Guide Outfitters in for a tough season

[albravo2]

I know a lot of resident hunters think they are the enemy but I see Guide Outfitters as an integral part of the hunting landscape here in BC and I'm concerned this is going to be an awful year for them.

Not only is the world economy taking a beating, there is a good chance the border with the USA will still be closed in August.

I wonder if we'll see an uptick in hunts designed for resident hunters or if they will just let their territory lay fallow for the year and try and make it up next year.

Interesting times.

[swampthing]

Yes those poor guys are going to take a beating!

[moosinaround]

hmmmmm, wonder if residents hunting in the mountains will notice better success on sheep and goats? Less people running around in the sheep and goat country? Good luck to all you sheep/goat hunters! moosin

[Gateholio]

Everyone in the tourism business is taking a shit kicking, including outfitters.

[dakoda62]

My grand daughter won't be going back East forbear camp, nor north to camp this year. Cooks for an outfitter.

[Ron.C]

Everyone in the tourism business is taking a shit kicking, including outfitters.

yep, Now may be a good time for outfitters of the GOABC to offer up some discounted resident hunts? I mean they have the allocations why not utilize them and make some money?

[264mag]

In reality its likely cheaper to take a year off. That’s what the Haida fishing lodges are doing.

[325]

Tough times for many, especially those relying on tourists. I think the GO industry is an important part of our hunting heritage, and I sure hope it can survive

[albravo2]

yep, Now may be a good time for outfitters of the GOABC to offer up some discounted resident hunts? I mean they have the allocations why not utilize them and make some money?

That is what I was thinking but I wonder if they can still make money or break even at the discount that resident hunters would need. I'd like to support but the resident hunters I know that have used GOs paid a lot of money.

[TARCHER]

yep, Now may be a good time for outfitters of the GOABC to offer up some discounted resident hunts? I mean they have the allocations why not utilize them and make some money?
Agreed 100%

[Rayne]

Or sell the tags to us resident hunters so we can go on hunts that we don’t win leh’s for

[338win mag]

Or sell the tags to us resident hunters so we can go on hunts that we don’t win leh’s for
They are your draws to begin with.

[plumbcrazy]

Let’s step back and look at the dollar value that they have come up with for their area or sold their respective territories. Remember now that many areas have been passed threw the generations and now seam to be worth many millions!!! Maybe this is just a wake up call, your territory ain’t worth shit if the government says so!
this year they will have to pull their big boy shorts up and suck it up! Maybe they won’t be flying around harassing residents chasing “their game”.

[Drillbit]

No way in Hell they'd give us a chance at their $ animals.

They'll wait a year and collect some Justin $.

[boxhitch]

We all may even reap a windfall if the hunting pressure is eased for a year, next year will be epic

[huntcoop]

We all may even reap a windfall if the hunting pressure is eased for a year, next year will be epic

Somehow we’ll get screwed, just wait for it.

[Retiredguy]

Seems to me that in years gone by residents could not use outfitters assigned quota and they were only for non-residents, be they non-resident Canadians or non-resident aliens. Perhaps things have changed? The thinking expressed in the past was that it would not be fair to residents as it would mean that "rich" residents could just go with an outfitter and not have to mess around with the limited entry hunting draws like the unwashed masses.

But again......maybe it is allowed now? Perhaps one of the outfitters that use this site could clarify it for us.

Regardless, this pandemic and the closures globally are severely impacting outfitters in many countries. There will be many of them that have trouble surviving this and as we come out of it their client base will have shrunk as well. The majority of outfitters clients these days are older, as in 60 plus, and they have lost a great deal of money on their retirement investments. That, combined with the potential of catching something and the increased annoyances with international travel, will cause even more of them to say to hell with it and stay at home to hunt in their own country.

[NMO]

That is what I was thinking but I wonder if they can still make money or break even at the discount that resident hunters would need. I'd like to support but the resident hunters I know that have used GOs paid a lot of money.

It is all relative. A good guide and wrangler for a 14 day sheep hunt will be over $6000, and thats before you get to food, transportation, or anything to cover the overhead of a large operation. Insurance, annual payments for the outfit if its in newer hands, general gear/supplies, fuel, horse expenses, or airplane annual inspection. Certainly there is a huge markup on a 50k USD stone sheep hunt, but not so much on a 20k CAD one.

The G/O industry in Canada isn't as big as some, but if we lose a whole season of guiding it is a big impact to many. From the Canadian Federation of Outfitter Associations: "The COVID-19 pandemic’s impact on the outfitting industry is estimated to cost the National economy$1.482B in gross economic activity, $833M to gross domestic product (GDP), and 21,716 jobs. Total lostfederal government revenues are estimated at $99.6M."

[Ltbullken]

It is all relative. A good guide and wrangler for a 14 day sheep hunt will be over $6000, and thats before you get to food, transportation, or anything to cover the overhead of a large operation. Insurance, annual payments for the outfit if its in newer hands, general gear/supplies, fuel, horse expenses, or airplane annual inspection. Certainly there is a huge markup on a 50k USD stone sheep hunt, but not so much on a 20k CAD one.

The G/O industry in Canada isn't as big as some, but if we lose a whole season of guiding it is a big impact to many. From the Canadian Federation of Outfitter Associations: "The COVID-19 pandemic’s impact on the outfitting industry is estimated to cost the National economy$1.482B in gross economic activity, $833M to gross domestic product (GDP), and 21,716 jobs. Total lostfederal government revenues are estimated at $99.6M."

$99.6 mil.... pffft! Justin farts that every press conference ...at least.

[Beachcomber]

That, combined with the potential of catching something and the increased annoyances with international travel, will cause even more of them to say to hell with it and stay at home to hunt in their own country.

I hear you on the international travel angle. But, if you are looking for an activity that is less likely to kill you due to proximity to infected people, I expect a remote hunting camp is one of your better bets. This is not in the Alaska cruise risk category. I read somewhere that the two most common illnesses on silver surfer cruises are VD and food poisoning. I expect you are pretty safe from the former in a sheep camp.

[ElectricDyck]

I feel for all forced by the government to stop working. Time to open up! The average age of death from covid is the same age as the average life expectancy..

[huntcoop]

With all the bad blood spewed against the GOABC from BC residents I’m sure it will be a cold day in hell before they give any resident a deal and I for one can’t blame them at all.

[Retiredguy]

On the hunt I agree and that is not what I was alluding to, they will be worrying more about their time in airports, planes and being in the big cities in both directions. I made the comment as I know a lot of Americans who hunt in Canada and Overseas, and they are concerned going forward. This is especially true because the vast majority of the hunters that can afford the hunts are in the "older" category and have various health issues that Covid seems to like to prey upon.

[Retiredguy]

You are absolutely correct, I know lots of outfitters who take Resident hunters as well. I was referring to when outfitters have allocations for a particular species in an area where residents are on a draw. If it is an area where there are OTC resident tags for a particular species and no LEH draw is required, then it should not be an issue. Same goes for a Resident who drew an LEH tag in the outfitters area, no problem.

But I could be way off base. It was my understanding that this was the case years ago. It is entirely possible that I am out to lunch completely or things have changed.

[Rob Chipman]

"Everyone in the tourism business is taking a shit kicking, including outfitters."

Makes you wonder - we know how many depend on tourist dollars, and we know we've flattened the curve. How much longer will the "Don't travel to small towns" trump "Hey, maybe come and buy something here because we're starting to starve".

We're starting to phase in schools in June, and here in the LML traffic is almost back to pre-pandemic levels.

[Gateholio]

"Everyone in the tourism business is taking a shit kicking, including outfitters."

Makes you wonder - we know how many depend on tourist dollars, and we know we've flattened the curve. How much longer will the "Don't travel to small towns" trump "Hey, maybe come and buy something here because we're starting to starve".

We're starting to phase in schools in June, and here in the LML traffic is almost back to pre-pandemic levels.


In Sea to Sky there is a pretty vocal percentage of the population that is freaking out about Vancouver tourists coming. They call people selfish yet I think it’s they who are being selfish. If you are high risk or scared, stay home.

Some communities (mine included) seem to be making it as inhospitable as possible for visitors by closing down parks and camp sites. It’s very short sighted. People won’t stay home forever, and we will want their tourist dollars. Take precautions and open up, get the economy rolling again.

[gcreek]

yep, Now may be a good time for outfitters of the GOABC to offer up some discounted resident hunts? I mean they have the allocations why not utilize them and make some money?


Would you go to work for a percentage of your pay cheque just to be a nice guy? This country needs support from its citizens, not the ideas that hinge on a welfare image.

[willyqbc]

I wonder how many outfitters use "loss of revenue" insurance and wont actually lose a dime. I know during the forest fires, there were resorts that were able to file claims. I kind of suspect that a lot of outfitters carry this type of insurance as well.

[Ron.C]

Would you go to work for a percentage of your pay cheque just to be a nice guy? This country needs support from its citizens, not the ideas that hinge on a welfare image.


I wasn't implying they give these hunts away for pennies on the dollar as if they were looking for some sort of welfare. I was implying that a discounted rate may help keep them in buisness and garner some resident support. Companies discount the cost of products and services all the time for a variety of reasons.

Why would I pay full price on a product from an industry that's had recent conflicts with resident hunters, because Im a nice guy? Add to this that its primary client base has been severely impacted for who knows how long? And I'm sure the greenies will do everything they can to make this hurt permanent on the GOs and FN would happily take the allocation in a heartbeat.

Maybe the way ahead should be if the GO cant show that they are booked and can turn a profit on their hunts (which is why they are allocated the tags) then maybe they should have to surrender their allocation back to the crown and thos tags can be lumped into the LEH system.

I'll be crystal clear on my last point. There are going to be businesses and industries that do not survive the current economic troubles and that's just the way it is. Govt assistance and insurance is finite. And many of the ones that do survive will take a long time to recover and may never get back to the profits they once enjoyed.

[btridge]

I wonder how many outfitters use "loss of revenue" insurance and wont actually lose a dime. I know during the forest fires, there were resorts that were able to file claims. I kind of suspect that a lot of outfitters carry this type of insurance as well.

Before making a loss of revenue claim, businesses need to consider the clause " insured is to take all reasonable efforts to mitigate losses".
from the insurance companies point of view, is it reasonable to just shut down or is it reasonable to offer hunts at a sale price to mitigate losses?
Outfitters are going to have alot to consider in making these decisions.

[labguy]

Would you go to work for a percentage of your pay cheque just to be a nice guy? This country needs support from its citizens, not the ideas that hinge on a welfare image.

In any business, as the business climate changes, that business needs to adapt to the new reality and adjust accordingly. Relying on the same customer support as a business is hurting, just to be nice, is a recipe for failure.

The consumer driven economy is NOT predicated on “being nice.” It’s predicated on consumers getting the most return for their dollar.

This is a simple reality and those businesses that don’t see this will ultimately fail.

[HighCountryBC]

Would you go to work for a percentage of your pay cheque just to be a nice guy? This country needs support from its citizens, not the ideas that hinge on a welfare image.

If it meant feeding my family or being out of work, you're damn right I would swallow my pride.

[Gateholio]

All tourism businesses are probably going to be making concessions to attract business. Hotels will drop room rates for example. Destination vacation spots that rely on international tourism (like Whistler or Tofino) will market themselves to more localized tourists if there is no international clientele.

Outfitters may also change their model from expensive international client based hunts to lower price point Canadian resident hunts. Or they may not. It probably depends on the individual outfitter and how much room they have to move on their price, how their allocations are factored into a multi year and if they can reduce costs by cutting out some services to make a lower priced hunt more affordable.

Like many industries, different solutions will make sense to different individual businesses.

[Beachcomber]

^The irony for Whistler (Vail) is their entire strategy has been predicated on discouraging LML skiers and day trippers from out side the immediate Sea-to-Sky corridor and growing their higher margin international clientele. This has meant pushing skiers towards their more expensive all resort pass and reducing options for BCers in terms of shorter term passes. I was initially pretty happy/impressed when I learned they had refunded 80% of our Edge Card value for this season to be put towards next year's pass as the resort closed before we could use it all. Then I found out that Vail had eliminated the 13-18 age category and now 13 year olds pay the same as adults. So that blows a hole in the 80% refund, reducing this to something like 40% when factoring in the pass hike. Think they have a long way to go to recapturing the goodwill they have squandered since the takeover. That said, with options for locals limited in terms of travel perhaps that will help bail them out. If we hit another bad fire season, however, that would be miserable for all.

[Gateholio]

Local (LML) traffic comprises a large degree of summer business in Whistler, although obviously there is plenty of international tourism too. Lots of Europeans in rental RV"s cruising Alberta and BC as well as regular tourists. With LML people essentially trapped in BC for the next month or two, hopefully they will make up for the lack of international clients to a certain degree. Summer people often don't care about what Vail does for ski passes but when winter rolls around Vail better have a better plan than what they have been doing the last few years. Whistler in general really needs to rethink things, even wealthy tourists are complaining it's been getting too expensive. Commercial property values tends to drive this. It's easy for a medium/large restaurant or pub in the village to be paying $30-40K per month in rent.

Sounds like things are going to be opening up in Whistler in a wee or two, I expect hotel rates to be very competitive.

[IslandWanderer]

If it meant feeding my family or being out of work, you're damn right I would swallow my pride.

Absolutely, a person would have to be pretty stubborn to earn zero dollars instead of offering a sale.

[Beachcomber]

I think they have already laid their chips on the table with regard to the coming winter season and have assumed it will be business as usual (ie screw the LML contingent). It likely will not be as, regardless of the circumstances, people will still be wary of travelling.

This rarely seen footage of one prominent European tourist demonstrates just how patience with Vail has been wearing thin for a while:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3QmiFfLkWw

[gcreek]

If it meant feeding my family or being out of work, you're damn right I would swallow my pride.

You are in a very small minority Sir, my hat is off to you.

[Retiredguy]

How things rebound for tourism is going to have a lot to do with when the borders open to international travel, and that is going to have a lot to do with what countries do or do not have rampant Covid-19 issues. As we all know, the whole world is not on the same timeline with the disease. Then there is the issue with flair-ups that occur....and you can bet there will be some...and the ever present threat of a second wave. All you have to do is look at the Excited States and what is happening down there. The next month will tell us a lot about where things are headed.

And let's not forget about the airlines. When things loosen up and international flights return, it won't look anything like it was prior to this mess. Many are predicting that much of the global population will be slow to get back on the international travel bandwagon, and there is much speculation of a big increase in the cost of tickets due to the reconfiguring of passenger seating, etc.

Personally I do not see things bouncing back too quickly, especially since much of this years tourist season will be a total write off. Much is in the air with outfitting this coming fall and there will have to be some very encouraging signs in the very near future that fall hunts will be possible before outfitters are going to drop a bunch of coin on opening their areas and camps to be ready for fall hunters. Realistically the fall season is already a write off for many reasons, even if things did open later in the summer. When one factors in changes to charter flights and how they can transport supplies and people, the 14 day quarantine periods if they remain, rounding up employees to replace those lost during the down time to other jobs, clients who have made other plans or become unemployed, etc., etc. The more remote an outfitting area is the more difficult it will be to pull it off...if it even becomes an option, and right now that is a big if.

[stan]

Who cares , hope they all go broke. But they won’t ,cause the rich Americans that own most high end outfits have extremely deep pockets.

[quadrakid]

It will be an interesting year for tourism in BC. I do nott want to guess what the future will bring but i do know that my wife and our adult kids are itching to travel and if we are welcome this summer we are heading to the mainland somewhere.
I,m sure there are a few of you mainlanders would love to have me drop in.:p

[Squamch]

I hope the Canadian ones weather the storm. I'd be pleased to hear that there were no American or Kiwi guides and ourfitters making money off BC wildlife. All the talk of money brought into BC by guiding, but when a guy from Texas pays a guy from Montana to pay a guy from New Zealand to show him where a sheep is in BC...how much of that money stays here??

[Downwindtracker2]

I've run into a couple of their gates. I've lived all my life in BC.No sympathy at all.

[browningboy]

I agree who cares!

[Treed]

I care about the ones who have worked hard to build a life out of this and are BC’ers. Not all of them are assholes. At least my friend isn’t. As much as people are into shadenfreude, I don’t wish ill will on anyone who runs a fair business based on the rules and laws and does it ethically. The jerks, crooks, and poachers are another matter.

[338win mag]

Didn't Trudeau give any cash to this industry? he did to the fisherman.

[IronNoggin]

Didn't Trudeau give any cash to this industry? he did to the fisherman.

No, he didn't. He gave a handout to the plant workers, and some fish farms, and said Good Enough - that industry is now covered.
It wasn't, and it won't be.

Nog

[jac]

If the price was right I would buy a tag but some of the prices for a trip are crazy high.

[Retiredguy]

Interestingly...but no surprise to me...Trudeau has given generous handouts all over but the Tourism industries and Farming/Agriculture were basically left out. The token gestures amount to a slap in the face for these industries. Hell the arts and other such frivolities are getting a whole lot more money, but no surprise there. He has also failed to do anything constructive for the oil and gas sectors, etc. etc.

The Liberals also have failed to deliver to the seniors. For every senior in a home, there are a hundred or more out there trying to make ends meet while inflation has slowly turned their pensions (if they had one) into a joke. Many forget, due to the socioeconomic cocoon they live in, that most Canadians have barely kept their heads above water over the years and they never made enough money to stash a pile away in pension plans of one description or another. The vast majority of jobs do not have company pension plans as are the norm for municipal, provincial and federal employees.

Trudeau promised an increase to CPP and OAS, which many attempt to survive on, but has failed to deliver. Again we see the slap in the face with a $300 and possible additional $200 dollar one time payment. Wow!!! The things one can do with an extra $20 a week!!!

No I am not surprised by the lack of funding to keep tourism afloat. Multi million dollar lodges for eco-tourism, anglers and hunters sit empty, and thousands of people are out of work with no real chance of any opening for tourism to return in any meaningful way. Not to mention the spinoff to small towns in rural communities from the warm bodies who arrive from the US, EU and elsewhere.

Politicians as a whole are an out of touch lot, out of touch with the common citizen. Many come from high income families and some even live off of family trusts. The only importance the unwashed masses have for them is whether or not they can get their votes to stay in office and on the political gravy train. Trudeau is a joke and he is pushing our country towards a black hole...and no one really knows what it will look like when it comes out the other side. It is safe to say however, that many companies in many different sectors will not survive and Tourism is going to take a real s**t kicking!

[Downwindtracker2]

I've never stayed at multi million dollar lodges or tourist resorts, nor can I see me ever affording such rich man's play . Maybe you're rich, I'm not. Conventions and cruise ships only pollute downtown Vancouver.

[knothead]

It will be an interesting year for tourism in BC. I do nott want to guess what the future will bring but i do know that my wife and our adult kids are itching to travel and if we are welcome this summer we are heading to the mainland somewhere.
I,m sure there are a few of you mainlanders would love to have me drop in.:p

Quadra I don't agree with really anything you seem to believe in but I would be happy to have a beer with you and you and your family would be welcome at my home.

[Retiredguy]

I've never stayed at multi million dollar lodges or tourist resorts, nor can I see me ever affording such rich man's play . Maybe you're rich, I'm not. Conventions and cruise ships only pollute downtown Vancouver.

Nope...I am not rich, far from it in fact, but I do not hold a lot of animosity towards the existence of these businesses. They create jobs and opportunity. It is pretty easy to be negative about things we cannot partake of, but life is not fair. There will always be things one cannot afford to do and games we cannot play.

If everyone had such a negative view of things, which is easy to do, there would be no tourism, no logging, no mining, no jobs, no society as we know it.

I am relatively new to this site, but I have to say the amount of hostility I see on here towards outfitters, the game department, etc. etc. is a bit over the top. Sad to see, but I guess it is a sign of the times.

[Downwindtracker2]

There was the allotment LEH numbers to guides. But with out a doubt the most egregious rule change was in the Kootineys(sp) . They banned motor vehicles above an elevation, so the locals got on their mountain bikes, biking Up mountains, no less. The government then bans wheeled travel. How many have a horse in their back yard, the outfitters do. Screw them. I can go and on.

[GreyDog]

We make our living from tourism and, though we will earn less this year, we'll be fine. Next year may be a little rougher but we'll still be fine. The thing is, all of our losses are directly attributable to government actions.
As far as hunting is concerned, most of my hunting is done in GO areas and relations have always been cordial. Anytime the hunt has been negatively impacted by other hunters, it has been due to the actions of BC resident hunters and never the non-resident, guided, hunters or the guides.
The actions of the outfitter in an area are almost never detrimental to my hunting experience but the actions of the logging and mining corporations often are. The proliferation of roads, disturbance of game, habitat destruction and poaching don't enhance the hunting experience any.
I try to be respectful of the outfitter and guides and expect them to be the same with me; usually, they are. GD

[BgBlkDg]

Well, there are good and bad in every human group one can think of, however, my 60+ years of varied outdoor experiences in BC, AB, NWT and a bit more in ONT, with a day in the Yukon, have made me disagree with GD.

We have seen several extreme issues with a certain high profile US GO here in BC and in AB, IIRC. In the Kootenays, where I was born and raised, there were a number of US military types who blocked access to "our mountain", in the Lardeau, there are more Americans with fancy lodges who have American staff and a disturbing attitude as well as being very vociferous in their campaign to stop hunting there.

I have never had a problem with BC-born GOs, but, some with certain foreign-born ones..........

[Retiredguy]

I have had a few issues with foreign owned outfitters over the years as well and the same with a handful of resident owned outfitters, but by and large they have been good to deal with. I worked in the industry for a long time and like all walks of life, there are a few bad apples in every group.....but overall I would say that most are good to deal with. Having said that I hear about all these American outfitters and staff all the time.....the outfitters have to jump through a lot of hoops to hire US/foreign staff legally. Same goes with the proliferation of NZ guides getting hired for the mountain hunts. It has to be approved and they need to show they cannot find suitable residents to hire.

I know it has been getting harder and harder to hire good guides and staff as the years have gone by, but I didn't think it had gotten to the point that it was rampant. Maybe it has?

For the record, I do not think that our outfitting areas should be owned by non-resident aliens. However, like all businesses a lot of games were played in the past with having a resident hold the outfitters license while the area was actually owned by an American/EU entity behind the scenes on legal documents.

[GreyDog]

I agree that their should be no foreign or non-resident owners of GO territories; just as there should be no Chinese national ownership of Canadian real estate. In fact, I think ownership of GO territories should be within region. The same with the guides. GD

[Gateholio]

I have had a few issues with foreign owned outfitters over the years as well and the same with a handful of resident owned outfitters, but by and large they have been good to deal with. I worked in the industry for a long time and like all walks of life, there are a few bad apples in every group.....but overall I would say that most are good to deal with. Having said that I hear about all these American outfitters and staff all the time.....the outfitters have to jump through a lot of hoops to hire US/foreign staff legally. Same goes with the proliferation of NZ guides getting hired for the mountain hunts. It has to be approved and they need to show they cannot find suitable residents to hire.

I know it has been getting harder and harder to hire good guides and staff as the years have gone by, but I didn't think it had gotten to the point that it was rampant. Maybe it has?

For the record, I do not think that our outfitting areas should be owned by non-resident aliens. However, like all businesses a lot of games were played in the past with having a resident hold the outfitters license while the area was actually owned by an American/EU entity behind the scenes on legal documents.



The foreign guides seem to be in response to Canadian guides choosing $400-500 a day in the oil patch while leaving them 7-14 days each month to hunt for themselves.

I suppose some outfitters don’t want resident guides that may “steal their spots” too but I suspect the oil patch is the prime reason. We may see some changes there as the patch has hit a down turn.

[BgBlkDg]

I agree that their should be no foreign or non-resident owners of GO territories; just as there should be no Chinese national ownership of Canadian real estate. In fact, I think ownership of GO territories should be within region. The same with the guides. GD

Perhaps, bit too extreme? Also, if we discriminate against Chinese ownership of Canadian real estate, how could we justify ANY other foreign ownership of the same ?

I would love to see a total rework of our hunting policies and regs. but, ain't holding my breath.

[AllDay]

How about people just post up where the foreign owned operators are and how to access the animals in that area. I'm sure that would affect business and give resident hunters more knowledge to access areas owned by non-residents. I have read one story on here were a GO was harassing residents so they brought some resident people back the following year to harvest some of the "GOs" sheep. Apparently he got the message.

My interactions with GOs have been mostly positive so far, but I haven't had a lot.