20gauge or .410 for first shotgun?

[Bustercluck]

I’m sure this question has been asked many times, but here it goes.

I’m thinking about getting my 11 year old a shotgun with the intentions of going after grouse. From the reading I’ve done it seems like most people lean towards a 20 gauge as a starter gun, because it takes less skill to be proficient with it.

I was thinking of a 410 crack barrel, but I don’t have a lot of experience with shotguns.

I’d also like to hear if there’s a particular model out there that is better than the others for whatever reason.

[MichelD]

I'm no expert and I don't even shoot grouse any more, but I have missed plenty (close up) with the 410 due to the small shot pattern. The 410 always worked better for me at a little distance. The 20 gauge also has light recoil and puts out more shot. My Ithaca Model 37 20 gauge does kick quite bit though due to its light weight, so consider the model of shotgun you get for your 11 year old. A good discussion in the gun shop would be good.

[BimmerBob]

Nothing wrong technically with either choice for grouse. Some things to consider are that the choice of a 20 will offer less expensive shells over the .410 so will make practice less costly and may increase trigger time if that is a concern. Also, the twenty will allow a larger choice of game in future with it being more effective for other upland game, ducks and even geese being possible. If you decide, the twenty is pretty effective for deer with rifled slugs when in range.

The .410 is deadly on grouse though and is a pleasure to shoot for even the most recoil-averse shooters and if you have the space always nice to have in the arsenal.

[VLD43]

The 20 ga would be my first choice of the two mentioned. If you are ground sluicing birds or shooting on the wing, the 410 will require some one who knows how to shoot. The effective range of a 410 is less than a 20. A Remington 1100 would be a good choice for a starter gun and something that could be grown into. The 20 is more versatile than the 410 also, as in you can shoot ducks with the 20, not so much the 410. If this was something I was considering for a young shooter, I would be taking a serious look at a 28 Ga. Shoots like a 20 but feels like a 410

[weatherby_man]

My choice would be the 20 as it can be used for more than the 410. VLD43 has a good point about the 28 too.

[adriaticum]

For an 11 year old, 410.
410 will always be a great shotgun for grouse and rabbits.
20 gauge is good too, but it's heavier to shoot but you can use it for bigger game.
It's kind of a middle of the road. If you have it, you'll want a 12 gauge for waterfowl and something smaller for grouse.
410 is nimble and just the right number of pellets not to pepper the small game with too many pellets.

[250 sav]

20 gauge and start with light target loads. The lighter the gun the heavier the recoil. Ammo is 1/2 the price as 410

[Iron Glove]

As others have said, either would work but there are advantages and disadvantages to both ( that's the excuse I use on the Good Wife when she asks why I need so many guns :razz: ) but I'd suggest a lot depends on your 11 years old's size and recoil tolerance. A larger, stronger kid would be fine with a 20, a smaller, less strong the .410.
Have been going thru this with our 10 year old Grand Girl lately, she's a pretty slim Gal, not the tallest either ( Gramma and Grampa genes ) and so far the .410 seems to work for her. I do have a youth 20 pump but that's way to big and heavy for her, she'll be using, COVID willing, a small Yildiz .410 folder and her Gramma's Savage Cub .22.
Can you borrow a couple of shot guns to try your kid out on them ??

[imack91]

Make the safe choice and get one of each :) I started on a 20ga sxs when I was 12 or 13. Years later when I purchased my first new gun I went with a 12ga for the versatility. Now that I spend most of my time hunting grouse over my setter I stick with the 20ga as it's much lighter to carry and easier on the shoulder. I wouldn't hesitate to recommend a 20ga as a starter gun. If you're feeling adventurous, perhaps a combo gun, 20ga/28ga or .410/22lr would give you and your kid lots of options and versatility. Happy hunting!

[todbartell]

A 2.5" 1/2oz 410 has about 8ft lbs recoil energy in a 5lb firearm

A 20ga 2.75" 7/8oz has 20 ft lbs energy in a 5lb gun, 15 ft lbs energy in a 7lb gun

Something to keep in mind for an 11yr old

[Linksman313]

Hey Buster
We bought my niece a MOSSBERG model 510 mini pump in 20guage (yes confusing model/guage) and introduced it to her when she was 11. She quickly earned the nickname "Whiplash" within the waterfowl crew at the time. It took 4-5 days of one on one hunting (in the blind) with just the two of us before she was comfortable toting, mounting and shooting safely. And then ----- watch out the girl was a dead shot! My niece used this shotgun for the next 5 years and has bagged just about every waterfowl available on the foreshore in the LML with it. This includes shooting the ONLY speckle belly our crew has EVER taken home for supper, came in with some Canada's during youth opening 2008/09 season. We upgraded her to a 26" Moss field pump (still 20G) for waterfowling but we cannot pry the mini out of her hands during grouse season. I must mention that my prior to my niece getting the mini pump 20G she was as well versed as a youth of 11 can be in all aspects of firearm safety and the safety concerns inside duck blind (especially with the dog present).
With our observations of her skill level, safety awareness, physical build, and comfort level with firearms it was
the right choice for us to start her with the 20G.
Hope this helps
Links
ps she still kills me a the trap meet with that newer pump, shoots 22's regularly
trying to convince her to try out and compete :)

[Krico]

Worst thing you can do is put too much gun in a youngster’s hands. My son started with a .410 single shot and I’m glad he did.
He shot many grouse and even dropped his first turkey at 20 metres with it.
He has since graduated to a Mossberg 510 mini in 20 gauge. Great little pump gun.

[Beachcomber]

My first gun was a Savage .22/.410 o/u. I used it on everything that flew but particularly remember hunting grouse with the .410 and plinking with the .22 LR. It was great and I wish I still had it. If you are going to confine your efforts to grouse I think the .410 is fine, but if you are going to broaden your horizons I’d go 20. Then again, a .410 is great to have in the arsenal and if you do hunt ducks or need more gun buying one now gives you a great excuse to buy another gun later. Win-win.

[caddisguy]

I have never actually shot a 20 gauge, at least to my recollection but I have shot grouse with a 410.

There is no question that a 410 is manageable for youth of any size/strength and it's still very effective for still-target birds.

I am curious about lighter loads through the 20 gauge though. Might be worth looking for some lower velocity ammo with lighter loads like 3/4oz or 7/8oz.

Maybe someone who knows the math can chime in, but with 12ga the difference between say 1 & 3/8oz @ 1400fps and 1 & 1/8 & 1200fps seems significant to me, but in sound and recoil. I speculate with a 20ga if you were to combine lower velocity, lighter payload and heavier gun that 20ga could be quite manageable in the hands of a young. Speculation aside maybe someone with first hand knowledge could speak to that.

Could be worth having him test out a 20 gauge with lighter loads just to see the comfort level. The 20 gauge is definitely more versatile as it would be effective for larger game and shooting birds out of the air down the road (like in the future, not literally out of the air down the road... err... well... maybe if it is safe and legal LOL)

That said, if you're good with graduating him to a 20 gauge a few years down the road anyway, get the 410 now and 20 gauge in a couple years! He didn't pay me to say that, I swear :)

You did mention proficiency as well. The 410 would be a little more difficult. That might not be a bad thing though. I am sure with some practice he will have it dialed in... and then imagine how much better he will be with the 20ga.

I vaguely recall the 410 I used many years ago having iron sights too... that would probably make things easier since it would likely be for still targets anyway.

[guntech]

A .410 is an experts gun... it take a lot of practice and skill to hit any flying object consistently.

A 20 gauge with light loads has light recoil and a better pattern.

A 12 gauge with 1 ounce loads has light recoil and a much better pattern.

[Weatherby Fan]

I grew up using a Mossberg bolt action .410 for grouse and I still have it to this day, all of my brothers kids as well as my 2 kids used it, excellent for grouse.

We also have the matching 20 gauge but it never got used, always the .410.

[todbartell]

A .410 is an experts gun... it take a lot of practice and skill to hit any flying object consistently.

A 20 gauge with light loads has light recoil and a better pattern.

A 12 gauge with 1 ounce loads has light recoil and a much better pattern.

sure, but for an 11yr old kid?

[Linksman313]

sure, but for an 11yr old kid?

Tod they grow em big down here these days :).

[boxhitch]

sure, but for an 11yr old kid?20 ga. 7/8 oz @ 1200+ vs 12 ga. 1 oz. @ ~1100 -ish ?

[250 sav]

My first gun for my 10th birthday was a baikal single 20 gauge, its still my favorite grouse gun. My son started with a 410 single at 10 the next year he used the 20.

[Bustercluck]

Thanks for all of the replies guys.

I have a 20 gauge backpacker I’m going to get him to shoot and assess the recoil and go from there. I’m leaning towards 410 or 28 gauge though. I think it will probably come down to what I can find at the local gunshop. I don’t want to order online sight unseen, just in case it doesn’t fit well.

[guntech]

A 12 gauge with 1 ounce loads has light recoil and a much better pattern.

sure, but for an 11yr old kid?

Well a 12 gauge shotgun is heavy and that will be the problem... not the recoil...

I remember firing my dad's 12 gauge model 12 when I was 6 or so... had quite the time holding the barrel up... the recoil was no problem.

[tigrr]

Either in a pump platform. My first two years of hunting was with a 410 and it got me geese, ducks and partridge.
Then up to a 12 gauge due to price of shells.

[VLD43]

Thanks for all of the replies guys.

I have a 20 gauge backpacker I’m going to get him to shoot and assess the recoil and go from there. I’m leaning towards 410 or 28 gauge though. I think it will probably come down to what I can find at the local gunshop. I don’t want to order online sight unseen, just in case it doesn’t fit well.

I shoot a lot of competitive skeet in all four gauges and I can tell you without question for upland game birds a 28 Ga is hard to beat. I shot a 20 Ga 1100 for many years and brought home a lot of grouse and ducks. It is a great little gauge. I always remember guys I shoot with talking about or praising the 28 Ga. I ended up buying a Remington 1100 sporting in 28 Ga. I took my 28 Ga 1100 up to the Pheasant club and shot 6 birds no problem, all on the wing. They all feel to the ground dead. While the ammunition for the 28 Ga is expensive compared to a 20 Ga, it is comparable in cost to 410 ammo. And if you reload 28 Ga is cheap at about $3 to $4 a box. Another observation I have made over the years is that most shooters first 100 staight is either shot with a 410 or a 28. Either a 20 or 28 in a pump gun or auto would be a great starter gun. If you get a really basic or bottom of the line Remington, you can shorten the stock to fit with a good recoil pad.

[Ride Red]

I started with my grandfather’s Iver Johnson 410 break action single when I was 8 shooting grouse on the farm. Didn’t take long to get proficient at wing shooting. One of us would throw a rock into the willows and the other would do the shooting. It’s a super light gun and a blast to shoot. My sons are the 4th generation to use this gun which is priceless all on its own:)

[Bustercluck]

I shoot a lot of competitive skeet in all four gauges and I can tell you without question for upland game birds a 28 Ga is hard to beat. I shot a 20 Ga 1100 for many years and brought home a lot of grouse and ducks. It is a great little gauge. I always remember guys I shoot with talking about or praising the 28 Ga. I ended up buying a Remington 1100 sporting in 28 Ga. I took my 28 Ga 1100 up to the Pheasant club and shot 6 birds no problem, all on the wing. They all feel to the ground dead. While the ammunition for the 28 Ga is expensive compared to a 20 Ga, it is comparable in cost to 410 ammo. And if you reload 28 Ga is cheap at about $3 to $4 a box. Another observation I have made over the years is that most shooters first 100 staight is either shot with a 410 or a 28. Either a 20 or 28 in a pump gun or auto would be a great starter gun. If you get a really basic or bottom of the line Remington, you can shorten the stock to fit with a good recoil pad.
I found a 28 gauge Mossberg bantam autoloader at p and d in Edmonton, but it’s a little bit more than I wanted to spend at $750.

[sames14]

410 all the way. Find a good magnum load, walk towards them and aim for the head. If they fly take them in the air, if not, well they are not called Fool's Hens for no reason.

[Sportster]

Sitting in my buddies cabin at Alberta beach reading this post, heading up North of Fort Assinibione tomorrow for a week of hunting white tails and upland game birds. Always blows me away on how many grouse we see and shot. Buddies all shoot 20 gauge, I shoot my 410 wing master 3in pump. #5 or 6 shot modified choke. I've had that gun for many years. Kills grouse out to20_25 yards know problem. Love that little gun! and I always get my limit.

[VLD43]

I found a 28 gauge Mossberg bantam autoloader at p and d in Edmonton, but it’s a little bit more than I wanted to spend at $750.

How does that price compare to the same gun in 410? I know $750 sounds like a lot for a shotgun, but in reality it isn't, especially if the gun is well built. Unfortunately 28 Ga guns are not as common as some of the others. The only reason for this that I can think of is that many are either looking for the cheapest thing they can find, both when it comes to guns and shells. I would suggest you visit your local gun club and see if you can find some one who shoots skeet. If you can try out the different gauges before you buy, then you can determine what works best. I know from a lot of experience shooting skeet, that there are not many people who can truly shoot a 410 well. There is little room for error. For those who do know how to shoot a 410, it is a great little gauge. What concerns me is putting a 410 in the hands of an inexperienced shooter. There is a lot more potential for wounded birds or missed birds. The nice thing about the 28 is it shoots like a 410(lite recoil) and hits like a 20 gauge. Many guys I shoot with have had conversations trying to determine why it is the 28 shoots so well for a small gauge gun. There is just something about the size, balance, and shot column, that make it the perfect little shotgun in my opinion. If you were close to Victoria, I would invite you and your son out to shoot and you could get a feel for the different gauges. Good luck

[Bustercluck]

The wife just gave me clearance for the Mossberg bantam in 28 gauge

[VLD43]

The wife just gave me clearance for the Mossberg bantam in 28 gauge

Really hope you enjoy it. In my mind its a great choice. Make sure you consult some one in the know about fitting the gun to your son. makes all the difference in the world to get them off on the right start. Proper length of pull, proper comb height. Then get out and break some clay targets. I don't think you will be disappointed. let me know how you make out. Good luck

[caddisguy]

The wife just gave me clearance for the Mossberg bantam in 28 gauge

Access granted!

Level 3 complete.

New item, "28 gauge" unlocked.

Save and Continue?

[hntcrazy]

28 gauge all the way . only problem is ammo a little tough to find .
my sons both shot when they were 10 no issues ....

[tigrr]

28 gauge and no ammo to shoot. Sounds like a positive start.
I thought the choices were between 410 and 20? Phone 10 gun stores and see if they have 28 gauge ammo, and how much it is.

[VLD43]

28 ga ammo is not that hard to get hold of. I shoot lots of it, and it not harder to get or any more expensive than 410. The 410 advocates on this site seem to be using 3 inch shells in their guns. A 3 inch 410 shell is 11/16 of an ounce. By comparison a 28 ga shell is 12/16 or 3/4 of an ounce. So maybe a bunch of the 410 proponents are actually closet 28 ga fans and just don't know it. Either way the 28 ga is one great little shotgun gauge. If the original Op of this post has trouble getting 28 ga ammo, he can contact me and I will steer him in the right direction.

[Bustercluck]

I tried ordering the 28 Mossberg from p and d, but it’s sold out. I’ll try and find another retailer, but they seem hard to come by. I’m heading moose hunting for a few more days tomorrow morning, so searching will have to wait.

I checked our local shop and they have a few options for 28 gauge ammo, so that shouldn’t be a problem. It is expensive to shoot though.

[VLD43]

I tried ordering the 28 Mossberg from p and d, but it’s sold out. I’ll try and find another retailer, but they seem hard to come by. I’m heading moose hunting for a few more days tomorrow morning, so searching will have to wait.

I checked our local shop and they have a few options for 28 gauge ammo, so that shouldn’t be a problem. It is expensive to shoot though.
Good luck with your search. Its a little more money but take a look at a Remington 1100 Sporting in 28 Ga. Great little gun. As for ammo. You can buy a flat of Winchester HS Sporting # 7 1/2 for $125 plus tax at Italian Sporting goods in Vancouver. If you decide to go this route save the sales receipt and the UPC code of each box of shells. Every May thru September Winchester runs a rebate program. All you do is download the rebate form, fill it out, include the 10 upc code patches and sales receipt and send it in. Winchester will send you back a check for $20 US funds. So your $ 140.00 Canadian flat of shells minus the $20 US rebate ($30 Canadian) just became a $110 flat of shells. So $11 a box. That is not very expensive for shells. Good luck and look forward to hearing from you

[Dutch]

Agree with VLD43 28 gauge is really tough to beat. I have several and my favourite is the weatherby 08,as good as a benelli but 1/3 price.I shot both 20 and 28 in Argentina on doves (7000) and the 28 was far nicer , but hit just as hard. For a youngster would be great. Now I see that Benelli makes a 3' 28 g. hmmmm...:)

[VLD43]

Agree with VLD43 28 gauge is really tough to beat. I have several and my favourite is the weatherby 08,as good as a benelli but 1/3 price.I shot both 20 and 28 in Argentina on doves (7000) and the 28 was far nicer , but hit just as hard. For a youngster would be great. Now I see that Benelli makes a 3' 28 g. hmmmm...:)

OH NO! A guy can never have to many smooth bores. BENELLI?

[Kamlooper]

Go for the 20 gauge, not much difference in weight and recoil ( my grandson has both) and as stated ammo is cheaper and you can get the birds farther out. Over under with 1 barrel choked down for rabbits and 1 opened up for grouse in the air.

[Redthies]

20 gauge all the way. I went through the whole gambit of 12 vs 20 vs 28 vs .410 this year. 20 is all you need other than 12. Cheaper and much more available ammo, lighter frames than 12, and pretty much zero recoil. What’s not to like?

[Bustercluck]

So after a lot of looking I ended up with a browning 410. I just ordered it last night, so it should be here by my next days off. After weighing out the options of buying one now and trying to find a bigger stock in a couple years or buying another gun, I decided to get this. It’s a little bit heavy, but it’s a full size receiver. I wanted a 28 gauge, but there’s really nothing suitable out there(in Canada).


So I have one more question. What shot size and choke should I use on this for grouse?

https://www.browning.com/products/firearms/shotguns/bps/discontinued/bps-micro-midas1.html

[VLD43]

So after a lot of looking I ended up with a browning 410. I just ordered it last night, so it should be here by my next days off. After weighing out the options of buying one now and trying to find a bigger stock in a couple years or buying another gun, I decided to get this. It’s a little bit heavy, but it’s a full size receiver. I wanted a 28 gauge, but there’s really nothing suitable out there(in Canada).


So I have one more question. What shot size and choke should I use on this for grouse?



https://www.browning.com/products/firearms/shotguns/bps/discontinued/bps-micro-midas1.html

Nice choice. Those little BPS's are nice little gun. Try some 7 1/2 shot in a 2 3/4 or 3" shell and go from there. Start with a modified choke or better yet if you can use a pattern board to start. Get a big piece of cardboard ( 3 feet x 3 feet) and set it up at 20 yds with a small circle drawn in the center. Fire some shells through it with different chokes and see what gives you the best or a good dense pattern. Keep in mind that birds on the ground are usually harder to anchor than birds in the air. let us know how things turn out. Good luck.......................

[Gumsehwah]

I would have to go with what I started with. . . Old Doc McCaffery's single 16 gague.

He gave me this when I was a teenager just before he died.

Still my favorite for grouse and bunnies. ��

[Bustercluck]

Quick update. Our second day out today. My oldest couldn’t make it out, but he loaned his shotgun to his sister for the day.

https://i.imgur.com/Ldf5Wdn.jpg

[justachip]

Awesome can't beat those smiles

[VLD43]

Congtats. Well Done. That's what it is all about. Looks like you have a new bird hunter in the family.

[Bustercluck]

A little update. I’ve been out with my oldest a bunch of days(with and without the dog) and he finally got his first bird on the last day of the season. I wasn’t even out today, because I had to work, but his uncle brought him and the dog out. The dog belongs to my brother and he did his job too. Sounds like he found the bird in a tree and pointed it, spooked it to another tree, pointed again and let my boy set up for his shot.

https://i.imgur.com/53DFoD8.jpg

[Blacktail1]

410 100% grouse payed the piper with the old 410 when I was a lad . Mom would haul ass to the chicken coup in the middle of the night and kill coons that were slaying chickens with the 410 and a flashlight more than once as well.

[2tins]

You should probably get both just to be on the safe side.

[Bustercluck]

You should probably get both just to be on the safe side.
I just picked up an xbolt for his birthday next month, so he’s going to have to wait for another shotgun. Lol