Urgent notice to bc hunters

[Sirloin]

Posted online, confirmed by a few other CORE examiners.


*URGENT NOTICE TO BC HUNTERS:


The new hunting CORE Manual is showing the British Columbia Government's possible intent to abolish publicly accessible hunting lands by changing the definition of land titles across the province to “Private” and “First Nations Treaty Land” only. A webinar meeting, hosted by a Provincial moderator, was held on June 30th, 2020 to prompt questions that CORE Instructors had regarding the new “Indigenous Chapter.” The intent behind this meeting was to provide a medium for instructors to ask questions, most of which were in regards to what this new chapter indicates about the future of land titles in the province, and how according to the current hunting regulations, the material that would be taught in the manual would be factually incorrect. The following are quotes from the indigenous chapter of the new CORE manual: "With few exceptions, wherever you hunt in B.C., you will be hunting on the traditional territory or treaty lands of one or several Indigenous Nations..." and “Hunting on First Nation Reserves or Treaty lands, is a privilege and not a right. Permission is required." I spoke with an individual who had attended this webinar, and from their perspective it appeared to be quite clear that the First Nation representatives present were fully aware of the implications of the previously mentioned quotes. They stated that permission would have to be granted on an individual basis; a potential hunter would have to go onto the reservation of the First Nation peoples who owned the land that he/she wanted to hunt, in order to ask their permission to hunt there. That, according to the 2020 - 2022 synopsis, is incorrect. In the notes taken by these instructors, it is also mentioned that First Nations Peoples’ applications for TLE (Treaty Land Entitlement) have been submitted to the Provincial Government. One quote from a CORE instructor stated “many of these TLE requests would [if approved] effectively block public access to the back country.” That same instructor reiterated that “the rewrite of the CORE manual made it seem like only one ethnic group in British Columbia is concerned about conservation.” There are other concerns that CORE instructors have with the newly published manual, but it appears as though our government is more inclined to use their time pandering to First Nations Peoples instead of addressing the real world implications of this language, or the clear inconsistencies between the Hunting Synopsis and the CORE manual. The manual, I have on good authority, has ALREADY been printed, despite fact that there have been applications, but no approvals for TLE as of yet. This misinformation has troubling implications; the CORE Manual is presented as a first resource to inexperienced and often naive individuals who are taking the CORE program as a means to educate themselves. Furthermore, the discrepancy between the two publications suggests that either the BC Provincial Government is hiding something about the future of access to huntable lands, or these particular First Nations Peoples being consulted are openly pushing their own agenda.

end.
******************************************

Don't tell you I didn't warn you this is coming, It ties into everything else I BI*@% about all the time, having to do with the anti-western "church of woke social justice" revolution forming, the ideologues who've taken control of education, media, local government, school boards....ect


The way they think, their ideology that's spreading will ABSOLUTELY lead to policy like this, and WORSE.


They are being taught to be anti-western, consumed with guilt, to see themselves and us as enemies and obstacles to their "work" They will GLADLY hand EVERYTHING over, with NO regard for us and how it impacts the majority living here paying taxes.

[wideopenthrottle]

does anyone think now that we have lost out on the UN seat things might change again?

[Rob Chipman]

Thanks for this post, Sirloin. It is going to be a very interesting learning curve going forward. I wish I were more up to speed on this whole issue (not just the CORE chapter, but the rest of the issue as well) but it is clear what direction we're going. This will take center stage for hunters, I think, and we'll have to be careful as it can be very divisive (in fact it already is for a lot of people involved). Hunters are going to have to be smart about how they act and talk on this subject, as the 2 really simple options are 1) roll over and take what we are given or 2) get marginalized as stupid sociopathic rednecks - we don't want 1, and if we get labelled as 2 we'll end up screwed that way too.

[huntingfamily]

does anyone think now that we have lost out on the UN seat things might change again?

This is provincial. The bc ndp is the first province to commit to UNDRIP and adhere to UN principles.
This is just a start. Hang on...

[RyoTHC]

I feel bad for all you folks who own land, homes or businesses in BC... you guys are about to get a rude wake up call over the next few years.

[bruce44]

So I'm a little confused with this. Are they trying to get rid of all crown land or specific crown land near reserves?

[Sirloin]

So I'm a little confused with this. Are they trying to get rid of all crown land or specific crown land near reserves?

its for what is coming... there are dozens of treaty agreements in the works. finishing very soon. they are handing massive chunks of land under the jurisdiction of consolidated Indian bands, and with the removal of the indian act and UNDRIP they will be acting as their own "nations" ...with ownership over wildlife and natural reasources. take a look at the regs for the chilcotin. thats what most of the province will look like. The government already bought up a ton of empty lots in the backcountry that were for sale. eventually it will cover almost everything.

some green activists see it as their chance to keep development and humans out. Others are anti western and wish to turn back the clock from white guilt. others working for global UN interests pushing people to urban centers only. Take a look at UN Wildlands project.

[Sirloin]

They are priming a shift in perception for new hunters. What to expect, expect that FN are in control and if you want to hunt you go through them. Eventually it will be the norm. Remember elephant hill morel season? the government gave them training wheels to run the show, and demand payment, on public land they and gov now call ""traditional territory" soon treaty lands. its a gradual process not overnight.

[bruce44]

its for what is coming... there are dozens of treaty agreements in the works. finishing very soon. they are handing massive chunks of land under the jurisdiction of consolidated Indian bands, and with the removal of the indian act and UNDRIP they will be acting as their own "nations" ...with ownership over wildlife and natural reasources. take a look at the regs for the chilcotin. thats what most of the province will look like. The government already bought up a ton of empty lots in the backcountry that were for sale. eventually it will cover almost everything.

some green activists see it as their chance to keep development and humans out. Others are anti western and wish to turn back the clock from white guilt. others working for global UN interests pushing people to urban centers only. Take a look at UN Wildlands project. Sure, on one condition. My tax dollars don't go to maintaining the animal populations once they are hunted out from over harvesting.

[Sirloin]

A lot of hunters are in complete denial "No way! that would never happen!"

take a look at some of the treaty agreements, self government and authority over resources and wildlife going on...there are a lot...

http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/showthread.php?153816-IMPORTANT-Canada-BC-Ts%26%23770%3Bilhqot%92in-Nation-Sign-Gwets%92en-Nilt%92i-Pathway-Agreement

[boxhitch]

Wondering who had input into the rewrite of the CORE manual?

[boxhitch]

A lot of hunters are in complete denial "No way! that would never happen!"
The writing was on the wall as soon as BC acknowledged having to deal with indigen Gov't as an equal partner

[skibum]

Wait a second - do you know the difference (legal) between and relative size of:

1) FN traditional lands
2) Reserve lands
3) Treaty Entitlement Lands
4) Crown Lands

If you want to rant, sorry, ignore above and let loose.

[Retiredguy]

This has been coming for years. If you want to see where things are heading just look in the Regs at Region 5, MU's 5-4 and 5-5. You will see a Notice to Hunters regarding the area that the Supreme Court of Canada granted the Tsilhqot'in Nation a declaration of Aboriginal title. You can't go in that area unless invited and you sure as hell will not be hunting, trapping or fishing in it. This is where things are heading.

Everyone should be a whole lot more interested in what is taking place with the so called agreement between the Federal Government and the Provincial Government and the Hereditary Chiefs of the Wet'suwet'en Nation in the Burns Lake/Houston/Smithers area. The meetings were behind closed doors and no other stakeholders in the area had any input whatsoever. The agreement and what it says is still shrouded in secrecy as to the specifics and I can guarantee you we are not going to like it. The NDP are selling all British Columbians down the river. The entire process is, in the opinion of some political analysts, unconstitutional as the rest of the residents of Canada and British Columbia were not represented in these talks. The final results of this agreement could form the basis for all future settlements in BC and we could easily find ourselves banned from the majority of the provinces land base.

This is serious and the majority of the people in the province are oblivious as to what our politicians are doing. The whole thing disgusts me.

[browningboy]

Wonder if fishing will be the same as that will strike a chord in way more people?

[Sirloin]

Wait a second - do you know the difference (legal) between and relative size of:

1) FN traditional lands
2) Reserve lands
3) Treaty Entitlement Lands
4) Crown Lands

If you want to rant, sorry, ignore above and let loose.

Nobody knows the extent of it! the BC resident is left totally in the dark to what is going on!

Reserve lands will be gone and consolidated with new treaty entitlement lands. Governed under new consolidated FN self government, no indian act. Much will be like Tsilhqot'in Nation a declaration of Aboriginal title, cant step foot on it. The rest traditional territories they will have a LARGE say in resource and wildlife management.

They have made their intentions clear, they want ALL OF IT, if they dont get enough this time around they will be back for more. And the government has an account to purchase private lands too, to hand over as entitlement lands, they have already done so with empty lots.

https://i.imgur.com/9OisHHa.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/7VtD6hR.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/Bh6TFRa.jpg

[IronNoggin]

Wonder if fishing will be the same as that will strike a chord in way more people?

What makes you think that is not already happening??

Nog

[Sirloin]

People really need to speak up.
Get their MPs involved. get lawyers.

NOW


there are cult of social justice politicians willing to give up anything on behalf of their woke justice missions...

[Mulies]

Seen a post on Face book this morning that got deleted shortly after that was talking about
the new core manuals that are coming out. This person stated that in the manual it talked
about land that was now crown was going to be changed to indigenous controlled lands and
to hunt on this land permission would need to be granted from the band or bands. If this is true then it sounds like we need to get ahead of this or anyone that’s not indigenous is about to be screwed yet again. Getting really tired of our government giving away my freedoms behind my back.

[carnivore]

Welcome to the new reality (we aren't there for you).

[Rob Chipman]

I think there is some confusion from the new chapter, in that it says that most of BC is either reserve, treaty land or "traditional territory".

It then says that hunters will almost always be on someone's reserve, treaty lands or traditional territory.

That's been interpreted by some (in my opinion incorrectly) as there being no more crown land, but I think that comes from the inclusion of the term "traditional territory".

Reserves and title lands are not crown land, and should probably be thought of as private property.

Traditional territory is a different thing. It isn't a legal thing. More than 100% of BC is claimed as one nation or another's traditional territory.

For now I think it's safe to say you don't need permission to hunt traditional territory unless it's also either reserve or treaty/title lands. That's still most of BC.


However, as land claims are settled we will lose crown land and access to it, so keep paying attention.

I'll addd that these concerns are not being ignored, but there isn't always a lot that we can do (we lack a bunch of power and tools).

[Rob Chipman]

All that said, if the question is "Is govt making behind closed door deals with Fns?" I think the answer is "I bet they are, and will continue to do so".

[Islander30]

What makes you think that is not already happening??

Nog

Yup happening right now !

[Sirloin]

If any one wants to know how twisted the "church of woke social justice" as i call them are........have a look inside their ideology through this mandatory city of Seattle course for white employees for "undoing their whiteness". "The goal is to teach them how they have "complicity in the system of white supremacy" and must be held "accountable to Black, Indigenous, and People of Color."
seriously, you need to understand this in the context of land giveaways to know the types currently in the drivers seat......this ideology has more and more permeated the west, city councils, governments.


"The City of Seattle held a training session for white employees called “Interrupting Internalized Racial Superiority and Whiteness.”So I did a public records request to find out exactly what this means. Let's go through it together in this thread.

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1280277423846653953.html

You think people guided by this ^ realm of ideology won't be happy to hand over your backcountry?

[RugDoctor]

People really need to speak up.
Get their MPs involved. get lawyers.

NOW


there are cult of social justice politicians willing to give up anything on behalf of their woke justice missions...
Why would anyone do any of this? If recent events have thought us anything, is that we should riot, loot, and kill to get our way. That seems to work?????

[PressurePoint]

government giving away my freedoms behind my back.

opposed to what? Taking theirs away in the first place?

So you read an article, that was posted... on what? Facebook? Yeah that’s a reliable source of accurate information.

[Sirloin]

Why would anyone do any of this? If recent events have thought us anything, is that we should riot, loot, and kill to get our way. That seems to work?????

Only works when those in power share your ideology

[hawk-i]

Yeah will wait until they try to enforce it...SWHTF....If you poke the lion enough times it will eat you!!

Could get scary!

[338win mag]

Just hunt anyways.
I do find it beyond bizarre that the Government in this Country, whether Federal or Provincial...can even begin to talk down to its Citizens about how racist we are and we need to change our thinking. When this Racism that they search for and find in its Citizenry, is actually inherent in the very institution's that we call Government.

[willyqbc]

well, all the first nations and their woke supporters should, as the old saying goes....."be careful what they wish for"

I have ALWAYS been a follower of the rules in general, but especially when it comes to my hunting and fishing. Have things gotten progressively tougher in that regard? yup....but with a bit of hard work I can still put some salmon, halibut, moose, deer, bear etc in my freezer. My family came to north america in the very early 1600's and were involved in NATION BUILDING activities like surveying the first trans canada telegraph lines....when the day comes that they hand it all over to the FN's and tell me i'm no longer ALLOWED to feed my family in the way my family has done here for 400 years......well....i suppose i'll become a criminal. I suspect a HUGE number of folks just like me will as well and it will just become a free for all. Good luck trying to police the tens of thousands of miles of backroads in this province with a woefully understaffed and unmotivated C.O. service. If the bands figure i'm gonna go ask permission, and pay them a fee......not gonna happen.....but I WILL have game in my freezer one way or another.

JMO

[wildcatter]

well, all the first nations and their woke supporters should, as the old saying goes....."be careful what they wish for"

I have ALWAYS been a follower of the rules in general, but especially when it comes to my hunting and fishing. Have things gotten progressively tougher in that regard? yup....but with a bit of hard work I can still put some salmon, halibut, moose, deer, bear etc in my freezer. My family came to north america in the very early 1600's and were involved in NATION BUILDING activities like surveying the first trans canada telegraph lines....when the day comes that they hand it all over to the FN's and tell me i'm no longer ALLOWED to feed my family in the way my family has done here for 400 years......well....i suppose i'll become a criminal. I suspect a HUGE number of folks just like me will as well and it will just become a free for all. Good luck trying to police the tens of thousands of miles of backroads in this province with a woefully understaffed and unmotivated C.O. service. If the bands figure i'm gonna go ask permission, and pay them a fee......not gonna happen.....but I WILL have game in my freezer one way or another.

JMO

Well said, I haven't been here nearly that long but will not let my rights taken by FN and the government stooges.

[gcreek]

https://canadiansforfairnessandtransparency.ca/


A small group of us in the Chilcotin have had enough, care to ante up and join?

[HarryToolips]

^^^^I will, we have to do something....what is their plan/strategy to fight the FN takeover?

[Mosin]

does anyone think now that we have lost out on the UN seat things might change again?

I sure hope so...I don't anticipate anymore suck azz moves by the pm, but what individual premiers (especially) Horgan may differ. I hope he doesn't go all soft and start handing money and titles.

[HarryToolips]

^^^^well that's just moronic......

He asked for a banning so I delivered!!

[Bubbacanuck]

Outlaw it is. I will become a trespasser and poacher. Locked gates will be solved by a battery powered angle grinder. I will hunt. Period

[Jagermeister]

Wonder if fishing will be the same as that will strike a chord in way more people?
It’s happening. Chinook closures in the strait of Georgia.

[Sirloin]

Outlaw it is. I will become a trespasser and poacher. Locked gates will be solved by a battery powered angle grinder. I will hunt. Period

Well that's just great you chose the, 'wait until the worst happens and then say F U, reckless route'

I'm sure your hunts will be a great time every time you go out risking trespassing, criminal offenses and risking losing your license and firearms, massive fines....

I'm sure new generations of hunters will be thrilled to get into it.

Any thoughts for your kids, grand kids, legacy for other Canadians losing their shared public lands?

[Sirloin]

https://canadiansforfairnessandtransparency.ca/


A small group of us in the Chilcotin have had enough, care to ante up and join?

This is great! step in the right direction, standing up for ourselves.

[boxhitch]

Yukon Supreme Court rules against Kaska Dena Council in hunting consultation caseThe KDC is itself not a First Nation, but a society headquartered in Lower Post, B.C., with a membership consisting of individuals of Kaska descent. It is currently negotiating a land claim with British Columbia and has previously acted on behalf of one or more of the four Kaska First Nations, including in negotiations and consultations with the Yukon government.
https://www.yukon-news.com/news/yukon-supreme-court-rules-against-kaska-dena-council-in-hunting-consultation-case/

Kaska Dena Council not a rights-bearing group, YG argues in hunting consultation lawsuitIn her submissions, however, Cairns said that KDC is not a communal rights-bearing group like a First Nation, but rather, is a collection of individuals from different bands who joined KDC for different reasons. Over the years, the KDC has had a shifting definition of who it represents,
https://www.yukon-news.com/news/kaska-dena-council-not-a-rights-bearing-group-yg-argues-in-hunting-consultation-lawsuit/

[Grizzlydick]

wait till they take over the roll of prime minister and premier of the province/s.
cutting their own throat they are.
what a racist move.

[Danny_29]

Well that's just great you chose the, 'wait until the worst happens and then say F U, reckless route'

I'm sure your hunts will be a great time every time you go out risking trespassing, criminal offenses and risking losing your license and firearms, massive fines....

I'm sure new generations of hunters will be thrilled to get into it.

Any thoughts for your kids, grand kids, legacy for other Canadians losing their shared public lands?

In complete agreement.

[wideopenthrottle]

well, all the first nations and their woke supporters should, as the old saying goes....."be careful what they wish for"

I have ALWAYS been a follower of the rules in general, but especially when it comes to my hunting and fishing. Have things gotten progressively tougher in that regard? yup....but with a bit of hard work I can still put some salmon, halibut, moose, deer, bear etc in my freezer. My family came to north america in the very early 1600's and were involved in NATION BUILDING activities like surveying the first trans canada telegraph lines....when the day comes that they hand it all over to the FN's and tell me i'm no longer ALLOWED to feed my family in the way my family has done here for 400 years......well....i suppose i'll become a criminal. I suspect a HUGE number of folks just like me will as well and it will just become a free for all. Good luck trying to police the tens of thousands of miles of backroads in this province with a woefully understaffed and unmotivated C.O. service. If the bands figure i'm gonna go ask permission, and pay them a fee......not gonna happen.....but I WILL have game in my freezer one way or another.

JMO

if the indian act gets abolished there will be nothing stopping natives from selling the land to anyone in the future...the indian act specified that Indians can only sell land to the government so no competition to get a good price on the land...once they sell it all maybe they will be forced to integrate....as you say " be careful what you wish for as you might just get it"

[Mulies]

This is something that will affect so many people and they all need to be informed and make a united front against
this attack on anyone not indigenous. Not just us hunters but the dad or grandfather that wants to take the kids fishing at the lake. The hikers that will have to ask permission to access trails. The people that enjoy going berry picking in the back country. And what about the mountain bikers that will have to ask to use trails they have put in countless hours making. Together maybe we can let the government know that if they go through with this they don’t have a snowballs chance in hell of ever getting re-elected.

[Rob Chipman]

This is something that will affect so many people and they all need to be informed and make a united front ....


^^^^ I think you're correct on this. It's a similar thing that BHA ran across in the States when they started resisting the restriction of access to public lands - they recognized that hunters were on the leading edge but that all outdoor enthusiasts were going to end up in the crosshairs.

[HarryToolips]

This is something that will affect so many people and they all need to be informed and make a united front against
this attack on anyone not indigenous. Not just us hunters but the dad or grandfather that wants to take the kids fishing at the lake. The hikers that will have to ask permission to access trails. The people that enjoy going berry picking in the back country. And what about the mountain bikers that will have to ask to use trails they have put in countless hours making. Together maybe we can let the government know that if they go through with this they don’t have a snowballs chance in hell of ever getting re-elected.
I agree....so let's do something about it, what does everyone think should be our sources of conveyance of this info to the public?? Go through the BCWF as concerned hunters/anglers first? We need to hold our govt accountable...

[limit time]

People on this site are so outta touch with the new generations....^^^^.

[WhiteTailAB]

Well I'm thankful to be in AB, was pRiViLeDgEd enough to hunt in BC last fall, but man you BC folks need to vote in a better government. Christ.

[RugDoctor]

Well I'm thankful to be in AB, was pRiViLeDgEd enough to hunt in BC last fall, but man you BC folks need to vote in a better government. Christ.
“Vote in...”. Hahhahha......nobody voted for the waterheads we have now......

[Bubbacanuck]

Well that's just great you chose the, 'wait until the worst happens and then say F U, reckless route'

I'm sure your hunts will be a great time every time you go out risking trespassing, criminal offenses and risking losing your license and firearms, massive fines....

I'm sure new generations of hunters will be thrilled to get into it.

Any thoughts for your kids, grand kids, legacy for other Canadians losing their shared public lands?


Tongue in cheek. If it happens. Oh well. Get permission or buy land.

vote for a different leader and have them change it later.

Otherwise, move to another province or don’t hunt.

[huntingfamily]

Well that's just great you chose the, 'wait until the worst happens and then say F U, reckless route'

I'm sure your hunts will be a great time every time you go out risking trespassing, criminal offenses and risking losing your license and firearms, massive fines....

I'm sure new generations of hunters will be thrilled to get into it.

Any thoughts for your kids, grand kids, legacy for other Canadians losing their shared public lands?

Well said sir!

[Stresd]

Dear Ms. Relies;

I am a long time resident of your constituency and long time supporter of the BC Liberal party and their governments. I have also been a resident hunter over the last 45 years, always following the appropriate laws and protocols. Getting into the back country has been a source of much pleasure and “grounding” over the years, with any harvest being a pleasant but not expected result.
Below is a posting from a BC hunting Facebook group I belong too. The post raises some very concerning issues about accessibility to crown lands for the purpose of hunting. I am absolutely opposed to any measure to restrict access to crown land whether or not it is being described as “traditional native lands”. This might also be the first step towards having a fee charged for a citizen to access crown lands being paid to indigenous groups for hunting but also by extension other non hunting recreation.
It would seem in the present political climate, the present NDP government is a willing partner in facilitating this type of accommodation to the indigenous population of BC. Without doubt there have been historical injustices inflicted on the indigenous populations. That being said there has also been significant accommodations and reparations attempted and achieved. The most recent LNG hereditary chief standoff being one where there was accommodations made with little or no information being made public, not to mention debate.
I would like to know if you, as my MLA, are aware of this move to effectively restrict access to B.C. back country and if there is any movement on behalf of the opposition to address this possibility?

CC'd to Vpalmer@Vancouversun.com & Keith Baldrey

[HarryToolips]

^^^^well written........

[mulemania]

It says “Hunting on First Nation Reserves or Treaty lands, is a privilege and not a right. Permission is required” no different than your or my private properties, “traditional territory” is crown land and no where does it say permission is required, just like the synopsis. Treaties are a good thing. Most Bands will give you permission for recreation and hunting on their land, just as a lot of other land owners will.

[RugDoctor]

It says “Hunting on First Nation Reserves or Treaty lands, is a privilege and not a right. Permission is required” no different than your or my private properties, “traditional territory” is crown land and no where does it say permission is required, just like the synopsis. Treaties are a good thing. Most Bands will give you permission for recreation and hunting on their land, just as a lot of other land owners will.
Man....do I wish people would stop thinking of PUBLIC land as crown land...what a stupid, outdated term. Maybe if we get used to believing that it’s PUBLIC land, we may take som interest, and accountability for it. And while we’re at it, let’s just consider “traditional territory” just that....a tradition. One that’s outlived its day. There have been lots of traditions go by the wayside....Christmas greetings and Christmas Follies at schools come to mind. Traditional territories may have been where some people spent their time....and you know what? That’s great. Celebrate the time you had there, and the things you did there....but times change, that time has passed, and it would have passed even without the mighty white oppressors.

The last thing I’m going to trust is that the bands will grant me permission for anything....if there’s something that’s been proven time and time again, it’s that politicians can’t be trusted and the bands are nothing more than political entities looking for political advantage. Back to that public land thing....not crown land, and not the land of any band.....PUBLIC LAND. Until I see a deed indicating some sort of paid up ownership.....traditional territory and crown land are just something in the imagination of some greedy politicians. The thought that someone is able to call land theirs.....PUBLIC land, without compensating the rightful owners....THE PUBLIC.....is not only disgusting, but a slippery slope...what’s next? Soon it will be something you care about......

[338win mag]

It says “Hunting on First Nation Reserves or Treaty lands, is a privilege and not a right. Permission is required” no different than your or my private properties, “traditional territory” is crown land and no where does it say permission is required, just like the synopsis. Treaties are a good thing. Most Bands will give you permission for recreation and hunting on their land, just as a lot of other land owners will.
The difference is its all going to be treaty lands.
Treaties are a good thing, my Grandfather was a signatory on one, a time of celebration back then, not now for Canadians who will lose pretty much everything.

Question for you...What gives you the idea that some of the Indian bands will give you permission?
It has been my experience that they won't.....the anti hunter, anti another Indian, anti white is huge in some of them and you can call it systemic racism if you want or dont,,,,its systemic within Nations I have been privy too.
What if they say no for whatever reason, then the next guy yes?...therein lies the difference.

[338win mag]

well, all the first nations and their woke supporters should, as the old saying goes....."be careful what they wish for"

I have ALWAYS been a follower of the rules in general, but especially when it comes to my hunting and fishing. Have things gotten progressively tougher in that regard? yup....but with a bit of hard work I can still put some salmon, halibut, moose, deer, bear etc in my freezer. My family came to north america in the very early 1600's and were involved in NATION BUILDING activities like surveying the first trans canada telegraph lines....when the day comes that they hand it all over to the FN's and tell me i'm no longer ALLOWED to feed my family in the way my family has done here for 400 years......well....i suppose i'll become a criminal. I suspect a HUGE number of folks just like me will as well and it will just become a free for all. Good luck trying to police the tens of thousands of miles of backroads in this province with a woefully understaffed and unmotivated C.O. service. If the bands figure i'm gonna go ask permission, and pay them a fee......not gonna happen.....but I WILL have game in my freezer one way or another.

JMO
I thought about what you say here for a couple days.
My white blood came here in the early 1600 as well, my Native blood has been here longer. Its going to get interesting when I am confronted by someone denying my "right to hunt".
Sounds like the politico's want to put things back to circa 1800 and the way they were then, indian bands in disagreement, extortion and backroom deals will abound, benefiting few.

[Retiredguy]

The naivety by so many on this site with respect to where this is heading and what it will be like to deal with First Nations on "treaty lands" to which they have Aboriginal title is breathtaking. People who live in large urban centres and who have not had to live with and work with First Nations people have NO idea of where things are heading. Time to bone up on things and look to other places and see how large tracts of "Indian" land are managed by the different nations and just how welcome non-aboriginals are. You won't like it. People need to wake up. Just look at the one chunk of land in the Chilcotin and see that you are NOT welcome there. Now picture chunks of land like that all over the province. It will be a nightmare.

I can guarantee you that you will not be welcome on those lands, and the few that will allow you access to fish and hunt will be sticking a hefty price tag on it.

[mulemania]

Man....do I wish people would stop thinking of PUBLIC land as crown land...what a stupid, outdated term. Maybe if we get used to believing that it’s PUBLIC land, we may take som interest, and accountability for it. And while we’re at it, let’s just consider “traditional territory” just that....a tradition. One that’s outlived its day. There have been lots of traditions go by the wayside....Christmas greetings and Christmas Follies at schools come to mind. Traditional territories may have been where some people spent their time....and you know what? That’s great. Celebrate the time you had there, and the things you did there....but times change, that time has passed, and it would have passed even without the mighty white oppressors.

The last thing I’m going to trust is that the bands will grant me permission for anything....if there’s something that’s been proven time and time again, it’s that politicians can’t be trusted and the bands are nothing more than political entities looking for political advantage. Back to that public land thing....not crown land, and not the land of any band.....PUBLIC LAND. Until I see a deed indicating some sort of paid up ownership.....traditional territory and crown land are just something in the imagination of some greedy politicians. The thought that someone is able to call land theirs.....PUBLIC land, without compensating the rightful owners....THE PUBLIC.....is not only disgusting, but a slippery slope...what’s next? Soon it will be something you care about......


you should re-write every document and map to rename it PUBLIC land then... as it stands it’s legally and always has been CROWN LAND some of it being provincial some being federal

[mulemania]

The difference is its all going to be treaty lands.
Treaties are a good thing, my Grandfather was a signatory on one, a time of celebration back then, not now for Canadians who will lose pretty much everything.

Question for you...What gives you the idea that some of the Indian bands will give you permission?
It has been my experience that they won't.....the anti hunter, anti another Indian, anti white is huge in some of them and you can call it systemic racism if you want or dont,,,,its systemic within Nations I have been privy too.
What if they say no for whatever reason, then the next guy yes?...therein lies the difference.

Based off the difference on the every signed treaty so far, none of the bands received the traditional claimed territory. For example the local Powell river band received 6400H which was only a extremely small portion of the claim. They also state on their website recreation and hunting is permitted. They only ask you sign a wavier for being on their property.

[Sirloin]

We were all born here.

WE ARE HERE. WE LIVE HERE NOW, AND WE ARE NOT LEAVING. THERE IS A NATION NOW.

What we are offering is everyone SHARE this patch of earth EQUALLY as public lands, including immigrants from all races and creeds who join this nation.

What THEY are offering is total exclusive private ownership over this patch of earth based on their special racial group makeup(4% of the people living on this patch of earth) in their own special ethnostates.

The world has moved on from that. It's really quite simple.

[RugDoctor]

you should re-write every document and map to rename it PUBLIC land then... as it stands it’s legally and always has been CROWN LAND some of it being provincial some being federal
Correct....it should be re-written. Nomenclature of this sort was deliberately chosen by the government of the day to dissuade uppity citizens from thinking they should have access or rights to lands. It never should have been allowed int he first place and served well to groom sheep into believing that land belongs to the government when in actuality governments should own NOTHING. The government simply makes decisions, supposedly....supposedly based on what voters want. This of course is not true, and is able to happen when people forget, and have forgotten for such a long time that the government should be nothing more than public servants there to serve the public interest....(maybe not so much special interest....just for a little while please).

Yeah, the government should make responsible decisions on our behalf regarding public lands...but to call them “crown” or anything other than public serves only to indicate that the land is not yours and mine. “Crown land” is not yours and mine, and the “crown” can do what they want with it.....including give it away. Not even the Supreme Court of failure should be allowed to make a decision like they did...it’s public land belonging to all British Columbians and to give it away should require a referendum....what a door that opened, giving that land away. Absolute garbage...the arrogance of politicians and judges should be enough to promote unrest and civil disobedience.

[Sirloin]

Correct....it should be re-written. Nomenclature of this sort was deliberately chosen by the government of the day to dissuade uppity citizens from thinking they should have access or rights to lands. It never should have been allowed int he first place and served well to groom sheep into believing that land belongs to the government when in actuality governments should own NOTHING. The government simply makes decisions, supposedly....supposedly based on what voters want. This of course is not true, and is able to happen when people forget, and have forgotten for such a long time that the government should be nothing more than public servants there to serve the public interest....(maybe not so much special interest....just for a little while please).

Yeah, the government should make responsible decisions on our behalf regarding public lands...but to call them “crown” or anything other than public serves only to indicate that the land is not yours and mine. “Crown land” is not yours and mine, and the “crown” can do what they want with it.....including give it away. Not even the Supreme Court of failure should be allowed to make a decision like they did...it’s public land belonging to all British Columbians and to give it away should require a referendum....what a door that opened, giving that land away. Absolute garbage...the arrogance of politicians and judges should be enough to promote unrest and civil disobedience.


Absolutely spot on!

[Stresd]

Dear Ms. Relies;

I am a long time resident of your constituency and long time supporter of the BC Liberal party and their governments. I have also been a resident hunter over the last 45 years, always following the appropriate laws and protocols. Getting into the back country has been a source of much pleasure and “grounding” over the years, with any harvest being a pleasant but not expected result.
Below is a posting from a BC hunting Facebook group I belong too. The post raises some very concerning issues about accessibility to crown lands for the purpose of hunting. I am absolutely opposed to any measure to restrict access to crown land whether or not it is being described as “traditional native lands”. This might also be the first step towards having a fee charged for a citizen to access crown lands being paid to indigenous groups for hunting but also by extension other non hunting recreation.
It would seem in the present political climate, the present NDP government is a willing partner in facilitating this type of accommodation to the indigenous population of BC. Without doubt there have been historical injustices inflicted on the indigenous populations. That being said there has also been significant accommodations and reparations attempted and achieved. The most recent LNG hereditary chief standoff being one where there was accommodations made with little or no information being made public, not to mention debate.
I would like to know if you, as my MLA, are aware of this move to effectively restrict access to B.C. back country and if there is any movement on behalf of the opposition to address this possibility?

CC'd to Vpalmer@Vancouversun.com & Keith Baldrey

One person replied to this point. Interesting to see if they actually follow up


We have our research dept. looking into this and a reply is coming.





<image001.png>

DEBBIE WARD
Constituency Assistant to
Tracy Redies, MLA
Surrey-White Rock
P: 604 542-3930
E: debbie.ward@leg.bc.ca
A :135-1959-152nd Street,
Surrey BC V4A 9E3

[Grizzlydick]

think we need to talk to the Queen about this. it is hers......

[wideopenthrottle]

I said 20 years ago...we need to pay them off then cut them off...they will need money from somewhere and will start selling their land and land use rights...maybe then they will have to find their own way (truly alone) or integrate

[mulemania]

I said 20 years ago...we need to pay them off then cut them off...they will need money from somewhere and will start selling their land and land use rights...maybe then they will have to find their own way (truly alone) or integrate

all the treaties that have been signed that have a clause stating If the land is to be sold, it must be sold back to the government.

[RugDoctor]

all the treaties that have been signed that have a clause stating If the land is to be sold, it must be sold back to the government.
On behalf of the people who actually pay for it of course. Since the government has exactly zero dollars.....but the public has lots of tax revenue......it just gets misappropriated constantly by our consistently corrupt governments.

[forestwalker]

I wonder what the BCWF's comments are going to be going forward. First things first, we need an entity we can all band together with. The BCWF used to be that entity, now i'm no longer sure. We have to decide whether the BCWF are friend or foe, seems they stopped fighting for you and me sometime ago. If they can't align themselves with the resident hunters and other public land users and actively participate in aiding our efforts in times like these then what are they truely there for. It was discussed in the past about creating another non profit entity outside of the BCWF. Perhaps, depending on their stance, these talks need to be reopened and with much more conviction.

[180grainer]

Wonder if fishing will be the same as that will strike a chord in way more people?
It's the access to resources and related jobs, (mining, logging etc.) that will drive this home for most. Coupled with the bad economic down turn that's so obviously coming where people will have trouble putting food on their table will result in such a backlash towards the FN by the general population, they won't know what hit them. All because a bunch of self loathing white liberal mother ****er's decided to ease their personal misguided guilt by selling the rights and privileges of the general population down the toilet.

The real irony here is that the NDP Government just announced a new action group to address systemic racism in BC. You can't make this shit up. They are negotiating to remove people's access to land and resources based on a person's ancestry and then virtue signal about getting to the bottom of systemic racism.

[RugDoctor]

It's the access to resources and related jobs, (mining, logging etc.) that will drive this home for most. Coupled with the bad economic down turn that's so obviously coming where people will have trouble putting food on their table will result in such a backlash towards the FN by the general population, they won't know what hit them. All because a bunch of self loathing white liberal mother ****er's decided to ease their personal misguided guilt by selling the rights and privileges of the general population down the toilet.
And just watch all the foreign investment line up at the BC border to invest in the province! I mean, who wouldn’t want to pay bribes for access!!? And then.....pay them again when the initial bribe runs out....and again....and again....

[338win mag]

It's the access to resources and related jobs, (mining, logging etc.) that will drive this home for most. Coupled with the bad economic down turn that's so obviously coming where people will have trouble putting food on their table will result in such a backlash towards the FN by the general population, they won't know what hit them. All because a bunch of self loathing white liberal mother ****er's decided to ease their personal misguided guilt by selling the rights and privileges of the general population down the toilet.

The real irony here is that the NDP Government just announced a new action group to address systemic racism in BC. You can't make this shit up. They are negotiating to remove people's access to land and resources based on a person's ancestry and then virtue signal about getting to the bottom of systemic racism.
No shit, we get told we are racist, yet the systemic racism is glaring within government and especially within FN culture from the top down, to say otherwise is a complete lie.
So it seems now...this is a perfect example of systemic racism in this country, lol, its coming from the ones pointing the finger of blame, classic.

[ElectricDyck]

The doors song keeps playing in my head these last few months...this it the end...my only friend the end....it will be interesting if we got out with a fight or a whimper...sadly history has shown we go out with a whimper..

[Rob Chipman]

I wonder what the BCWF's comments are going to be going forward. First things first, we need an entity we can all band together with. The BCWF used to be that entity, now i'm no longer sure. We have to decide whether the BCWF are friend or foe, seems they stopped fighting for you and me sometime ago. If they can't align themselves with the resident hunters and other public land users and actively participate in aiding our efforts in times like these then what are they truely there for. It was discussed in the past about creating another non profit entity outside of the BCWF. Perhaps, depending on their stance, these talks need to be reopened and with much more conviction.


I'm not making any official statement on behalf of BCWF, but as some of you know, I am a director so I can perhaps shed some light on this.


What the OP highlighted is a very widespread political change. It impacts all aspects of our society, whether the impacts are good, bad or yet to be determined. It doesn't just impact access to the land base.


BCWF can only do what it can. We don't have any sort of legislative power.


-We are not the government. We have the ability to give the government advice, and to ask the government questions. We do both of those things. Sometimes government listens and sometimes they do not.


- We are a grassroots member driven organization. We pursue the interest of our members to the best of our abilities, but we do that as volunteers. If you're unhappy with what we've done please consider volunteering. We always need help.


-We try to encourage our members to contact politicians and other influencers directly as well as through emails and letters that the BCWF prepares for it's members to make things easier.


-We do this work for BCWF members. Many BCWF members are resident hunters, but many, many BC resident hunters are not BCWF members.


-We limit the pursuit of our members' interests to those that conform with our Vision and Mission. For those who don't know what that vision and mission is, here it is:


*******************
https://bcwf.bc.ca/vision-mission-values/


Our Vision
“Leading the conservation and wise use of British Columbia’s fish, wildlife and habitat.”
Our Mission
“To protect, enhance and promote the wise use of the environment for the benefit of present and future generations.”


Ensure public access to recreational and outdoor activities, fish and wildlife resources and crown land
Provide science/fact-based solutions for its members and other stakeholders in B.C.

*****************************


-If you are a resident hunter but not a BCWF member, but you want BCWF to work to pursue the interest and concerns that you have that correspond with the values and mission of the BCWF, join the BCWF. If you are a member but you're not happy with the direction of the BCWF, make your voice known. Attend AGMs (we held one today - were you there?)


-If you're unhappy with BCWF and don't want to join and think that a new entity is required, fly at 'er. If you're pursuing missions other than BCWF's that are good for BC hunters I'll join.


Now, with that said, BCWF is not happy with the current state of the CORE manual. We don't control the program, but we try to influence it. We do that with volunteers. We'd like to see changes, and we're working on that. We might be successful, but we might not be. If you're unhappy perhaps think about whether you're aiming at the right target before you pull the trigger and shoot the BCWF.


In terms of access to the land base and the politics that have brought us to where we are, don't confuse your personal political views with the legal facts of life. Indigenous rights are established in law and have been confirmed various times by the Supreme Court of Canada. They are based in the Royal Proclamation of 1793, which in layman's terms means that the King of Great Britain, through Parliament, in order to cement gains against the French in North America, recognized First Nations as holders of some degree of land title. This was followed up by the Treaty of Niagara the following year, and [hit the fast forward button] led us to the modern SCC rulings.


Additionally, there are Canadian Charter rights that support Indigenous title/sovereignty.


Lastly, there is the adoption of UNDRIP, which was passed and is law.


If you look at BCWF's values and mission you'll see that access to the land base is core business for BCWF. However, you'll also understand that BCWF can't change laws and can't over-rule the Supreme Court of Canada. We can’t tell government what to do. Additionally, we aren’t the only people government listens to. For example, when we argue that grizzly bear hunting is sustainable and provide scientific proof of that the government listens to us, but they also listen to the Commercial Bear Viewing Association and other groups who are opposed to our goals.

The fact that we don’t always get what we want (and that is a fact) doesn’t mean we aren’t trying, or that we aren’t fighting for our members. I think most of us with a mile or two under the hood understand that. You can’t always get what you want.


Can we get what we need? Maybe, but we’ll need help. Indigenous rights have been determined by the courts to be, in addition to a real and concrete thing established in law, to also be evolving. First Nations will exercise more control over access to the land base and how wildlife is hunted. Blockades as we know them will disappear because First Nations will have the legal right to deny access to large areas of BC.

BCWF understands this and is grappling with how to resolve it. Arguing that FNs don’t pay the freight, or that we are one land and one people, or that crown land isn’t a real thing are simply exercises in denying reality. FNS rights as they stand today are established in law and must be accepted (unless you advocate abandoning the rule of law as Antifa and BLM currently do south of the line). Stamping our feet and holding our breath until we turn blue won’t work either. If you want to take up arms in opposition to the provincial and federal governments, or get into armed conflict with FNs I can guarantee that it will end in tears, and not for the powers that be.

[Rob Chipman]

Can we sue the government over these things? The answer is generally no. A multi-billion dollar FN legal industry exists and BCWF can’t compete.

Do we have to accept what we’re given? Again, the answer is no, but the way to change what we’re given isn’t clear, and the way forward will not be easy. As it stands now we are left with advising government, asking them to do what we want, and building relationships with other key decision makers in this new and evolving world - the First Nations themselves. Sometimes the FNs are open to the relationship building, and great things result. Sometimes the FNs don;’t want to engage. It’s free world and that’s their right.


In summary, I repeat that this is not an official BCWF position. This is my read on things. I understand that it may be received poorly, but take a breath before you dispute what I’ve said. We very likely don’t differ substantially on most values, so if you want to take me to the woodshed please do it on the basis of fact, not opinion.

If you don’t know what BCWF is doing there is a simple solution. Find out. We’re not keeping stuff secret. Join BCWF. We need your money and we need your energy and insights. Attend AGMs. Call and visit your MPs and MLAs.

If BCWF’s mission and values aren’t doing it for you, start another organization. Look at politics around the globe - every side has more than one organization pushing on the wheel. Some are more polite, and some are a little rougher around the edges. There is room for everyone, from individuals through F&G clubs through political action groups through to larger non-partisan non-profits like BCWF.

We do need to and together and stop shooting our own wounded.

[vortex]

Thank you Rob Chipman for the informative post. It's a tough pill to swallow as we watch what is happening in our province and our world. Ottawa set a course many years ago and we are watching the results happen in real time now. The best hunting and fishing opportunities in our lives may be behind us now.

[338win mag]

Rob Chipman
You are right about one thing, it will end in tears for some.

[Rob Chipman]

^^^^^ And not just the reconciliation/land claims/Indigenous rights process in BC. This world really seems to be going through some extreme changes. Again, some good, but there are going to be lots of surprised people with tears before we come out the other side. Widening the focus from BC to include the rest of the world, I think the US election (whichever way it turns out) is going to be like hitting a big rock when you're out on the boat. Can you imagine the riots in cities if Trump get's re-elected? Can you imagine the anger if he loses a close one?

[Redthies]

There has been a call for “equal rights for all” since as long as I’ve been alive. That’s over 50 years. We are at a point where the pendulum has swung well past the “equal” point, and we are now into the “punitive damages” part of the swing. Instead of equality, we are seeing “reverse racism”. We citizens of B.C. and Canada are being punished for the mere act of being alive. None of us were involved in any of our countries history be it good, bad or ugly. There is no equity in THAT!

[Rob Chipman]

I hear what you're saying, Redthies. We face a tough challenge, but we need to respond to it in an effective way.

I couldn't help but remember something that I witnessed at BCWF's AGM last year in Ft. St. John. A nice lady from the provincial government gave a talk on reconciliation. Everyone listened politely but in the closed session a member stated (and I hope he's on this forum and reads this):

"That was the lamest exercise in white guilt that I've ever heard."

My initial impression was "OK, don't say that in your outside voice, because you're not really helping. There's a tidal wave coming and you're complaining that the beach is dirty".

And then he said:

"We don't need indoctrination about reconciliation. What we need is education"....

....and I recognized that the guy had better vision than me and that he had put one right through the bullseye. He had summarized in less than 20 words what we need to do in the hunting community.

Reconciliation and land claims and Indigenous rights are happening and are going to continue to happen.

Complaining that we're seeing reverse racism or that there is no equity in what's happening or that people alive today are not responsible for the actions of the past is not an effective response.

It's not effective because it only preaches to the choir. It doesn't convince anyone on the other side of the argument that any aspect of the evolving process is a bit offside. It just reinforces their belief that anyone resisting these changes is an unreconstructed racist.

Indigenous rights are enshrined in a ton of law, they benefit a large legal industry as well as politicians, and they are powered by a population that has valid grievances and an increasing ability to demand that those grievances are remedied.

Hunters do not have anywhere near that many rights enshrined in law.

Hunters do not support a large legal or political industry.

Hunters do have some valid grievances, but we have a very undeveloped ability to try to have those grievances remedied.

It's important for us to recognize, as the guy at the Ft. St. John AGM clearly did, that Indigenous people in this country have a long history of valid grievances, and that they are way bigger than what hunters have. We can't equate the two. For a few examples consider:

- Canadian legal tradition recognizes and accepts precedent and common law principles. Indigenous people have common law and statutory rights that have been ignored for centuries. That's why their current legal position is so strong;

-Canada does have systemic racism. You can get offended by that statement, but if you are please explain how we have standing legislation (The Indian Act) that mandates different legal treatment for Canadians based on their...race. (You can expand on the systemic racism part, but we don't have to. If there is actual legislation in force that treats humans differently on the basis of race, you've got systemic racism. Don't feel bad if you never saw it that way. The premier of Quebec screwed up on that recently, so you're in good company).

I can continue the list, but we don't have to. To come up with an effective response that preserves hunters' access to the landbase in order to hunt we just need to recognize that First Nations have a valid reason to be unhappy with the status quo.

We also need to stop crying out loud about the unfairness of it all. It may be unfair, and we might be every upset about that unfairness, but it's going to fall on deaf ears.

I don't think I'm wrong is saying that there are a few very possible developments that we'll see in the future:

-Grizzly bear hunting restricted to FNs who then sell those hunts to rich American trophy hunters, combined with silence from the urban latte animal rights crowd;

-no access to large areas of treaty lands unless fees are paid to the relevant bands;

-a requirement for multiple hunting licenses from multiple levels of government;

-multiple sets of hunting regulations from multiple levels and forms of government;

- enforcement of confusing rules that is executed jointly by FNs governments as well as the Province.

If you don't like that picture you need to band together with other hunters and come up with an effective response. It won't be easy.

We also need to recognize that perhaps our fight isn't with FNs. To a greater or lesser degree it's very possible that we actually have a lot in common with the FNs (for example, how many FNs love Trudeau? How many guys on this forum love Trudeau? See? A lot of us have something in common with FNs).

If you don't want to band together then do nothing aside from complain in a way that the other side finds irrelevant. I don't think you'll be happy with the result.

[Dannybuoy]

Interesting read Rob .... I am thinking that if one was to buy a licence from an indigenous band to hunt (whatever including grizzly) on unceded territory
( formerly crown land ) charges would likely be dismissed in court ? BC hunting licences will be a thing of the past very soon .

[Surrey Boy]

I think we'll go the way of South Africa soon.

[Rob Chipman]

DannyBuoy wrote:

" I am thinking that if one was to buy a licence from an indigenous band to hunt (whatever including grizzly) on unceded territory
( formerly crown land ) charges would likely be dismissed in court ?"

That is an interesting prospect and a very pertinent question. I think the province and the feds are of the opinion that FNs are subject to provincial and federal law, but I'm not sure all FN members feel that way. It's tough to say that you're negotiation on a "nation to nation" basis while still maintaining that the First Nation concerned isn't sovereign. Still, I'm not sure that if, for example, the Tahltan Central Government gave you permission to hunt and kill a G-bear that you'd be ok with the province. Clearly that will be something that needs to be sorted out going forward.

I think it's important to recognize that any land that hasn't formally been ceded to by a FN to someone else is "unceded territory", but what exactly does that mean? I live on the unceded territory of the Squamish, Tsleil Waututh and Musqueam nations.

Now, I bought and paid for that property and received title that had been originally granted by the Crown. Did the Crown ever properly acquire that title from the FNs involved? Did the Crown sell....stolen property?



Who knows? Greater minds than ours are going to figure that out, but this first occurred to me when I read on a provincial website somewhere that fee simple title in Tsilhqot'in Declared Title lands would have to be figured out. I thought "WTF do you mean? Fee simple is sacrosanct".

I've done some research and I think I might be wrong on that. I'm pretty sure there are some guys in the Chilcotin who will say "Nice to see you guys catching up on what's going on".


The majority of BC is unceded. That doesn't mean that any particular FN has the right to make laws on unceded territory. I think they need to conclusively establish Aboriginal Title first. For example, I think everyone who matters (ie, the Feds, the province and the Tsilhqot'in) agree that the TNG can make laws that apply within the Tsilhqot'in Nation Declared Title Lands.

But I also think there are some Tsilhqot'in who feel that they can apply that law over their whole traditional territory.

Add in that lots of land in BC is traditional territory of more than one nation, so things are going to get....squishy.

[Dannybuoy]

Rob , Yup . it will get tested in court , problem for the regular bc resident will be the high paying "customers" and friends and family will get priority

[Rob Chipman]

^^^^^ You are correct. We're far removed from the idea that there is one set of rules for everyone and everyone gets treated fairly. Lots of people getting a bit screwed in a bunch of differing ways.

[303savage]

The Natives would still be throwing rocks at their next meal if we weren't here.

[Redthies]

Rob, you insinuated that I am complaining, and also that I am a racist. Both points are very far from the truth. My post was merely to point out that racism cuts both ways, and people like myself are being discriminated against already (May 1st OIC allows one “race” to be exempted from the new law). It is only going to get worse. I was stating, and I will again now, EQUALITY means EQUAL treatment for ALL. No special treatment for any one group. Turning back the clock is impossible, but going forward towards REAL equality is possible.

You dont see me or my relatives going back to the Crimea to reclaim our ancestral lands after we had to flee the communists in the early 1920s. My family lost vast land holdings and arrived in Canada in 1922 with the clothes on their backs and little else. We adapted...

[Surrey Boy]

Rob, you insinuated that I am complaining, and also that I am a racist. Both points are very far from the truth. My post was merely to point out that racism cuts both ways, and people like myself are being discriminated against already (May 1st OIC allows one “race” to be exempted from the new law). It is only going to get worse. I was stating, and I will again now, EQUALITY means EQUAL treatment for ALL. No special treatment for any one group. Turning back the clock is impossible, but going forward towards REAL equality is possible.

You dont see me or my relatives going back to the Crimea to reclaim our ancestral lands after we had to flee the communists in the early 1920s. My family lost vast land holdings and arrived in Canada in 1922 with the clothes on their backs and little else. We adapted...

Similar to my heritage.

I will say, I'm grateful that my ancestors were integrated into the British Empire, the most just and prosperous society in history.

[Rob Chipman]

Rob, you insinuated that I am complaining, and also that I am a racist.

No insinuation or offence intended. If I felt you were those things I'd just tell you. Sorry if you took it the the wrong way. It's a difficult subject to talk frankly about without risking offending someone.

I share your values about equality. There should be no special treatment for everyone, and any past injustices should be remedied in a way that puts everyone on equal footing.

Racism cuts both ways. I understand and accept that.

However, we live in a country where not everyone holds those values. We have laws that explicitly contradict them. You and I both know that.

So, what do we do? If you're talking about maintaining access to the land base then I recommend coming together and crafting an effective response. Complaining that as white male you're discriminated against probably isn't the sort of response that we'll find to be effective. I think you and I both know that too.

If you're talking about some sort of larger culture war or concerted political action to get different politicians running the show and have the current trends reversed, fly at 'er. My agenda is full with what I'm trying to accomplish now.

Anyway, no offence intended and no charge of being a racist insinuated. I don't think you said anything untrue or unacceptable. A lot of people share your thoughts.

[willyqbc]

For a bunch of the reasons Rob states in post #80......this train is going to run us over and theres no stopping that now. Does that mean we just roll over and take it? ABSOLUTELY NOT!! Like many groups in history who have been kicked once too often, i say We revert to the fine tradition of civil disobedience and absolutely IGNORE whatever new rules they put out. En masse I think we all become poachers and trespassers on indian land. YES, you will have to risk being arrested and paying a fine, but realistically if enough folks are doing it, there will be very little that can be done in the way of enforcement. This province is just too big and its off highway road networks are far too complex. Not too mention, I suspect the CO's may be less than enthusiastic.

Seems to me, based on what i've seen lately, this is the M.O. most likely to get results

[Walking Buffalo]

Interesting read Rob .... I am thinking that if one was to buy a licence from an indigenous band to hunt (whatever including grizzly) on unceded territory
( formerly crown land ) charges would likely be dismissed in court ? BC hunting licences will be a thing of the past very soon .


I don't think these points were offered yet.

Under Canadian law, First Nations can already sell hunting licences for Reservation land.
They could try to extend this to traditional lands.

However, under Canada law, First Nations must currently obtain Federal approval to sell these licences, which includes requirements to produce and have approved a wildlife management plan.
First Nations could attempt to sell licences without Federal aproval.

However, Provincial and Federal governments have jurisdiction over transportation of wildlife over and across their borders.

The Provinces, BC in this case, could disallow any importation of wildlife killed under the "authority" of a licence issued by a FN.
The Federal gov. could disallow the export of wildlife killed under the "authority" of unapproved FN issued licences.

In other words, this is not an easy path for FN's to just do 'cause they want to.
Federal and Provincial governments will have to be complicit.

[Rob Chipman]

^^^^ Wow. Now that is some interesting stuff.

- Are we going to see a recognized "border" between FNs land and the rest of the province? We have boundaries now, but do they rise to the level of borders? Interesting.

- Then there is the whole reserve vs. title lands vs. treaty lands vs. traditional territory.

The times they are a changing.

[Walking Buffalo]

There certainly are distinct borders with provincial jurisdiction and Indian Reserves (IR).
IRs are Federal lands under federal jurisdiction and control.
Provincial hunting laws do not apply.

You do not need a provincial hunting licence to hunt on IRs.

If the Reserve, such and many in Saskatchewan that offer outfitting on their Reserve land under Federal approval, these animals can be /imported/exported with the authority of the Federal licence.
IRs that have not submitted a wildlife/hunting plan from the Feds, typically allow non-member hunting based on verbal permission and conditions. Non-treaty non-Nation hunters can kill all the animals the Nation allows. The challenge is legally transporting the hunted wildlife OFF of the Reserve. Technically, this wildlife is being imported into provincial jurisdiction, which requires a provincial permit.

In Alberta, unwritten provincial policy is to allow a valid and current provincial hunting licence for specific animals to be used as an import permit to transfer animals killed on Reserves to be transported into the Province.
I have no idea what the BC policy is.
So, while You do not need a provincial hunting licence to hunt on IRs,
you might need one to remove that animal from the reserve.


As you noted, how the courts and provincial/federal governments react to new First Nation rights and agreements to "traditional lands" needs to be vigilantly watched by the non-Indian hunting community and our stakeholder reps. Things could change very fast.

[Rob Chipman]

^^^^^Again, very interesting stuff (and I bet you're in a small minority for understanding it).

Thanks for sharing that info.

[Surrey Boy]

Looking at the greater context, is this an attempt of the Federal government, or specifically the judiciary, to mitigate Provincial power?

[Rob Chipman]

^^^^I doubt it. Two textbook conspiracy critiques apply:
1) Don't diagnose conspiracy when stupidity explains it, and;
2) wolves don't conspire to kill sheep - its just their nature.

[abbyfireguy]

Maybe we should withhold a portion of our taxes. If we loose access to lands that every taxpayer own in B.C.(theoretically), why should we be paying for something we can’t use?
Just thinking out loud.
If ownership of natural resources doesn’t stay within public taxpayer control, major revolts will likely happen.
Politicians have a way of cocking up anything they touch speaking in the broad term. A rare few make a difference for everyone,
most don’t.
Sad really when you stop and ponder that...

[303savage]

lost out on the UN seat things might change again? That's good news. Now if we could get rid of Trudope things will get better.

[Rob Chipman]

Abbyfireguy:

"Maybe we should withhold a portion of our taxes"

As this world.....um....changes faster and faster (yeah, that's the way to put it) more and more people are thinking out loud like you on a vareity of topic relating to taxes. A recent example from south of the line regarding the hot topic of Covid and opening schools led to a comment by one guy who said "I don't care if you open our don't open the schools. But if you don't open them give me my tax money back so I can pay for my kid's education myself".

We'll probably see more of that sentiment. You're not being unreasonable when you ask "Why do I pay taxes?" That is always a fair question.

[BgBlkDg]

Eventually, the growing hatred of Indians due to this sort of chicanery will motivate some citizens to become violent to preserve OUR rights and I feel that this is now certain to happen.

[wildcatter]

Eventually, the growing hatred of Indians due to this sort of chicanery will motivate some citizens to become violent to preserve OUR rights and I feel that this is now certain to happen.

That certainly is a possibility, even though some on here don't think so.

[338win mag]

Eventually, the growing hatred of Indians due to this sort of chicanery will motivate some citizens to become violent to preserve OUR rights and I feel that this is now certain to happen.
Years ago I was told this, I didn't believe it would, now I do, and I am certain it will happen.


That certainly is a possibility, even though some on here don't think so.
Someone erroneously thinks that the hunting Community moves together in some cohesive mass, wrong.
We have laws for us all to follow, its called "the rule of law"...we don't all follow it. Sadly, or gladly, depending on how you look at it I see it happening. My very respected FN friends warned of this very thing, FN governance is top heavy.

[AtlinLocal]

for the ones of you that do care
https://www.yukon-news.com/news/group-of-b-c-first-nations-announce-mutual-support-of-travel-hunting-restrictions/