The Ole Copper vs. Lead Debate

[jesse]

So since I started shooting my Tikka T3x 30-06, I have been using Sako’s Super Hammerhead 180 gr. (a bonded soft point). The only reason I started on the Super Hammerhead was because I was told that factory load ammunition from Sako are what are tested in Tikka firearms.

Now, I am no ballistics expert and don’t purport to be, but I find that the Super Hammerhead 180 gr. bullet drop is quite significant past 200 yards (9.6 inch drop at 300 yards with a 200 Zero). Also I realize that the bullet drop is more significant because I am using a 180 gr. bullet, so maybe that is a moot point. Furthermore, I find it increasingly hard to get a hold of these bullets (mind you I know this is a general trend for all ammunition nowadays).

I have been looking at some other bullets, such as the Nosler Trophy Grade and Accubond as well as doing some research on copper bullets such as the Barnes TTSX and Hornady GMX. My question is what other people’s experiences are between lead vs. copper bullets. At the end of the day, I care about dropping an animal as quick as possible with maximum penetration, with less of a bullet drop a bonus (I'm not usually shooting big game past 300 yards anyways). Obviously I understand that there a ton of mitigating factors, but I was just wondering what people’s experiences with different factory loads are etc. Maybe it’s best to move-down bullet grain? Move to a copper bullet? A combination of both?

Let's hear what you are shooting, and what's your experience with such ammunition.

[Sharpish]

I use only Barnes. No spitting out lead fragments at the dinner table, always an exit wound, they are accurate and kill quickly.

[Hugh Mann]

Well, let's put it this way.
The cleanest kills I have ever seen or made have all been with mono bullets. I could not believe the trauma I saw on a whitetail after hitting it with a 6.5CM 120 Ttsx at 220m. Entry and exit looked the same, the entire inside of the hide on both sides was red jelly. Witnessed or been told about large bears dropped in their tracks by 308 monos. Minimal meat damage too. I would highly, highly recommend mono bullets to anyone.

[GreyDog]

Been shooting stuff with cup and core bullets for sixty years and will probably close out the show doing the same. Having said this, I also believe the Barnes bullets are an excellent choice for most hunting applications and, in the unlikely event that I run out of all the conventional bullets I have on the shelf, I'll give them a try. GD

[Weatherby Fan]

I find the best compromise for bullet weight in a 30-06 is the 165gr, the last elk I shot was with a 165gr Nosler Partition from a 30-06.......1 shot dead elk

I would check out the Nosler Trophy Grade 160gr AB or the Federal Terminal Ascent 155gr, Nosler Etips 168gr or Barnes ttsx 150/168gr

[Darksith]

So since I started shooting my Tikka T3x 30-06, I have been using Sako’s Super Hammerhead 180 gr. (a bonded soft point). The only reason I started on the Super Hammerhead was because I was told that factory load ammunition from Sako are what are tested in Tikka firearms.

Now, I am no ballistics expert and don’t purport to be, but I find that the Super Hammerhead 180 gr. bullet drop is quite significant past 200 yards (9.6 inch drop at 300 yards with a 200 Zero). Also I realize that the bullet drop is more significant because I am using a 180 gr. bullet, so maybe that is a moot point. Furthermore, I find it increasingly hard to get a hold of these bullets (mind you I know this is a general trend for all ammunition nowadays).

I have been looking at some other bullets, such as the Nosler Trophy Grade and Accubond as well as doing some research on copper bullets such as the Barnes TTSX and Hornady GMX. My question is what other people’s experiences are between lead vs. copper bullets. At the end of the day, I care about dropping an animal as quick as possible with maximum penetration, with less of a bullet drop a bonus (I'm not usually shooting big game past 300 yards anyways). Obviously I understand that there a ton of mitigating factors, but I was just wondering what people’s experiences with different factory loads are etc. Maybe it’s best to move-down bullet grain? Move to a copper bullet? A combination of both?

Let's hear what you are shooting, and what's your experience with such ammunition.

Bullet drop is just something you have to account for. Each bullet is going to have a different BDC and that combined with velocity will determine how much drop will occur. You're shooting a 06...its not the flat shooter but neither is the .308 and guys were winning 1000 yard shoots with that for a long time. It doesn't have anything to do with lead vs copper. I have several 06's...don't shoot a copper bullet out of it, it simply doesn't have the velocity to allow for proper expansion down range. Stick to lead core bullets that expand easily and stay within 400 yards or spend the time at the range to know your ballistics. Velocity is king and thats why you see a lot of guys shooting a .300wm, they think its the fastest round out there and they feel the need to compensate for something ;-):-P

[835]

Slowing bullet drop is done by speeding up bullets. Which is done by lightening up grain weights. Bullet drop can also be calculated

People who use monos tend to pic a " lighter than normal" weight to speed it up. This helps with tragectory as well as function. Speed helps them open.

What you are looking for, if i have it right is a lazer to 300 yards. I would drop your 180 to 165 or 150 Ttsx

[Darksith]

Slowing bullet drop is done by speeding up bullets. Which is done by lightening up grain weights. Bullet drop can also be calculated

People who use monos tend to pic a " lighter than normal" weight to speed it up. This helps with tragectory as well as function. Speed helps them open.

What you are looking for, if i have it right is a lazer to 300 yards. I would drop your 180 to 165 or 150 Ttsx

or by adding powder behind it. You still won't get a 165g bullet to push past 2800fps out of an 06. Which means past 300 yards you could be shedding 30% of your velocity easily, which will make a mono bullet ineffective and it will act like a FMJ. If your trying to break bones like in a bear shoulder then a mono bullet is decent, but if your trying to hit a moose past 400 yards you might regret not having the expansion to rattle around inside the vitals. granted a lung is a lung, but wierd things can happen and sometimes those lead core bullets make a mediocre shot a solid kill shot still

[GreyDog]

You can drive 180's to 2800 out of a 30/06. !65's can usually do 2900. If I was going to use a Barnes, it would be a 150 TTSX, started out at around 3050fps. This is also easily achievable with a 30/06. If you are using factory loads, they are what they are and going lighter is indeed the only way to go faster. Most '06 factory loads drive 180's around 2600-2650 and 165's to 2750. They are still effective on game. GD

[Fella]

I use the TTSX as well but you have to keep in mind there is a minimum speed they can’t drop below in order to expand properly. If you use them within their effective velocity they are awesome. I’ve killed deer and a elk with those bullets and they are devastating.

[willyqbc]

I have several 06's...don't shoot a copper bullet out of it, it simply doesn't have the velocity to allow for proper expansion down range.


You still won't get a 165g bullet to push past 2800fps out of an 06. Which means past 300 yards you could be shedding 30% of your velocity easily, which will make a mono bullet ineffective and it will act like a FMJ.

With all due respect...i have to heartily disagree. Myself, my son and my 2 hunting partners have been shooting barnes exclusively for 20 years now. in that time we have taken over 150 animals off 3 continents at ranges from 5 feet, to 596 yards.

I will speak specifically to the 30.06 mentioned above, as it was my primary weapon for over 10 years and is still the choice of one of my partners. He started with the 168 ttsx way back when, and never saw a reason to switch....he still shoots it today. I also started with the 168, but being a tinkerer I later moved to the 175 LRX and then the 200 LRX.

in new zealand, on a light skinned goat at 596 yards the 168ttsx started at just under 2900fps made its typical entry and exit holes and turned everything in between to soup....nicked a rib going in, but no major bone contact. Hard to imagine a better scenario for "pencilling through", but it performed perfectly

a b.c. moose shot at 400 yds with a 175 LRX started at 2800 fps.....hit a rib going in, small exit wound, lungs mangled. bull turned straight away and my follow up at the base of the neck shattered spine and blew a large hole out the throat

a B.C. moose at 465 yds broadside with a 200 LRX started at 2650 fps.....hit the ball at the bottom of the shoulder blade, destroyed the heart and bottom of lungs, carried on in a straight line and smashed out the ball on the other side as well. Major bone was hit on that one, so take that into account.

Almost all barnes have somewhat unique operation ranges....we have a list of a bunch of them on the site here. Barnes minimum impact velocities (huntingbc.ca) (http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/showthread.php?143755-Barnes-minimum-impact-velocities) Note the low minimum velocities for the 168 ttsx, 175LRX and 200 LRX

In my experience, if you give yourself 100-200fps above the stated minimum speed and keep it to 1000 ft/lbs as well, you will never have a problem with the barnes. in most cases for rounds ive loaded for, this usually gives you an effective range of 550-700 yards, depending on the cartridge used.

For the OP, who it sounds like will be 400 yds and in.....its hard for me to envision anything better than the 175 LRX at around 2800fps

This is all just my personal experience and my opinion!
Take care and good luck!
Chris

[Keta1969]

I've had 2 pass through with barnes. Both on deer both under 100 yards. Both shots with cup and core would have been dead right there. So from my PERSONAL EXPERIENCE I won't use a mono bullet. Lots of guys like them but I know I'm not the only one to see this. You have to use what you have confidence in.

[835]

or by adding powder behind it. You still won't get a 165g bullet to push past 2800fps out of an 06. Which means past 300 yards you could be shedding 30% of your velocity easily, which will make a mono bullet ineffective and it will act like a FMJ. If your trying to break bones like in a bear shoulder then a mono bullet is decent, but if your trying to hit a moose past 400 yards you might regret not having the expansion to rattle around inside the vitals. granted a lung is a lung, but wierd things can happen and sometimes those lead core bullets make a mediocre shot a solid kill shot still


Fully aggree,
i didnt mention Adding powder because i assumed the OP was not a handloader. i also aggree with your differences between the mono and cup and core.
Same as the difference between a "Hunting vld" like Berger Vs whatever.... They are designed to open at slow speed way out there... hit that moose at 100 yards and that bullet grenades...

There is no right or wrong choice, really ...
i load 110TTSX in my 270 win. 3350FPS it is flat to 400. Effectivly no need for a range finder. In my 338RUM i load 250 Accubonds @ 3055 IIRC?

[Stu]

I shoot TTSX out of a .270win. Nothing I've shot so far complained about it not being good enough.

[IronNoggin]

... If your trying to break bones like in a bear shoulder then a mono bullet is decent, but if your trying to hit a moose past 400 yards you might regret not having the expansion to rattle around inside the vitals. granted a lung is a lung, but weird things can happen and sometimes those lead core bullets make a mediocre shot a solid kill shot still

Agreed. Firmly that is.

I have noted this previously, but will do so again.
My Outfitter Buddy in Alberta is a known producer of book mulies, whitetails and elk.
If you insist on running mono bullets, he will happily recommend another outfitter for you.
He simply will not allow any who hunts with him to run them. Period.
That decision was made after several longer than necessary recoveries, and several losses of game being hit with them.
I was in on a couple of the recoveries. Pencil holed, even in the right location, they can and will go a lot further than I would have ever thought possible.

Personally I will not use them as a consequence of those experiences.

Cheers,
Nog

[BCBRAD]

Killed a lot of animals with the Barnes X, both flat based and TSX, but not the TTSX, since starting to use them in 1992.

There have been a 3 or 4 that penciled right through, figured that they were dropped and pinched the opening to the cavity, but who knows.

I like the 168 TSX in the 30-06 at ~2900 ft/s and have had no issue with them.

A 200gn Accubond between 2650-2700 ft/s is noticeable step up in knock down power over the Barnes mono's.

It is comparable in performance to any of the medium calibers 33,35,36 and 375 for on game.

The Accubond with its decent BC does not shed velocity as fast as a lighter faster bullet, so as the distance gets long the Accubond will still maintain its freight train like momentum.

Also, the shrapnel produced by the bullet shedding weight, will lacerate other internal organs nearby on a less than perfect shot placement. Lead/copper has not been an issue in the meat unless one takes an ass shot.

[Tred]

So I use mono bullets primarily because the wife doesn't want "lead" in our food. I haven't had an issue with them in accuracy or expansion, so. . . I use them.

A negative I have read is that mono bullets have to be longer to gain the same weight, can be an issue with rifling, tight action, and possible expansion issues depending on energy.


I won't use cup and core for hunting as I don't like the separations I've witnessed and the lost weight. The loss of weight is some where and it is in my meat.


I'd probably give bonded a try, but again back to the wife and not having a major issue.


May be side tracked a bit, but I like Ron Spommer's video talking about Mono, Cup and Core, and Bond think he does a fair impartial review of the different types of bullet technology and shows off some of his recovered bullet collection. Check it out.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=We6OM03wSEI

Another cool review of bullet weight retention: Hunting with Non-lead Ammunition Homepage (huntingwithnonlead.org) (http://www.huntingwithnonlead.org/bullets_long_range.html)

[mastercaster]

Been using TTSX for almost 10 years now and won't go back. Only once have I needed a follow up shot with the couple of dozen animals that I've shot during that time frame. The majority of the animals dropped on the spot.

What no one has mentioned yet is that you SHOULD drop down 20-30 gr. in your copper (mono) bullet choice compared to cup and core or bonded bullets because they retain about 98% of their initial weight which is considerably more than lead bullets that get dispersed through the meat. I use a 120 gr. in my 7-08 and 130 gr. in my .308. Both give me approx. 3000 fps.

As long as your velocity doesn't drop below 18-2000 fps the copper bullets will expand/cloverleaf enough for a good clean kill,,,,even less velocity is required for LRX bullets. Speed kills!

I like eating as healthy as possible and that means reducing heavy metal consumption as much as possible besides many other things. Other people don't seem to care about this but that's their choice. Just be aware that up to a third of a lead bullet's weight can be dispersed though out the meat because they blow apart. If you don't mind ingesting lead, go for it.

People have said when using mono bullets you can eat right up to the hole because there is far less meat damage and they're not far off with that statement based on the animals I've tipped over. That why Barnes often suggests hitting the shoulder bone. Anchors the animal on the spot with little damage to the meat.

[Stu]

May be side tracked a bit, but I like Ron Spommer's video talking about Mono, Cup and Core, and Bond think he does a fair impartial review of the different types of bullet technology and shows off some of his recovered bullet collection. Check it out.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=We6OM03wSEI


Very informative video, thanks for sharing.

[cmp88]

I shoot Barnes ttsx in 30-06, 168grn and 180grn bullets. I emailed Barnes and they said those rounds will reliably expand down to 1500 FPS. With my hand loads which are no where near the max powder recommended the bullets will reliably expand out to 650-700 yards for the 180's and 750-800 yards for the 168's. That is while keeping around 1000 Ft-Lbs of energy which is enough for a deer sized animal. Those ranges are further than most would be comfortable shooting an animal at, including myself.


Bullet drop is just something you have to account for. Each bullet is going to have a different BDC and that combined with velocity will determine how much drop will occur. You're shooting a 06...its not the flat shooter but neither is the .308 and guys were winning 1000 yard shoots with that for a long time. It doesn't have anything to do with lead vs copper. I have several 06's...don't shoot a copper bullet out of it, it simply doesn't have the velocity to allow for proper expansion down range. Stick to lead core bullets that expand easily and stay within 400 yards or spend the time at the range to know your ballistics. Velocity is king and thats why you see a lot of guys shooting a .300wm, they think its the fastest round out there and they feel the need to compensate for something ;-):-P

[.330 Dakota]

Anyone that has shot one will agree that the Mountain Goat is one of BC's toughest critters. My 1st goat was taken with a 330 Dakota driving a 225 TTSX @ 2950 fps. The shot was 295 yards, and the bullet opened perfectly and exited leaving a football sized exit. Goat went down like a rock, then got up and ran 40 yards and died,,bullet worked great, goats are tough

[Quince2]

Been using 165 AB's in tikka with great results. Bought new s/s tikka and it HATES them, terrible groups. Then switched to ttsx 168's and back to sub moa. Will see this fall on how they open on animal.

[375shooter]

So since I started shooting my Tikka T3x 30-06, I have been using Sako’s Super Hammerhead 180 gr. (a bonded soft point). The only reason I started on the Super Hammerhead was because I was told that factory load ammunition from Sako are what are tested in Tikka firearms.

Now, I am no ballistics expert and don’t purport to be, but I find that the Super Hammerhead 180 gr. bullet drop is quite significant past 200 yards (9.6 inch drop at 300 yards with a 200 Zero). Also I realize that the bullet drop is more significant because I am using a 180 gr. bullet, so maybe that is a moot point. Furthermore, I find it increasingly hard to get a hold of these bullets (mind you I know this is a general trend for all ammunition nowadays).

I have been looking at some other bullets, such as the Nosler Trophy Grade and Accubond as well as doing some research on copper bullets such as the Barnes TTSX and Hornady GMX. My question is what other people’s experiences are between lead vs. copper bullets. At the end of the day, I care about dropping an animal as quick as possible with maximum penetration, with less of a bullet drop a bonus (I'm not usually shooting big game past 300 yards anyways). Obviously I understand that there a ton of mitigating factors, but I was just wondering what people’s experiences with different factory loads are etc. Maybe it’s best to move-down bullet grain? Move to a copper bullet? A combination of both?

Let's hear what you are shooting, and what's your experience with such ammunition.

Some of the best bullets for you to consider are Nosler Partition, Federal Terminal Accent, Barnes Lrx, and Nosler Accubond in weights anywhere between 150 gr. to 180 gr.

[Codes44]

Truth is, the average hunter likely won't notice - most animals in BC are taken 200 yards or less due to terrain and other obvious reasons. Unless your shooting long range, as long as your choosing the right grain for the game it really won't matter - the rest is just sales tactics to get you to buy premium ammo to shoot your buck at 100 yards lol. You can buy the most expensive premium ammo, it won't increase your odds of tagging out, it also won't make you a better, more accurate shooter or hunter. Too many guys I know spend more time researching and spending money on the the best ammo available then ACTUALLY SHOOTING THIER GUN and improving their accuracy. Putting the cart before the horse - 90% of is the guy or gal pulling the trigger - quality ammo does play a factor don't get me wrong..but not as much as shooting as much as you can, being comfortable with your gun and actually shooting.

[Fella]

Truth is, the average hunter likely won't notice - most animals in BC are taken 200 yards or less due to terrain and other obvious reasons. Unless your shooting long range, as long as your choosing the right grain for the game it really won't matter - the rest is just sales tactics to get you to buy premium ammo to shoot your buck at 100 yards lol. You can buy the most expensive premium ammo, it won't increase your odds of tagging out, it also won't make you a better, more accurate shooter or hunter. Too many guys I know spend more time researching and spending money on the the best ammo available then ACTUALLY SHOOTING THIER GUN and improving their accuracy. Putting the cart before the horse - 90% of is the guy or gal pulling the trigger - quality ammo does play a factor don't get me wrong..but not as much as shooting as much as you can, being comfortable with your gun and actually shooting.

you’re not wrong. I don’t have time to shoot nearly as much as I used to and my reloading gear still hasn’t been unpacked from our last move so I have a box of Remington core lokt in my safe at the moment!

[JAGRMEISTER]

do your homework and you will end up shooting 165 gr. in any bullet make! I have years of experience with same and espite the techies who would argue that their shit doesnt stink, there is no better load for the '06!

[JAGRMEISTER]

Bullshit begets bullshit

[Fella]

do your homework and you will end up shooting 165 gr. in any bullet make! I have years of experience with same and espite the techies who would argue that their shit doesnt stink, there is no better load for the '06!
Be interested to hear your reasoning here!

[fishhunt]

May be side tracked a bit, but I like Ron Spommer's video talking about Mono, Cup and Core, and Bond think he does a fair impartial review of the different types of bullet technology and shows off some of his recovered bullet collection. Check it out.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=We6OM03wSEI



Thanks for posting this. I found the video very informative.

[mikeman20]

I only hunt with my 168 Barnes TSX reloads in my 3006. They are a little hotter than factory loads but not excessively. Always had exceptional results with the bullets, big exit wounds and bang-flops. Been using them for most of a decade now, same load the whole time. About 1.5 MOA at 100 yards.

I'm tempted to try the TTSX, but I have the feeling it's pretty much the same, so why bother.

[Codes44]

you’re not wrong. I don’t have time to shoot nearly as much as I used to and my reloading gear still hasn’t been unpacked from our last move so I have a box of Remington core lokt in my safe at the moment!

For sure, I mean I'd lean to the more premium ammo over the cheapest stuff for sure if that's the case as it will be more accurate on average. I still don't buy the cheapest, depends what I'm hunting too but usually mid to high range $ ammo. To me, quality optics and knowing how to shoot your gun and it's tendencies come before ultra premium ammo but I'm a pretty simple man haha.

[jesse]

Thank you everyone for all the comments/advice (including the video)! You're all right, at the end of the day it's up to my own capabilities, not the gear itself. However, with that being said, I've heard some good things on here about the LRX and 168 TTSX, so I think I'm going to pick up a box and see how they run through my Tikka 06. I will keep you all posted on how it goes!

[mastercaster]

Thank you everyone for all the comments/advice (including the video)! You're all right, at the end of the day it's up to my own capabilities, not the gear itself. However, with that being said, I've heard some good things on here about the LRX and 168 TTSX, so I think I'm going to pick up a box and see how they run through my Tikka 06. I will keep you all posted on how it goes!

If it was me I'd go with the 150 gr. TTSX which would be comparable to any 180 gr. non-mono bullet due to the MUCH higher retention of its original weight once it makes contact.

[Fella]

If it was me I'd go with the 150 gr. TTSX which would be comparable to any 180 gr. non-mono bullet due to the MUCH higher retention of its original weight once it makes contact.

Agreed, when I had a .30-06 I loaded 150gr ttsx and was able to pick one out of the far side hide of an elk and it kept almost 100% of its original weight. Perfect mushroom.

[mastercaster]

Agreed, when I had a .30-06 I loaded 150gr ttsx and was able to pick one out of the far side hide of an elk and it kept almost 100% of its original weight. Perfect mushroom.

Nice keepsake for a once in lifetime Rosie elk!

Just had a thought,,,,,that's not what you had hanging from your ear in that last hunting photo I saw of you, was it?? haha :wink:

[Fella]

Nice keepsake for a once in lifetime Rosie elk!

Just had a thought,,,,,that's not what you had hanging from your ear in that last hunting photo I saw of you, was it?? haha :wink:

no it’s hanging from my left nipple

[KodiakHntr]

no it’s hanging from my left nipple

Coffee. Everywhere.

[Tred]

Glad people appreciated the video. It really helped me in better understanding bullet advertising, and also why the cheap bullets I use to use separated from the jacket.

[willyqbc]

Jesse....the 175 Lrx is a great choice....shoot me a pm if you'd like to see some of my reloading data using that bullet, I think I played around with 3 or 4 different powders, might give you a good idea where you want to start

Chris

[Callahan]

Been hunting with the 180gr ttsx in a 30-06 for a few years now. They are tough bullets. I shot a bear in the head at 6 yards, bullet went all the way though, broke pelvis on the way out.

[hawk-i]

My personal observation on game animals that I've shot is that mono bullets don't kill as quickly as lead copper bullets.

Not saying I don't use them (as they are very accurate in some of my rifles) but overall, one on one, they don't kill as quickly...just my observations though :)

[Callahan]

My personal observation on game animals that I've shot is that mono bullets don't kill as quickly as lead copper bullets.

Not saying I don't use them (as they are very accurate in some of my rifles) but overall, one on one, they don't kill as quickly...just my observations though :)

Agreed. I'd prefer if they expanded more.

https://i.postimg.cc/K32wP4b6/barnes.jpg (https://postimg.cc/K32wP4b6)


Impact velocity ~2500fps, broke both humeri.

However, it's nice to eat lead free burgers.

[ElectricDyck]

I've shot barnes and now shoot the Accubond. I prefer the performance of a bonded bullet, that being said it doesn't matter shot placement is everything.

[butthead]

https://gungoals.com/how-to-sight-in-a-rifle-scope-at-25-yards/
try this on your gun see how it responds

[Bluewhite'ngreen]

Hold on there. Getting 3000 fps out of an -06 with 150 gr bullets is about all you'll get. Careful not to step in the bs. Velocity does not come free. Typically the higher the velocity, the higher the pressures. Anything over 3000 fps with 150 gr bullets in an -06 is close to or at max pressures, possibly above. Which means you may be stretching the metal of your rifle's action, which means a rifle with minimum headspace may develop more headspace, or worse develop excess headspace. When that happens, the blow from the firing pin becomes inconsistent, meaning accuracy suffers. Worst case, the pressures are too high because of the powders you chose.

Factory ammo is all loaded to SAAMI specs. Zero the rifle at 250 yds and you will hit anything out to 300 yds and a few yds to spare with that point blank range. Past 300 yds, learn how to compensate for drop.

[tdot]

If you're still researching new bullets, I'd highly recommend Hammer bullets. They are solid copper, but designed around a different theory then the typical Barnes style copper. I've been using them for 3 years in multiple calibers and they are fantastic. I've completely converted all of my hunting rifles to them. Do some research into them, you won't be disappointed. Bonus is they are the easiest bullet I've done load development for. I've found sub MOA hunting loads in under 10 shots fired. They're in the US, but ship to Canada.