Removal of the BC LEH

[Leveraction]

Well this didn’t go as well as thought
every hunter I speak to in the bush says the same thing with regards to no LEH

good luck to you all, even those of you that were ignorant.

[Rackmastr]

No, if it exactly mimics Alberta and the issues that a priority only system have

Yes if consideration is given to a proper system like Arizona or a system where bonus points are applied or a blended system. Priority only like Alberta and several other states has some major pitfalls as well that should be addressed if looking at a new system.

[goatdancer]

It is not a violation of your human rights.

[Norwestalta]

No, if it exactly mimics Alberta and the issues that a priority only system have

Yes if consideration is given to a proper system like Arizona or a system where bonus points are applied or a blended system. Priority only like Alberta and several other states has some major pitfalls as well that should be addressed if looking at a new system.

Curious what the pitfalls are that you mention?

[KodiakHntr]

Hard no.

Don’t like that you can’t get drawn for a place you want, apply some place else with different odds.

Luck of the draw is simply that, luck. Some people are luckier than others.
In no way is that a violation of your human rights.

[Rackmastr]

Curious what the pitfalls are that you mention?

Point creep is evident across several states that use priority. Some areas it's getting horrible with extremely long waits.

An example of Alberta's pitfalls is the priority sheep hunts. If you didn't apply in year one you'll never draw. Some guys who applied in year two would be over 150 years to ever draw a tag. Broken system when it's priority only. A blended system or a bonus point system seems to work much better when looking at US states and Alberta as examples. Sure there are some positives no doubt. Just think that looking long term a lot of places with "priority" would rather have a different system in place. Even a 75/25 mix of priority is an option if bonus pt system isn't used.

[Bigdoggdon]

Being drawn 8 years straight as a group of three in 6-1 I gotta call bullsh!t. I put in region 6 every year as a group of 3-4. We are typically drawn every 3 years. Only once in 25 years have I been drawn 2 years in a row. They are either lying to you or they have a very good friend that works in the draw system. You are correct that you are at a disadvantage applying as a single hunter. It's about generating the most economic value from the few moose we have. Shared hunts get more hunters into the field with less animals harvested overall so that is the government's goal

[Bernie O]

It is a lottery. I have had a run of luck with moose 4 years in a row and bison 2 years in a row, However for the last 4 years the well has run dry. I never put in a second choice because I only hunt one area and know it well.

[IronNoggin]

Point creep is evident across several states that use priority. Some areas it's getting horrible with extremely long waits.

An example of Alberta's pitfalls is the priority sheep hunts. If you didn't apply in year one you'll never draw. Some guys who applied in year two would be over 150 years to ever draw a tag. Broken system when it's priority only. A blended system or a bonus point system seems to work much better when looking at US states and Alberta as examples. Sure there are some positives no doubt. Just think that looking long term a lot of places with "priority" would rather have a different system in place. Even a 75/25 mix of priority is an option if bonus pt system isn't used.

This is what needs to be considered. The present BC system is a crap shoot - literally.
Alberta's system is just as bad when considering what Rackmastr noted above.

A quick BC reference would be Island Elk and / or Kamloops sheep.
You would never live long enough to realize a tag for either under the priority only system.

Many States deal with this complication by means of a mixed draw system. Those with average (realistic) demand are run on the priority system, those in heavy demand (as the cases noted above) are run on a lottery.

I would support a system of that nature here.

Cheers,
Nog

[tdot]

I'd consider a change. I wouldn't want a 100% points based system. But I'm not up for making this political when the Issue of Human Rights is being used incorrectly in an attempt to weaponize it.

[Squamch]

Absolutely not. The current lottery system is the most fair it can possibly be. A priority system ONLY screws new hunters.

[adriaticum]

bc leh lottery is a joke. its clearly fixed. it shoud be completely random or it should be cancelled.

[The Hermit]

bc leh lottery is a joke. its clearly fixed. it shoud be completely random or it should be cancelled.

It is completely random. I've been putting in for group moose in region 7 with no tags for the past five seasons but have had three draws in the previous five years. For the group hunts each individual hunter's name is in the draw and if any one of them get drawn then they same the tag(s). Two hunters = 1 tag. Three+ hunters = two tags.

I'm saving up for a guided Rosie trip... tired of waiting after some thirty years. ;-)

[Brez]

Sign me up!!

I’m not a fan of this LEH system in this province.
it is not a fair lottery, but rather an antiquated, archaic, system that does not reflect the needs of the current population of hunters in this province.

like many of you, I am also declined year after year for an LEH moose tag, while groups are given priority.
Understand that this is a violation of your human rights, where in you are not afforded the same equal opportunities that others are given on a silver platter.
I just returned from a 5 day of hunt in zone 6-1, I specifically went for the 3 day general open season for bull moose. Camped at Kuyakuz lake, I met the same group of hunters I met in 2018, 2020, and this year 2021.
sharing stories and a camp fire one night, I was floored to learn that the same group of 3 hunters have been given 2 bull tags every year for the last 8 out of 9 years, Their first year , 9 years ago they were declined the LEH. I’m not sure if I’m stunned or angry, 3 hunters applying in a group get 2 tags every year for the last 8 years, 16 moose tags over 8 years while myself and I am sure many of you apply as an individual do not even get a sniff. Not only did this group of 3 get to hunt moose Sept 10 - Oct 19, but they can continue to hunt after the 3 day general open season On October 20-21-22 and they can start hunting again Oct 23 to 31st
why should a group of hunter be given 50+ days to hunt moose year after year and you only permitted 3 days.
your declined a tag year after year, this is a violation of your human rights.

I am wanting to know if you would be willing to put your name on a petition on a web site that I will set up and with enough signatures, I will take this political and put a push behind removal of the LEH and setting up a prioritized lottery system where in your position in the line advances every year you don’t get a tag,
identical to Alberta draw system.
in addition to give increases hunting opportunities for all, the Sean needs to split into 2 possibly 3 time periods of 3-4 weeks each, so you can apply to hunt the early season, the calling season or the late season.

I do t want a lecture or a long story response from anyone.

please answer YES if you would back me on this, and I’ll take it politically.

Graham

[Brez]

IMO the best system is a blend such as this one suggested here. Alberta's was fine (great) till the demand vs supply got really skewed. It is still better than BC - obviously I am not a lucky person. +30 years of LEH moose in region 4 and still waiting for my first one.

This is what needs to be considered. The present BC system is a crap shoot - literally.
Alberta's system is just as bad when considering what Rackmastr noted above.

A quick BC reference would be Island Elk and / or Kamloops sheep.
You would never live long enough to realize a tag for either under the priority only system.

Many States deal with this complication by means of a mixed draw system. Those with average (realistic) demand are run on the priority system, those in heavy demand (as the cases noted above) are run on a lottery.

I would support a system of that nature here.

Cheers,
Nog

[IronNoggin]

It is completely random...

Which is why a handful of their staff were dismissed a few years back due to fixing draws for their buddies?

System is flawed.

Nog

[Moose63]

Which is why a handful of their staff were dismissed a few years back due to fixing draws for their buddies?

System is flawed.

Nog

What!??? References?

[MRP]

Our group is usually 4 groups of 3, some are in PG most on the Island. Got draw 3 times in 12 years or more. And that’s in a area that’s 6 to 1.

If you get a draw you should go to the bottom of the pile, to stay in the pile you must put in every year.
If 4 hunters put in together that should have the option to put in for 1 to 4 moose.

I know our group would be happy with 1 moose between us.

[BCHunterTV]

start a petition.... highlight the due date and establish a draw date. And a points system.

[twoSevenO]

I am not convinced our current system is as random as they claim.

[Pioneerman]

lol Certainly not a human rights issue. It is a random draw and yes you might not get a draw and others might get them repeatedly, that is how it is. My buddies dad won the 649 twice in 1 year, first a Million and then about half that. It is the luck of the draw. I have been extremely fortunate to have had more than one island elk draw, and my share of moose draws BUT I have not gotten any in over ten years, Just the way it goes

[Deer_Slayer]

Stop the group hunts. You have to apply on an individual basis. If you are successful and get a draw then next season you go to back of the line whether you shot a moose or not. I hear you brother. Same people get draws year after year and others get nothing. Last moose draw and only moose draw I ever got was in 2001!

[Norwestalta]

Point creep is evident across several states that use priority. Some areas it's getting horrible with extremely long waits.

An example of Alberta's pitfalls is the priority sheep hunts. If you didn't apply in year one you'll never draw. Some guys who applied in year two would be over 150 years to ever draw a tag. Broken system when it's priority only. A blended system or a bonus point system seems to work much better when looking at US states and Alberta as examples. Sure there are some positives no doubt. Just think that looking long term a lot of places with "priority" would rather have a different system in place. Even a 75/25 mix of priority is an option if bonus pt system isn't used.

I like our system in Alberta. Yes some wait times are long but theoretically everyone will get a chance to hunt any species of big game in Alberta once your waiting period is done. One thing that might make a difference in the waiting times is stricter residency requirements. Non residents that hunt in Alberta can also put in for draws which increase the wait times as well.

[Darksith]

piss off...why isn't it fair....go cry me a river

[bcsteve]

Hard no.

Don’t like that you can’t get drawn for a place you want, apply some place else with different odds.

Luck of the draw is simply that, luck. Some people are luckier than others.
In no way is that a violation of your human rights.
This. And I also call bs on the 8 years in row moose draw.

[Blacktail1]

All due respect, but these threads are literally always started by someone who just struck out . The use of the word “fair” is a swear word in our house. Life’s not “fair “ get over it it. I’m in same boat with leh success. Don’t like it don’t put your name in the drAw and stop your belly aching.

[srthomas75]

"stop the group hunts" wtf. Then you would see less people get drawn, then the real complaining would start.

I feel that there is a large percentage of hunters that don't fully understand how our LEH draw functions. For the most part the people that cry wolf the loudest are the ones entering the most coveted low odds draws. [ and then feel the need to say how they are never chosen ]
ie: " I've been putting in for island elk for 35 years and never won a tag" Seeing how most of the island elk hunt code odd's are about 50:1 or worse then that says that most people will never be drawn for those tags.
On a side note the odd's shown in the synopsis are the results from the previous year [ not what they will be when you enter ] Bottom line is that if you want to be more successful in an LEH draw then start entering for hunt codes that have a history of good odds.
I'm fine with the way the system is now.

[Drillbit]

bc leh lottery is a joke. its clearly fixed. it shoud be completely random or it should be cancelled.

I agree with this

[ACE]

Have applied for Island Roosevelt since the start with no success. Have accompanied three friends who were successful in the draw - good bulls taken.
Have been drawn for sheep twice, G-bear once, moose bull four times.
Think the BC system is fair and will continue to try for Roosevelt.

[Falcodedati]

You know, I apply for draws with listed odds that are better than 250:1, and I do tend to pick up every once in a while. Maybe try going for something other than a glory tag?

[Drillbit]

Have applied for Island Roosevelt since the start with no success. Have accompanied three friends who were successful in the draw - good bulls taken.
Have been drawn for sheep twice, G-bear once, moose bull four times.
Think the BC system is fair and will continue to try for Roosevelt.

Ive applied for at least 4 animals per year for 20+ years now. So say minimum 80 applications.
I won a grizzly draw, shot one the first day. Won a moose draw once, shot one the first day.

i know several people that win the same draws I apply for year after year. It could be the odds, but it seems too far off to me
I honestly think they just say they have a draw, shoot one and tag it for a gos zone

[adriaticum]

What people don’t seem to understand is that any system that allows any kind of interaction with the entries to pad the odds for any group, like they say is done to help new hunters, is prone to being fixed for any other group.
There is a reason why some people always win something, and some always win nothing

[adriaticum]

The draw itself may be random but the entries that are being drawn do not correspond to the entries purchased.
People should remember reports of people winning draws they never singed up for.
How does that happen?

[Brno22F]

I bought a LottoMax ticket last week. Didn’t win. Have my human rights been violated?
Don’t think so.
A hard and emphatic NO to the suggestion by the original poster.
If you don’t like the LEH system, don’t apply. Hunt in a GOS area.

[Bubbacanuck]

No. I’m fine with the way it is

[JoeSixPack]

Sounds like the OP needs to make some friends and put in for a group draw..

[Gateholio]

There is no system more fair than a lottery, and the BC LEH is a lottery.

[Redthies]

I, and every hunter I know put in for at least 3-4 leh draws every year. So far, out of this incredible number of entries (8 choices per person per year, so figure in last five years that’s 40 chances per person) only two have ever been drawn. I’m sampling around 10 friends. I know a few of us only bother with the best odd draws too. Like Pemberton doe at 2:1. You should be winning that one every other year based on those odds. Then I hear a friends girlfriend (not part of my 5 year sample group) has hit moose twice, and elk and doe once each in her first two years of hunting. WTF?

Is it fixed? I don’t know, but it sure as hell isn’t exactly ideal.

[KodiakHntr]

There is a reason why some people always win something, and some always win nothing

Absolutely correct. Some people understand how LEH odds work, and some people are inherently lucky.

[browningboy]

I'm fine the way it is, just need to be more lucky I suppose?

[KodiakHntr]

I know a few of us only bother with the best odd draws too. Like Pemberton doe at 2:1. You should be winning that one every other year based on those odds.


Prime example of someone not understanding how LEH draw odds work. Every year is a fresh draw. What you applied for the previous year means nothing.

All those odds indicate is that the previous year, for every LEH authorization that was offered there were 2 applications. Thats it thats all. You might apply 37 years in a row and never pull that draw because each year it is random and new.

[Darksith]

We pull a draw for something every couple of years on average. How is this possible? Like this year we got a bison hunt. OMG it must be rigged in my favour somehow right? You just gotta be smart, if you're not its not the systems fault. Im not gonna tell you how to be smart though

I do believe there are some people out there that say they get a draw but probably don't and are doing something wrong, or maybe they are white status and just say they got a draw to avoid conflict. Ive seen the same camp for about 7 years in a row and talked to them a bit in a 40:1 moose area...they claim to always have a draw, they probably don't remember me year to year...Ive seen them do some illegal stuff like not the "tag holder" being the shooter and bringing in an ATV to a restricted area...

[adriaticum]

Absolutely correct. Some people understand how LEH odds work, and some people are inherently lucky.


Odds are not difficult to understand and I would say most people know how LEH works (if they read the handbook).
The problem is tampering with entries.
Padding odds for some groups.
If there is a way and a knowhow to pad odds in anyone's favour it will be abused.

[boxhitch]

"The problem is tampering with entries."
"The draw itself may be random but the entries that are being drawn do not correspond to the entries purchased."

really? do tell
you seem to have privileged insight, maybe share

[boxhitch]

The draw itself may be random but the entries that are being drawn do not correspond to the entries purchased.
People should remember reports of people winning draws they never singed up for.
How does that happen?applicant entering the wrong hunt code, reasons are numerous
outdated leh paper, dyslexia, reading comprehension .....

[KodiakHntr]

Not to mention that up until the last handful of years they were entered by hand from a hand written card.

[bighornbob]

Like Pemberton doe at 2:1. You should be winning that one every other year based on those odds.

You do realize that is 50% odds of not getting it or getting it. It never changes. Use the analogy of flipping a coin. Flip it 100 times and the first 99 times you get heads. That 100th flip is still only 50% odds of getting tails regardless of the first 99 flips being heads.

BHB

[wideopenthrottle]

the only change I might consider would be to draw species one at a time....something like sheep then goat then elk then moose...anyone getting one of these would then be removed from the rest of the draws....something like that might be better at spreading the success around maybe?

[emerson]

Apply in areas with good odds.

[boxhitch]

Anyone else remember the leh review done back in 2009 by BCCF
complete review with input and surveys and data and and and

iirc the number of hunters that get more than one tag at a time is minuscule as is the number of repeat winners

[MichelD]

lol Certainly not a human rights issue. It is a random draw and yes you might not get a draw and others might get them repeatedly, that is how it is. My buddies dad won the 649 twice in 1 year, first a Million and then about half that. It is the luck of the draw. I have been extremely fortunate to have had more than one island elk draw, and my share of moose draws BUT I have not gotten any in over ten years, Just the way it goes

Pretty much my situation too.

[tyreguy]

I spoke to a CO one time in PG and asked him how the random draw is run.
He said to me that 60% goes to locals and 40% goes to out of towners........so i asked how is that random if its based off where you live??
I lived in PG and got moose draws for FSJ on second choices a couple of years, the first year i moved from PG i got a PG draw so this did make sense as did the years after when i got draws.
I believe the draw favors people who put in for draws a distance away from their home location which could be why a group can get a draw 8 years in a row.
Gov't service such as ferries, gas taxes, hunting tourism is a higher return for those who have to travel further, and the gov't control who goes.
Group hunts - give 2 tags to 4 guys and you have twice the number travelling and expenses.

If it truly is random, then there's some out there with some really bad luck and some with really good luck - I'm sticking to the conspiracy theory.

[adriaticum]

I spoke to a CO one time in PG and asked him how the random draw is run.
He said to me that 60% goes to locals and 40% goes to out of towners........so i asked how is that random if its based off where you live??
I lived in PG and got moose draws for FSJ on second choices a couple of years, the first year i moved from PG i got a PG draw so this did make sense as did the years after when i got draws.
I believe the draw favors people who put in for draws a distance away from their home location which could be why a group can get a draw 8 years in a row.
Gov't service such as ferries, gas taxes, hunting tourism is a higher return for those who have to travel further, and the gov't control who goes.
Group hunts - give 2 tags to 4 guys and you have twice the number travelling and expenses.

If it truly is random, then there's some out there with some really bad luck and some with really good luck - I'm sticking to the conspiracy theory.


It's anything but random.

[Gateholio]

I spoke to a CO one time in PG and asked him how the random draw is run.
He said to me that 60% goes to locals and 40% goes to out of towners........so i asked how is that random if its based off where you live??
I lived in PG and got moose draws for FSJ on second choices a couple of years, the first year i moved from PG i got a PG draw so this did make sense as did the years after when i got draws.
I believe the draw favors people who put in for draws a distance away from their home location which could be why a group can get a draw 8 years in a row.
Gov't service such as ferries, gas taxes, hunting tourism is a higher return for those who have to travel further, and the gov't control who goes.
Group hunts - give 2 tags to 4 guys and you have twice the number travelling and expenses.

If it truly is random, then there's some out there with some really bad luck and some with really good luck - I'm sticking to the conspiracy theory.


Sounds like a funny story some CO's made up to have fun with suspicious hunters :)

[Livewire322]

It's anything but random.
You sure do like to stick you your guns, eh? Again, got any proof to back up your claims?

A modern high school graduate could write an excel macro to automate the LEH program that is described in the BC government’s description of how the BC LEH works.

I spoke to a CO one time in PG and asked him how the random draw is run.
He said to me that 60% goes to locals and 40% goes to out of towners........so i asked how is that random if its based off where you live??
I lived in PG and got moose draws for FSJ on second choices a couple of years, the first year i moved from PG i got a PG draw so this did make sense as did the years after when i got draws.
I believe the draw favors people who put in for draws a distance away from their home location which could be why a group can get a draw 8 years in a row.
Gov't service such as ferries, gas taxes, hunting tourism is a higher return for those who have to travel further, and the gov't control who goes.
Group hunts - give 2 tags to 4 guys and you have twice the number travelling and expenses.

If it truly is random, then there's some out there with some really bad luck and some with really good luck - I'm sticking to the conspiracy theory.

https://www2.gov.bc.ca/assets/gov/sports-recreation-arts-and-culture/outdoor-recreation/fishing-and-hunting/hunting/limited-entry-hunting/how_leh_works.pdf

And if you ever bothered to fact check that CO’s claims before you regurgitated them on the internet, you should have come across this document from the BC government, which outlines how the draw is supposed to work. Nowhere in that is any mention of location based favoritism.

[adriaticum]

You sure do like to stick you your guns, eh? Again, got any proof to back up your claims?

A modern high school graduate could write an excel macro to automate the LEH program that is described in the BC government’s description of how the BC LEH works.


https://www2.gov.bc.ca/assets/gov/sports-recreation-arts-and-culture/outdoor-recreation/fishing-and-hunting/hunting/limited-entry-hunting/how_leh_works.pdf

And if you ever bothered to fact check that CO’s claims before you regurgitated them on the internet, you should have come across this document from the BC government, which outlines how the draw is supposed to work. Nowhere in that is any mention of location based favoritism.


Do I have proof?
Yes I do.
Here is the proof, if you can read and understand what you read.

https://www2.gov.bc.ca/assets/gov/sports-recreation-arts-and-culture/outdoor-recreation/fishing-and-hunting/hunting/limited-entry-hunting/how_leh_works.pdf (https://www2.gov.bc.ca/assets/gov/sports-recreation-arts-and-culture/outdoor-recreation/fishing-and-hunting/hunting/limited-entry-hunting/how_leh_works.pdf)


I would sooner trust the entropy of a marco from a modern high school graduate, than the system they have created for BC LEH.

[Livewire322]

Do I have proof?
Yes I do.
Here is the proof, if you can read and understand what you read.

https://www2.gov.bc.ca/assets/gov/sports-recreation-arts-and-culture/outdoor-recreation/fishing-and-hunting/hunting/limited-entry-hunting/how_leh_works.pdf (https://www2.gov.bc.ca/assets/gov/sports-recreation-arts-and-culture/outdoor-recreation/fishing-and-hunting/hunting/limited-entry-hunting/how_leh_works.pdf)


I would sooner trust the entropy of a marco from a modern high school graduate, than the system they have created for BC LEH.

Thanks for sharing a link to the same document that I did in the same post you responded to. It appears one of us does have a reading comprehension problem, and it isn’t me.

You’re arguing that any system can be manipulated, and yet you say you would trust a macro, which inherently can be manipulated - after all, it’s just a bit of code - and is more or less what is described in that document.
On the second, third, and fourth pages of the document that you copied out of my post, the process of using a computer program to assign random numbers to each application, compare to previous year’s results for removal based on some set conditions, and assignment of draws. i.e., a computer program, possibly and excel macro, that runs the LEH draw.

So, what exactly is your beef?

[KodiakHntr]

Do I have proof?
Yes I do.
Here is the proof, if you can read and understand what you read.

https://www2.gov.bc.ca/assets/gov/sports-recreation-arts-and-culture/outdoor-recreation/fishing-and-hunting/hunting/limited-entry-hunting/how_leh_works.pdf (https://www2.gov.bc.ca/assets/gov/sports-recreation-arts-and-culture/outdoor-recreation/fishing-and-hunting/hunting/limited-entry-hunting/how_leh_works.pdf)


I would sooner trust the entropy of a marco from a modern high school graduate, than the system they have created for BC LEH.
Uhmmm, what is that you think it says there?

[ACE]

Not been drawn for Roosevelt elk on VI ?
Put more money in the envelope . . . . old joke. :mrgreen:

[tyreguy]

You may be right - i got nothing to back it up other than my conversation in the 90's - might have been the case then and different now.
I think the best way to treat a LEH is its a lottery - great if you win, sucks if you don't.

Sounds like a funny story some CO's made up to have fun with suspicious hunters :)

[Linksman313]

Being drawn 8 years straight as a group of three in 6-1 I gotta call bullsh!t. I put in region 6 every year as a group of 3-4. We are typically drawn every 3 years. Only once in 25 years have I been drawn 2 years in a row. They are either lying to you or they have a very good friend that works in the draw system. You are correct that you are at a disadvantage applying as a single hunter. It's about generating the most economic value from the few moose we have. Shared hunts get more hunters into the field with less animals harvested overall so that is the government's goal

Applied for moose every year since of age in B.C (20 plus years) , always in a group, this year in two groups (multiple regions) and never been drawn. Your story only goes to show how screwed the system is if you drew 8 years in a row as stated.

Lucky Bigdogg

[adriaticum]

Uhmmm, what is that you think it says there?


Yes, it's the same link that Livewire posted.
The "Enhanced odds system" is all you need to understand that it's not a proper draw.
It's tampered with, people are adjusting things, "enhancing odds".
If there is a way to "enhance odds", you can bet people are doing it in ways it was designed to work, and in ways it was not designed to work.

It's not an issue right now, but it will be an issue going forward more and more.
If there is a group of people "enhancing odds" for themselves and their friends, you can bet it's going to become an issue the more we lose game opportunities.
Right now GOS has enough opportunities for people to hunt.
But once deer hunting becomes an exclusive club like moose/elk hunting, people are bound to start asking questions.

[russm]

How is it it a lottery if its prioritized? Suck it up,if you get something be happy,if not be happy for all the GOS we have.

[Livewire322]

Yes, it's the same link that Livewire posted.
The "Enhanced odds system" is all you need to understand that it's not a proper draw.
It's tampered with, people are adjusting things, "enhancing odds".
If there is a way to "enhance odds", you can bet people are doing it in ways it was designed to work, and in ways it was not designed to work.

It's not an issue right now, but it will be an issue going forward more and more.
If there is a group of people "enhancing odds" for themselves and their friends, you can bet it's going to become an issue the more we lose game opportunities.
Right now GOS has enough opportunities for people to hunt.
But once deer hunting becomes an exclusive club like moose/elk hunting, people are bound to start asking questions.
No, no, no - You’ll not get out of this that easily.
The document that we posted details how a computer program goes through and flags applications for species (except mule deer) that have been applied for by people that were successful in years past (one or three years, depending on the species) and flags those applications.
It then goes on to detail how random and unique numbers are assigned to all applications, how authorizations are drawn based those random numbers for first choice, and how the system ignores every other flagged application or every two of three applications for some other species if they’ve been flagged as drawn before.
If the system described in the pdf we’ve both posted is followed, there would be no room for tampering in the ways you’ve described. It’s a data set that is churned through a computer program (which you’ve stated would be acceptable).

Perhaps in days of yore, when we all painstaking penned in on LEH cards what hunts we wanted, there could have been some nefarious meddling with the system.

[Darksith]

I spoke to a CO one time in PG and asked him how the random draw is run.
He said to me that 60% goes to locals and 40% goes to out of towners........so i asked how is that random if its based off where you live??
I lived in PG and got moose draws for FSJ on second choices a couple of years, the first year i moved from PG i got a PG draw so this did make sense as did the years after when i got draws.
I believe the draw favors people who put in for draws a distance away from their home location which could be why a group can get a draw 8 years in a row.
Gov't service such as ferries, gas taxes, hunting tourism is a higher return for those who have to travel further, and the gov't control who goes.
Group hunts - give 2 tags to 4 guys and you have twice the number travelling and expenses.

If it truly is random, then there's some out there with some really bad luck and some with really good luck - I'm sticking to the conspiracy theory.
he doesnt know, hes just trying to sound like he does.

[Darksith]

Applied for moose every year since of age in B.C (20 plus years) , always in a group, this year in two groups (multiple regions) and never been drawn. Your story only goes to show how screwed the system is if you drew 8 years in a row as stated.

Lucky Bigdogg
you can't be in 2 groups lol

This is the real issue. Guys simply don't get how it works, they hear something from someone drunk at a bar and boom its fact. Applying in a group isn't gonna guarantee a win, if one person in the group has won in the last 3 years then the whole group gets reduced odds. All reduced odds is is each entry gets 3 numbers. Reduced odds only gets 1 number. Your number gets pulled you win. No entry will get 30 numbers. No one is assigning anything, its all an algorithm built by a 3rd party contractor.

[LBM]

could tweek a few things, like if your drawn and successful cant apply for another 3 or 5 years.

[dbergen69]

No. Current system is fine. Maybe for 2 week draws like in region 5.

[adriaticum]

No, no, no - You’ll not get out of this that easily.
The document that we posted details how a computer program goes through and flags applications for species (except mule deer) that have been applied for by people that were successful in years past (one or three years, depending on the species) and flags those applications.
It then goes on to detail how random and unique numbers are assigned to all applications, how authorizations are drawn based those random numbers for first choice, and how the system ignores every other flagged application or every two of three applications for some other species if they’ve been flagged as drawn before.
If the system described in the pdf we’ve both posted is followed, there would be no room for tampering in the ways you’ve described. It’s a data set that is churned through a computer program (which you’ve stated would be acceptable).

Perhaps in days of yore, when we all painstaking penned in on LEH cards what hunts we wanted, there could have been some nefarious meddling with the system.


I'm not trying to get out of anything.
You are talking to a computer programmer about computer programs.

Just because something is a computer program, it doesn't mean it's more secure and tamper proof.
If something is automated, as a computer programmer, I may be more inclined to tamper with it, rather than if it was manual because it's too much work .
It's easier to manipulate something that's computerized than something that's manual.
Don't be under an illusion that computerized systems are more difficult to tamper with.
I can guarantee you that when banks were robbed with guns there were less bank robberies than today when everything is computerized.
There is far more financial theft today, than in the wild west days.

If there is a computer program that works with data, there is a database behind it.
And if there is a database behind it, it's easier to tamper with it than with 100K paper ballots.

Sorry nothing in that document gives me an impression that the draws are a lottery.
In fact quite the opposite.

What would be acceptable to me is that there are no interventions, no odds fixing and everyone's ticket is always entered in the draw and let the luck decide who wins.
That's how a lottery works.

[The Hermit]

Which is why a handful of their staff were dismissed a few years back due to fixing draws for their buddies?

System is flawed.

Nog

Hey really? I haven't ever heard about this and I'm pretty sure I would have if that were true. Not suggesting that you are making shit up but I really want to get to the bottom of this story. Can you name names? Who specifically was fired? Who specifically was benefitting? thanks

[Livewire322]

I'm not trying to get out of anything.
You are talking to a computer programmer about computer programs.

Just because something is a computer program, it doesn't mean it's more secure and tamper proof.
If something is automated, as a computer programmer, I may be more inclined to tamper with it, rather than if it was manual because it's too much work .
It's easier to manipulate something that's computerized than something that's manual.
Don't be under an illusion that computerized systems are more difficult to tamper with.
I can guarantee you that when banks were robbed with guns there were less bank robberies than today when everything is computerized.
There is far more financial theft today, than in the wild west days.

If there is a computer program that works with data, there is a database behind it.
And if there is a database behind it, it's easier to tamper with it than with 100K paper ballots.

Sorry nothing in that document gives me an impression that the draws are a lottery.
In fact quite the opposite.

What would be acceptable to me is that there are no interventions, no odds fixing and everyone's ticket is always entered in the draw and let the luck decide who wins.
That's how a lottery works.

You mustn’t be that good of a programmer if you can’t imagine a system that is tamper resistant based on the document that was linked by me and you. I’m only half shabby at programming and I sure as heck could.
Sure, you and a select few people with access to the code could tamper with the system, but how many people do you honestly think have access to that and the ability to make changes and have incentive to tamper. Jeez, you want to talk about odds, figure the odds of that out!

[Darksith]

I'm not trying to get out of anything.
You are talking to a computer programmer about computer programs.

Just because something is a computer program, it doesn't mean it's more secure and tamper proof.
If something is automated, as a computer programmer, I may be more inclined to tamper with it, rather than if it was manual because it's too much work .
It's easier to manipulate something that's computerized than something that's manual.
Don't be under an illusion that computerized systems are more difficult to tamper with.
I can guarantee you that when banks were robbed with guns there were less bank robberies than today when everything is computerized.
There is far more financial theft today, than in the wild west days.

If there is a computer program that works with data, there is a database behind it.
And if there is a database behind it, it's easier to tamper with it than with 100K paper ballots.

Sorry nothing in that document gives me an impression that the draws are a lottery.
In fact quite the opposite.

What would be acceptable to me is that there are no interventions, no odds fixing and everyone's ticket is always entered in the draw and let the luck decide who wins.
That's how a lottery works.

You mustn’t be that good of a programmer if you can’t imagine a system that is tamper resistant based on the document that was linked by me and you. I’m only half shabby at programming and I sure as heck could.
Sure, you and a select few people with access to the code could tamper with the system, but how many people do you honestly think have access to that and the ability to make changes and have incentive to tamper. Jeez, you want to talk about odds, figure the odds of that out!
exactly. How many people are buddies with the programmers

[srthomas75]

could tweek a few things, like if your drawn and successful cant apply for another 3 or 5 years.

would this apply if you won a doe draw? no more entries after a big win like that?

[bigben]

After thirty two years of applying for moose permits as a individual and group draws for the last 14 years and not even had a sniff i got a turkey draw boy I am so happy I can fart

[shadowhunter]

I have few problems with the LEH systems. What pisses me off is everyone who is hunting moose on there other parties tag. like a 12 man moose camp hunting any two moose because 4/12 guys won a draw for two moose and its also a spike fork season or the like, but all 12 shoot whatever moose they want till they hit there limit. l get it the same amount of moose are (potenitally, but potenially not) dying. Its always bugged me how many people casually fill others tags...... goes on for more then moose....... Id be pissed if someone else in the party shot my moose/elk/sheep JMO

[Harvest the Land]

Apply in areas with good odds.

The voice of reason. What a concept eh?

They should find a way to conduct the draws in a much more transparent manner so everyone can see what's going on, then that might work to quell at least some of the skepticism.

(Haven't been drawn in 6 years but only apply to very low odds MU's)

[adriaticum]

You mustn’t be that good of a programmer if you can’t imagine a system that is tamper resistant based on the document that was linked by me and you. I’m only half shabby at programming and I sure as heck could.
Sure, you and a select few people with access to the code could tamper with the system, but how many people do you honestly think have access to that and the ability to make changes and have incentive to tamper. Jeez, you want to talk about odds, figure the odds of that out!

You are not a programmer at all.
In fact you are not that technical.
But nice try.

[Livewire322]

You are not a programmer at all.
In fact you are not that technical.
But nice try.

You got me, I’m not a programmer, but I sure as shit can code. I’ve stated elsewhere on this forum what I do for a living, you can seek that out and determine how technical I am.
The fact remains, it’d be easy to write a program based on that document. Could someone manipulate it, the data set, or the results in some way? Sure. Same could be said for the 6-49 though.
Is it likely to happen? No.

[adriaticum]

You got me, I’m not a programmer, but I sure as shit can code. I’ve stated elsewhere on this forum what I do for a living, you can seek that out and determine how technical I am.
The fact remains, it’d be easy to write a program based on that document. Could someone manipulate it, the data set, or the results in some way? Sure. Same could be said for the 6-49 though.
Is it likely to happen? No.


Coding and programming/understanding systems are two different things.
You can watch a video on youtube and if you are under 30 most likely write a little program in some language to do some work.
But having experience and understanding how information systems work and how users interact with them is a whole different ball game.
Most systems are n ot independent from user input and no system is safe from tampering.

No it's not easy to write a program based on that document.
And the same can't be said for 6/49 which is a completely different, mechanical (at least I think it's still balls in a cement mixer system).

[Livewire322]

…
No it's not easy to write a program based on that document.
And the same can't be said for 6/49 which is a completely different, mechanical (at least I think it's still balls in a cement mixer system).

You’re either unimaginative, or in the wrong career field if you honestly believe that.

The 6/49 has been based on a random number generator since 2019. A computer program, rife with nefarious manipulability.

[whitlers]

I have few problems with the LEH systems. What pisses me off is everyone who is hunting moose on there other parties tag. like a 12 man moose camp hunting any two moose because 4/12 guys won a draw for two moose and its also a spike fork season or the like, but all 12 shoot whatever moose they want till they hit there limit. l get it the same amount of moose are (potenitally, but potenially not) dying. Its always bugged me how many people casually fill others tags...... goes on for more then moose....... Id be pissed if someone else in the party shot my moose/elk/sheep JMO

I have to agree with you there. When I was starting out and didn't know better I was around that type of camp. I don't go near that crap anymore but it unfortunately seems to be common.

As for the draws most of the guys that get moose draws year after year are using their wives, cousins, unborn children and any other hunter number they can get their hands on to form a group.

[Bugle M In]

I am not a fan of current system.
Buddy got pitt rvr leh tag a few years back, and now he is back at having the same chances as me again (yes, slim, but still).
I dont know what the leh should be like.
If you win a 20:1, then maybe shouldnt be allowed to enter that specific one for 20 years afterwards??? (if you win).
Again, not sure what it should be, but for me and my opinion, i hate the system as it is.

[adriaticum]

You’re either unimaginative, or in the wrong career field if you honestly believe that.


Yes that, or I have experience in design and implementation of information systems and you are full of desire to make the world a better place.

[Livewire322]

Yes that, or I have experience in design and implementation of information systems and you are full of desire to make the world a better place.
I’ll bite, do illuminate as to what I am missing.
The database is populated by our entries (appends new entries to some location), someone at the Ministry hits run on a program that grabs the entries (maybe there is some filter to weed out improperly filed out or bogus entries - although the website itself could and does do that to some extent), the program compares entries with the previous three year’s winners and applies a ‘flag’ based on those who’ve been successful for certain species, it assigns a random and unique number to each entry (sorting them in ascending order), and runs down the list assigning first choices to non-flagged entries and applies a function for flagged entries to skip every other one or every two of three depending on the species applied for - simple, could be done in an excel spreadsheet, would be made easier with a simple program.

So the vulnerabilities are the database, the code for the program and the database, the previous year’s results, the person(s) hitting run on the program, and the sending of results (manually or automatically).

[Deer_Slayer]

wow never knew that, but suspected it. Scumbags

[Deer_Slayer]

Anything like this done in a secretive way is shady. Remember when 6/49 or lotto winning numbers were drawn live on TV? Now you just trust the winning numbers they throw out after their computer analyzes all the entries and spits out non winning numbers. Publish names of successful applicants and let hunters see who keeps getting draws year after year while they waste their money being honest. 1 successful draw in 20 years makes me think I am being ripped!

[Geo.338]

The BC Leh is not a lottery , it is a biased draw where previously successful entrants are penalized for their good fortune , tired of hearing how good Alabertas and some states are , tired of hearing it should be a once in a lifetime draw ,why should I be peanalized just because I’ve had 2 Roosevelt Island elk draws , just sayin .

Get rid of enhanced odds and make it entirely random and leave it to Lady Luck




QUOTE=The Hermit;2292493]It is completely random. I've been putting in for group moose in region 7 with no tags for the past five seasons but have had three draws in the previous five years. For the group hunts each individual hunter's name is in the draw and if any one of them get drawn then they same the tag(s). Two hunters = 1 tag. Three+ hunters = two tags.

I'm saving up for a guided Rosie trip... tired of waiting after some thirty years. ;-)[/QUOTE]

[J_T]

"Create" hunter opportunity.
LEH has it's place. But, we should caution using it to manage hunters and reducing some opportunity. Shift some hunts to archery hunts, move some rifle hunts outside the rut. There is little to no demand right now for muzzle loader, but a high percentage of hunters use a bow. In fact, in R4, 50% of hunters are using archery tackle (at some point in their hunt), and most residents to R4 believe the archery seasons present a much better opportunity than the rifle GOS.

[srthomas75]

1 successful draw in 20 years makes me think I am being ripped!


Without context [ what draws were you entering for ] this doesn't really mean anything.

[Bugle M In]

I have to wonder at times.
Sometimes feel some just have the right hunter # (if that is what they use?) the the computer likes.
And also, why should my friend, who won the pitt lake elk leh, after a couple of years once again have the same chance as I??
Once you win that, you should be disqualified after that.
Just saying.

I have applied for years, and not just me, but 2 others in the group for the same bull moose leh.
No one has ever won that.
And those odds arent that bad in there.
So yes, it has left us wondering for sure.

[Livewire322]

I have to wonder at times.
Sometimes feel some just have the right hunter # (if that is what they use?) the the computer likes.
And also, why should my friend, who won the pitt lake elk leh, after a couple of years once again have the same chance as I??
Once you win that, you should be disqualified after that.
Just saying.

I have applied for years, and not just me, but 2 others in the group for the same bull moose leh.
No one has ever won that.
And those odds arent that bad in there.
So yes, it has left us wondering for sure.

What if you blow your ACL the week before the hunt and can’t go? What if you don’t harvest your animal? What if your wife dies on the day your supposed to leave? What if your dog dies?
Surely, there must be a reason that should allow you to re-enter…

[Danny]

I’ve always wondered how you can have reduced odds in a random draw?
anyone shed some light on that ?
am I totally missing something

[Livewire322]

I’ve always wondered how you can have reduced odds in a random draw?
anyone shed some light on that ?
am I totally missing something

Read the description of how the LEH program works. It was linked a few pages by by me and someone else.
They apply a random and unique number to each application and flag people that won certain draws in years past. The program then assigns first choice to the random numbers (starting at 1 and going on from there). When it encounters a flagged application (for past success) it skips every other or every two of three flagged entries.

It’s as random as it can be.

[Danny]

Thanks for the explanation! Makes sense !

[Bugle M In]

What if you blow your ACL the week before the hunt and can’t go? What if you don’t harvest your animal? What if your wife dies on the day your supposed to leave? What if your dog dies?
Surely, there must be a reason that should allow you to re-enter…
I suppose if there was a way to allow for the tag to be redrawn, i suppose it could be possible.
But thats for them to work out and consider if you win a big odd draw and cant submit once winning it.
But, again, that isnt the case right now.

[J_T]

No worries. The odds will be better next year when you have to submit proof of dual vax in order to submit. Similar to the residency requirement.....

[HappyJack]

Read the description of how the LEH program works. It was linked a few pages by by me and someone else.
They apply a random and unique number to each application and flag people that won certain draws in years past. The program then assigns first choice to the random numbers (starting at 1 and going on from there). When it encounters a flagged application (for past success) it skips every other or every two of three flagged entries.

It’s as random as it can be.

Funny, 3 male hunters apply for 7-10 bull moose, for years we all get NIL, buddy number 2 gets his wife putting in for the same draw, she wins 4 out of 5 years in a row [saw the cards so no BS]....the odds of having that kind of luck must be astronomical or the enhanced odds story they feed us is baloney? And the biggest burn is during that time the same outfitter gets 25% of the bull moose tags being allocated, perhaps their clients should have to win an LEH tag before they hire a guide rather than gifting them 25% of the allocation.

[HappyJack]

I suppose if there was a way to allow for the tag to be redrawn, i suppose it could be possible.
But thats for them to work out and consider if you win a big odd draw and cant submit once winning it.
But, again, that isnt the case right now.

It should be with any draw, that super smart computer program could distribute them in the order that was created in the first draw.

[Livewire322]

Funny, 3 male hunters apply for 7-10 bull moose, for years we all get NIL, buddy number 2 gets his wife putting in for the same draw, she wins 4 out of 5 years in a row [saw the cards so no BS]....the odds of having that kind of luck must be astronomical or the enhanced odds story they feed us is baloney? And the biggest burn is during that time the same outfitter gets 25% of the bull moose tags being allocated, perhaps their clients should have to win an LEH tag before they hire a guide rather than gifting them 25% of the allocation.
Luck is a funny thing. Some people get hit by lightning more than once in a lifetime, some people have repeat big wins on the 6-49. Random chance is random chance.
I had three moose draws in 7 years, two were back to back and in highly sought after areas. Haven’t had one in the last 10 years though.

The reduced odds thing could be done better. A moratorium on reapplying for the species for a period of time could make more sense for areas that have high application volumes, but you could run the risk of excluding all interested parties in other low volume application areas with such a system - i.e. it would need to be well run, dynamic, and informed with harvest data and application volumes year to year… so, not government run, because we all know the BC government is anything but dynamic when it comes to game management.

Does the current system have flaws - yes!
Does every other jurisdiction in NA have its own flaws - yes!

[HappyJack]

It would be great if those shared and group moose hunters were restricted to 3 pt moose or better, leave the spike forks for those that aren't lucky enough to get a bull moose draw.