Gone are the days of new logging slashes that made for exciting times. Clearcutting never left habitat for the animals to live in and grow. There are many factors that have contributed to lower number of mature bucks that could be discussed for days.

[Bugle M In]

Thanks for the write up - it was an interesting read.
Far more reasonable than a full on closure would be a motor vehicle restriction or an equipment restriction (archery only).

It’s frustrating that the ministry/bios seem to want to go nuclear right off the hop (as evidenced by the poorly executed 10 day closure in R5 but not in R3).

Well, i am not sure what the Ministry will do.
I am only stating what i am hearing in discussions with the 3 groups i mentioned in the OP.

You bring up MVR.
That's another thing that could compound further issues in MU's like i am speaking of.
Yes, some hunters will enjoy the MVR areas and go out on foot.
But many will now seek alternative areas from what was once their traditional areas to hunt, especially around Nov 11 week.
We just had new MVR's put in place in may of those new fires areas this year.
And some will find that now too hard to access their honey holes.
Which means they also now get pushed into another area.
So again, possibly more hunters being squeezed into the same areas, further compounding the problem already occurring even
furthermore????
IMO

[moosinaround]

7B went to a closure, where mule deer do not open till Nov 1, and it is only 4 point. There is an antlerless bow only season in the beginning of September. I do see some beauty mulie bucks up north. Folks still seem to fill their freezers up there in the Peace! moosin

[Imdone]

Interesting,
Butttt, since when has the there ever been a regulation similar to this put in place then rescinded .
Personally, I don't ever recall.
Our Wildlife Management is pathetic really. Governments past and present do not deem it a priority at all.
FFS, we still ONLY get 7 % of our license and tags fees back into habitat. Government doesn't CARE.

We are a small group and make ZERO difference at the polls come election time.

[blacklab]

I thought we were told that when we reduced white tail numbers, mule deer populations would bounce back.

[Livewire322]

Well, i am not sure what the Ministry will do.
I am only stating what i am hearing in discussions with the 3 groups i mentioned in the OP.

You bring up MVR.
That's another thing that could compound further issues in MU's like i am speaking of.
Yes, some hunters will enjoy the MVR areas and go out on foot.
But many will now seek alternative areas from what was once their traditional areas to hunt, especially around Nov 11 week.
We just had new MVR's put in place in may of those new fires areas this year.
And some will find that now too hard to access their honey holes.
Which means they also now get pushed into another area.
So again, possibly more hunters being squeezed into the same areas, further compounding the problem already occurring even
furthermore????
IMO

Fair enough, but this all seems like a miss-coordination on the MoE’s part - i.e., no thought of pushing hunters to other areas.
I’m not saying they should use MVRs specifically, but it could be a tool used. Same with a restriction on tackle type.
It just better be coordinated across neighbouring regions to avoid spill over into new areas.


One anecdotal story for your pile:
I’ve hunted 3-17, -18, -19, and -29 extensively over the past 10 years. I hadn’t been in 3-17 since the Elephant hill fire and successive ATV restrictions, but I returned to 3-17 this year to find that roads/trails which were once barely passable by ATV have been cut open wide enough to allow full sized pickups through and there were more vehicles than I ever remember seeing. So, yes, there is certainly an effect of pushing hunters from one area to another with poorly coordinated restrictions.

[boxhitch]

iirc the changes in Reg 5 md were to address hunters concerns raised in the large, round table consultations and hunter satisfaction surveys back a few years ago
Just shows to go ya not all will ever be pleased

[horshur]

I thought we were told that when we reduced white tail numbers, mule deer populations would bounce back.

It is happening same as in okanogan. LOL

[horshur]

I am not asking this out of Curiosity, but in fact out of Concern.
The Concern is because of some of the Rumblings I am hearing thru discussions with others about some
Areas in R3 bordering R5 and the impacts R3 is starting to see and show signs of.

Firstly, I like to say I was worried when I heard that R5 would close for 10 Days from the onset.
And many that I speak to, both long time hunters and FN and Ranchers are seeing the same issues.
The first issue is the increase in Hunters in some of the MU's, which i would say have seen a 300 to 400%
increase (just an observation, not stat).
Right from the get go, there was an increase, and over time, word of mouth and I guess hunters inviting
other friends has helped create further increase in Hunter #'s.

Now, talking to a few other long time Hunters (40 years + and hunt theses MU's often in the season), there
certainly seems to be grounds for concern.
MD Doe #'s seem to be decreasing, but what is really noticeable is the "Lack of Mature MD Bucks" in these
MU's.
The Local Ranchers in the Area also saying the same thing.
One that I talked to said that they have a filed with hay bails, and cameras, and for years would see upwards of 50 MD at night, mostly Doe, but with Bucks.
Now, they are barely seeing 20, and only 1 reasonable mature MD Buck (which was poached on their
property, by whom, who knows, maybe hunters, maybe FN?).
Talking to a couple of FN from the nearby Bands, I am hearing the exact same thing from them.
So much so, that there are "whispers" of what they want to see happen.

The FN Bands are talking about "Full on Closures, or possibly Rotating Full on Closures, alternating each
year".
These areas would be that where we have seen Fires this season as well as some from a few years ago.
(And I am not joking here folks!).

Ranchers are posting up Signs, due to all the hunting traffic and concerns for safety and livestock etc.
(Sounds like The Cattleman's Ranch Association is stepping in to help these smaller Ranches and you
will probably see some new signage for next year! but some just went up now from what I am told).

As for some of the long time Frequent Hunters of MD, there is now the thought that the "Any Buck Season"
should be removed from R3, or at least certain MU's, due to the lack of mature MD buck sightings.
(if those rumblings take off in certain R&G clubs, who knows how far up that travels then??)
The other rationale being to get rid of some of the heavy traffic of hunters these same MU's are seeing.

I know some of these areas well.
I have to be honest and there is certainly grounds for concern.
Its hard to spot a mature MD buck
And, if one does get taken by Hunters, they are pretty damn small now (no more than 3.5 years of age imo)
And I am now seeing MD Doe #'s going down (and I was always in the past saying #'s were stable but
could never figure out why #'s weren't increasing as many of the Mature Doe had 1, if not 2 yearlings)

We also had some large Fires, and I don't think anyone, from any of the Groups I mentioned above can
really say if possibly the lack of MD or dwindling #'s is due to these big fires (it could be).
That is yet to be seen, as it will take a few years to get back on track, but don't think you will see deer
using all of the same terrain as much as they did pre-fire.

But, 2 elements are true, imo.
Hunter Traffic has gone way way up.
Mature Buck # have gone way down.
(there were quite a few small bucks taken this year in the any buck season from reports in October).

The reason I ask about R5 closure, is the fact that it is causing some real issues now.
If it doesn't get re-opened, and help take away some the hunting pressure in those R3 M's, we might be
facing further restrictions or potentially closures in R3.

When you start having experienced long time hunters, Ranchers and the FN all saying the same thing,
then there certainly will be talks going on shortly I fear.

For my part, when having these one to one discussions, I ask everyone to be patient and see what comes
from the Southern MD Study.
We are seeing that Cougar are doing their part for sure.
And we need to know all the factors before we start saying, restrict this or close that!
Its great that this study is collaring Doe and yearlings, as I would like to understand why we aren't really
seeing an increase in MD# over time.
Only lacking point I see is that there aren't any mature MD being collared, as to see what is their fate.
Yes, Doe are still getting pregnant at a high rate, but by who and what age????
So, it still wont have all the answers.
And whether something comes from it, who knows, I ain't holding my breath.

Certainly there is some poaching element going on.
I have seen small bucks lying dead with only their antlers cut off.
Doe left to rot (and they weren't lost)
Some other incidents as well, so it is happening.
And no one really knows where the FN #'s fall into it all.
I have had conversations with some band members, and some say they have taken 1 or 2, while others
report they have taken 4 in a season and one individual proudly stating he took 20 in one season.
What to think, who to believe?.

So, I ask, what is going on with R5 and may we see it reopened at some point?
It could take the ever increasing pressure off of some of the R3 MU's, imo.
I am trying to not hit the Panic Button here.
But I am conveyancing that there is a lot of talk starting to develop, and solutions differ depending on which
group you are talking to, but all of them are saying something needs to change ASAP.

I am saying something is going to change soon, because too many are starting to talk.
The talk always include restriction or closure.
That's concerning, so, that is my heads up to all.


YOU ALWAYS COMPLAIN ALWAYS...Was good hunting this year..your mileage maybe not so much ever....

[Rob Chipman]

I know of guys who are concerned enough about muleys that they've stopped hunting them, and I can certainly agree that there are areas that dependably held deer that currently seem completely or substantially deer-free.

There are lots of possible causes.

- lots of logging, meaning lots more roads and lots more open areas where deer can be seen;
-lots of logging meaning substantial habitat alteration;
- more hunters;
- longer range equipment so people can shoot longer over more open clear cuts and kill more deer;
- more predators the take advantage of more open areas and roads;
- unlicensed hunters that, in prior years, had to get licenses or get nailed as poachers, but who can now hunt legally without a license (and all I'm saying is that hunter numbers aren't accurately counted);


We can add more *possible* explanations/questions to that list. The real question is: what's the answer and what's the solution?

The answer is more funding and more science. Without that we won't know, pure and simple.

SIMDeer did collar fawns but I haven't seen the survival rates yet. That's important because (iirc) we had high pregnancy rates and high doe survival. That *should* mean more deer unless the fawns don't make it to breeding doe age *or* unless predators (including 2 legged ones) are killing too many.

My understanding is that regs are changed at a regional level, and the changes are not necessarily in harmony with regional and provincial goals. That probably needs to change as well.

Bottom line: we have a lot of species in trouble and, based on the action we take, collectively as a province, we're totally fine with them going the way of the dodo. That needs to change.

[Bugle M In]

YOU ALWAYS COMPLAIN ALWAYS...Was good hunting this year..your mileage maybe not so much ever....
Firstly, i have no idea where you are coming from.
The mileage thing, even more confusing (you haven't had a stroke lately have you??)

Is it a complaint.....I don't know maybe.
My concern is that there are now several groups, FN, Cattle guys, and resident hunters complaining.
The FN are talkin full out closures on rotation amongst themselves right now that they most certainly will take to the Ministry.
Sure, they want closures, after all, it does not apply to them.
If it did, they would drop it hat and ask for for further restrictions, again, because it wouldn't apply to them.
And if it did, well, they will just do what they want anyways without fear of prosecution.
The Cattleman (which i guess might be you???) are involved because there certainly has been issues with hunters on
grazing land and destroying it in the past with quads and atv and the local dirt bike clubs.
So, in that regard, i know why they are now involved now.
And the problem behind it is, all the extra hunters that have now hit the area.
Years ago, hunters showed up less in #'s and they didn't use quads, so the nearby ranches tolerated it quite well, and all
got along.
But, its the whole bunch of new hunters hitting the area that is causing the issues and concerns.
I wasn't complaining, only stating what is occurring right now and how different the changes are.

And as for the Long time hunters of the area, they are concerned about the lack of mature bucks, the amount of traffic that
has showed up, and they are talking about Restrictions to rectify it.
And as i said, it sounds like these folk want to see the "any buck" season removed.

What concerns me more, is that the Ministry goes to the "close it for 10 days also" scenario.
I could care less about the any buck, but i am not against it either.

In which case, it means more area closed during that time frame.
That means hunters being pushed elsewhere again, so on and so forth.

I am only communicating to folks that care on HBC as to what is going on in a few of the MU's and what might be coming.
Not sure what the complaints are in that.
But carry on, you points definitely contribute to making things better for RH in BC.

[boxhitch]

Points that have come up in discussions-

- In the big picture, the hunters foot print is pretty small, there will always be escapement. Small areas get most of the pressure but in reality most of the ground goes untouched

-wildlife cannot be stock-piled. Holding capacity is what it is. Increase numbers may only lead to increase winter kill......may. Quality of habitat is just as important as quantity

-Antler restrictions are the safety valve, licensed hunters never kill all the breeding stock

- regulating for quality instead of opportunity will only discourage hunters, without hunters there is no value to wildlife, with out value there is no interest in management

[boxhitch]

"The FN are talkin full out closures on rotation amongst themselves right now that they most certainly will take to the Ministry.
Sure, they want closures, after all, it does not apply to them.
If it did, they would drop it hat and ask for for further restrictions, again, because it wouldn't apply to them.
And if it did, well, they will just do what they want anyways without fear of prosecution."

circulus in probando

[Bugle M In]

I know of guys who are concerned enough about muleys that they've stopped hunting them, and I can certainly agree that there are areas that dependably held deer that currently seem completely or substantially deer-free.

There are lots of possible causes.

- lots of logging, meaning lots more roads and lots more open areas where deer can be seen;
-lots of logging meaning substantial habitat alteration;
- more hunters;
- longer range equipment so people can shoot longer over more open clear cuts and kill more deer;
- more predators the take advantage of more open areas and roads;
- unlicensed hunters that, in prior years, had to get licenses or get nailed as poachers, but who can now hunt legally without a license (and all I'm saying is that hunter numbers aren't accurately counted);


We can add more *possible* explanations/questions to that list. The real question is: what's the answer and what's the solution?

The answer is more funding and more science. Without that we won't know, pure and simple.

SIMDeer did collar fawns but I haven't seen the survival rates yet. That's important because (iirc) we had high pregnancy rates and high doe survival. That *should* mean more deer unless the fawns don't make it to breeding doe age *or* unless predators (including 2 legged ones) are killing too many.

My understanding is that regs are changed at a regional level, and the changes are not necessarily in harmony with regional and provincial goals. That probably needs to change as well.

Bottom line: we have a lot of species in trouble and, based on the action we take, collectively as a province, we're totally fine with them going the way of the dodo. That needs to change.
Yes.
Part of the reason for the long OP was to try to inform that there are many of reasons to the issues we are seeing.
We would need a short novel to go threw that.
I tried to convey to the FN individual i was talking to exactly that, that there are possibly many reasons for the lack of deer.
Like I said, the two issues I do agree with the other groups is that there certainly are too many hunters in the area.
And that there certainly is a lack of mature bucks.

Some of the other peoples thoughts were that FB/IG has contributed to the big influx of hunters over the past 10 years or so.
I am sure there is truth to that, but also saw it noticeably right after R5 closed.
And, when i see new groups of hunters i never recognized before, i would most often stop and chat.
And every time, especially early on after R5 closed, they all stated that they would normally be in R5.
And that some were starting their hunts with the first few days in R3 until R5 opened again.
OR, that some where finishing their hunts in R3 because R5 closed.
Everyone has to remember, that the Remembrance Day week is big on the list for many to take time off.
And it generally means MD hunting.
And if you are from the LM, and you book a week off, it is the one time where you go a little farther than just a normal 2 day
weekend (basically why Princeton, Merritt are hot spots on regular 2 day weekends for LMrs)

As for the MD study, i know most of us are hoping to get more answers.
What comes of it, i am not overly optimistic about however.
I have tried to tell the FN individual as well as some of the hunters that...wait for the study.
For me it will answer why i see so many mature doe with yearlings, year after year, but not seeing any growth in pops in there.
And it does appear now to be trending downward.
The mature buck trend has been like that for some time now.

But, that still doesn't have much to do with all the added traffic into the area.
And this is an area I hunted for 40 years now, and the other parties as well.
Fires or not, it started before then.

My only opinion on higher numbers of hunters is due to them not thinking it thru when they closed R5 and what would all those
displaced hunters do.
If you cant hunt in your yard, you try and hunt as close as possible to it.
I think that is what has happened.

And now, many groups are starting to talk about adding further closures or restrictions.
That's not a complaint, that's just what i am seeing/hearing starting to develop.
Just a messenger with a few of my own thoughts to boot!

[f350ps]

Tons of huge MD bucks posted on the Facebook HuntingBC page, more than I’ve seen in years! Just cuz you’re not seeing them or you’re not seeing them on here I don’t believe is a real reflection of what’s happening! K

[Bugle M In]

Tons of huge MD bucks posted on the Facebook HuntingBC page, more than I’ve seen in years! Just cuz you’re not seeing them or you’re not seeing them on here I don’t believe is a real reflection of what’s happening! K
Okay, fair enough, I have seen them too.
But, are they coming from these MU's?
And if so, would it make you happy to hear the FN want full out closures (or at least rotational ones in these MU's).
These other groups of hunters are not new to the game.
They hunt hard, they hunt weekly some of them.
Some, half in age of me who have grew up there and some work around there.
They know all the little cubby holes and do break their asses to get into those spots.
The fact is, they just arent seeing them.
And its not about Tanks.
Its about not seeing many bucks that are past the age of 3.

Also, does it make you happy that some of these hunters are also now talking more and more about having the Any Buck
season removed? (again, doesn't matter to me as i only hunt 4pt areas anyways).

[Bugle M In]

Points that have come up in discussions-

- In the big picture, the hunters foot print is pretty small, there will always be escapement. Small areas get most of the pressure but in reality most of the ground goes untouched

-wildlife cannot be stock-piled. Holding capacity is what it is. Increase numbers may only lead to increase winter kill......may. Quality of habitat is just as important as quantity

-Antler restrictions are the safety valve, licensed hunters never kill all the breeding stock

- regulating for quality instead of opportunity will only discourage hunters, without hunters there is no value to wildlife, with out value there is no interest in management

Boxhitch,

What you are saying is basically bang on to what i have been trying to tell these other groups that want either closures or
further restrictions when i talk to them face to face.
The only other thing I have tried to tell them is that these fires will have some short term impact and maybe the missing deer
just moved elsewhere for now.
Example, the elk were brought up that roam the area, and now they are suddenly gone elsewhere.
I told them of course they are, there was a big fire so they moved for now.

The big impact to me has been the number of hunters everyone else is seeing.
And that for some, that is the reasoning that there are no longer mature bucks to be seen.
That too many hunters are now taking way too many young bucks.

I am not the one saying that.
I agree that there has been a huge increase in hunters in the area.
I think R5 caused that, but many others think it is FB/IG. (maybe its both)
And yes, i would agree, there does seem to be a shortage of the older bucks now being spotted for a few years now.
And for years, I always seen Doe with yearlings, plenty of them, so it was never a concern.
ITs only been the last year or 2 that the area seems a little light on them as well.
But then again, i also have argued to these same folks we no longer get the snow, so it is possible that many of the deer
just arent in the area as they would be if there was snow.

Trust me guys, i have tried hard to make some of these folks try to understand that their closure and restrictions wont be
the answer.
As for the huge influx of hunter #'s, all i can conclude is it all started when R5 closed.

So, in the end, are these other groups wanting closures or removal of part of the season to reduce hunters which they think
in turn will bring back deer.
In other words, again we are to blame for being hunters.
And, would it not make sense to open up R5 once again, as that fits in the time frame that many feel it got so busy?????

[wos]

In my opinion. Habitat fragmentation within mule deer migration routes is probably the species biggest enemy. Plus an ever growing predator problem that we are experiencing. I do agree a more homogeneous season across regions to spread hunters out could definitely help. But the focus needs to be on habitat. Not hunters if we want to see the population thrive.

[warnniklz]

https://bcwf.bc.ca/spring-2021-update-about-the-southern-interior-mule-deer-project/

Check out whom the mule deer specialist is...
And note the first 15 weeks cause

Although they immediately somewhat dismiss it

[Bugle M In]

The OP was to inform some hunters that hunt these MU's to be aware that there will be some new signage up thru the
Cattlemans Assoc saying "No Hunting", so be prepared.
And honestly, its been the dumbasses making trails with their quads for a long time on grazing land that started that.
It was fine until then, but that has been an issue for years until the ATV Ban came into affect.
But, now with the increase in hunter #'s, it has also added fuel to the fire.
So, now we got signs!

The FN Bands are saying there is a sharp decrease in deer, and they are not just happy with the MV closure, but are wanting to
see full out closures, and citing that it is due to not enough deer in the area and too many hunter #'s.
And in my opinion, the Ranches in the nearby areas would be happy with a full on closure, as it would eliminate of the
asshats that concern them, so the FN proposal would benefit them also.

As for Hunters, there are some starting to say that the Any Buck Season should be stopped, because of too many hunters and
thus the reason for the lack of mature bucks being seen any longer and that the high hunter numbers is taking a toll and that
too many young bucks are being taken.
And to validate that rationale, stating that most of the bucks now aren't much older than 3 years of age.
(i would agree only with the fact that many of the deer are young and most that hit the dirt arent that old)

I am just trying to inform folks that there are RUMBLINGS happening, and its coming from several user groups.
All with their own idea as to what the solution is.
I am just hoping that no one group is able to whisper their thoughts into Ministry action!
I am hoping that there is a "collaborative" effort in figuring out, what's going on and what to do, IF, anything is done at all.

For me, I am waiting for the SI MD study to give some answers.
That Study is a bigger deal then many might be thinking, because some groups seem to already have a solution, and I don't like
them! (so maybe there is my complaint?)

My only thought is, and thus the title for the OP, is if the huge increase in Hunter #'s relates to R5 being closed and just
word of mouth has developed to such a point now over time, with the addition of FB/IG, that so many consider this the best
option to hunt while R5 is closed?
AND, would it not help these MU's that are being pressured hard to have R5 reopen to relieve some of the pressure??

Otherwise, these RUMBLINGS and looking for further restrictions are going to get louder.
And no, its not about not getting a buck and complaining.
I got mine this season and could have taken bucks virtually every year since I have hunted it (4 decades now)
That's not the issue, but I agree with all the groups, that it is different now or for right now.

The biggest concern I have, is not the ANY BUCK being removed (and I have always supported having the season) but could happen?
It probably wont be a full out closure, but that would be a big blow and FN have a bigger voice then ever before with NDP.
The one with the most potential, after the any buck removal, is a 10 day closure just like R5. (maybe in these MU's only?)
If the Rumblings get bigger!

Then I and many others will be "moving to an MU near you"!
IT will all depend who has the loudest and voice, who is listening and what, if anything happens.

[Aaron600]

You got guys like Sky Edge on youtube posting all his spots. In some vids he even mentions specific spots. Your not a celebrity hunter. Knock it off.

[twoSevenO]

You got guys like Sky Edge on youtube posting all his spots. In some vids he even mentions specific spots. Your not a celebrity hunter. Knock it off.

Dudes like him are hilarious. He spends hours filming and putting together videos, while giving away a lot of his location, and all for a very mediocre amount of views.

What's even the point? Dude has like 1500 subscribers and he could probably be a way better hunter if he stopped fiddling with selfie sticks in the bush and focused more on actually hunting.

Instagram and YouTube are great for motivating you to get out, but people need to knock it off with trying to make hunting a job.
And I really don't get what these people are trying to gain with videos and full panorama backgrounds that they can't convey through pictures instead.

[Aaron600]

Agreed! People start guessing the specific MU's in the comments and he's like "yup that's the one or/close to that one..."

[twoSevenO]

Points that have come up in discussions-

- In the big picture, the hunters foot print is pretty small, there will always be escapement. Small areas get most of the pressure but in reality most of the ground goes untouched

-wildlife cannot be stock-piled. Holding capacity is what it is. Increase numbers may only lead to increase winter kill......may. Quality of habitat is just as important as quantity

-Antler restrictions are the safety valve, licensed hunters never kill all the breeding stock

- regulating for quality instead of opportunity will only discourage hunters, without hunters there is no value to wildlife, with out value there is no interest in management


I agree that hunter footprint isn't the issue, especially in BC. There is just way too much land and most of it doesn't even get seen by hunters.

However, I don't know that I agree on the regulating for quality point. Is that exactly what they do in the USA? Most states offer open seasons, but I don't think any are as generous as BC. The more sought after areas with bug bucks are incredibly tough to draw but produce amazing trophy deer, and they have no shortage of hunters lining up for a chance at one.

Maybe I'm out of my element, but I'd rather shoot a 180+" buck every 5 years than be able to shoot 3 unremarkable bucks every year. Wouldn't you?

BC holds some amazing bucks and genetics for it are there .... but there just aren't enough of them out there like there could be.

USA states have a lot more hunters and pour obscene amounts of money into it compared to BC.

[Elkaholic]

https://bcwf.bc.ca/spring-2021-update-about-the-southern-interior-mule-deer-project/

Check out whom the mule deer specialist is...
And note the first 15 weeks cause

Although they immediately somewhat dismiss it


This gets me as well. They know that bears clean up in the spring, they also have fully admitted they do not have a clue how many black bears are out there. They will not admit how many grizz are out there either, they do run counts and from what I was told it is disgusting out there. Bears just love fawning/calving grounds and our bio's have never taken the time to factor them into the equation. Cougars are always going to be the biggest predator to mule deer just like Lynx will be to rabbits/hares, its their bread and butter for food. But maybe if we have more surviving the bear gauntlet in the spring that could help out as well.

[JoeSixPack]

Everyone wants a big buck, but they can't pass up the medium bucks. You can't shoot a big one if you shoot an average one. If you want a big one, hunt for a big one. This is gonna mean you eat your tag some years. They're out there, always have been, always will be. It comes down to whether or not you are willing to put the time in and work for one.

[Bugle M In]

https://bcwf.bc.ca/spring-2021-update-about-the-southern-interior-mule-deer-project/

Check out whom the mule deer specialist is...
And note the first 15 weeks cause

Although they immediately somewhat dismiss it

Yup, Cougars, Bears and Landscape Alteration certainly top the list.
Ironic the wolves weren't on the top isn't it.

Let me add something else I recently heard, but it would be nice if anyone from the study can confirm this fact, so take it
as "What I recently heard", not a fact.

I was told that recently that 12 Fawns were (Maybe Doe as well) were collared not too long ago, and that only 2 of the 12
have survived.
No idea of the causes (but if the study is correct so far, then its more of the usual suspects).
And again, this wasn't a direct conversation, but a thru word of mouth and I think from one of the ranch hands???

[Rob Chipman]

From that report:

"However, overwinter fawn survival differs by region and significantly by year...."

I think that's the key info we're looking for and I expect we'll see some of it soon (varying significantly by year indicates that the longer the timeline the more we'll know, always remembering that time is in short supply). There is currently a fair amount of talk about what *seems* to be occurring (as in "I was recently told....") and I think that leads most of us to the same place: what are the straight goods on this? How many fawns, especially female fawns, are surviving to reproductive age? I expect we'll see that info fairly soon based on who's doing the research and how many of us are anxiously awaiting it like Bugle indicates - change it from "what I heard" into "fact")

[Bugle M In]

Everyone wants a big buck, but they can't pass up the medium bucks. You can't shoot a big one if you shoot an average one. If you want a big one, hunt for a big one. This is gonna mean you eat your tag some years. They're out there, always have been, always will be. It comes down to whether or not you are willing to put the time in and work for one.
Yes, you are totally correct.
And I have tried my hardest not to squeeze the trigger on a great many bucks over the years.
In part because I always felt that maybe just hike a little further and that big one might be there waiting, as for years
there was always hope for that to happen.
Passing up 150 -160 bucks did happen, but certainly anything smaller was passed up on for sure!!
There were times where a smaller buck was taken, but that would happen because someone really wanted some meat or
pepperoni in the freezer, but most of us were more than happy to eat tag soup in order to have a crack at the buck being
bigger the next.
And it used to work...for a time.
And only once did one from our group take a Doe, and that was because it was his sons first legal time to to hunt.
Only 1 in 40 plus years!

But I will be honest, i certainly lowered my standards this season.
Just too damn busy in there for starters now.
Also some other stuff I will leave out.
And the fact that I basically saw 2 of the smallest 4pts taken the day before by what I considered experienced hunters that
I know can do better than that and are some of the folks feeling the crankers are all gone.
I finally walked in to the woods the next day and decided that if i spotted the buck from the day before, that i would take him.
He more than likely would have been hanging in one of the other camps anyways, so why not mine.

It is certainly becoming a "if I cant beat them, might as well join them", which I know isn't helping but i attribute it to the
overcrowding that has developed (for me anyways).
And honestly, its not just me.
I recall Dana used to originally say many people just didn't know hoe to hunt big MD.
Then near the end, he was definitely pointing fingers at wolves for a lack of deer.
But right at the end before he left, he also stated that "everyone was shooting young deer" and its hard to get big ones
if you do that.
Not going to argue his thoughts, but just refresshing his views over time.
But i borught up his name becasue i what i saw in some of his last posts.
And that was photos of his family with success (which i am totally happy for him and the family, fyi!!!!)
But, i did question him on why would he allow his family to take younger deer (and honestly, there are way more smaller deer
taken every year by most hunters, but i would have considered these deer quite small/young by "Dana Standards")

Basically he replied as i felt this season.
That it had gotten to the same point as me...cant beat them, join them.

And i have to say, that is another sad trend that is developing by experienced hunters.
It used to be very easy to let bucks walk.
But now, its becoming hard to carry that on.
Just seems like there aren't enough people out there practicing that, or, maybe the area is seeing decline and there just
aren't enough bucks in that area to practice it????

All I know is what my eyes see.
And the bucks that are taken are pretty damn small now, or at least for now.

[Bugle M In]

One other little side note that might be an interesting development and might also explain why the Cattlemans Assoc has been
so involved as of late.
Seems there is a small group of folks who are collecting some sort of samples from all over the place.
Not sure what they are collecting??

But, word has it that they are trying to create a "new Park"???
I have no idea what kind of park, but my logic would say Provincial?? (what other kind of park could it be???)
And, if a park was created, it sounds like it would encapsulate some, if not all of the grazing land.

So, does that mean it that were to happen, would the Lease the rancher holds be terminated????
Thought is that some of the new signage is to keep those individuals out.
Seems like this exploration is has been going on for a couple of seasons now.

Again, its another little event that is taking place right now and not sure where that will end up and any further implications
as well.
Certainly no lack of talk up in that neck of the woods these days.

[Huntingtyler123]

We are like wolves, going into an area (region) on easy access roads and hunting animals. More of us in an area equals more kills. To me it seems it is what it is. What are we going to do about it? There should be zero open season for any doe/cow (female) animal. That’s simple.

[twoSevenO]

We are like wolves, going into an area (region) on easy access roads and hunting animals. More of us in an area equals more kills. To me it seems it is what it is. What are we going to do about it? There should be zero open season for any doe/cow (female) animal. That’s simple.

agreed - And people are hunting more and more off the beaten path nowdays. Everyone is into the backcountry style of hunting now it seems.
Agree on the doe/cow draws as well ... i do not support that one bit. I'd rather pay twice as much for my deer tag if it meant no doe tags were allocated, if they are doing it from the generating of revenue point of view.

[Livewire322]

Could be that the price of beef/pork/chicken is driving more folks to hunt for their meat (although they’d have to be pretty bad at economics to think that pans out…)

Personally, I hunt to eat, not for a size or age class. That means the first legal big-game I see is taken - bear, deer, moose, or otherwise - maybe I’d be more picky if there were more animals, but in the world we’re in now, legality is the threshold. I guess that puts me into the “can’t beat em, might as well join em” camp.

I will say that I saw more game sign this year than in years past, it just took getting off the beaten path to find it. It also took more of a commitment than I’ve ever put in - around 15 days of hunting time between the last weekend of September and Remembrance Day. I’d typically get 5 in past years.
Of course, the game that were once abundant in those some areas are being killed or pushed elsewhere.

It’s one thing for people to be seeing less game in the accessible areas and another thing entirely for there to be led game overall…

The fact that the province doesn’t manage the game herd more effectively here is a true shame. I’d happily pay more for a deer tag if it meant more money to management of the herd for hunting opportunities - sadly we aren’t even a blip on the radar of any of the provincial political parties and so we stand no chance.

[warnniklz]

- more bucks than does = more competition between bucks (spend calories fighting, death by fighting)

- more does than bucks = longer rut period = fawn dropping happens over a longer period of time = easier for predators to clean up
(this would be like if we stormed the beaches one landing craft at a time, wouldn't work so well compared to dropping everyone off at once)

- lower deer population = less competition over resources = less deer but healthier deer (a large pizza between 12 people is a lot different over a large pizza between 2)

- not all antlerless deer are does. Some are juvenile bucks

- someone who shoots first legal animal every year (usually a spiker or two point) takes pressure off the big guys

- someone who holds out for a monster doesn't kill an animal every year

- lots of focus on moose and deer just to hit the meat grinder... and less focus on bears

- If every buck was 180+... the 180+ wouldn't be so special

[Wagonmaster]

My group did a combination moose/mule deer hunt for one week every October in the same spot in Region 5 for probably 20 years in a row. We picked this spot more or less at random after many years going further north into Region 7. The first morning we drove up a logging road, came around the corner and saw seven deer, three of which were bucks. We had pretty good success every year...two or three deer and one or two moose every year between six or seven guys. Then one year, around 2015 I'd say, things changed drastically. Almost no deer or moose tracks but tons of wolf sign including vocals. Skunked that year and haven't been back (partly due to lack of enthusiasm by some of the group, I must admit...getting too old, I suppose). Anyway, a round about way to say that I believe, in our particular case, predation was the culprit.

[Bugle M In]

I would say where i hunt, the access isn't that easy, as you have to put some effort in to hike a few hours first.
But, its not like i need a pack horse either and a 3 day ride in.

Also, there is a big difference between hunting bucks on Sept 1 compared to Dec 1.
Deer etc can spread out pretty good, and inhabit a lot of territory early in the season.
But, come Winter, the game does "compress" into much smaller territory.
(Traditional winter ranges and it isn't hard to find that on google anymore)
And as I said, especially when we have heavy snow years, but, that has been far from the case for quite sometime now.
So, it isn't always easy to gauge any longer what is really going on.
Shed hunters sure haven't helped either....lol (as that was a good gauge to see what did eventually show up).

But I did state that there is now a fair amount of hunting traffic now and there is no bs in that statement.
That part has nothing to do with the study.
Question is why?

[Bugle M In]

agreed - And people are hunting more and more off the beaten path nowdays. Everyone is into the backcountry style of hunting now it seems.
Agree on the doe/cow draws as well ... i do not support that one bit. I'd rather pay twice as much for my deer tag if it meant no doe tags were allocated, if they are doing it from the generating of revenue point of view.

I don't know if I agree wit the cancelling of doe/cow.
Certainly if a population tanks, then yes, to help it recover.
Example, a bad winter kill that we have no control of.
But, if a population is slowly decreasing, then I believe the "causes" to that have to be figured out, and then see what
route to go (still might include a doe closure for a time, but certainly not permanently if they do recover)
There is too many studies on that that confirm that you need a proportional amount of all as Warnniklz describes.

And the only time a see a point restriction really help create big antlered game (genetics permitting) is when you have a
point restriction and a full on LEH hunt to limit hunters.
I am not prepared to sit at home for several years and hope i get drawn.
Besides, out leh system might mean some win yearly and some could sit at home for the next 20 years.
Certainly not a way to create hunter recruitment and if we dont, its as good as saying good bye to the hunting heritage in
short order if the province actually only had a handful of hunters anymore.
(ie, look at the gun laws and would some of these new bills become passed if over 50% of Canadians owned guns?)

What I will fully agree with is, todays hunter is certainly getting out of their vehicles more.
They are hiking in.
And they have become certainly more efficient!
Example, I was looking up an elk study from the past, and i was amazed that virtually every bull that was tagged,
did hit the dirt by hunters, not preds.

We are certainly more efficient, but I am fairly certain we are not the main cause of declines.
However, as in my OP, if an area does become over saturated by hunters, can it effect the area, its numbers and its quality?
I am starting to think it certainly can.
Sort of why I asked if R5 will open again to open up some room for hunters to expand, not crowd up and actually create an
impact!!

I will say it one more time, did they consider the impacts to surrounding MU's in R3 when they closed R5.
Did they ever consider that it could have a negative impact on some of these MU's?
I can certainly see why some groups do think that it has!

[Cyrus]

If you want to protect big bucks and ensure those genetics are being passed on shut deer down in every region starting Nov 1. How many would be on board for that? Personally I dont think the reg5 closure has anything to do with what's going on in other regions. I live on the border of 5 and 3.

[horshur]

Firstly, i have no idea where you are coming from.
The mileage thing, even more confusing (you haven't had a stroke lately have you??)

Is it a complaint.....I don't know maybe.
My concern is that there are now several groups, FN, Cattle guys, and resident hunters complaining.
The FN are talkin full out closures on rotation amongst themselves right now that they most certainly will take to the Ministry.
Sure, they want closures, after all, it does not apply to them.
If it did, they would drop it hat and ask for for further restrictions, again, because it wouldn't apply to them.
And if it did, well, they will just do what they want anyways without fear of prosecution.
The Cattleman (which i guess might be you???) are involved because there certainly has been issues with hunters on
grazing land and destroying it in the past with quads and atv and the local dirt bike clubs.
So, in that regard, i know why they are now involved now.
And the problem behind it is, all the extra hunters that have now hit the area.
Years ago, hunters showed up less in #'s and they didn't use quads, so the nearby ranches tolerated it quite well, and all
got along.
But, its the whole bunch of new hunters hitting the area that is causing the issues and concerns.
I wasn't complaining, only stating what is occurring right now and how different the changes are.

And as for the Long time hunters of the area, they are concerned about the lack of mature bucks, the amount of traffic that
has showed up, and they are talking about Restrictions to rectify it.
And as i said, it sounds like these folk want to see the "any buck" season removed.

What concerns me more, is that the Ministry goes to the "close it for 10 days also" scenario.
I could care less about the any buck, but i am not against it either.

In which case, it means more area closed during that time frame.
That means hunters being pushed elsewhere again, so on and so forth.

I am only communicating to folks that care on HBC as to what is going on in a few of the MU's and what might be coming.
Not sure what the complaints are in that.
But carry on, you points definitely contribute to making things better for RH in BC.

it is one mule deer limit for province..used to be three if you got a doe draw and moved regions. Regulations are fine. There is always a thread at the end of the season for those who did not fulfull there dreams and how it is someone elses fault. Watched this for almost twenty years now and they were bitching back then when Mule deer numbers were much stronger. It has nothing to do with seasons it has been said so many times so many ways. Regulation change may appease your delusion that things have not changed but they have. The change was well on its way when the hunting was so good only a few years ago.

[upperleftcoaster]

Just some context questions:

when did the closure in R5 start?
what was the reasoning behind closing the season during the rut?

[srupp]

hmm watching this slow motion train wreck here for decades...lots of holes in the bucket to drain the resources..
too many roads everwhere here..access is virtually unlimited..and most rd systems back onto the next with less than 3 kms between them..
nothing has been done to deal with predators..
4 legged ones..wolves..cougars..bears..both black and grizzly..numbers are literally exploding..with no balls by government to deal with this issue..too many Miley Cyrus wanna be..predators both 4 legged and 2 legged use these vast openings..and line of site that allow spotting of game and then rapidly closing the distances..
these rds even when closed doesnt affect indians..there literally is no longer safe refuges for game animals
the indian population does not know how to hunt predators..nor are they willing to learn nor even try.
having the vast R5 region specled with rez is certainly not helping..hunting anything 24..7..365..a year..places that dont hold rez..ie Cariboo mts has access rds and cheap fuel doesnt help
having 70 dollar steaks makes some think hunting is inexpensive access to protein..ya sure..places i never would expect hunters im seeing 8 9 10 camps....
COVID has influenced many if they cant go to Hawaii...go to Horsefly hunting..out of the house...
there are lots of pressures on our game numbers..these pressures from ALL SOURCES have only increased and have bit by bit taken a bite out of numbers of big game numbers...all the above issues must be addressed..ALLof them..
the fires have also displaced where game can currently survive..
10 years ago it would not be unreasonable to see 50 deer in 1` day at this time of year...
yesdterday seen 13 camps of hunters..thousands of hecta.of burned forest and only a couple of sets of tracks in the recent snow..

lots of tire tracks going into every track/trail..opening..
actually never even seen a grouse..hmm just a strangly cut up moose..no nose no tongue..lots of wasted meat on the bones feeding ravens/crows/BIG EAGLES.
no one willing to make the tough calls...
steven

[Bugle M In]

If you want to protect big bucks and ensure those genetics are being passed on shut deer down in every region starting Nov 1. How many would be on board for that? Personally I dont think the reg5 closure has anything to do with what's going on in other regions. I live on the border of 5 and 3.
Its not so much that R5 is causing problems for "all" other Regions.
That was never a concern. (from my point of view)
It was that the R5 would cause issue for some of the MU's bordering it that belong to other Regions.
And for the most part a few R3 MU's.
And the effects would be hunters over saturating these MU's due to the closer.
And most of the hunters i am speaking about are the folks from the LM/Island.
Nov 10 thru 20th with Remembrance Day is a big event for many hunters that pursue Deer, as the holiday affords them extra
days to hunt, compared to the normal 2 day weekend.
It used to allow then the extra time to travel further than they would on a weekend outing.
And most folks I know around here that hunt that week, either hunted R3 and many did run up to R5
(certainly others went to R8, but R3/R5 would swallow up the majority for that particular week, imo)
And there are some that live in R5 on the south side that had to now wander into R3 if they wanted to hunt MD.
Its fairly obvious right from the onset of the R5 closure how much more traffic showed up the first year.
And its only increased, and last season was surely a sight to behold with guys thinking they were hiking to get away from
everybody only to run into everyone from the camps up top (really was a sausage party!!) just couldn't believe it.
(and I am not taking 1 hill, but probably 7 or 8)

As for closing all the other Regions for 10 days, it wouldn't affect me, as i can go later or earlier.
But just because you leave the bucks alone for 10 days, doesn't mean you grow bigger bucks.
Bigger bucks are created if they are given at least 6 years or more to mature, given they have the right nutrition and they
had the genetics to begin with.
The genetics are there the day they are born, it doesn't need 8 years to be passed on in the sperm.

The question should be, how do we convince more folks to let young bucks mature?
Can we convince folks that the hunt is more important than the result?
That not cutting a tag does not mean you are a piss poor hunter!
That cutting a tag doesn't make you superior either.
And we also have to accept that some want meat in the freezer, and could care less about the Antlers in the end.

FYI, the buck I posted in the "As They Lay" thread (which is no cranker anyways), well, the antlers are now the latest edition
to my dog's chew toys!
Fresh antlers are way tastier it seems for my dog, than those the antlers the bucks have shed last spring!

[Bugle M In]

hmm watching this slow motion train wreck here for decades...lots of holes in the bucket to drain the resources..
too many roads everwhere here..access is virtually unlimited..and most rd systems back onto the next with less than 3 kms between them..
nothing has been done to deal with predators..
4 legged ones..wolves..cougars..bears..both black and grizzly..numbers are literally exploding..with no balls by government to deal with this issue..too many Miley Cyrus wanna be..predators both 4 legged and 2 legged use these vast openings..and line of site that allow spotting of game and then rapidly closing the distances..
these rds even when closed doesnt affect indians..there literally is no longer safe refuges for game animals
the indian population does not know how to hunt predators..nor are they willing to learn nor even try.
having the vast R5 region specled with rez is certainly not helping..hunting anything 24..7..365..a year..places that dont hold rez..ie Cariboo mts has access rds and cheap fuel doesnt help
having 70 dollar steaks makes some think hunting is inexpensive access to protein..ya sure..places i never would expect hunters im seeing 8 9 10 camps....
COVID has influenced many if they cant go to Hawaii...go to Horsefly hunting..out of the house...
there are lots of pressures on our game numbers..these pressures from ALL SOURCES have only increased and have bit by bit taken a bite out of numbers of big game numbers...all the above issues must be addressed..ALLof them..
the fires have also displaced where game can currently survive..
10 years ago it would not be unreasonable to see 50 deer in 1` day at this time of year...
yesdterday seen 13 camps of hunters..thousands of hecta.of burned forest and only a couple of sets of tracks in the recent snow..

lots of tire tracks going into every track/trail..opening..
actually never even seen a grouse..hmm just a strangly cut up moose..no nose no tongue..lots of wasted meat on the bones feeding ravens/crows/BIG EAGLES.
no one willing to make the tough calls...
steven
Yup, its certainly a hit or miss times.
I will say it is nice to see that some roads are starting to be ripped up, or blocked with huge logs etc.
And I certainly don't miss the ATV's etc that ripped new trails all over the place by leaving roads either.
Tons of tough decisions is certainly correct, but there is also a ton of money needed to make it work and also as well,
a collaborative effort by all in BC.

There are a ton of issues, but I cant help but always be drawn back to the logging over the past 30 years.
The main plateau in R3 around Kammy is basically logged to nothing anymore and roads like you say.
And the more it crept up to the winter range, the more I could see the changes in Ungulates.

Its also reminded me of Merritt.
There was some nice country to hunt in there, and decent bucks.
Then along cam the Coq and the Connector, and for a couple of years, the "altering of the landscape" because of their
creation, was really noticeable in a drop in MD sightings.
But, after a couple years, the Deer figured it out.
Then along came some logging, early onset of it, and man, there were deer everywhere to be had!
But, much of that area looks just like the plateau around Kammy now.
After a certain point, there were so many roads, so much cut away, you didn't run into deer like before.
The nail in the coffin that made us stop hunting there however, was FN running the roads and pit lamping.
Between those 2 issues, it was time to check out of there!

And that's only 2 factors of many.

[Cyrus]

I dropped down to Reg 3-30 during the reg5 closure. I hunted 4 days in two different areas. The first area I was the only one there...and what I mean by that is the only living thing around. It was basically a moonscape now with the devastation of the wildfires. I saw one track. The second location I knew would be busier and it still has a mix of burned and green area. While I saw some sign I also was surprised to see the amount of traffic down every side road that were clearly from poachers working the "night shift". Fresh snow the night before and every road already tracked out before daylight? Throw in a couple obvious kill sites as a result. I abandoned that area too as its tough to compete with poachers and yes it was very busy with hunters there.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Just some context questions:

when did the closure in R5 start?
what was the reasoning behind closing the season during the rut?

The region 5 rut closure happened about 10 plus years ago. It was the result of buck to doe ratios that were lower than the provincial target of 20/100 does. IIRC the ratio from their flights was 19.48/100. The regional manager at the time wasn’t exactly hunter friendly. There was also a problem with their flight counts as they weren’t conducted as they were in the past….but the Regional Manager shut down the rut anyhow…..and it has remained closed ever since.

As mentioned, if you want to increase your mature buck component, close the seasons on Oct 31.

SSS

[Bugle M In]

The region 5 rut closure happened about 10 plus years ago. It was the result of buck to doe ratios that were lower than the provincial target of 20/100 does. IIRC the ratio from their flights was 19.48/100. The regional manager at the time wasn’t exactly hunter friendly. There was also a problem with their flight counts as they weren’t conducted as they were in the past….but the Regional Manager shut down the rut anyhow…..and it has remained closed ever since.

As mentioned, if you want to increase your mature buck component, close the seasons on Oct 31.

SSS
^^^^^^^^^^^THIS!

The groups that were saying we need to get rid of the Any Buck Season, think that it was stop all the young bucks being taken,
it will stop all the traffic in October, and thus create more mature bucks overtime in November/Dec in years to come.

But I see far too often bucks in November, which is 4 point only by then, hit the ground and they are no more than 3 years old.
It wont lower the high influx of hunters.
If anything, it will just increase the hunters come Nov 10 when R5 closes because there will just be that many more hunters
with their tags not cut yet!
You are just setting it up for a few more bucks to hit the ground at a young age.
It wont make it better in terms of allowing bucks to age.

Closing off the season on Oct 1 is about the only way to ensure it as you say.

BUT!!!!!
I know most don't want that, and even I wouldn't either.
Just saying it is about the only way to ensure it, or go full on LEH.
That's what some of these groups fail to realize.

For me, I just don't like seeing an area get pounded because someone decided to shutdown R5.
The affects of that and the large influx of hunters taking an extra amount of young bucks than years past is starting
to show its effects.
Its not about the 180 sightings.
Its the fact that even a 160 sighting is getting rare.
And where a buck that makes 100 is now a giant!
That 1 4pt I saw, I doubt it scored 65!!! (in 4 pt season!, if it were any buck season, I would understand it better)

[twoSevenO]

Everyone wants a big buck, but they can't pass up the medium bucks. You can't shoot a big one if you shoot an average one. If you want a big one, hunt for a big one. This is gonna mean you eat your tag some years. They're out there, always have been, always will be. It comes down to whether or not you are willing to put the time in and work for one.

This is true. However, I think a lot of people are pretty discouraged. Even experienced hunters that I've been in touch with are just seeing so few deer in their usual hunting spots that holding off on a monster buck is almost impossible when you can't even get yourself to pass up 140s when you simply aren't seeing them around.
It's pretty dismal how few deer are in some areas that used to have big numbers.

Having said that, yes, there are still giant bucks out there. I've seen pics of some really big ones taken in BC this year including a really nice 190+ typical that I'm not allowed to share.

[xcaribooer]

I bought a place at Bridge lake this year and was excited this fall to go explore my "new back yard". I have to say I was quite disappointed after much cruising in 5-1 and 3-39 FSR's and saw ZERO deer. The only deer seen were the ones along hwy 24 that have figured out it is safest to live around private property.
I would be ok with drastic action like eliminating the any buck season for a few years and just have 4 pt only season.

[Bugle M In]

This is true. However, I think a lot of people are pretty discouraged. Even experienced hunters that I've been in touch with are just seeing so few deer in their usual hunting spots that holding off on a monster buck is almost impossible when you can't even get yourself to pass up 140s when you simply aren't seeing them around.
It's pretty dismal how few deer are in some areas that used to have big numbers.

Having said that, yes, there are still giant bucks out there. I've seen pics of some really big ones taken in BC this year including a really nice 190+ typical that I'm not allowed to share.
Certainly there are big bucks to be had and I don't mean to sound like there isn't.
Next season, even with dozens of hunters all over the hills, I could run into that big one when I least expect it.
But as you said, even the guys that passed up on 140's, to find at least a 160 and even then think twice, are giving up on
passing, like I did this season, and as I said, if I had passed him up, that buck would have been hanging in the camp beside me
as I do run into that crew in the same areas, and they wouldn't have passed on it.
And the reason they wouldn't pass it up is because they also feel discouraged at this point.

Before it got busy, which was about 10 years ago (so, when the R5 closure came into affect), if you saw that 140, you would
pass him up and felt pretty sure you had just given that buck a pass for the season, and wait for him to get bigger/older.
You would feel confident that he wouldn't be hanging from a tree or in the back of the box of another hunter.

But, its just so damn busy now, and I do see the small bucks that are being taken on a regular basis now, and it is hard to
"keep it up" so to speak, and passing bucks up will pay off.
Its just not happening any longer.

For years, most bucks at that time of season, were at the minimum, 150's that hunters would take.
Everyone that saw a smaller buck who tell themselves to hold off, "there is better around here".
And i suppose some of these same guys are there in October already, getting a feel for the upcoming rut, and they are seeing
tons of hunters, lots of new faces, and a lot of small bucks being taken.
One fellow told me he feels like there are twice as many young bucks being harvested in the any buck season now for the past
5-7 years then at any other time in the past.
And this is a fellow who is really passionate about the deer hunting there, lives close by and is in there often.
He knows more what happens on a week to week basis in there then I ever could.

Its hard to keep the "pass on the small buck" philosophy, when you feel like your the only one doing it and you surrounded by
way too many hunters now, and the coup de gras is, the passing it up is no longer paying off at all.

[Bugle M In]

I bought a place at Bridge lake this year and was excited this fall to go explore my "new back yard". I have to say I was quite disappointed after much cruising in 5-1 and 3-39 FSR's and saw ZERO deer. The only deer seen were the ones along hwy 24 that have figured out it is safest to live around private property.
I would be ok with drastic action like eliminating the any buck season for a few years and just have 4 pt only season.

I have always been a supporter for those that want to hunt the Any Buck Season.
And i still want to, as i think it is a necessary season.
But if someone tomorrow said, we need to make changes, so pick your poison, either LEH or remove the Any Buck Season.
I would have to go with get rid of the any buck season.
In part because i don't feel lucky when it comes to winning LEH.
And, I doubt they would hand out enough authorizations per season, and some think the wait would only be on average
3 years, but based on all the hunters, i think some could be waiting a minimum of 10 years!
They just don't realize it.

I know there are hunters out there during the Any Buck season, who are just trying to fill the freezer.
BUT, I am also starting to think that there are some out there during that season who just want the "I cut my tag" status.
They want to say "I got my deer" and add that "I get a deer every year"!

Maybe I shouldn't be judging, maybe its just the simple fact that word of mouth has spread, and the fact that there are so
many more hunters in the area, just means more bucks are hitting the dirt.
The only part I can be certain of, they are damn small now.
Very few folks now, when it comes to the 4 pt only season, are practicing the "gotta pass on the small ones".
And the proof is in the pudding, or should I say say, hanging from the meat poles!

I bet you all, Dana still hops onto hbc from time to time, lurking there, reading some of the threads.
Probably reading this thread and having a chuckle and saying to us all, "told you so".

[horshur]

Which part of "majority of Canadian Citizens are not OK with Trophy Hunting" do you not get? For now the majority can justify hunting for consumption so there is some support there.
You are on here basically complaining you cannot find a big buck. The province does not manage for Quality.The public will not be in support of it nor should they be so you won't get your 4 point only season but risk losing it. Losing it won't help deer numbers either. And why exactly do you need too shoot a bigger buck anyhow?

Val Giest said Mule deer where doomed. Are you really smarter then him?

[twoSevenO]

Which part of "majority of Canadian Citizens are not OK with Trophy Hunting" do you not get? For now the majority can justify hunting for consumption so there is some support there.
You are on here basically complaining you cannot find a big buck. The province does not manage for Quality.The public will not be in support of it nor should they be so you won't get your 4 point only season but risk losing it. Losing it won't help deer numbers either. And why exactly do you need too shoot a bigger buck anyhow?

Val Giest said Mule deer where doomed. Are you really smarter then him?

Chill out, man. Let's look at it another way: do you know a single hunter who is boasting about numbers of big bucks seen? I don't.
You make it seem as if he is complaining while everyone else is killing big bucks. And that's just not true.
Sure, big bucks are being taken, but significantly less than years past. let's not look at it as complaining but rather discussing the issue.

I seriously doubt the general population of non hunters even knows trophy hunting of deer is even a thing! If anything, following the grizzly ban, sheep and goats and cougars are next to be complained about ... not trophy mule deer.

[blacklab]

Which part of "majority of Canadian Citizens are not OK with Trophy Hunting" do you not get? For now the majority can justify hunting for consumption so there is some support there.
You are on here basically complaining you cannot find a big buck. The province does not manage for Quality.The public will not be in support of it nor should they be so you won't get your 4 point only season but risk losing it. Losing it won't help deer numbers either. And why exactly do you need too shoot a bigger buck

Val Giest said Mule deer where doomed. Are you really smarter then him?

A whole bunch of common sense right there.

[horshur]

Sorry but I don't think you are grasping the levity of the culture change. Our managers are not necessarily and more every retirement pro sport hunting of any kind, current "diversity" based hiring of government guarantees this trend to continue. The CO on Vancouver Island is just an example.
You are making an assumption that it is a naturally occurring phenomenon for surplus older class males to even exist in numbers that maintain a linear harvest. That is not how nature is.

I just can"t help but see the dichotomy. The sign of a healthy population is not top heavy older age class. You just saw what happens. Overnight they are gone.
You want to harvest at the top with the assumption that it is a closed system like a farm. It is not a closed system and it is a pyramid. Managing for high numbers of mature class inverts the pyramid. The population is not replacing itself they are using all the resources because there are too many at the top. What is remarkable is that it is hard to see happening because your Does are getting bred they have fawns every year it all looks good every fall but the Does are also getting old. Finally, you lose your older Does by attrition and surprise they never were replaced.

[twoSevenO]

I'm not saying you are wrong.... but I do understand people's frustration and disappointment when even finding a 140/150 buck is hard for a lot of people who used to pass them up all the time only a few years ago.

It is very clear that this province does not manage for quality. There is no doubt about that.

[elch jager]

While all this is interesting, soon enough it will not matter. In 5 to 10 years there will be no access to public land. Public land will no longer exist. Enjoy what you can now because 'freedom as service' is coming...


If you want to hunt, you will need to abandon your law abiding moral compass and become a poacher. And as Geist recounts in his stories growing up in Europe, poachers were shot on sight...

Have a listen to this podcast - a discussion between Whitney Webb and James Corbett as they break down the latest attempt to monopolize the world's natural resources and how this financial scam represents the next step along the path to the Great Reset, Agenda 2030 and the 4th Industrial Revolution.

https://www.corbettreport.com/interview-1676-whitney-webb-exposes-how-green-finance-is-monopolizing-the-planet/

Governments are right now bargaining away our natural resources to pay off their debt... this is real, and Trudeau is at the front of the line.

This Plandemic was designed to plunge all governments so far into debt that the only way out is to barter all their resources to Black Rock, Vanguard, et al.
If they slap a 'Green' or Climate Change' label on it, the lemmings will go along with it just like they rolled up their sleeve for their experimental jab.



This makes bitching about the size of the bucks we see a bit irrelevant.

[BlackOwL]

I know of guys who are concerned enough about muleys that they've stopped hunting them, and I can certainly agree that there are areas that dependably held deer that currently seem completely or substantially deer-free.

There are lots of possible causes.

- lots of logging, meaning lots more roads and lots more open areas where deer can be seen;
-lots of logging meaning substantial habitat alteration;
- more hunters;
- longer range equipment so people can shoot longer over more open clear cuts and kill more deer;
- more predators the take advantage of more open areas and roads;
- unlicensed hunters that, in prior years, had to get licenses or get nailed as poachers, but who can now hunt legally without a license (and all I'm saying is that hunter numbers aren't accurately counted);

We can add more *possible* explanations/questions to that list. The real question is: what's the answer and what's the solution?

The answer is more funding and more science. Without that we won't know, pure and simple.

SIMDeer did collar fawns but I haven't seen the survival rates yet. That's important because (iirc) we had high pregnancy rates and high doe survival. That *should* mean more deer unless the fawns don't make it to breeding doe age *or* unless predators (including 2 legged ones) are killing too many.

My understanding is that regs are changed at a regional level, and the changes are not necessarily in harmony with regional and provincial goals. That probably needs to change as well.

Bottom line: we have a lot of species in trouble and, based on the action we take, collectively as a province, we're totally fine with them going the way of the dodo. That needs to change.

Lets start by putting some action to tackle this,
We have more hunters but less enforcement. (and not only hunters but poachers as well need to be detected). Hence we need more CO's
more logging and loss of habitat but no interest from the Government to stop this attack in wildlife. A Scientific study must expose this to the public to put pressure in to the Government.
Open areas left by logging and cattle, leaving wildlife exposed in the open, this are two of the main issues we must deal with the MoE and the PM of BC.

In a past post, when I asked if we must put a cap in the acceptance of new hunters, I was blasted by a moron, and now the issue of hunters #'s is coming back to hunt us, (no pun intended) also the same moron blasted me for speaking against logging. is greed our major enemy and as hunters we should fight this.
The BCWF should document all this damage left by cattle and logging, video evidence with a scientific study will be My first choice.

[Livewire322]

Lets start by putting some action to tackle this,
We have more hunters but less enforcement. (and not only hunters but poachers as well need to be detected). Hence we need more CO's
more logging and loss of habitat but no interest from the Government to stop this attack in wildlife. A Scientific study must expose this to the public to put pressure in to the Government.
Open areas left by logging and cattle, leaving wildlife exposed in the open, this are two of the main issues we must deal with the MoE and the PM of BC.

In a past post, when I asked if we must put a cap in the acceptance of new hunters, I was blasted by a moron, and now the issue of hunters #'s is coming back to hunt us, (no pun intended) also the same moron blasted me for speaking against logging. is greed our major enemy and as hunters we should fight this.
The BCWF should document all this damage left by cattle and logging, video evidence with a scientific study will be My first choice.

We have a hard enough time engaging the powers that be with the numbers we have - restricting the number of hunters will only serve to handicap us further.
Fewer hunters will lead to fewer hunter dollars being funneled into management, even fewer COs, and a weakened voice when it comes to stopping anti-hunters.
Believe you me, there is no discussion on capping the number of people opposed to our hobby.

We should be having a serious conversation about the impact industry is having on habitat (from the perspective of how to balance economy and environment) and how to improve what habitat remains to promote the health of what herd remains.

[BlackOwL]

We have a hard enough time engaging the powers that be with the numbers we have - restricting the number of hunters will only serve to handicap us further.
Fewer hunters will lead to fewer hunter dollars being funneled into management, even fewer COs, and a weakened voice when it comes to stopping anti-hunters.
Believe you me, there is no discussion on capping the number of people opposed to our hobby.

We should be having a serious conversation about the impact industry is having on habitat (from the perspective of how to balance economy and environment) and how to improve what habitat remains to promote the health of what herd remains.

You just took a piece of my reply and didn't see the rest.

Cheers.

[Bugle M In]

Look, i will just summarize it this way.

Some regional manager decided to close an entire region, and either no one thought to think if adjoining R3 Mu's would suffer,
or if they did, that R5 manager didn't give a shit.
Its been 10 years since it closed, and it sounds to me like it didn't do all that much to make it better.
In other words, the issue (if there even was one and sounds like there wasn't) wasn't due to hunting.
But now, after 10 years, we do have an issue in some of these R3 MU's.
And now the R3 regional manager might have to deal with it somehow (if they don't get that clown in R5 to open it up).
Because I assure all of you, the R3 manager is probably getting lots of calls weekly from the local FN Bands to
"SHUT IT DOWN".

So, that ^^^^^^^^ is the big concern.

[Bugle M In]

As for the BIG BUCKS aspect.
This isn't about hillsides crawling with 200+ bucks in these MUs, or the lack off.
The truth is, there was from time to time, the odd 200+ buck taken over many years, which is what creates Legends about
some areas to hunt MD.
Example, the legendary Gang Ranch (get my drift).

Reality was, from time to time, you might spot a 180 class buck.
(and when i say spot, i mean maybe from 800 yards away thru spotting scope)
You felt like it was always possible that when you got up, it might happen, that you might get a trophy of a lifetime.

The Truth was, you could PASS UP 140 class bucks, because you knew if you hunted hard enough, long enough, and with
enough days in the pocket, you would find a 160 Classer.
(whether you got it or not, that's a whole different story!)

And the folks that hunted that area religiously, all knew that, all felt it.
So, you didn't see little 100 class or less 4pt bucks during a 4 point season hit the dirt.
But you do now!

And a 140 class buck is now a great day out!!!!

A healthy herd does not mean a hillside crawling with 200 class or even 180 class bucks.
But certainly 160 Class bucks should still be fairly normal.

You went out, and for every 10 deer you saw, 1 would be a buck.
1 in 4 of those bucks, would be a 4pt.
And of those 4 pts, 1 in 3 was a 160.
And you would see 40 deer or more a day it seemed.
The deer are still there, but lately there certainly has been a drop, might be lack of snow, might be fires or it is something else.
It will always have deer, and the day it doesn't, we then know we are in serious trouble!

[Bugle M In]

As for WHAT IS HAPPENING.

The FN, the Ranchers and long time Hunter, dont really know, thus the study is really important.
That study will have answers to questions i have been wondering about for the past 10 years, because i could not understand
how 4 out of 5 mature Doe could have 1 to 2 yearlings, group after group, year in and year out, and we weren't seeing an
increase in Populations.
So, either the habitat has really declined and cant hold more than it currently does, and historically it should hold more.
I am guessing no less than 15% more.
Instead, it looks like it is headed the other way, and its not just me saying this.

The only unfortunate thing about the SI MD Study, is that in the past and questions to what was happening with the Doe and
Fawn survival rates would have been all that was needed.
But, i now feel they should have collared some bucks.
I think there might be a need to figure out how old they are getting, and who is responsible for that if they aren't getting past
the age of 3, maybe 4.

The BIG ISSUE, will anything come from the study!!!!????????????????
Will or can anything be done??????
That part (will action happen) is scarier then actually the truth that comes from the study!!

[gcreek]

My group did a combination moose/mule deer hunt for one week every October in the same spot in Region 5 for probably 20 years in a row. We picked this spot more or less at random after many years going further north into Region 7. The first morning we drove up a logging road, came around the corner and saw seven deer, three of which were bucks. We had pretty good success every year...two or three deer and one or two moose every year between six or seven guys. Then one year, around 2015 I'd say, things changed drastically. Almost no deer or moose tracks but tons of wolf sign including vocals. Skunked that year and haven't been back (partly due to lack of enthusiasm by some of the group, I must admit...getting too old, I suppose). Anyway, a round about way to say that I believe, in our particular case, predation was the culprit.

And still, those who consider themselves “experts” will argue that wolves aren’t an issue.

[Livewire322]

You just took a piece of my reply and didn't see the rest.

Cheers.
So, you don’t think that we should explore a cap on new hunters?

We agree on the need for more enforcement, but the rest of your post was borderline incoherent with the exception of you calling somebody a moron for ‘blasting’ you because you suggested we should cap the number of new hunters.

Try learning to communicate in English - then come back and chirp me for focusing on a single point from your post.

[f350ps]

Hey great idea, cap the hunter numbers so we have less of a voice! Give yer head a shake! K

[Bugle M In]

NO, do not cap hunter #'s!!!!
My biggest point was to say we need to ensure hunters have enough room so as to not over crowd an area.
R5 was big area, an important area especially during the Nov10-20th, for many hunters, especially those form the LM.

If R5 wont open again, and some of these MU's continuously have high hunter traffic, then I suppose the only option
available is to remove the Any Buck from the season, BUT, just in those high traffic MU's that R5's closure effected, imo.

Judging by just how small the 4pt MD hunters are willing to harvest, they will more than make up for the any buck removal.
As stated by others, keeping small buck levels in check benefits the mature bucks.
If these MU's continue to see at least 3x as many hunters then 10 years ago, they will still harvest enough young deer.
That small 65 buck, he couldn't have been more than a year old.
He had the body, height and length of the yearlings I see.
His head (ears to nose length) was probably 30% smaller than my buck.
Honestly, I never have seen that before.... a buck that looked like he was a yearling, with a tiny little 4pt rack.
Most 2 pointers I see would have scored better than it.

So, don't cap hunters, that's the last thing we need.
Then cap what hunters can take.

[280 77]

gcreek hit the nail on the head , the turn down in ungulate population coincides directly with the wolf population explosion . Ten years ago there were still lots of hunters in region 3 and healthy moose and deer populations . Now there may be a few more hunters but the wolf numbers are way up , I see the tracks literally every day that I hunt once the snow hits the ground and I hunt a large area of region 3 . Until we focus on the real issue numbers will continue to dwindle.

[MichelD]

I was looking at what's his name's hunting posts on Youtube and noticed that quite few other B.C. hunters seem to have discovered the user friendly video cameras available these days and are making their own "Hey look at me" Youtube clips. Consequenlty they are stirring up interest from people who want to get started hunting too. I don't blame them, the videos (even though some admitedly record skunk trips) make everything look fun, easy and productive.

I was a newbie once too. We all start somewhere. I still haven't learned much after 52 years of buying licences but I'm either too stubborn or too dim to quit.

I don't know what the motive is, are they cruising for some sponsorship deals? Shockey wannabes? Trying to be helpful? Ego gratification?

I know one guy that has a species specific hunting web site and some videos on YT and he got sponsorship and free stuff from a hunting apparel company.

So all of the above is encouraging more people to get out there. With the technology available to folks these days like hunting apps, ubiquitous 4x4 trucks, quads, GPS, hand held radios and hunting sites, even though there are fewer hunters than back in the day, today's are better equipped and cover more ground than 1966 when Bill and Dave would drive up to Quesnel in their 2-wheel-drive pickup to go moose hunting.

[BlackOwL]

So, you don’t think that we should explore a cap on new hunters?

We agree on the need for more enforcement, but the rest of your post was borderline incoherent with the exception of you calling somebody a moron for ‘blasting’ you because you suggested we should cap the number of new hunters.

Try learning to communicate in English - then come back and chirp me for focusing on a single point from your post.

You just jumped on the stupidity wagon, you call me incoherent and with a delirium of greatness you accuse me of lack of English, how about idiots like you who don't know simple arithmetic? how many deer correspond to a certain number of hunters in one area? do you know the answer? I tell you what part of the ungulate population corresponds to you, that part is shit. if you don't understand this, in English and you are here just to blast people for a his personal views, you better do it in person, idiot! you think that because you speak English you are better? let's see idiot!

there are legal and illegal hunters like Rob Chipman said, among them there are poachers, some of you will argue that if we are more hunters this will be in our favour, the number of hunters have no effect to convince the government it works against us, is better a documented evidence with a scientific study of the areas affected by logging, cattle and hunting pressure (including legal and illegal hunters and poachers) this study when presented to the government will be of more weight than all your boyfriends together. we have to know what is the real cause in wildlife decline.

I had to explain in detail all this to you just because I see that you have limited understanding.

[Bugle M In]

I was looking at what's his name's hunting posts on Youtube and noticed that quite few other B.C. hunters seem to have discovered the user friendly video cameras available these days and are making their own "Hey look at me" Youtube clips. Consequenlty they are stirring up interest from people who want to get started hunting too. I don't blame them, the videos (even though some admitedly record skunk trips) make everything look fun, easy and productive.

I was a newbie once too. We all start somewhere. I still haven't learned much after 52 years of buying licences but I'm either too stubborn or too dim to quit.

I don't know what the motive is, are they cruising for some sponsorship deals? Shockey wannabes? Trying to be helpful? Ego gratification?

I know one guy that has a species specific hunting web site and some videos on YT and he got spnsorship and free stuff from a hunting apparel company.

So all of the above is encouraging more people to get out there. With the technology available to folks these days like hunting apps, ubiquitous 4x4 trucks, quads, GPS, hand held radios and hunting sites, even though there are fewer hunters than back in the day, today's are better equipped and cover more ground than 1966 when Bill and Dave would drive up to Quesnel in their 2-wheel-drive pickup to go moose hunting.
Your like me.
Once I heard from some hunters that a big reason the blame the big influx of hunters was FB/IG/Youtube, I had to go online
to see for myself.
Some vides you cant tell exactly the locations.
But then there are videos you certainly can identify to "look for" on you next outing.
I remember after the Kelowna Fire, and some hunters posting pics of the Tanks they took.
Some pics, you knew it was in the fire zone, but no idea exactly where and its a big big area.
But then the next guy posts a pic with the lake in background and building structures etc on the other side.

I know there is one fellow who does fishing shows, and does a great job, well filmed and edited.
But I know he gets criticized for "giving up too many locations".
And now those fishing holes are crowded.
I know he films at a lake I like going to, and he's filmed there more than once.
Last thing i need is for the camping to get busier...hard enough to get a campsite!!!!

Social Media certainly can have an impact.

[Bugle M In]

gcreek hit the nail on the head , the turn down in ungulate population coincides directly with the wolf population explosion . Ten years ago there were still lots of hunters in region 3 and healthy moose and deer populations . Now there may be a few more hunters but the wolf numbers are way up , I see the tracks literally every day that I hunt once the snow hits the ground and I hunt a large area of region 3 . Until we focus on the real issue numbers will continue to dwindle.

There is pack of wolves in the area, and yes, they never used to exist.
Dana was complaining that his favorite areas were getting trampled by wolves (just before leaving site) and that it was the
wolves causing the big issues.
At that time, we had wolves in our spot, but i wasn't seeing a decline, just not any growth, yet always plenty of yearlings in
November/Dec.
So, I had nothing to complain about, but i did say at the time, that 5 years from now I could be.
Found fresh wolf scat, close to where I think they have a Den, and certainly appeared to be deer hair in the scat.
BUT, I had a game cam up as well (nothing scientific here folks, just saying!), no feed, just an area i thought might see
deer "wintering activity".
I was right, had plenty of deer pics thru all the months into spring. (other creatures like wild horses and even sheep)
But, no wolves, and I really thought there would be, because i now they patrol right by this spot (they like to make big hunting
loops)
Might just mean I wasn't lucky to get any wolf pics, and they were there???
BUT, I did get something!!
Right around April and May, I got Cougar and Bear.

And that was it because the bear decided to rearrange my camera and didn't do a good job:smile:
The study seems to be leaning towards Cougar and Bear.
But then Again, "Scat doesn't Lie".

[Bugle M In]

gcreek hit the nail on the head , the turn down in ungulate population coincides directly with the wolf population explosion . Ten years ago there were still lots of hunters in region 3 and healthy moose and deer populations . Now there may be a few more hunters but the wolf numbers are way up , I see the tracks literally every day that I hunt once the snow hits the ground and I hunt a large area of region 3 . Until we focus on the real issue numbers will continue to dwindle.
Forgot to add though.
Wolves do not invite large numbers of hunters however.
They don't hang small bucks on the meat pole.
They don't only hunt larger antler bucks in the herd.

So, its more than just wolves in these MU's.....just saying.

[BlackOwL]

There is another undetected problem, Illegal guiding/Illegal outfitters.

[twoSevenO]

There is another undetected problem, Illegal guiding/Illegal outfitters.

There is illegal guiding for deer in BC??
Who would pay for that nowdays?

Look at any outfitters site ... even they don't have any big recent bucks to boast about. All the pics are from 10+ years ago.

[cameron0518]

Your like me.
Once I heard from some hunters that a big reason the blame the big influx of hunters was FB/IG/Youtube, I had to go online
to see for myself.
Some vides you cant tell exactly the locations.
But then there are videos you certainly can identify to "look for" on you next outing.
I remember after the Kelowna Fire, and some hunters posting pics of the Tanks they took.
Some pics, you knew it was in the fire zone, but no idea exactly where and its a big big area.
But then the next guy posts a pic with the lake in background and building structures etc on the other side.

I know there is one fellow who does fishing shows, and does a great job, well filmed and edited.
But I know he gets criticized for "giving up too many locations".
And now those fishing holes are crowded.
I know he films at a lake I like going to, and he's filmed there more than once.
Last thing i need is for the camping to get busier...hard enough to get a campsite!!!!

Social Media certainly can have an impact.

Absolutely it has had an impact. There is a reason guys are starting to learn and keep their mouths shut on where they are finding good hunting and lower crowds. It doesn't help when people want to help everyone on sites to get an animal. In theory, it is a nice gesture, but it has had a detrimental affect in those areas. Jelvis put the lower mainland into every decent area in Kamloops and now there has been someone posting areas all over region 5. Call me, call me, call me, call him, call him, call him. This is what I see time and time again. These people don't forget after they get their leh tagged out. They tell their buddies who then tell their buddies and the list goes on and on. The old timers don't understand how many people rely on social media. The days of looking in a mapbook to find an area are on the decline. It is much easier to look on social media. There are certain topics that get 1000-2000+ views regularly on here. People are looking for anywhere that holds animals and people still post and then brag on how they helped parties have successful hunts, over and over again. No doubt, these people are good guys but have no idea the impact of social media.

[Livewire322]

You just jumped on the stupidity wagon, you call me incoherent and with a delirium of greatness you accuse me of lack of English, how about idiots like you who don't know simple arithmetic? how many deer correspond to a certain number of hunters in one area? do you know the answer? I tell you what part of the ungulate population corresponds to you, that part is shit. if you don't understand this, in English and you are here just to blast people for a his personal views, you better do it in person, idiot! you think that because you speak English you are better? let's see idiot!

there are legal and illegal hunters like Rob Chipman said, among them there are poachers, some of you will argue that if we are more hunters this will be in our favour, the number of hunters have no effect to convince the government it works against us, is better a documented evidence with a scientific study of the areas affected by logging, cattle and hunting pressure (including legal and illegal hunters and poachers) this study when presented to the government will be of more weight than all your boyfriends together. we have to know what is the real cause in wildlife decline.

I had to explain in detail all this to you just because I see that you have limited understanding.

I may jump onto and off of the stupidity wagon from time to time, but, judging by your impressively poor command of the English language, you’ve been driving it for a long time.

If you think that a scientific study (commissioned by what group exactly?) will have any sway on the various levels of government, provincial or federal, you’re living in a state of delirium. The DFO didn’t listen when scientists (their own, I’ll add) warned of the impending extinction of the Thompson steelhead and of salmon stock declines. The NDP cancelled the grizzly hunt and cited that it ‘was no longer in vogue’ as their reason for doing so. And yet, you think that a scientific study, which would likely take a decade or more to complete and publish, will sway decision makers into action? Jeez, and you call me the idiot. A study may be part of the solution, but it is far from panacea. Politicians care about votes. The more hunters there are, the more votes our group will hold, and the more likely politicians are to listen when we speak.

I suggest you take a night-class on communicating in English - it might help you get what few good points you do have across.

[Bugle M In]

There is another undetected problem, Illegal guiding/Illegal outfitters.

Yup, I have suspected on the odd occasion seeing former Guides (twice) that used to work for an Outfitter show up with
what they said were friends, but i suspected they were previous clients.
The reason the guide would not risk getting in shit was because the territory was no longer owned by the Outfitter they worked
for.
The territory was owned by a new Outfitter, and thus the new outfitter wouldn't know they were former guides.
I know it certainly happens with salmon fishing on the west coast (just don't know if that is illegal?).

One of the complaints i was hearing from one of the long time hunting parties in the area we are hunting is gyus bringing
friends after they have already had success.
Example, in October, 2 guys tagged out on 2 MD during any buck.
Then they were spotted in the same area during 4pt only, with 2 more friends.
All 4 are packing rifles.
Sure they will say they have a WT tag (which you wont find in the vicinity they are hunting),
Bear, Moose tag or that wolves are open.
But more than likely they are all hunting because there are 2 tags still to be cut.
That's been going on for years, everywhere you go.
And legally, unless you catch the guy shooting the 2nd MD, he has not done anything wrong.

But, it is how friends invite friends and invite friends.
Again, nothing new.

Removing and Entire Region is a bigger issue, imo, as the other stuff has been like that for a long long time.

[Bugle M In]

Just to clear up a few things.
Hunters have been shooting game that is legal, regardless of size, forever.
If it is legal, most will harvest it, its what I call the international standard.
And I have no issue with that!!

It would be nice if more folks practiced "let it go, to let it grow", especially once you hit 4pt season, imo.
But, i have no right to say that is what people should do.
I am fine with them taking what is legal, as long as they did it legally and ethically.

The issue here is, that in my opinion, because R5 closed it doors, it brought in at minimum 3x as many hunters then it
did before.
So now you have 3x (if not more, as last year i would say 5x as more) practicing the "international standard".
After 10 years now, it is starting to show.
The Fires bring extra hunters always, so that never helps.
The Fires also move deer, so some of the low sightings might be due to this as well as lack of snow.

BUT, Its the local FN bands who are noticing the increased traffic and lower deer right now.
The Ranches note the lower deer, and the enormous increase in asshats hunting in there.
And the long timers hunting there have seen a huge increase in hunting pressure and drops in quality.

So, that's the 3 main players all saying the same thing.
FN want a full out closure until the burnt up landscape recovers at the very least and we can only hope that with those fires
the habitat will be way better for years to come afterwards?
The Ranches would certainly welcome the closure, or some sort of reduced season, so as not to have as many hunters causing
then grief.
And some hunters want to see the Any Buck removed.

The big reason from all parties is "the increased hunting pressure".
I don't know what pressure the R3 Regional manager is getting, but i can speculate it isn't good?
I blame R5 closure for starting it all.
Other newer factors are certainly now contributing to it.
A snowball/domino effect, and not for the good.

[Steeleco]

I feel so FESTIVE, another 3 day vacation on the house!!

[twoSevenO]

I feel so FESTIVE, another 3 day vacation on the house!!

Good call! Lol

[gcreek]

gcreek hit the nail on the head , the turn down in ungulate population coincides directly with the wolf population explosion . Ten years ago there were still lots of hunters in region 3 and healthy moose and deer populations . Now there may be a few more hunters but the wolf numbers are way up , I see the tracks literally every day that I hunt once the snow hits the ground and I hunt a large area of region 3 . Until we focus on the real issue numbers will continue to dwindle.

The wife just took out a wolf yesterday, one pack now at four and another pack of four is claiming ground at the other end of our place 9 km away. That equals two or three moose a week or the equivalent of.
Lays will be busy for a bit, we will pay them and everyone benefits and I will still be the a hole rancher.😊

[caddisguy]

I've only hunted in 5 a couple of times, but spent a lot of time out there, maybe a year of my life total camping, fishing and exploring around as my gfs family had a place out there.

I never could believe the amount of wolves, seeing them in broad daylight completely bold

And no matter where you stop the truck, there are wolf tracks everywhere and for every deer track there are a half a dozen wolf tracks on it.

You know it's bad when you're just road hunting for birds in the middle of the afternoon and see them all over the place, finding dead moose with only the hind legs chewed up, nothing coming back for it. Made me wonder how many moose killed by wolves in 5 actually get eaten by said wolves. Not the majestic creatures we hear about on Discovery or Nat Geo that waste nothing, that's for certain. They have a go at everything, if it goes down while they're in the area cool, but if it's too much effort, seems onto the next and moose and other dies of infection for the birds, bears and bugs. Similar to hunters who shoot at something "felt like a good shot but no blood" and spend maybe an hour tops.

Some mention social media being a pressure factor. I'm sure it is to a degree. I posted up a crayfishing video some years ago that went nuts for whatever reason and half the comments are "where is this exactly". Camping in general has become trendy and there does seem to be way more people out there with the sole purpose of taking selfies, partying with a good back drop and such, asking around to find new spots that still are prestine and not full of garbage. People who put the work in to find places certainly respect them more, in general anyway.

I do enjoy putting together videos to record the memories for myself and share with others. I don't worry about it too much here in R2 with BT hunting where there is virtually zero pressure in the timber. Inspiring others to BT hunt is a motive as they are a niche overlooked and underappreciated species that could use advocates due to habitat loss, whitetail invasion and wolf expansions in some areas.

But this thread is about R5. It's pretty open / easy / flattish terrain to begin with. Add a bunch more roads, burns, beetle kill, things sure do get easier for the wolves, masses of road hunters and "defacto legal" anything-goes hunters and harvests that cannot be accounted for in that area. Some guy posting BT clips in R2 is not a significant cause of the problems in 5 tho and new/more hunters aren't a bad thing.

[Livewire322]

I agree with what you folks have said regarding YouTube/Instagram hunters doing wonders to increase pressure on areas.

Heck, I’m guilty of doing a little detective work on some videos myself to determine location - and if I can do it, others can too.

I’ve been mentoring a group of four greenhorns this year, and hunting with three more new hunters that have held licenses for a few seasons without much success. All of them comb the web during the week to watch hunting videos, the shared group messages we have are full of big buck photos pulled from Instagram, and MeatEater is the secondary topic of discussion behind weekend plans to find their own bucks… It’d be an over generalization for me to say all young people fit that profile of looking to social media for inspiration/motivation, but it sure seems like those videos are a big motivation for the people in the 20-30 age group that are on the fence about, or just getting into hunting - they might even be the reason these guys finally got into it.
So, as much as I’d like people to stop ‘doin it for the gram’, I’d rather they keep posting and just do more to obscure their location (mirror images to throw off Google Earth sleuths, and keep tight lipped).

[dbergen69]

My questions 1) how much mortality is related to hunting? I think I read that it is only 5% of total mortality. If so reducing hunting has little impact 2) What is happening to winter range? This is the key limiting factor and we are losing lots to development.

[gcreek]

My questions 1) how much mortality is related to hunting? I think I read that it is only 5% of total mortality. If so reducing hunting has little impact 2) What is happening to winter range? This is the key limiting factor and we are losing lots to development.

I agree in some areas habitat is an issue. However there is still a huge portion of this province unchanged. The farms and ranches that once had hundreds of deer on fields in the spring and fall now have a few dozen. Our stack yards were once winter feed supplements to 200 moose. Last year we thought 15 at most. Predators and those who want to save them have increased exponentially. Not rocket science.
Our cow herd’s breed back rate suffers when they are constantly being harassed and no doubt wildlife has the same effect.

[Arctic Lake]

Livewire I’m not sure I understand how a person viewing a YouTube video of a persons hunting can tell where the video was shot . I guess if they post what MU they are hunting and show images of tell tale landmarks one could narrow it down . Arctic Lake
I agree with what you folks have said regarding YouTube/Instagram hunters doing wonders to increase pressure on areas.

Heck, I’m guilty of doing a little detective work on some videos myself to determine location - and if I can do it, others can too.

I’ve been mentoring a group of four greenhorns this year, and hunting with three more new hunters that have held licenses for a few seasons without much success. All of them comb the web during the week to watch hunting videos, the shared group messages we have are full of big buck photos pulled from Instagram, and MeatEater is the secondary topic of discussion behind weekend plans to find their own bucks… It’d be an over generalization for me to say all young people fit that profile of looking to social media for inspiration/motivation, but it sure seems like those videos are a big motivation for the people in the 20-30 age group that are on the fence about, or just getting into hunting - they might even be the reason these guys finally got into it.
So, as much as I’d like people to stop ‘doin it for the gram’, I’d rather they keep posting and just do more to obscure their location (mirror images to throw off Google Earth sleuths, and keep tight lipped).

[Livewire322]

Livewire I’m not sure I understand how a person viewing a YouTube video of a persons hunting can tell where the video was shot . I guess if they post what MU they are hunting and show images of tell tale landmarks one could narrow it down . Arctic Lake

I had one specific video in mind from last year. I won’t divulge the name of the YouTube channel so as to not drive more traffic that way, but I will share that based on the species being hunted, some B-roll footage of the landscape, secondary target species mentioned during the hunt, and a general understanding of the geography of the province, I was able to narrow down the location of the hunt. No MU posted. Just landmarks and other clues.

Some videos would be harder to suss out locations from, all I was saying is that some quasi-professional hunters could make life a little more difficult for gut-pile chasers by avoiding showing prominent landmarks, using some low level video editing to mirror footage, and keeping a little more tight lipped about certain details (secondary species in the area, time of year, etc.)

Here’s a fake example: the target species is mountain goat, the b-roll footage is of coast mountains but they have highway traffic on them, and the hunt footage is all high alpine. Maybe some other details come out over the course of the footage and it becomes apparent that it was a drive in, not boat or plane access, hunt. I’d say that narrows things down to Pemby, or Squampton. Maybe they also let slip it’s an LEH tag - bingo - Pemberton or area it is.

It’s shocking to see how much info people give up that they may not even realize and it leads right to the spot they were in. Of course, this is predominantly applicable to the guys trying to make a career out of hunting because they need to make the videos interesting.

[Bugle M In]

My questions 1) how much mortality is related to hunting? I think I read that it is only 5% of total mortality. If so reducing hunting has little impact 2) What is happening to winter range? This is the key limiting factor and we are losing lots to development.
Interesting Question!
I know for years we have been using a % based on studies I suppose.
Someone else can explain it that has way more knowledge on it, but i think most folks accept it a a standard they use to
factor in.

BUT, I am wondering "when was the last time we assessed" Hunter Success/Mortality?
Because the hunters today are not hunting like my Dad's generation did.
20 years ago I would say 70-80% of hunting traffic in the area was by vehicle, and they hunted virtually 100% from
their vehicles, except for maybe parking, going for a 1 hr stroll, and off they went again.
Now, its seems like 25% only drive around, and most 75%, drive to location, park and hunt for the day on foot.
So, hunters today don't hunt like years ago, and i am sure success is higher.
The only reason it doesn't look that way is because we have less game in general, imo!!??

Don't know when the last time they reviewed that?
Maybe they have?
And if so, I don't know if that % was ever adjusted?

[Bugle M In]

I've only hunted in 5 a couple of times, but spent a lot of time out there, maybe a year of my life total camping, fishing and exploring around as my gfs family had a place out there.

I never could believe the amount of wolves, seeing them in broad daylight completely bold

And no matter where you stop the truck, there are wolf tracks everywhere and for every deer track there are a half a dozen wolf tracks on it.

You know it's bad when you're just road hunting for birds in the middle of the afternoon and see them all over the place, finding dead moose with only the hind legs chewed up, nothing coming back for it. Made me wonder how many moose killed by wolves in 5 actually get eaten by said wolves. Not the majestic creatures we hear about on Discovery or Nat Geo that waste nothing, that's for certain. They have a go at everything, if it goes down while they're in the area cool, but if it's too much effort, seems onto the next and moose and other dies of infection for the birds, bears and bugs. Similar to hunters who shoot at something "felt like a good shot but no blood" and spend maybe an hour tops.

Some mention social media being a pressure factor. I'm sure it is to a degree. I posted up a crayfishing video some years ago that went nuts for whatever reason and half the comments are "where is this exactly". Camping in general has become trendy and there does seem to be way more people out there with the sole purpose of taking selfies, partying with a good back drop and such, asking around to find new spots that still are prestine and not full of garbage. People who put the work in to find places certainly respect them more, in general anyway.

I do enjoy putting together videos to record the memories for myself and share with others. I don't worry about it too much here in R2 with BT hunting where there is virtually zero pressure in the timber. Inspiring others to BT hunt is a motive as they are a niche overlooked and underappreciated species that could use advocates due to habitat loss, whitetail invasion and wolf expansions in some areas.

But this thread is about R5. It's pretty open / easy / flattish terrain to begin with. Add a bunch more roads, burns, beetle kill, things sure do get easier for the wolves, masses of road hunters and "defacto legal" anything-goes hunters and harvests that cannot be accounted for in that area. Some guy posting BT clips in R2 is not a significant cause of the problems in 5 tho and new/more hunters aren't a bad thing.
The stuff you have posted has never been an issue.
You cant tell anything from what i seen.
Your just sharing with other hunters what you are seeing and sharing some experience.
Dana shared a "how to burp and rake" video for MD hunting.
Again, you cant tell where he is.
People sharing stuff like that arent giving anything away.
They are just trying to help they should continue to do so..

[Bugle M In]

Livewire I’m not sure I understand how a person viewing a YouTube video of a persons hunting can tell where the video was shot . I guess if they post what MU they are hunting and show images of tell tale landmarks one could narrow it down . Arctic Lake
You may not know the area off hand.
But, once you see these videos, you know have a starting point.
Example, fresh burn.
Then, depending how much "panning out they do", you see the terrain.
Is there a river?, are they on top of the main plateau?, are they on the slopes leading to the main plateau?
Then you go for a drive.
Sometimes there were very distinguishing features in videos, other times not so much.
But, if you stumble into the area while searching, you suddenly go "hey, this is it"!!

Last season Sports Fishing on the Fly actually fished some lakes in the Cariboo Region.
This time they stooped naming the actual lakes.
They just called them lake #1, lake #2 etc.
Why, because their shows can have "too much" impact and people flocking to the lakes.

Some people do a very good job at hiding the area while still producing a good show.
Others don't hide anything.
The folks that dont hide anything, are trying to help people into the filmed activity if they have never done the activity or are
still novices to it.
I am fairly certain that one fellow who does fishing shows for in here BC gets a ton of complaints when he does some of
his shows, like Vedder Rvr Fishing etc.
After a new video comes out, you know it, because you go up to fish for the day and suddenly you cant find parking anymore.

Its great that some want to share, and its their right to do so.
But, they sometimes don't understand that the person out there in the field next to them, doesn't want it shared.

[Bugle M In]

I agree in some areas habitat is an issue. However there is still a huge portion of this province unchanged. The farms and ranches that once had hundreds of deer on fields in the spring and fall now have a few dozen. Our stack yards were once winter feed supplements to 200 moose. Last year we thought 15 at most. Predators and those who want to save them have increased exponentially. Not rocket science.
Our cow herd’s breed back rate suffers when they are constantly being harassed and no doubt wildlife has the same effect.
Talking to the one Cattle Rancher i the area, they said they are seeing less than half the MD at their hay now than say 8 years
ago.
I didn't ask about wolves and their issues, but i should have.
But, they were more concerned with all the hunters that have come out of nowhere.

I think my hunting partner had some cam pics of a pack of 4 wolves from this season.
So, they are around and certainly weren't 10 years ago.

But, again, another impact certainly is all the extra hunter harvests that have occurred, imo.
If you have hunted the area for years, it is very very obvoius how busy it has become.
Thats going to come with impacts.
That all happened because of one clown making a big decision in R5 that affected a lot of hunters province wide.

[Bugle M In]

ALSO, I only mentioned all the LM hunters that used to go to R5 but had change to these MU's when R5 closed for 10 days.
I SHOULD also mention that many R5 Residing Hunters had their season closed also!!!
SO, where do you think a good chunk of them ended up?
YUP, great decision making.

[MichelD]

Interesting Question!
I know for years we have been using a % based on studies I suppose.
Someone else can explain it that has way more knowledge on it, but i think most folks accept it a a standard they use to
factor in.

BUT, I am wondering "when was the last time we assessed" Hunter Success/Mortality?
Because the hunters today are not hunting like my Dad's generation did.
20 years ago I would say 70-80% of hunting traffic in the area was by vehicle, and they hunted virtually 100% from
their vehicles, except for maybe parking, going for a 1 hr stroll, and off they went again.
Now, its seems like 25% only drive around, and most 75%, drive to location, park and hunt for the day on foot.
So, hunters today don't hunt like years ago, and i am sure success is higher.
The only reason it doesn't look that way is because we have less game in general, imo!!??

Don't know when the last time they reviewed that?
Maybe they have?
And if so, I don't know if that % was ever adjusted?

I'm not arging or debating with you, but my observation in the areas that I have hunted is that most of the hunters I have seen over the years still mainly use their vehicles, be they truck or quads and more recently side by sides. I admit though, that I am cheap on gas and only usually go to a few select spots now and do not ramble and range all over the province like I used to. Park and hike as you describe.

But still, I have not run into another hunter off the road in the trees for years, but I've heard vehicle after vehicle drive by when I've been a couple hundred yards into the trees where the deer trails are.

[horshur]

I agree in some areas habitat is an issue. However there is still a huge portion of this province unchanged. The farms and ranches that once had hundreds of deer on fields in the spring and fall now have a few dozen. Our stack yards were once winter feed supplements to 200 moose. Last year we thought 15 at most. Predators and those who want to save them have increased exponentially. Not rocket science.
Our cow herd’s breed back rate suffers when they are constantly being harassed and no doubt wildlife has the same effect.

It will take 20-25 years to get back what was lost if they deal with the wolves...

[Bugle M In]

I'm not arging or debating with you, but my observation in the areas that I have hunted is that most of the hunters I have seen over the years still mainly use their vehicles, be they truck or quads and more recently side by sides. I admit though, that I am cheap on gas and only usually go to a few select spots now and do not ramble and range all over the province like I used to. Park and hike as you describe.

But still, I have not run into another hunter off the road in the trees for years, but I've heard vehicle after vehicle drive by when I've been a couple hundred yards into the trees where the deer trails are.
I know you are not arguing with me, and you experiences are yours, and I believe you.
I have heard others in previous years make statements, but at the same time, I wasn't finding similar experiences.
So, I totally accept your experiences and your post.

Qauds due to the local dirt bike clubs is what really pissed the rancher/s years ago.
Even this year we had to contact the local FN Band (they have patrols) to let them know a group of clowns were in the area
with their quads and dirt bikes, and its been years since the closure.
And some are still trying to climb hills off road, not only with their quads, but their Trackers.
It amazes me what lengths some hunters will go.
And it F's it for everyone else.

[Bugle M In]

MichelD,

As for running into hunters.
I hunted 30 of those years and maybe only 3 times in those years did i cross paths with another hunter.
Back then, all you heard were trucks driving and road hunting.
Exactly like you say.

But, the last 10 years, after the closure, it changed.
last year, i watched 3 different groups tackling a climb up a mtn and all were at different stages of the climb, and none knew the
others were above/below them.
At the same time, i saw hunters on several other hills and making their climbs.
That day, i ran into 2 separate pairs of hunters where i hunted.
And they were new to the entire area???

I think what happened is when R5 closed, a lot of experienced hunters that hunted elsewhere before the closure, came in.
And then word of mouth etc from there.

Example, look at the WK Elk and the many complaints we hear now.
When it was LEH, it limited the hunters obviously.
Also, because it was LEH, it also limited the "experience" of the hunters that won.
I am certain some won the tags and had very limited knowledge of the area/s or much elk hunting experience to begin with.
And there were those that won who knew where and how to hunt them.
So, a good mix of limited hunter #'s.

BUT, once it opened to GOS.
Well then, the best of the best of elk hunters in the province showed up, no longer limited by a permit.
And as we all have heard, it only took a couple of years for most of the tanks to fall.

Tells us things.
Too high a hunter # in an area leads to more game taken (it has to).
And hunters do know how to hunt better than ever before!

[Bugle M In]

It will take 20-25 years to get back what was lost if they deal with the wolves...
Yes, i would agree with that.
There is also some hypocrisy amongst hunters as well however. (and i am guilty of it as well)
We all show up to hunt MD/Elk/Moose, but most of us never show up to hunt Wolves or other Preds.
For me, its not easy to find the time to travel or come up with the cash for these trips that easy.
I assure you, if i lived an hour away, I would be there!!

I know the one group of long timers also probably spends 0 time hunting Preds in there.
But, the other group of young guys, who are more local, do pound the coyotes into the ground each year.
Not sure about their attempts on Wolves.

[MichelD]

MichelD,

As for running into hunters.
I hunted 30 of those years and maybe only 3 times in those years did i cross paths with another hunter.
Back then, all you heard were trucks driving and road hunting.
Exactly like you say.

But, the last 10 years, after the closure, it changed.
last year, i watched 3 different groups tackling a climb up a mtn and all were at different stages of the climb, and none knew the
others were above/below them.
At the same time, i saw hunters on several other hills and making their climbs.
That day, i ran into 2 separate pairs of hunters where i hunted.
And they were new to the entire area???

I think what happened is when R5 closed, a lot of experienced hunters that hunted elsewhere before the closure, came in.
And then word of mouth etc from there.

Example, look at the WK Elk and the many complaints we hear now.
When it was LEH, it limited the hunters obviously.
Also, because it was LEH, it also limited the "experience" of the hunters that won.
I am certain some won the tags and had very limited knowledge of the area/s or much elk hunting experience to begin with.
And there were those that won who knew where and how to hunt them.
So, a good mix of limited hunter #'s.

BUT, once it opened to GOS.
Well then, the best of the best of elk hunters in the province showed up, no longer limited by a permit.
And as we all have heard, it only took a couple of years for most of the tanks to fall.

Tells us things.
Too high a hunter # in an area leads to more game taken (it has to).
And hunters do know how to hunt better than ever before!

No argument from me about what you're saying.

[Bugle M In]

Brings up a question to the Ranchers for me.
As i stated, it sounds like there are new signs going up, so some hunters are going to be in for a huge surprise.
I don't know how it will turn out if i wanted to ask for permission, or for others, although i do know who to ask and we know a few
of their ranch hands.
(FYI, i haven't stepped foot on there in 30 years anyways, but its an area a lot of hunters do do!)

So, my question is (I guess to someone like Gcreek)
If hunters approached a Rancher, in the off season asking to help them with trying to whack some wolves etc, would more
Ranchers then consider offering those same hunters opportunity to hunt for other ungulates on their land when the time comes?
These days it sure seems to be hit or miss about getting permission and sounds like more are told no when asking then get
a yes.
Just wondering if that kind of approach would work and thus benefit both sides???

[horshur]

My questions 1) how much mortality is related to hunting? I think I read that it is only 5% of total mortality. If so reducing hunting has little impact 2) What is happening to winter range? This is the key limiting factor and we are losing lots to development.

Hunting as it stands should contribute to higher carrying capacity because it removes the surplus animals. It is supposed to emulate natural mortality. You can have higher surplus because they are removed before winter(GOS). We are however in what is called a predator pit. What seems to me to be a disconnect is that in a natural open system nature controls the population thru predation, starvation,disease, low fertility ect. There is no surplus! In order to have a surplus the mortalities need to be manipulated. Management in a word. There is plenty of current scientific articles that are observing that habitat enhancement and manipulation is not having the effect they predicted. Because the predators just camp on the goods. They may even contribute to higher numbers of predators because high rodent/small game recruitment in burns subsidizes canine/feline diet. Ungulates are choosing marginal habitats instead of running the gauntlet which leads to higher mortality anyway and so the circle goes round.

[Stillhunting]

With the 1 MD limit for the interior, all regions should align with region 3's season to spread out the pressure. Hunter's (unless they are concentrated in a small area) don't really impact the populations as much as other factors, so further restrictions won't achieve much. Typically, newer hunters aren't that successful, so a bunch of wannabes who watch YouTube videos aren't much of an issue either. Best we can do is to harvest preds and WTs.

[Bugle M In]

Hunting as it stands should contribute to higher carrying capacity because it removes the surplus animals. It is supposed to emulate natural mortality. You can have higher surplus because they are removed before winter(GOS). We are however in what is called a predator pit. What seems to me to be a disconnect is that in a natural open system nature controls the population thru predation, starvation,disease, low fertility ect. There is no surplus! In order to have a surplus the mortalities need to be manipulated. Management in a word. There is plenty of current scientific articles that are observing that habitat enhancement and manipulation is not having the effect they predicted. Because the predators just camp on the goods. They may even contribute to higher numbers of predators because high rodent/small game recruitment in burns subsidizes canine/feline diet. Ungulates are choosing marginal habitats instead of running the gauntlet which leads to higher mortality anyway and so the circle goes round.
Yes, I certainly seen WT picking areas they wouldn't normally be, and avoiding the areas they should be in, and most likely
is due to avoiding factors like wolves.
Fairly certain that is the general rule of thumb for most ungulates.
I think some reasons like elk for example in the EK, are staying in their Winter Ranges all summer long is due to avoiding
wolves, which isn't good for the winter Range as far a supplying feed for the following year, and the fact that traditional
summer range is 4x more nourishing then what they are now feeding on but maybe to afraid to walk the gauntlet.

And when they do, they get hammered.
Talk to a fellow who works daily in the area I hunt elk.
Told me they watched a small pack of wolves push 6 cow elk into a boxed canyon.
Day 1 after they got boxed in, there were only 5 standing.
A day later, 4 left standing.
Day after that, only 3.
Last sighting was only 2, and then nothing. (not sure if those 2 escaped, but everyone gets the picture)

Truly the best example of a Predator Pit......literally!

[Ambush]

Maybe someone can post a direct link to this study. It's US but still relevant.


https://www.themeateater.com/conservation/wildlife-management/study-shows-mountain-lions-have-unexpected-predator?fbclid=IwAR2A-GyA2RqEhVOiAW4fIE4UpjFlmLgMU3PkHNa0jHFCj3nTxiv8x3r _1bs

[Bugle M In]

Maybe someone can post a direct link to this study. It's US but still relevant.


https://www.themeateater.com/conservation/wildlife-management/study-shows-mountain-lions-have-unexpected-predator?fbclid=IwAR2A-GyA2RqEhVOiAW4fIE4UpjFlmLgMU3PkHNa0jHFCj3nTxiv8x3r _1bs
Our current study will also show how big a factor Cougar is.
I get why many, especially if you are a Rancher, will be concerned with wolves, and we all should be.
But the study does seem to be shedding a light on Cougars certainly.

Neither Wolf nor Cat contribute to some areas getting over saturated with hunters.
Closures do that!
And look at the result after this past summer.
Big MVC in some big areas now.
It will benefit some hunters certainly, but most will have to "crowd in" where they still can at least drive to a good spot hunt.
And we are certainly going to have more big fires, so i guess that means more and more MVC's coming.
So, it just adds to the problem now for the future, imo.
And the fact that MVC only applies to RH, not FN.

If we are going to have more big fires, we need a better plan.
Certainly an ATV/ORV closures are necessary in Fire Zones.
But rather than just shut it down, leave the main FSR open, but start getting in there with big machines and lets close
off all the inactive side/spur roads!
At least then, it limits "everyone"!
We are all in the same boat then!
Still leaves some opportunity for all.
But at the same time reduces the impacts of hunters.
We need to do that anyways, all over the province, regardless if its seen a fire or not.
And then limits everyone the same way, not just some.

[LBM]

Maybe someone can post a direct link to this study. It's US but still relevant.


https://www.themeateater.com/conservation/wildlife-management/study-shows-mountain-lions-have-unexpected-predator?fbclid=IwAR2A-GyA2RqEhVOiAW4fIE4UpjFlmLgMU3PkHNa0jHFCj3nTxiv8x3r _1bs

Been seeing this happen for years, cat numbers dropping. Another thing with the wolves is they will follow the cats taken there kills which in turn wears the cat down, leading to starvation, which in turn
may cause it to hunt other food sources. In some areas the cats are being just about wiped out, with humans being the number one reason for it but things like this are
definately a contributing factor.

[LBM]

Dont hunt region 5 or 3 so cant speak about it but some of the storys sound a bit dramatized for effect, but some of the region 4 stuff is for sure.

[LBM]

[QUOTE=Rob Chipman;2301131]From that report:

"However, overwinter fawn survival differs by region and significantly by year...."

I think that's the key info we're looking for and I expect we'll see some of it soon (varying significantly by year indicates that the longer the timeline the more we'll know, always remembering that time is in short supply). There is currently a fair amount of talk about what *seems* to be occurring (as in "I was recently told....") and I think that leads most of us to the same place: what are the straight goods on this? How many fawns, especially female fawns, are surviving to reproductive age? I expect we'll see that info fairly soon based on who's doing the research and how many of us are anxiously awaiting it like Bugle indicates - change it from "what I heard" into "fact")


thats one of the problems with studys, people think the end result is the same all over. Every region is different and many times areas with in a region have different causes, and then they can be flawed like for example lets have a open season
on whitetail does for a few years to drastically reduce the population then do a study on cats to see what they eat, almost like it what was part of the plan to get certain results. also with many of the studies its just following the beeps or points
from the collars not enough on the ground stuff to see what happens in betwee

[Bugle M In]

Been seeing this happen for years, cat numbers dropping. Another thing with the wolves is they will follow the cats taken there kills which in turn wears the cat down, leading to starvation, which in turn
may cause it to hunt other food sources. In some areas the cats are being just about wiped out, with humans being the number one reason for it but things like this are
definately a contributing factor.
Hmmm...
I mentioned that to my hunting partner when we found the wolf scat this last trip and saw that it was full of deer hair.
I said to him that I wondered if the wolves were actually killing the deer right now, as there isn't any snow (where they excel at)
right now, and if in fact they are "stealing it", or maybe just chowing down on a hunters kill?
But, again, the study "does vary".
Arrowstone certainly has more Cougar kill observed than the others areas.
As for the study, they are doing the best they can with what they have.

Want a great study, then i guess you have to collar not only Doe and young, but I guess some bucks as well as the Cougar/ Bear
and wolves in the area, to get a perfect picture?
I am sure there are plenty of willing participants that would put in the personal time to do so, but again, lack of money I gather.

We live in a Province where we restrict or close to deal with issues, but we never go after the real issues to make it better.
Same like salmon and steelhead.

[horshur]

Our current study will also show how big a factor Cougar is.
I get why many, especially if you are a Rancher, will be concerned with wolves, and we all should be.
But the study does seem to be shedding a light on Cougars certainly.

Neither Wolf nor Cat contribute to some areas getting over saturated with hunters.
Closures do that!
And look at the result after this past summer.
Big MVC in some big areas now.
It will benefit some hunters certainly, but most will have to "crowd in" where they still can at least drive to a good spot hunt.
And we are certainly going to have more big fires, so i guess that means more and more MVC's coming.
So, it just adds to the problem now for the future, imo.
And the fact that MVC only applies to RH, not FN.

If we are going to have more big fires, we need a better plan.
Certainly an ATV/ORV closures are necessary in Fire Zones.
But rather than just shut it down, leave the main FSR open, but start getting in there with big machines and lets close
off all the inactive side/spur roads!
At least then, it limits "everyone"!
We are all in the same boat then!
Still leaves some opportunity for all.
But at the same time reduces the impacts of hunters.
We need to do that anyways, all over the province, regardless if its seen a fire or not.
And then limits everyone the same way, not just some.


The habitat enhancement I refer too are Federal parks.....NO HUNTING. SAME OR WORSE DECLINES!!! Jasper and Banff

[gcreek]

Brings up a question to the Ranchers for me.
As i stated, it sounds like there are new signs going up, so some hunters are going to be in for a huge surprise.
I don't know how it will turn out if i wanted to ask for permission, or for others, although i do know who to ask and we know a few
of their ranch hands.
(FYI, i haven't stepped foot on there in 30 years anyways, but its an area a lot of hunters do do!)

So, my question is (I guess to someone like Gcreek)
If hunters approached a Rancher, in the off season asking to help them with trying to whack some wolves etc, would more
Ranchers then consider offering those same hunters opportunity to hunt for other ungulates on their land when the time comes?
These days it sure seems to be hit or miss about getting permission and sounds like more are told no when asking then get
a yes.
Just wondering if that kind of approach would work and thus benefit both sides???

To answer you truthfully, some might, we prefer to hire professionals that will remove the whole pack with traps.

I have heard too many hunters that passed up opportunities at wolves or coyotes because they thought it would compromise there hunt for deer or moose. This concerns me about the care some have for our ungulate numbers.

[boxhitch]

"I have heard too many hunters that passed up opportunities at wolves or coyotes because they thought it would compromise there hunt for deer or moose. This concerns me about the care some have for our ungulate numbers."

Ungulate numbers isn't the first foremost thought on the minds of that hunter. That hunter is more concerned about the care for the prey he kills
While its possible to whack a predator without missing a beat on an deer/elk trail, it's not for everyone

Agree with your point about having pros take care of a pred problem properly, there is a right and a wrong way, and doing things the wrong way can just exacerbate the problem
On the other hand having multiple hunters applying pressure to preds can sure mess up their hunting program, and possibly take out a breeder before they contribute in the spring
yin and yang

[Bugle M In]

To answer you truthfully, some might, we prefer to hire professionals that will remove the whole pack with traps.

I have heard too many hunters that passed up opportunities at wolves or coyotes because they thought it would compromise there hunt for deer or moose. This concerns me about the care some have for our ungulate numbers.
Okay, just curious.
I know many hunters think if they fire their rifle, everything leaves the valley.
Rifle Fire does not scare game away, or not far.
One time we took 2 bull elk 15 minutes apart, while gutting one the other popped out.

[Bugle M In]

"I have heard too many hunters that passed up opportunities at wolves or coyotes because they thought it would compromise there hunt for deer or moose. This concerns me about the care some have for our ungulate numbers."

Ungulate numbers isn't the first foremost thought on the minds of that hunter. That hunter is more concerned about the care for the prey he kills
While its possible to whack a predator without missing a beat on an deer/elk trail, it's not for everyone

Agree with your point about having pros take care of a pred problem properly, there is a right and a wrong way, and doing things the wrong way can just exacerbate the problem
On the other hand having multiple hunters applying pressure to preds can sure mess up their hunting program, and possibly take out a breeder before they contribute in the spring
yin and yang
Fair enough, didn't really consider that when I asked the question.
Funny though, we criticize about the fact we don't do our part in hunting preds and only pursue ungulates.
But then we criticize ourselves for doing it wrong.
I suppose that could be a new chapter in the Hunting CORE curriculum:tongue:

[Bugle M In]

Is it possible that a potential reason for the high Cougar kills is because the Wolves are stealing their kills, and thus the Cougar
is more often on the prowl to kill again?

Don't get me wrong here folks, we certainly have seen how wolves kill directly, but I am wondering if in some areas, like some
of these study areas, if there is a link to what i said above?

When I saw the latest study, I wasn't so surprised about the mortality due to Cougar, nor the Bears.
But, I was quite astonished at how low the wolf kill #'s were so far.
In the one study area, I know they have been active for about 10 years now, and they seem to always be around in November
when I am hunting, obviously following the deer.
But, I have yet to come across a kill by wolves to date up there.
I know Cougar do, as i had a pm recently of a fresh MD killed by Cougar (still warm), and my hunting partner came across a
cougar kill a couple years ago, and then there was that FB of that fellow near Kammy lk that took pics of that cougar killing a
doe right in front of his truck while filming the 6 doe just before the cougar struck, so we all know they do.

But, i am not there other than November and half of December at best, so i cant say what really goes on thru the year.
The Study so far shows wolf kill fairly low.

Again, not stating anything here, but just an observation, and I do cover a lot of ground when i am in there, on many hills.
Just surprised as to why the deer mortality due to wolf is so low in the study?

I think they have just recently started a Cougar study I believe in the same area as the MD study.

[bighornbob]

Is it possible that a potential reason for the high Cougar kills is because the Wolves are stealing their kills, and thus the Cougar
is more often on the prowl to kill again?

Don't get me wrong here folks, we certainly have seen how wolves kill directly, but I am wondering if in some areas, like some
of these study areas, if there is a link to what i said above?

When I saw the latest study, I wasn't so surprised about the mortality due to Cougar, nor the Bears.
But, I was quite astonished at how low the wolf kill #'s were so far.
In the one study area, I know they have been active for about 10 years now, and they seem to always be around in November
when I am hunting, obviously following the deer.
But, I have yet to come across a kill by wolves to date up there.
I know Cougar do, as i had a pm recently of a fresh MD killed by Cougar (still warm), and my hunting partner came across a
cougar kill a couple years ago, and then there was that FB of that fellow near Kammy lk that took pics of that cougar killing a
doe right in front of his truck while filming the 6 doe just before the cougar struck, so we all know they do.

But, i am not there other than November and half of December at best, so i cant say what really goes on thru the year.
The Study so far shows wolf kill fairly low.

Again, not stating anything here, but just an observation, and I do cover a lot of ground when i am in there, on many hills.
Just surprised as to why the deer mortality due to wolf is so low in the study?

I think they have just recently started a Cougar study I believe in the same area as the MD study.

I remember years ago a bio was talking at the wild sheep society meeting. he said they had a collar on a female cougar with kittens. In one week she killed like 5-7 sheep. People were shocked that a cougar needed to eat that much. The bio said she didnt, but the 50 or so coyotes that found the her and the kill would. He said the cougars may get a few mouth fulls then the coyotes woudl chase them off the kill. She basically had to kill daily to survive as the yotes chased her off and ate the deer.

So I assume coyotes may be doing the same now too. Just another nail in the coffin for the deer population.

BHB

[Rob Chipman]

Is it possible that a potential reason for the high Cougar kills is because the Wolves are stealing their kills, and thus the Cougar
is more often on the prowl to kill again?




That is absolutely possible. I'm not sure how common it is but I ran across that exact story recently from the states. A big tom was getting chased off his kills by, iircc, both wolves and a bear.

[Bugle M In]

That is absolutely possible. I'm not sure how common it is but I ran across that exact story recently from the states. A big tom was getting chased off his kills by, iircc, both wolves and a bear.
Might explain the difference in #'s, cat kills vs wolf and why the perplexing contrast.
As i said, the fresh wolf scat had deer hair in it.
But, there is no snow, and pretty open country (which a study say benefits ungulates, although i think its the reverse come
a heavy snowfall winter).
My cam showed basically no snow all winter thru spring and that past few were the same.
Not a benefit to wolves, imo to be successful in killing.

So, maybe some packs of wolves are just thieves but do force cats to do all the killing.
That might align/ make more sense, with the study #'s??????

Why not, Killer whale pods vary from pod to pod, as to what they eat, some salmon, the next seal and even some shark liver.
And some probably have adapted different ways to huntthe same prey.
Some wolf packs kill directly, and maybe some are just taking a kill over.

Might explain some of the wolf movement patterns i find in the snow.
They cut fresh deer tracks, but don't bother at all, no matter how many separate deer tracks they cross.
Its as if they move around the side of a mountain, to the downwind side, not appearing to look for scent on the ground,
but as if to see what scents are presenting themselves in the wind.
Maybe they are scouting for the scent of a fresh cat kill or hunter gut pile???

[LBM]

I remember years ago a bio was talking at the wild sheep society meeting. he said they had a collar on a female cougar with kittens. In one week she killed like 5-7 sheep. People were shocked that a cougar needed to eat that much. The bio said she didnt, but the 50 or so coyotes that found the her and the kill would. He said the cougars may get a few mouth fulls then the coyotes woudl chase them off the kill. She basically had to kill daily to survive as the yotes chased her off and ate the deer.

So I assume coyotes may be doing the same now too. Just another nail in the coffin for the deer population.



BHB
You mean nail in the coffin for the cat, for it will be the one blamed for it all. I have said it before most dont have a clue what goes on out there.
Have found were the cats and wolves have killed coyotes, and they are needed to keep them in check. In some areas the most mule deer kills
we find are yearlings and they are killed by coyotes.

[LBM]

That is absolutely possible. I'm not sure how common it is but I ran across that exact story recently from the states. A big tom was getting chased off his kills by, iircc, both wolves and a bear.

More common then most would think in some areas, and with the whitetail season on does in certain areas humans/hunters have caused a change in what the wolves and cats hunt as well.

[HappyJack]

Well, i am not sure what the Ministry will do.
I am only stating what i am hearing in discussions with the 3 groups i mentioned in the OP.

You bring up MVR.
That's another thing that could compound further issues in MU's like i am speaking of.
Yes, some hunters will enjoy the MVR areas and go out on foot.
But many will now seek alternative areas from what was once their traditional areas to hunt, especially around Nov 11 week.
We just had new MVR's put in place in may of those new fires areas this year.
And some will find that now too hard to access their honey holes.
Which means they also now get pushed into another area.
So again, possibly more hunters being squeezed into the same areas, further compounding the problem already occurring even
furthermore????
IMO

IF we could hunt spike fork moose in 5 that would keep some people out of 3, motor vehicle restrictions will just make more people hunt in the same easily accessible areas. Not all of us are young anymore, more guys would hunt MD in 5 if they took all the atv/orv restrictions off. There are a lot of goofy things in the regs that make people congregate in areas.

[f350ps]

IF we could hunt spike fork moose in 5 that would keep some people out of 3, motor vehicle restrictions will just make more people hunt in the same easily accessible areas. Not all of us are young anymore, more guys would hunt MD in 5 if they took all the atv/orv restrictions off. There are a lot of goofy things in the regs that make people congregate in areas.
FN’s won’t allow an Immy season in 5!! K

[Bugle M In]

I remember years ago a bio was talking at the wild sheep society meeting. he said they had a collar on a female cougar with kittens. In one week she killed like 5-7 sheep. People were shocked that a cougar needed to eat that much. The bio said she didnt, but the 50 or so coyotes that found the her and the kill would. He said the cougars may get a few mouth fulls then the coyotes woudl chase them off the kill. She basically had to kill daily to survive as the yotes chased her off and ate the deer.

So I assume coyotes may be doing the same now too. Just another nail in the coffin for the deer population.

BHB
Interesting.
As for the "nail in th coffin", not neccesarliy however.
If there is any truth to wolves stealing from cats and thus cats get the blame due to having to kill more often.
Then the issue then goes back to the wolves, not the cats.
Wolves as the big issue in many parts of BC, thus the bigger need for a proper cull.
Maybe the cats are thus inline with the right numbers, their population vs kills which might be acceptable.

Maybe it says that we cant have 2 super predators in the same territory hunting basically the same thing.
Sure there are Moose in there, but not enough to sustain wolves for very long.
Arrowstone for example is Cat Country, not wolf territory.

But again, there is a hunting factor due to R5 closure impacting some MU's.
Those that hunt in there for years, know that.
And, judging from some of the MD bucks taken in R5, doesn't look like R5 is suffering.
No more than any other Region!!!
Nothing so dramatic as the need to be closed while others are open, imo.

[upperleftcoaster]

Well I saw a nice 4pt posted on IG this weekend that was from region 5. Very identifiable background, but maybe only because I’ve been there before too.

In terms of predators there was a study done on the Yellowstone wolves. They ended up changing the elk herd habits which negatively affected the cougars. The elk used to hang out in timber and cover, good for a cougar to ambush them. With the wolves, they tended to stay in open plains more. Furthermore the wolves would kill cougar kittens and cougars. Not to eat, just to get rid of the competition.

A mortality study on mule deer would be very interesting, especially to figure out the compensatory predation levels. I’m sure there are a lot of factors.

I was in R5 last year and got my first mulie there. A 2pt in any buck, of which I’m glad for the opportunity. Lots of other camps, and all of them had deer hanging. I can imagine limiting the any buck season in R5 would be more productive than the closure during the rut.

My vote is to wait for a study to find out more, and equalize the seasons between R3/R5 but given the grizzly bear situation I doubt it even matters for regulation making.

[Cyrus]

I saw 51 bucks last year in reg 5 this year 7. Including a very big 4x4 on the second to last day that winded us. I was hoping he'd be dumb but he was alone. Gonna haunt me until next year....I attribute the lack of animals to drought conditions all summer and fall, too warm, too windy. Weather just killed the hunting this year. Plus 7 and 30k winds today...didnt bother. First year since 2005 one of us didn't put something in the freezer. Considering we can't even buy meat in the store right now its a bad year to get skunked...

[BlackOwL]

I agree with what you folks have said regarding YouTube/Instagram hunters doing wonders to increase pressure on areas.

Heck, I’m guilty of doing a little detective work on some videos myself to determine location - and if I can do it, others can too.

I’ve been mentoring a group of four greenhorns this year, and hunting with three more new hunters that have held licenses for a few seasons without much success. All of them comb the web during the week to watch hunting videos, the shared group messages we have are full of big buck photos pulled from Instagram, and MeatEater is the secondary topic of discussion behind weekend plans to find their own bucks… It’d be an over generalization for me to say all young people fit that profile of looking to social media for inspiration/motivation, but it sure seems like those videos are a big motivation for the people in the 20-30 age group that are on the fence about, or just getting into hunting - they might even be the reason these guys finally got into it.
So, as much as I’d like people to stop ‘doin it for the gram’, I’d rather they keep posting and just do more to obscure their location (mirror images to throw off Google Earth sleuths, and keep tight lipped).

I would expect more from someone mentoring new hunters, It sounds like illegal guiding, you and your friends have reduced yourselves to the level of opportunistic parasites, losing all self respect as true and ethical hunters would have, because a true hunter develops his hunting plan exploring for himself where to hunt, you lost all notion of what is like to be a true hunter, you are cybernetic gut pile hunters. go home boy and learn yourself some self respect.

[boxhitch]

If thats an attempt at humour or sarcasm, you missed
Foghorn even does better

[srupp]

I would expect more from someone mentoring new hunters, It sounds like illegal guiding, you and your friends have reduced yourselves to the level of opportunistic parasites, losing all self respect as true and ethical hunters would have, because a true hunter develops his hunting plan exploring for himself where to hunt, you lost all notion of what is like to be a true hunter, you are cybernetic gut pile hunters. go home boy and learn yourself some self respect.

hmm no thats not correct...no one gets there alone..everyone has had help along the road that leads to success..
IMO true hunters mentor share help...
you speak so harshly..i just dont believe you...nor your views.i have had hundreds of folks help shape my hunting..fishing..outdoors help...and never ever feel bad helping others new to this sport...self respect..means doing what you can to help others new to the sport..
hmm helping others is now reduced to opportunistic parasites..losing ones self respect...
your views sound self serving and perhaps selfish..
Srupp

[Livewire322]

I would expect more from someone mentoring new hunters, It sounds like illegal guiding, you and your friends have reduced yourselves to the level of opportunistic parasites, losing all self respect as true and ethical hunters would have, because a true hunter develops his hunting plan exploring for himself where to hunt, you lost all notion of what is like to be a true hunter, you are cybernetic gut pile hunters. go home boy and learn yourself some self respect.

Awww, I see your timeout did nothing to curb your temper. It seems that you didn’t take the free time you gained to improve your communication skills.

Have you anything productive to contribute to this conversation? Perhaps a note about observed predators or signs of predators in the field, increased hunter presence in areas adjacent to closed region 5 management units, etc…?
Owls are supposed to be wise, so surely you must have something to add.

[HappyJack]

FN’s won’t allow an Immy season in 5!! K

Since when do they determine the seasons? I'd be more inclined to believe the outfitters won't support it regardless of race.

[Bugle M In]

As for mentors and youtube etc,
Its a good thing that people are taking the time to help others learn or get involved in whatever passion they are supplying.
Fish with Rod is an example of someone trying to show people what it takes to fish in BC, be it lake/river or ocean.
When you want to try something new, but don't know where to start, what you need and no one to ask, then it certainly is a
life line to get info.

The underlying issue isn't youtube, its that there is so many people getting into activities, and there is such limited space
or resource now.
Restricted where you can fish, or restricted to when and what you you can catch.
Its those limiting factors we are facing even in hunting, that is the real problem.

Certainly giving away areas to hunt thru landscape or mentioning a lake or river, makes it worse at times.
My dad used to hunt the Bull Rvr, and there were hunters, mostly locals, but it was limited in the amount of folks hunting in there.
Then an article came out (might have been in the BCWF magazine back in the day or other?), with a full write up on this persons
adventure hunting the Bull rvr, and the very next season, my dad said it seemed like there were campers every 50 yards.
He never went back.

Whats missing I suppose is, "how bad do you need it"?
Do you need to fill the freezer that season, or are you there for the hunt.
They are very different, and each individual needs to ask themselves that when they step out of the truck with rifle.
Its okay to put one in the freezer.
Its also okay to let it walk.
By letting it walk, i have actually put in more hours learning to hunt, learning more about what i am hunting.
If I was there just to tag out, I would have 1/20 the time in the field then I have now, and no where near the same amount of
experience.

Its a personal choice.
Either is fine to me.
But, if its just to say you cut your tag every year, I don't see the point.
Youtube cant teach you that.
Conservation comes from within.

[f350ps]

Since when do they determine the seasons? I'd be more inclined to believe the outfitters won't support it regardless of race.
I’m gonna say you’re wrong in your belief but I’m not here to change your beliefs, I remember it well! K

[twoSevenO]

I would expect more from someone mentoring new hunters, It sounds like illegal guiding, you and your friends have reduced yourselves to the level of opportunistic parasites, losing all self respect as true and ethical hunters would have, because a true hunter develops his hunting plan exploring for himself where to hunt, you lost all notion of what is like to be a true hunter, you are cybernetic gut pile hunters. go home boy and learn yourself some self respect.

That was uncalled for and I'm not even sure what the intent behind that ramble even was.
Nothing he posted seemed wrong to me.

He's right about Instagram. He's right about people needing a helping hand.

You are out of your element

[chilcotin hillbilly]

Since when do they determine the seasons? I'd be more inclined to believe the outfitters won't support it regardless of race.
If you don't think the FN in region 5 determine the seasons here you are completely oblivious to what goes on here.
The last time an Immy season was opened here the FN blocked roads, and tore up cattle guards and threatened government with hostile behaviour Guess what the Emmy season was cut short and never returned.

[BlackOwL]

hmm no thats not correct...no one gets there alone..everyone has had help along the road that leads to success..
IMO true hunters mentor share help...
you speak so harshly..i just dont believe you...nor your views.i have had hundreds of folks help shape my hunting..fishing..outdoors help...and never ever feel bad helping others new to this sport...self respect..means doing what you can to help others new to the sport..
hmm helping others is now reduced to opportunistic parasites..losing ones self respect...
your views sound self serving and perhaps selfish..
Srupp

self serving is advocating in favour of a "mentor" who teaches new hunters to steal locations in YouTube from other hunters, this is selfish and this takes all the purpose of hunting of going out and explore with boots on the ground learning to hunt. this is not mentoring, this is teaching the wrong way and is not ethical for a mentor to do this.
I would expect more from a mentor and from experienced guide, but you and livewire 322, (obviously your friend) are wrong.

[BlackOwL]

Awww, I see your timeout did nothing to curb your temper. It seems that you didn’t take the free time you gained to improve your communication skills.

Have you anything productive to contribute to this conversation? Perhaps a note about observed predators or signs of predators in the field, increased hunter presence in areas adjacent to closed region 5 management units, etc…?
Owls are supposed to be wise, so surely you must have something to add.

and you are think you are so smart, coming from a YouTube gut pile hunter. oops sorry "mentor" hehehe.

[Fosey]

Regular hunting season and hunters are not the problem.
after logging and fireguards building and gas exploration
there has to be deactivated roads. Access is the big problem.
Put all the restrictions on hunters because we never say anything.

[Livewire322]

As for mentors and youtube etc,
Its a good thing that people are taking the time to help others learn or get involved in whatever passion they are supplying.
Fish with Rod is an example of someone trying to show people what it takes to fish in BC, be it lake/river or ocean.
When you want to try something new, but don't know where to start, what you need and no one to ask, then it certainly is a
life line to get info.

The underlying issue isn't youtube, its that there is so many people getting into activities, and there is such limited space
or resource now.
Restricted where you can fish, or restricted to when and what you you can catch.
Its those limiting factors we are facing even in hunting, that is the real problem.

Certainly giving away areas to hunt thru landscape or mentioning a lake or river, makes it worse at times.
My dad used to hunt the Bull Rvr, and there were hunters, mostly locals, but it was limited in the amount of folks hunting in there.
Then an article came out (might have been in the BCWF magazine back in the day or other?), with a full write up on this persons
adventure hunting the Bull rvr, and the very next season, my dad said it seemed like there were campers every 50 yards.
He never went back.

Whats missing I suppose is, "how bad do you need it"?
Do you need to fill the freezer that season, or are you there for the hunt.
They are very different, and each individual needs to ask themselves that when they step out of the truck with rifle.
Its okay to put one in the freezer.
Its also okay to let it walk.
By letting it walk, i have actually put in more hours learning to hunt, learning more about what i am hunting.
If I was there just to tag out, I would have 1/20 the time in the field then I have now, and no where near the same amount of
experience.

Its a personal choice.
Either is fine to me.
But, if its just to say you cut your tag every year, I don't see the point.
Youtube cant teach you that.
Conservation comes from within.
You’ve hit the nail on the head with the limited resource statement - there are only so many animals. I’d word the space issue differently though. It seems to me that space is the opposite of limited these days (i.e., we’ve got unprecedented levels of access throughout the province by way of resource roads, fire breaks, etc.) and I think that until there is a concerted push to permanently retire unused access corridors, the problem of over harvesting is bound to continue (until the seasons are all closed - managed to zero).
To be clear, when I say over harvest, I mean that hunter harvest has likely increased beyond what is traditionally considered in the allocation model (total mortality= death caused by predation + hunter harvest + road mortality + death by illness + death by environmental factors…).
MV restrictions are potentially great for solving the over-accessibility issue, but enforcement of them is another beast entirely - hence why I’d rather see deactivation.
Perhaps my sample size is skewed, but I’ve noticed more deactivated roads in Region 3 around Kamloops lake in the last few years - in some cases, old roads from many years past that have been unused by industry for a decade or more are deactivated seemingly at random. Anyone else noticed a trend of roads that are no longer actively used by industry in their areas being deactivated?

[IronNoggin]

... go home boy and learn yourself some self respect.

I seriously recommend you heed your own advice, and wander off until such time as you learn the meaning of the word respect. Your misguided rants here say one hell of a lot more about you and your twisted mindset, than any you are attempting to tarnish.
Reality.

Nog

[Stillhunting]

We planted around 50 rehabbed roads last Spring in Region 3 so it's happening. The fires burnt some of that unfortunately.

Is over harvest by hunters really that much of factor in the province? Perhaps it's a localized problem. The deer where I hunt are incredibly wary of roads, even the does, but when you get in the dark timber, there are lots. In 15 years of hunting this area, I've noticed more WT but I've also focused more on hunting them. There hasn't been the deep snow higher up in November that would push deer lower for several years now. Migratory deer used to move into this area and make for unbelievable hunting, but there are still deer highways in the deep snow in the winter, so I think they just show up later. Wolves and grizzlies are not an issue either but there are lots of cats, coyotes and black bears. I've noticed more moose every year as well. I think cattle and development on winter range are limiting deer numbers more than hunters in the areas I hunt.

[Bugle M In]

We planted around 50 rehabbed roads last Spring in Region 3 so it's happening. The fires burnt some of that unfortunately.

Is over harvest by hunters really that much of factor in the province? Perhaps it's a localized problem. The deer where I hunt are incredibly wary of roads, even the does, but when you get in the dark timber, there are lots. In 15 years of hunting this area, I've noticed more WT but I've also focused more on hunting them. There hasn't been the deep snow higher up in November that would push deer lower for several years now. Migratory deer used to move into this area and make for unbelievable hunting, but there are still deer highways in the deep snow in the winter, so I think they just show up later. Wolves and grizzlies are not an issue either but there are lots of cats, coyotes and black bears. I've noticed more moose every year as well. I think cattle and development on winter range are limiting deer numbers more than hunters in the areas I hunt.
Yes, these are all good points.
And yes, "localized" areas is a better description for over harvesting.
Its by no mean everywhere by a long shot.
The main point for was that when R5 closed, a lot of folks at to go elsewhere then they would have "traditionally".
I saw that impact the 1st year it closed and has only soared (at times) from there.
But this only explains those 2 weeks.
The other hunters, who are local and in there weekly (generally scouting looking for a mature buck), have not only noticed it
in that week time slot, but a lot also in October during any buck.
Thinking that at first folks came in on November and then thru word of mouth heard that better chances available in October.
Throw in social media, and friends seeing other friends had some success and then they want to come as well.
One long time group said in 2 "weekends" (not weeks), they saw first hand more than 10 spikers be harvested.
Another (when my buddy got delayed due to washouts) told him that another spot, close by had 3 small bucks harvested inside
a 100 yard circle.
The total circumference is probably no more than 1.5km.

Both say the traffic not only in November, where/when everyone first noticed the increase happened, but in October is really
bad now.
And they say in their opinion, way more "any bucks" are being harvested.
But, everyone also sees a decline in the numbers of all deer in general in there.

I certainly see the traffic increase.
I can see the numbers look a bit on the decline (but certainly not gone), but i did notice how few small bucks i did see.
Usually for every 10 doe, i would say at least 1 spiker or 2 point close by.
We all notice it, if you have been in there for many years.
We all see the traffic increase (ranchers, hunters , FN)
And they are all starting to take note, from no hunting signs going up, cameras to keep an eye out, the FN wanting full closure
or rotating closure, and the local hunters seem to think the solution is to remove the any buck.

Just seems like everyone is there to tag out, and those that used to look for mature buck, and pass up on the small ones, are
feeling the pressure and questioning "if i let this one go, it most likely will be in the box anyways of another hunter" due to
the hunter # increase and the "Sustained" pressure it is seeing.

Again, localized, but still a concern, on a herd the migrates to a small area compared to September.

[Bugle M In]

You’ve hit the nail on the head with the limited resource statement - there are only so many animals. I’d word the space issue differently though. It seems to me that space is the opposite of limited these days (i.e., we’ve got unprecedented levels of access throughout the province by way of resource roads, fire breaks, etc.) and I think that until there is a concerted push to permanently retire unused access corridors, the problem of over harvesting is bound to continue (until the seasons are all closed - managed to zero).
To be clear, when I say over harvest, I mean that hunter harvest has likely increased beyond what is traditionally considered in the allocation model (total mortality= death caused by predation + hunter harvest + road mortality + death by illness + death by environmental factors…).
MV restrictions are potentially great for solving the over-accessibility issue, but enforcement of them is another beast entirely - hence why I’d rather see deactivation.
Perhaps my sample size is skewed, but I’ve noticed more deactivated roads in Region 3 around Kamloops lake in the last few years - in some cases, old roads from many years past that have been unused by industry for a decade or more are deactivated seemingly at random. Anyone else noticed a trend of roads that are no longer actively used by industry in their areas being deactivated?
Yes, your right about the space.
All the roads add up to way more easier access and les places for deer to hide or at least make it tougher for
hunters to access and I agree, a sign does nothing, and it certainly allows those that break the rules or
FN privilege's to still access them (a sign or wording in a Regulation does not give the ungulates enough
protection).
Ripping up the inactive Spurs do, and access is denied (unless by foot) for everyone, and it is certainly
the route to go, and yes, it is happening and yes, it is helping.
I meant "limited space" in reference to "shutting down an entire Region", causing hunters to condense
in to other areas, that have plenty of access, which makes it that much worse when you think about it.
But, we are on the same page!

[Bugle M In]

We planted around 50 rehabbed roads last Spring in Region 3 so it's happening. The fires burnt some of that unfortunately.

Is over harvest by hunters really that much of factor in the province? Perhaps it's a localized problem. The deer where I hunt are incredibly wary of roads, even the does, but when you get in the dark timber, there are lots. In 15 years of hunting this area, I've noticed more WT but I've also focused more on hunting them. There hasn't been the deep snow higher up in November that would push deer lower for several years now. Migratory deer used to move into this area and make for unbelievable hunting, but there are still deer highways in the deep snow in the winter, so I think they just show up later. Wolves and grizzlies are not an issue either but there are lots of cats, coyotes and black bears. I've noticed more moose every year as well. I think cattle and development on winter range are limiting deer numbers more than hunters in the areas I hunt.
I tried to tell the FN individual that the Fires could certainly have caused the lower deer sightings.
And also that the winters are so mild now that we most likely see the same amount of deer needing to migrate "all the way down".

But, its been mild for many years now up there with little to no snow compared to 3ft plus up top.
So, over time you get used to the amount of deer that do migrate down.
And certainly you wont see as many big boys around either.
But, that which we were getting used to as the norm has certainly trended even more down.
The big spike up, if you ask most is the hunter #'s and the amount of bucks being taken in Any buck season, and the lack of
many mature bucks come November.
Again all 3 main groups are saying that.

[Bugle M In]

The fact is folks, I took my buck on the 2nd day of a 7 day planned hunt and didn't take off home right away.
Decided to hang out with my hunting partners.
Gave me time to check out other areas I don't frequent that much.
But, it also gave me time to just shoot the shit with many folks in the area.

For the most part, no one ever has complaints.
There might be a small issue her or there from time to time, but generally a fairly harmonious area to hunt for years.
Except for some of the stupid shit the past 10 years or so (dead/poached/antler cut off's deer), and some still using ATV etc.

But, this was the first year i heard so much concern from everyone.
And what left me driving home with not a good feeling (and hey, i had a buck in the truck) was how drastic the measures some
want to take it to, to rectify the issues/concerns.
Thus the thread.
Because i had a bad feeling the day i heard R5 was closing.
Hunter impact seems to be a big concern now in those MU's.

[Stillhunting]

I would imagine many hunters will move on to different places because it doesn't sound like a worthwhile effort any more in these MUs. It would be nice if the regional wildlife biologists worked together to avoid causing such a spike in hunter numbers in certain areas. I've lost productive moose spots to wolves, or regulation changes and productive deer spots to too much hunting pressure or logging. It sucks but it forces a guy to explore new areas which can turn out to be even more productive.

[Bugle M In]

In the past the hunters hunting any buck or with doe leh, basically hunted the roads, or sat in cut blocks or a short cruise on
foot thru nearby timber.
And those deer are still taken that way.
The big change is the number of hunters, and that many are hiking up mts now.
I used to as well in October, with rifle to scout and just in case i run into the big guy or those permanent 3 pt.
(which over the years i found it a waste of time).
Now, a lot of these hunters do the same thing, probably with the same intent to search for older bigger bucks.
But, when they turn to go back to the truck, is when they will take a spiker.
And they are willing to drag or pack that thing out.

That's the big difference as i would never waste my time.
Heck, most of the 4pts I find are not worth the time, even by the road.

So, that's where the big difference is and what is being taken, how many and when.
And yes, people will move on when they cant even find those.
But its a shame to see it go that way and not say anything.
I guess we will see what happens?

I know i am looking into new ground already.
And when is the last time someone had just had success and they say its time to go elsewhere!!???

[BlackOwL]

Iron Noggin: you and BCHunting are playing in a way that doesn't let Me respond to insults, blocking Me to reply with a quote: but here you have:
I seriously recommend that you see what originated this, Livewire the "mentor" doesn't need any help to tarnish his person, he does it to himself, and in your twisted mindset you don't see the harm that Livewire is doing stealing locations from other hunters in YouTube, those hunters want to make a living and had put all effort to find their hunting locations, and the 'mentor" is advising new hunters to steal those locations, you tarnish yourself siding with this guy, who (and I am sure) came crawling to you asking for support.


And you siding with him speaks volumes of your twisted mind, despite his prejudiced and discriminatory attacks against Me I suggest that you be more selective of your words and your friends. and if you think that I am going to accept all the corrupted statements done on behalf of your boyfriend Livewire, you have that twisted mind set that you accuse of without any clue.


you have no shame trying to make something wrong appear like something good or positive, in fact borderline with ridicule, those who want to treat Me with respect are Wellcome. those who don't .. well don't come bitching.

[Livewire322]

Iron Noggin: you and BCHunting are playing in a way that doesn't let Me respond to insults, blocking Me to reply with a quote: but here you have:
I seriously recommend that you see what originated this, Livewire the "mentor" doesn't need any help to tarnish his person, he does it to himself, and in your twisted mindset you don't see the harm that Livewire is doing stealing locations from other hunters in YouTube, those hunters want to make a living and had put all effort to find their hunting locations, and the 'mentor" is advising new hunters to steal those locations, you tarnish yourself siding with this guy, who (and I am sure) came crawling to you asking for support.


And you siding with him speaks volumes of your twisted mind, despite his prejudiced and discriminatory attacks against Me I suggest that you be more selective of your words and your friends. and if you think that I am going to accept all the corrupted statements done on behalf of your boyfriend Livewire, you have that twisted mind set that you accuse of without any clue.


you have no shame trying to make something wrong appear like something good or positive, in fact borderline with ridicule, those who want to treat Me with respect are Wellcome. those who don't .. well don't come bitching.
Don’t worry BlackOwl, I won’t block you - if I did, I’d never get an answer to my original question: do you, or do you not support capping the number of hunters in this province?

[IronNoggin]

Don’t worry BlackOwl, I won’t block you - if I did, I’d never get an answer to my original question: do you, or do you not support capping the number of hunters in this province?

Were he (or she?) to answer that honestly, my bet says they don't want any other hunters out there besides themselves.

Imagine, taking mentors to task?
I do this each and every year, and have brought one hell of a passle of Young Guns into the fold, hopefully the right way.
And that is something I will never quit.
Regardless of the self centered drivel posted by some... :roll:

Nog

[srupp]

hmm mentoring is not putting an x on a map..it is very much about HOW..and WHY...YOUR ideology on mentoring obviously brings into question if you have ever helped anyone..perhaps not..fishing..hunting is all about WHY...

i went 3 years in a row to Bella Coola river..watched..but couldnt catch a chinook salmon...warrennkls..Grandpa took the time to mentor me..the why and how..which will lead you to where..and so starts the road to learning..and success.
im proud to carry that generosoty of ED..on to new fisherman..hunters....
cheers
steven

[Bugle M In]

^^^^
Its very hard to type everything that should be a discussion on this type of thread, a thread that can be a touchy subject.
And factors are complex for sure as to why this or because of that.
I knew that steeping in, or jumping in.

We need hunter #'s to go up, if they decline, the lifestyle will come to an end.
We need to mentor, because many that "think about hunting", dont have anyone to show them.
But, at the same time we are seeing wildlife declines.
Declines inside high Pred #'s.
Weather factors as mild winter or scorching summers and fires, all come into the equation.
Social media.
Poor wildlife management lead by government and some of the policy makers.
The whole FN issue and the growing power.

I want to be supportive of any buck, and i know it is needed.
But, some need to consider "Conservation" more than ever before.
Bad Policies and more closures just add to the mess.
And a lack of actually funding anything to make a difference is what makes it acutely sensitive now.

R5 manager needs a kick in the ass.
And some need to "slow it down a bit".
If your intent is to go into country that is/was known for decent size buck/bulls, to look for one, you will never find it if you
all come out with dinks on a weekly basis.

[horshur]

I know it has been a while but I actually talked with region 3 manager when this went down. With 5 shutting down early I thought 3 should follow suit. The deal is that they have harvest numbers for the late season. The late season only accounts for 10% of total harvest. (pretty sure that was the number) so region 3 manager did not see a reason to worry and we would lose the late hunt. That number won't have changed much I am sure someone could look into it if it suited there preferences . AS WELL!!!! they have reduced mule deer bag limit to one from actually three province wide.
If you are going to give a region shit give region 3 manager because no other region has a Late hunt. Okanogan boys can still hunt in December by a short drive and hunt the rut in 3 as well because there manager close it up early, come to think of it you should give region 8 shit as well. The region 3 and 8 and 4 regulations are not aligned with the rest of the province. Region 4 and 8 close Nov10th, region 3 Dec10th(full month longer!) Regions 5,6,7a and 7b close Nov 30th. So what is this deal about aligning seasons??? .

Think about what we stand to lose because you guys want to be able to shoot a big buck.

Alignment of region 3 with region 8 and 4 is the most likely. That is your Southern Mule plan. ​JUST SAYIN !!!

[Bugle M In]

^^^^^Okay, I see what you are saying, and you make valid points.
The R3 manager, I can see where he was coming from however.
It was not an issue to have a late season in the past, for so many years.
There wasn't that much hunting activity late in the season not many bucks taken.
I hunted it a lot during that time frame.

Now, I can see the R3 manager never considered Wolves as an issue because a lot of these MU's did not have them back then.
Fires are also not something that was considered.
And the fires recently have certainly made "where you can hunt" in some of these MU's much smaller.
One factor is the MVC and another factor is, you just don't see many deer in the big fire bowls, but rather the perimeters or
the treed areas beside the fires, so that also condenses hunters to pressure certain pockets more.
Like I say, its a multi issue and somewhat complex thing to just type and explain on the net.

The 2 big areas of concern where, one, the R5 closing and the sudden and large increase in hunters.
And there are plenty of hunters from R5 coming in as well, and you never saw them before up there.

And, the Any Buck season became really popular after that, as i used to scout in October, and you might see a few folks driving
around or hunting a cut block.
But, this any buck season has from the sounds of it, hit a whole new level of hunting and to what extremes hunters will go.
That is something I don't think the R3 manager could have ever of predicted.
And ironically, I am being told there are still plenty R5 hunters in there in October, and all I can "Assume" is, they have gotten to
know the area during the time in past years when R5 was closed as well as all the other hunters.

The other thing is, all these hunters shooting little bucks especially in the Any Buck season, don't know what the next hunter
just took, did take or will still take.
I think many think they are only a small handful of that seasons successful hunters.
That's why we have managers to oversee it.

So, there are a ton of impacts to these MU's that never existed in the past.
They all factor in.
Many factors are ones no one could see coming.
But, the biggest single impact that happened that resulted in hunter #'s to swell in these areas wasn't success.
It was the closure of R5.

And for those looking for big bucks, so what.
They aren't making a big dent in the MD pops anyways.
Never have.
Most of them ate tag soup often.
How many deer I have let walk vs how many tags I have actually cut is night and day.
I ate tag so many times where I didn't need to.
And the same went for many other in the late season.

But certainly now, there seems to be a big shift.
And even those like me, do find it hard to pass up the legal bucks because of all the pressure during those 10 days.

I dont know, maybe the any buck has to go to 3 pt or better.
Then come Nov, 4pt only.
And it would help if R5 opened again, and i think it would iron itself out.

Otherwise, the FN are going to continue on with the pressure, imo.
And if they got their way and closed.
Well, then Come Nov 20, I am in R5.
The "pressure then shifts again"!!!

Closing R3 for 10 days wont be enough if you ask those Bands.
Long time hunters say Any Buck gone would help.
Ranchers have put up the signs now, which they so kindly tolerated the hunting in the past up there.
For me, I am not sure which is best, but only that I felt much of this resulted from R5 closing.