Help with Regulation Change "precision guided firearm"

[David]

Hi there...

Someone on Facebook was nice enough to post a link with the proposed changes to the regulations back in December and then whether they were enacted or not.

https://apps.nrs.gov.bc.ca/ahte/hunting?fbclid=IwAR3NXRCnWxFo72UE97ONA6EPsFmB8PT1R xDUXePj41x1Q7i_pw43PiDD-bk

My question is on "precision guided firearms" - these have now been banned for hunting, but can someone give me an example of what one is and what one isn't???

Originally I thought they were proposing to ban the scope/rangefinder combinations BUT the language includes this part (emphasis mine):

"automatically adjusting the reticle such that a hunter simply needs to depress the trigger, lock on to the target, and the firearms discharges automatically."

So are scope/rangefinder combos legal or not?
Can anyone point me to an example of a "precision guided firearm" so my rich friends know what NOT to buy?

Thanks

David

[Pioneerman]

I think it does just what it says like a gun in a plane, you cross over the target and hit a button, so locks on that target, the next time it crosses the exact same spot with trigger depressed it fires

[huntingfamily]

David, just for clarity I'll put the complete text in...

Proposed Regulations:*

Prohibit the use of Precision Guided Firearms, which act as a range finder and condition sensor (i.e. wind speed/direction, humidity, temperature, distance, target movement, etc.), automatically adjusting the reticle such that a hunter simply needs to depress the trigger, lock on to the target, and the firearms discharges automatically.

Rationale:*

This proposed regulation requested by the Provincial Hunting and Trapping Advisory Team. For more information on the process that led to the request refer to the “Additional Information” section at the bottom of this page.

Technology related to firearms have advanced significantly in recent years. There are precision guided firearms* on the market that account for all the variables associated with discharging a firearm (wind speed/direction, humidity, temperature, distance, target movement, etc.) and determine, electronically, the moment the bullet is fired when the shooter places the cross hairs in the correct location.

Precision Guided Firearms provide an advantage over traditional scopes. With a computerized scope the dedication required to become an accurate shooter is significantly diminished, and it gives shooters confidence to shoot from much greater distances. There is a risk that shooting wildlife from long distances reduces the hunter’s ability to track, find, and retrieve the harvested animal.* While these scopes are potentially a benefit for the recreational or competitive shooter, for hunting they are not considered by hunting stakeholders to fall within the principles of fair chase.

[Gun Dog]

I thought the ministry staff were watching too many Die-Hard movies but apparently these guns exist and are for sale.

Tracking Point (https://www.tracking-point.com/technology/how-it-works/)

Do they work outside of a demo? Who knows but if you buy one (for $10K - 17K US) be sure to post a review.

[David]

I still find it confusing... in fact the rationale confuses things even more....

Take the Sig BDX system:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InFt1ebRK9Q

Or the Burris Eliminator laser scope:
https://www.burrisoptics.com/scopes/eliminator-iii-laserscope

They do all the distance, windage, etc. calculations for you and put the red dot right where you need to aim.

So they do the "automatically adjusting the reticle" part of the regulation. However, because they are a scope and not part of the Firearm they DO NOT do the depress the trigger (when you depress the trigger the gun still fires, regardless of where you are pointing) and firearms discharges automatically part of the regulation.

So if they don't meet all parts of the regulation, they should be legal to use... EXCEPT... when you read the rationale it gets confusing again.

The rationale talks about "with a computerized scope" rather than a firearm. So which is it?

What makes matters worse is... the way the regulation is written it seems more like you're a fighter jet pilot - you lock on the target, depress the trigger, but the gun does NOT fire until the target is in your crosshairs. I don't know of a single firearm on the market that acts that way.

And of course, asking two COs is going to get me three opinions.

David

[David]

I thought the ministry staff were watching too many Die-Hard movies but apparently these guns exist and are for sale.

Tracking Point (https://www.tracking-point.com/technology/how-it-works/)

Do they work outside of a demo? Who knows but if you buy one (for $10K - 17K US) be sure to post a review.

Thanks... I was typing as you were responding.

Looks like rangefinder/scope combos are still legal. I'll write the ministry on Monday just to be sure.

David

[Gun Dog]

I should have mentioned that scope/firing computer has a cable and servo to press the trigger when the conditions are right. The regulations should have focused on the automatic trigger and not on the rangefinder and reticle. Set triggers are already banned for hunting (I think).

*A set trigger allows you to reduce the pull to hair trigger, usually by pushing it forward. It's used in competition to keep the trigger pull relatively safe until on target.

[bighornbob]

Down in Texas guys will set up a rifle that is aiming at a bait pile. The rifle can be controlled by a remote trigger an optics. There is a camera looking through the scope.

so the gun is in the field aiming at a bait pile and the “hunter” is sitting behind a computer some place else. He can see the crosshairs on his computer and he just has to hit a button on the keyboard to fire the gun once an animal steps into the crosshairs.

that is what is banned and why this is now a law.

bhb

[Retiredguy]

It's a good thing they got this regulation in place as I am sure there are thousands of hunters in BC that are just waiting to drop 20K on one of the new remote systems. Nothing like looking for reasons to put new laws in place before it is ever demonstrated that there is a problem, cuz God knows we don't have enough laws right now.

This makes me think that the Provincial Hunting and Trapping Advisory Team are digging for ways to justify their existence. For next year they better get cracking on new regs to prohibit disrupter beams and laser rifles as the US military is gaining ground on those and I am sure they will be in an easy to carry size soon.

[Gun Dog]

At least the Trudeau cabinet hasn't prohibited my phased plasma rifle.

[Keta1969]

It's a good thing they got this regulation in place as I am sure there are thousands of hunters in BC that are just waiting to drop 20K on one of the new remote systems. Nothing like looking for reasons to put new laws in place before it is ever demonstrated that there is a problem, cuz God knows we don't have enough laws right now.

This makes me think that the Provincial Hunting and Trapping Advisory Team are digging for ways to justify their existence. For next year they better get cracking on new regs to prohibit disrupter beams and laser rifles as the US military is gaining ground on those and I am sure they will be in an easy to carry size soon.

That's one way of looking at it. However technology always gets cheaper and better so I think they are just staying ahead of the game. In my opinion it's definitely not fair chase so might as well make it illegal now and save someone a few bucks.

[Downtown]

Frankly, I would not mind to have all Electronics enhancing a Shooting device banned for hunting purposes.

Hunting should not become a match of ever more sophisticated electronics against an Animal.

Cheers

[randymac]

At least the Trudeau cabinet hasn't prohibited my phased plasma rifle.
thats because its phased, you have to pull the trigger for each phase pulse. Its the auto phasing plasma rifles that will be on the next list.

[swampthing]

If you pull the trigger its legal. There was a lot of chatter about rangefinders being banned but calmer heads have prevailed. The sig bdx and burris eliminator are still legal. These systems are really no different than a turret scope or a ballistic reticle. They do give you an aiming point but like any system they require a large amount of time and bullets shot to set up the system.

[KodiakHntr]

Set triggers are already banned for hunting (I think).

*A set trigger allows you to reduce the pull to hair trigger, usually by pushing it forward. It's used in competition to keep the trigger pull relatively safe until on target.


You would be incorrect there.


Frankly, I would not mind to have all Electronics enhancing a Shooting device banned for hunting purposes.

Hunting should not become a match of ever more sophisticated electronics against an Animal.

Cheers

Which makes it a shame that spear hunting is illegal now. 400 000 year old technology rendered illegal by the stroke of a pen over something that is a non issue.
As a spear hunter who truly enjoys the challenge of closing to less than 10 yards on the ground after spring bears I am deeply saddened that this spring was the last one with spear in hand.