Access Restrictions, information checkpoints, etc.

[Rob Chipman]

BCWF is trying to gather some data on the extent and effect of access restrictions around the province.

We don't just want to know about examples of resident hunters or anglers being denied access, but also examples of people being allowed to access areas that they thought would be closed, but also those who changed their plans, people who were indeed denied access, people who may have gained access but then encountered any problems, leaving, anyone who had vehicles vandalized, and anyone who had interactions (positive, neutral or negative) with any individuals, corporations or First Nations governments, anywhere in the province.


Message me privately or post whatever you're comfortable posting. We aren't looking for anything specific - we just want intel about what occurred regarding access for hunting or angling in 2020. It's not just access restriction info we're looking for. Details about an information checkpoint that involved conversation but did not deny access would qualify, for example. Any info at all is appreciated.

Thanks!

[whitlers]

It didn't effect me personally but I did overlook Texas Creek this year as a potential early season spot due to the FN closure. I am not sure if that qualifies or if anything came out of that particular closure.

[Rymar]

I’ve also asked for more info about the Texas creek closure from the CO’s office and have heard nothing back on weather this is a legitimate closure or not. I was also personally effected when I tried to launch a boat at churn creek into the Fraser and there was a locked gated preventing access, on crown land.

[RyoTHC]

One of my moose hunting partners has a leh sheep draw he didn’t go on because the natives locally claimed the entire drainage was closed and it encompassed all his access points.

I’ll get more info and update !

[Walking Buffalo]

The BCWF should also look into how many years non-Indigenous hunters have accessed these lands now at risk of exclusion.
Since before the inclusion of B.C. into Canada?

There is a case to be made that non-Indigenous hunters now have legal standing to hunt on all non-Indian Reserve lands, regardless of who's "traditional" territory it was or is.

[REMINGTON JIM]

One of my moose hunting partners has a leh sheep draw he didn’t go on because the natives locally claimed the entire drainage was closed and it encompassed all his access points.

I’ll get more info and update !

Now that is VERY INTERESTING :shock: Looking forward to more info ! RJ
RJ

[Rob Chipman]

The BCWF should also look into how many years non-Indigenous hunters have accessed these lands now at risk of exclusion.
Since before the inclusion of B.C. into Canada?

There is a case to be made that non-Indigenous hunters now have legal standing to hunt on all non-Indian Reserve lands, regardless of who's "traditional" territory it was or is.

What would the point of doing that be? I don't understand what the argument that BCWF would make (presumably in court) is. That non-Indigenous people have the right to hunt on non-Indian Act reserve lands (and I'll assume you mean all non-private property in BC) ie, Crown land? How do you see that working?

(There isn't a need to look into how long non-Indigenous hunters have accessed these lands. That started as soon as non-Indigenous people arrived here. I think that is easily demonstrated. Before HBC and Nor'wester's made it to BC there were lots of Europeans on the coast, and all of it is documented).

That said, there is already a standing argument that non-Indigenous citizens of Canada have Magna Carta rights to access Crown land. (I can't make it off the top of my head, but I've seen it sketched out and it's not baseless).

I'm still not clear where you're going with this, though. BCWF has, at most, the ability to fund one or two small lawsuits. Those would have to be restricted to injunctions, I suspect. We just don't have enough funds to go further (unless resident hunters want to start a standalone, segregated, well funded war chest).

Anyway, at this stage we're looking for all aspects of access to traditional lands, whether it was allowed, partially restricted, totally restricted, or only feared that it would be restricted. Kaska Dena, for example, were reportedly going to do what Tahltan did, but in fact did not (you'll recall an Atlin local jumping on here and making that case last fall). Point being, just in the NW of the province we have 2 approaches that were 180 degrees apart from each other (at least as far as we know).

We need to figure out just what the access situation was/is.

This is incredibly important and I really need help form the forum on this. We're 7 months out from sheep, moose and some other seasons season starting. 8 months and just about everything else major opens. We can get organized now or we can wait until the last minute.

Clearly it's better to get organized now.

[Kootenay338]

I live in Elkford and we are starting to get hammered with more road closures. We have two main trunk roads that travel up to the elk lakes and it is said that this gives us too much km of road in our valley. Therefore they are now shutting down more of the side roads off the main trunk roads. We already have a lot of area closures and these new closures are going to make it harder and harder to recreate. Sadly none of the local user groups were not given a chance to have input until it was too late. It should also be noted that the area was reclaimed in a manner that makes it almost impossible to hike on

[ACE]

BCWF is trying to gather some data on the extent and effect of access restrictions around the province.

What exactly will come of this info you/BCWF gather? Not much was done by BCWF concerning G/O LEH quotas, gun restrictions, Govt. G-bear cancellations, etc., etc. . . . . . .
​Is this just a 'feel-good' paper shuffle around the round table?

[Keta1969]

What exactly will come of this info you/BCWF gather? Not much was done by BCWF concerning G/O LEH quotas, gun restrictions, Govt. G-bear cancellations, etc., etc. . . . . . .
​Is this just a 'feel-good' paper shuffle around the round table?

Jesus they get accused of doing nothing and harassed for trying to do something. Why not participate or not and see where it goes. I don't know of another organisation that is looking at this. Why not wait and see what comes out of it before sniping at them?

[ACE]

Jesus they get accused of doing nothing and harassed for trying to do something. Why not participate or not and see where it goes. I don't know of another organization that is looking at this. Why not wait and see what comes out of it before sniping at them?

​The question was asked . . . . . you may not like the way it was asked, but it deserves an answer.

[Rob Chipman]

Ace:

That made me chuckle.


You must be aware that a lot of people from all walks of life with all kinds of agendas monitor forums like this. Nothing is being kept secret, but there is a concept called "honesty with discretion". A public forum isn't the best place to share everything.

Big picture I don't think anyone is confused about what's going on with this information gathering. Access is a big issue. It's going to come up again. If we're going to deal with it we need to know the extent of the problem.

Is it all bad or is there some good?

Are all access restrictions the same, or do they come in different forms?

Are all reasons for access restrictions the same, or do they differ?

Are they all initiated by FNs, or are some done by corporations?

The more you look the more questions come up.


If you are a member, ping me directly through here or email me at rob@robchipman.net or call me at 604-230-4225. I'll make time for you. I appreciate any help you can offer.

[Onesock]

Thanx For doing this Rob

[rolllingbreakdown]

I don't have any firsthand knowledge of this, only heard the rumors of what was going on in region 6, which have already been posted here.

For my 2 cents though, I'm leery of more access restrictions that solely target hunters, but I'm certainly not opposed to more vehicle closures if they were enforced. It seems there's nowhere you cant drive a vehicle in some areas and roads everywhere. Its been well documented that roads lead to serious sedimentation issues in fish bearing streams. The best of us will continue to explore beyond the crowds. But the jackass hunters, and I think we all know there are some have no interest in walking further from the truck than they can throw their beer can.

Beyond that its not just the bottom of the barrel hunters but the offroaders too. I've lost count of how many boggy areas I saw destroyed by an atv going through, chewing it up and the next guy going a little bit wide, chewing that up and the next guy doing the same.

Even a restriction about keeping motorized vehicles on main lines only would help if it were enforced. I know its not most people but there seem to be lots of people who think that as long as theyre not tossing empties out the window everything is good.

[Walking Buffalo]

What would the point of doing that be? I don't understand what the argument that BCWF would make (presumably in court) is. That non-Indigenous people have the right to hunt on non-Indian Act reserve lands (and I'll assume you mean all non-private property in BC) ie, Crown land? How do you see that working?

(There isn't a need to look into how long non-Indigenous hunters have accessed these lands. That started as soon as non-Indigenous people arrived here. I think that is easily demonstrated. Before HBC and Nor'wester's made it to BC there were lots of Europeans on the coast, and all of it is documented).

That said, there is already a standing argument that non-Indigenous citizens of Canada have Magna Carta rights to access Crown land. (I can't make it off the top of my head, but I've seen it sketched out and it's not baseless).

I'm still not clear where you're going with this, though. BCWF has, at most, the ability to fund one or two small lawsuits. Those would have to be restricted to injunctions, I suspect. We just don't have enough funds to go further (unless resident hunters want to start a standalone, segregated, well funded war chest).

Anyway, at this stage we're looking for all aspects of access to traditional lands, whether it was allowed, partially restricted, totally restricted, or only feared that it would be restricted. Kaska Dena, for example, were reportedly going to do what Tahltan did, but in fact did not (you'll recall an Atlin local jumping on here and making that case last fall). Point being, just in the NW of the province we have 2 approaches that were 180 degrees apart from each other (at least as far as we know).

We need to figure out just what the access situation was/is.

This is incredibly important and I really need help form the forum on this. We're 7 months out from sheep, moose and some other seasons season starting. 8 months and just about everything else major opens. We can get organized now or we can wait until the last minute.

Clearly it's better to get organized now.



The point of doing it is to protect non-Indigenous hunter's ability to access land to hunt.




With 100+% of B.C. being claimed as Traditional Territory, without legal standing to access Traditional Territory, B.C. hunters will soon find that while their government will sell them hunting licences, there is no land that they can legally access to hunt.


Yes, taking this to court will be a big undertaking. Larger than any court case B.C. or Canadian hunters have ever done before.
But there is no alternative.
Without legal standing to access Land, hunting by non-Indigenous hunters will soon be at the whim of First Nation governments.


The access data the BWF is seeking to collect is important.
However, it it pointless unless the real concern is addressed.


It doesn't take a visionary to see the current direction of hunting access and wildlife management.
Currently, the path leads to the end of hunting in B.C by non-Indigenous people.
It is critical that a turn is made, regardless of how difficult that first step of the Path may be.


Remember how I constantly bugged people here to recognize the importance of the B.C. government declaring hunting and fishing as Essential?
These are the little things that must be written in stone then used to hammer those that seek to take away our Natural rights.
Developing the Legal documentation of historic land use by non-indigenous peoples are part of the hammer.

[IronNoggin]

... Remember how I constantly bugged people here to recognize the importance of the B.C. government declaring hunting and fishing as Essential?
These are the little things that must be written in stone then used to hammer those that seek to take away our Natural rights.
Developing the Legal documentation of historic land use by non-indigenous peoples are part of the hammer.

BINGO!! https://www.tnof.ca/styles/default/xenforo/smilies/Pozitive.gif

Very Well Said! And indeed something we best be paying rather serious attention to!!

Cheers,
Nog

[David]

Hey Rob...

You might want to look into how the Sunshine Coast Regional District (SCRD) is dealing with the Province and Sechelt Indian Band re: renaming places along the Sunshine Coast. In particular, the renaming of Madeira Park.

While technically not access, there are learning opportunities there.

[ACE]

Ace:
That made me chuckle.
The more you look the more questions come up.
If you are a member, ping me directly through here or email me at rob@robchipman.net or call me at 604-230-4225. I'll make time for you. I appreciate any help you can offer.

E-mail sent Rob.
Thank you for your kind and gracious offer.
Much appreciated.

[Rob Chipman]

"Remember how I constantly bugged people here to recognize the importance of the B.C. government declaring hunting and fishing as Essential?"

I brought that up in discussions with FLNRORD, because as many of you may know, there are laws and then there are regulations....

Last fall, when access restrictions became an issue, we argued that hunting and fishing had been deemed essential.

The government, at bureaucratic regulation level said "Oh yes, 100% correct. The devil, however, is in the details, and while hunting and fishing are essential, we've looked it over and we *consider* hunting and fishing that requires travel reverts into "recreation" and so therefore is not deemed essential".

As WB has pointed out, both in this post and earlier ones, we need to cement that advantage.



"Developing the Legal documentation of historic land use by non-indigenous peoples are part of the hammer."

Correct.

All that said, a lot of this starts with data. If you can swamp me with access data, good, bad, indifferent, FNs, corporate, whatever, please do it. If your buddy told you a story over beers, run him down and get details.

[.330 Dakota]

What would the point of doing that be? I don't understand what the argument that BCWF would make (presumably in court) is. That non-Indigenous people have the right to hunt on non-Indian Act reserve lands (and I'll assume you mean all non-private property in BC) ie, Crown land? How do you see that working?

(There isn't a need to look into how long non-Indigenous hunters have accessed these lands. That started as soon as non-Indigenous people arrived here. I think that is easily demonstrated. Before HBC and Nor'wester's made it to BC there were lots of Europeans on the coast, and all of it is documented).

That said, there is already a standing argument that non-Indigenous citizens of Canada have Magna Carta rights to access Crown land. (I can't make it off the top of my head, but I've seen it sketched out and it's not baseless).

I'm still not clear where you're going with this, though. BCWF has, at most, the ability to fund one or two small lawsuits. Those would have to be restricted to injunctions, I suspect. We just don't have enough funds to go further (unless resident hunters want to start a standalone, segregated, well funded war chest).

Anyway, at this stage we're looking for all aspects of access to traditional lands, whether it was allowed, partially restricted, totally restricted, or only feared that it would be restricted. Kaska Dena, for example, were reportedly going to do what Tahltan did, but in fact did not (you'll recall an Atlin local jumping on here and making that case last fall). Point being, just in the NW of the province we have 2 approaches that were 180 degrees apart from each other (at least as far as we know).

We need to figure out just what the access situation was/is.

This is incredibly important and I really need help form the forum on this. We're 7 months out from sheep, moose and some other seasons season starting. 8 months and just about everything else major opens. We can get organized now or we can wait until the last minute.

Clearly it's better to get organized now.

Not sure what info you are actually seeking, but we quit hunting Region 6 due to constant interactions with the Taltan and Kaska,,,our last trip was in 2019,,tried to go into the Cassier, and the Kaska drove in and asked us to leave,,we left, as we figured if we didnt they would burn our camp when we went out for the day,,,went up to just south of the Yukon Border,,same thing happened,,,spun around and went down to Tatogga,,camped at the resort,,hunted the rail grade and encountered the Taltan in there,,just got sick of the constant harassment, so we went to the Koots this past year

[net sync]

Is there interest in collecting data re FSRs that after being upgraded for industrial use were subsequently de activated and left in a considerable less usefull condition (at least in my view) with regards to use by recreational users, than they were before the industrial use ?

[Rob Chipman]

Is there interest in collecting data re FSRs that after being upgraded for industrial use were subsequently de activated and left in a considerable less usefull condition (at least in my view) with regards to use by recreational users, than they were before the industrial use ?


There is interest in that, but it's a prickly subject (and actually, all access issues are pretty prickly). Everyone likes roads that allows them to access more country because it just makes everything easier. At the same time roads demonstrably damage wildlife in a long list of ways.

I'm just speculating, but at some point we're probably going to have to put the lid on how many roads we have taking us into hunting and fishing areas, and then make sure that those roads remain open. Road hunters can hunt those roads and non-road hunters can use them to get to trailheads.

The responses I've received so far are pretty balanced across some sort of Indigenous initiated restriction (info through to full restriction), regular FSRs that are somehow restricted and private gates.

So, yes, I would like any intel on any access restriction.

[Rob Chipman]

Not sure what info you are actually seeking, but we quit hunting Region 6 due to constant interactions with the Taltan and Kaska,,,our last trip was in 2019,,tried to go into the Cassier, and the Kaska drove in and asked us to leave,,we left, as we figured if we didnt they would burn our camp when we went out for the day,,,went up to just south of the Yukon Border,,same thing happened,,,spun around and went down to Tatogga,,camped at the resort,,hunted the rail grade and encountered the Taltan in there,,just got sick of the constant harassment, so we went to the Koots this past year

That's exactly the type of info we're looking for, but we're looking for more detail. Are you a BCWF member? When did this happen? Do you know who did it? Who else was involved? That sort of thing. You can contact me privately.

[Bugle M In]

As for restriction access.
I spoke to a fellow this spring while fly fishing.
He took a Rosie along the Sunshine Coast thru one of the leh permits.
Cant recall the watershed (damn, getting old), but said there is actually no access aloowed thru the road do to some Mill or mine or some sort of
Company that the road runs thru.
Or that "no guns are allowed thru the area", thus making it impossible to get in to hunt even with a legal permit.

He managed to because he had a native friend, if i recall right.
(And yes, had success)
And that he ran into the chief of the area in question, who was also hunting Rosie.
So, if your FN, you get access and might be because the Company cant stop them? or that it is them stopping it??
But if you are not, good luck.


So, hopefully someone here reads this and may know of the area i am speaking of, if i made sense of it??? and contribute to the actual facts.

[whitlers]

I can think of two more spots.

1) A road that was severely deactivated near Gold Bridge. So bad that you can barely hike it. The deactivation went for a few km's. This particular road was an old spur that had been there for many many years.

2) Upper Lillooet FSR Hydro Project/First Nation's. Used to be able to drive through the Hydo Project just passed Meager with an escort. However they are ot allowing anyone through anymore. They also recently introduced another road closure a season or two ago at the beginning of the valley. Good LEH goat hunting, blacktail and bears in there. Alot of beautiful country you can no longer access. This one hurts more due the fact that it is a fairly main road.

That being said I do understand the need to limit access to some areas.

[Rob Chipman]

Thanks for the attempts guys, but....we need something a bit more precise than "A road near Goldbridge" or "can't recall the watershed.." :-) No offence intended, but it did make me chuckle.

I'll try to run down Upper Lillooet FSR. Last time I was there (2-3 years ago?) it was closed down because of bear/human interaction as far as I know. I went past where the hydro project was but it was blocked further upstream. You're saying it's blocked before the hydro project?

[Bugle M In]

^^^^Yup, fair enough.
I was hoping by posting that someone might see/read it and have better info it, thats all.

[whitlers]

Thanks for the attempts guys, but....we need something a bit more precise than "A road near Goldbridge" or "can't recall the watershed.." :-) No offence intended, but it did make me chuckle.

I'll try to run down Upper Lillooet FSR. Last time I was there (2-3 years ago?) it was closed down because of bear/human interaction as far as I know. I went past where the hydro project was but it was blocked further upstream. You're saying it's blocked before the hydro project?

Haha sorry about that. I wasn't sure if it would actually qualify for anything but I would be happy to send you the coordinates of the road in question. It's an extremely popular spot.


With regards to the Upper Lillooet. I was turned back at the check point before the hydro project when I was in there on a goat LEH a couple years ago. They previously let me through with an escort but they stopped allowing that or atleast I was told I couldn't.

The other closure I was referring to was on the South Lilloot FSR at 2km. I misunderstood the article I read regarding that. My bad.

[net sync]

There is interest in that, but it's a prickly subject (and actually, all access issues are pretty prickly). Everyone likes roads that allows them to access more country because it just makes everything easier. At the same time roads demonstrably damage wildlife in a long list of ways.

I'm just speculating, but at some point we're probably going to have to put the lid on how many roads we have taking us into hunting and fishing areas, and then make sure that those roads remain open. Road hunters can hunt those roads and non-road hunters can use them to get to trailheads.

The responses I've received so far are pretty balanced across some sort of Indigenous initiated restriction (info through to full restriction), regular FSRs that are somehow restricted and private gates.

So, yes, I would like any intel on any access restriction.

Fair enough, and presumably there is some value in keeping track of existing roads that have been deactivated to varying degrees (at least so one can keep track of how much access there is into a given area.) I'll go thru my notes and recollections and see if I can pm you a concise summary of what happened from my perspective to two road systems. They were both areas where I have seen others hunting over the years.

[net sync]

I'm curious what are the long term impacts on wildlife of blocking a road so most vehicles can't access it while leaving the right of way for the road more or less intact vs removing the right of way and trying to put it back more or less into the state it was before the road was built ? Presumably blocking most vehicle access while leaving the right of way more or less intact will still impact the wild life in the area ?

[Rob Chipman]

Full disclosure: I'm not a road nerd nor a wildlife bio, but I've heard it said that linear features like roads, if intact but unavailable to vehicle traffic, is enough of an advantage to predators like wolves (travel is a big part of their predation strategy so making that part easier makes them more efficient) is bad for ungulates. Obviously a robust population can likely withstand that, but we've got lots of ungulate populations that aren't robust.

It would be good to keep track of roads and have a baseline, but I think they're being added at a very rapid rate. The data may already be collected, but just need to be organized, mind you.

[boxhitch]

Forest Service Roads – Campbell River, Okanagan-Shuswap & Peace natural resource districts (https://www.bcfpb.ca/board/what-we-are-working/#)
Audit announcement of the forest service roads (FSRs) maintained in the Campbell River, Okanagan-Shuswap and Peace natural resource districts.

Managing Forest Recreation Resources Values under FRPA (https://www.bcfpb.ca/board/what-we-are-working/#)
This special report has been prompted by multiple concerns and complaints received by the Forest Practices Board about outdoor recreation activities and how recreation values are managed under FRPA. This report will determine how forestry planning and practices are addressing forest recreation values under FRPA

bcfpb.ca/board/what-we-are-working/