moose cull to save caribou?? wtf

[xcaribooer]

Below is a CBC News article regarding antlerless moose harvest.



Tom Koester, Secretary, Shuswap Region



Activist 'shocked, disappointed, disgusted' by province's move to increase antlerless moose hunt

Moose hunt increase would ultimately protect mountain caribou, province says

CBC News · Posted: Jun 09, 2020 4:48 PM PT | Last Updated: June 9

https://i.cbc.ca/1.3486695.1507943051!/fileImage/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/16x9_780/mama-and-her-calf.jpg

Dan Simmons says cow moose and calves are essential for moose populations, so they should never be hunted. (Brian Tucker)

26

comments

Advocates for ending the hunt of antlerless moose are concerned about a potential increase in the number of cow moose and calves that can be hunted and harvested in some parts of the province.

For the past five years, Dan Simmons has been leading the charge for the Cow Moose Sign project, which was created to inform others about the importance of antlerless moose. He has signed agreements with local First Nations, guide outfitters and local governments to ensure protection of the local cow moose population.

"The cow moose shouldn't be hunted at all, or the calf moose," he told Daybreak North host Carolina de Ryk.

"If we harvest antlerless moose, we're taking away from the population and it's clearly known throughout the province ... that the moose population is declining. So why would we kill antlerless moose?"

Moose calves rescued in northern B.C. are 'golden nuggets' to species survival, says researcher

​?Esdilagh First Nation partners with conservation officers to enforce ban on moose hunting

He said he was "shocked, disappointed, disgusted" to learn the provincial government is looking at an increase to the number of antlerless moose that could be hunted this year — official numbers are expected to be released in the coming days or weeks.

B.C.'s director of wildlife and habitat, Jennifer Psyllakis, said the proposed numbers for moose cow and calf tags are not significant over last year — in 2019, 357 authorizations were issued, and this year, the province is looking to increase that to 400. Of the 357 tags issued in 2019, 79 antlerless moose were killed.

Reducing predators of mountain caribou

Reducing the number of moose in particular areas is expected to reduce the number of wolves, which are threatening mountain caribou, according to the B.C. Ministry of Forests, Lands, Natural Resources and Rural Development.

"Mountain caribou recovery is a top priority for this government; it is a worthwhile trade-off to remove a few moose, a species whose population is secure throughout the northern hemisphere, if it assists in saving another species from extinction," the ministry said in an emailed statement.

Wolf attack prompts call for action from Port Edward mayor

First Nations partner with B.C., Canada to protect endangered caribou

"The number of authorizations that are being considered for antlerless moose are very localized, primarily in two areas of the province where caribou populations and herds are being actively managed for recovery," Psykallis said.

Logging is continuing on critical caribou habitat in B.C., study finds

"Almost all of the authorizations and all of the expected harvest is expected to occur within those very localized areas. The research that the province is working on is looking at multiple management actions that are aimed towards recovering caribou in these particular areas."

https://i.cbc.ca/1.4635881.1553216785!/fileImage/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/original_1180/b-c-caribou.jpg

Allowing people to hunt anterless moose will reduce the number of wolves in some areas, which in turn will help protect caribou, the province says. (British Columbia Forest Service/Canadian Press)

Simmons, however, doesn't believe that one species should be "sacrificed" to save another.

He said he and his supporters, including B.C. MLA Donna Barnett, will continue to fight this decision. The B.C. Liberal party has started an online petition to end the hunt on antlerless moose. As of Tuesday afternoon, it had garnered more than 2,300 signatures since it was launched four days before.

"I want [the provincial government] just to know that we're going to fight this to the end," Simmons said.

"We're going to try to stop this antlerless hunt.

[xcaribooer]

SOUND OFF: Logic behind government’s moose cull makes little sense

Jun 11, 2020

HOW WILL KILLING MOOSE CALVES AND MOTHERS save the endangered mountain caribou? This is a question on the minds of many British Columbians because and it’s the latest misguided step in the NDP government’s failed caribou recovery plan. Needless to say, the logic is a bit difficult to follow. The thinking behind declaring open season on baby moose and their mothers is as follows: our B.C. caribou populations are in worrying decline; wolves are one of the primary predators of our caribou; wolves also eat moose, so by killing more moose we will effectively reduce wolf populations and therefore save the caribou.

It doesn’t take a conservationist to understand why this plan is a bit flawed. I am by no means a wolf expert, but I don’t believe them to be very picky eaters. If a wolf can’t find a moose, I am sure they would be more than happy to hunt more caribou if need be, meaning that this plan runs the risk of backfiring and endangering our caribou populations even further. It is also a matter of ethics and whether this feels like the right action or not. I fully support controlled game hunting in this province, but there are so many other actions we could take to save caribou that are far more effective than killing moose calves and mothers.

But most importantly, this action is a contentious issue for so many British Columbians because it goes beyond just saving moose or even the caribou and highlights the growing regional divide in our province. Our rural communities are often ignored and kept away from the consultation table even on decisions that impact their regions. The caribou recovery plan has been a prime example of this.

Ever since they took office, the NDP have negotiated the caribou recovery plan behind closed doors, leaving northern MLAs and the public largely out of the consultation process. Even when the NDP finally opened public consultation and British Columbians expressed their deep concerns that the current caribou recovery plan would impact jobs and the economy in the North, the NDP steamed ahead with little consideration for what they were putting at risk.



Even when the BC Liberals introduced a petition of more than 12,000 signatures to the B.C. Legislature outlining their constituents’ disappointment with how John Horgan and the NDP were handling the consultation process, no meaningful action taken. The public consultation process was so poorly carried out that the NDP’s own appointed Community Liason resigned in protest.

This lack of transparency and community engagement is exactly why thousands of British Columbians have signed a petition to stop the NDP from allowing the culling of baby moose and their mothers.

If you would like to see this government listen to our communities and develop a plan that will effectively save our caribou, you can add your voice to the petition that I’ve linked to on my MLA Facebook page.

Let’s tell the NDP to listen to our communities and save the caribou — without sacrificing baby moose.

——

Editor’s Note: This opinion piece reflects the views of its author, and does not necessarily represent the views of CFJC Today or the Jim Pattison Broadcast Group.

[Redthies]

I started a thread about this over a week ago, it has about six pages of info, yet it has mysteriously disappeared????? WTF indeed!

[IronNoggin]

The related Petition:

https://www.change.org/p/premier-john-horgan-the-ndp-government-save-the-baby-moose-stop-john-horgan-s-plan

And yeah, I signed and shared it fairly widely...

Nog

[AllDay]

I would challenge anyone who feels strongly opposed to this subject to at least take a listen to this podcast as it provides a lot of information that may help people see why the cow/calf harvest could be justifiable and reasonable. It also clears up lots of misinformation that is being spread. I still don’t know where I lay on this subject but please listen to this Podcast to get a different view on this topic
https://thehunterconservationist.com/podcast/episode-24-moose-caribou-and-the-dead-cat-strategy/

[Harvest the Land]

Signed and shared. The BC NDP are completely incompetent and this has got to be one of their most asinine wildlife mgt proposals of all time (and they've accumulate a long list of dumb ideas). 2021 Election can't come soon enough. Wilkinson better step up his game. Maybe he should borrow Christy's hard hat and try to learn how to smile, or else we're all ****ed for another 4 years!

[AllDay]

Signed and shared. The BC NDP are completely incompetent and this has got to be one of their most asinine wildlife mgt proposals of all time (and they've accumulate a long list of dumb ideas). 2021 Election can't come soon enough. Wilkinson better step up his game. Maybe he should borrow Christy's hard hat and try to learn how to smile, or else we're all ****ed for another 4 years!

Hilarious because this plan was originally made by the liberals and now they are calling the NDP "unconscionable" for following the liberal plan. Don't mistake my frustration for NDP support. They are all crooked and this is politics, but to blame this solely on the NDP is ridiculous. The Liberals are the reason we are in this mess and the NDP is continuing the damage to our wildlife.

[Bubbacanuck]

I would challenge anyone who feels strongly opposed to this subject to at least take a listen to this podcast as it provides a lot of information that may help people see why the cow/calf harvest could be justifiable and reasonable. It also clears up lots of misinformation that is being spread. I still don’t know where I lay on this subject but please listen to this Podcast to get a different view on this topic
https://thehunterconservationist.com/podcast/episode-24-moose-caribou-and-the-dead-cat-strategy/


Agreed! Very interesting view on the topic.

[Ride Red]

I would challenge anyone who feels strongly opposed to this subject to at least take a listen to this podcast as it provides a lot of information that may help people see why the cow/calf harvest could be justifiable and reasonable. It also clears up lots of misinformation that is being spread. I still don’t know where I lay on this subject but please listen to this Podcast to get a different view on this topic
https://thehunterconservationist.com/podcast/episode-24-moose-caribou-and-the-dead-cat-strategy/

I listened to the podcast. Interesting conversation, but one problem still exists; too many wolves and reducing moose won’t fix the problem as the wolves will move onto caribou more once the moose population is reduced. Fix the problem by reducing the wolf population, period. Once and only once the wolf population has been brought under control can any other programs thought to work be implemented. Example; If Superstore closes, then everyone shifts to the next easiest grocery store, they don’t move out of town.

[g_worsnop]

Politics wins over science

[Harvest the Land]

Hilarious because this plan was originally made by the liberals and now they are calling the NDP "unconscionable" for following the liberal plan. Don't mistake my frustration for NDP support. They are all crooked and this is politics, but to blame this solely on the NDP is ridiculous. The Liberals are the reason we are in this mess and the NDP is continuing the damage to our wildlife.

I totally agree that both parties suck, and neither seems to give a f_ck about wildlife mgt & research. Although the BC Libs never banned the black bear hunt in the 90's, nor did they ban the Grizz hunt. Can you show me where I can read more about this originally being a plan made by the BC Liberals? I know they were the architects of the wolf culls, but did not know they were also the architects of any moose cull. Would love to read more about that.

Thanks in advance!

[butthead]

unlimited wolf season day night when ever
get rid of the wolfs

[m5wilson]

I have never understood this and likely will never be convinced it is a good idea. If the goal is to reduce wolves, kill wolves. Don't kill moose and wolves to reduce wolves. A cull of the wolves would make far more sense as others have stated wolves won't just give up, they will eat something else. Also wouldn't a quick death from a cull be more humane than starvation?

I do think that the caribou recovery is more complex than just wolves but in the short term that's likely the most detrimental factor.

[Redthies]

I’m going to ask the same damn question I asked in my disappearing thread... Why not relocate these moose? There are other regions with critically low moose populations!

[2chodi]

You can see the numbers from the 2004 and 2005 LEH Synopses - numbers went way down in 2006.

http://a100.gov.bc.ca/appsdata/acat/documents/r22560/leh_04_05_1377789038500_436a3014f0cc150d649a9b8be5 9569b1aae01d44e6ba683b99f42ecc0c1846a9.pdf

http://a100.gov.bc.ca/appsdata/acat/documents/r22560/leh_05_06-1_1377791308003_436a3014f0cc150d649a9b8be59569b1aa e01d44e6ba683b99f42ecc0c1846a9.pdf

[AllDay]

I totally agree that both parties suck, and neither seems to give a f_ck about wildlife mgt & research. Although the BC Libs never banned the black bear hunt in the 90's, nor did they ban the Grizz hunt. Can you show me where I can read more about this originally being a plan made by the BC Liberals? I know they were the architects of the wolf culls, but did not know they were also the architects of any moose cull. Would love to read more about that.

Thanks in advance!

Here is one article I could find by a journalist on this topic. I am sure if one went back and looked at the various LEH draws they could see that moose cow/calf harvest rates are actually down overall with the NDP. I just don’t have the time to research this topic that thoroughly right now.

https://www.castanet.net/news/Letters/302111/Letter-Prior-gov-t-mismanagement

[AllDay]

I’m going to ask the same damn question I asked in my disappearing thread... Why not relocate these moose? There are other regions with critically low moose populations!

I hear you there. I wonder if this would be feasible? I am sure moving a 300 lb “baby moose” would be an interesting venture!

And many people are right, there isn’t any conclusive evidence that this plan will work, but it does have scientific merit.

The question I am asking myself: is reducing a small amount of cow/calf moose in a sustainable way, in an area with a steadily increasing moose numbers (even after larger cow/calf harvest than the current one proposed) worth the risk to stop the woodland caribou from ending up on a museum?

[Harvest the Land]

Here is one article I could find by a journalist on this topic. I am sure if one went back and looked at the various LEH draws they could see that moose cow/calf harvest rates are actually down overall with the NDP. I just don’t have the time to research this topic that thoroughly right now.

https://www.castanet.net/news/Letters/302111/Letter-Prior-gov-t-mismanagement

Dude, this was an Op-ed letter written a week ago and it wasn't written by a journalist - it was written by the current NDP Minister of Forests and Natural Resources Doug Donaldson! Of course he's going to defend his govt's moose cull mgt policy.

Please show me where I can read more about the BC Libs moose cull policy when they were in power because I would like to educate myself and learn more about it. I've searched online and can't seem to find anything about a BC Liberal government moose cull.

[Walking Buffalo]

Hilarious because this plan was originally made by the liberals and now they are calling the NDP "unconscionable" for following the liberal plan. Don't mistake my frustration for NDP support. They are all crooked and this is politics, but to blame this solely on the NDP is ridiculous. The Liberals are the reason we are in this mess and the NDP is continuing the damage to our wildlife.

This is where history is important.

When the Liberals started their cull program, the theory had never been tried on the ground in real life.
The Liberals, as did the Conservative Alberta government at the same time, were desperate to avoid International public outcry if they killed wolves.
Biologists offered the theory of density dependant moose/wolf population management as a distant second to culling wolves for the purpose of protecting caribou.
The politicians went with number two.

Move forward ten years.

After several attempts to test the moose cull theory, it was learned that it did NOT work.
So the Liberal BC and Conservative Alberta governments stopped using it.

Now, the BC NDP, despite now knowing that this concept does not work, wants to do it again anyways....

[AllDay]

This is where history is important.

When the Liberals started their cull program, the theory had never been tried on the ground in real life.
The Liberals, as did the Conservative Alberta government at the same time, were desperate to avoid International public outcry if they killed wolves.
Biologists offered the theory of density dependant moose/wolf population management as a distant second to culling wolves for the purpose of protecting caribou.
The politicians went with number two.

Move forward ten years.

After several attempts to test the moose cull theory, it was learned that it did NOT work.
So the Liberal BC and Conservative Alberta governments stopped using it.

Now, the BC NDP, despite now knowing that this concept does not work, wants to do it again anyways....

Thank you for the history! Context is important, as I was not even hunting when this was all transpiring, so I am currently trying to learn about the various aspects.

From what I understood, culling wolves alone was not sufficient. I thought that it was only a combination of culling wolves, reducing moose, and maternal penning that resulted in the best results (increase of 4% per year of caribou). That being said, I have not done enough fact checking yet to determine the accuracy of the statement I have been told. The topic is very interesting though and I understand why people are concerned about the notion of killing the female and child of any game species, especially when said species is in large decline province wide.

[labguy]

Please show me where I can read more about the BC Libs moose cull policy when they were in power because I would like to educate myself and learn more about it. I've searched online and can't seem to find anything about a BC Liberal government moose cull.

This is not hard to find. The cull happened north of Revelstoke around Mica dam during the Liberals reign approximately 10 years ago. There is information buried on the second page and beyond when you google “moose cull”.

The cull failed partly because there was no wolf control that paralleled the moose cull. When the moose disappeared (there were gut piles every few hundred yards along the road to mica and up the gold river during the LE seasons) the wolves went after the goats on winter range and the few mule deer that were living in the area. The caribou that were supposed to benefit from the moose cull suffered predation as well.

If you are truly interested in that history it just takes a bit of effort. There has also been some lengthy discussion here on HBC on the subject in the past

[Walking Buffalo]

Thank you for the history! Context is important, as I was not even hunting when this was all transpiring, so I am currently trying to learn about the various aspects.

From what I understood, culling wolves alone was not sufficient. I thought that it was only a combination of culling wolves, reducing moose, and maternal penning that resulted in the best results (increase of 4% per year of caribou). That being said, I have not done enough fact checking yet to determine the accuracy of the statement I have been told. The topic is very interesting though and I understand why people are concerned about the notion of killing the female and child of any game species, especially when said species is in large decline province wide.


Recall in the now vaporized thread that I suggested you do some more learnin' before decided your opinion on the matter?

I told you this was ALL political... back then hunters were expressing to the current governments that this was stupid, but no one would listen.
CBC sure wouldn't write about the hunters' concerns back then....

I suggest you lay off the claims that hunters are picking on the NDP.
We have made the same assertions to ALL political parties.


Yes, you will have a VERY hard time using google and reading "journalist" articles to learn the history of culling wolves.

This has been a covert operation from the beginning.

I was the first person in Alberta, perhaps in BC too, to publicly reveal that these governments were killing moose to starve wolves to save caribou.
I was met with dumbfounded skepticism.
When I produced unpublished documents that connected the dots, people began to believe what I was saying.

Back in the early 2000's , the Caribou commission suggested culling wolves to save caribou.
Politicians said no, give us another option.
Bio's said, well, here is an unproven theory, we can try killing moose.
Politicians, yah, we'll use the hunters without their knowledge to kill moose.

So, moose tags were increased.... hunters did not know why, believing that the moose population was still be managed for stability.


Now we have several well researched studies that show culling moose does not help caribou.
Hunters are aware that the government will indeed prioritize politics over wildlife health and abuse the relationship with hunters, lie and use them..
This time, hunters are ready and willing to stand our ground.

[Redthies]

The Liberals were desperate to avoid International public outcry if they killed wolves.

Now, the BC NDP, despite now knowing that this concept does not work, wants to do it again anyways....

So here is the real problem... Our governments (both federal and provincial) are making decisions based on what the rest of the world thinks. Not on what is needed or even realistic for BC and Canada. There are far too many people that will “cry wolf” over most things that NEED to be done.

To move forward with the thought that taking a major food source for wolves out of the area, will DECREASE predation on the remaining species in the area is monumentally stupid. It doesn’t matter which party is in power when dumb is being lead by dumber.

[AllDay]

Walking Buffalo, thank you for the information you are taking the time to provide. I am actively looking into this issue. Part of actively looking into this issue for me also means conversing with hunters that have more experience than I do on this matter, so that I can gain greater insight. I fail to recognize why this is such an issue, as the majority of the facts I have mentioned are backed up by objective science. I will continue to converse on this matter, as well as conduct independent research, as that is how I learn best.

I also definitely understand why the idea of removing a food source may not seem like a bright option, as the wolves may move on to the next available food source: the caribou. Although the science on a combination approach of reducing wolves and reducing moose is not conclusive, the question is whether or not this experiment is worth the risk to save the caribou. I don't know the answer to that question.

Politics also determines that the easiest course of action is to reduce the moose because then you don't have to actually affect the forest industry or any of the other industries that are utilizing our resources. This is a problem created by politicians and a lack of a strong wildlife department. We should be asking for more independent management of our wildlife as the politicians clearly don't have the wildlife as their top priority.

I did not mean to convey that we shouldn't pick on the NDP. My thoughts are we should hold all politicians more accountable for their horrible wildlife management practices, including both the NDP and the Liberals.

[wideopenthrottle]

This is what needs to be thrown into the anti's face. When you talk about "lowering predator numbers" by killing their prey you are talking about starving them to death. This is a gutless and cruel way to control a population of any animal. If we had too many gophers in the field would we try to kill all the plants in the area to control them!!! Yet, instead of killing some wolves to get the ecosystem back to balance with good numbers, they expect to get hunters to kill large numbers of the prey animal to starve out the predator. So instead of keeping good numbers of prey animals and predators by quickly and humanely culling a few preds we are expected to buy into the idea of lowering multiple animal numbers.

The anti's also must be reminded that farmland can only exist because animal habitat was destroyed and the animals and wildlife that was there is now DEAD!!!

[Walking Buffalo]

Walking Buffalo, thank you for the information you are taking the time to provide. I am actively looking into this issue. Part of actively looking into this issue for me also means conversing with hunters that have more experience than I do on this matter, so that I can gain greater insight. I fail to recognize why this is such an issue, as the majority of the facts I have mentioned are backed up by objective science. I will continue to converse on this matter, as well as conduct independent research, as that is how I learn best.

I also definitely understand why the idea of removing a food source may not seem like a bright option, as the wolves may move on to the next available food source: the caribou. Although the science on a combination approach of reducing wolves and reducing moose is not conclusive, the question is whether or not this experiment is worth the risk to save the caribou. I don't know the answer to that question.

Politics also determines that the easiest course of action is to reduce the moose because then you don't have to actually affect the forest industry or any of the other industries that are utilizing our resources. This is a problem created by politicians and a lack of a strong wildlife department. We should be asking for more independent management of our wildlife as the politicians clearly don't have the wildlife as their top priority.

I did not mean to convey that we shouldn't pick on the NDP. My thoughts are we should hold all politicians more accountable for their horrible wildlife management practices, including both the NDP and the Liberals.

You say, "
the majority of the facts I have mentioned are backed up by objective science"
That's not true.
The research facts have shown that culling moose with or without wolf culling is not contributing to increased caribou survival.

You even go on to say "
the science on a combination approach of reducing wolves and reducing moose is not conclusive"....
So, now you say your facts are not conclusive....
I say the facts are conclusive, culling moose does not work.
Why keep hammering your thumb to see if maybe the next time it will be a good idea?

I provided the scientific facts showing that culling moose does not work.
You are just providing a weakening rhetorical rebuttal apparently in an effort to maintain part of your initial opinion.

Time to let it go.

The caribou issue is MUCH more complicated than just potential wolf/moose parasitic symbiosis.
Governments know what they need to do if the objective is to protect these herds.
The NDP plan is nothing more than a old stinkin' herring they pulled out from the gut bin.

[REMINGTON JIM]

You have to be a MORON if you Believe THIS Idea of there's is gonna Work ! :-( jmo RJ

[Bugle M In]

You have to be a MORON if you Believe THIS Idea of there's is gonna Work ! :-( jmo RJ

Yup, looks nice on paper in "concept".
Reality doesn't always work that way however, even if science is used.
Think they call it the "chaos factor"??????

This is all about how a government looks in the publics eyes and based on retaining votes.
It isn't about doing the right thing.

[AllDay]

Well, here is a peer reviewed article that studied the effect of reducing wolves alone vs reducing moose and wolves. The study shows that reducing wolves alone was not sufficient in increasing caribou survival rate,, but reducing moose and wolves did allow for an increase in caribou survival rate and a decrease in wolf density in caribou habitat. While I do respect and appreciate the information and experience you provide, I also strongly believe in objective science as a tool to manage wildlife.

https://cmu.abmi.ca/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/Serrouya-et-al-2017-Experimental-moose-reduction-lowers-wolf-density-and-stops-decline-of-endangered-caribou.pdf (https://cmu.abmi.ca/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/Serrouya-et-al-2017-Experimental-moose-reduction-lowers-wolf-density-and-stops-decline-of-endangered-caribou.pdf)

[Redthies]

Well, here is a peer reviewed article that studied the effect of reducing wolves alone vs reducing moose and wolves. The study shows that reducing wolves alone was not sufficient in increasing caribou survival rate,, but reducing moose and wolves did allow for an increase in caribou survival rate and a decrease in wolf density in caribou habitat. While I do respect and appreciate the information and experience you provide, I also strongly believe in objective science as a tool to manage wildlife.

https://cmu.abmi.ca/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/Serrouya-et-al-2017-Experimental-moose-reduction-lowers-wolf-density-and-stops-decline-of-endangered-caribou.pdf (https://cmu.abmi.ca/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/Serrouya-et-al-2017-Experimental-moose-reduction-lowers-wolf-density-and-stops-decline-of-endangered-caribou.pdf)



Ok. So do an LEH on cow/calf and a bounty on wolves. Doing one without the other is ridiculous.

[Redthies]

Doing one without the other is ridiculous.


Oh, right. We are talking about government...

[AllDay]

Ok. So do an LEH on cow/calf and a bounty on wolves. Doing one without the other is ridiculous.

I completely agree! I think they should put a bounty on wolves so trappers, GOS, and residents have more incentive for reducing the wolf population. They are reducing wolves in conjunction with the moose cow/calf LEH in the Revelstoke area though from what I understand. This is just the evidence to back up opening a cow/calf season in addition to the wolf culling.

[wideopenthrottle]

even if stripping the land of major wildlife worked. how long would the effect last....dogs breed faster than any ungulate so recovery of preds would be faster than prey

[gcreek]

I totally agree that both parties suck, and neither seems to give a f_ck about wildlife mgt & research. Although the BC Libs never banned the black bear hunt in the 90's, nor did they ban the Grizz hunt. Can you show me where I can read more about this originally being a plan made by the BC Liberals? I know they were the architects of the wolf culls, but did not know they were also the architects of any moose cull. Would love to read more about that.

Thanks in advance!

I am more inclined to believe this pipe dream was created by a bureaucrat and sold to a few bunny hugging MLAs than put a political name to it. Too bad we can’t fire idiots from these positions without a huge severance package.

[gcreek]

Recall in the now vaporized thread that I suggested you do some more learnin' before decided your opinion on the matter?

I told you this was ALL political... back then hunters were expressing to the current governments that this was stupid, but no one would listen.
CBC sure wouldn't write about the hunters' concerns back then....

I suggest you lay off the claims that hunters are picking on the NDP.
We have made the same assertions to ALL political parties.


Yes, you will have a VERY hard time using google and reading "journalist" articles to learn the history of culling wolves.

This has been a covert operation from the beginning.

I was the first person in Alberta, perhaps in BC too, to publicly reveal that these governments were killing moose to starve wolves to save caribou.
I was met with dumbfounded skepticism.
When I produced unpublished documents that connected the dots, people began to believe what I was saying.

Back in the early 2000's , the Caribou commission suggested culling wolves to save caribou.
Politicians said no, give us another option.
Bio's said, well, here is an unproven theory, we can try killing moose.
Politicians, yah, we'll use the hunters without their knowledge to kill moose.

So, moose tags were increased.... hunters did not know why, believing that the moose population was still be managed for stability.


Now we have several well researched studies that show culling moose does not help caribou.
Hunters are aware that the government will indeed prioritize politics over wildlife health and abuse the relationship with hunters, lie and use them..
This time, hunters are ready and willing to stand our ground.


You say, "
the majority of the facts I have mentioned are backed up by objective science
"
That's not true.
The research facts have shown that culling moose with or without wolf culling is not contributing to increased caribou survival.

You even go on to say "
the science on a combination approach of reducing wolves and reducing moose is not conclusive
"....
So, now you say your facts are not conclusive....
I say the facts are conclusive, culling moose does not work.
Why keep hammering your thumb to see if maybe the next time it will be a good idea?

I provided the scientific facts showing that culling moose does not work.
You are just providing a weakening rhetorical rebuttal apparently in an effort to maintain part of your initial opinion.

Time to let it go.

The caribou issue is MUCH more complicated than just potential wolf/moose parasitic symbiosis.
Governments know what they need to do if the objective is to protect these herds.
The NDP plan is nothing more than a old stinkin' herring they pulled out from the gut bin.


You have to be a MORON if you Believe THIS Idea of there's is gonna Work ! :-( jmo RJ


I’m going to ask the same damn question I asked in my disappearing thread... Why not relocate these moose? There are other regions with critically low moose populations!

It is still cheaper to deal with the predators than moving one reduced population of moose to another reduced population area. Far more effective too.

Let’s not forget the BCWF is in support of this idiocy to create more opportunity to hunters.

[180grainer]

So they think killing more moose will lower the wolf population so the wolves won't have as big an impact on the Caribou population? I wonder if they considered all those starving wolves who would have otherwise ate a moose, will now eat a caribou?

[REMINGTON JIM]

So they think killing more moose will lower the wolf population so the wolves won't have as big an impact on the Caribou population? I wonder if they considered all those starving wolves who would have otherwise ate a moose, will now eat a caribou?

Apparantly the STUPID think not ! WOW ! and there educated too ! :razz: RJ

[gcreek]

180, let’s not forget wolves also eat deer, elk, sheep, livestock and pets.

[Redthies]

Apparantly the STUPID think not ! WOW ! and there educated too ! :razz: RJ

Geez RJ......

[338win mag]

So they think killing more moose will lower the wolf population so the wolves won't have as big an impact on the Caribou population? I wonder if they considered all those starving wolves who would have otherwise ate a moose, will now eat a caribou?
This makes perfect sense to me....no Moose, no Caribou, lots of Wolves....=....no GOS...no LEH....no hunting except for...

[XPEIer]

there will not be ANY cow / calf moose harvested if we as hunters do NOT apply for the LEH!!! So, you want to stop this practice, dont apply for the hunt,,, lets spread that message more than spending time bashing who came up with the dumb idea.

XPEIER

[gcreek]

there will not be ANY cow / calf moose harvested if we as hunters do NOT apply for the LEH!!! So, you want to stop this practice, dont apply for the hunt,,, lets spread that message more than spending time bashing who came up with the dumb idea.

XPEIER

There are still those who will apply for and get an LEH. They will use the tags because they can.

[REMINGTON JIM]

180, let’s not forget wolves also eat deer, elk, sheep, livestock and pets.

along with the Black and Grizzly bears too ! RJ

[tomcat]

And, also cougars!

[IronNoggin]

there will not be ANY cow / calf moose harvested if we as hunters do NOT apply for the LEH!!! So, you want to stop this practice, dont apply for the hunt,,,

There is an informal program underway in Alberta termed the Save A Doe campaign.
In essence, the government issues far more doe tags (mulies in this case) than could ever be considered sustainable. All part and parcel of their intentional destruction of the southern mulie herds in the name of CWD.
Locals apply for the the tags when on LEH. Or buy them when they are cross-counter tags.
Then burn them.

I believe this is the route we should go in this case here.
I did apply, and I will burn them if I get "Lucky"...

Save a moose calf / cow campaign anyone?

Nog

[Iron.Bender]

Good post Iron Noggin

[pro 111]

100% you are right. Bunch of total f***ing idiots.
Signed and shared. The BC NDP are completely incompetent and this has got to be one of their most asinine wildlife mgt proposals of all time (and they've accumulate a long list of dumb ideas). 2021 Election can't come soon enough. Wilkinson better step up his game. Maybe he should borrow Christy's hard hat and try to learn how to smile, or else we're all ****ed for another 4 years!

[Ride Red]

There are still those who will apply for and get an LEH. They will use the tags because they can.

Absolutely true. Can we just shoot the wolves already, this thread is going nowhere. :(

[Bugle M In]

Ok. So do an LEH on cow/calf and a bounty on wolves. Doing one without the other is ridiculous.

This^^^^^^^.

[180grainer]

This makes perfect sense to me....no Moose, no Caribou, lots of Wolves....=....no GOS...no LEH....no hunting except for...
That's exactly what they're doing. Decrease in hunting, leads to a decrease in hunters, leads to a decrease in people with firearms, leads to a decrease in political strength to deal with events like the current one enacted by the CSR Trudeau to ensure Canadians have access to firearms. Said it many times. Marxism permeates all levels of our society now, thanks predominantly to our universities turning out dirt bags like the ones that would come up with a "moose cull".

[Ride Red]

Ok. So do an LEH on cow/calf and a bounty on wolves. Doing one without the other is ridiculous.

^^^^ This is ridiculous. Cull the wolves, period.

[180grainer]

So, who are the "People" advocating for a moose cull? Says the Province which is misleading. There are people behind this agenda. Who are they? Anyone know? And if we don't know, why don't we know? These people should step forward along with their rationale. I'd like to know who they are.

Will the BCWF make a FOIA request to obtain the research they are relying on, and who is advocating and asking the Province to cull moose in favor of Caribou or culling wolves?

[AllDay]

So, who are the "People" advocating for a moose cull? Says the Province which is misleading. There are people behind this agenda. Who are they? Anyone know? And if we don't know, why don't we know? These people should step forward along with their rationale. I'd like to know who they are.

Here is an objective scientific study showing the results of a wolf only cull vs a wolf cull and moose reduction (and their effect on the caribou). Culling wolves alone did not produce any increase in caribou survival, but culling wolves along with reducing moose population did result in an increase of caribou survival. Reducing moose and culling wolves also resulted in a decrease of wolf density in the caribou habitat.

Science doesn't always tell you what you want to hear, but those are the facts from an exhaustive study on this issue specifically. This isn't some conspiracy. This is the result of biologists studying an issue that is important to them: the extinction of the woodland caribou.

Unfortunately, terrible management practices and the gross extraction of our natural resources has resulted in this situation. This is a problem created by politicians of both political parties (Liberals and NDP). This plan was originally created when the Liberals were in power too, FYI (with a much greater cow/calf harvest than the one currently proposed). The fact that the Liberals are now trying to treat hunters like morons and turn hunters against the "NDP plan to kill baby moose", which is the plan that the Liberal's originally made, is extremely disrespectful to hunters and shows you how spineless these politicians are.

Here is the article, which was published in a respected scientific journal (this means that this article was reviewed by other experts in the field, and the data was validified before being published). Published articles are the gold standard of scientific research. If your article is not published, it is basically just speculation. The article published here, on this specific matter, is the result of high quality research conducted by biologists, and their conclusions have made it through the scrutinization of non-affiliated experts in the specified field.

https://cmu.abmi.ca/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/Serrouya-et-al-2017-Experimental-moose-reduction-lowers-wolf-density-and-stops-decline-of-endangered-caribou.pdf

[gcreek]

Here is an objective scientific study showing the results of a wolf only cull vs a wolf cull and moose reduction (and their effect on the caribou). Culling wolves alone did not produce any increase in caribou survival, but culling wolves along with reducing moose population did result in an increase of caribou survival. Reducing moose and culling wolves also resulted in a decrease of wolf density in the caribou habitat.

Science doesn't always tell you what you want to hear, but those are the facts from an exhaustive study on this issue specifically. This isn't some conspiracy. This is the result of biologists studying an issue that is important to them: the extinction of the woodland caribou.

Unfortunately, terrible management practices and the gross extraction of our natural resources has resulted in this situation. This is a problem created by politicians of both political parties (Liberals and NDP). This plan was originally created when the Liberals were in power too, FYI (with a much greater cow/calf harvest than the one currently proposed). The fact that the Liberals are now trying to treat hunters like morons and turn hunters against the "NDP plan to kill baby moose", which is the plan that the Liberal's originally made, is extremely disrespectful to hunters and shows you how spineless these politicians are.

Here is the article, which was published in a respected scientific journal (this means that this article was reviewed by other experts in the field, and the data was validified before being published). Published articles are the gold standard of scientific research. If your article is not published, it is basically just speculation. The article published here, on this specific matter, is the result of high quality research conducted by biologists, and their conclusions have made it through the scrutinization of non-affiliated experts in the specified field.

https://cmu.abmi.ca/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/Serrouya-et-al-2017-Experimental-moose-reduction-lowers-wolf-density-and-stops-decline-of-endangered-caribou.pdf


This is kind of like tying all four legs up on a frog, making a loud noise in an attempt to make it jump and claiming it has gone deaf.

Those with an agenda can spout off anything. The only thing the moose and caribou have in common in this immediate area is that wolves and grizzlies have decimated both populations. Prove me wrong............

[gcreek]

So, who are the "People" advocating for a moose cull? Says the Province which is misleading. There are people behind this agenda. Who are they? Anyone know? And if we don't know, why don't we know? These people should step forward along with their rationale. I'd like to know who they are.

Will the BCWF make a FOIA request to obtain the research they are relying on, and who is advocating and asking the Province to cull moose in favor of Caribou or culling wolves?

Call me a whack job if you will. Take away the wildlife and you won’t have to hunt, take away the hunt and there is no need for guns, take away your guns and you become a ward of the state. One World Order.........

[AllDay]

This is kind of like tying all four legs up on a frog, making a loud noise in an attempt to make it jump and claiming it has gone deaf.

Those with an agenda can spout off anything. The only thing the moose and caribou have in common in this immediate area is that wolves and grizzlies have decimated both populations. Prove me wrong............

You are right that predators kill prey. But the prey would have more defence mechanisms if the resources weren’t scourged from the earth. I’m not disagreeing with you on the fact that predators are the problem. I just prefer to use science to guide wildlife management. If we don’t use science, we shouldn’t call other groups emotional when they say they don’t want any predators killed because of reasons “x,y, and z”. Is reducing a percentage of an increasing moose population (in a selective area) not worth the risk to attempt to save the caribou? A few years ago everyone was yelling about the grizzly bear hunt ban being an emotional / social response and that it was not based on science. Saying that reducing a small number of moose in conjunction with reducing wolves does not work is an emotional and unscientific claim because the experts in these matters have determined that that has been successful. If people want to use the same methods (appealing to emotion by calling 300 lb calves babies, calling hunters that harvest these animals unconscionable, spreading misinformation, etc.) than go ahead, but that is not what I am going to do. This may prove to be a fruitless venture for the caribou, but the science supports the decision right now to harvest moose calf/cows.

[Ride Red]

You are right that predators kill prey. But the prey would have more defence mechanisms if the resources weren’t scourged from the earth. I’m not disagreeing with you on the fact that predators are the problem. I just prefer to use science to guide wildlife management. If we don’t use science, we shouldn’t call other groups emotional when they say they don’t want any predators killed because of reasons “x,y, and z”. Is reducing a percentage of an increasing moose population (in a selective area) not worth the risk to attempt to save the caribou? A few years ago everyone was yelling about the grizzly bear hunt ban being an emotional / social response and that it was not based on science. Saying that reducing a small number of moose in conjunction with reducing wolves does not work is an emotional and unscientific claim because the experts in these matters have determined that that has been successful. If people want to use the same methods (appealing to emotion by calling 300 lb calves babies, calling hunters that harvest these animals unconscionable, spreading misinformation, etc.) than go ahead, but that is not what I am going to do. This may prove to be a fruitless venture for the caribou, but the science supports the decision right now to harvest moose calf/cows.

How about we do what has worked in the past first; cull the wolves. Then and only then should we be looking at alternative measures to slow moose population growth “if it is deemed a problem”. Moose and caribou have cohabitated for eons without issue, why the big fuss now? Cause the fuzzy puppy lovers are pushing so hard on our inept provincial government and they’re afraid to lose votes.

Allday, I’ve asked before without an answer, so I’ll ask again. How many years have you spent with boots on the ground in BC? How many areas have you hunted/hiked that you can recall changes personally? Ie: game numbers, predator numbers, environmental changes.

[gcreek]

You are right that predators kill prey. But the prey would have more defence mechanisms if the resources weren’t scourged from the earth. I’m not disagreeing with you on the fact that predators are the problem. I just prefer to use science to guide wildlife management. If we don’t use science, we shouldn’t call other groups emotional when they say they don’t want any predators killed because of reasons “x,y, and z”. Is reducing a percentage of an increasing moose population (in a selective area) not worth the risk to attempt to save the caribou? A few years ago everyone was yelling about the grizzly bear hunt ban being an emotional / social response and that it was not based on science. Saying that reducing a small number of moose in conjunction with reducing wolves does not work is an emotional and unscientific claim because the experts in these matters have determined that that has been successful. If people want to use the same methods (appealing to emotion by calling 300 lb calves babies, calling hunters that harvest these animals unconscionable, spreading misinformation, etc.) than go ahead, but that is not what I am going to do. This may prove to be a fruitless venture for the caribou, but the science supports the decision right now to harvest moose calf/cows.

Would science say if your favourite grocery store closed that you would move or just starve to death or shop elsewhere?

[180grainer]

Here is the article, which was published in a respected scientific journal (this means that this article was reviewed by other experts in the field, and the data was validified before being published). Published articles are the gold standard of scientific research. If your article is not published, it is basically just speculation. The article published here, on this specific matter, is the result of high quality research conducted by biologists, and their conclusions have made it through the scrutinization of non-affiliated experts in the specified field.

https://cmu.abmi.ca/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/Serrouya-et-al-2017-Experimental-moose-reduction-lowers-wolf-density-and-stops-decline-of-endangered-caribou.pdf
So I hear what you're saying. Unfortunately, this is one study. It was submitted and then printed within 3 months. That's rigorous peer review is it? It's far from the definitive word on the matter. Seems counter intuitive and, at the moment, I'll go with my gut, and look at this as just another step in the slow burn down in the ability of British Colombians.........Canadians, to hunt. This didn't start today. It started in earnest about 3 decades ago. Less and less money for wildlife. What these people are trying to do is a granola solution. They don't want a hardcore wolf cull. You either, get in there and helicopter shoot wolf packs, or you open it up to a bounty and allow hunters to flip the bill. Leave the moose alone. Moose Lives Matter

[338win mag]

So I hear what you're saying. Unfortunately, this is one study. It was submitted and then printed within 3 months. That's rigorous peer review is it? It's far from the definitive word on the matter. Seems counter intuitive and, at the moment, I'll go with my gut, and look at this as just another step in the slow burn down in the ability of British Colombians.........Canadians, to hunt. This didn't start today. It started in earnest about 3 decades ago. Less and less money for wildlife. What these people are trying to do is a granola solution. They don't want a hardcore wolf cull. You either, get in there and helicopter shoot wolf packs, or you open it up to a bounty and allow hunters to flip the bill. Leave the moose alone. Moose Lives Matter
Yup........

[mpotzold]

This is kind of like tying all four legs up on a frog, making a loud noise in an attempt to make it jump and claiming it has gone deaf.

Those with an agenda can spout off anything. The only thing the moose and caribou have in common in this immediate area is that wolves and grizzlies have decimated both populations. Prove me wrong............

No doubt both are a factor in the declining numbers of both.
In 5-03 & surrounding regions the bear populations have drastically increased over the last dozen years or so & the moose & probably caribou have steadily declined. Based on our observations & other hunters & locals.
They also attribute the dwindling numbers to night hunting & indiscriminate year round slaughter.
Bears are very efficient newborn killers be it moose or caribou. Their sense of smell is about 20x greater than that of a wolf.

Never seen or heard wolves in the 5-03 & immediate surrounding areas until about 8 to 10 years ago. Late at night I called in a big pack of wolves that were still around at day break.
Close to camp they tried to catch a big deer that was sleeping but were unsuccessful(snow evidence)

Moose hunting near Germansen was surrounded by a large pack of wolves in the evening shortly after about a 6" snow dump. They circled my vehicle & the open shack where I was staying but left me alone. I was ready!
Next morning learned by the fresh tracks that they were after 2 moose -probably a cow & a calf.

Not that far from the area LT(LOVER 308 ) & I came across a freshly killed large moose by the lake but the huge grizz decided to run away instead of charging. We were ready.

[Bugle M In]

This is kind of like tying all four legs up on a frog, making a loud noise in an attempt to make it jump and claiming it has gone deaf.

Those with an agenda can spout off anything. The only thing the moose and caribou have in common in this immediate area is that wolves and grizzlies have decimated both populations. Prove me wrong............

I have to agree with you.

Before any type of "alternate plan" is considered, such as removing Moose.
Shouldn't it be obvious to actually take the 1st step and remove wolves etc.
Then, and only then, if there are issues still, then we can look at alternates to help??

I get that with issues such as this thread, that much of the time, it is several factors that lead to issues and then become the problems we see.
Which one then has to think there needs to be several plans put in place and used.

But when you don't use the first one, pred control, I have no idea how it can be "skipped" and move right onto "Moose control"???
And that's the issue here.

[IronNoggin]

So, who are the "People" advocating for a moose cull?

Jesse Zeeman of the BCWF for one.

Here is his latest "defense" of this matter on FaceBook:

"Are you a number 1 or a number 2?

1) "I want science-based wildlife management"

2) "No one should hunt mommies and baby moose"

If you find yourself thinking or saying number 2 at any time, you can't be a number 1.

If you eat meat you should recognize the steak you buy in the store is from 18 months old 'baby' steers and heifers, the pork you buy is from a 6 months old pig, meat chickens live 6-9 weeks, and finally the eggs you eat are, well eggs.

The fish you catch and the ones you buy are mommies, daddies, and babies, the halibut and cod you buy in stores are often 'babies', and for a number of species you hunt/trap it is extremely hard to separate the differences in sex. So whether you buy your meat or hunt and fish for it, you eat 'mommies and babies'.

If you find yourself in the number two camp, but you're eating or buying steak, pork, eggs, fish, bears, deer, or moose, it's time for a reality check.

You should also consider, if you were opposed to closing grizzly bear hunting and you said "we want science", and you're now saying "no one should hunt mommies and baby moose", you're in the same camp as the anti-hunting movement.

Hunters don't need enemies, when they have 'friends' like this."

https://www.facebook.com/jesse.zeman.3/posts/10163596550385401


I simply reacted with "NOT buying in Jesse".

Form your own opinions. I have, and am sticking by them.

Nog

[gcreek]

Jesse Zeeman of the BCWF for one.

Here is his latest "defense" of this matter on FaceBook:

"Are you a number 1 or a number 2?

1) "I want science-based wildlife management"

2) "No one should hunt mommies and baby moose"

If you find yourself thinking or saying number 2 at any time, you can't be a number 1.

If you eat meat you should recognize the steak you buy in the store is from 18 months old 'baby' steers and heifers, the pork you buy is from a 6 months old pig, meat chickens live 6-9 weeks, and finally the eggs you eat are, well eggs.

The fish you catch and the ones you buy are mommies, daddies, and babies, the halibut and cod you buy in stores are often 'babies', and for a number of species you hunt/trap it is extremely hard to separate the differences in sex. So whether you buy your meat or hunt and fish for it, you eat 'mommies and babies'.

If you find yourself in the number two camp, but you're eating or buying steak, pork, eggs, fish, bears, deer, or moose, it's time for a reality check.

You should also consider, if you were opposed to closing grizzly bear hunting and you said "we want science", and you're now saying "no one should hunt mommies and baby moose", you're in the same camp as the anti-hunting movement.

Hunters don't need enemies, when they have 'friends' like this."

https://www.facebook.com/jesse.zeman.3/posts/10163596550385401


I simply reacted with "NOT buying in Jesse".

Form your own opinions. I have, and am sticking by them.

Nog


Hahaha, I’m not allowed to go to that page any more, must have really struck a nerve. Their loss.

Thanks Matt for carrying the torch.

[gcreek]

I have to agree with you.

Before any type of "alternate plan" is considered, such as removing Moose.
Shouldn't it be obvious to actually take the 1st step and remove wolves etc.
Then, and only then, if there are issues still, then we can look at alternates to help??

I get that with issues such as this thread, that much of the time, it is several factors that lead to issues and then become the problems we see.
Which one then has to think there needs to be several plans put in place and used.

But when you don't use the first one, pred control, I have no idea how it can be "skipped" and move right onto "Moose control"???
And that's the issue here.

We agreed on something! Hopefully Hell not freezing over tomorrow.

i am very thankful so many are coming to the realization that what I have observed over the last 40 years is actually happening.

Now let’s save some ungulates from those with a death wish for them.

[LBM]

Jesse Zeeman of the BCWF for one.

Here is his latest "defense" of this matter on FaceBook:

"Are you a number 1 or a number 2?

1) "I want science-based wildlife management"

2) "No one should hunt mommies and baby moose"

If you find yourself thinking or saying number 2 at any time, you can't be a number 1.

If you eat meat you should recognize the steak you buy in the store is from 18 months old 'baby' steers and heifers, the pork you buy is from a 6 months old pig, meat chickens live 6-9 weeks, and finally the eggs you eat are, well eggs.

The fish you catch and the ones you buy are mommies, daddies, and babies, the halibut and cod you buy in stores are often 'babies', and for a number of species you hunt/trap it is extremely hard to separate the differences in sex. So whether you buy your meat or hunt and fish for it, you eat 'mommies and babies'.

If you find yourself in the number two camp, but you're eating or buying steak, pork, eggs, fish, bears, deer, or moose, it's time for a reality check.

You should also consider, if you were opposed to closing grizzly bear hunting and you said "we want science", and you're now saying "no one should hunt mommies and baby moose", you're in the same camp as the anti-hunting movement.

Hunters don't need enemies, when they have 'friends' like this."

https://www.facebook.com/jesse.zeman.3/posts/10163596550385401


I simply reacted with "NOT buying in Jesse".

Form your own opinions. I have, and am sticking by them.

Nog

Sounds so similar to when they implemented the whitetail doe season in the EK funny how so many on here supported that but was not for it either.

[Retiredguy]

The quote from Jesse Zeeman in BCWF. After a wonderfully patronizing and obnoxious statement like that, I can't imagine why anyone would pay attention to anything he says. No wonder the BCWF has slid so far in the last couple of decades if this is any indication of the individuals running it.

With everything I see happening these days on social media and the continuous knee jerk reactions I see to the "on-line" attacks by politicians, bureaucrats and corporate boards...well I just keep thinking that social media is going to be the end of us. One thing is for sure, the less I have to do with it the better I feel.

[gcreek]

The quote from Jesse Zeeman in BCWF. After a wonderfully patronizing and obnoxious statement like that, I can't imagine why anyone would pay attention to anything he says. No wonder the BCWF has slid so far in the last couple of decades if this is any indication of the individuals running it.

With everything I see happening these days on social media and the continuous knee jerk reactions I see to the "on-line" attacks by politicians, bureaucrats and corporate boards...well I just keep thinking that social media is going to be the end of us. One thing is for sure, the less I have to do with it the better I feel.


You are likely right about social media, however, knowledge is not a bad thing. We only need to strain the soup to keep the meat and potatoes.

While I do find the Liberal ads about “baby moose” a little over the top, one does wonder just how gullible BCWF thinks it’s membership is.

[Ride Red]

https://www.thechronicleherald.ca/opinion/opinion-latest-survey-shows-cape-breton-moose-cull-was-a-mistake-326432/

Not just BC, have a read.

[Ride Red]

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10163522665015401&id=796115400

Jump on to read.

[180grainer]

You know absolutely that when the moose population gets decimated, the first thing that will happen is the government will shut down resident moose hunting or seriously reduce it, due to First Nations concerns about their ability to sustenance hunt. That will increase the hostility between us and the FN because the "Government" decided to have all the moose shot. The FN and Resident hunters of this province could probably have some of the most awesome moose hunting around, if Government policy was about having abundant hunt-able wildlife populations as the goal.

[srupp]

You know absolutely that when the moose population gets decimated, the first thing that will happen is the government will shut down resident moose hunting or seriously reduce it, due to First Nations concerns about their ability to sustenance hunt. That will increase the hostility between us and the FN because the "Government" decided to have all the moose shot. The FN and Resident hunters of this province could probably have some of the most awesome moose hunting around, if Government policy was about having abundant hunt-able wildlife populations as the goal.

Hmm absolutely agree..
Srupp

[Redthies]

There is an informal program underway in Alberta termed the Save A Doe campaign.
In essence, the government issues far more doe tags (mulies in this case) than could ever be considered sustainable. All part and parcel of their intentional destruction of the southern mulie herds in the name of CWD.
Locals apply for the the tags when on LEH. Or buy them when they are cross-counter tags.
Then burn them.

I believe this is the route we should go in this case here.
I did apply, and I will burn them if I get "Lucky"...

Save a moose calf / cow campaign anyone?

Nog

You best not actually “burn” the tags. Remember you need to carry ALL your tags with you, cut or not these days.

[HighCountryBC]

This is not a "moose cull". Far from it.

Jesse has been open about sharing facts, not hearsay. It's disappointing to see all of the misinformation and outright lies from the usual suspects talking in circles and getting the uninformed stirred up. There is a small increase in tags in one area. An area that has seen the moose population increase 55% in 2 years and has heavy wolf reduction going on.

Hunters cried for science-based management when the grizzly hunt was shut down. Can't cherry pick when science doesn't align with your socially-motivated stance.

[180grainer]

This is not a "moose cull". Far from it.

Jesse has been open about sharing facts, not hearsay. It's disappointing to see all of the misinformation and outright lies from the usual suspects talking in circles and getting the uninformed stirred up. There is a small increase in tags in one area. An area that has seen the moose population increase 55% in 2 years and has heavy wolf reduction going on.

Hunters cried for science-based management when the grizzly hunt was shut down. Can't cherry pick when science doesn't align with your socially-motivated stance.
Science says, if you kill the predators, the prey populations will increase. What's not to get about that? The only reason a moose cull is being proposed is because it's politically unpalatable to be seen killing a high percentage of the wolves in that area. A moose cull to indirectly affect the wolf population, so the predation of Caribou is less, is a means around the "science" that says "directly" eliminating the wolves is the most effective practice. This is not science. It's politics. We know how to save those Caribou. Kill a high percentage of wolves in that area.

We do not actively manage predators in this province at all. It's a huge problem. And it's a political one.

[HighCountryBC]

Science says, if you kill the predators, the prey populations will increase. What's not to get about that? The only reason a moose cull is being proposed is because it's politically unpalatable to be seen killing a high percentage of the wolves in that area. A moose cull to indirectly affect the wolf population, so the predation of Caribou is less, is a means around the "science" that says "directly" eliminating the wolves is the most effective practice. This is not science. It's politics. We know how to save those Caribou. Kill a high percentage of wolves in that area.

And a high percentage of wolves are being removed. Antlerless harvest is a piece of managing wildlife populations across every jurisdiction in North America. People have been stirred into a frenzy over the term "moose cull" which is not even remotely close to what this is. It's an increase of a handful of tags in one area that is seeing heavy wolf reduction as well.

Using terms like "mommies and their babies" is what anti's do.

[Mulehahn]

The thing is science is two parts. The theory and the experiment. Lots of people have gone to great lengths to espouse the theory behind this, including Jesse. The problem is that this exact same theory has been put into practice in other areas and the outcome was dismal. The theory did not work.

"The*definition of Stupidity*is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results"

Killing moose results in wolves targeting more caribou, this has been proven. Killing wolves results more ungulates which buys time but will still result in the exterpation of the caribou, it will just take longer. The only hope for the caribou is habitat. Caribou habitat is not moose habitat. Caribou cannot adapt to living in proximity to humans, this has been proven by science. To save the caribou you have to stop mining, logging, houses, roads, and monoculture planting. Inshort, you would have to sacrifice countless jobs, unfathomable money, and more. If we aren't willing to do that then have to decide when is a good time to met them disappear forever. Now, or spend millions and postpone it a decade.

[180grainer]

And a high percentage of wolves are being removed. Antlerless harvest is a piece of managing wildlife populations across every jurisdiction in North America. People have been stirred into a frenzy over the term "moose cull" which is not even remotely close to what this is. It's an increase of a handful of tags in one area that is seeing heavy wolf reduction as well.

Using terms like "mommies and their babies" is what anti's do.
Are you suggesting the Province is actively culling a significant percentage of the wolves in that area? Please provide that information if you can.

[Ride Red]

The thing is science is two parts. The theory and the experiment. Lots of people have gone to great lengths to espouse the theory behind this, including Jesse. The problem is that this exact same theory has been put into practice in other areas and the outcome was dismal. The theory did not work.

"The*definition of Stupidity*is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results"

Killing moose results in wolves targeting more caribou, this has been proven. Killing wolves results more ungulates which buys time but will still result in the exterpation of the caribou, it will just take longer. The only hope for the caribou is habitat. Caribou habitat is not moose habitat. Caribou cannot adapt to living in proximity to humans, this has been proven by science. To save the caribou you have to stop mining, logging, houses, roads, and monoculture planting. Inshort, you would have to sacrifice countless jobs, unfathomable money, and more. If we aren't willing to do that then have to decide when is a good time to met them disappear forever. Now, or spend millions and postpone it a decade.

The tabled fix has been tried and failed in the past. Cull the wolves and let the results unfold. Too many blind people in this world.

[gcreek]

This is not a "moose cull". Far from it.

Jesse has been open about sharing facts, not hearsay. It's disappointing to see all of the misinformation and outright lies from the usual suspects talking in circles and getting the uninformed stirred up. There is a small increase in tags in one area. An area that has seen the moose population increase 55% in 2 years and has heavy wolf reduction going on.

Hunters cried for science-based management when the grizzly hunt was shut down. Can't cherry pick when science doesn't align with your socially-motivated stance.

BCWF has been known to accept funds from known environmental groups in order to “enhance” wildlife.

Could it be that their support for this issue is due to a promise of more funding or a cutting of existing “cooperation” from same groups?

Makes one wonder................

As has been stated several times, this is a political ploy to keep from having to do the obviously needed lessening of predator populations.

[180grainer]

BCWF has been known to accept funds from known environmental groups in order to “enhance” wildlife.

Can we find any disclosure of that on the BCWF site? Would explain a lot if you're correct.

[Bugle M In]

This is not a "moose cull". Far from it.

Jesse has been open about sharing facts, not hearsay. It's disappointing to see all of the misinformation and outright lies from the usual suspects talking in circles and getting the uninformed stirred up. There is a small increase in tags in one area. An area that has seen the moose population increase 55% in 2 years and has heavy wolf reduction going on.

Hunters cried for science-based management when the grizzly hunt was shut down. Can't cherry pick when science doesn't align with your socially-motivated stance.

Which Regions and which MU's have seen that increase?
(Not here to argue that point with you but would like to know which ones)

Now, if my mind and eyes haven't left me, I saw something somewhere in R3, where they were going to increase cow/calf tags.
And I hunt that area in a couple of those MU's.
And I am utterly baffled as to "Why they increased" the harvest of them.
I am all for hunter opportunity and success over trophy size.
But, in those MU's, there aint that many Moose, and they get hunted/poached and FN'd like crazy.

BUT, the biggest impact has been "the wolves"!!!!!
Not only for Moose, but the MD as well.
Why cull more Moose??? in there.

This is an area that hasn't seen wolves in forever, to the best of my knowledge, like a great many areas where wolves are moving into.

AND, I don't see any wolf cull happening!???? in there.
SO, before I agree to Moose being taken, especially where I think it could hold a lot more Moose anyways, and gets a lot of pressure both locally and by LM hunters, we should be
targeting the Wolves!
And not just by hunters, by the Ministry!

Then, and only then would I support an increase in those areas of Moose tags.

Now, some areas you are possibly discussing with a 55% increase, maybe that is different?
Again, would like to know where that is.
And if Moose are increasing like that, then those areas probably have had the wolves removed, which is exactly what every0one is saying to do....FIRST!

[2chodi]

How about the 2000 plus antlerless elk authorizations that followed a lengthy GOS on antlerless elk in the Peace agriculture zone? Mule deer antlerless for a while too in the same area. The mandate was to reduce the mule deer and elk population by half in response to lobbying from ranchers. This site has been full of posts asking for information about those hunts. Bison hunts - any animal. These hunts have overlapped successive governments. The only science was the fact that reducing the number of cows and does would decrease the elk and mule deer numbers where the antlered season wouldn’t. The 50% reduction mandate was never achieved, but elk antlerless authorizations have been cut in half and the mule deer antlerless season is gone.

[gcreek]

Can we find any disclosure of that on the BCWF site? Would explain a lot if you're correct.

I believe it was Raincoast for $50,000.00 but can’t recall the project. Seems two or three years back.

I have been corrected......

It was Moore Foundation and Tides Canada for $500,000.00

Thes are the same groups that funded Coastal First Nations to help end the grizzly hunt.

The money was for BCWF wetlands projects, my source says some of the funds made it to destinations intended.

[Gateholio]

B.C.'s director of wildlife and habitat, Jennifer Psyllakis, said the proposed numbers for moose cow and calf tags are not significant over last year — in 2019, 357 authorizations were issued, and this year, the province is looking to increase that to 400. Of the 357 tags issued in 2019, 79 antlerless moose were killed.


Sorry, I didn't read the whole thread so maybe this has already been answered. The OP has this statement above from Psyllakis.

Doing the math it appears as if 9 more moose may be killed than last year.

Is this a real issue?

[gcreek]

Sorry, I didn't read the whole thread so maybe this has already been answered. The OP has this statement above from Psyllakis.

Doing the math it appears as if 9 more moose may be killed than last year.

Is this a real issue?


Yes. Next year they may add 100 more.

It should tell you how low the numbers are by the poor success percentages.

[Gateholio]

Yes. Next year they may add 100 more.

It should tell you how low the numbers are by the poor success percentages.


22% Harvest rate.

20-25% harvest rate is pretty consistent with past moose harvest rates IIRC.

[gcreek]

22% Harvest rate.

20-25% harvest rate is pretty consistent with past moose harvest rates IIRC.

For how many years?

I recall taking ones pick.

And having a GOS for caribou bulls and an LEH for 20 cows. And a GOS on Grizzlies. Only thing different was fewer predators.

[Gateholio]

For how many years?

I recall taking ones pick.

And having a GOS for caribou bulls and an LEH for 20 cows. And a GOS on Grizzlies. Only thing different was fewer predators.


And you could get a beer for a nickel at one point too.

Question still remains- if this is over 9 more dead moose, is it really an issue?

[gcreek]

And you could get a beer for a nickel at one point too.

Question still remains- if this is over 9 more dead moose, is it really an issue?

The answer is still yes, the issue is not 9 more dead cow moose, the issue is the thousands of wolves and grizzlies basically unchecked in this province that need reining in.

[Gateholio]

The answer is still yes, the issue is not 9 more dead cow moose, the issue is the thousands of wolves and grizzlies basically unchecked in this province that need reining in.

You are making a statement about predators, not answering the question.

Maybe someone else will chime in.

[Ride Red]

And you could get a beer for a nickel at one point too.

Question still remains- if this is over 9 more dead moose, is it really an issue?

The issue is saying they need to add some more tags to thin the moose population so the area wolves have less to prey on when the issue at hand is too many wolves in the area to start with. Thinning a few more moose out will only cause wolves to chase the next closest meal down possibly being caribou. Why not thin the problem out allowing the caribou a chance to roam without being a meal. They’re trying to reason that this is science based but this process has failed in the past, so why not do what has continued to work; a cull of wolves. Not saying wolves are the only predators, but their range/pack sizes have grown exponentially over the years without being put in check. If a cull doesn’t continue to happen here and throughout the rest of the province, ungulate populations will continually decline until we then see a starving wolf/predator problem, then as game managers, we have failed.

[Moose63]

The issue is saying they need to add some more tags to thin the moose population so the area wolves have less to prey on when the issue at hand is too many wolves in the area to start with. Thinning a few more moose out will only cause wolves to chase the next closest meal down possibly being caribou. Why not thin the problem out allowing the caribou a chance to roam without being a meal. They’re trying to reason that this is science based but this process has failed in the past, so why not do what has continued to work; a cull of wolves. Not saying wolves are the only predators, but their range/pack sizes have grown exponentially over the years without being put in check. If a cull doesn’t continue to happen here and throughout the rest of the province, ungulate populations will continually decline until we then see a starving wolf/predator problem, then as game managers, we have failed.

Seems obvious doesn't it??

[gcreek]

Seems obvious doesn't it??

To those of us without agendas...........

[HarryToolips]

^^^^^I'm sure 99.9% of us on this site agree with you...I believe the issue is a lack of political willpower from our politicians to do the right thing, especially because they are considering the opinions of the uneducated masses of those that are not in the know - those who think wolves are cute and cuddly and don't want to see wolf cull

[180grainer]

And you could get a beer for a nickel at one point too.

Question still remains- if this is over 9 more dead moose, is it really an issue?
If you're correct, it wouldn't appear a huge issue on the surface. But what people need to take away from this, are that the moose being harvested are being so as a means to "reduce" the wolf population. If that's true, then no, the moose should not be harvested and left to procreate. The practice of killing moose to kill wolves shows everyone how politicized managing our wildlife has become. What they are doing is implementing a stupid idea in order to subvert the possible political fall out from someone like Raincoast making a big deal out of a wolf cull.

[Gateholio]

To those of us without agendas...........

Whom do you speak of that has an "agenda?"

What specifically is this agenda?

[wideopenthrottle]

the people in government that are supposed to be managing wildlife but instead are trying to manage public perceptions instead

[REMINGTON JIM]

the people in government that are supposed to be managing wildlife but instead are trying to manage public perceptions instead


THat SUMs it UP ! :mad: RJ

[gcreek]

the people in government that are supposed to be managing wildlife but instead are trying to manage public perceptions instead

Let's add a few organizations that profit from those who are gullible enough to believe their bs.

[Dannybuoy]

Let's add a few organizations that profit from those who are gullible enough to believe their bs.
Absolutely , the grant monies and salaries to study , consult , study etc is astounding and that's on top of the government bio's salaries

[2chodi]

You do know that the way LEH and number of authorizations are supposed to work is by adjusting the number of authorizations in subsequent years to match the harvest objectives. So, if too many of animal "X" are taken through LEH, then the number of authorizations should go down and visa versa, if too few animals are harvested the number of authorizations are supposed to increase. If LEH system is run accordingly as it should be, then "burning" your authorization instead of filling it could contribute to an increase in authorizations the following year if the harvest objective stays the same.

Anti-hunting groups have been accused of having their members get a FWID and applying for authorizations to save animals and so have guide outfitters been accused by having family members apply for say a sheep authorization and then not go. Not only is this flawed logic in terms of the way LEH and #'s of authorizations work, but the data shows that if these attempts are happening, it's not significant.


There is an informal program underway in Alberta termed the Save A Doe campaign.
In essence, the government issues far more doe tags (mulies in this case) than could ever be considered sustainable. All part and parcel of their intentional destruction of the southern mulie herds in the name of CWD.
Locals apply for the the tags when on LEH. Or buy them when they are cross-counter tags.
Then burn them.

I believe this is the route we should go in this case here.
I did apply, and I will burn them if I get "Lucky"...

Save a moose calf / cow campaign anyone?

Nog

[Dannybuoy]

You do know that the way LEH and number of authorizations are supposed to work is by adjusting the number of authorizations in subsequent years to match the harvest objectives. So, if too many of animal "X" are taken through LEH, then the number of authorizations should go down and visa versa, if too few animals are harvested the number of authorizations are supposed to increase. If LEH system is run accordingly as it should be, then "burning" your authorization instead of filling it could contribute to an increase in authorizations the following year if the harvest objective stays the same.

Anti-hunting groups have been accused of having their members get a FWID and applying for authorizations to save animals and so have guide outfitters been accused by having family members apply for say a sheep authorization and then not go. Not only is this flawed logic in terms of the way LEH and #'s of authorizations work, but the data shows that if these attempts are happening, it's not significant.
That's the same ideology that's part of the problem ..... gee only 22% success rate , we should sell more LEH tags ..... gee low bull/cow ratios....must lower cow # .... gee now low cow/bull ratio= more bull tags . Now gee maybe if we lower the moose # the wolves won't eat caribou . I don't believe our wildlife managers can be that naive or stupid ? Just following orders .... motive ? more pay , job security ?

[Bugle M In]

My only concerns, isn't the 9 more Moose etc harvested, even though removing cows means even less moose around the next season (kind of obvious)
My concern is, that there are new LEH allocations being put out there, not because we have "too many moose" in an area, BUT,
rather it is being used to try to keep "wolf populations down".

That is my concern.
I can see it working, but only if you are trying to save say Cariboo, in area, where you do BOTH, full wolf cull and then to avoid new wolves "moving in", remove some of the prey items,
like moose.
(that makes logical sense)

BUT, only if wolves are being removed!
In R3, where I see some new allocations, I don't feel the moose are in that great a shape, and yet here are some new allocations.
What is in great shape and growing are the wolf #'s.

So, I am concerned that to try to bend the curve on wolf #'s, that they are using this "new approach" to somehow try and reduce wolves.
When, the easiest, most effective way is to go out and shoot them by heli, targeting only the wolves, and taking the whole pack out.
And if it has to do with the Cariboo, take out a whole ton more, for hundred of square miles surrounding the area to protect the Boo.
We "know that works"!!!

This to me, is all about being too much of a pussy by the ministry and government caving into antis and not having a proper wolf cull.
So, hey, lets kill of moose, and all looks good as hunters do the killing, but then eventually the wolves take hold, and drop the moose #'s drastically.
AND, in the end, the hunt gets shut down, an "hunters get the blame" for killing all the moose.

WIN-WIN for the NDP, the antis are happy about no wolf cull, the anti's get to say "hey, look at the hunting community and their blood thirty, shoot up the valley, hunting mentality",
the season gets shut down, and the FN get to hunt unencumbered!

GREAT plan, if you are ndp, anti or FN.
IMO.

[AllDay]

From what I understand, their plan is to continue a rather aggressive wolf cull in the specified areas where they are also asking hunters to harvest moose. Scientific studies have shown that by reducing moose population it will reduce the wolf density in the target areas. They have done both wolf culling along and wolf culling with moose reduction. The moose reduction in conjunction with the wolf culling is the only management system that has resulted in an increase in caribou survival. If you don’t reduce the density of moose the wolves just return. If you remove their main food source they don’t come back in the same numbers. This is not based on my thoughts or experience. This is based on high quality science

[boxhitch]

Good post Allday, some will see the logic

Buglemin, do you know what has being going on in the way of wolf reductions in those caribou areas? Any idea of the effort and success and numbers that have been taken out over the last several years?

[Ride Red]

From what I understand, their plan is to continue a rather aggressive wolf cull in the specified areas where they are also asking hunters to harvest moose. Scientific studies have shown that by reducing moose population it will reduce the wolf density in the target areas. They have done both wolf culling along and wolf culling with moose reduction. The moose reduction in conjunction with the wolf culling is the only management system that has resulted in an increase in caribou survival. If you don’t reduce the density of moose the wolves just return. If you remove their main food source they don’t come back in the same numbers. This is not based on my thoughts or experience. This is based on high quality science

With a prolific wolf population like BC has, it will only be a short matter of time before they reproduce to the surrounding food sources or transplant from different areas as they have been doing. Nocking off a few more cow/calf moose is strictly political ploy and squat to do with science. Government hired staff are in fear of job loss if they speak against the powers in charge. Again, this has been tried before and failed; how many times do we bang our heads against the wall to realize it feels good when we stop. Not sure what anti club you belong to, but I’m calling bullshit that you’re a hunter.

[REMINGTON JIM]

Absolutely , the grant monies and salaries to study , consult , study etc is astounding and that's on top of the government bio's salaries

Now theres something to THINKABOUT ! :roll: RJ

[wideopenthrottle]

This is not a "moose cull". Far from it.

Jesse has been open about sharing facts, not hearsay. It's disappointing to see all of the misinformation and outright lies from the usual suspects talking in circles and getting the uninformed stirred up. There is a small increase in tags in one area. An area that has seen the moose population increase 55% in 2 years and has heavy wolf reduction going on.

Hunters cried for science-based management when the grizzly hunt was shut down. Can't cherry pick when science doesn't align with your socially-motivated stance.
do you know if the population of moose is anywhere near carrying capacity....a 55% increase if we were only at 10% of carrying capacity is nothing more than a good start at recovery not justification for a population reduction/increased harvest....

[gcreek]

With a prolific wolf population like BC has, it will only be a short matter of time before they reproduce to the surrounding food sources or transplant from different areas as they have been doing. Nocking off a few more cow/calf moose is strictly political ploy and squat to do with science. Government hired staff are in fear of job loss if they speak against the powers in charge. Again, this has been tried before and failed; how many times do we bang our heads against the wall to realize it feels good when we stop. Not sure what anti club you belong to, but I’m calling bullshit that you’re a hunter.

I concur with you.

[gcreek]

do you know if the population of moose is anywhere near carrying capacity....a 55% increase if we were only at 10% of carrying capacity is nothing more than a good start at recovery not justification for a population reduction/increased harvest....

Yes, much better to use percentages than actual numbers. Moose count here in early 2019, two helicopters and a fixed wing. Counted 107 moose on west side of Itcha mountains from Anahim Lake to Tatla Lake general area. Moose allocations for LEH last fall in same area was about 160 bulls. Some Ting Wong.

[180grainer]

From what I understand, their plan is to continue a rather aggressive wolf cull in the specified areas where they are also asking hunters to harvest moose.
So, you're the second person to suggest an "aggressive wolf cull" is taking place. Government doesn't do anything like that without written policy and procedures, assigned budget and people. If you can't demonstrate this in any form, I wished you'd stick to what you do know. My position is, unless otherwise demonstrated, there is no Government direction advocating an "aggressive" wolf cull anywhere in BC. Prove me wrong.

[wideopenthrottle]

Yes, much better to use percentages than actual numbers. Moose count here in early 2019, two helicopters and a fixed wing. Counted 107 moose on west side of Itcha mountains from Anahim Lake to Tatla Lake general area. Moose allocations for LEH last fall in same area was about 160 bulls. Some Ting Wong.

if those were the official numbers the area could have gone from 70 moose to 108 in 2 years =55% increase but if the area has a carrying capacity of 2000 moose, there would still be a long road to recovery

[2chodi]

https://www2.gov.bc.ca/assets/gov/environment/plants-animals-and-ecosystems/wildlife-wildlife-habitat/caribou/south_peace_caribou_recovery_following_five_years_ of_experimental_wolf_reduction.pdf




So, you're the second person to suggest an "aggressive wolf cull" is taking place. Government doesn't do anything like that without written policy and procedures, assigned budget and people. If you can't demonstrate this in any form, I wished you'd stick to what you do know. My position is, unless otherwise demonstrated, there is no Government direction advocating an "aggressive" wolf cull anywhere in BC. Prove me wrong.

[gcreek]

if those were the official numbers the area could have gone from 70 moose to 108 in 2 years =55% increase but if the area has a carrying capacity of 2000 moose, there would still be a long road to recovery

IIRC, the numbers two years previous were nearly double. Also an interesting observation by those counting were most moose were in close proximity to ranches and hay yards. Safety maybe also?

I was speaking tongue in cheek concerning percentages.

[Ride Red]

https://www2.gov.bc.ca/assets/gov/environment/plants-animals-and-ecosystems/wildlife-wildlife-habitat/caribou/south_peace_caribou_recovery_following_five_years_ of_experimental_wolf_reduction.pdf

Great info 2chodi, thanks. Everyone should read this.

[180grainer]

https://www2.gov.bc.ca/assets/gov/environment/plants-animals-and-ecosystems/wildlife-wildlife-habitat/caribou/south_peace_caribou_recovery_following_five_years_ of_experimental_wolf_reduction.pdf
Thanks, after a short read, I guess they have. 2 wolves per 1000 square k? Too bad they don't do that as a general game management strategy. I still say you haven't kill enough wolves if you're thinking of killing moose to either kill wolves or have them move on.

[gcreek]

Thanks, after a short read, I guess they have. 2 wolves per 1000 square k? Too bad they don't do that as a general game management strategy. I still say you haven't kill enough wolves if you're thinking of killing moose to either kill wolves or have them move on.

My thoughts as well. Taking them out of a small area is like pulling your finger out of a glass of water considering the population of wolves province wide.

1000 sq. km. is not that big of an area when you really think of it 20 x 50 km......
How many prey animals are supposed to inhabit the same area considering a mature wolf will eat the equivalent of 10 full grown moose in a year?

[bownut]

Wonder how much of this concludes with further study needed?
Go deep into the story and find the truth.........

http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/wld/speciesconservation/mc/files/Recommendations_Predator-Prey_Management_Final.pdf (http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/wld/speciesconservation/mc/files/Recommendations_Predator-Prey_Management_Final.pdf)

[bownut]

Chew on this also.
cbc.ca/news/canada/north/yukon-moose-harvest-pressure-map-1.4016653

[Bugle M In]

Good post Allday, some will see the logic

Buglemin, do you know what has being going on in the way of wolf reductions in those caribou areas? Any idea of the effort and success and numbers that have been taken out over the last several years?

Firstly, I was talking a little lower on the BC grid (granted this thread was on saving cariboo and removing moose vs wolves).
And no, until I just read 2chodi's pdf, what was going on up there in Chetwynd country.
BUT, that pdf shows that removing most of the wolves "does work and does benefit the Boo"!
ALSO, scary how quickly the can "reproduce"! (wolves)
AND, yes, removing moose may stop wolves from going back into the Boo country, BUT, "they will go somewhere"!!!!!

So, isn't it just simpler to keep an "aggressive cull on WOLVES" rather then limit moose #'s and hunter opportunities? (in the long run).

And, where I was talking, where they did add leh permits for Moose, they have done dick all on removing the dogs.
And if they are, they sure could fool me from all the tracks I saw and the howling I heard...yet again....7 years straight now.
And no, I aint seeing much moose sign, and if anything way less the last few years then ever before.

So, can you tell me why they added tags for Moose????
I sure hope they are counting more Moose and I am "completely wrong".
I just worry that they are trying to slip in this "remove the prey source to make the preds go away" BS!!!
Just drop the dogs to a # that works, and maintain it.

The one thing that is forgotten in all this is there are other factors that contribute to all these problems,'
It isn't just wolves, or by no means, we have too many Moose.
We have logged the hell out of this province in some places.
And from what I see, experience and look at it.
These huge cutblocks, as far as the eye can see and beyond and over the entire plateau = "advantage wolf"!!!

It's never going to be 1 issue that causes all these problems.
Wolves are only one of the factors.
But to remove Moose, when an area is under capacity anyways for Moose....well....that just leaves me scratching my head.

Different then when trying to protect MD range from invasive WT.
Totally different, and there, we try to eliminate the WT.

This is just a big go around and round discussion.
Big issue is the lack of Ministry support and funding availability.
And it hasn't mattered which political party has/is been in power, they have done nothing.
Dont expect things to change either.

All this is, is someone trying to "re-invent the wheel" (the wheel of wildlife management)
Why just not try to "manage it" for once and all.

[bearvalley]

Round and round we go!
Here’s some food for thought.....Primary Prey Reductions are the perfect theory in the perfect world of caribou, moose and wolves.
Throw in any wildcard of alternate prey such as elk, deer, sheep, goats or livestock and the plan goes sideways.
Then there’s the protected iconic grizzly bear along with his cousin the black bear (who might be needing a new name soon on account of what’s going on with the BLM horseshit).....these bears are liking caribou meat as well...not just blueberries and dandelions.
And don’t forget in some areas caribou soon become cougar turds....like the Tsenaglode ones did.
For the most part, localized PP reductions along with pocket wolf removal is like pissing in the wind.
You’re gonna get a warm feel good feeling but it’s going to come back at you....just like Mike Bridgers report showed.
And by the way....at present he’s the bio in this province making a difference.
It sure would be great to see what the results would be if his entire 5 year budget was allocated in one year and the range of the wolf reduction greatly expanded.
My bet is there’d be some real results.....then throw in a bear hunt that went down the tube.
Bingo....there’d be caribou & moose......without killing cows & calves.

[REMINGTON JIM]

post # 121 and 122 are Exactly CORRECT ! GREAT Post's Guy's ! ;) jmo RJ

[Bugle M In]

When its comes to Cariboo, lets face it, they aint the brightest prey species.
Not that I want to see them gone.

We all talk about why we hunt, all the benefits, and that we are able, when done properly, "manage" the wildlife as a renewable resource.
We talk about the ability to carry particular species in a particular area at a healthy capacity (not full, but healthy) and by doing it, it ensures a bountiful opportunity for everyone.
If game is too low, we reduce the #'s harvested, and so they do not become sickly and "over abundant", we harvest then at a sustainable level.

That's just great, but to do that, we have to manage "all the wildlife".
And for a great many years, due to political reasons, we have not managed preds.
(a lot of things we have not managed well, either not finding money or things out of our control like the beetle kill etc).
But certain things we could have been doing, used to be doing and then had it stopped.

We try to manage the prey, we try to manage us, but we aren't managing the preds, and we cant manage outside factors from other sectors etc.
It shows.
It's a total shit show.
Look at the sports fishing around the LM for salmon this coming summer.
It's a mess.

Honestly, I am on the end stage of this hunting for me, slowly.
Maybe I should stop saying what I think.
Maybe it is time for the younger generation, who have many good years of hunting left inside them to decide how they want it managed.
If they want to cull the Moose, to save the Boo, then go ahead.
Then they can decide years from now "if" it was the right move.
(personally, I am curious to know how much, or should I say, how little opportunity, imo, they will have....in time???)

I suppose as long as people care, regardless of method, maybe there will always be hope??

[REMINGTON JIM]

with a prolific wolf population like bc has, it will only be a short matter of time before they reproduce to the surrounding food sources or transplant from different areas as they have been doing. Nocking off a few more cow/calf moose is strictly political ploy and squat to do with science. Government hired staff are in fear of job loss if they speak against the powers in charge. Again, this has been tried before and failed; how many times do we bang our heads against the wall to realize it feels good when we stop. Not sure what anti club you belong to, but i’m calling bullshit that you’re a hunter.

i totally agree ! Rj

[wideopenthrottle]

IIRC, the numbers two years previous were nearly double. Also an interesting observation by those counting were most moose were in close proximity to ranches and hay yards. Safety maybe also?

I was speaking tongue in cheek concerning percentages.

yes same here just using your numbers as an example of how the numbers they are using can be misleading

[gcreek]

yes same here just using your numbers as an example of how the numbers they are using can be misleading

Not that Government would ever mislead people..........

[bearvalley]

yes same here just using your numbers as an example of how the numbers they are using can be misleading
In some jurisdictions of this province caribou numbers are just a guess.
At present there are caribou that are being managed based on inventory work that hasn’t been upgraded in over 20 years.....
Tough to make calls on what stays and what goes when it’s not known what you’re working with.

[Retiredguy]

Many of you on this forum were not even alive when it happened, but BC lost its ability to effectively manage wildlife back in the early 80's. That was when the province came under a controlled and systematic attack by international anti-hunting/wolf loving groups spear headed by Paul Watson of Greenpeace (at the time) and their movement Project Wolf. Dr. Elliott was a provincial biologist that was doing wolf control in NE BC, which was using poison originally, until he initiated the shooting from helicopters method.

The international press went after the wolf cull like a dog with a bone and the general public lapped it up. This was also the period when trapping was also under attack globally and the anti-grizzly hunting movement, as well as the anti-trophy hunting push really started in earnest. Nothing has been the same since. The provincial government lost its backbone back then. It took a long time and pushes by the anti groups every few years, but their tactics have proven very effective. Along the way they have managed to create a situation where global hysteria erupts at the hunting of all charismatic mega fauna...you know, wolves, big cats, pachyderms and bears. Wolf control and grizzly hunting has become a topic for the provincial government that seems to have the same effect as the topic of abortion to the federal government.

All these years later we now see that grizzly hunting is no longer a legal activity in Canada except in the Yukon and to a very limited extent in the NWT and Nunavut. Any wolf control is done under a cloak of secrecy, because if word gets out to the wrong people the backlash can be swift, and is potentially both a political and career killer. Then when you factor in the Supreme Court of Canada decisions regarding First Nations and Metis "harvest" rights...well the province no longer really practices game management. They practice hunter control, but there again it really only amounts to control of "licensed" hunters.

With the caribou, well it has become a global issue as caribou herds are experiencing huge declines in many places and the woodland caribou are just one of the various areas of focus with caribou management. In Canada there are not just the mountain caribou herds in BC in trouble, there are the woodland caribou across the country in the northern boreal forests (and we won't get into the problems with the central Canadian barren ground caribou herds, the Arctic Islands herds or the Quebec/Labrador herds...all of which are tanking).
Fortunately for the woodland caribou in big chunks of northern Alberta, Saskatchewan, Manitoba, Ontario and Quebec, there are lots of forested areas where muskeg limits access and the timber itself is of such poor quality and size that it is not worth harvesting. Those areas have next to no roads and limited access...unlike BC.

Truthfully, there are a number of the so called mountain/woodland caribou herds in BC that are just not likely to survive. You can shoot the shit out of the wolves all you want but you cannot magically get rid of the hundreds of thousands of km's of resource extraction roads, cut lines and pipeline right-of-ways. We are/were blessed as a province with vast forests, outstanding mineral reserves for both hard rock and placer mining and oil and gas. But all of that resource extraction comes at a heavy price for some wildlife due to the access it creates and changes to the environment that result. Caribou do not do well around humans and our activity. You also can't magically replace the vast areas of old growth forest that have been levelled and were the key wintering areas for these caribou. To compound the problem many of those old growth forests were high elevation forests where the trees take a hundred to two hundred years to grow and much of the current silviculture practices do not work well in those areas.

There is no easy fix to the caribou problem. One thing I do know is that lowering the moose population to control wolves and save the caribou is not going to work. It is being picked as a possible bandaid solution because it is cheap...let the hunters do it. Culling wolves by helicopter is expensive, the last figures I have seen seem to indicate a cost of about $4,300 per wolf but can clime to as high as $10,000 per wolf in some instances. Trapping them is problematic because there just aren't that many trappers out there any more that are really good at it and the same forces that want to protect the wolves killed off a viable trapping industry. Fur prices suck and no one is going to spend more money to trap a wolf than they can get back for selling the hide, even if you are just doing it for recreational purposes. Going in the hole monetarily gets old pretty quick. So a "bounty" is needed if you really want to get trappers out there and reducing the wolf population, but there is no way the government is going to talk about a "bounty" and suffer the onslaught of the global anti movement. No better to just let the "licensed" hunters take it on the chin reducing the moose population so it looks like they are doing something.

[bearvalley]

Retiredguy, great post and you nailed it.
Some of us were around during the Greenpeace shenanigans and got in on part of that rodeo first hand.
Getting back to caribou problems... there have been recent studies done in BC (currently unpublished) that have been undertaken to try and get to the root of what’s causing caribou declines. These studies were done in areas that are/were seeing industrial resource use and landscapes that were roadless with no resource extraction whatsoever.
Samples were taken to determine if there were health issues....2 things came up.
The caribou carried a mycobacterium that could cause abortions but most likely had built an immunity and this was not a major factor.
The second flag was elevated “stress” levels in caribou populations from all herds sampled.
When this showed up in caribou that were not in a resource extraction/human pressured area it pointed in one direction.
Predator pressure.
This was solidified through inventory work.....for example on caribou population showed 17:100 for a calf count but a year later the yearling count was 2:100.
This is a crashing population.
Were present wildlife managers are failing is that they’re bandaid patching and don’t deal with the big picture.
In the case of many caribou herds that need recovery work...killing wolves and moose won’t get the job done if bears and other factors are ignored.
I guess it’s just easier to kill “momma moose & baby moose” than it is to take the heat and get the job done right.

[Bugle M In]

Retiredguy, great post and you nailed it.
Some of us were around during the Greenpeace shenanigans and got in on part of that rodeo first hand.
Getting back to caribou problems... there have been recent studies done in BC (currently unpublished) that have been undertaken to try and get to the root of what’s causing caribou declines. These studies were done in areas that are/were seeing industrial resource use and landscapes that were roadless with no resource extraction whatsoever.
Samples were taken to determine if there were health issues....2 things came up.
The caribou carried a mycobacterium that could cause abortions but most likely had built an immunity and this was not a major factor.
The second flag was elevated “stress” levels in caribou populations from all herds sampled.
When this showed up in caribou that were not in a resource extraction/human pressured area it pointed in one direction.
Predator pressure.
This was solidified through inventory work.....for example on caribou population showed 17:100 for a calf count but a year later the yearling count was 2:100.
This is a crashing population.
Were present wildlife managers are failing is that they’re bandaid patching and don’t deal with the big picture.
In the case of many caribou herds that need recovery work...killing wolves and moose won’t get the job done if bears and other factors are ignored.
I guess it’s just easier to kill “momma moose & baby moose” than it is to take the heat and get the job done right.


Many of you on this forum were not even alive when it happened, but BC lost its ability to effectively manage wildlife back in the early 80's. That was when the province came under a controlled and systematic attack by international anti-hunting/wolf loving groups spear headed by Paul Watson of Greenpeace (at the time) and their movement Project Wolf. Dr. Elliott was a provincial biologist that was doing wolf control in NE BC, which was using poison originally, until he initiated the shooting from helicopters method.

The international press went after the wolf cull like a dog with a bone and the general public lapped it up. This was also the period when trapping was also under attack globally and the anti-grizzly hunting movement, as well as the anti-trophy hunting push really started in earnest. Nothing has been the same since. The provincial government lost its backbone back then. It took a long time and pushes by the anti groups every few years, but their tactics have proven very effective. Along the way they have managed to create a situation where global hysteria erupts at the hunting of all charismatic mega fauna...you know, wolves, big cats, pachyderms and bears. Wolf control and grizzly hunting has become a topic for the provincial government that seems to have the same effect as the topic of abortion to the federal government.

All these years later we now see that grizzly hunting is no longer a legal activity in Canada except in the Yukon and to a very limited extent in the NWT and Nunavut. Any wolf control is done under a cloak of secrecy, because if word gets out to the wrong people the backlash can be swift, and is potentially both a political and career killer. Then when you factor in the Supreme Court of Canada decisions regarding First Nations and Metis "harvest" rights...well the province no longer really practices game management. They practice hunter control, but there again it really only amounts to control of "licensed" hunters.

With the caribou, well it has become a global issue as caribou herds are experiencing huge declines in many places and the woodland caribou are just one of the various areas of focus with caribou management. In Canada there are not just the mountain caribou herds in BC in trouble, there are the woodland caribou across the country in the northern boreal forests (and we won't get into the problems with the central Canadian barren ground caribou herds, the Arctic Islands herds or the Quebec/Labrador herds...all of which are tanking).
Fortunately for the woodland caribou in big chunks of northern Alberta, Saskatchewan, Manitoba, Ontario and Quebec, there are lots of forested areas where muskeg limits access and the timber itself is of such poor quality and size that it is not worth harvesting. Those areas have next to no roads and limited access...unlike BC.

Truthfully, there are a number of the so called mountain/woodland caribou herds in BC that are just not likely to survive. You can shoot the shit out of the wolves all you want but you cannot magically get rid of the hundreds of thousands of km's of resource extraction roads, cut lines and pipeline right-of-ways. We are/were blessed as a province with vast forests, outstanding mineral reserves for both hard rock and placer mining and oil and gas. But all of that resource extraction comes at a heavy price for some wildlife due to the access it creates and changes to the environment that result. Caribou do not do well around humans and our activity. You also can't magically replace the vast areas of old growth forest that have been levelled and were the key wintering areas for these caribou. To compound the problem many of those old growth forests were high elevation forests where the trees take a hundred to two hundred years to grow and much of the current silviculture practices do not work well in those areas.

There is no easy fix to the caribou problem. One thing I do know is that lowering the moose population to control wolves and save the caribou is not going to work. It is being picked as a possible bandaid solution because it is cheap...let the hunters do it. Culling wolves by helicopter is expensive, the last figures I have seen seem to indicate a cost of about $4,300 per wolf but can clime to as high as $10,000 per wolf in some instances. Trapping them is problematic because there just aren't that many trappers out there any more that are really good at it and the same forces that want to protect the wolves killed off a viable trapping industry. Fur prices suck and no one is going to spend more money to trap a wolf than they can get back for selling the hide, even if you are just doing it for recreational purposes. Going in the hole monetarily gets old pretty quick. So a "bounty" is needed if you really want to get trappers out there and reducing the wolf population, but there is no way the government is going to talk about a "bounty" and suffer the onslaught of the global anti movement. No better to just let the "licensed" hunters take it on the chin reducing the moose population so it looks like they are doing something.

These 2 posts and 2chodi's pdf pretty much "sum it up"!!
Good stuff guys.

And for me, nothing more needs to be said.
These guys have just said all there needs to be said, imo.

[Rotorwash]

It is ******ed... The biologists Ive talked to thought it was ******ed as well.

what Retiredguy and bearvalley are saying is the same thing that I have heard from retired game management guys. They say the only way to fix the issue is the old way.

Really we need proper funding to evaluate numbers (All license fees to go to management for a start) and to not be afraid of the backlash to really reduce predator numbers effectively like in the past

[Walking Buffalo]

Bad Wildlife Management - HBC 2013
Includes a discussion on BCWF silence during the initial 2010 moose cull.
Prophetic....

http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/showthread.php?100332-Bad-wildlife-management-on-the-part-of-our-gov/page2&highlight=moose+wolves+cull



There will be an announcement in the next couple weeks on moose. The wheels turn slowly. Unfortunately we'll study them to find out they are being eaten by wolves. The predator management issue will be the end result and if hunters talk to themselves instead of their MLAs we will end up with moose in areas going the same way the mountain caribou have.
Suggest you get involved if you are passionate. Need people who are willing to contribute.

[Walking Buffalo]

Anyone else remember when the NDP in opposition (2012) gave the government shit for declining moose populations and the negative effect this has on First Nations, Small business (outfitters) and resident hunters?

[Ride Red]

Anyone else remember when the NDP in opposition (2012) gave the government shit for declining moose populations and the negative effect this has on First Nations, Small business (outfitters) and resident hunters?

Sure do, but how soon they forget doing the right thing when it comes to a paycheck.

[IronNoggin]

Village of Burns Lake council opposed to the cow moose and calf harvest


One of the major arguments from the supporters of banning the cow moose hunt is that the moose population is just now starting to recover but they believe it is still a long ways away from fully recovering. Rensby adds to this saying that their basic argument would be, “if moose and wolves are so intertwined that killing moose would save caribou from wolves, why is it that moose numbers have been going down all across the province along with caribou, while wolves continue to climb?” Rensby, like other supporters of his cause, want the province to focus just on predator management instead of opting for alternative prey management.

https://www.burnslakelakesdistrictnews.com/news/village-of-burns-lake-council-opposed-to-the-cow-moose-and-calf-harvest/

[hunter1947]

BC wildlife management have to look at the way Alberta wildlife management is run as for there LEH ,, BC management will get some good input from the Alberta management
Targeting moose to save the caribou is not the way to manage any wildlife,,what a crock..

[Bugle M In]

Best Analogy I have is:

You have a rock in your shoe, and it's ripping up you toe.
Technically, yes, you could remove the toe, and eliminate the current pain.
That being said, with the toe gone, the rock now has room to move around, and probably cause problems for the next toe.
I suppose you could remove that toe as well, so on and so forth.

The rock being the wolf and you can guess who the toe is.

Isn't it just easier to remove the stone?????
And, you get to keep your toes.

[Walking Buffalo]

There was an old lady that swallowed a fly....


The whole concept of moose/wolf density dependence THEORY is that the system is simple.
Moose and wolves.
Once other actors are introduced, the potential for chaos increases.

What I like most of the backlash to the moose cull, is the public awareness and objection to endless ecosystem manipulation experimentation.
Every honest biologist knows that wolf reductions at their simplest denominator only require one lever to be pulled.
Cull wolves.
The best part of just culling wolves, we know that we can easily NOT cause an undesired extirpation of the species.
They will rebound back if we let them.

If only biologists and politicians would adhere to the KISS principal.
Even if it makes it hard for them to find a job/cause.

[wideopenthrottle]

Best Analogy I have is:

You have a rock in your shoe, and it's ripping up you toe.
Technically, yes, you could remove the toe, and eliminate the current pain.
That being said, with the toe gone, the rock now has room to move around, and probably cause problems for the next toe.
I suppose you could remove that toe as well, so on and so forth.

The rock being the wolf and you can guess who the toe is.

Isn't it just easier to remove the stone?????
And, you get to keep your toes.

ill try one....every area has a carrying capacity for game ...lets call it a deck of cards. The ecosystem needs to be in balance so each population in the food web has their share of cards... when some animals get overpopulated-gain cards, others lose cards. killing wolves returns the cards to the caribou to regain a balanced food web. the idea of killing moose in this scenario is like ripping up cards instead of redistributing them....we end up playing with half a deck!!!

[hunter1947]

Wolves have always have been the number one reason for predator decline ,,to stabilize and prey management has to go after the one main problem the wolf
I heard from this person Rob that the trapper took 28 wolves this past winter from the area I hunted many years,,don't know if this is true ???..

[Bugle M In]

Look at Yellowstone, as that is a "true" example.
Before wolves, lots of elk and bison.
Too many!!
And becuse they couldnt be hunted, to balance it out...meaning managed, the ladscape was turning to crap.

SO, they introduced the wolves.
Now the population is way down on elk.
And the reason it will work is because the landscape isnt used for hunting or resource extraction or ranching.
Then, the balance is fine, and all is good.

However, if like in BC, where all those other factors play in, the introduction of wolves just tips the scales "too far"

You want wolves (like i do), in BC, and have hunting and everything else, then you need to manage the wolves too!
All the time, every season, to keep the balance as best as possible.