no shoulder penetration?

[5/10/85]

I shot a nice 3x4 blacktail last weekend from 20 yards, slightly quartering towards me. Put the pin right behind the shoulder and WHACK - like I hit a rock - he took off and I later found the arrow he had carried away about 60 yards along his escape trail. One blade broken off and the first inch and half covered in blood, flesh and hair. Only a very small amount of blood for about 20 or 30 yards, then nothing.

I figured I hit him square in the shoulder socket. CRAPPY. I would have thought the arrow would have penetrated. This ever happen to anyone else, or is this just one of those shots that hit just right so as not to get through?

Anyways, I hope he's okay.

[Bow Walker]

Depending on your KE, it sounds like it should've penetrated a bit more, or maybe skipped off the bone and carried on to do more damage.

Failing that - you hit it just right. Just right to generate a miss? Tough luck that's for sure. At least the animal will recover and maybe you'll get another chance at it in the future.

[Clint_S]

I shot a blacktail some years ago with a 60 lb recurve. The arrow went right through the shoulder blade and killed him pronto.
I don't know but I wouldn't shoot anything except a solid 2 blade broadhead, period. But thats just me.
There's plenty of studies to support my choice including our camp testing a whole whack of broadheads against a cast iron frying pan.
Not good for testing penetration but none of the removeable blades held up.

[Bowzone_Mikey]

Why are you shooting at the shoulder with an arrow would be my first question (evidently you havent seen WT madness 9 where Mark Drury chews the hell outta a guy for taking that excact same shot) But I can relate seeing a nice (big???) deer and all ... I was once known for taking a shot like that ..... I got luckier than you ... thats all .... I havent taken a shot like that again since tho.

I am kinda curious about your set up ... Bow, poundage , arrow wieght etc ...

[5/10/85]

I'm shooting 125 grain solid fixed broadhead - 60 lb compound, and I believe I said I aimed right BEHIND the shoulder. So, I missed by a couple inches from 20 yards. So shoot me, I'm not a world champion.

[Kirby]

Just one of those shots that we dread...Sounds like he should recover, good luck on the second chance:smile:

I've personally hit sholuders twice and never had a problem penetrating if I was shooting fixed. My mechs barely made it through the should and only got one lung. My typical set up is around 70 KE.

Kirby

[Big7]

That woud be a tough shot to make...I've bow hunted a bit (never killed anything other than grouse and rabbits mind you) and I'm no expert by any means, but a quartering to shot is probably one of the most dangerous shots to make with a bow is it not? Just curious in case I find myself in the same position!

[bruin]

I shot a blackbear with a recurve 60 lbs and a 2 blade Zwickey. I hit square on the blade and got the same penetration you did. I saw the bear a couple of weeks later with a slight limp in another valley. Hopefully your deer will recover. I also shot a blacktail and a goat with the same bow setup in the shoulder and got complete penetration and a quick kills. All three animals were completely broadside. Shoulder shots happen, and it's better to be high than low obviously. Avoid the quartering to shots though, nothing but problems, you're either in the shoulder or catching one lung and liver which means a longer blood trail. A compound should definitely penetrate with that setup unless you hit at or near a joint.

[Bowzone_Mikey]

I'm shooting 125 grain solid fixed broadhead - 60 lb compound, and I believe I said I aimed right BEHIND the shoulder. So, I missed by a couple inches from 20 yards. So shoot me, I'm not a world champion.

You also said it was 1/4 towards you .... what was towards you his head or butt??? ....
1/4 towards means hes facing towards you

he was 1/4 towards you and you aimed behind the shoulder .... triing for a gut shot?

Archery is a learning curve ... we could chew yer butt out for taking a shot like that ... but that wouldnt be very productive now would it.

125 gr broad head means nothing if you dont have the weight behind it
whats your total arrow weight .... 60 pound draw doesnt mean anything either ... how effeicint are your cams ... are they very easy to pull ...are they a tough pull .... what is your bow ... what kind of speed are you getting ... we can go on and on ...

The reason I got lucky IMHO when I did a shot like that ...1/4 to ..25 yrds away is because My bow is argueably one of the most snotiest bows ever made (Hoyt Supertec) with some of the most effient cams ever made (Hoyt Spiral) and my arrows at the time were about 450 grains going just over 300 feet per second. It was a short recovery ... but I got my butt chewed out by my (for lack of better term) mentors .... Made me think about what coulda gone wrong on what I thought at the time was a slam dunk.

I personally just hope that you chalk this expiriance up to educational ... and think about it when faced with a similar situation ....

[Kirby]

Mike this deer is 1/4 towards... you telling me you wouldn't sneak an arrow in tight to the shoulder?
http://www.deersecrets.com/White-tailed_deer.jpg

If you look the lungs go back for a LONG ways, and the leg bone isn't very deep for the lower 1/2 of the deer, lot of room to slip an arrow in.
http://www.redhawk-archery.com/deer-anatomy.jpg

[Bowzone_Mikey]

the way that deer is is ...you could do as you say Kirby ...but IMO you would only catch 1 lung .... hes on the move ..very slowly ...wait for 5 more steps on his line of travel and you have a almost a perfect Broadside shot at 2 lungs and a heart .... at any rate I would probally hold off for at least 3 more steps and stick em where the red dot is for a doulble lung shot

where that deer stands now to get a double lung you would hafta hit the blue dot .... not a high percentage shot IMO

[Jetboater]

splitting hairs boys, get out and try for another shot at that buck Adam, I might beat you to em if your not careful...
alot of time with blacktails you dont get 3 steps because they are in the thick stuff normally...

unfortunalty its part of bowhunting...

[Bowzone_Mikey]

never hunted a Blacktail in my life .... they dont exist on the other side of the rocks .... But that there is the best peice of advice yet .... get out and get another shot at him

[Avalanche123]

"alot of time with blacktails you dont get 3 steps because they are in the thick stuff normally" - this is one of the reasons I am yet to score. Unless the shot is right, I won't shoot. (I passed on my first sheep this fall cause the shot wasn;t quite right. I prefer that than the alternative)
Ok now these are my standards that I set for myself. To each his own.
And yes, unfortunatley I guess it is part of bowhunting. Been there done that....Just hope I don;t do it again.

[Kirby]

Mike, you could hit the red and catch the back edge of the far lung on that current shot. I would personally split the 2.

Lungs go back farther than most people think.

Kirby

[Spokerider]

Bow hunting DEMANDS a different set of ethics than does firearm hunting.....

We all make less than perfect shots, but, the responsibility rests with the archer to know his equipment, know his prey, realize the limitations of his tackle and respect these limitations, thus minimizing the risks of wounding an animal.

Been there, done that, so now I only take broadside or quartering away shots........

I shoot traditional, heavy wooden arrows and 160gr Grizzley 2-blade broadheads. Penetration is not an issue if I do my part ie: shot placement.

[Ddog]

all i can say here is that it is a total rookie mistake, why would you should at an animal slightly quartered towards you? cause you feel you can do it, in the fifteen years i have been bow hunting that is one of the first things i learned NOT TO DO, i am sure you probably knew that to, so i geuss its a lesson learned!

[oldtimer]

Kirby, I don't consider that pic quartering to. Maybe 1/2 quatering to. I would take the same shot as 5/10/85 did but perhaps a smidge back. Quartering to shots are a bitch, was the leg forward or not ? I have only taken 1 deer with my bow so means an expert but I would wait for the forward step and release. I only shoot 75 grain Muzzy's but they are moving so my kinetic energy is sufficient.
5/10/85--- you will get him. Mike

[Bow Walker]

Welllll..........
looking at the anatomy - and looking the photo, I'd aim for slightly lower and in between the red and the blue dot. :wink:

[ratherbefishin]

I have never killed a deer with a bow[over 50 with a rifle-and I've just aquired an excaliber exomax crossbow]-so bear with me-on that frontal quartering shot-would aiming ahead of the shoulder be acceptable?seems to me if you hit a bit ahead of your aiming point -you would take out the jugular,a bit high would be a spine shot-and back a bit you would penetrate the far lung.Aiming back of the shoulder seems to risk a gut shot.I agree in a perfect world the best shot would be slightly quartering away,but unless the deer was perfectly in the clear,waiting might risk a brush deflection-and a wounded animal.Don't know-this is new to me

[Will]

would aiming ahead of the shoulder be acceptable?
No........nothing up front but bone & muscle.

[Bow Walker]

all i can say here is that it is a total rookie mistake, why would you should at an animal slightly quartered towards you? cause you feel you can do it, in the fifteen years i have been bow hunting that is one of the first things i learned NOT TO DO, i am sure you probably knew that to, so i geuss its a lesson learned!
I'm sure the guy was taking a shot that - in his opinion - was definitely do-able. No sense raggin' on him for what turned out to be a less than 100% sure shot.:wink:

Who among us have not taken less than sure shots - even with a gun!!:roll:

[Awishanew]

From what I am reading there are alot of potential people to take the bowhunter education course. Don't take shots that you think, if I can just sneak the arrow in here(you know what I mean). It is broadside or slightly quartering away or it is NO shot. From a tree stand it also should be far enough away from the base of the tree to get not just one lung but 2 lungs. You owe it to all the rest of the bowhunters and also to the deer. Don't take long or low percentage shots and be sure you learn what that means.

[5/10/85]

Mike, I appreciate your honesty, and I'd be interested in a PM regarding KE - my bow is at a legit 60lbs, but not sure how many grains I got. I also believe I did say "slightly quartering" which I should have clarified to say "basically broadside, but a couple of steps to my left (walking left to right)." I set the shot up perfectly, as I spotted him walking along an old road and I was able to find a shooting lane a few steps back (but since he was so close I couldn't risk maneuvering too much lest he hear me). 3 more steps and he would have been behind a bush. I drew when he wasn't looking, but he heard me and looked up (damn loud camo - since changed to fleece for the non or light rain days). I waited until he put his head back down to take another step then let him have it (or so I thought). Guess I just plain hit him square in the socket, but from 20 yards, I still feel like an idiot. Nice rack, freezer full of meat... Just pisses me off that rifle hunters get away with a little error and I don't. Anyway, I appreciate all the feedback, and I'd hate to think of myself as a rookie. I've made some pretty decent shots (I think) haven't I? (anyone?)

[Ddog]

bow walker, i am one who has taken nothing less than a sure shot, i have missed a few of those by my errors but i will not risk wounding an animal , i have let countless animals walk away cause the shot wasnt there, including a huge 9x7 bull elk this year at 18 yards.
i wasnt ragging on him, if it sounded like it i am sorry to you 5/10/85, i simply asked a question and answered it myself to.
my mistake if you arent a rookie, but i thought you were new to the bowhunting world, how long have you been bowhunting 5/10/85?
how many animals have you taken with your bow?

[Bow Walker]

Sorry Ddog - I didn't mean to come across as being pissy. If I'd have looked at his avatar I'd have realized he didn't need my .03 cents worth of "support".

Reading his post #24, it's easy to see that ka-ka happens.

[5/10/85]

3 deer, 1 bear

I've been bowhunting for 4 years now, so maybe that still classifies me as a rookie, but was 100% sure I had a perfect shot. As I said, he was broadside but a little to my left (so I said SLIGHTY quartering toward, but maybe that wasn't as accurate description). My bear I took slightly quartering away, but had the shot quartering toward. I didn't take it and maneuvered in from behind to get the better shot - a little nerve-wracking considering I was 25 yards away. I consider myself to be an above average shot, but maybe the average is a lot higher than I think;)

[J_T]

We do have the ribs to consider. They can divert the direction of penetration of the arrow. If the animal you hit, was "basically broadside" and only slightly quartering towards you (and you tucked the arrow in behind the shoulder), this is clearly one of the higher percentage shots.

I'm often surprised when I find my animal, at where the arrow passes through the body. As a bowhunter, we have to aim for the centre line of the body, not so much the target (10 ring) on the outside hide.

If your animal was in the position I've indicated above, there is a slight chance your arrow might have hit a rib and been directed further into the high abdomen area. If that is the case, any penetration hole gets plugged up pretty fast. The animal is going to go down, but not immediately. It will be bleeding really only on the inside not leaving you much of a trail.

A few years ago my brother had a beautiful pass through chest cavity shot on a mulie. We waited about 1 hour before tracking it. When he found it, it jumped and he shot another arrow. The second arrow appeared to completely penetrate the animal again.

When we found the buck what we found was that the second arrow (wood arrow) had hit a rib and the arrow lay, completely covered by the hide, but along the outside of the ribs. It was amazing.

While we want that close front leg to be in a forward stepping position, if the animal has his spine just so, he closes off the rib cage to us. Some times we can power through, but not always.

JT

[Ddog]

5/10/85,,,in my books that is still a rookie, or the second step up from being a rookie, considering you have taken several animals with your bow.
however you should never consider yourself "above average" .
what is average anyways?
i have been at it now for 15 3/4 seasons and i learn every year i am in the bush, the hardest thing i had to do was let that big bull walk away this year, although, i knew i could put an arrow right in the back of his neck, but the chance of the "what if" was overwhelming.

getting back to your story, i probably would have taken the shot you had aswell after you elaborated on the shot.
i might suggest you look at getting a more powerful bow, the cow elk i took was at about 20 yards slightly downhill and my arrow with a 100gr spitfire mechanical blew right through her shoulder blade and exited dead centre of her lung.
well anyways,,,,in short,, to bad the buck got away. but the season isnt over yet!...cheers

[Thunderstix]

Good to see this thread ended up in a good conversation as at first it was not shaping up that way.

[Coyote]

Part of the reason you got little penetration is the fact that you took a quartering toward shot. Too much bone in the way as you discovered, Vitals too well protected behind bone on that shot. Bad juju. Better to wait for a broadside or quartering away. Your setup is plenty good enough. Just a bad angle. Live and learn. Wishing you better luck next time.

[threedhunter]

it is just possible that the deer wascloser than 20 yds, and you actually hit the shoulder/ leg joint as the deer stepped forward on the opposite leg.that would close the rib area to about 1/3 what you look at if stretched to step on the near side. this can and does happen fast,less time than it takes your arrow to arrive after you release.eg, arrow at 295 fps shot broadside, 35 yds, standing still, took 1 step after i released , hit in the flank/top of the loin area. yes, recovered but a cleanup nightmare.:redface:we learn from our experience, every day is a new one so keep looking, you may yet get that deer, it'll be the one that for now is a little slower to move away but when healed it'll be educated to hunters for this year.:-P