Population Of Elk ,EK.

[hunter1947]

How many elk hunters out there think that the population has increased in the EK in the last 8 year????. This was after they implemented the six point season.:?:. :roll:.

[Jonny outdoors]

I went hunting Elk hunting this year for the first time and I saw eight in four days.My partner and my self call two small bulls in to thirty yards from us and had them calling back and thrashing the bushes it was one of my best hunts

[model88]

I have been hunting elk in the East Kootenays for many years now and in my opinion, yes the elk herd has increased, both in numbers and size of bulls.

Before the 6 point rule you were happy with shooting a 5 point, if you could find one. 6 points were big news back then. The early cow seasons and the harsh winters did a number on cows and calfs as well.

Now I hear you guys saying how you don't see many legal bulls. They are out there, but lately there has been a lot more pressure. Five, ten fifteen years ago, there wasn't near as many hunters making the trip here to hunt. I believe the bulls are being pushed deeper, changing their habits and becoming call wary.

Just an opinion:smile:

[TGF]

Increasing every year for sure. I keep seeing more and more in areas where you would not see them in past.

[rocksteady]

I think the population is wayup, especially in the trench...

Not to get a huge debate started here but I feel a lot of that has to do with the cattle taking a huge amount of the elks forage away in the summer, as well as the high elk fences being put up on farmers fields, so the elk have adapted to live in the unclaimed middle ground...

[6616]

The elk population in the EK is probably near to, or over, carrying capacity and agriculture land depredation levels are the highest ever.

Everyone interested in hunting in the EK should look at this:
http://wlapwww.gov.bc.ca/kor/wld/Proposed_reg_changes.html

Click on "proposed changes"

[Seeadler]

The elk population in the EK is probably near to, or over, carrying capacity and agriculture land depredation levels are the highest ever.

Everyone interested in hunting in the EK should look at this:
http://wlapwww.gov.bc.ca/kor/wld/Proposed_reg_changes.html

Click on "proposed changes"

Some ideas I like. Especially the GOS on elk in the west Kootenay, should distribute hunter pressure better. I also like the moose idea. And the turkey.

I'm not so sure about the 3 point elk idea, between that and the youth/senior season and LEH antlerless, will there be any bulls left in a few years?

[sniper ren]

It would be nice to see a five point season. Sometimes it seems like that sixth point can be few and far between. Anyone with any thoughts???

[chevy]

To be honest i think they should extend the elk season an extra 10 days only for bowhunters and have the last 10 days of rifle season 5 spike and better just my 2 cents

[6616]

I'm not so sure about the 3 point elk idea, between that and the youth/senior season and LEH antlerless, will there be any bulls left in a few years?[/quote]

It would have to be a very short season. Remember we're still killing fewer elk than in the mid-eighties, so a short season should be OK.

[6616]

To be honest i think they should extend the elk season an extra 10 days only for bowhunters and have the last 10 days of rifle season 5 spike and better just my 2 cents


There are lots of potential possibilities and this is one of them. These will all be discussed at the next advisory committee meeting I hope. One thing is apparent, the population continues to grow so there is potential for more opportunity to harvest bulls.

[Islandeer]

The kill needs to be spread out proportionately between sex and age class. Take some more cows and young bulls, get more hunters bringing home some elk. When a real winter kill settles in and takes out 60% of the elk in the EK the oppurtunity will be gone.

[eastkoot]

NO..Bow hunters do nothing but disturb the elk.. Not very many are killed, wounded or chased around, yes. I've hunted and lived here for 40+ years and the idea of someone wanting privledged hunting seasons for bows is something I strongly dissagree with. If you want to bow hunt, do it. But it should be your choice for the entire season for that species. You have opted to hunt an early bow season so on Sept 10th, you don't get the double standard and bring out the 300 Mag., you chose the bow, stick with it.. As for 5point season, no. We've got a large healthy population and an opportunity to go out and see, bugle and watch elk practically every outing, why do we have to kill something every year for it to be a good season?? Chevy, if you live here and go out at all near the end of the season, imagine the number of elk that would be killed.. Do we really want that to happen, or should we just let them be for next years 6 point season..?? Leave things the way they are..Islander, we shouldn't be managing a population on the expectation of a bad winter, what if you increase harvest based on natural die off that doesn't occur?? Someone mentioned not being able to count 6 so let's make the season 5 or better.. Sorry you can't count 6 but not a reason to change the season. 1300 other hunters did count 6 according to the harvest.

[Allen50]

here on vancouver island there is a great increas in the elk pop. i ran across a heard the other week with about 30 elk in it, and the other day my mom called me at work and said there were about 40 elk, with at least 5 big bull's that she saw, when i got home they were no longer there, it would be great to see a draw in this area for maybe two bulls and a couple of cows,
oh yea if your a bow hunter, most i know that bow hunt don't disturb any animals in the woods, its the gun hunters that shoot from 500 or more yards that bother animals, or wond animals, a bow hunter has to be very, very quit, to get into range to get a animal,,,so not to many animals are disturbed,,,and there are some hunter's that just can't figger out how to get close to a animal with a bow, so that just disturb's them,, so they become a gun hunter,,, happy hunting to bow hunters and gun hunters out there,,,,

[BlacktailStalker]

I think the populations are strong, if not rising. If guys got their 5 point season then in 5 years they'd want a 4 point season etc etc.
Its like anything, people get something and after they forgot about the times they had wished for what they already now have, its no longer good enough and the cycle continues.
I think a lot of people think the size of an antler is always a general depiction of how old that animal is, so people seem to think that there arent enough "mature" elk.
They'd be amazed to learn that many 6 point elk shot are 3 years old or younger, sometimes two.
I know a guy who shot a 6x6 and sent the tooth for analysis and it was a young, 2 year old bull.
Hunt harder or change locations.

I don't think the system needs to change until/if the population starts to decline.
Why fix what is not broken ?


Now guiding territorys, alien hunter species licenses, alloted tags for those previously mentioned and our general leh system is a whole different, sour story.
Why not focus and act on that ?

Allen50; I dont agree one bit with the fact that rifle hunters wound more from 500 yards.
First off, 8 out of 10 guys' idea of 500 yards is maybe 300-350 yards max on a rangefinder and those that do wing that shot, don't practice. I'd imagine 90% of those shots are clear misses.
Touchy topic yes, but its true.
I have personally seen more guys guff bow/crossbow shots than rifle shots (one buck recovered a week later due to a poor angled single lung shot, and one minimally penetrated elk on bone and seen alive at a later date.)
Now I'm not saying rifles are more effective. I spend more time with a bow in hand than rifle and had 120 hours chasing elk with my bow and 24 hours with my rifle this year so this is an unbiased opinion of both.
On a whole, the average weekend archer is in less of a position to be shooting past 30 yards in a real time environment with natural deflections, shortage of breath and angle compensation, than any guy thats only cycled a box of shells through his rifle once before his annual trip.
But of course that is my opinion as that is yours and both are perfectly fine!

[Ddog]

ok now you have done it EASTKOOT,
your opening statement is the most outrageous absurd thing i have ever had the mis fortune of reading, its obvious that you dis agree with bow hunters but to say something of that nature is ridiculous, now that you did say it though just let me comment on a few things that i personally have witnessed this year not to mention the last couple of years here in the EK. to say that bowhunters do nothing but disturb elk and wound them and chase them around is a very idiotic thing to say, i have seen way more wounded elk by guns than by bow, i have come across 4, YES 4 killed 5 point bulls this year , and have had at least 5 people tell me they have found 1 or 2 aswell, BY GUN HUNTERS!!. there are way more guns out there chasing and scaring elk than there is bows. i have reported 2 dead cow elk SHOT BY A TRIGGER HAPPY GUN HUNTER that probably couldnt find a legal bull so he/she thought it would be a good idea to eliminate a cow, now i havent found and dead or wounded elk in the bow seasons although i am sure they are out there because it happens.
but to be so ignorant to say what you had the gall to say is sickening. perhaps you should get off you high horse and get with the times, there are more bow hunters out there every year and the government should open special seasons for bowhunting, and special areas for bow only.
i strongly dis agree with you EASTKOOT, and everything you said.
i am thouroughly disgusted by your comments.

[6616]

Chevy, if you live here and go out at all near the end of the season, imagine the number of elk that would be killed.. Do we really want that to happen, or should we just let them be for next years 6 point season..?? Leave things the way they are..Islander, we shouldn't be managing a population on the expectation of a bad winter [/quote by Eastkoot]


The migratory herds start showing up on the winter range in mid October, so we have to be very careful with late seasons. If we're going to shoot a few small bulls they might as well be homesteader elk, not migratory elk.

You'e also right Eastkoot that we shouldn't be managing expecting a bad winter, but don't you think we do have to manage to keep the population a little below carrying capacity. Considering the amount of winter range we've lost to forest ingrowth and the forage used by cattle we're quite possibly over carrying capacity right now and that's a dangerous situation, right now we may be stockpiling elk. Of course there's one quick and easy way to increase the capacity for elk dramatically, and that would be to get rid of the cattle, but I guess we all know that's not really going to happen.

At any rate, this is only a proposal at this time and it's open for discussion and input, and may not even happen. I think we need to evaluate the new youth/senior season harvest levels before any further decisions are made, with these new seasons we may be close to the sustainable harvest of cows and calves that we can allow. As you know it's very difficult to cause a herd decline or to control population growth shooting just bulls, but we do have to watch the antlerless harvest levels very carefully, we don't want to overdo it like we did in the late 1980's

If antler restriction changes are in fact made, they need to be very conservative and for a very short period, with the majority of the elk season still restricted to 6 pt bulls.

The bulls are out there right now, and there's lot's of big ones, more than ever before, despite the tales of woe we here from some of the guys, if anyone doesn't believe me take a drive on the Wardner/Fort Steel road in January. Elk hunting was never supposed to be easy. Everyone cannot expect to kill a 6 pt bull every year. I do know people that do, but those guys are exceptionally talented elk hunters, but we probably shouldn't be managing totally for trophy quality for these highly talented hunters either, especially if we support the Wildlife Branch recruitment/retention strategy.

One very big important point that you make Eastkoot is that we cannot screw up the good elk hunting we've got going on right now, we haven't had it so good since the early-eighties. Past mistakes have hurt badly and we have to watch that these do not reoccur and we lay-person hunters have to be on guard for that as well as the professional managers who may have forgotten what happened in '85, '86, and '87 since they're all pretty new to this region.

[alremkin]

Hm, well I'm going to chime in as being in favor of a 5 point minmum for bulls instead of 6. I quit hunting in the EK when they brought in the 6 point rule.

[Gateholio]

Maybe we need some 10 day 5 pt sesons?

[hunter1947]

Chevy, if you live here and go out at all near the end of the season, imagine the number of elk that would be killed.. Do we really want that to happen, or should we just let them be for next years 6 point season..?? Leave things the way they are..Islander, we shouldn't be managing a population on the expectation of a bad winter [/quote by Eastkoot]


The migratory herds start showing up on the winter range in mid October, so we have to be very careful with late seasons. If we're going to shoot a few small bulls they might as well be homesteader elk, not migratory elk.

You'e also right Eastkoot that we shouldn't be managing expecting a bad winter, but don't you think we do have to manage to keep the population a little below carrying capacity. Considering the amount of winter range we've lost to forest ingrowth and the forage used by cattle we're quite possibly over carrying capacity right now and that's a dangerous situation, right now we may be stockpiling elk. Of course there's one quick and easy way to increase the capacity for elk dramatically, and that would be to get rid of the cattle, but I guess we all know that's not really going to happen.

At any rate, this is only a proposal at this time and it's open for discussion and input, and may not even happen. I think we need to evaluate the new youth/senior season harvest levels before any further decisions are made, with these new seasons we may be close to the sustainable harvest of cows and calves that we can allow. As you know it's very difficult to cause a herd decline or to control population growth shooting just bulls, but we do have to watch the antlerless harvest levels very carefully, we don't want to overdo it like we did in the late 1980's

If antler restriction changes are in fact made, they need to be very conservative and for a very short period, with the majority of the elk season still restricted to 6 pt bulls.

The bulls are out there right now, and there's lot's of big ones, more than ever before, despite the tales of woe we here from some of the guys, if anyone doesn't believe me take a drive on the Wardner/Fort Steel road in January. Elk hunting was never supposed to be easy. Everyone cannot expect to kill a 6 pt bull every year. I do know people that do, but those guys are exceptionally talented elk hunters, but we probably shouldn't be managing totally for trophy quality for these highly talented hunters either, especially if we support the Wildlife Branch recruitment/retention strategy.

One very big important point that you make Eastkoot is that we cannot screw up the good elk hunting we've got going on right now, we haven't had it so good since the early-eighties. Past mistakes have hurt badly and we have to watch that these do not reoccur and we lay-person hunters have to be on guard for that as well as the professional managers who may have forgotten what happened in '85, '86, and '87 since they're all pretty new to this region. Very good post 6616 ,very well spoken and so true.

[hunter1947]

What i have seen since the six point season was implemented is a great increase of elk. There are more six points out there then going back to the 80ties. And as for bulls being five points or less the numbers are a way higher then in the mid 80ties to late 90ties. The wild life branch did the right thing when they introduced 6 point season at the start of 1999. Now they the wildlife branch have there hands full to control the bull to cow racial in order to keep a healthy herd growing. And yes you are very right 6616 when you mentioned about the cattle eating up the habitat. What can we do about it ,O in my books. What i have seen is that the cattle are there in elk country ,but they are down at lower elevations ,so that really helps the elk out a lot ,they the elk just move to higher elevations or other places in order to get into better habitat. In the winter when snow is deep in the mountains and the elk move down to lower elevations ,well then that is a different story. I have seen were farmers have put up 8 foot fences all around there farm land at the low elevation in order to keep the habitat penned in ,this keeps the elk out and allows the cattle to feed from the farmers feed they give them. I myself did not get a six point elk this year when hunting in the EK for 5 weeks ,but i will tell you something there was not two days that went buy that i was not into elk. I saw more elk this year in a time frame of a week then in years. Yes EK wildlife branch ,keep up the good work ,you are definitely going in the right way http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/images/icons/icon14.gif.

[Seeadler]

And yes you are very right 6616 when you mentioned about the cattle eating up the habitat. What can we do about it ,O in my books.

Be careful what you wish for. Removing cattle from crown land will only hasten the subdivision of existing ranches. Resulting in a lot of prime wildlife habitat being lost so that some Calgreedian can have a weekend getaway.

[KodiakHntr]

I used to hunt the Kootenays a bunch for elk when I lived in Cranbrook and Creston. And definately the numbers went up, way up since the implementation. A number of things helped this, not just the six rule though, good winters, habitat regeneration through burning, etc.

That said however, there are getting to be an awful lot of really good 5 points kicking around that will never be 6's. So maybe its time to do like Region 7b did with the mule deer and drop it a tine.

[brotherjack]

why do we have to kill something every year for it to be a good season??

Ummmm... because the primary/only reason a lot of us hunt is to put meat in the freezer. Don't get me wrong - I don't judge a day's hunt by whether or not I killed something or not - but I most certainly judge the entire season based on how full my freezer is (or not).

[Islandeer]

Exactly Brotherjack, we hunt to eat, big animals spell more meat. But big racks are cool too...8-)

[model88]

I used to hunt the Kootenays a bunch for elk when I lived in Cranbrook and Creston. And definately the numbers went up, way up since the implementation. A number of things helped this, not just the six rule though, good winters, habitat regeneration through burning, etc.

That said however, there are getting to be an awful lot of really good 5 points kicking around that will never be 6's. So maybe its time to do like Region 7b did with the mule deer and drop it a tine.


OMG..... bring in a 5 point season and watch the slaughter begin:!:

Guys give your heads a shake, extended bow seasons right when the bulls are bacheloring up searching for food, 5 point season during the last part of the rut when those satalite bulls are looking for a stray cow:!:

What we have now is the best elk hunting for "mature" bull elk around. Talk to somebody from Alberta, they would love to see a 6 point season.

But opinions are like a#$holes....everybody has one:razz:

[brotherjack]

OMG..... bring in a 5 point season and watch the slaughter begin:!:

What we have now is the best elk hunting for "mature" bull elk around.

Yeah, well, some of us are highly in favour of letting the slaughter begin so we can fill our freezers, and think hunting "mature" bull elk is just some kind of macho trophy/sport hunting thing which we could care less about. I don't hunt for sport - I hunt for food, and I'm far from alone in that view.

:)

[6616]

I agree Hunter1947, kudus to the EK wildlife managers for a job well done. I have been hunting elk and living in the EK since 1964 and we have it pretty doggone good right now....!

I also agree with model88, if we changed the entire bull season to 5pt the harvest would be very damaging to the elk population. A one week 5pt season for the last week of the regular season might be a better idea than the 3pt proposal. I wouldn't want to see it in the rut though, I think the harvest might be just too high.

[Everett]

Brother Jack has it right I hunt for food first antlers second. And I'm not some sour puss who didn't get anything this year I shot the required 6 point but honestly would have prefered a three or four point because simply they are alot more tender. Antlers are tough eating.
For me hunting is meat first sport second. I don't have a problem with trophy hunting I am personaly trophy hunting whitetails this year but only because I have an Elk, Mule deer and a Moose in my freezer. Setting regulations to support trophy hunting in my opinion is diservice to jo average hunter (also known as the tax payer) who realy only wants good meat for his family.

[tmarschall]

Hunter1947... I am afraid you have given credit where credit was NOT due. More than likely, the elk herds have increased in the EK "IN SPITE" of the 6 point season, not because of it. The fires from a few years ago are probably responsible for a recent surge in populations. Like some poeple in here have said.... the 6-point season supports only the trophy hunters, residents are restricted from putting meat on their tables. Elk herds can and do flourish without 6-point restrictions, the game managers just have to "change" their beneficiaries.... and that will not be easy. Without some kind of change, only the elk herds and resident hunters will be the only losers.

[hunter1947]

Hunter1947... I am afraid you have given credit where credit was NOT due. More than likely, the elk herds have increased in the EK "IN SPITE" of the 6 point season, not because of it. The fires from a few years ago are probably responsible for a recent surge in populations. Like some poeple in here have said.... the 6-point season supports only the trophy hunters, residents are restricted from putting meat on their tables. Elk herds can and do flourish without 6-point restrictions, the game managers just have to "change" their beneficiaries.... and that will not be easy. Without some kind of change, only the elk herds and resident hunters will be the only losers. I disagree with the fire issue thing. Were there has been a fire ,do you think every elk in the EK are going to be on the few burns that took place years ago ,NO i don't think so. The en cress on the elk population is because of the 6 point implementation in my books ,your not getting all the new reincrupment bulls being shot off ,a hi percentage of them will become sixes or better. And as far as the residents hunters go as being the loose rs ,i don't except that theory. They or me have that same chance as anyone out there to fill there table with elk meat. As for ho should get the credit for the increase of the elk ,it should go in my books to the wildlife branch ,if they hadn't implemented the change in the point restrictions in the 1999 season ,the number of elk in the EK would be to a low count right now. Then the wildlife branch would have to put the elk onto a LEH draw ,just like they did in the WK.

[KodiakHntr]

I'm not old enough to remember, was there ever a general open season in the West Kootenays?

As to a 5 point rule, I merely suggested that perhaps it's time to thin some of them out. I personally have seen some boomer mature 5 points that will never make six. And there is a good chance that their offspring won't either. So in ten years, what are you going to have...A whack of elk to be sure, but fewer 6 point bulls. And I'm pretty sure I wasn't advocating it during the rut, nor was I suggesting going back to the 3 point season.

[hunter1947]

Brother Jack has it right I hunt for food first antlers second. And I'm not some sour puss who didn't get anything this year I shot the required 6 point but honestly would have prefered a three or four point because simply they are alot more tender. Antlers are tough eating.
For me hunting is meat first sport second. I don't have a problem with trophy hunting I am personaly trophy hunting whitetails this year but only because I have an Elk, Mule deer and a Moose in my freezer. Setting regulations to support trophy hunting in my opinion is diservice to jo average hunter (also known as the tax payer) who realy only wants good meat for his family.
If you want to fill your freezers up ,then go buy a half side of beef. Look at it this way ,just keep a log on how much you spend for the season on gas ,and wear and tear on you truck when hunting for game animals. At the end of the hunting season if you totaled all your bills up , you could of put two beef in your freezers and had meat for the entire year ,rather then having nothing to show for it. It's just a bonus to be able to hunt the allusive bull elk ,and if you get one ,it's a bone is.

[hunter1947]

I'm not old enough to remember, was there ever a general open season in the West Kootenays?

As to a 5 point rule, I merely suggested that perhaps it's time to thin some of them out. I personally have seen some boomer mature 5 points that will never make six. And there is a good chance that their offspring won't either. So in ten years, what are you going to have...A whack of elk to be sure, but fewer 6 point bulls. And I'm pretty sure I wasn't advocating it during the rut, nor was I suggesting going back to the 3 point season.
I don't believe once a five always a five ,prove it to me ????.

[brotherjack]

The en cress on the elk population is because of the 6 point implementation in my books

I disagree - I think the six point season no doubt helped things along towards recovery (more bulls = more breeding = more calves), but reality is this: The winterkill of 96 (or somewhere around in there), along with all the cow/calf LEH's is what decimated the populations, not bull harvest by hunters. So then, logic follows that the lack of a serious winterkill in a lot of years (and the low numbers cow/calf LEH's issued until recently) would have way more to do with population numbers being on the rise than the bull harvest reduction that could be directly attributed to the six point season - other than insofar as the herd was in serious trouble, and having more breeding bulls was a Good Thing(tm) for helping out to produce more elk.

The elk herd is no longer in trouble (in fact, they're becoming a nuisance in a lot of areas). Different times need different rules.

Just IMHO, of course. :)

[6616]

It's my belief that it takes more than 10 or 15 years to select out the 6pt gene and promote the 5pt gene to the point where there will be a whack of 5 pts that will never be 6pts or will ever have 6pt offspring. Don't forget half the genetics is passed on from the mother.

Mild winters, a decline in predator populations and eco-system retoration (habitat enhancement) have definitly all played a role in the elk comeback but the 6pt regulation was the basis of the 1999 - 2004 elk management plan as was the termination of antlerless hunts during the 90,s and early 2000s which was probably the most important factor (populations are primarily controlled by the amount of cows killed), and this overall strategy worked. The wildlife Branch deserves Kudus because this strategy was not widely accepted and was very controversial during 1998 discussions, but the Branch had the balls to go ahead and do the right thing in spite of the criticism.


There's also no doubt that the Plumbob and Moyie fires created some good habitat as well, but considering the rate of forest ingrowth and encroachment, the exclusion fences, other sources of habitat alienation, there is still less winter range habitat available to elk now then there was in the mid-eighties, so a safe population target cannot be as high as it once was.

There are a few other reasons not mentioned that favor the implementation of a short (one week) 5pt or 3pt GOS.

(1) The ranchers are making a lot of noise about too many elk and they have a strong lobby, if we don't react they may politically become too influential in wildlife management. We need to be the ones to stabilize the elk population because if we leave it to the ranchers they're apt to go too far in their own best interests.
(2) Elk may be over carrying capacity right now and one cannot stockpile wildlife, a hard winter will kill them off sooner or later, so we might as well harvest them. Remeber that if a population is over carrying capacity a winter die-off could impact a huge percentage of the herd, not just the excess.
(3) Three point bulls are usually yearlings and have a high natural mortality rate so harvesting them is more compensatory than additive, that is, the kill may not represent a direct reduction in population, but instead may represent increased survival chances for other members of the population.
(4) It will be a great benefit to the government hunter recruitment/retention strategy. This should be important to us because the more hunters there are, the stronger our lobby will be in Victoria, more money will be available for management and conservation, etc.

A one week 3 pt season could probably be in the rut because those that harvest these elk will no longer be able to continue hunting elk and eventually shoot a 6pt. It could thus increase the survivability of mature prime breeding age bulls.

A 5pt season cannot be in the rut. Most 5 pt bulls are 2 1/2 or 3 1/2 years old and represent 6pt recruitment and we should not harvest too many of them. Unlike 3 pts, 5 pts are very active during the rut, hunting them during the rut would almost wipe them out every year, they are just too vulnerable since they're mostly over-anxious, stupid, over-sexed satellite bulls and are just too easy to hunt. A 5pt season could work towards the end of the season, but we're better off shooting a small number of 2pts due to the reasons stated in point 3 above.

These are my opinions only.
6616

[6616]

I disagree - I think the six point season no doubt helped things along towards recovery (more bulls = more breeding = more calves), but reality is this: The winterkill of 96 (or somewhere around in there), along with all the cow/calf LEH's is what decimated the populations, not bull harvest by hunters. So then, logic follows that the lack of a serious winterkill in a lot of years (and the low numbers cow/calf LEH's issued until recently) would have way more to do with population numbers being on the rise than the bull harvest reduction that could be directly attributed to the six point season - other than insofar as the herd was in serious trouble, and having more breeding bulls was a Good Thing(tm) for helping out to produce more elk.

The elk herd is no longer in trouble (in fact, they're becoming a nuisance in a lot of areas). Different times need different rules.

Just IMHO, of course. :)

I agee with this 100%. Poulation control cannot be accomplished by haresting just bulls. One point however is that in 1985 the bulls ratio was down to about 10 or 15 bulls per 100 cows and it may have been having an impact on the success of the rut, so I think the 6pt regulation helped a lot.

The first year on 6pt we only harvested about 300 bulls in the EK. Today we're harvesting 900 plus some antlerless elk as well. The historic high in the 70's and 80's was 1700 bulls in one particular year, 1100 to 1300 in average years, and this was under a 3pt antler regulation with a much longer season. Being able to harvest 900 6pt bulls in a month long season in an area as small as the EK is a rermarkable achievement, the "good old days" is right now!

[KodiakHntr]

I don't believe once a five always a five ,prove it to me ????.
The seven year old 5 point I arrowed last year...

[Fisher-Dude]

There are lots of theorists here, but two points have been overlooked.

In the 80's, we had TWICE the number of hunters that we have now. And we had 3 point all season, and sustainable hunts. And we had GOS bull moose hunts that ran concurrent with elk seasons.

Also, let's remember that the 6 point rule was brought in to rebuild the herd, which has now happened. The original study that promoted the implementation of the 6 point season was very clear that this was NOT a permanent solution and that in the longer term, it will damage the herd. Likewise, LEH moose seasons were brought in to help rebuild the herds. At 35:1 odds, you won't be hunting a region 4 moose, even with high moose populations again.

Now, we are sitting on our hands with record high elk and moose populations, half the hunters, and still have declining hunter numbers. I ask you, WHAT GOOD ARE HIGH UNGULATE POPULATIONS THAT WE AREN'T ALLOWED TO HUNT???

[Everett]

If you want to fill your freezers up ,then go buy a half side of beef. Look at it this way ,just keep a log on how much you spend for the season on gas ,and wear and tear on you truck when hunting for game animals. At the end of the hunting season if you totaled all your bills up , you could of put two beef in your freezers and had meat for the entire year ,rather then having nothing to show for it. It's just a bonus to be able to hunt the allusive bull elk ,and if you get one ,it's a bone is.
If your driving to the Ek from the Island or the lower mainland your right . But in our case it cost about 30 dollars in gas for our Elk find me a side of beef for that cost. (I don't actualy like beef:smile:horrible stuff).
I personaly am not the poster boy for cheap subsistance hunting as I have taken 2 trips this year to hunt. My moose cost me just about a hundred bucks in gas. Thats with two people splitting gas. But to destroy my own argument my first trip this year cost me a clutch and a tranfer case.
But my real point is for a lot of people in this province who live close to what they hunt game meat is the cheapest option and I believe those people not the trophy hunters should be getting first consideration.

[325]

Hi All,

I think all hunters are sport hunters. The meat is aweseome, and I love it, but I also love the thrill of the hunt. If there was no thrill to hunting, I would simply purchase a half a beef and be done with it. For most of us that would be the cheaper option than the fuel, ATVs, time off work we take to go hunting. I would say anybody who says they don't hunt for sport, and soley for the meat is full of sh!t.

Most of us love to be outdoors anyway...the meat is just a bonus.

JP

[brotherjack]

I think all hunters are sport hunters. The meat is aweseome, and I love it, but I also love the thrill of the hunt. If there was no thrill to hunting, I would simply purchase a half a beef and be done with it. For most of us that would be the cheaper option than the fuel, ATVs, time off work we take to go hunting. I would say anybody who says they don't hunt for sport, and soley for the meat is full of sh!t.

Most of us love to be outdoors anyway...the meat is just a bonus.

JP


I never said I don't enjoy hunting. But let's see here, for me. Hrmmm... no quad, no time off work, no $50,000 truck, no high dollar clothes, very little gas (good hunting spots within 20km of home, costs about $4 gas for a day trip to the bush). My average spending on a hunting season is about $500, for which I usually get a couple hundred pounds of the finest meat on planet earth (something beef definitely is not). That seems like a pretty good deal to me. :)

I should also note, that you're right - I do love the outdoors - but not so much that I'd wake up at 4:00AM and hike alone in the dark for an hour or two with 30 pounds of gear on my back through bear/cougar country just for the fun of it.

So, no, the meat is not "just a bonus" to me, it's the reason I hunt. If I didn't think my odds were really really good that I'd fill my freezer in a given season, I'd probably stop tomorrow. If I just wanted a bit of excitement, hunting with a camera is just as much fun, and if anything, more challenging than hunting with a gun (gotta get the light right, the angle right, a good clear view of the critter, focus, compose the shot, etc.)

Believe what you will, but that's the truth as I see it.

[KodiakHntr]

The biggest reason I hunt meat is too take responsibility for the food that I eat. Anyone can buy a steak at the market, fewer people can look into those soft brown eyes as the light fades from them.

I wouldn't care if it cost me $10/lb, I'd still eat elk meat over beef any day.

[threedhunter]

gents, we are all HUNTERS at first, what we choose to use as a tool to hunt with is a pesonal choice. if we keep fighting about who should or shouldn't use whatever tool to hunt with , we won't have any seasons left as the anti's jump on numbers and use them against us. it all started when we had to declare if we bowhunt on our licences. yes that info as far as # of who hunts with what is publicly available. check on it .so heres my 2 cents worth, we have in canada some of the worlds best peapl,e to get info from on animal management, we and our moe personal need to pay heed to wat these gurus tell us. reduce your cow/doe ratio to about 1 bull to 3or 4 cows yor bull quality will go up , your herds will be healthier, and larger . dr ceist is a canadian biologist in calgary, he travels all over , some states have listened and have made changes , improving #'s and size of animals. role models we need for the education of hunters , arguments we don't need . opinions are exactly that,lets at least understand that moe staff are trying to increase animal #'s without reducing hunting opportunities.i am not a biologist as i expect most of us here are not either, so lets support any opportunities that the moe can make to afford us more days afield and chances at legal game.

[hunter1947]

I disagree - I think the six point season no doubt helped things along towards recovery (more bulls = more breeding = more calves), but reality is this: The winterkill of 96 (or somewhere around in there), along with all the cow/calf LEH's is what decimated the populations, not bull harvest by hunters. So then, logic follows that the lack of a serious winterkill in a lot of years (and the low numbers cow/calf LEH's issued until recently) would have way more to do with population numbers being on the rise than the bull harvest reduction that could be directly attributed to the six point season - other than insofar as the herd was in serious trouble, and having more breeding bulls was a Good Thing(tm) for helping out to produce more elk.

The elk herd is no longer in trouble (in fact, they're becoming a nuisance in a lot of areas). Different times need different rules.

Just IMHO, of course. :) Yes i do agree with the winter of 96 ,that did have an impact on the elk as for the declination was rolling dawn for elk at the same time.

[hunter1947]

The seven year old 5 point I arrowed last year...
That doesnt mean a thing ,it might be a 6x5 the next year ,or a 6x7. The only way you can prove this theory to me ,or others is if a the animal has to be radio collard and is monitored for it's entire life. :rolleyes:.

[tmarschall]

That doesnt mean a thing ,it might be a 6x5 the next year. The only way you can prove this theory to me is if a the animal has to be radio collard and is monitored for it's entire life. :rolleyes:.

Wayne... you hit a good point here. Has anyone ever heard of a study on elk point genetics? I know they have done extensive studies on white tails down here where they have shown that they can breed the antlers off of a buck(meaning the buck even when mature will not have the genes to grow antlers). From what I have seen and read here, there is only evidence to suggest that elk genes can control points in a similar way. (for example the guy who posted that he arrowed a 5-point bull that was 7 years old)But without hard scientific facts to back it up, it is only speculation.

[KodiakHntr]

Thats true, there is only speculation. However, after having spent the last 12 years living in prime kootenay elk country, hunting the same parcels of land, you start to get to recognize some animals.

For example, the only reason I managed to arrow that 5 point is that we had watched him for the last 5 years. Some critters are just recognizable, I'm sure a lot of the guys that hunt over feeders in Texas will attest to this.

I have a few print photo's from each year of this bull, and other than he got physically bigger, nothing else changed. The entire time we watched him on private land he was a 5.

So for me personally, that has been enough. You watch bulls grow up over the years, and they never make 6, you start to believe that maybe they will never make 6.

[Fisher-Dude]

I agree that some never make 6. This bull was a 290 class 5er that I watched this fall...a prime animal with a large harem that was much larger than the other bulls I saw (some of which were sixes), both in rack size and body size, that was not legal for harvest. His bugle was deep and raspy, typical of a herd bull. Will he ever make a 6, being that he is only a 5 at this age? What antler genetics is he passing on?



http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e70/Fisher-Dude/Hpim0268Trim.jpg

[model88]

Thats true, there is only speculation. However, after having spent the last 12 years living in prime kootenay elk country, hunting the same parcels of land, you start to get to recognize some animals.

For example, the only reason I managed to arrow that 5 point is that we had watched him for the last 5 years. Some critters are just recognizable, I'm sure a lot of the guys that hunt over feeders in Texas will attest to this.

I have a few print photo's from each year of this bull, and other than he got physically bigger, nothing else changed. The entire time we watched him on private land he was a 5.

So for me personally, that has been enough. You watch bulls grow up over the years, and they never make 6, you start to believe that maybe they will never make 6.

OK, so you watched ONE bull who never grew a bigger rack.....SO WHAT. Find me a study documenting 100's of animals then you might make a believer out of me. The 6 point season has to stay if we want quality elk hunting for mature bull elk.

[Fisher-Dude]

OK, so you watched ONE bull who never grew a bigger rack.....SO WHAT. Find me a study documenting 100's of animals then you might make a believer out of me. The 6 point season has to stay if we want quality elk hunting for mature bull elk.

Find me a study documenting that the 6 point season has to stay if we want quality elk hunting for mature bull elk. The study recommending the 6 point season upon which the season was based was CLEAR that it was only for rebuilding the herd, and would be DETRIMENTAL to the herd if used over the long run, so you better not quote that one.

Who wants to shoot trophy sized 6 point bull elk? NOT the 90%+ hunters in BC who are first and foremost meat hunters. How do you define "quality elk hunting"? Is a meat hunter shooting a 2 1/2 year old 4 point bull with his kids not having a quality elk hunt? I think he would say he is.

How can you say that we would not have good elk hunting when we had TWICE the number of hunters pursuing 3 point bulls with a sustainable hunt than we do with the current restrictions and half the hunters?

[hunter1947]

Thats true, there is only speculation. However, after having spent the last 12 years living in prime kootenay elk country, hunting the same parcels of land, you start to get to recognize some animals.

For example, the only reason I managed to arrow that 5 point is that we had watched him for the last 5 years. Some critters are just recognizable, I'm sure a lot of the guys that hunt over feeders in Texas will attest to this.

I have a few print photo's from each year of this bull, and other than he got physically bigger, nothing else changed. The entire time we watched him on private land he was a 5.

So for me personally, that has been enough. You watch bulls grow up over the years, and they never make 6, you start to believe that maybe they will never make 6.
What is the percentage of always a five ,compared to a 6x5 or bigger ??????. You tell me.:roll:

[wsm]

i have never hunted elk, but have been hunting for a few years now. i step on more elk now then i ever have. by accident of course but it's true. the seasons must be working

[model88]

Oh all right, lets lift the point restriction, make it 3 point or better again..............and within a matter of a few years watch the elk population head too where it was before.

I have hunted elk for over 20 years now and have never seen elk hunting like it is now. Its no different than the 4 point mule deer restriction, we now have bucks like never before.

Personally, if you are hunting for meat, you are wasting a crap load of money. Go buy a side of beef, its alot cheaper.

Like I said before, just an opinion, you are never going to make everyone happy, but one thing I notice more of now, alot more people are making the long trip here to hunt elk, so something must be drawing them here, must be the lack of elk or maybe the lack of 6 points.

[brotherjack]

Again, some of you guys are assuming that it was the lack of a six point season that decimated the herd in the first place, and you're assuming that it was the six point restriction that has resurrected the herd numbers. There are factors involved in both events other than the six point restriction (winterkill and cow/calf kill) that had far MORE TO DO with both events than the six point restriction did/does.

Just my $0.02.

[Fisher-Dude]

Oh all right, lets lift the point restriction, make it 3 point or better again..............and within a matter of a few years watch the elk population head too where it was before.

I have hunted elk for over 20 years now and have never seen elk hunting like it is now. Its no different than the 4 point mule deer restriction, we now have bucks like never before.

Personally, if you are hunting for meat, you are wasting a crap load of money. Go buy a side of beef, its alot cheaper.

Like I said before, just an opinion, you are never going to make everyone happy, but one thing I notice more of now, alot more people are making the long trip here to hunt elk, so something must be drawing them here, must be the lack of elk or maybe the lack of 6 points.

I've hunted them over 30 years. And right in the same valley where you are seeing all the elk. And we had twice the number of hunters, and a 3 point rule, and the herds were thriving, even over-populating to the point where Mr DiMarche let his $hitload of cow/calf permits out to deal with the high numbers of elk. So, with twice the hunters, and a 3 point rule, we had elk raiding farms because the population was too high. And that is the SAME scenario we have today, except for having only half the hunters.

And people think we NEED 6 point rules - baloney!

[hunter1947]

Oh all right, lets lift the point restriction, make it 3 point or better again..............and within a matter of a few years watch the elk population head too where it was before.

I have hunted elk for over 20 years now and have never seen elk hunting like it is now. Its no different than the 4 point mule deer restriction, we now have bucks like never before.

Personally, if you are hunting for meat, you are wasting a crap load of money. Go buy a side of beef, its alot cheaper.

Like I said before, just an opinion, you are never going to make everyone happy, but one thing I notice more of now, alot more people are making the long trip here to hunt elk, so something must be drawing them here, must be the lack of elk or maybe the lack of 6 points.
I have hunted elk in the same place in the EK for 37 years now and the last few years i have really noticed a big increase in elk ,they are coming back strong as when i remember when it was hot for elk ,back in the early 90ties. Someone out there is doing something right ????????????????,the snow fall of 1996 did a big number on them then ,but i still noticed that the population was dropping like a rock before the big snow fall.

[KodiakHntr]

What is the percentage of always a five ,compared to a 6x5 or bigger ??????. You tell me.:roll:

Percentage wise who cares...All I am trying to say is that perhaps we are altering the genetics of the herds. Maybe we are, maybe we aren't and its all just coincidence...

Or as you yourself are indicating, the MoE is doing SOMETHING "right" and increasing numbers...The same MoE that changed the Muley 4 point restriction in 7b to a 3 point restriction because they are seeing an awful pile of mature 3 points that will never make 4, and they are changing the genetic makeup of the species there.

[hunter1947]

Percentage wise who cares...All I am trying to say is that perhaps we are altering the genetics of the herds. Maybe we are, maybe we aren't and its all just coincidence...

Or as you yourself are indicating, the MoE is doing SOMETHING "right" and increasing numbers...The same MoE that changed the Muley 4 point restriction in 7b to a 3 point restriction because they are seeing an awful pile of mature 3 points that will never make 4, and they are changing the genetic makeup of the species there. I care """"and
someone is doing something right ,and ho is it ????. I have hunted elk long enough to know that the elk in the EK is as good as it was years back ,something has changed ????.:lol:.

[KodiakHntr]

Dunno, but if you read an earlier post I made you might realize that I'm not saying the MoE isn't doing a good job.

And you aren't the only one who has hunted elk for a long time.

But perhaps its a combination of factors, not just good management.

My point is merely that the MoE has changed tine restrictions in the past in the face of anecdotal evidence by hunters, maybe its time to do it again.

[tmarschall]

OK, so you watched ONE bull who never grew a bigger rack.....SO WHAT. Find me a study documenting 100's of animals then you might make a believer out of me. The 6 point season has to stay if we want quality elk hunting for mature bull elk.

I haven't read the study that supported the implementation of the 6-point season, but I am glad someone has quoted it as saying it is only a short term solution and that maintaining the season will be detremental to the herd. Has wildlife branch forgotten about this part of the study?.... or are they being influenced by external forces to maintain this practice to produce more "quality trophy elk"? something which the 6-point restriction might do in the short term before the detremental effects show up.

Several years ago when I talked to elk managers in Montana, they said the same thing about the 6-point season. In the long run, it will damage the herd. Sadly they did not quote me the study the claim was based on, but I can imagine it was not based on speculation and gut feelings.

[Fisher-Dude]

I care """"and
someone is doing something right ,and ho is it ????. I have hunted elk long enough to know that the elk in the EK is as good as it was years back ,something has changed ????.:lol:.

Yeah here's what has changed:

1.) God has given us 10 years of relatively mild winters in the EK.
2.) God has given us several big forest fires in the lodgepole pine forests to create some new, good elk habitat.
3.) Dopes in the MoE have given us restrictive antler configurations for far too long, as the herds have fully recovered from the bad winters of 96/97, and this has KILLED off our hunter numbers to the point where our sport and way of life is threatened.

The MoE did something right after the bad winters to rebuild the herds. Now, they are doing something wrong by leaving the restrictive seasons in place for too long (remember how they left the liberal cow/calf seasons in place far too long before?).

Therefore, elk won't be extinct, but hunters will.

[hunter1947]

Dunno, but if you read an earlier post I made you might realize that I'm not saying the MoE isn't doing a good job.

And you aren't the only one who has hunted elk for a long time.

But perhaps its a combination of factors, not just good management.

My point is merely that the MoE has changed tine restrictions in the past in the face of anecdotal evidence by hunters, maybe its time to do it again.
I f there going to do anything about changing the elk regs ,they should have a short opening for Spike bulls ,i heard that 50% of the spikes don't make it into there third year. Don't have the season open up during the rut. Having the season out of the rut will allow the bulls to breed freely without being shot up. This will allow the heard bulls to do there breeding without being shot and pushed all over the country.

[KodiakHntr]

I f there going to do anything about changing the elk regs ,they should have a short opening for Spike bulls ,i heard that 50% of the spikes don't make it into there third year. Don't have the season open up during the rut. Having the season out of the rut will allow the bulls to breed freely without being shot up. This will allow the heard bulls to do there breeding without being shot and pushed all over the country.


If ANYTHING would kill off a whole bunch of elk, that would be it. I can only imagine what the slaughter would be like the first couple of years when all of the elk are pushed into the lowlands by snowfall...

Sure we have a season during the rut, but evidently, (and coincidentally from your own posted observations about expanding elk populations) the herd bulls are managing to breed some cows during this season, even with being pushed around.

Unless maybe these expanding elk herds are maybe being impregnated during alien abductions?

[hunter1947]

KodiakHntr you say a bunch of elk will be slaughtered ?????. I am talking about spikes only ,not two or better ,i did a research years back about spike bulls ,50% of all spikes die of natural causes in the winter months ,this survey was done buy MWB. Not all spikes would be killed for the one week season. This would also allow the meat hunters to put some elk on there tables for the year to come. I did not say to kill the spike-rs off during the winter months. They would have to have a week season for spikes in early Oct. You say some bulls will breed cows ??????. Why not let the heard bulls breed all the cows that can go into estrus when the early part of the season would be closed for hunting?????. Makes more sense to me ,i think if a person was to do there math there would be a lot more pregnant cows giving birth in Junehttp://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/images/icons/icon12.gif.

[GoatGuy]

Don't forget half the genetics is passed on from the mother.


:lol::lol::lol::lol:

[KodiakHntr]

I am talking about spikes only ,not two or better .

Ooop, sorry, thought you meant change the season dates as are, and put on a spike season in addition to having a 6point season when the elk were moving to winter range.

[6616]

Has wildlife branch forgotten about this part of the study?.... or are they being influenced by external forces to maintain this practice to produce more "quality trophy elk"? something which the 6-point restriction might do in the short term before the detremental effects show up.

I don't think they've forgotten considering their proposal for a short three point season.

[6616]

Don't have the season open up during the rut. Having the season out of the rut will allow the bulls to breed freely without being shot up. This will allow the heard bulls to do there breeding without being shot and pushed all over the country.[/quote]

There is no evidence that the success of the rut is being compromised by rut hunting, on the contgrary I'd guess it's not, considering the rapid expansion of elk numbers in recent years.

The main reason why most of the seasons are early, and the LEH antlerless season and the youth/senior GOS season are restricted to the low elevations, is because the Branch is trying to cull down the non-migratory component of the population that is responsible for most of the agricultural depredation and who also impact forage levels on winter ranges. The proposed short (one week) 4 pt GOS will probably be early, and could also be restricted to the low elevation x-zones for the same reason.

Winter range is getting heavily grazed by cattle all summer as well as being utilized by large numbers of non-migratory elk all summer, this is compromising the ability of that winter range to supply enough forage for the migratory herds during the winter. The "homesteader" elk are getting to be a liability to both ranchers and the main migratory elk popluations and I believe we should support the Ministry initiative to reduce that component of the elk population.

[Fisher-Dude]

My own theory on why there is such a high population of homesteader elk is that the upper elevations are at or above carrying capacity, so the homesteaders have to find range/feed at the lower elevations. Why else would wild animals put up with people, vehicles, dogs, etc except for that one big driving force - hunger.

The same situation is occurring with both species of deer in region 8, where many towns have high populations of deer year-round, and human-animal conflicts are increasing at an alarming rate. Of course, the regional biologist says he can't give us longer/less restrictive seasons, but then goes to the media crying about all the urban deer and the difficulty he faces finding a solution. :-|

[6616]

That is a strong possibility Fisher-Dude, especially when one considers the change in logging activity in the Trench tributaries the last decade or so.. In the 70s and 80s we were clearcutting those tributaries as fast as we could and creating vast amounts of summer elk habitat which the herd responded to. We don't do that anymore and all those old cutblocks are now too overgrown to support large numbers of elk. Maybe the Pine Beetle harvesting could change that to some extent.

Many people believe the heavy cow harvest of the late 80's took out too many old lead cows and the herds lost the leadership that led the migrations.

I've always wondered if part of it might also be due to the fact that during the early 90's when the population was at it's lowest there was lots of forage available in the main Trench and the elk thus had less incentive to migrate and maybe a whole new series of generations of non-migratory elk were born.

In 1998 Martin Jalkotsky did a study that indicated that 16% of the population was non-migratory at that time. Other studies have shown that this percentage is about normal. Seems all migratory herds have a small non-migratory component.

What do you think the percentage of the herd is now that is non-migratory?

The Kootenay Livestock Assn once claimed upwards of 35% or 10,000 to 11.000 homesteader elk. MOF in Cranbrook once said there were 7000 non-migratory elk which would be about 25%. I personally feel that about 5000 would be tops. I also don't think we should worry homesteader elk too much, except in the hard-hit agriculture areas. Even non-migratory elk are still a valuable resource.

The early stages of MOE-Carnbrook research into this is showing that they may not all be true non-migratory elk, that possibly a large number of them do migrate but much later than we expect, like not until late June or early July. Is this a responce to wolf predation, do the cows feel safer in the Trench until after the calves are born? Lots of unknowns, eh? more questions than answers, that's for sure!

[hunter1947]

My own theory on why there is such a high population of homesteader elk is that the upper elevations are at or above carrying capacity, so the homesteaders have to find range/feed at the lower elevations. Why else would wild animals put up with people, vehicles, dogs, etc except for that one big driving force - hunger.

The same situation is occurring with both species of deer in region 8, where many towns have high populations of deer year-round, and human-animal conflicts are increasing at an alarming rate. Of course, the regional biologist says he can't give us longer/less restrictive seasons, but then goes to the media crying about all the urban deer and the difficulty he faces finding a solution. :-|
One of the main reason homesteader elk move to lower elevations is because the snow drives them down. I talked to phil bradshaw a registered trapper that has a trap line in the EK in the same area i hunt. He said the place i hunt there will be 5 feet of snow on the ground in the early part of the new year. Thats not far from the town of cranbrook.