New Law For Region 4 EK..

[hunter1947]

https://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=https%3A%2F%2Fapps.nrs.gov.bc.ca%2Fahte%2F content%2Fimplement-no-intentional-feeding-or-baiting-ungulates-kootenay-region%3Ffbclid%3DIwAR3cX8EX2yT2WaLg5BX4uiuR0lrDDc 3dH0esD83dkOf946Pt9dt9APycPkQ&h=AT2b4-Zbyh-sMVlSZTdVPreMHtiF6fdTXISdYwHrYC2wG227OR4-ON692PtBRkqi8S-FHt07NCUR1YEg8Pack5MkkxA3noXsBIIruIXpoY4RAxMzGN0gA uIw2Bs-ybrklWM5hquE22kARdnMcnM

(Only a proposal)
I will still put out trail cams but not salt blocks or bait..

[butcher]

Just a proposal at this point.

[rocksteady]

I call bs... no scientific evidence that salt blocks can contribute to the alleged spread of cwd...

Another knee jerk reaction..

[Caribou_lou]

I call bs... no scientific evidence that salt blocks can contribute to the alleged spread of cwd...

Another knee jerk reaction..

We seem to be past the days decisions are made off scientific data.

[RambleOn]

We seem to be past the days decisions are made off scientific data.

There's the truth.

[HarryToolips]

We seem to be past the days decisions are made off scientific data.
Ya it's a shame.....

[hunter1947]

Just a proposal at this point.

Yes your correct just a proposal will see what happens in the near future ??

[hunter1947]

(My thread link is only a proposal)
(Here is my take on feeding salt blocks to deer ,elk and other prey animals)

If implemented first off the cattleman feed salt to there cows all year round farmers feed salt to there horses as well ,etc and what's stopping elk and deer coming into the farmland
and licking the salt that is present the law would have to tell the farmers and cattleman no more salt allowed to put out.

Secountley is if the regs say no more salt allowed in region 4 what about all other regions in BC ??? if implemented the new law should state the whole BC not just region 4,same species
lick salt in all other regions same senorial ..

Science works most of the time but not all the time and what the management is saying that can cause diseases is a crock unless they can prove from science and they have solid
proof that deer elk etc can get densities.

I would think that management would have to fence off an area and put some deer ,elk in the pened area for many years and put out salt blocks year around for many year to see if there
science is correct..

All and all management should be more focused on controlling predators then worrying about what salt blocks might do to prey animals,,like I said show proof that salt will give diseases
prey and predators,,I would say that wolf numbers take more game animals then all hunters road kills do in a calendar year ..

All and all to do with the decline in prey animals is not salt blocks the cause management have to look in the mirror at themselves first on how they can bring back elk and deer numbers .

The way I see all on the reduced deer population fist off no more early junior season,,shorter deer season for mule deer GOS,,shorter elk season put GOS out of the rut for the elk season
Oct 10th for 4 weeks or on LEH in low populated area till numbers get established ,GOS for elk antler restrictions 3 point or better for the four week period..

Mule deer GOS Sept 10 closed Dec first WT deer can withstand the GOS that is in place they have a much better recover rate then mule deer do,,also need more back road closures throughout
BC..

Pushing new roads into remote areas for logging taking the big timber out that is wintering range for prey animals I know that loggers have to make a living but a factore on wildlife as for
making it more accessible for motorized units to enter further back into remote areas making it more easy for wolf packs to travel on these roads,,many hunter would be surprised on how
much wolfs travel all logging roads to look for prey animals..

Management have to do something to control the wolf population in order to bring back the deer,elk population wolf population is # one factor why prey animals are low in numbers,,wolf population has exploded in BC
in big number.
My thoughts on bag limit for wolves ,,unlimited bag limit for wolves year round and no elevation limit for wolves until wolf population is under control ,,management have in place compulsory inspection in parts of regions
in BC I would like to see this canned and put a 200.00 dollar bounty on wolves when dropped off to management would give more encouragement for hunters to go out nd hunt for wolves..

One good thing about wolves is they control the coyote population ,,coyotes take down lots of deer in a calendar year and domestic animals ,,a few times over the years when shed hunting I have come across wt deer that
have been killed by only one coyote the deer was still all in tack and still warm the snow tells me there was only one coyote that took this wt deer down.

I see all this because of having trail cams out in the regions and spending countless hours in the mountains,,cattleman having there cows out in high low elevations on crown land eating all the vegetation up is another factor
on declining prey population.

All and all its a big circle on everything why our prey animals have declined and I am far from knowing it all but this is what my thoughts are to help bring back prey animals like it or not..

[Piperdown]

Wayne log onto the site cut and paste your post, maybe edit it a bit (or not) to just address the proposal you are replying to. Also while you are at it look at all the other proposals, even if you do not use per say crossbows but disagree about the new proposal put your thoughts out there, same for any other changes in any other area because if it gets approved in one region then they will move to the next on and so on and so on!!

[GEF]

Kind of like a day care for your kid doesn't pass on sickness, no scientific evidence! Not that I agree with the law .Especially with all of the natural licks out there but it cant help.It would be like having one ice cream cone for your whole neighborhood to have a lick .You don't think that would pass on illness?

[Bugle M In]

So, does that mean that cattle ranchers will no longer be able to purchase this stuff?
Are salt blocks completely banned from BC??

Anyways, I don't use them at all!...ever or have cams!.
So it doesn't matter to me...BUT...I still think it is just more Stupid thinking by those who come up with this shit!

Yes, gone way beyond science on this stuff anymore...fully agree!

And you know why?
Because if they do nothing. because they know they cant do anything due to no cure right now, that eventually when the disease does spread
into BC, which it will, its inevitable at this point, they will get blamed by some who will then say "they did nothing"!!

That's the issue!
Hunters are really divided on a great deal of issues in BC.
One wants 4pt, the next wants Doe off limits, the next thinks this and he next guy thinks that.

We are so F'd by each and everyone one of us, and it's shows right down to our Bios and these proposals!
Stupid is as a stupid does!
And we have way too much of it in BC!

[sthdslayer]

"We are so F'd by each and everyone one of us, and it's shows right down to our Bios and these proposals!
Stupid is as a stupid does!
And we have way too much of it in BC!"

Which is why the groups at the table must demonstrate leadership and ensure that proposals reflect their respective memberships position which should be derived from informed consultation not closed door meeting of a handful of well meaning individuals . These guys are showing up at meetings and doing their best but it is unclear where there mandate comes from, is it the formal backing of their respective organizations or are they left to be cannon fodder as has been demonstrated by many threads here lately.

[338win mag]

So, does that mean that cattle ranchers will no longer be able to purchase this stuff?
Are salt blocks completely banned from BC??

Anyways, I don't use them at all!...ever or have cams!.
So it doesn't matter to me...BUT...I still think it is just more Stupid thinking by those who come up with this shit!

Yes, gone way beyond science on this stuff anymore...fully agree!


That's the issue!
Hunters are really divided on a great deal of issues in BC.
One wants 4pt, the next wants Doe off limits, the next thinks this and he next guy thinks that.

We are so F'd by each and everyone one of us, and it's shows right down to our Bios and these proposals!
Stupid is as a stupid does!
And we have way too much of it in BC!Sounds like its just where they want us.

[Bugle M In]

My statement were made out of anger and more so "frustration".
I stand behind my words, but there is more to it then just my simplified rant, if I am going to be totally honest.
My take:

I suspect one of our big issues in BC is that we are very slow to "react" in regards to management.
A simplified example would be the elk in the EK back in the late 90's.
The Bios and regulation folks at the table reacted to the info that elk were disappearing in the EK back then.
Which was going on a long time, and many blamed the "large" cow leh, and there was truth in that.
And it led to reduced cow harvest and as well the 6pt restriction.
Thing is, by that point in the late 90's, there were new issues happening...the cow issue was somewhat "old news" by that time.
At this point, we probably had a pred issue starting to erupt as well as major logging issues in the valleys.
And really, we still haven't addressed these newer issues, although they have actually been going on for years now!

In other words, we aren't reacting in "real time" as far as our management plan goes.
How can you have a NA game management policy if it takes you 20 years to respond to an issue??

Plus, one more thing, not all these issues like logging are something that can be addressed in our Ministry and hunting regs.
Its a group effort and issues.

Unless we change how we get info fast enough and if we don't address the facts that we are so low in applying the science that exists,
we are never going to turn this around.
ITs a big group effort and I really don't see it happening to be frank.
On top of that, there is no political will unless it helps in getting votes from the majority of folks....in the city.
Totally screwed and the folks at the table with these proposals are dealing with stuff with basically both arms tied behind there backs.

No money for CO's.
No money for proper counts.
No money to apply to good sound management.
And no political support...just a lot of talk.

[stosto]

I come on here, rarely, to get out my bubble. Sadly, seeing these attitudes make this bubble seem dumb. Why oppose something that will almost certainly betefit us, the main stakeholders. Brainiacs, to reduce the spread of disease this is why restaurants wash their utensils between clients.

[GreyDog]

I don't care whether or not it passes on illness; I never have liked the concept of baiting animals. Now, there are mineral licks and it has long been common practice, especially by outfitters, to "enhance" these licks. It has also become common practice to set out salt blocks and use game cameras to see if they want to waste the energy climbing up to look for a ram or bull. I think there are some grey areas but I am all for stopping the deliberate baiting of ungulates. I am also just fine with the concept of baiting predators. I think trail cams should be out of the woods one week prior to opening day. GD

[hunter1947]

My thoughts on what I stated above post I will copy and sent this to Victoria jutland road to wildlife management and let them know my concerns..

[Piperdown]

My thoughts on what I stated above post I will copy and sent this to Victoria jutland road to wildlife management and let them know my concerns..

Good on you Wayne, also go to the site and you can vote for your concerns, we have till Jan 17 i think, to get our views into the survey, everyone needs to do this!!

[Bugle M In]

I don't care whether or not it passes on illness; I never have liked the concept of baiting animals. Now, there are mineral licks and it has long been common practice, especially by outfitters, to "enhance" these licks. It has also become common practice to set out salt blocks and use game cameras to see if they want to waste the energy climbing up to look for a ram or bull. I think there are some grey areas but I am all for stopping the deliberate baiting of ungulates. I am also just fine with the concept of baiting predators. I think trail cams should be out of the woods one week prior to opening day. GD

Nothing wrong with a different point of view.
Being honest is fine in regards to how one sees baiting, either for or against.
At least you are stating exactly what it is you don't like.

Some will "hide behind" baiting and agreeing with banning baiting to not spread cwd, when really they just hate baiting.

And the reality is, if you are going to ban baiting in regards to cwd, it may slow it at first, but eventually it is another useless regulation
that did "not help prevent cwd".
Just a regulation that had "0" impact.

And we have a ton of those! useless Regs.

We need to stop piddling around arguing over these "minor" reg changes!
That all they do is limit hunters.
But will never ever rectify the issues!
Just draws it out longer folks, but the decline will happen because we never addressed the "Real issues"
Why don't people get that????

[Bugle M In]

Example of my above said post.
Just got an email about an update on the Hunters for BC FB site.
Took a peek and yes, it was a video for the site, and to give a little of a snapshot about what Hunters for BC are about.
AND, of course, you can "comment" right below it.

Well, for christs sakes, right below it someone says "yes agree, we should start by making it only 4 pt season".
Next one says "No, keep any buck, just get rid of Doe or Cow harvest"
And the list goes on folks!
Right there, a great example of how divided we are and worse, how far off base we are!

If one subscribes to the NA management plan, then you will see it allows for female harvests.
And there is a tone of science behind it!
None of the other comments those folks made has any science or studies behind it that says their way would work.

And, to boot, the thing these folks, and there are many of them in BC that aren't getting it:
Is the issues are way deeper then just putting some regs out and thinking the new changes to hunters will fix it!

IT WONT!!
It can help with great plans in place and a ton of effort, but all by itself, its useless.
And we didn't get to this state of affairs in BC because our Regs were too lax.
Nope, tons of other shit going on that created this.
Wake up folks.

[kootenay88]

My statement were made out of anger and more so "frustration".
I stand behind my words, but there is more to it then just my simplified rant, if I am going to be totally honest.
My take:

I suspect one of our big issues in BC is that we are very slow to "react" in regards to management.
A simplified example would be the elk in the EK back in the late 90's.
The Bios and regulation folks at the table reacted to the info that elk were disappearing in the EK back then.
Which was going on a long time, and many blamed the "large" cow leh, and there was truth in that.
And it led to reduced cow harvest and as well the 6pt restriction.
Thing is, by that point in the late 90's, there were new issues happening...the cow issue was somewhat "old news" by that time.
At this point, we probably had a pred issue starting to erupt as well as major logging issues in the valleys.
And really, we still haven't addressed these newer issues, although they have actually been going on for years now!

In other words, we aren't reacting in "real time" as far as our management plan goes.
How can you have a NA game management policy if it takes you 20 years to respond to an issue??

Plus, one more thing, not all these issues like logging are something that can be addressed in our Ministry and hunting regs.
Its a group effort and issues.

Unless we change how we get info fast enough and if we don't address the facts that we are so low in applying the science that exists,
we are never going to turn this around.
ITs a big group effort and I really don't see it happening to be frank.
On top of that, there is no political will unless it helps in getting votes from the majority of folks....in the city.
Totally screwed and the folks at the table with these proposals are dealing with stuff with basically both arms tied behind there backs.

No money for CO's.
No money for proper counts.
No money to apply to good sound management.
And no political support...just a lot of talk.


COs start at $72,000 would hardly call that nothing...

[guest]

COs start at $72,000 would hardly call that nothing...

And then theres comments like the above that is a REAL understanding of over all sound management......wow.

[hunter1947]

What a crock been logged into my account ,,BCEID now for 0ver 30 min and can't find where to go to post my concerns on the new proposals for 2020 ??? where do
I go after I have logged into my account ??? bull is what it is

[Piperdown]

Wayne the link i sent you is where you voice your concerns, once you login on that link then just click on the individual proposals

[hunter1947]

Wayne the link i sent you is where you voice your concerns, once you login on that link then just click on the individual proposals

Ok thanks will try this in few min..

[Bugle M In]

COs start at $72,000 would hardly call that nothing...

Has absolutely nothing to do with the issues CO's have with money.
It might be why the Ministry/Government may not want to hire more CO's in part, but NOT what I was talking about.

The CO's don't have enough officers to be in the field, covering a lot of areas at the same time.
The CO's don't have the money to take their work trucks into the field.
(they aren't even allowed to take them home anymore, and if they get a call at 3 am, have to go to the office first)

Wages have nothing to do with the CO's not being able to do their job effectively.

I bet if you asked the CO's who are concerned about the XBow issues they encounter and thus the scope ban proposal now before us,
if they would rather support the scope ban, or 50% more officers in the province with full funding to get out in the field.
Which do you think they would prefer, which would be more effective in the long run.
Doubt it would be in support of the scope ban then.

[IronNoggin]

... I bet if you asked the CO's who are concerned about the XBow issues they encounter and thus the scope ban proposal now before us, if they would rather support the scope ban, or 50% more officers in the province with full funding to get out in the field. Which do you think they would prefer, which would be more effective in the long run.
Doubt it would be in support of the scope ban then.

That particular point is moot.
They, by their own actions, actively campaigned for an end to bowhunting only seasons, fell back to banning crossbows, then to banning scopes.

THAT is NOT their call. Asking for increased numbers, finances and supporting legislation is.
Not this Bullshit.
And by their social engineering aspirations, they have dropped a significant margin in my mind's eyes.

Eff them and the horse they rode in on in this particular regard.

Nog

[HighCountryBC]

The CO's don't have the money to take their work trucks into the field.
(they aren't even allowed to take them home anymore, and if they get a call at 3 am, have to go to the office first)

Wages have nothing to do with the CO's not being able to do their job effectively.


What the hell are you talking about? This is completely false.

[LBM]

What the hell are you talking about? This is completely false.

Ya theres lots out there that goes on that he doesn't know about.

[pro 111]

The only way they really hunt in Saskatchewan is over bait.
Maybe ask around out there and see if its making deer sick and if there chronic wasting disease in that province.
They bait deer , elk , moose , and bears. They have a shit ton of all those species. Maybe there doing something were not?

[LBM]

The only way they really hunt in Saskatchewan is over bait.
Maybe ask around out there and see if its making deer sick and if there chronic wasting disease in that province.
They bait deer , elk , moose , and bears. They have a shit ton of all those species. Maybe there doing something were not?

More mis information I have friends with ranches there and friends that live there non of them hunt over bait.
but ya lots of there mulies elk and moose are on LEH so some thing we should look into.

[HighCountryBC]

More mis information I have friends with ranches there and friends that live there non of them hunt over bait.
but ya lots of there mulies elk and moose are on LEH so some thing we should look into.

Baiting is heavily practised in Saskatchewan. That's not misinformation.

As far as LEH - wide open farmland where you can literally see for miles is just a little different than the mountainous terrain over much of BC

[LBM]

Baiting is heavily practised in Saskatchewan. That's not misinformation.

As far as LEH - wide open farmland where you can literally see for miles is just a little different than the mountainous terrain over much of BC


His comment was the only real way they really hunt in Saskatchewan is over bait which is not true.
And yes different terrain that's why people have to quit comparing other places to B.C. and say it works there etc, hell each
region of B.C. has to be looked at differently and in some areas each MU can not be compared.

[guest]

I know of 2 fellows in Sask that harvest huge WTs and MDeer if they are drawn in Sask every year. Lots of glassing, days days and days of it. Throughout the year. They watch specific bucks grow up. Then........ stalk within bow range, or rifle depending on season dates and location of the biggys at the time. These 2 do not use baits. Bucks in the 180 to 200 plus range. The open range and habits allow this. These 2 good hunters could not do this in BC year after year.

That said for deer Sask baits. Alberta no baits allowed . Both have CWD. Both provinces are them selves HUGE BAIT PILES.

So question for all officials making decisions here in BC....... are you closing all cattle ranches, horse farms, etc etc, alphalpha fields? Removing all Salt blocks ....... is the ministry going to destroy all natural licks........ phaaack wheres it end.

BC needs to be managed each MU on its own....... until then the pointless rules continue to show up in print without sound science to back up stupid decisions like GBear, Cats Next, B Bears Wolves etc etc to Sheep Goats Deer etc.

Knee jerk reactions again. Same old same old.

[pro 111]

More mis information I have friends with ranches there and friends that live there non of them hunt over bait.
but ya lots of there mulies elk and moose are on LEH so some thing we should look into. Well lets just say that in my opinion i think theres alot more deer baiting in Sask then in BC. Point was if there not getting into trouble with CWD there then its probably not an issue baiting in BC. Yes they do hunt outa the picup as well . At 100 miles an hour. lol. I have lots of friends there that hunt. more than 50% of the big deer they get ,they get them of a bait pile sitting in a hut.

[hunter1947]

Like I have said WTF are the management thinking only having region 4 no baiting salt or other ??? if they are going to make it a law no baiting with
salt or other bait then make the enforcement it the entire provence ..

[hunter1947]

More mis information I have friends with ranches there and friends that live there non of them hunt over bait.
but ya lots of there mulies elk and moose are on LEH so some thing we should look into.


I agree with your thoughts Alberta has there regs and LEH season in place way better then BC I have been told from others that
if you don't get an LEH draw after 5 years then your automatically picked in the fifth year for a species you have been putting in for for 5 years..

The island roosevelt LEH draw my brother in law has been putting in for elk LEH on Vancouver island evanescence the draw was in place..

I believe the LEH draw started on the Vancouver island for Roosevelt elk in the mid fifties my brother in law now is 74 go figure i ..
What we need in BC is for our management to look into how Alberta and saskatchewan regs are in place,,it's been 31 years for me putting
in for LEH for roosevelt on vancouver island..

Vancouver island has as many elk as all of the EK my thoughts are that the Vancouver island elk can handle more LEH draws in a calendar year..;-)

[Wild one]

Baiting is heavily practised in Saskatchewan. That's not misinformation.

As far as LEH - wide open farmland where you can literally see for miles is just a little different than the mountainous terrain over much of BC

The Northern half of Saskatchewan you would be lucky to see 100yards. The mountains in B.C. provide way more visibility do to elevation changes, heavy logging, alpine, and mountain sides that are poorly suited for vegetation growth. A large portion of both Alberta/Saskatchewan is boreal forest not farm land, prairie, or badlands. It is straight up thick bush, swamp, and muskeg. This is not the only bush hunting available either

Like many others you need to realize there is a variety of different terrain/habitat in the province outside of B.C.

[Piperdown]

Wayne our elk on the island are taking a shit kicking for a certain user group, so all is not Rosey here!!

[Wild one]

I agree with your thoughts Alberta has there regs and LEH season in place way better then BC I have been told from others that
if you don't get an LEH draw after 5 years then your automatically picked in the fifth year for a species you have been putting in for for 5 years..

The island roosevelt LEH draw my brother in law has been putting in for elk LEH on Vancouver island evanescence the draw was in place..

I believe the LEH draw started on the Vancouver island for Roosevelt elk in the mid fifties my brother in law now is 74 go figure i ..
What we need in BC is for our management to look into how Alberta and saskatchewan regs are in place,,it's been 31 years for me putting
in for LEH for roosevelt on vancouver island..

Vancouver island has as many elk as all of the EK my thoughts are that the Vancouver island elk can handle more LEH draws in a calendar year..;-)

Albertas priority system works great for draws with moderate odds but there reaches a point where wait times can get pretty crazy well over 10years even. On high odds draws the random system is more realistic. They only thing that could be helpful here is make it a once in a lifetime draw or an x number of years before you can apply again

Hunting under both systems I see where priority system is great for low to moderate draw odds but random like B.C. is better for high odds draws like sheep/Roosevelt elk

[hunter1947]

Wayne our elk on the island are taking a shit kicking for a certain user group, so all is not Rosey here!!

Fill us on why there taking a shit kicking 15 years ago I was told by Kim brunt Nanaimo elk division office that there where 7 thousand elk strong on Vancouver island ???

[Bugle M In]

What the hell are you talking about? This is completely false.

Are you a CO?

Because I had a good relation with one and upon his retirement a couple years back, we spoke about issues and that was one point that stuck
with me.
They don't get to do the field work like they would like.
Financially to a point where they had to leave trucks at the office.
Might be different in your neck of the woods, but this was straight one on ones with the CO's.

As far as LBM, I doubt he has much one on one due to falling outs some years back.
His life is vicariously lived thru others these days.

[Piperdown]

Like my post said Wayne a certain user group seems to think they own them, a local band here went out and shot 28 elk, to thin the herd so to speak so there wouldn't be more leh opportunities, yes some areas are doing ok other areas are not open for harvest yet as it seems they are being constantly thinned out. Lots can happen in 15 years look in your back yard for example.

[Bugle M In]

Like I have said WTF are the management thinking only having region 4 no baiting salt or other ??? if they are going to make it a law no baiting with
salt or other bait then make the enforcement it the entire provence ..

Getting back onto the OP....
This^^^^^^^
How can anybody say we are going to remove "Baiting", and say "due to CWD", and then only apply it to R4?

And again, does that mean no industry can use salt blocks, leave feed out during the winter etc etc.
Or, is this again that Hunting/Hunters and their Bait Piles are going to be the "big cause" to spread CWD??
Really!!!?????
And what CWD will only enter at an R4 location?
Logical yes, but could very well come in from R8 etc

What is Alberta going to do to help curb CWD spread.
All ranchers and farmer have to stop planting and growing due to deer congregating in the winter and spreading CWD???
THINK ABOUT THIS>>>>>>>>>>>>>
ALBERTA HAS A BAIT BAN for deer, AND YET, they STILL HAVE CWD and its spreading!!!!
Ever been to Alberta in the Winter?
Fields with 40 WT in one corner and 80 yards away, same field, 20 MD all day, everyday.

So, somehow our little ban is going to make a difference in BC while CWD spreads up and down the border with Alberta eventually.
That's going to keep it at bay??
Think it is going to take a lot more then just hunters having to stop deer from congregating in BC

[rocksteady]

Hey Wayne, if you go to the proposed changes page, click on "contact us" and there is an email address you can also send it to.

FishandWildlife@gov.bc.ca

[guest]

Bang on bugle.
The proposals are laughable actually.
Another knee jerk reaction stopping nothing.

Kind of like the GBear closure really. Pointless.

[Bugle M In]

That particular point is moot.
They, by their own actions, actively campaigned for an end to bowhunting only seasons, fell back to banning crossbows, then to banning scopes.

THAT is NOT their call. Asking for increased numbers, finances and supporting legislation is.
Not this Bullshit.
And by their social engineering aspirations, they have dropped a significant margin in my mind's eyes.

Eff them and the horse they rode in on in this particular regard.

Nog

I know who made the call.
But, from what I am told, "the co was asked" what issues were of concern.
Who knows, maybe in the FOI, it will show that this is what they wanted?
OR, it might just show that "they had issues with Xbow" and that as a group, or some anyways, came up with that proposal???

But, would you like to be in their shoes everyday?
Yes, they can ask for funding or say they are "under manpowered" etc.
BUT, don't WE ALL already know that!??
WE HAVE ALL said for years (and I mean years!....like the 90's) that they don't have enough staff or funding!

So, if you were a CO, would you feel like if you just went to the boss and ask nicely, you are getting the funding...this time?
I guess at some point, you look at other ways to make your job easier.
Many people are like that in many industries.

Anyways, off topic from OP and I know its a stupid proposal, just like this one on Bait Ban.
When it comes to that, you and me are on the same page that some stupid really came about for this upcoming season.

[boxhitch]

Theres nothing wrong with taking baby steps, making small changes to the things that can be easily changed
No one is suggesting the bait ban would stop CWD but if it is a step in the right direction, used with others, why be negative about it?
One could argue the ban of camelids for hunting does nothing for sheep, in itself is a small step, but easy enough to implement and points the right direct
Lets get behind changes that make sense no matter how small, and find ways to build on those baby steps.

[Bugle M In]

Theres nothing wrong with taking baby steps, making small changes to the things that can be easily changed
No one is suggesting the bait ban would stop CWD but if it is a step in the right direction, used with others, why be negative about it?
One could argue the ban of camelids for hunting does nothing for sheep, in itself is a small step, but easy enough to implement and points the right direct
Lets get behind changes that make sense no matter how small, and find ways to build on those baby steps.

I see why many like yourself think it is at least a positive step....I get it.
It cant hurt or make it worse.
But, in the end "what is it going to help".

Deer aren't humans.
When AIDS came out, you could tell people to put it in a wrapper, or don't be stupid.
This cant really be applied to deer or by just saying okay, no more treats for you.
It's still going to spread

[IronNoggin]

... But, would you like to be in their shoes everyday? ...

Sorry, but I have walked in those moccasins.
And whatever their concerns were / are, that doesn't give them the right to attempt to play Social Manager at all.
It is WELL over the line IMHO, and at this point I am openly questioning both their integrity, and their suitability to the job at hand.
I am more than a little ticked off by this type of behavior.
And I will NOT rest until that proposal is rescinded, or I am facing them down in a court of law.
Period.

Nog

[rocksteady]

Theres nothing wrong with taking baby steps, making small changes to the things that can be easily changed
No one is suggesting the bait ban would stop CWD but if it is a step in the right direction, used with others, why be negative about it?
One could argue the ban of camelids for hunting does nothing for sheep, in itself is a small step, but easy enough to implement and points the right direct
Lets get behind changes that make sense no matter how small, and find ways to build on those baby steps.

However there was scientific proof that certain diseases could spread from llamas and elpacas to sheep..

There is no such evidence regarding ungulates and baiting

[Bugle M In]

Sorry, but I have walked in those moccasins.
And whatever their concerns were / are, that doesn't give them the right to attempt to play Social Manager at all.
It is WELL over the line IMHO, and at this point I am openly questioning both their integrity, and their suitability to the job at hand.
I am more than a little ticked off by this type of behavior.
And I will NOT rest until that proposal is rescinded, or I am facing them down in a court of law.
Period.


Nog

I understand.
I wasn't in the room when it went down.
Also, I don't know these individuals, how they are at the table or in person either.
So, I wont speculate on that.

My big concern, and what I worry wont be found in any FOI, is who said what and when and why.
I suspect that some talks went on, not so much about the "Actual scope ban portion" but how that tied in with possibly doing away with BOS
due to harvest level concerns in R6 (possibly in part due to XBows being so popular??), BUT, that this portion of the discussion/s as they
came together, where done behind closed doors, or thru private discussions that not all that have a right to be at the table were privy to.
I think the Bow folks biggest concern was actually that which I stated above.

So, who "whispered" to whom AND as stated in the past, who let it just happen because it would benefit them and didn't stand up and
say WTF?

I sure hope you can find those answers out, because to be that is even more concerning then the actual proposal.
I the proposal gets dropped, you might be happy.
But I wont be, because there is more to it then just crummy policy decisions.

Only have to go back to the whole GOABC Allocation Policy, and who was allowed in the room and who wasn't to see how that ended up.
Scars that will remain forever, imo.
Not something we need going forward in making Hunting/Wildlife Situation better in BC for all types of hunters and game.

Again, I am with you on your direction.
Sincerely...good luck.

[IronNoggin]

...
I the proposal gets dropped, you might be happy.
But I wont be, because there is more to it then just crummy policy decisions...

I will be somewhat satisfied.
Happy? Nope!
I actually abhor both the policies and procedures they way they are currently set up.
And I am FAR from alone in that.
I fully intend on jumping right into the matter as hard as I can.
Methinks the province, or at least those currently at the helm, will shortly have reason to detest me as much as I do them.

BTW: The GOABC is on our side in this matter.
Continuously tossing out perceived Sins Of The Past do not promote moving forward at this juncture.

Nog

[boxhitch]

However there was scientific proof that certain diseases could spread from llamas and elpacas to sheep..

There is no such evidence regarding ungulates and baitingThe possibility is slim, yet the proactive step was to ban them for hunting.
Nothing to do with hiking and packing, but the move that could be played was played. Baby step

CWD spreads through contact, baiting can increase contact, baiting for hunters may be out.
Nothing to do with hay fields or urban flower boxes or salt licks for cattle, but a move. Baby steps

[Bugle M In]

I will be somewhat satisfied.
Happy? Nope!
I actually abhor both the policies and procedures they way they are currently set up.
And I am FAR from alone in that.
I fully intend on jumping right into the matter as hard as I can.
Methinks the province, or at least those currently at the helm, will shortly have reason to detest me as much as I do them.

BTW: The GOABC is on our side in this matter.
Continuously tossing out perceived Sins Of The Past do not promote moving forward at this juncture.

Nog

I only meant with the GOABC, that if things aren't "Transparent" like back then, there can be a lot of resentment.
Go look at my first few posts on that scope thread and you will see that I was originally thinking that the Bow guys were up to something,
and wanted answers, until I saw some other stuff to see it wasn't them.
Very easy to go down the wrong path.
So, I was just trying to avoid another big divide like that Allocation thing produced.
Wasn't trying to open the wound, and besides, just like this issue at hand, cant hide from the truth.
Just like both the scope ban issue and this OP about bait ban.

[Bugle M In]

The possibility is slim, yet the proactive step was to ban them for hunting.
Nothing to do with hiking and packing, but the move that could be played was played. Baby step

CWD spreads through contact, baiting can increase contact, baiting for hunters may be out.
Nothing to do with hay fields or urban flower boxes or salt licks for cattle, but a move. Baby steps

Funny, not too long ago I was in the wrong by commenting on taking really long shots (that I don't support it for the most part) and was pointed out that I was creating a deeper wedge in the hunting community...creating further divide.

And now we have bait ban due to cwd (that we all agree, will not stop it from coming to BC, just slow it slightly, and yes, about as slow in stopping it thru this ban like a baby actually steps:-))
And what really ends up happening is those that oppose baiting are happy while another group is pissed off.

Then you have the Scope ban, which will do what exactly?????
Doubt it will actually rectify any of the real issues in the end (maybe I am wrong on that, but am certain about this....)
Some hunters hate XBow and think its cheating to use in Bow Season, while others will be yet again, pissed off.

And you know what, both the bait ban and the XBow ban, if implemented, will basically hurt I high% of our Bow hunting Community of
Hunters, as many (not all) do use this tactic or equipment in their hunting.

So great...more divide coming to a province near us...oh wait, our province.
And considering some of the real big issues, this is the best we can come up with?
And why, because the government/Ministry does not/ will not deal with the real truth/problems.
So, got to come up with something I suppose.
Love it.

Yes, CWD is an unfortunate thing coming to BC and most I don't think really now how bad it could or could not be down the road.
I know it's not a "don't worry about it issue"
Many should be concerned.

So, if we take this baby step as hunters.....how long do we give all the other players in BC to also take the same steps/precautions??
Who know, if CWD gets out of hand, they will probably re-implement the baiting and then ask us to cull off entire herds I suppose.
Either way...bad news and not really a solution...imo.

[hunter1947]

Say a deer or elk has CWD they like a salt block in a farmers field what happens next ??? My thoughts are that the next animal that licks this salt have a good chance of getting CWD..

[hunter1947]

Hey Wayne, if you go to the proposed changes page, click on "contact us" and there is an email address you can also send it to.

FishandWildlife@gov.bc.ca


Thanks Mike will keep this in mind..

[hunter1947]

Getting back onto the OP....
This^^^^^^^
How can anybody say we are going to remove "Baiting", and say "due to CWD", and then only apply it to R4?

And again, does that mean no industry can use salt blocks, leave feed out during the winter etc etc.
Or, is this again that Hunting/Hunters and their Bait Piles are going to be the "big cause" to spread CWD??
Really!!!?????
And what CWD will only enter at an R4 location?
Logical yes, but could very well come in from R8 etc

What is Alberta going to do to help curb CWD spread.
All ranchers and farmer have to stop planting and growing due to deer congregating in the winter and spreading CWD???
THINK ABOUT THIS>>>>>>>>>>>>>
ALBERTA HAS A BAIT BAN for deer, AND YET, they STILL HAVE CWD and its spreading!!!!
Ever been to Alberta in the Winter?
Fields with 40 WT in one corner and 80 yards away, same field, 20 MD all day, everyday.

So, somehow our little ban is going to make a difference in BC while CWD spreads up and down the border with Alberta eventually.
That's going to keep it at bay??
Think it is going to take a lot more then just hunters having to stop deer from congregating in BC

Good Post wording BME and so true..

[hunter1947]

Thank you for taking the time to write.

Due to the high volume of incoming messages, this is an automated response to let you know that the Fish and Aquatic Habitat Branch and the Wildlife and Habitat Branch in the
Ministry of Forests, Lands, Natural Resource Operations and Rural Development has received your email.

For more information and to access the
2018 - 2020 Hunting and Trapping Regulations Synopsis or the
2017 - 2019 Freshwater Fishing Regulations Synopsis online, please visithttp://www.env.gov.bc.ca./fw/

Thanks Rocksteady for putting me on the right track

[Walking Buffalo]

I see why many like yourself think it is at least a positive step....I get it.
It cant hurt or make it worse.
But, in the end "what is it going to help".

Deer aren't humans.
When AIDS came out, you could tell people to put it in a wrapper, or don't be stupid.
This cant really be applied to deer or by just saying okay, no more treats for you.
It's still going to spread

This reminds me of how Saskatchewan handles CWD.
Gov went against the advice of their Biologists and caved under heavy lobbying by outfitters (95% for American clients) and the Game farm canned "hunting" organizations.
Baiting continued, herd density reductions were stopped, and CWD spread like a prairie wildfire. With only very limited testing (thanks Sask Gov) CWD rates in areas are over 50%.

Here in Alberta, without baiting, and during the years of herd density suppression, CWD was not spreading into Alberta, but was contained to the near the Sask border, infection rates were 1-2%.
Our containment measures WERE working!

Then lobbying pushed to end the herd density suppression, the greatest effort to do so was from the Outfitting community.
Once herds were allowed to grow, so did the rate of infection and spread of the disease.


But go ahead, keep singing, Lalalalalallaaaaa…..


I sense a different issue at hand here. Many seem to be apposed to ANY change.
I get the frustration from recent changes, the feeling of being hit and run on....
But don't let that get in the way of changes that really do need to happen for the sake of Wildlife.
This is NOT an Hunter issue, this is a Wildlife Health concern.





However there was scientific proof that certain diseases could spread from llamas and elpacas to sheep..

There is no such evidence regarding ungulates and baiting

There are plenty of studies showing evidence of increased disease transmission between ungulates due to baiting.

I agree, there is a lack of studies directly researching CWD transmission and baiting.
But they are not really necessary, Other research applies.

[Walking Buffalo]

For those that are interested in how other jurisdictions are discussing the next generation of CWD management policy,
Fully read the Wyoming Draft CWD management plan and discussions.

This goes far beyond what is being pubically discussed in BC.
An insight to a possible future.



(https://wgfd.wyo.gov/WGFD/media/content/PDF/Get%20Involved/CWD/WGFD_DRAFTCWDManagementPlan_113019.pdf)https://wgfd.wyo.gov/WGFD/media/content/PDF/Get%20Involved/CWD/WGFD_DRAFTCWDManagementPlan_113019.pdf

[Bugle M In]

Walking Buff,

I don't have an agenda.
Actually, I have never used baiting as a hunting technique and actually switch the hunting channel when I watch bbear hunts using it etc.
Not my thing, same goes for Xbows and ATVs, don't use or own either.
Have a Cam, never hung on a tree for a second since I have owned it.

This is the New Era of the BAN my friend!
We have a GBear BAN, but is that sound management???...nope.
We have ever increasing ATV BAN, but what good is it if poachers and FN have access on all those extra roads.
(real solution is tear them up and restrict atv for all to roads only)
We have a SCOPE BAN proposed (but will fail, but the next round will be a full on XBOW BAN like Alberta I predict).
Then there are the rumor's of the TROPHY HUNT BAN (bye bye GO's in the EK if that happens).

Me, just I guy who has always hunted with a rifle on foot or mtn bike, nothing less. nothing more!
No affiliation with any Org.
Mostly because every Org I have seen has in part, their own itinerary, not a general goal.

And WORST OF ALL, nothing has ever worked so far because it has never addressed the real factor to game # declines in BC.
But keep trying to come up with new hunting proposals that will, it's worked so well so far!

[Bugle M In]

Truth is (In a simplistic form), our hunting history goes little like this:

We had an Era of Anything Goes:

As long as it had 4 legs, you were good to go (2 legged was a no no)
But eventually people did smarten up and realized this wouldn't work with an increasing population.

The Era of Reduction:
Shorter Seasons, and limits on harvests came along (all good).
Trying to incorporate a NA Management Theory.

But, this wasn't enough, because some areas just get pounded by hunters because they are just in close proximity to large communities.
enter the:

Era of Limitations (that's right, the LEH).
Another okay proposal that should have made a world of difference, but has it?

But nope, something still isn't working??

Ah yes, the Era of Restriction!
Thins like "No vehicles allowed", as these area were only intended for those with horses and planes.
And yet, even those areas still have no game?

So, hey, here's the NEW PHILOSOPHY!

THE ERA OFF THE BAN!
GBEAR BANNED
BAIT BANNED
XBOW, (soon to be BANNED me thinks in BOS)
ATV BANNED (starting to be a popular trend!)
TROPHY HUNT (possibly BANNED if Heyman gets another term!, possible anyways).

What other BANS are in the works???
Who knows? but I am sure more are to come in the next 2 to 3 Regulation Proposal Cycles.

Funny, a long History of "taking steps to create game" thru the process of REGULATION.
End score....still declining game!

COMMON DENOMINATOR????????
All focus to create more game has been conducted by REGULATING HUNTERS, in one form or another.
Everyone else goes on their merry way.

NOW TELL ME WHERE WRONG?????
Give me evidence to support it however WB!
Because I have most of BC's wildlife issues summed up in the above words.

CWD can not and will not be eradicated or controlled by hunters.
BUT HEY, lets go for it.
After all, doesn't affect me in the least and my hunting.

I just feel bad for folks like H47, the OP, who likes to hunt that way at times.
And, lets not BS it, this Ban is for R4 NOW, BUT, will be a PROVINCE WIDE BAIT BAN soon.

But again, no other factions/industries will be held to the same standards.
Yup, going to work out perfectly.

[horshur]

Bud...its going to effect your hunting...the number 1 tool in the shed is game densities..low densities low transmission rates...that's the science. The truth.
Low densities means poor hunting..which is the general consensus of BCs current state. Guess you all can thank the loggers, wolves and first nations for that..lol

[Walking Buffalo]

Walking Buff,

I don't have an agenda.

Never claimed or thought you did.

As I suggested, there is a groundswell of opposition to Any change, regardless of what it is.
Not necessarily due to the reasons for the change, just that it is a change....
Your last couple of posts reflect this perspective.
I get it.... many have had enough.

[Bugle M In]

Bud...its going to effect your hunting...the number 1 tool in the shed is game densities..low densities low transmission rates...that's the science. The truth.
Low densities means poor hunting..which is the general consensus of BCs current state. Guess you all can thank the loggers, wolves and first nations for that..lol

Yup, that goes without say!
Also, Saskatchewan is way closer to ground 0 then Alberta when CWD showed up in the States.

So yes, we can keep our low game densities, benefits slowing CWD transmission.
So, we can all call it a day, and accept poor hunting for generations to come.
Yes, CWD was the last thing we needed with the said above issues already.

Going to be interesting to see what kind of shovel someone comes up with to digs out of this hole!???
Maybe it is just easier to keep the bullies like many of us at bay, and just close off hunting altogether.
Way easier.

[Bugle M In]

Never claimed or thought you did.

As I suggested, there is a groundswell of opposition to Any change, regardless of what it is.
Not necessarily due to the reasons for the change, just that it is a change....
Your last couple of posts reflect this perspective.
I get it.... many have had enough.

I just don't want everyone to look at my rants as trying to be a bully or stop people from focusing on some serious issues, and we have a
ton of them.
The "many have had enough" is definitely the category I am in.
I feel like we are going at it all alone and have been for years.
And even if we make a few gains, the FN are going to bury us anyways unless we come to some kind of truce going forward.

I just said this to another member in a pm:

I am told we have a lot of brilliant minds in BC, trying to make things better.
But you can have a room full of brilliant people and just end up with stupid results anyways.
Best Example:
Look at NASA, tons of brilliant minds there!
Yet, they had space capsules burn, shuttles blow up, and the list goes on.

But, you know what made them successful???
They had "Government Support" to continue on and make it happen, to achieve success.

It Means:

A Brilliant Mind is USELESS without the TOOLS IN HAND.'
One without the other, is useless.
That is our current state of affairs'.
That's my final summation!

[Bugle M In]

Heres a question to those that support the Bait Ban in an effort to reduce CWD transmission.
I am informed that CWD actually infects MD BUCKS the most, followed by MD Doe, then WT (cant remember the order there?).
So, if that is the case, ALONG with the fact that a reduction in cwd can also be obtained by "thinning herds" etc.

Does that mean we will see a lifting of the 4pt MD restriction back down to any buck wherever and whenever a 4 pt restriction is
now in place???
You know, it will thin the herds out more by doing that...wouldn't it???
Also a fight against cwd tactic, don't you think?

Yes, I didn't think that will happen, but just wanted to point that out.

[IronNoggin]

The government website has been flooded with so many negative responses to their proposal listings, it has been taken down for "maintenance" purposes. :roll:



Stay Tuned. Will let you know when it's back up...


Cheers - Nog

[Bugle M In]

The government website has been flooded with so many negative responses to their proposal listings, it has been taken down for "maintenance" purposes. :roll:



Stay Tuned. Will let you know when it's back up...

Cheers - Nog

:grin:.……………………………………..
That or they found a whole whack of more proposals to add to it???????:roll:

[Piperdown]

BMI, i sure hope you are on blood pressure meds as you are going to have a gasser if you don't stop to breath every once in awhile!!

[Bugle M In]

BMI, i sure hope you are on blood pressure meds as you are going to have a gasser if you don't stop to breath every once in awhile!!

Actually, it's New Years Eve, and I plan to get smashed, especially after this past weeks fiasco's.
It's going to be 2020, but I don't consider as monumental as the year 2000.
Which back then, found me running in my BDay suit for 8 blocks some where in frickin Surrey (exact location is a blur!?).
Yup, the first block was awkward but by the 8th block, have to admit felt pretty "Liberating"!
Only mistake was I showed up to the house party in cowboy boots.
A no go for running, so bare foot I went.
Other 5 guys had runners on.
I dealt with the pain as there is safety in #'s.
Getting left behind seemed independently insecure!

Just have a hang over for 2 days if all goes as planned.
Not worried about Uber, only 2 blocks to walk.
I am assuming this time I will be clothed.:mrgreen:

[Rackmastr]

This reminds me of how Saskatchewan handles CWD.
Gov went against the advice of their Biologists and caved under heavy lobbying by outfitters (95% for American clients) and the Game farm canned "hunting" organizations.
Baiting continued, herd density reductions were stopped, and CWD spread like a prairie wildfire. With only very limited testing (thanks Sask Gov) CWD rates in areas are over 50%.

Here in Alberta, without baiting, and during the years of herd density suppression, CWD was not spreading into Alberta, but was contained to the near the Sask border, infection rates were 1-2%.
Our containment measures WERE working!

Then lobbying pushed to end the herd density suppression, the greatest effort to do so was from the Outfitting community.
Once herds were allowed to grow, so did the rate of infection and spread of the disease.


But go ahead, keep singing, Lalalalalallaaaaa…..


I sense a different issue at hand here. Many seem to be apposed to ANY change.
I get the frustration from recent changes, the feeling of being hit and run on....
But don't let that get in the way of changes that really do need to happen for the sake of Wildlife.
This is NOT an Hunter issue, this is a Wildlife Health concern.

There are plenty of studies showing evidence of increased disease transmission between ungulates due to baiting.

I agree, there is a lack of studies directly researching CWD transmission and baiting.
But they are not really necessary, Other research applies.

Great post WB. Its crazy to see how CWD rates have sky-rocketed in a lot of areas in Alberta. Makes it a real ethical struggle on what to do when trying to plan a hunt over there.

I'm personally alright with the ban on baiting/feeding and am happy that whitetail doe numbers have been reduced in the Kootenays. Somehow if I said that in a public area in the Kootenays I feel I'd be strung up for not 'falling in line' with the common thinking.

[Bugle M In]

^^^^^WB's post is a good one.
I just don't think taking baby steps is going to be useful.
You have a wildfire on the horizon, that has burnt a lot of ground already.
You don't go dig a little ditch and hope it helps.

You jump in both feet, cut a mile perimeter, and then you got a chance.
If limiting infection due to no cure is the game plan, then EVERYONE has to be on board.
Not just expecting hunters to make a difference.
Then the Cattle Assoc. and whoever else one can think of, has to play with the same rules.
Then, I would support it.
But, isn't that always the issue, the hunting community gets restricted while other causing the majority of the damage carry on.

Cattle guys hate elk on their hay, etc etc, and we know how much they have affected herds of many species.
Don't expect them to play ball without a huge fight.
And why, because cwd doesn't affect cattle, so why care.
And who is going to tell them to fall into line???
No one.

Not trying to poke at some of the members here on HBC that are cattle folk, I like some of them.
But it's hard to put it nicely sometimes.

[hunter1947]

Walking Buff,

I don't have an agenda.
Actually, I have never used baiting as a hunting technique and actually switch the hunting channel when I watch bbear hunts using it etc.
Not my thing, same goes for Xbows and ATVs, don't use or own either.
Have a Cam, never hung on a tree for a second since I have owned it.

This is the New Era of the BAN my friend!
We have a GBear BAN, but is that sound management???...nope.
We have ever increasing ATV BAN, but what good is it if poachers and FN have access on all those extra roads.
(real solution is tear them up and restrict atv for all to roads only)
We have a SCOPE BAN proposed (but will fail, but the next round will be a full on XBOW BAN like Alberta I predict).
Then there are the rumor's of the TROPHY HUNT BAN (bye bye GO's in the EK if that happens).

Me, just I guy who has always hunted with a rifle on foot or mtn bike, nothing less. nothing more!
No affiliation with any Org.
Mostly because every Org I have seen has in part, their own itinerary, not a general goal.

And WORST OF ALL, nothing has ever worked so far because it has never addressed the real factor to game # declines in BC.
But keep trying to come up with new hunting proposals that will, it's worked so well so far!

Explain this in full ???Then there are the rumor's of the TROPHY HUNT BAN (bye bye GO's in the EK if that happens).

[Bugle M In]

Explain this in full ???Then there are the rumor's of the TROPHY HUNT BAN (bye bye GO's in the EK if that happens).

If the government, like the NDP can ban the Gbear hunt, which they did then there is always a chance down the road that sheep/goat
could be as well...one day.
There is no science that said we needed to ban gbear for conservation reasons.
It was a ban based on enough anti hunters no longer wanting this hunt in the province and arguments that it wasn't for food purposes.
Just a "trophy hunt"

And I had George Heyman at my door, twice!
And in a nutshell, that was why during the upcoming election they had stated in their platform they would close GBear.
Now, if they can close GBear, they can also look at a few other species.
The argument of climbing a steep mountain just to bring a goat or sheep down for meat, I not reasonable in their eyes, thus another
trophy hunt.

Heyman was like "I have friends who hunt, I support the meat hunt" type statements to me directly.
Meat Hunt being the important words in his statement.
We also ended up having to bring ribs and neck out now too, the full animal.
Not many sheep or goat hunters were doing that.

See where this was going in his words now?!

As for good bye EK GO's.
They aint making a whole lot of money with their elk and moose hunts these days.
The GO around me said if it wasn't for his Goat hunt, he would be in financial trouble.
Actually, he said it was so bad that he needed to get a real job for most of the year now.
(his words, not mine)
I am sure making money in the GO industry is challenging right now in the EK.
You know as well as I do, it aint great in there.

Their sheep and goat hunts from his words were the most viable to staying in business.
So, if Heyman gets another run of 4 years, and the Anti start looking at another animal to take off the hunting list, who knows what
the ndp will do??
We already see a backlash in the past to Cougar Hunting.
Your guess is as good as mine on what will be the next species on the cutting room floor.
But I am pretty certain we haven't seen the end of it with the NDP in power.

Anything else I missed???

[hunter1947]

If the government, like the NDP can ban the Gbear hunt, which they did then there is always a chance down the road that sheep/goat
could be as well...one day.
There is no science that said we needed to ban gbear for conservation reasons.
It was a ban based on enough anti hunters no longer wanting this hunt in the province and arguments that it wasn't for food purposes.
Just a "trophy hunt"

And I had George Heyman at my door, twice!
And in a nutshell, that was why during the upcoming election they had stated in their platform they would close GBear.
Now, if they can close GBear, they can also look at a few other species.
The argument of climbing a steep mountain just to bring a goat or sheep down for meat, I not reasonable in their eyes, thus another
trophy hunt.

Heyman was like "I have friends who hunt, I support the meat hunt" type statements to me directly.
Meat Hunt being the important words in his statement.
We also ended up having to bring ribs and neck out now too, the full animal.
Not many sheep or goat hunters were doing that.

See where this was going in his words now?!

As for good bye EK GO's.
They aint making a whole lot of money with their elk and moose hunts these days.
The GO around me said if it wasn't for his Goat hunt, he would be in financial trouble.
Actually, he said it was so bad that he needed to get a real job for most of the year now.
(his words, not mine)
I am sure making money in the GO industry is challenging right now in the EK.
You know as well as I do, it aint great in there.

Their sheep and goat hunts from his words were the most viable to staying in business.
So, if Heyman gets another run of 4 years, and the Anti start looking at another animal to take off the hunting list, who knows what
the ndp will do??
We already see a backlash in the past to Cougar Hunting.
Your guess is as good as mine on what will be the next species on the cutting room floor.
But I am pretty certain we haven't seen the end of it with the NDP in power.

Anything else I missed??? Thanks for explaining all to the HBC members I see your point..

[Bugle M In]

Thanks for explaining all to the HBC members I see your point..

Your welcome H.

Like I say, it is just conversations I had with one GO.
But I know around him there are atleast 3 other GO's and I suspect their elk and moose issue is no different and most likely also rely on sheep/goat.
I believe him to be straight up as I don't think anyone wants to say they are in rough shape, business wise.
I also know he received 5 or 6 more goat permits because not enough residents were applying for those tags for years.
Odds were always like 0.5:1.
If you applied you got it.
I think now it is 1:1?
Would have to look at this years LEH to see past years odds to confirm.

The one big mistake he made, and doesn't bold well for the "Trophy" aspect of hunting was:
For one, he hadn't filled his GBear tag that was allocated him before the ban came into effect.
Nor was he acquiring clients for BBear hunts.
His reason, his words, was waiting for the bears to "grow bigger".
That was said to me the last season before GBear ban went into effect.

I also told him, if you aint going to take some BBear, I was going to get a tag.
And I have.
And this past season I witnessed more BBear then ever...10X as many (maybe just a lucky year?)

But, words like letting them grow bigger, or having that philosophy isn't going to help hunting in the future in the Anti's eyes, imo.

[Piperdown]

Hey BMI sorry to hear your GO friend is having to get a job, maybe line him up with BV, he seems to be doing real well, well enough to go on trophy hunts to Africa and support their country :roll:

[Bugle M In]

^^^^^I don't feel all that sorry for him to be honest, but I like to listen to the issues others face.
The truth is, the elk #'s in there are crap.
So, I can see the struggle.
I don't tend to get mixed up in someone elses business, after all, it really is his business (literally)
Only relating how it is for him.
Granted, if it was me, I sure wouldn't run my business model waiting for GBear to get to trophy status.
Hunts up there to me are just as much about Internationals being able to hunt in some incredible scenic territory that they would never
find elsewhere.

Want my honest opinion ( I generally keep that to myself as I want to be pro hunting).
I don't think the terrain is great to have a GO in some of these watersheds.
Very steep terrain.
IF they were only allowed sheep and goat and Gbear, great as the going is tough and their clients have to work their asses off to hunt them.
But, for moose and elk, the steep terrain can make it somewhat easier to sit and wait for them to just walk by.
Considering our current situation with poor management (government wise) a really good GO could do some damage to those species in
there.

But that's just how I feel, but would never base my personal opinion on what is really needed in the province.
Only based on the current situation and how bad things are managed.
In a way, no different then when we see these proposal from smart people.
They have no choice because what is really needed is not an option for them to go after.

Take whatever issue, whatever personal belief you have as to issues in BC, and it all funnels back to one source.
Lack of government support and money.

What is needed is a representative from each group in BC to just tackle that issue "alone".
Form a committee and keep pounding at Heymans door.
Not just his office door, but his own personal residence.
That guy pisses me off like no one else in the province.

[bearvalley]

Hey BMI sorry to hear your GO friend is having to get a job, maybe line him up with BV, he seems to be doing real well, well enough to go on trophy hunts to Africa and support their country :roll:
Never spent one minute of my life on African dirt Piper.
You seem to worry a lot about my business for a clown I’ve never met.
Maybe give me a call next time you’re blowing thru town....we can compare notes.

[hunter1947]

Many times I hear lack of funding for the management if we all new that every dollar we as hunters put into funds for managing our wildlife we would give more dollars to manage
our wildlife including culling predator maybe that's what we need to do is have the fundings go to a committee that holds the funds and the money is put into culling wolves ,,etc...

If I new that my dollars was going right up front to cull predators ,,etc and not into the government hands I would be the first to give hundreds of dollars for this funding..

[hunter1947]

Actually, it's New Years Eve, and I plan to get smashed, especially after this past weeks fiasco's.
It's going to be 2020, but I don't consider as monumental as the year 2000.
Which back then, found me running in my BDay suit for 8 blocks some where in frickin Surrey (exact location is a blur!?).
Yup, the first block was awkward but by the 8th block, have to admit felt pretty "Liberating"!
Only mistake was I showed up to the house party in cowboy boots.
A no go for running, so bare foot I went.
Other 5 guys had runners on.
I dealt with the pain as there is safety in #'s.
Getting left behind seemed independently insecure!

Just have a hang over for 2 days if all goes as planned.
Not worried about Uber, only 2 blocks to walk.
I am assuming this time I will be clothed.:mrgreen:

BMI ,,,,To funny ,,LOL me I was in bed at 8pm no drinking at all I got up at 3am feeling good ,,O ya the year has changed to 2020 ,,LOL just another day for me ,,LOL

[Piperdown]

Never spent one minute of my life on African dirt Piper.
You seem to worry a lot about my business for a clown I’ve never met.
Maybe give me a call next time you’re blowing thru town....we can compare notes.

Wouldn't waste my time, oh i will be pro guide when you are restricted to 10%, but that is a another topic which was grilled to death when we had the resident hunter protests, seems you are the clown when it comes to ranching.

[bearvalley]

Wouldn't waste my time, oh i will be pro guide when you are restricted to 10%, but that is a another topic which was grilled to death when we had the resident hunter protests, seems you are the clown when it comes to ranching.
Is that a fact.....seems I’m still in business and your buddy isn’t.
Should I be asking Dale what his problem is?
You seem pretty worried about what and who I am....kind of creepy Piperdown.....a hidden stalker.
LMAO!

[GreyDog]

Many times I hear lack of funding for the management if we all new that every dollar we as hunters put into funds for managing our wildlife we would give more dollars to manage
our wildlife including culling predator maybe that's what we need to do is have the fundings go to a committee that holds the funds and the money is put into culling wolves ,,etc...

If I new that my dollars was going right up front to cull predators ,,etc and not into the government hands I would be the first to give hundreds of dollars for this funding..
Here they would have to work pretty hard to find a predator to cull. It wasn't wolves that knocked our deer and elk down. GD

[Bugle M In]

Can I just ask where "here " is appr.???? (just trying to understand where you are talking about, R4?, south or north end?)

Where I go, wolves most certainly had an impact.
However, I think a lot of issues came from the over extensive logging.

This is why I feel sorry for folks at the table making proposals (some of them, not all of them).

If you are stuck with dick all government support, little funding year after year, and are expected to regulate the wildlife pops thru Regs,
especially at a time where everyone knows the #'s have dropped for all species, what options are left.
Some species you either now, due to being so bad, put them on LEH (which would be jaw dropping to think of that when it comes to elk
in the EK, when you consider how many there once was, and the government has no plans to bring them back to former #'s but rather
only half at best).
And after that it gets real bad...closure if need be.

These guys at the table are in a bad spot at times.
Cant imagine how the Bios at the table are frustrated, if they are good ones and also are a hunter.

Government wont cull.

And worse, I don't think anybody really knows what issues can come from such extreme logging.
We have never seen logging like this in the past then this past 20 years.
What problems has it caused?

AND THE WORST PART:
You cant fix whats already been cut!
Now you have to wait 30 years or so if it is found it caused severe problems for wildlife.

Yes, I get mad at the guys at the table, and then I realize what they are up against, it isn't easy.
I just wish they would all just sign a big petition, send it to the folks they hand their proposal into, and say, we have no more reg changes, tell the government to get on board!
Something to that effect.

The managing to "0" is a really good saying, and I feel that is where we are still heading.

[Pauly]

Can I just ask where "here " is appr.???? (just trying to understand where you are talking about, R4?, south or north end?)

Where I go, wolves most certainly had an impact.
However, I think a lot of issues came from the over extensive logging.

This is why I feel sorry for folks at the table making proposals (some of them, not all of them).

If you are stuck with dick all government support, little funding year after year, and are expected to regulate the wildlife pops thru Regs,
especially at a time where everyone knows the #'s have dropped for all species, what options are left.
Some species you either now, due to being so bad, put them on LEH (which would be jaw dropping to think of that when it comes to elk
in the EK, when you consider how many there once was, and the government has no plans to bring them back to former #'s but rather
only half at best).
And after that it gets real bad...closure if need be.

These guys at the table are in a bad spot at times.
Cant imagine how the Bios at the table are frustrated, if they are good ones and also are a hunter.

Government wont cull.

And worse, I don't think anybody really knows what issues can come from such extreme logging.
We have never seen logging like this in the past then this past 20 years.
What problems has it caused?

AND THE WORST PART:
You cant fix whats already been cut!
Now you have to wait 30 years or so if it is found it caused severe problems for wildlife.

Yes, I get mad at the guys at the table, and then I realize what they are up against, it isn't easy.
I just wish they would all just sign a big petition, send it to the folks they hand their proposal into, and say, we have no more reg changes, tell the government to get on board!
Something to that effect.

The managing to "0" is a really good saying, and I feel that is where we are still heading.
I’m quite glad logging and logging industry has taken a hit. It’s not like we didn’t see it coming. The question is did anyone learn any thing from it? Probably not because it involves money and that trumps all. Just look at our salmon returns.. proves my point. Also we need to get rid of all the filthy cattle on the landscape that’s another industry that needs to die to some degree. In the end all our fish and wildlife problems are in fact a people problem we are a virus that destroys everything for what? A gold ring copper pipes and gas. And look where we are now .. killing our selves is where. No longer sustainable. I also recognize I’m apart of the problem as well as a consumer but at least if I was told all hunting would be severely restricted to help re build I’d be all in. I’ll just hunt rabbits it’s still hunting. Change is coming unfortunately we’re going to be forced into it by our own mismanagement.

[GreyDog]

Can I just ask where "here " is appr.???? (just trying to understand where you are talking about, R4?, south or north end?)

Where I go, wolves most certainly had an impact.
However, I think a lot of issues came from the over extensive logging.

This is why I feel sorry for folks at the table making proposals (some of them, not all of them).

If you are stuck with dick all government support, little funding year after year, and are expected to regulate the wildlife pops thru Regs,
especially at a time where everyone knows the #'s have dropped for all species, what options are left.
Some species you either now, due to being so bad, put them on LEH (which would be jaw dropping to think of that when it comes to elk
in the EK, when you consider how many there once was, and the government has no plans to bring them back to former #'s but rather
only half at best).
And after that it gets real bad...closure if need be.

These guys at the table are in a bad spot at times.
Cant imagine how the Bios at the table are frustrated, if they are good ones and also are a hunter.

Government wont cull.

And worse, I don't think anybody really knows what issues can come from such extreme logging.
We have never seen logging like this in the past then this past 20 years.
What problems has it caused?

AND THE WORST PART:
You cant fix whats already been cut!
Now you have to wait 30 years or so if it is found it caused severe problems for wildlife.

Yes, I get mad at the guys at the table, and then I realize what they are up against, it isn't easy.
I just wish they would all just sign a big petition, send it to the folks they hand their proposal into, and say, we have no more reg changes, tell the government to get on board!
Something to that effect.

The managing to "0" is a really good saying, and I feel that is where we are still heading.
South (1,2,3)
The big problem with the logging, as it is done today, is that it benefits much fewer people than it did fifty years ago. The industry was deliberately turned over to the big corporations and the resource is managed, by them, for their benefit.

[gunpower]

I don't care whether or not it passes on illness; I never have liked the concept of baiting animals. Now, there are mineral licks and it has long been common practice, especially by outfitters, to "enhance" these licks. It has also become common practice to set out salt blocks and use game cameras to see if they want to waste the energy climbing up to look for a ram or bull. I think there are some grey areas but I am all for stopping the deliberate baiting of ungulates. I am also just fine with the concept of baiting predators. I think trail cams should be out of the woods one week prior to opening day. GD In 50 years of hunting, I have never use any bait or baiting methods for ungulates , and never will. It , in my eyes is unethical , just about as bad as pit lamping !!

[Jagermeister]

I call bs... no scientific evidence that salt blocks can contribute to the alleged spread of cwd...

Another knee jerk reaction..
I would not be so quick to say that. It would not surprise if it is revealed that CWD can be transmitted through saliva.

I would be more concerned about the proposal to eliminate the cow elk LEH. This LEH amounts to the possible harvest of 32 cow elk out of an estimated population of 6970 elk according to a 2018 East Kootenay Trench survey. These 32 antlerless elk account for less than 0.5% of the entire herd population. Do you think that dropping this hunt will make a significant impact on the recovery of the dwindling elk populations? I don't think so. It will take drastic measures to curtail the decline and those drastic measures will need to be: 1. Re-instating the grizzly hunt; 2. serious attempt to cull wolves and 3. drastic reduction in the length of the hunting season. I am not in favor of the latter because once the herd recovers, the season will stay shortened so the numbers 1 and 2 are the only viable options.
The East Kootenay Trench probably has the highest grizzly bear population density on the North American continent.

[sthdslayer]

BOONE AND CROCKETT CLUB POSITION STATEMENTBAITINGEffective Date: August 1, 2019
Situational Overview
Baiting is a broad term that generally refers to the use of natural or unnatural food attractants placed in a specific location by hunters to attract and draw in a targeted game species for harvest. Though considered a longstanding and traditional hunting method in many states and provinces, baiting has become increasingly misunderstood and controversial.Â
Hunting (regardless of the method used) is the primary mechanism by which state, provincial, and tribal wildlife agencies manage the populations of game species. Game species are hunted across a broad spectrum of terrain and conditions, including open areas where game is more easily located, deep forests where animals are hard to find, lands densely populated by people, and remote, uninhabited areas where game roams over vast distances. These conditions all require different hunting methods and skills in order for sportsmen to be successful. To determine what methods should be legal in their jurisdiction, wildlife agencies consider a variety of factors, including terrain, conditions, hunting traditions, hunting opportunity and species behavior, balanced against science-based objectives for game population management.
Game management objectives primarily focus on maintaining healthy, sustainable, and socially acceptable populations. In situations where hunter harvest may be low and wildlife populations are higher than what the land can sustain, managers may need to reduce animal numbers, and baiting is one option they may allow hunters to employ. Reductions are also sometimes necessary to mitigate the spread of disease within a wildlife population, or when game animals damage property, create safety concerns for people, or negatively impact other wildlife.

One of the objections to baiting is that it can habituate animals to an unnatural food source, creating more conflicts with people. Feeding wildlife in general can also concentrate normally free-ranging animals, leading to the spread of disease (such as CWD in whitetail deer). Claims that game laws are somehow arbitrary arise when one state allows baiting for a particular species while a neighboring state prohibits this hunting method for the same species.  Â
The most frequent criticism is that baiting violates the principles of Fair Chase®, the code of hunting conduct popularized by the Boone and Crockett Club over a century ago. This argument has led many people to conclude that baiting should be illegal regardless of the circumstances. The Club believes baiting, especially as it relates to wildlife management and Fair Chase, should be better understood before it can be properly judged.
Position
The Boone and Crockett Club acknowledges that baiting is a proven method to manage the population density of certain species in certain areas and supports the authority of wildlife agencies to determine if baiting is allowed in their jurisdictions. The many decades of decision-making by state, provincial, and wildlife authorities, based on regional needs and local traditions, have led to the most successful system of wildlife management in the world.
Baiting can increase hunter success by helping them to locate game, especially nocturnal species and game that inhabits a continuous, dense understory that make successful harvest numbers difficult to achieve. Baiting also allows a hunter to be more selective as it permits them to conduct a closer inspection of an animal to determine its age and sex prior harvest. This is particularly important where it is discouraged or illegal to take young animals or females with young of a species (such as black and grizzly bear) where the sex and age is not as easily discernable as with other species.
Once the decision has been made that baiting is legal, whether to use bait or not is a matter of personal choice. The Club defines Fair Chase as “the ethical, sportsmanlike, and lawful pursuit and taking of any free-ranging wild, big game animal in a manner that does not give the hunter an improper or unfair advantage over the game animals.” This definition is based on the meaning of “fair” that relates to legitimate, genuine, or appropriate given the circumstances. Where an increased harvest of a particular species needs to occur, or where positive identification of size or sex is a legal requirement, baiting is “appropriate given the circumstances” and does not violate Fair Chase principles.

Since Fair Chase is more a matter of the “spirit of the hunt” than a set of written rules, views on baiting will vary from one person to the next. Fair Chase can also be influenced by local customs and traditions. How a person was taught to hunt can affect their sense of what is an ethical hunting method. For some, baiting meets these requirements and presents a unique set of challenges. Others may find it does not align with their personal value system and will not provide the experience they seek. If a person decides baiting is not for them, the Club believes they should still respect another’s right to legally hunt that way.

Outside of what hunting laws provide concerning the various species of game being hunted and managed, there is no simple answer to the question about baiting being right or wrong. It is the Club’s policy that big game trophies taken with the aid of bait are eligible for entry and listing in the Boone and Crockett Club’s Records of North American Big Game program so long as the practice is legal in the state or province where the trophy was taken, and other entry requirements are met.

The Club has also found that hunting over or near agricultural fields does not constitute baiting. Crops that provide food for people, livestock, or to produce other goods, tend to have an ancillary effect of providing food and cover for wildlife. Hunters may be able to find game more easily in those locations, but this is not considered to be a violation of Fair Chase. If a person plants crops specifically to attract a certain game species (often referred to as food plots) for hunting purposes, the Club maintains it is up to each wildlife agency to determine if such actions are legal, or considered baiting. Â


The Boone and Crockett Club publishes position statements to inform and educate people about conservation and hunting issues. Thus, there is no charge for personal and non-commercial use of its position statements, but reprinting or re-use of any portions of a position statement shall credit the Boone and Crockett Club as the source. Any such use shall remain subject to all rights of the Boone and Crockett Club

[russm86]

I call bs... no scientific evidence that salt blocks can contribute to the alleged spread of cwd...

Another knee jerk reaction..

What else do you expect?

What are they going to blame/ban when they put this through and CWD still makes it's way through the province anyways?

[hunter1947]

What else do you expect?

What are they going to blame/ban when they put this through and CWD still makes it's way through the province anyways?


You got this correct my guess is next they will implement every animal that a hunter takes mandatory inspection..

[hunter1947]

I would not be so quick to say that. It would not surprise if it is revealed that CWD can be transmitted through saliva.

I would be more concerned about the proposal to eliminate the cow elk LEH. This LEH amounts to the possible harvest of 32 cow elk out of an estimated population of 6970 elk according to a 2018 East Kootenay Trench survey. These 32 antlerless elk account for less than 0.5% of the entire herd population. Do you think that dropping this hunt will make a significant impact on the recovery of the dwindling elk populations? I don't think so. It will take drastic measures to curtail the decline and those drastic measures will need to be: 1. Re-instating the grizzly hunt; 2. serious attempt to cull wolves and 3. drastic reduction in the length of the hunting season. I am not in favor of the latter because once the herd recovers, the season will stay shortened so the numbers 1 and 2 are the only viable options.
The East Kootenay Trench probably has the highest grizzly bear population density on the North American continent.

Well we will see what does happen in the years to come if this new proposal is implemented no baiting with salt etc..

I know that science has not come out and said that if saliva is transmitted to others if a deer or other lick the salt block,,my thoughts is why don't they cull a deer that
has CWD put it in a pended area and cull a deer that does not have CWD..

Over the months or a year find out if the deer with no CWD gets this disease that the two deer are licking off the salt block have a camera to know that both deer are
licking the salt block over this period of time then science has did this job to me that's proof..

If science test does prove that this test with the culled deer in the pended area gives DWD to the other then I would think that the ban in the entire BC no salt baiting etc .

This law would have to be in force with cattlemen as well and farmers etc..

My thoughts is management does not have the funding to make science work a real shame ,,science only works if money is not an issue..

[wideopenthrottle]

Great post WB. Its crazy to see how CWD rates have sky-rocketed in a lot of areas in Alberta. Makes it a real ethical struggle on what to do when trying to plan a hunt over there.

I'm personally alright with the ban on baiting/feeding and am happy that whitetail doe numbers have been reduced in the Kootenays. Somehow if I said that in a public area in the Kootenays I feel I'd be strung up for not 'falling in line' with the common thinking.

cuts to the quick on what "healthy herd" numbers really are....we as hunters sometimes forget a healthy herd is not the same as huge numbers of animals

[hunter1947]

cuts to the quick on what "healthy herd" numbers really are....we as hunters sometimes forget a healthy herd is not the same as huge numbers of animals


Yes CWD sky-rocketed and Alberta no baiting for deer elk the law there what goes there ???.

[Rackmastr]

Yes CWD sky-rocketed and Alberta no baiting for deer elk the law there what goes there ???.

Higher population densities in the areas that it spread is a good start. Its not hard to see the past and vast herd reductions along the AB/SK border in an attempt to stop the spread and then an increase of transmission as densities were allowed to grow.

Wayne there is a TON of good info on CWD, transmission, etc on various podcasts and some good lengthy articles. Sit down and listen to a podcast or two and you'll gain an appreciation for it and the research that is going on. MeatEater podcast likely has the best one (Episode 70). Joe Rogan Episode 1154 is another with Bryan Richards and Doug Duren.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Here’s my take on salt blocks( take it with a grain of salt...if you will).

All ungulates will naturally seek out salt. Naturally occurring licks away from people attract ungulates from quite a large area. Find a natural lick and there will can be serious game trails coming in from all directions. Having more salt options spread out actually reduces concentrations of game.
Just a theory but it makes sense to me.

SSS

[russm86]

In 50 years of hunting, I have never use any bait or baiting methods for ungulates , and never will. It , in my eyes is unethical , just about as bad as pit lamping !!

I'm guessing you and GreyDog are probably all for the current proposal of banning scopes and crossbows too huh? Slippery slope, cutting out more and more legal hunting methods will cut out more and more hunters. As is said, death by a thousand cuts and as Martin Niemoller said, "first they came for...", so once all the other currently legal methods of hunting are banned, who's gonna be left to stand with you when it comes down to banning all hunting outright, including your "traditional and ethical" ways.

[wideopenthrottle]

Here’s my take on salt blocks( take it with a grain of salt...if you will).

All ungulates will naturally seek out salt. Naturally occurring licks away from people attract ungulates from quite a large area. Find a natural lick and there will can be serious game trails coming in from all directions. Having more salt options spread out actually reduces concentrations of game.
Just a theory but it makes sense to me.

SSS

your theory is as good as the next...so much research/information yet to learn on these types of (prion producing) diseases

[GreyDog]

I'm guessing you and GreyDog are probably all for the current proposal of banning scopes and crossbows too huh? Slippery slope, cutting out more and more legal hunting methods will cut out more and more hunters. As is said, death by a thousand cuts and as Martin Niemoller said, "first they came for...", so once all the other currently legal methods of hunting are banned, who's gonna be left to stand with you when it comes down to banning all hunting outright, including your "traditional and ethical" ways.
Just because one is in favour of fair chase in hunting, it doesn't necessarily follow that he would support the ban of scopes on crossbows. I'm perfectly fine with scopes on crossbows, although I wonder at what point it ceases to be archery. I am also opposed to banning the use of spears. I am in favour of curtailing the use of trail cams during the hunting season. To be perfectly honest, I'm not a big fan of surveillance on public lands, regardless of who is doing it. As far as baiting is concerned, it ties into the game cam restrictions and it is important to remember that slippery slopes run both ways. For instance: I'm not sure I see anything wrong with the concept of enhancing a natural mineral lick but baiting can get out of hand and I think it has.
I think ATV use needs to be more restricted. The sheer number of ATV's in use, which has increased tremendously over the last twenty years, is having an impact on habitat and game movement. We need to maintain some wilderness areas. To this end, timber harvesting needs to be less destructive of habitat and roads need to be reclaimed after an area is cut. There are too many access roads into areas where animals used to be able to rest. GD

[rocksteady]

your theory is as good as the next...so much research/information yet to learn on these types of (prion producing) diseases

Scientists are saying the prions may be able to luve in soil and or vegatation.. but no proof yet

[Walking Buffalo]

Here’s my take on salt blocks( take it with a grain of salt...if you will).

All ungulates will naturally seek out salt. Naturally occurring licks away from people attract ungulates from quite a large area. Find a natural lick and there will can be serious game trails coming in from all directions. Having more salt options spread out actually reduces concentrations of game.
Just a theory but it makes sense to me.

SSS

Best Science and all that.... there must be redundant research to prove what wildlife behaviors are being influenced by Salt blocks.

With the gov'ment commitment to Best Science, before making a determination on if/how to proceed with banning salt,
there is a need to study Natural licks, determine minerology and CWD status of the soil, use by wildlife, inventory by region.
legislate mandatory registration of all human introduced artificial licks which must be reported to the Department of Licks,
location and content, volume, game camera permit to inventory wildlife use, yearly CWD status testing of the soil.

Only then with detailed comparison of the data can the gov'ment decide if the answer is more or less Salt.


Your theory holds potential to be correct in specific circumstances, it's likely to be wrong in others.
We need the scientists to do their work before we can make a decision on what to do....

[Walking Buffalo]

Scientists are saying the prions may be able to luve in soil and or vegatation.. but no proof yet

There is proof that prions remain infectious in both soil and vegetation.

FYI to all, prions aren't "Alive" by definition....
There are a proteinaceous infectious particle that replicates through recruiting its host to produce mutated (PrPsc) protiens. similar to what viruses do.


The down low on vegetation and CWD.

The potential for mutation to infect humans slightly aside, the great concern for CWD is agricultural contamination.

There is very little publicity to the great threat CWD imposes to North America's breadbasket and the economy.
Mostly on purpose, governments and biz are desperate to keep the lid on this can.
Speculators are ready to go short.

CWD has been confirmed to be uptaken from infected soils by many agricultural crops into the leaves and seeds, even pollen.

The fan is spinning and a huge bag of CWD is inches away from hitting it.
At any time, international interests could demand CWD testing of ALL agricultural products, and embargoes of product from CWD areas.
This could quickly become the greatest economic crash in history!

If/when this happens,
Potential CWD carrying Wildlife would be immediately on the Extermination list.
Forget about managing or controlling ungulate populations,, governments will implement the Nuclear option.

[wideopenthrottle]

last year there was a thread on CWD that was indicating a shift in the theory of what causes cwd. originally a virus was considered probable but then prions were associated with it so they were looked at as the cause. last year there was talk of a bacterium being involved. as well as research into the role of the immune system....i also read some stuff about anti-prions
ill look for a link

https://www.bovinevetonline.com/article/university-calgary-vaccine-protects-against-cwd
(https://www.bovinevetonline.com/article/university-calgary-vaccine-protects-against-cwd)
there is a lot of research looking at the different potential causes as well as potential similarities to some alzheimer pathology...you can spend hours reading...

https://www.merckmanuals.com/en-ca/home/brain,-spinal-cord,-and-nerve-disorders/prion-diseases/overview-of-prion-diseases

[hunter1947]

Scientists are saying the prions may be able to luve in soil and or vegatation.. but no proof yet

If so then the natural licks can cause this disease ??? not baiting with salt ..

[Bugle M In]

That's the ^^^^^thig H47, no one really knows.
Lots of speculation depending what you read.

Personally, if the deer get it, they get it.
No amount of Bait Ban is going to stop it from spreading.
Some just think its something that we can do to not help the spread thru human reasons.
But, otherwise, they will get it naturally also.
Deer will rub, lick everything and anything, even each other.

[Rackmastr]

If so then the natural licks can cause this disease ??? not baiting with salt ..

No one is saying that baiting, salt blocks, or natural mineral licks "cause" the disease.

[Jagermeister]

If so then the natural licks can cause this disease ??? not baiting with salt ..Prions cause the disease. Prions are misfolded proteins which effect normal proteins to misfold and so the chain begins. So the salt lick, natural or otherwise, dust, vegetation can harbor the prion if it was deposited there. Along comes Jennie and she licks the lick, the prion attaches and start attacking her proteins and the prions start in her system. There is no cure and death is imminent. CWD is quite similar to Creutzfeldt-Jakob Disease CJD (mad cow disease).
It appears that the governments are quite lackadaisical about this disease.

[gunpower]

Using a crossbow or a compound bow was never around when I started hunting 50 + years ago . It was a good ole fiberglass , or a wooden longbow and wooden shafted arrows !!! There was not very many scopes around, mostly the good ole iron sights. I guess you must fit right in with the crowd that thinks you are a better hunter because you wear camo , and that not traditional!

[Bugle M In]

Prions cause the disease. Prions are misfolded proteins which effect normal proteins to misfold and so the chain begins. So the salt lick, natural or otherwise, dust, vegetation can harbor the prion if it was deposited there. Along comes Jennie and she licks the lick, the prion attaches and start attacking her proteins and the prions start in her system. There is no cure and death is imminent. CWD is quite similar to Creutzfeldt-Jakob Disease CJD (mad cow disease).
It appears that the governments are quite lackadaisical about this disease. [/SIZE]

I think the big issue is there is "no cure" so it makes it hard for them to "act on it" to be honest.
And then this whole banning baiting is the only way they can appear to be acting like they are "pro-active".
Problem is, they are to chicken shit to then tell the cattle ranchers/association that they have to stop as well.
Private residents who don't hunt also feed deer/elk thru the winter in their back yards.
Doubt they will stop either!!.
(they like having their pets to watch all winter long)

But hey, lets go after the hunter!.
Easy to prosecute, easy to tell them to "stop" thru "further regulation restrictions".

Tell me again..."how is this going to really help"?????
Again, hunters will be reporting hunters to CO's.
And non hunters will continue to throw feed out where ever they want..