Logging damage..grrr

[srupp]

Hmmm went to scout out my one bear area..logging had happened last winter BIG TIME. .could hardly recognize the area I had spent so much time over the past 25 or so years..d endured with huge slash piles..ATV poker run trail...gone..cross country ski trails..gone..road torn to pieces by heavy equipment. .

Every side trail blocked off with buckets of rocks/soil..
No other forms of use left as options..Grrrrrrŕrrrrrrrrrrŕrrrrrrrrrrr !......
Was tempting with 10 million in equipment lined up..to leave a message..will call the owner of San Jose logging company., inconsiderate pigs.

Reavaluating bear hunting area..
However there are now over 100 roads gone. .Flooded out and destroyed by flooding., locally around Williams Lake.
Srupp

[ACE]

​Maybe it was San Jose Logging's 'one logging area' . . . ? Not cool to 'leave a message' on someones means of employment.

[pg83]

Hmmmmm

TP supply chain is F****d . They had no choice except to wack off more pecker poles.


Good ol' "Beautiful British Columbia" bent over for logging.

[srupp]

Hmm they logged the shit out of view land mountain..last year..
they logged Black creek the year before that..
Leaving a piece of paper note ?
Know the owner..that itself explains the attitude.
Srupp

[Huntingtyler123]

Well shit......

[srupp]

Well shit......

Still digesting options..
Steven

[Huntingtyler123]

Still digesting options..
Steven
Call you tomorrow afternoon sometime?

[srupp]

Call you tomorrow afternoon sometime?

Absolutely.
Steven

[MOUNTAIN MICKEY]

Logging and mining have been slowly destroying EVERYTHING in the Elk Valley for the last 50 years.

[MRP]

It sucks, but that's the way it goes. I've lost meny good spots to loging and 2 to open pit mining.

[TARCHER]

I get what SR is saying. I'm for logging as I'm here in PG and logging creates opportunity. There are companys that leave things fairly nice after they leave and there are some that leave a shit show. I dont know enough about logging/ winter logging.

[Ron.C]

Shitty. Aside from the fact you didn't mention gates, kind of sounds like the Island

[Fella]

Shitty. Aside from the fact you didn't mention gates, kind of sounds like the Island
Yep. They could train NASA astronauts for the next moon mission in some areas. Nothing but rocks left.

[saskbooknut]

Rape and pillage resource extraction is nothing new in BC.
I saw the effects in the late 60s on Vancouver Island, And in the late 70s in the Kootenays.
Logging has its place, but Iike anything else involving money, greed has a way of ruining things.
The sorry state of fisheries in BC makes me sad. I remember the glory days.

[r106]

Can't blame the logging company. Look at the government that sets the rules.

Sorry to hear your hunting grounds got ruined. Had that happen before. Not fun at all

[srupp]

Hmmm most all west of WL is no go..Indian issues just doesn't make it worthwhile or enjoyable..

this area is fairly extensive through a network of trails, fsr" one can access 3 valleys, and 2 mountains...200 kms? Access able by quad..not at all accessible by truck.
This area could be logged without the total destruction of a huge area..9 kms long..as much as I could get to before snow blocked my further progress..each side of the " road " was trashed as far as the eye could see..huge piles of slash, logs not worth the cost to truck, lots of blocks of wood..just plain torn up..pretty hard to see deer, moose, bears being able to transverse the area easily..on top of that..small ATV trails that were not pilaged..we're blocked by mounds of dirt WTF" why?
Any place flat enough to park a travel trailer looks dilibertly messed up...unusable..
I will figure out how to find a nearby area to camp on crown land..perks of intimate knowledge of the area for 25 years..and find some undisturbed real estate that holds bears..that is IF Williams lake isn't evacuated again..not supposed to do dishes, wash, shower, bathe..etc because our sewar holding tanks for the city and are currently headed to the Fraser river and on to Vancouver.
Sorry guys.logging is one thing..this is just over the top in excess.. .I will go kill a bear and feel better.
Sorry for bitching.
Apologetically
Steven

[Pauly]

And yet the government will spend millions on studying why moose and deer populations are down lol ... just a distraction tactic to shift blame from bad policy and even worse practices! If you want to find game in bc look for 30 year old regen stands that’s where they be. If you don’t mind hunting on your hands and knees to be able to see through it lol. When you open up the country you open it up to predators from coyotes up to man you also remove thermal cover, ponds dry up feed changes. Then they plant every square inch with pine they don’t plant poplar and willows or dogwood where it naturally grows it’s replaced by pine so no forage available. Sad state of affairs but hey money is the only thing that matters right??

[CranePete]

That’s really unfortunate. The hosers have a way of leaving a bad taste, certainly, aided and abetted by BCFS. Bad enough To have to endure the “Gumball Rally” attitude of yellow trucks.

[Arctic Lake]

Hope things don’t get any worse up your way Steven ! Sad to hear about the logging practices . Logging definitely provides jobs but geezzz does it have be trashed to do it ?
Arctic Lake

Hmmm most all west of WL is no go..Indian issues just doesn't make it worthwhile or enjoyable..

this area is fairly extensive through a network of trails, fsr" one can access 3 valleys, and 2 mountains...200 kms? Access able by quad..not at all accessible by truck.
This area could be logged without the total destruction of a huge area..9 kms long..as much as I could get to before snow blocked my further progress..each side of the " road " was trashed as far as the eye could see..huge piles of slash, logs not worth the cost to truck, lots of blocks of wood..just plain torn up..pretty hard to see deer, moose, bears being able to transverse the area easily..on top of that..small ATV trails that were not pilaged..we're blocked by mounds of dirt WTF" why?
Any place flat enough to park a travel trailer looks dilibertly messed up...unusable..
I will figure out how to find a nearby area to camp on crown land..perks of intimate knowledge of the area for 25 years..and find some undisturbed real estate that holds bears..that is IF Williams lake isn't evacuated again..not supposed to do dishes, wash, shower, bathe..etc because our sewar holding tanks for the city and are currently headed to the Fraser river and on to Vancouver.
Sorry guys.logging is one thing..this is just over the top in excess.. .I will go kill a bear and feel better.
Sorry for bitching.
Apologetically
Steven

[Arctic Lake]

While hunting for moose up north a couple of years ago I came across tree planting of pine that were so close together a rabbit would be lucky to move in there !
Arctic Lake

And yet the government will spend millions on studying why moose and deer populations are down lol ... just a distraction tactic to shift blame from bad policy and even worse practices! If you want to find game in bc look for 30 year old regen stands that’s where they be. If you don’t mind hunting on your hands and knees to be able to see through it lol. When you open up the country you open it up to predators from coyotes up to man you also remove thermal cover, ponds dry up feed changes. Then they plant every square inch with pine they don’t plant poplar and willows or dogwood where it naturally grows it’s replaced by pine so no forage available. Sad state of affairs but hey money is the only thing that matters right??

[srupp]

Yes , I am sorry..I was realy attached to the area..it was beautiful quiet, diversity.moose black bear, grizzlies, deer, rabbits..one of my favorite locations..I have harvested plenty of deer, bears, helped many others get deer bears in the area,.one can travel 15 kms.and never need to leave the solitude under Tha canopy, or way back.
Guess I was spoiled..I will get over it..lol or around it.

Steven

[tyreguy]

Hard to complain about logging when you choose to live in a community that the primary employer is forestry.
Ugly right off the bat but over time it creates habitat eventually, and there are certain practices the logging company has to adhere to.

[xlcc]

Too bad the situation is that bad.It is time to have a meeting with the District Manager at the Government Forestry Office and voice your concerns.

[Treed]

While hunting for moose up north a couple of years ago I came across tree planting of pine that were so close together a rabbit would be lucky to move in there !
Arctic Lake


That’s how dense pine regenerates after fire. Our planting densities have been way too low (cheaper!) and have led to a whole range of forest health issues that will negatively the mid-term timber supply. Government sets the AAC but the companies designed the shitty blocks and sounds like they didn’t take recreation interest into account.

[srupp]

Hard to complain about logging when you choose to live in a community that the primary employer is forestry.
Ugly right off the bat but over time it creates habitat eventually, and there are certain practices the logging company has to adhere to.

Yes, however in all those years this stands out for the extra..damage? No objection to logging..my neighbors are loggers..
Yes you are absolutely correct..it will eventually be habitat ....5..6.7 years..
Just got off the phone on alternative access...I only have gone in on Horsefly mountain road..
however not 1 location in 9 kms" that is 27 feet long, flat to leave my travel trailer..
I will find a location..best 3 locations for bear in Horsefly area has met San Jose logging company in past 3 years..
Cheers..everyone be safe and healthy.
Steven

[338win mag]

Hard to complain about logging when you choose to live in a community that the primary employer is forestry.
Ugly right off the bat but over time it creates habitat eventually, and there are certain practices the logging company has to adhere to.
You mean like the entire province?.....Something to said for when hunters and loggers step up and cite perceived environmental infractions...
is in my view... has reached the highest level of scrutiny we can manage without corruption.

[Pauly]

Too bad the situation is that bad.It is time to have a meeting with the District Manager at the Government Forestry Office and voice your concerns.
Voice your opinions all you want if the ministry has deemed it beetle or moth infested your shit out of luck.. I know because I tried that route with one of my whitetail spots.. forget it ! I was in the industry for 20 years so I know my stuff and I called bullshit about beetle or moth being in that area. I gave up it was impossible to argue. Even the local biologist said it was pointless. Also they don’t thin pine they leave it free to grow if you open up the stand and prune up the tree they grow to fast and the large gaps between growth rings makes for weak wood .. useless for lumber. They grow white pine in Chile and in a year they put on inches in growth it’s only good for pulp

[junkyard_g]

Speak to licensee not logger. Slash piles will get taken care of I’m sure. As far as trails, if they aren’t legally recognized trails and in the government system they generally don’t make it on the maps. When winter logging these types of trails are that noticeable. I’ve had to go clean trailheads or roads that accessed unofficial trails and campgrounds. No guarantee but licensees avoid pissing off the public when feasible. Same goes for road damage. If fsr then they legally have to clean it up, if their road permit then they have to ensure there is no environmental damage. Like I said try licensee, loggers are struggling to stay afloat right now and aren’t gonna spend anything out of pocket unless They have to.
cheers

[GreyDog]

Ugly logging practices would be less offensive were it not that everything has been given to the big corporations, all the small mills (which employed a huge segment of the province's population) have been shut down, fewer people are employed, more fuel is burnt, and the companies are piss poor corporate citizens. GD

[Jamesonm]

Interesting read. Sorry to hear the area got nuked. Sounds like some extra care would have went a long way.

[KodiakHntr]

Just so that I'm clear.... You are continually complaining that there is no game left in the area due to Indians and all the easy access, but now you are mad that a bunch of roads are blocked off and you can't access a bunch of ground with your pickup and 26' holiday trailer?

[ACE]

The 'new-age' RPF's will no doubt disagree . . . . but, when slash was burned rather than wasting time and diesel fuel to build burn piles, the cut block would 'green-up' with fireweed quickly. Birds, bugs, ungulates, bruins were drawn to this readily available food source, and it was much easier for the tree planters to do a good job. The new seedlings weren't heat/sun killed as easily with the fireweed cover. The way it's done now, the slash is a 'moon-scape for 3+ years, a higher % of new plantings die of heat/sun, it looks a mess, the logging contractor spends more time/money complying with the 'new-age' wet behind the ears RPF's . . . . Keep smilin' :mrgreen::mrgreen:

[KodiakHntr]

The 'new-age' RPF's will no doubt disagree . . . . but, when slash was burned rather than wasting time and diesel fuel to build burn piles, the cut block would 'green-up' with fireweed quickly. Birds, bugs, ungulates, bruins were drawn to this readily available food source, and it was much easier for the tree planters to do a good job. The new seedlings weren't heat/sun killed as easily with the fireweed cover. The way it's done now, the slash is a 'moon-scape for 3+ years, a higher % of new plantings die of heat/sun, it looks a mess, the logging contractor spends more time/money complying with the 'new-age' wet behind the ears RPF's . . . . Keep smilin' :mrgreen::mrgreen:


Road side processing vs. bucking on the landing.... Have to pile the roadside work areas to reduce slash loading. Its a difference in harvesting systems....

[ACE]

Road side processing vs. bucking on the landing.... Have to pile the roadside work areas to reduce slash loading. Its a difference in harvesting systems....

​Have done both . . . .

[hunterdon]

Just so that I'm clear.... You are continually complaining that there is no game left in the area due to Indians and all the easy access, but now you are mad that a bunch of roads are blocked off and you can't access a bunch of ground with your pickup and 26' holiday trailer?

It kind of does sound that way. Was thinking the same thing myself. But in all fairness to Steve, maybe he did not mean to across that way. Perhaps he's upset that the area has been messed up so bad that it's almost inaccessible to anyone, for any reason. I'm open to here his view on this.

[KodiakHntr]

It kind of does sound that way. Was thinking the same thing myself. But in all fairness to Steve, maybe he did not mean to across that way. Perhaps he's upset that the area has been messed up so bad that it's almost inaccessible to anyone, for any reason. I'm open to here his view on this.


Which is why I asked...

I know up North the local bands have asked that access be reduced in the same manner to reduce poaching and hunting access in core critical use areas. All part of the prescription by the Licencee now.

[KodiakHntr]

​Have done both . . . .

Then you would know that the "time and diesel wasted" is covered off in the log rate and the contractor is compensated for that time and diesel and it isn't out of pocket by the contractor.

[adriaticum]

Expect more and more forest in BC to be lost.
These idiots are exporting timber as so call Biomass fuel, which is basically burning wood to generate energy.
I had no idea that they were hiding deforestation as "Biomass fuel".
What a crock.

[j270wsm]

Just a thought...... is there any chance the quad/sxs trails had dirt piled on them to keep people off of them
while they were logging the area.

I dont know how any of you took Rupps post as “ poor me, my hunting area is destroyed “. Sounds to me like a guy who was disappointed to find out that a game rich area, that he loved, had be flattened by logging. Which has also left roadside camping areas unusable and trails impassable.....or maybe I’ve just miss understood all of Rupps posts and his generosity over the last 8yrs

[srupp]

Which is why I asked...

I know up North the local bands have asked that access be reduced in the same manner to reduce poaching and hunting access in core critical use areas. All part of the prescription by the Licencee now.

Hmm there are 2 areas..
1..anything west of williams lake..Indian influence..not much game..the 24 hrs day 365 does diminish numbers radically.
2..east of williams lake..likely..horsefly..really beautiful friendly places with plenty of big game, small game..lush tranquil, just to camp..fish..with no indian influence..of any kind.
When David Marsh wanted to get away..and see some bears..here is where I brought him..he could not believe how he relaxed from his stressful life..I as a Paramedic would just go here to camp..after particularly horrific incidents I witnessed on the front line..there were numerous pull outs onto crown land that Susan and Brandy..then Morgan..now Ebony would walk down trails roads or sit on the edge of the lake close by..
We took Susans Mom to the top of the mountain to see horsefly lake, Quesnel lake the beautiful snow capped Cariboo mountains
I have harvested grouse, rabbits..the singular best rabbit area I know.period.black bears..too many to count. .moose, some big deer..
The area is the only access by land to numerous cabins, summer homes..
It has an extensive cross country ski trail system..
It holds a myriad of small back trails to access the lakes.mountains and next valleys...sometimes I would go 7 days without seeing anyone in spring..in fall deer season..every other day or so a vehicle...
Yes I know these guys are on tough times..was only 10...12.. $ million in logging equipment sitting in a row awaiting restart.
I'm sure there will be some attempt at cleanup..there are a lot of huge piles to be burned..it obviously was done the cheapest way..I have seen San Jose block off entire areas they were logging..couldn't get through to go beyond..first on black creek..then on view land. .
In 9 kms Susan and I went..no there was not 1 location 26 feet to park the TT" for recreation.
I know it means nothing to them and holds no importants..there are 3 grave markers further along commemorating the lives of 3 of Horseflys pivotal individuals ....a place where they wanted to spend eternity..was a good choice.beautiful.quiet...I didn't go as far as the Clarke's crosses..so don't know how far the logging went..or will go..
there are in fact few locations like this..hence why I constantly went back.
Every other use seems precluded from here for years ?
There is one small hole in the canopy at a location..looks like nothing..huge mound of dirt dumped/ dug to obviously block what leads to a 30 km trails.hmm $ so tight why block it ? No trees were cut within 100 yards.
I wasn't upset so much as devestated by the absolute constant destruction in 7 kms in all directions..and the amount of logs left piled high..this was not high value timber cut.perhaps selective logging. .

Perhaps it's because the west..over the Fraser is not worth going..that what's left to the east means so much more..

Grieving the loss of a good friend of some 25 years...

Sportsmen covet, respect these places..mourn their loss..
this was a special place..
Srupp

[weatherby_man]

I remember going deer hunting with a buddy a number of years ago (about 10) and we had bagged out and had a few days left in our trip so we decided to go to one of his old favourite moose spots and see if we could get one or at least go for a wander. Well we drove into an area that was completely clearcut as far as the eye could see. He just about started crying and the look of pain and loss in his face was obvious. He had taken a lot of moose out of that area at one time and it was just a moonscape when we arrived. It was just a sad day. We drove around amazed at what had happened, it was beetle infested and had to go but it is devastating to someone who once knew a rich area with a healthy animal population. With that I understand srupps pain.

[bensonvalley]

​Have done both . . . .
But haven’t had to deal with C&E getting overzealous if just one square metre or tree is burnt. You want to know why burning has all but disappeared? Ridiculous prosecution is one reason. We had to spend thousands and all sorts of stress and time to go to “C&E court” because a burn escaped and burnt 3 trees....3. Guess how much burning we have done since then.... none, not worth the risk. Yes there are other reasons but this is a main one.

[ACE]

Then you would know that the "time and diesel wasted" is covered off in the log rate and the contractor is compensated for that time and diesel and it isn't out of pocket by the contractor.

Have you ever had the terms and conditions of a TS arbitrarily change 'mid-stream' . . . ?
The new-age RPF's should be lighting slash instead of their hair on fire. :mrgreen::mrgreen:

[boxhitch]

Steven, I understnd your frustration. Some of my areas had wild spaces left alone with logging all around, a mix that was acceptable imo
Then the logging happens in those 'leaves' as they are not designated wildlife or protected areas, just part of the TSL scheduled for later
It seems NSR designated lands are the only trees left standing, I think some of those are destroyed just to get to good lumber

We need to join the fight for protected areas, even if it means siding with the Anti-'s to get things done

[boxhitch]

“We cannot continue to degrade habitat and then be surprised to see the steep declines in fish and wildlife populations,” said Wildsight conservation coordinator Eddie Petryshen.

https://www.cranbrooktownsman.com/news/logging-trail-destruction-on-private-land-in-st-marys-valley-prompts-concern-from-wildsight/

[srupp]

Hmmm had a helpful suggestion by very nice gentleman..I contacted Tolko..who hired the contractor San Jose..
the gentleman was polite, knowledgeable. .and has a family member in guiding industry for years..we spoke for almost 35 minutes..
He advised me ..mine was NOT the type of feedback he desired.and it was significant someone took the time to articulate their reactions and why.
He was not aware ATV trails were merely blocked. Not logged
He was not aware there were memorials for Horsefly residents.
I will GPS THE ATV trails next weekend..86 cents litre" diesel here..if roads are open from flooded.
I will seek out back routes..
He did listen to my concerns as one who has seen a lot of logging over 30 years from the ground and by helicopter when working. And a user of his workplace..he was not very up to date on the specifics...but I'm sure that will change regarding ATV trails, snowmobile trails, cross country skiing trails..Horsefly fire dept poker run to raise monies for fire hall in Horsefly .
He seemed sympathetic to co-users of the area.
They will log the entire area to the peak over the next 18 months., then deactivate the road.
No..no you can't deactivate the road as there are 6 homes that only access is via that road..he was unaware that when the road flooded out 4 years ago forestry was forced to put in a culvert to keep the Rd open..
I gave him the GPS of the crosses , and my information if they needed any more details on the area.
Srupp

[Pauly]

Logging will only stop when their are no trees left. Pine maturity is around 90 to 120 years .. companies will not wait that long we are already logging 60 year old plantations.. once logged 3 times the site is no longer viable for planting or logging the soil has been denuded of nutrition and becomes essentially sterile

[Stone Sheep Steve]

As much as we love to hate our current Provincial Govt for taking away our grizzly hunt and other things, the previous govt absolutely gutted the Forest Practices Code.
Was talking to a now-retired former senior forester and he and his senior coworkers were absolutely appalled by our previous govt’s lack of respect for OUR forests. It’s one thing to support the resource sector but to do it without concern for the environment is a completely different matter.

SSS

[Pauly]

As much as we love to hate our current Provincial Govt for taking away our grizzly hunt and other things, the previous govt absolutely gutted the Forest Practices Code.
Was talking to a now-retired former senior forester and he and his senior coworkers were absolutely appalled by our previous govt’s lack of respect for OUR forests. It’s one thing to support the resource sector but to do it without concern for the environment is a completely different matter.

SSS
That was glen Campbell’s doing.. he gave all control over to the mills to do what they saw fit. I was still working in the Bush then. We could have controlled the beetle with fire but secretly it was allowed to spread ... salvage logging = low stumpage and raw log exports to the chinks a big boost to the bc economy at a time when our economy was slowing. We burnt more money doing fall and burn and hack and squirt it was ridiculous. Never made a dent it was all about optics trying to make it look like we were working to control it... all the while. Don’t ever trust your government they are greedy and lie through their teeth in the name of G.D.P that’s all that matters . The more wealthy a country is the more powerful we are and the more power we can wield over other countries.

[BgBlkDg]

The acceptable term is 'CHINESE', NOT 'chinks', so smarten up, eh.

[Pauly]

Sorry I wasn’t trying to be racist just a bad habit..

[Pauly]

Us old guys get stuck in our ways sometimes .. not that that’s any excuse

[CranePete]

^^^^ Also, who’s Glen Campbell? The Rhinestone Premier? Perhaps you meant Gordon...

[Pauly]

Lol yup damn spell check .. that’s what I’m blaming it on lol

[IronNoggin]

... Ugly right off the bat but over time it creates habitat eventually, and there are certain practices the logging company has to adhere to.

I strongly suggest you come over to The Rock and have a boo.
I can easily show you hundreds of sites wherein NO replanting has taken place over dozens of years on literal moonscapes.
I can also show you dozens of incidents wherein "certain practices" are blatantly ignored, such as cutting right to the shores of fish bearing streams and "trophy" lakes.
In short, it is madness.
And what you suggest IS NOT HAPPENING in any way shape nor form. Period.

Steve, I feel for you.
Watched them NUKE a hell of a lot of my favorite haunts over here to.
Heart wrenching... :cry:

Nog

[Pauly]

Back in the day fir was selective logging only now they clear cut it they get around it by saying it’s bug infested which is bull crap!! We’re loosing winter range fir in the loops at an alarming rate. The lichen that hangs on those Limbs or blown off in wind storms are a life line for the deer never mind the loss of thermal cover. What they have done to Vancouver island is gross negligence as well I’ve seen it myself.. boggles the mind they can get away with that.. but when you give millions to a campaign I guess you get that privilege

[REMINGTON JIM]

The whole Interlakes - Bonoparte Lake is Moon SCAPED in a LOT of the area - The mill in 100 mile house didn't even want any FIR ! Specialty mills buy up FIR for Beams etc in Expensive homes ! RJ

[Pauly]

All the fir here goes to tolko for peelers .. expensive plywood it’s keeping guys working just barely I can see the mill shutting down at some point

[BgBlkDg]

'old guys' well, I am 74 at the end of June, so.....

I spent 20+ years in various aspects of forestry and was howling about harvesting practices in the 1960s.....it has not improved and more immigration equals greater devastation........

[Pauly]

'old guys' well, I am 74 at the end of June, so.....

I spent 20+ years in various aspects of forestry and was howling about harvesting practices in the 1960s.....it has not improved and more immigration equals greater devastation........
Yeah I had to get out myself I was disgusted with the politics of it and just couldn’t help by voice my opinions lol back when 40 ha was a max size block it was ok. But I’ve laid out blocks in blue river that destroyed the mountain caribou habitat ... I hated that with a passion!! They need to start teaching different practices for the up and comers.. plant poplar where u log poplar .. species specific areas not jam up draws and riparian areas with pine.

[srupp]

Hmmm thank you guys..getting a education
appreciate the insights..
Cheers
Srupp

[robert05]

Steve I can understand your concerns as I as well have lost areas were I have hunted for years both to native claims
and logging. I have to believe the people on this form who do not understand have never developed this relation ship
with the land or the areas that we have worked over time and this does take years. Always seems to be people on this form that want to slag others.

[Pauly]

I was having a look at the interior mule deer study and one of the recommendations was to plant forge species where they belong in future logging areas.. problem is everything is already logged and I doubt their going back to reclaim every block in the province. Every year I buy a big bag of clover and scatter it along the roads where I hunt it really boosts the grouse numbers. I also grow a few seedlings every year and plant them in my hunting spot. Last fall I planted a few hundred white acorn in the ground at one of my whitetail spots. Lots the individual can do on our own. Plant sunflowers out their for the birds it all helps. Lots of complainers out their including myself so why not do something about it. Two or three trees a year for every hunter and voila. Ps apple trees are tough and grow great in open damp areas

[horshur]

Back in the day fir was selective logging only now they clear cut it they get around it by saying it’s bug infested which is bull crap!! We’re loosing winter range fir in the loops at an alarming rate. The lichen that hangs on those Limbs or blown off in wind storms are a life line for the deer never mind the loss of thermal cover. What they have done to Vancouver island is gross negligence as well I’ve seen it myself.. boggles the mind they can get away with that.. but when you give millions to a campaign I guess you get that privilege

But it is bug infested...the blowdown event in the fir stands this winter was epic..Shuswap North Thompson. All caused by the heavy snowfall in late December. It is now a beetle haven...

[horshur]

I was having a look at the interior mule deer study and one of the recommendations was to plant forge species where they belong in future logging areas.. problem is everything is already logged and I doubt their going back to reclaim every block in the province. Every year I buy a big bag of clover and scatter it along the roads where I hunt it really boosts the grouse numbers. I also grow a few seedlings every year and plant them in my hunting spot. Last fall I planted a few hundred white acorn in the ground at one of my whitetail spots. Lots the individual can do on our own. Plant sunflowers out their for the birds it all helps. Lots of complainers out their including myself so why not do something about it. Two or three trees a year for every hunter and voila. Ps apple trees are tough and grow great in open damp areas

White acorn is not a native species..

[Pauly]

[QUOTE=horshur;2170041]White acorn is not a native species..[/QUOTE
actually it is now it’s been in a few of my whitetail spots for years same as larch it’s all over the hills in the loops and it certainly wasn’t planted we also have grey squirrels in Kamloops now from hitching rides from the lower mainland and some of our local lakes now have red crayfish

[Pauly]

Don’t forget the city and school districts plant white and red oak on their grounds the acorns get wildly dispersed by crows and squirrels

[Pauly]

There are also wild turkeys in barrier a very small group for years now they haven’t expanded because habitat isn’t quite suitable

[Pauly]

What is a native species? Pretty much anything you find in Canada. Whitetail never showed up till the mid 80s with climate and landscape changes animals move in and adapt to favourable environments people are no different

[KodiakHntr]

I was having a look at the interior mule deer study and one of the recommendations was to plant forge species where they belong in future logging areas.. problem is everything is already logged and I doubt their going back to reclaim every block in the province. Every year I buy a big bag of clover and scatter it along the roads where I hunt it really boosts the grouse numbers. I also grow a few seedlings every year and plant them in my hunting spot. Last fall I planted a few hundred white acorn in the ground at one of my whitetail spots. Lots the individual can do on our own. Plant sunflowers out their for the birds it all helps. Lots of complainers out their including myself so why not do something about it. Two or three trees a year for every hunter and voila. Ps apple trees are tough and grow great in open damp areas

Knowingly spreading an invasive species isn't a good idea.

[tyreguy]

Thanks for this comment Pauly as this is the truth. Seeing something is wrong and doing something about it has a way better impact on the problem rather than getting behind the keyboard and spouting off.
I like (in a positive way) the way that Srupp's comments have evolved into initially a complaint on a hunting website to actually contacting the timber company regarding some questionable forest practices and by contacting the lease holder he was educated and also educated them to the concerns in this area which has a more productive outcome rather than venting on a website. I appreciate his efforts and input and hope that he continues to contribute. My reply to the initial post was the irony of living in a community supported by forestry yet complaining about logging when combined we all hunt cut blocks, travel on logging roads and in this area the economy is driven by the resource industry.
This comment not directed at anyone in particular but just a general observation, but too often this hunting site has become a Complaints Dept for whatever is the complaint of the week and it provides minimal content to the site that turns out to be enjoyable or entertaining. Seldom are there hunting experiences, which are now replaced with pissing matches, complaining about everything under the sun and testosterone filled trolls (except for Jassmine!!). Hopefully we can consider what we are contributing actually contributes something of value rather than just posting something or commenting to fire people up.

Sorry your favorite spot has changed, but a new adventure comes now as you explore new areas and who knows maybe you'll find a new spot just as good.......... but you'll have fun "hunting" for new areas. The animals will adapt and so will the hunter.


I was having a look at the interior mule deer study and one of the recommendations was to plant forge species where they belong in future logging areas.. problem is everything is already logged and I doubt their going back to reclaim every block in the province. Every year I buy a big bag of clover and scatter it along the roads where I hunt it really boosts the grouse numbers. I also grow a few seedlings every year and plant them in my hunting spot. Last fall I planted a few hundred white acorn in the ground at one of my whitetail spots. Lots the individual can do on our own. Plant sunflowers out their for the birds it all helps. Lots of complainers out there including myself so why not do something about it. Two or three trees a year for every hunter and voila. Ps apple trees are tough and grow great in open damp areas

[Pauly]

Knowingly spreading an invasive species isn't a good idea.
You know what’s invasive.. logging companies and government. At least I’m trying in my own way also nothing I plant is invasive they are natives of Canada and are beneficial to our local wild life. Are you seeding clover or planting poplar , diamond willow or red osiers? I highly doubt it, so please don’t lecture me. Elk are transplanted all over along with sheep and turkey are they invasive? Elk were in the loops 100 years ago and are gone now if they re introduced them does that constitute an invasive species then?

[Bugle M In]

Yup, a lot of changes to the landscape, since the mid to late 80's.
And then ramped up even further by the beetle by the late 90's and definitely early 2000's.

I dont recognize much of anything anymore.
The plateau above Cache Creek/Kammy and north thru Hihium/Loon and further, is barren.
Used to be such a grat place to hunt for some decent MD and chances to take a 200+ buck, or at least know they were out there.
Now, wolf tracks, small bucks more times then not, and the Moose get hammered pretty easily in all that open terrain.

We can blame a lot of issues to the decreasing wildlife pops, but, if you coincide the amount of logging with the decline, i think they go hand in hand
pretty well.
It's not the only issue, and people need to work, but jesus, the results of what has happened is beyond comprehension.

When you see a landscape, and 50% of the trees are gone, for as far as the eye can see, that cant be good.
And, i have found, that yes, some logging made for excellent "honeyholes", mostly because they logged an area that wasnt a "bedding area" and a great
location for "feed".
BUT, then they log the "bedding" area, and voila, place destroyed.

And, i found, where i hunt elk anyways, for many years now, that the logging took place more times then not, "in the bedding areas"!!!
I mean it!, anywhere were the elk would "lay for the day", got logged.
All the crap areas, that would have made for "decent feed" beside the bedding areas, lays untouched.

Somehow, the topography that is great or useful for logging, tends to be the same areas were they like to bed.
I suppose that is the problem, no studies done in a given area to determine what species use what areas for what purposes.
The only thing i know of, is that they only concern themselves with the "migration routes".
And even then, they still logged the hell out of it where i hunt MD.

Jobs, money and wildlife, dont work together, thats for sure.

[Pauly]

I’ve lost some incredible moose and deer bedding areas .. secret honey holes that were a guarantee!! My heart just sank when I went in at the beginning of a season and walked into that! Felt like stollen memories, quite upsetting. Adapt, improvise, or die I suppose. Really deer hunting has become a micro area hunt now. Habitat is so fragmented that deer really are limited to small isolated patches of quality shelter and feed, I was out the other day to one of my hot spots and they have logged completely one of the best mule deer travel corridors I have ever encountered.. my dad was with me and just went off the deep end boy was he pissed so was I. It’s really quite depressing am I the only one that feels like this? It’s hard to even have a wilderness experience any more I can barely remember what it was like to hunt through a mature pine forest with 100 yard visibility or expansive fir ridges used to be able to get lost all day it was awesome. I wish logging would just die . I was smart enough to get out 20 years ago I saw the industry decline on the way. Some of my buddies kept on and are now out of work and struggling. Such as it is.

[wildcatter]

Pretty well everything have been said in these posts, all I can add is logging practices are awful and need to change.
A steady destruction of wildlife habitat, decrease of forests, some of the huge areas that been clear cut can be seen from space.
Forest companies could learn a thing or two if they take a closer look at European forest practices.
Given, there is no true wilderness left in Europe because of deforestation in the distant past and the spread of population.
However forest management has been changed and they actually made a lot of improvements, whereas things here going the opposite way.

[srupp]

Hmmm logging has the choice of methods..sustainable. .and consider other land users. .now several groups involved looking over this situation.from government...to forester who hired the contractors.
I'm going back tomorrow to do some GPS work on specific issues / locations..no one said tough luck..all will have a look the situation on what works for everyone.
I will check out 3 areas around there to see flooding, snow levels..hell"..even forest fires..plus access without being too near logging..forester said logging would resume May 18 the. .I hope to be home with a couple bears before that...

My intention was never bitching and running..I had some very helpful points from great guys on this site...and always planned on going up the ladder..not to stop logging but knowing what the rules are for logging practices..and why block ATV active trails..etc

I want to be associated with constructive criticism and suggested improvements..not just complain on a forum.to better the lot of hunters, wildlife and the environment. I have done that.
I will not mention folks here who have been helpful, kind who have employment that gave them methods to help.
5 separate individuals who share..SO wildlife, hunters, outdoor users get the benefit of their knowledge....
To those individuals THANK YOU
Cheers
Srupp

[Bugle M In]

I dont begrudge the folks in Forestry.
I accept that logging is a way for people to work, and feed their families, and yes, trees are "renewable resource", just like our hunting, so lets not be
hypocrites, and besides, we get to enjoy many of the roads they make for us to gain access. (we just dont need "all of them").

We need Forestry, but i wonder if it would be possible to change it's reason for being (thinking out loud here, without deep thought).
I wonder if it could be done in a "not for profit" way.
Meaning, yes, we pay the folks a decent wage to harvest the trees, and all the things that come with it, replanting etc.
The lumber sold is to pay for the expenses required to get it to "retail" etc.
Some money for retooling etc as well.
But after that, not enough for some "big wig" to sit on a 150ft yacht and "call the shots".
Maybe take it back from those big corporations, reel it back to every community out there, small towns, to run it????

Maybe those profits made now, would be the money that would be used to "plant the right stuff, the right way", not just stuff as many of a certain species
of tree, in a cut, that maximizes "future returns".

In other words, the price of lumber wouldn't change (granted, dictated by the world markets etc), but by sinking the profits back into the land just
harvested, and by removing the "big shots" involved, that maybe we could change the outcome of logging???

Again, just wondering if that would be possible? if that would make a difference.
But the way it is going, the forestry companies are eating themselves out of house and home, and the wildlife suffers along with it.
No sustainable by any means the way this current format is, imo.

[wildcatter]

Nice idea, but not likely to happen, there are way to many rich and powerful people in the industry (and the government) to oppose.

[KodiakHntr]

You know what’s invasive.. logging companies and government. At least I’m trying in my own way also nothing I plant is invasive they are natives of Canada and are beneficial to our local wild life. Are you seeding clover or planting poplar , diamond willow or red osiers? I highly doubt it, so please don’t lecture me. Elk are transplanted all over along with sheep and turkey are they invasive? Elk were in the loops 100 years ago and are gone now if they re introduced them does that constitute an invasive species then?


Get pissy all you want, but from what you have already posted you have confirmed what I had already suspected about you. A very significant portion of what you have posted in this thread could be construed as misinformation at best, and outright bullshit at worst.

Unless you can guarantee that the what you are planting is weed free and naturally occurring on the landscape where you are spreading seed then you are spreading invasive species. Period.

Major licencees have had to change grass seed mixtures over the last couple of years due to this, going from "forestry seed" to specifics for each area based on concerns from FN bands and the spread of plant and grass species that are native to those areas and that don't choke out plants that ARE native.

And yes, over the course of my career I HAVE planted red osier dogwood, and willows, and aspen shoots for a multitude of reasons.

[Pauly]

Get pissy all you want, but from what you have already posted you have confirmed what I had already suspected about you. A very significant portion of what you have posted in this thread could be construed as misinformation at best, and outright bullshit at worst.

Unless you can guarantee that the what you are planting is weed free and naturally occurring on the landscape where you are spreading seed then you are spreading invasive species. Period.

Major licencees have had to change grass seed mixtures over the last couple of years due to this, going from "forestry seed" to specifics for each area based on concerns from FN bands and the spread of plant and grass species that are native to those areas and that don't choke out plants that ARE native.

And yes, over the course of my career I HAVE planted red osier dogwood, and willows, and aspen shoots for a multitude of reasons.

well can’t make everyone happy and theirs always a critic isn’t their and I couldn’t care what others think it’s not a popularity contest lol I am well educated R.P.F and am familiar with the B.S and politics of it all. I can guarantee you I’m causing no damage to anything unlike our wonderful government rape the land policy. Any how some hunters long after I’m gone will be thanking me.

[Pauly]

Ps I don’t plant grass seed or anything considered noxious I’m fully aware of the invasive weed problem

[Downwindtracker2]

I came late to hunting, construction workers who took time off in the fall didn't see work until spring. Only when I had a steady job did get serious about hunting. I went out with a fellow worker . Hunting around Loon Lake was like hunting in a park. It had been selectively logged, now it's 264WM territory.

[Springer]

A little off topic but i watched a Great Movie on You Tube called " Valley of the Humans" ..Talk about the Biomass fuel being burned instead of Coal , Oil and Gas. what an eye opener to see where our forests are ending up in order to turn a turbine to give us electricity. Michael Moore is the Executive producer but hes not in the Documentary...some are not fans of him.
Politics and Greed at their finest.

Sorry about your spot getting Trashed Steve.

[srupp]

A little off topic but i watched a Great Movie on You Tube called " Valley of the Humans" ..Talk about the Biomass fuel being burned instead of Coal , Oil and Gas. what an eye opener to see where our forests are ending up in order to turn a turbine to give us electricity. Michael Moore is the Executive producer but hes not in the Documentary...some are not fans of him.
Politics and Greed at their finest.

Sorry about your spot getting Trashed Steve.

Ya Buddy. .it's the spot I took you in to show you HUGE CEDARS..you standing on a old cedar bear den..I tried calling you ..you were not home..
Andy Miller says HI..lol
Cheers be safe
Regards
Steven

[nature girl]

Ah if its the area I am thinking you are talking about. It was a beautiful peaceful spot. I can see how you would be mad and emotional. That is a long time 25 years to be hunting in a area like that. How you get to know where certain animals like to hang out. When is the best time to hunt. Just a great area to sit back and relax.
Now myself I don't even want to go back to that area maybe I should just remember it how it was.

[MattB]

Can't blame the logging company. Look at the government that sets the rules.

Sorry to hear your hunting grounds got ruined. Had that happen before. Not fun at all
I was going to post the exact same thing. Want to point fingers point them to government.

[srupp]

Hmm knew exactly where to send the guys last year..to within 50 yards for black bear..
know not just where but the exact location the remainder 2 grizzly cubs hang out..
Where was THE BEST rabbit 1/2 mile..I know of..
I self isolated there everyou spring..fall..for 25 years..big change..not much for change..but will learn..
Know the cross country ski trails, snowmobile trails, ATV trails..maybe 200 kms of trails..from the top of the mountain to the lake..to 2 valleys over..

Hmm Susan is worried..I am headed back in the neighborhood with the truck alone..and over to Hen Ingram..Keno, wife lake..
Great friend will come look see if I don't return by 10 pm..he is x Paramedic..x search and rescue..avid 4 x. 4" knows where I'm going.l with the Fords starting issues.I should take my ATV as backup..famous last words..lol
Let's hope find some level ground to park my TT" and the road doesn't wash out behind me or deep snow..or..some good black bear spots.
Cheers
Guys
Srupp

[Pauly]

Good luck and remember it’s no fun if your not getting dirty lol

[rageous]

Can you tell the difference from black bear vs grizzly bear skull Srupp?

[REMINGTON JIM]

Can you tell the difference from black bear vs grizzly bear skull Srupp?

Wow ! There's a Cheap shot - Whats bringing that on :confused: RJ

[Pauly]

Wow ! There's a Cheap shot - Whats bringing that on :confused: RJ
Cheap like borscht!!

[Ubertuber]

My favorite moose area for the last 18 years got wiped out by logging a couple of years ago. Decimated two natural licks and countless game trails. I'm still in shock when I go there. I don't blame the loggers, they're just doing their job, but it still sucks. I'm sure the area will be productive again in another decade or so.

[srupp]

Can you tell the difference from black bear vs grizzly bear skull Srupp?

No no I can't. .just sitting there..never could..one bear skull looks like another to me..

Hmm mm
Cheers
Srupp

[KodiakHntr]

One point that hasn't come up, that would prevent the shock of this in the future, is that all licencees have to provide the opportunity for public input. They do that by advertising their development plans prior to going forward with any work (meaning $$$ invested in recci's and layout) in the local papers. That is your opportunity to go in and talk to the planners about what they are going to be working on, and to see what areas are going to be logged in the future. That is your chance to go voice your concerns.

[Salty]

Well, its BC we cut trees here. Give it a half dozen years and it won't be as nice to us humans granted but the animals will be in quality chow.

[snipersights]

Hmmm went to scout out my one bear area..logging had happened last winter BIG TIME. .could hardly recognize the area I had spent so much time over the past 25 or so years..d endured with huge slash piles..ATV poker run trail...gone..cross country ski trails..gone..road torn to pieces by heavy equipment. .

Every side trail blocked off with buckets of rocks/soil..
No other forms of use left as options..Grrrrrrŕrrrrrrrrrrŕrrrrrrrrrrr !......
Was tempting with 10 million in equipment lined up..to leave a message..will call the owner of San Jose logging company., inconsiderate pigs.

Reavaluating bear hunting area..
However there are now over 100 roads gone. .Flooded out and destroyed by flooding., locally around Williams Lake.
Srupp


If if you ever come to Vancouver island let me know Steve. There is more then enough bear area here.

[MontyLake]

I've only been to Region 6 three times, but I sure recall the first time we went and stayed at a well used campsite that was surround by a carpet of moose hair from years of discarded hides. Pulled two moose out of there, identified trails and wallows, the place was ideal It was already been logged quite a few years before so figured it would be safe. Went back the next time we got an LEH and it had been nuked.

Went to a different sub region of 6 the next time, got a moose, tried to help a bow hunter who wounded one, but it got away and we identified ideal moose transit areas from a small lake through some aspens up to a larger lake. I even considered a tree stand one trial was so prominent.

Talked to the bow hunter the next year as we'd stayed in touch and he reported that it had all been logged flat right in the area I'm speaking of. These are all spots that had been well logged once already. They go back to get what they left the first time.

[ACE]

I don't blame the loggers, they're just doing their job, but it still sucks.

Think of the loggers when you reach for that toilet paper . . . . :mrgreen::mrgreen:

[Bugle M In]

Think of the loggers when you reach for that toilet paper . . . . :mrgreen::mrgreen:

HANG ON...WHAT!!!!!
You have TOILET PAPER!!???????

[goatdancer]

Back in the early '90s my buddy and I went hunting in the east Kootenays. Somewhere up in the White River area we came across a sign that said "This is a managed forest" by some local forest company. My buddy looked at me and said " Well it looks like they managed to turn it into a moonscape". It was clearcut as far as the eye could see. I guess it's just a matter of perspective and perception. Very sad.

[srupp]

Hmm the forestry company has been very helpful.
received update from forester..
Already they had equipment fixing the damage done to the roads.saw 3 heavy duty vehicles doing the repairs yesterday
They have notified the on site lead hand where the grave markers are..they won't be logged over.
They have asked for where the blocked ATV trails are..even if ? They didn't deposit the dirt blockage..but will ensure they are removed.
Very responsible appreciated response by the manager. .and lead hand..
I will get GPS location of blocked trails and have contact of who I can pass it on to...it will be dealt with..Hmmm they DID in just days deal with my concerns over road issues by heavy machinery. .
So far cautiously opomistic. .did find a a place for my travel trailer a few kms away. .will check it out 10th of may.
Cold. .wet..snow..no greening up..will be 3 weeks behind what's normal for past 25 years in there. .

Hmm see something..say something..it might just do more than bitching..the letter out to forman from forester was positive in ALL aspects.
Srupp

[Pauly]

Hmm the forestry company has been very helpful.
received update from forester..
Already they had equipment fixing the damage done to the roads.saw 3 heavy duty vehicles doing the repairs yesterday
They have notified the on site lead hand where the grave markers are..they won't be logged over.
They have asked for where the blocked ATV trails are..even if ? They didn't deposit the dirt blockage..but will ensure they are removed.
Very responsible appreciated response by the manager. .and lead hand..
I will get GPS location of blocked trails and have contact of who I can pass it on to...it will be dealt with..Hmmm they DID in just days deal with my concerns over road issues by heavy machinery. .
So far cautiously opomistic. .did find a a place for my travel trailer a few kms away. .will check it out 10th of may.
Cold. .wet..snow..no greening up..will be 3 weeks behind what's normal for past 25 years in there. .

Hmm see something..say something..it might just do more than bitching..the letter out to forman from forester was positive in ALL aspects.
Srupp
Well done. Someone maybe got a new one chewed ?

[Leaseman]

Way to go Buddy!!:cool:

[Avalanche123]

Good ending Srupp. Your post nearly went sideways too like some posts do. Like others, my prior career was in Forestry and I was a bit shocked to see the digression of values.....and yes my town was once a forest dependent town.
Nice work on on resolving the issue and yes...sorry to hear the loss of your spot.

[303savage]

I just heard on the news that Trudy is going to ban 1500 kinds of guns, I didn't know there were that many kind if guns. If you perch the internet "Gun ownership and gun death by country the countris with the lesser number of guns have the most gun deaths https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate