BCWF supports BAN on crossbow scopes

[btridge]

In the new proposed regulation changes for the upcoming bow season, BCWF has given there support to banning crossbow scopes, this would effectively ban crossbows for alot of current hunters....VERY SAD

https://apps.nrs.gov.bc.ca/ahte/hunting

[RyoTHC]

In the new proposed regulation changes for the upcoming bow season, BCWF has given there support to banning crossbow scopes, this would effectively ban crossbows for alot of current hunters....VERY SAD


let’s just quit supporting BCWF. They will never get another penny from me, too many fools in their ranks.

[bownut]

Great Idea!

[BriarPatch]

And to think only a few weeks ago many on here condemned & accused Foxton Gundogs of sensationalizing the proposed "secret" crossbow ban now who has egg on their face!!!!!!!

Neither the BCWF, BC Outdoors or other groups promoted on this site and elsewhere as supposedly representing hunters rights or being hunter friendly actually do represent them at all. Simply follow the money trail and it will eventually lead to some at best dubious partnerships.

I have personally spoken on here with people who claim to be hunters yet still support more firearm control and to all I say wake up, when we allow & create division in our own ranks it only helps the various groups who want to destroy our way of life. These issues are not only directly related to firearms and hunting but encompass things such as tail docking in dogs which now prevents many responsible & ethical breeders from breeding dogs and over the next few years the blood lines that they have striven so hard to create in Canada will die out.

And as for anyone supporting firearm control what do you think will happen to the gun stores or the price of ammunition when they can no longer sell hand guns or the ammunition for them?

Do not forget about your friends who work in these stores and who have done so for years and who give good, sound, reliable advice on a daily basis for free.

Unless ALL HUNTERS, FISHERMAN, FARMERS, OUTDOORS PEOPLE, OUTFITTERS, GUIDES, DOG TRAINERS, OUDOOR STORES ETC. stick together & stop all the infighting their will be nothing left.

And finally to all the First Nations out there who frequent this site you too need to be united in this fight with the aforementioned because make no mistake once the resident hunters are extinct, all guns will be gone, your usefulness will come to an end and you will be next with no one left to fight for you. First rule of war "Divide & Conquer"

[boxhitch]

with representatives from the B.C. Wildlife Federation, Guide Outfitters Association of B.C., B.C. Trappers Association, Wild Sheep Society, Wildlife Stewardship Council, and United Bowhunters of B.C., Why single out BCWF as the bad guy? If the proposal didn't have traction, it would be on the floor instead of the table

[kebes]

So far that is someones personal agenda and somehow FG you manage to blame the Fed for the idea
great


Fake news draws first blood usually, and always takes a great effort to heal

I think the reason the bcwf is being made the bad guy is because certain members who give the appearance of being ‘in the know’ denied - or maybe deflected - its support of measures to remove crossbows from the bow season.

I personally don’t mind the ban as crossbows just don’t seem to honour what the regulation was aiming for - although I’m not a huge fan of a bow only season to begin with - but is the Fed ignorant or deceptive? Neither seems a good option for a sportsmen’s representation.

[Deaddog]

, Why single out BCWF as the bad guy? If the proposal didn't have traction, it would be on the floor instead of the table

they want to be portrayed as the voice of residents, and then quietly support or not raise there opposition to it publicly then as a resident who else would be the “ bad guy”. Be interesting to see who bcwf phatat reps got there marching orders from. Pretty clear from the proposed reg changes that the old boys club and their not so secret partners continue to fail supporting hunters and wildlife

[Browning 3\d]

why don`t they banscopes on rifles

[Drdoug]

As pretty much all crossbows rely on a scope to target game accurately this is effectively a ban on crossbows during bow season is it not?
IMO it’s a douchey way of pushing through a crossbow ban.

[bearvalley]

why don`t they banscopes on rifles
Give it time......

[bearvalley]

they want to be portrayed as the voice of residents, and then quietly support or not raise there opposition to it publicly then as a resident who else would be the “ bad guy”. Be interesting to see who bcwf phatat reps got there marching orders from. Pretty clear from the proposed reg changes that the old boys club and their not so secret partners continue to fail supporting hunters and wildlife

There’s a growing number of resident hunters that do not recognize them as their voice.
The need to be kicked away from any table that deals with hunting and wildlife regulation making.
We may as well have the WDL or Raincoast sitting in as our rep.....in fact we’d be better off.
At least we’d know our opponents are going to screw us over....we have a hard time admitting we’re gonna get it from our own “team”.

[E.B.]

As pretty much all crossbows rely on a scope to target game accurately this is effectively a ban on crossbows during bow season is it not?
IMO it’s a douchey way of pushing through a crossbow ban.
Red dot sights or fixed iron sights could still be used and crossbows are not for long distance shooting anyways so nobody would have to stop using them.

[Gateholio]

Regulation Number:
2020-0-05


Status:
Proposed


Region:
Province-Wide


Regulation Type:
General Open Season
Limited Entry Hunting


Species:
All


Closing Date:
January 17, 2020 at midnight


Decision Statement:
Pending



Current Regulations:
There are currently no regulations that prohibit the use of a scope on archery equipment during bow only seasons.



Proposed Regulations:
Prohibit the use of scopes on bows during bow-only seasons



Rationale:
This proposed regulation was requested by the Provincial Hunting and Trapping Advisory Team. For more information on the process that led to the request refer to the “Additional Information” section at the bottom of this page.
Crossbow technology has advanced in recent years and their operation has become easier; some users consider a modern crossbow to be more similar to a firearm than a bow. There is mixed support for crossbows during bow only seasons; many jurisdictions have prohibited crossbows during bow only seasons. In B.C., crossbows are still permitted. As a compromise between permitting and prohibiting crossbows during bow only seasons, it is proposed to reduce the effectiveness of modern versions of these weapons by prohibiting scopes.
Bow only seasons are intended to be short range (i.e. around 40 yards) hunting opportunities, and often allow hunting for classes of species (i.e. any buck or antlerless deer) that are not open through general open seasons when firearms are permitted. Historically, this opportunity was in place simply because the success rates of bow hunters was much lower than that of hunters with firearms. Advancements in crossbow technology has increased the range of crossbows closer to 100 yards, which was not considered when instituting short-range hunting seasons in the past. Prohibiting scopes on bows is thought to bring crossbows back into the short-range weapon category.
Under this proposed regulation the use of scopes on bows would only be prohibited during bow only seasons; scopes on bows would continue to be permitted during general open seasons.



Additional Information:
A sub-committee of the Provincial Hunting and Trapping Advisory Team (PHTAT) with representatives from the B.C. Wildlife Federation, Guide Outfitters Association of B.C., B.C. Trappers Association, Wild Sheep Society, Wildlife Stewardship Council, and United Bowhunters of B.C., conducted a review of various hunting practices (methods, tools, and tactics), evaluated those practices against a set of criteria that reflect the principles of fair chase, and recommended management actions for specific hunting practices. These recommendations were accepted by PHTAT and were forwarded to the Province for consideration.
Factors that influenced or informed the Management Action Recommendation included:


Does the hunting method, tool, or tactic:



Negate wildlife’s ability to avoid detection?
Negate wildlife’s ability to escape once it has detected a threat?
Lead to an inhumane treatment of wildlife?
Lead to increased wounding loss/jeopardize a hunter’s ability to retrieve the wildlife?
Jeopardize public acceptance of hunting?
Result in higher harvest rates/reduced opportunity in the future?



Estimated difficulty in enacting a regulation.
Regulatory enforceability.

The Management Action options available for each hunting practice included:


Encourage/discourage the hunting practice through education and/or training
Regulate the hunting practice through legislative prohibitions
Monitor the hunting practice over the coming years to see if it becomes an issue in B.C.
Defer; not of concern and no specific management action or monitoring is required

[Deaddog]

Red dot sights or fixed iron sights could still be used and crossbows are not for long distance shooting anyways so nobody would have to stop using them.

The fed hired gun likes to spout about managing from a science based perspective. I have looked and cannot find any data that shows the use of scopes on crossbows is or has caused a conservation concern for wildlife populations. Unless bcwf is hiding that data ( totally plausible) why would they support such a restriction. Other than to slowly chip away at hunter numbers. Be interesting to see if this was a board decision or a continuation of an agenda by a select few with the “club” in bcwf ( paid and long term elected board members)

[Gateholio]

I bolded a few interesting parts of the proposal

Looks like there are several groups involved with the proposal, not just BCWF. One of the groups is a Bow Hunting organization. I recall several members of the UBBC being quite vocal that crossbows should not be allowed in bow only season at all.

One of the very interesting reasons cited was that bow seasons are supposed to be "short range/40 yard hunting opportunities" which brings up the point made in the last discussion that compound bows are capable of shots just as far or further than a crossbow.

It seems to me the real way to deal with this would be to remove bow only seasons altogether, or change it to a primitive season with iron sight muzzle loaders, recurves and long bows. If there is an actual conservation concern with the modern crossbow, then there must also be one with the modern compound.

[Brew]

I hope everyone that joins a range this year asks to opt out of a bcwf membership this year if allowed to. Time to join a real org that supports hunters and wildlife and doesn’t try to divide hunters.

[LBM]

So during the rest of the regular season you can have a scope on your crossbow.

[huntingfamily]

I bolded a few interesting parts of the proposal

Looks like there are several groups involved with the proposal, not just BCWF. One of the groups is a Bow Hunting organization. I recall several members of the UBBC being quite vocal that crossbows should not be allowed in bow only season at all.

One of the very interesting reasons cited was that bow seasons are supposed to be "short range/40 yard hunting opportunities" which brings up the point made in the last discussion that compound bows are capable of shots just as far or further than a crossbow.

It seems to me the real way to deal with this would be to remove bow only seasons altogether, or change it to a primitive season with iron sight muzzle loaders, recurves and long bows. If there is an actual conservation concern with the modern crossbow, then there must also be one with the modern compound.

Well said Gates! Hunters targeting other hunter's choice of weapon won't help any of us in the end! Much more important issues we should be focussing on.
Disappointing if this ends up going through...

[Ajsawden]

I have to ask. How many people are honestly shooting deer at 100 yards with a crossbow as the rule change suggests?

[boxhitch]

......... Pretty clear from the proposed reg changes that the old boys club and their not so secret partners continue to fail supporting hunters and wildlifeSo the train of thought has been going on for a long time, including through the term of the past president. Why expect something different? Its not like the Fed has changed colours or running a different flag. Can't fault them for staying true.

[boxhitch]

I hope everyone that joins a range this year asks to opt out of a bcwf membership this year if allowed to. Time to join a real org that supports hunters and wildlife and doesn’t try to divide hunters.would it be better if the Fed did't support any type of archery season at all ? If very few archery-only opps are for conservation specifically , and most are an offering for a special interest group, maybe the hunt shouldn't be supported at all ? Would an extra 9 days of rifle at the beginning of Sept really have an impact on game?

[Deaddog]

So the train of thought has been going on for a long time, including through the term of the past president. Why expect something different? Its not like the Fed has changed colours or running a different flag. Can't fault them for staying true.

What u glass over ( I’m sure accidentally. NOT ). Is that new blood did try to get involved , old boys club did a hatchet job on them ( you know the old boys club well ) nothing about bcwf is as they try to appear, if your shot was at me. I was a fed member for four years in my life , hardly old boys club . Think u will ever take a position on anything or ...or just continue being a snowflake?

[Deaddog]

Or are you saying the feds are staying true to not support hunters?

[REMINGTON JIM]

In the new proposed regulation changes for the upcoming bow season, BCWF has given there support to banning crossbow scopes, this would effectively ban crossbows for alot of current hunters....VERY SAD

https://apps.nrs.gov.bc.ca/ahte/hunting

This is Complete BULL SHIT ! Iron sight's or Scope on Rifles - Pins or Scope on Cross bows or REG Bows - Who gives a SHIT - Theres already too God Dam MANY Rules and Regulations ! I am against the BAN ! RJ

[boxhitch]

No shots D, just saying peeps need not be surprised, nothing has changed so why expect something different

Think u will ever take a position on anything or
I gave my quarts of blood, time to sit back and chill

[Gateholio]

I hope everyone that joins a range this year asks to opt out of a bcwf membership this year if allowed to. Time to join a real org that supports hunters and wildlife and doesn’t try to divide hunters.


You have in your sigline

WSSBC Life Member
WSSBC Monarch Member


Is this the same WSSBC that is also named as supporting this proposed no scopes on crossbows regulation?

[SemperAurum]

This is Complete BULL SHIT ! Iron sight's or Scope on Rifles - Pins or Scope on Cross bows or REG Bows - Who gives a SHIT - Theres already too God Dam MANY Rules and Regulations ! I am against the BAN ! RJ

I am also against the ban. Ridculous rule. Absolutely ridiculous.

I see absolutely no reason to have a special archery only season for any animal. Just get rid of the damn thing. Its 9 days at the front end and 9 days at the back end on some species. Does not amount to a hill of beans.

If you like archery hunting use a bow or crossbow. I you prefer rifle hunting use a gun.

I quit using my crossbow years ago. For me it was nothing more than a time waster to practice and pain in the ass to carry around. Had a few wounded animals get away on me and that sealed the deal.

[Mulehahn]

As Gates pointed out in an earlier post, if this is about distance strictly about distance then what about compound bows. New compound bow technology is making 70 yard shots quite feasible. I don't practice nearly as much as I should (and that is why I didn't take part in the archer season this year) but even was able to keep 3 arrows in about a 12" Circle at 60 yards just screwing around on a whim at the end of a session when I was already tired (the range I use has huge targets. I wasn't worries about losing arrows just face). 70 yards is nearly double the 40 yards that the regulation change is arguing. How can you attack one type of bow for one reason and ignore the other even though it is just as capable? I will be righting all of the groups listed as supporting this ban.

[saskbooknut]

Just speculating here, but I suspect:
It's a glass half full situation for BCWF. You can have a complete ban on Crossbows in Archery season, or you can have a ban on scopes - you choose..

[Hunter gatherer]

Divide and conquer smh. Why attack compounds because crossbows are being attacked. As far as 70 or80 yards shots at game with a compound is ludicrous. Targets are a different story. If someone wants to use a crossbow to hunt archery season go for it they have been around for a long time . Yes technology has gotten better ,that's the good part about man. Maybe they should ban quads, pickups and scopes with high tech shooting systems. I hope some here see the ridiculousness of some comments here. We should stick together. And when you can get that 12" circle at 60 down to a 4" circle then maybe maybe you can shoot at game mr hood.

[randymac]

So it seems there is not much support here for this idiotic proposal so any body that hasn't already should log on to the government website and vote against it . Leave some kind of comment as well otherwise we may never know how many voted against.
Check out all the other proposed regulation changes while your in there and put your 2 cents in on any you are for or against as well otherwise all you can do is bitch when the new regs come out.

https://apps.nrs.gov.bc.ca/ahte/hunting

[Mulehahn]

Divide and conquer smh. Why attack compounds because crossbows are being attacked. As far as 70 or80 yards shots at game with a compound is ludicrous. Targets are a different story. If someone wants to use a crossbow to hunt archery season go for it they have been around for a long time . Yes technology has gotten better ,that's the good part about man. Maybe they should ban quads, pickups and scopes with high tech shooting systems. I hope some here see the ridiculousness of some comments here. We should stick together. And when you can get that 12" circle at 60 down to a 4" circle then maybe maybe you can shoot at game mr hood.

I fully agree. I am no where good enough to shoot game at 60 yards. Heck, I barely picked up my bow this year since spring so I chose not to use it come hunting season as I wasn't comfortable with my abilities even at 30 yards. But that doesn't mean that others aren't. Go through some of the stories on here and lots of other sites. You will see it is already being done. I have watched a few antelope hunts that have even pushed it a little further. People were taking deer at 60+ yards 8 to 10 years ago. With the new generation of range finding sights I am sure it will be becoming more and more common


I am not attacking compound bows, just arguing they are just as capable of shooting the same distance as a crossbow. If distance is the argument then it should be applied equally.

[Wild one]

I fully agree. I am no where good enough to shoot game at 60 yards. Heck, I barely picked up my bow this year since spring so I chose not to use it come hunting season as I wasn't comfortable with my abilities even at 30 yards. But that doesn't mean that others aren't. Go through some of the stories on here and lots of other sites. You will see it is already being done. I have watched a few antelope hunts that have even pushed it a little further. People were taking deer at 60+ yards 8 to 10 years ago. With the new generation of range finding sights I am sure it will be becoming more and more common


I am not attacking compound bows, just arguing they are just as capable of shooting the same distance as a crossbow. If distance is the argument then it should be applied equally.

Like I stated on other threads stupid proposal I would never support but man the BS is getting thick from those trying to justify crossbows

It takes way more effort to reach those ranges with a compound then it does with a crossbow. I have owned and hunted with crossbow, recurve and compound they are all very different. They all have advantages(yes even the recurve) and disadvantages.

In a really skilled archers hands yes the compound can do amazing things and in my opinion is even superior to the crossbow. But if you start talking average joe the crossbow is king and takes way less effort. Even with pin sights the crossbow is easier and that is what I used. I have buddies using the new crossbows with a scope and they are stupid easy to reach out to 60 yards with minimal practice

I have no problem supporting crossbows but the BS gets pretty thick from the pro crossbow crowd

[SemperAurum]

"Prohibiting scopes on bows is thought to bring crossbows back into the short-range weapon category.
Under this proposed regulation the use of scopes on bows would only be prohibited during bow only seasons; scopes on bows would continue to be permitted during general open seasons."

This is absurd and ridiculous. All it does it caters to a special interest group of bow hunters. It does nothing to enhance or conserve wildlife.

Just get rid of the special bow seasons and let people hunt with their weapon of choice.

What a farce. I feel good that I chose many years ago to quit the BCWF and WSSBC and local rod and gun clubs. I met one of the clowns from the BCWF while fishing for salmon. Arrogant prick thought he ran the universe.

[Brew]

You have in your sigline

WSSBC Life Member
WSSBC Monarch Member


Is this the same WSSBC that is also named as supporting this proposed no scopes on crossbows regulation?





I didn’t see that info. My apologies for not reading it fully. But I’ll be having a chat with them about it. Total bullshit

[Gateholio]

Why would a pro- bow hunting organization like the UBBC support this proposal? Do they feel there are too many hunters in bow only season?

[saskbooknut]

Bow hunting organizations have been against crossbows in Archery only season as long as I can remember.
BC is out of sync with most of Canada allowing them.
Here in Saskatchewan crossbows are only allowed in Archery season in the firearm restricted zones around cities. The bowhunting association was/is opposed to crossbows in Archery season here.

[fearnodeer]

Funny, never heard of the BCWF supporting this at all to date, makes me wonder where people get their information from.

[SemperAurum]

Bow hunting organizations have been against crossbows in Archery only season as long as I can remember.
BC is out of sync with most of Canada allowing them.
Here in Saskatchewan crossbows are only allowed in Archery season in the firearm restricted zones around cities. The bowhunting association was/is opposed to crossbows in Archery season here.


It is and always has been a people problem.

Bow hunters are really, really good hunters. The time and dedication is impressive.

Bowhunters should just stfu and go bow hunt and quit worrying about what others are doing. Most buffoons who trample through the forest with a big gun scare the game away before they ever see it. Nowaday many don't even get out of the F150.

Rifle, crossbow, bow, knife, spear, noose on a stick. Who cares. Just go out and hunt in the manner that suits you and enjoy yourself.

[Ovis17]

Also a proposal for banning cellular trail cameras.....Among many others.

[Mulehahn]

Wild one, I am still confused as to what these wild claims are. 90% of my friends who hunt are rifle hunters exclusively. But even with that I know of one moose that taken this year outside of PG at close to 70 yards. Also known a few deer that were taken between 50 and 60 and the largest mule deer I have ever personally seen taken in BC was harvested at 62yds (measured) outside Kamloops 7 years ago. Just because you do not think it is possible or common does not mean that people are not out their practicing or attemting these shots.

But regardless, the motion as presented is not based on how much practice it takes to become proficient. It is simply based on the apparent ability of crossbows to harvest game at much longer distances than a crossbow. That is simply not true. Yes, it takes much more practice but so what?

[Wild one]

Wild one, I am still confused as to what these wild claims are. 90% of my friends who hunt are rifle hunters exclusively. But even with that I know of one moose that taken this year outside of PG at close to 70 yards. Also known a few deer that were taken between 50 and 60 and the largest mule deer I have ever personally seen taken in BC was harvested at 62yds (measured) outside Kamloops 7 years ago. Just because you do not think it is possible or common does not mean that people are not out their practicing or attemting these shots.

But regardless, the motion as presented is not based on how much practice it takes to become proficient. It is simply based on the apparent ability of crossbows to harvest game at much longer distances than a crossbow. That is simply not true. Yes, it takes much more practice but so what?

I am fully aware of what both the crossbow and compound are capable of. I know the distance people will reach out and that there is people practicing to reach these distances. I am also aware that the % of archers that are capable at reach the long ranges vs a crossbow are not the same.

With a rest or shooting sticks you remove form and release factors that most archers will never overcome.

The defence that a compound and crossbow are equal because a compound shooter that is above average can shoot as far as a crossbow shooter who has owned the crossbow for a week is just as dumb as the the proposal

Carry on though

[murph83]

well that sounds about as dumb as the "assualt rifle" ban that JT is bringing down on us...

[Mulehahn]

I am fully aware of what both the crossbow and compound are capable of. I know the distance people will reach out and that there is people practicing to reach these distances. I am also aware that the % of archers that are capable at reach the long ranges vs a crossbow are not the same.

With a rest or shooting sticks you remove form and release factors that most archers will never overcome.

The defence that a compound and crossbow are equal because a compound shooter that is above average can shoot as far as a crossbow shooter who has owned the crossbow for a week is just as dumb as the the proposal

Carry on though

I don't believe it takes an above average shooter to consistently hit a 4" circle at 70 yards. Takes more practice, but i have no doubt that anyone who puts in one practice session every week or two could do it. But all the above average shooters i know practice more than that so your motives may vary.

But I am not going to carry on this conversation. If you truly believe that you have to an amazing archer to pull it off that is fine. Regardless, that is not the point of the proposal. As it is written it is that crossbows are able to make 70 yard not shots PERIOD that us the problem, not that they can make them easier. If that is the case so can compounds. I think i have only shot 1 crossbow in my life, think i hit what the target where I was aiming. Don't remember.

[fearnodeer]

So just so you all know the BCWF does not support this, I am a member and did contact the Fed and this is all hear say.

[Opinionated Ol Phart]

Fearnodeer--please dont confuse this conversation with FACTS !! Some of the conspiracy dudes will chit themselves !!! LOL !!!

[Jagermeister]

I have to ask. How many people are honestly shooting deer at 100 yards with a crossbow as the rule change suggests?Probably less than those people shooting game at 100 yards and beyond with compound bows. As evidenced in these youtube links. I would bet that there is more lost game by hunters with compound bows than any other archery method.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uXTRrtYoRNE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTZ806MrhRE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dIH0bz0Lz0w

These three videos portray mostly compound archery kills. Not one crossbow., Pay attention to the last video. Some of the shots are at distance well beyond the 40 yard window, most in the range of the purported compound 100 yard window. Sure, tell me that these hunts were beyond our borders, but it makes no difference, those with a penchant to take long shots will do so regardless, be it rifle, bow, compound bow or crossbow. Some think that they have some special prowess at killing game with long far away shots. That's because they lack the real ability to get close to make the kill like real hunters. Long shots are like premature ejaculation.


Since this is a dedicated BCWF section, where are the talking heads that govern the BCWF. Cringing behind the green door?

[btridge]

So just so you all know the BCWF does not support this, I am a member and did contact the Fed and this is all hear say.

so why does the BC goverment claim they do? If they don't support it they should demand to have their name removed from the recommending body that supports it.

[dracb]

The problem is that a group of people who have no great experience or expertise with crossbows were asked to evaluate the following with regards to crossbows:



Does the hunting method, tool, or tactic:




Negate wildlife’s ability to avoid detection?
Negate wildlife’s ability to escape once it has detected a threat?
Lead to an inhumane treatment of wildlife?
Lead to increased wounding loss/jeopardize a hunter’s ability to retrieve the wildlife?
Jeopardize public acceptance of hunting?
Result in higher harvest rates/reduced opportunity in the future?


The people asked to make this evaluation were representatives of : B.C. Wildlife Federation, Guide Outfitters Association of B.C., B.C. Trappers Association, Wild Sheep Society, Wildlife Stewardship Council, and United Bowhunters of B.C. With one exception one would not expect any particular representative of those groups to have expertise on crossbow use. Even in the case of the UBBC representative there no assurance he or she had any particular expertise about crossbows. The one I talked to was not absent of knowledge but is not well experienced with crossbows or archery to my knowledge.


Based on current advertising one might expect that people with little archery experience could fined issue with crossbows equipped with scopes. Afterall they look somewhat like rifles (some like black rifles) and have scopes on them Therefore they must be deadly at long range. And then let us not forget the predjudice of some archer hunters towards crossbow hunters.

The fact is that for at least 100 years there have been competitions using longbows, recurves and more recently compound bows where the participants shoot accurately at targets to at least 90 meters distant. The FITA round consists of shooting 144 arrows total at four targets spaced at 30, 50 70 and 90 meters. The 10 ring on these targets is more or less 10 or 12 cm and the bullseye more or less double that diameter. Participants in these matches rather consistently place most of their arrows in the gold. Evidence is clear that one does not need a scope or modern equipment to rather precisely poke arrows in targets at distances approaching 100 metres. When my wife and I used to compete the scores posted by the crossbow shooters were typically somewhat lower than those by the bow shooters, but then that was half a century ago (well maybe a bit more).

What was not presented to the evaluators was the information that those rifle appearing scoped weapons suffer the same problems hitting at a random distance as any arrow flinging device. Even with the advertised velocities for modern crossbows it takes nearly a second for an arrow to reach that 100 metre distant animal. IF a deer can jump the string at 25 metres, it may figuratively not be in the same postal code by the time an arrow reaches 100 metres after the racket a crossbow makes when fired. Ignoring string jumping, during that nearly one second flight time a walking deer has moved the aiming point 1.5 to 2 metres longitudinally (probably). A 5 mph breeze has moved the impact point of the bolt some variable distance based on the characteristics of the particular bolt, its initial velocity and flight characteristics. That velocity which will decrease by the order of 20% or more over that distance will arrive with 30% to 40% less energy resulting in perhaps not getting the pass through required for a good blood trail. Even worse is the fact that the ballistic arc/drop of the bolt will be of the order of two metres at 100 metres and increasing rapidly with each additional metre of distance between the launch point and the target. Hitting the kill zone of deer size target would require the hunter to know the target distance almost precisely to achieve a killing hit. Miss judge by five to ten metres the distance to target and it is Maggy drawers to you sir.

Yes in theory any of the common arrow flingers can be accurate enough to hit a target at a precisely known distance for which the sights can be set and in the absence of any climatic influence. Toss in a little wind, a little movement of the target, a little rain, maybe some increase or decrease in elevation and move that target backward or forward 10 meters and that precision shooting degenerates into pattern shooting with broad dispersion. Yes modern advancements in both crossbows and compounds have extended the distance they might be used efficiently but realistically it is not much more than the 40 metres we used to look at as a maximum ethical range for bow hunting.

Of interest is a description in a current bow hunting magazine. It describes the trials and tribulations of a number of sports writers testing a modern crossbow affixed with a top of the line crossbow optic. They had no problem in dialing in the equipment at 50 yards. When they tried to step out to 100 yards, advertisers cant be damned, hitting a target was just not going to be done on call. First off, the scope would not provide enough adjustment to see the target at 100 yards. They had to hold on the top of a distant hill and they lost a few bolts trying to walk the bolts on target. Eventually one of the five shooters was able to hit an apple at 100 yards and they called it a day.

[last light]

I strongly encourage people who want to keep crossbow hunting in B.C., to voice themselves on the current proposal. It's easy to do, click on the link in post #1 of this thread, login, and vote. Thank you!

[Jagermeister]

The problem is that a group of people who have no great experience or expertise with crossbows were asked to evaluate the following with regards to crossbows:



Does the hunting method, tool, or tactic:




Negate wildlife’s ability to avoid detection?
Negate wildlife’s ability to escape once it has detected a threat?
Lead to an inhumane treatment of wildlife?
Lead to increased wounding loss/jeopardize a hunter’s ability to retrieve the wildlife?
Jeopardize public acceptance of hunting?
Result in higher harvest rates/reduced opportunity in the future?


The people asked to make this evaluation were representatives of : B.C. Wildlife Federation, Guide Outfitters Association of B.C., B.C. Trappers Association, Wild Sheep Society, Wildlife Stewardship Council, and United Bowhunters of B.C. With one exception one would not expect any particular representative of those groups to have expertise on crossbow use. Even in the case of the UBBC representative there no assurance he or she had any particular expertise about crossbows. The one I talked to was not absent of knowledge but is not well experienced with crossbows or archery to my knowledge.


Based on current advertising one might expect that people with little archery experience could fined issue with crossbows equipped with scopes. Afterall they look somewhat like rifles (some like black rifles) and have scopes on them Therefore they must be deadly at long range. And then let us not forget the predjudice of some archer hunters towards crossbow hunters.

The fact is that for at least 100 years there have been competitions using longbows, recurves and more recently compound bows where the participants shoot accurately at targets to at least 90 meters distant. The FITA round consists of shooting 144 arrows total at four targets spaced at 30, 50 70 and 90 meters. The 10 ring on these targets is more or less 10 or 12 cm and the bullseye more or less double that diameter. Participants in these matches rather consistently place most of their arrows in the gold. Evidence is clear that one does not need a scope or modern equipment to rather precisely poke arrows in targets at distances approaching 100 metres. When my wife and I used to compete the scores posted by the crossbow shooters were typically somewhat lower than those by the bow shooters, but then that was half a century ago (well maybe a bit more).

What was not presented to the evaluators was the information that those rifle appearing scoped weapons suffer the same problems hitting at a random distance as any arrow flinging device. Even with the advertised velocities for modern crossbows it takes nearly a second for an arrow to reach that 100 metre distant animal. IF a deer can jump the string at 25 metres, it may not be in the same postal code by the time an arrow reaches 100 metres after the racket a crossbow makes when fired. Ignoring string jumping, during that nearly one second flight time a walking deer has moved the aiming point 1.5 to 2 metres longitudinally (probably). A 5 mph breeze has moved the impact point of the bolt some variable distance based on the characteristics of the particular bolt, its initial velocity and flight characteristics. That velocity which will decrease by the order of 20% or more over that distance will arrive with 30% to 40% less energy resulting in perhaps not getting the pass through required for a good blood trail. Even worse is the fact that the ballistic arc/drop of the bolt will be of the order of two metres at 100 metres and increasing rapidly with each additional metre of distance between the launch point and the target. Hitting the kill zone of deer size target would require the hunter to know the target distance almost precisely to achieve a killing hit. Miss judge by five to ten metres the distance to target and it is Maggy drawers to you sir.

Yes in theory any of the common arrow flingers can be accurate enough to hit a target at a precisely known distance for which the sights can be set and in the absence of any climatic influence. Toss in a little wind, a little movement of the target, a little rain, maybe some increase or decrease in elevation and move that target backward or forward 10 meters and that precision shooting degenerates into pattern shooting with broad dispersion. Yes modern advancements in both crossbows and compounds have extended the distance they might be used efficiently but realistically it is not much more than the 40 metres we used to look at as a maximum ethical range for bow hunting.

Of interest is a description in a current bow hunting magazine. It describes the trials and tribulations of a number of sports writers testing a modern crossbow affixed with a top of the line crossbow optic. They had no problem in dialing in the equipment at 50 yards. When they tried to step out to 100 yards, advertisers cant be damned, hitting a target was just not going to be done on call. First off they scope would not provide enough adjustment to see the target at 100 yards. They had to hold on the top of a distant hill and the lost a few bolts trying to walk the bolts on target. Eventually one of the five shooters was able to hit an apple at 100 yards and they called it a day.


Thanks for taking the time for this factual representation on archery and bowhunting. I would hope that you have presented this in rebuttal to the proposal.

[Gateholio]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uXTRrtYoRNE

[Gateholio]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTZ806MrhRE

[Gateholio]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dIH0bz0Lz0w

[Wild one]

Yup every archer can do that lol

[Hunter gatherer]

Yea good video because that's what archery is all about,that's what I strive for. Gate if you can't see what's wrong with that then SMH.

[Deaddog]

So just so you all know the BCWF does not support this, I am a member and did contact the Fed and this is all hear say.

pretty clear that whomever you spoke to in the lower mainland office is out of touch with what the phatat rep did or didn’t agree to at a meeting. In fact the board of the fed is likely unaware. IF it was the case the fed was against this proposal where is there opposition noted?? Looks to me like more old boys club play dumb and carry on with the agenda

[fearnodeer]

Well if you are referring to a thread here that was started as the BCWF Reg 2 want to ban crossbows ? that was a that full of false information, it was mentioned that that be re classified but never made it anywhere, you can go on the BCWF website and find no support for any of this. It would be better for you to contact the Government as well as the BCWF with you disagreements with the proposed changes. The time spent here bashing would be better spent writing a letter to the above.

[Walking Buffalo]

Reminds me of the Grizzly hunt ban.

[J_T]

I understand this and other proposed regulation changes usually come as a surprise. It isn't easy to stay connected and aware of discussions that eventually become proposals for change. Most people involved in committee, are subject to a degree of confidentiality to ensure that rumours don't take hold early on in the process.

The province supports regional hunting advisory groups, a provincial hunting/trapping advisory team and an online engagement process to obtain proposals, discussion and feedback.

At the end of the day, everyone involved understands they must continue to work together as hunters and conservationists. These decisions are not made without a lot of dialogue. Of course not everyone will be happy. Just like, not everyone is happy when they change a season in the regulations. People like the status quo.

I think it is important to understand the history of how this and other decisions came about. About a year ago, some of the participants on the Provincial committee started to raise questions about 'Fair Chase'. And it was agreed to form a committee to discuss the topic of fair chase. As you see in the proposals, (methods, tools, and tactics) weapons use, and determining seasons falls under Short, Mid and Long range weapons. There were approximately 20 items listed for discussion that were 'ranked' on a variety of criteria. In the end, each item landed with a decision to:


regulate,
discourage (educate),
monitor or
defer

Criteria used, were:


fair chase,

an animals ability to avoid detection,
an animals ability to escape once detected


humane treatment of wildlife,
wounding,
public perception and acceptance of hunting,
harvest rates,
enforcement.


The UBBC sought bowhunter representation from each region on a sub-committee and included the provincial organizations BCAA and TBBC in the discussion. The UBBC had a single representative on the Provincial Fair Chase committee.

Everyone contributes. And Government analyze the information and render the decision/proposal.

With technology advancing, it is not unreasonable to have fair chase discussions. This isn't about crossbows. This is about fair chase and determining seasons. It's also important to know the Conservation Officer service was an active participant in the discussion and they provide important information which factors into decisions.

There is a lot of Youtube video, hunting shows and hunting ads, that lead a lot of (perhaps new) hunters to believe incorrectly about the effective range of weapons. Target shooting is very different than taking aim on a live animal.

We can't make statements about aligning to North American Wildlife Management Models and Science-based decisions if we aren't prepared to look at our own approach (Methods, Tools and Tactics) as hunters.

In all of these discussions, there was never any attempt to divide the hunting community, or chip away at hunter numbers and there was every attempt to maintain opportunity. This group of hunters and academic wildlife biologists, maintains respect for the rights of Indigenous People, the Guide Outfitting business, trapping, and resident hunters.

[358mag]

The problem is that a group of people who have no great experience or expertise with crossbows were asked to evaluate the following with regards to crossbows:



Does the hunting method, tool, or tactic:




Negate wildlife’s ability to avoid detection?
Negate wildlife’s ability to escape once it has detected a threat?
Lead to an inhumane treatment of wildlife?
Lead to increased wounding loss/jeopardize a hunter’s ability to retrieve the wildlife?
Jeopardize public acceptance of hunting?
Result in higher harvest rates/reduced opportunity in the future?


The people asked to make this evaluation were representatives of : B.C. Wildlife Federation, Guide Outfitters Association of B.C., B.C. Trappers Association, Wild Sheep Society, Wildlife Stewardship Council, and United Bowhunters of B.C. With one exception one would not expect any particular representative of those groups to have expertise on crossbow use. Even in the case of the UBBC representative there no assurance he or she had any particular expertise about crossbows. The one I talked to was not absent of knowledge but is not well experienced with crossbows or archery to my knowledge.


Based on current advertising one might expect that people with little archery experience could fined issue with crossbows equipped with scopes. Afterall they look somewhat like rifles (some like black rifles) and have scopes on them Therefore they must be deadly at long range. And then let us not forget the predjudice of some archer hunters towards crossbow hunters.

The fact is that for at least 100 years there have been competitions using longbows, recurves and more recently compound bows where the participants shoot accurately at targets to at least 90 meters distant. The FITA round consists of shooting 144 arrows total at four targets spaced at 30, 50 70 and 90 meters. The 10 ring on these targets is more or less 10 or 12 cm and the bullseye more or less double that diameter. Participants in these matches rather consistently place most of their arrows in the gold. Evidence is clear that one does not need a scope or modern equipment to rather precisely poke arrows in targets at distances approaching 100 metres. When my wife and I used to compete the scores posted by the crossbow shooters were typically somewhat lower than those by the bow shooters, but then that was half a century ago (well maybe a bit more).

What was not presented to the evaluators was the information that those rifle appearing scoped weapons suffer the same problems hitting at a random distance as any arrow flinging device. Even with the advertised velocities for modern crossbows it takes nearly a second for an arrow to reach that 100 metre distant animal. IF a deer can jump the string at 25 metres, it may not be in the same postal code by the time an arrow reaches 100 metres after the racket a crossbow makes when fired. Ignoring string jumping, during that nearly one second flight time a walking deer has moved the aiming point 1.5 to 2 metres longitudinally (probably). A 5 mph breeze has moved the impact point of the bolt some variable distance based on the characteristics of the particular bolt, its initial velocity and flight characteristics. That velocity which will decrease by the order of 20% or more over that distance will arrive with 30% to 40% less energy resulting in perhaps not getting the pass through required for a good blood trail. Even worse is the fact that the ballistic arc/drop of the bolt will be of the order of two metres at 100 metres and increasing rapidly with each additional metre of distance between the launch point and the target. Hitting the kill zone of deer size target would require the hunter to know the target distance almost precisely to achieve a killing hit. Miss judge by five to ten metres the distance to target and it is Maggy drawers to you sir.

Yes in theory any of the common arrow flingers can be accurate enough to hit a target at a precisely known distance for which the sights can be set and in the absence of any climatic influence. Toss in a little wind, a little movement of the target, a little rain, maybe some increase or decrease in elevation and move that target backward or forward 10 meters and that precision shooting degenerates into pattern shooting with broad dispersion. Yes modern advancements in both crossbows and compounds have extended the distance they might be used efficiently but realistically it is not much more than the 40 metres we used to look at as a maximum ethical range for bow hunting.

Of interest is a description in a current bow hunting magazine. It describes the trials and tribulations of a number of sports writers testing a modern crossbow affixed with a top of the line crossbow optic. They had no problem in dialing in the equipment at 50 yards. When they tried to step out to 100 yards, advertisers cant be damned, hitting a target was just not going to be done on call. First off they scope would not provide enough adjustment to see the target at 100 yards. They had to hold on the top of a distant hill and the lost a few bolts trying to walk the bolts on target. Eventually one of the five shooters was able to hit an apple at 100 yards and they called it a day.



Very interesting write up . Not to stir the pot but just change crossbow to long range hunting shooting at 1000 yards .................

[IronNoggin]

I acquired a crossbow due to multiple shoulder injuries that prevent me from using a compound or recurve any longer.
Both my eyes have had repeated surgeries and damage to the extent that I can no longer use iron sights. Period.

This proposal would effectively remove me from the archery seasons. I am far from alone in this situation.

Upon returned from my latest successful crossbow hunt 2 days ago, I learned of this nonsensical proposal.
Yesterday, I had a good long chat with my Lawyer over this matter.
He advises that should this be implemented, a very strong case for discrimination against seniors and / or handicapped individuals exists, and that he is more than willing to take this on. I will be directly writing the Chair of each of the organizations involved in producing this proposal, advising them that their organization will be named in a legal challenge should this proposal move forward. The same will also be sent to the wildlife ministry of BC.

In addition, I will be mounting a public awareness campaign over the next few days.

This is NOT a conservation matter. Period.
It does smack of spite and elitism, and I am simply not going to sit idly by while my hunting access is being directly attacked in this manner.

If the object is to increase wounding / loss rates for crossbow use they could not have dreamed up a better scheme...

Disgusted!
Matt

[IronNoggin]

Why would a pro- bow hunting organization like the UBBC support this proposal? Do they feel there are too many hunters in bow only season?

Elitism pure & simple Gate. It has always existed in such organizations.


So just so you all know the BCWF does not support this, I am a member and did contact the Fed and this is all hear say.

Bullshit. If that is actually the case, they had better get their name removed from the list of those who endorsed this nonsensical proposal, and make an immediate public disclaimer to the same. Without that, I do not believe your assertions for one second.


... In all of these discussions, there was never any attempt to divide the hunting community, or chip away at hunter numbers and there was every attempt to maintain opportunity. This group of hunters and academic wildlife biologists, maintains respect for the rights of Indigenous People, the Guide Outfitting business, trapping, and resident hunters.

Without having to be a Rocket Scientist there is no way in hell that group could not grasp the implications of their support for this utter nonsense, nor the divisiveness the proposal would create. Suggesting there was no overt attempt to create division is simply ducking the results of their own actions. Sad.

Respect? Bullshit. I see no form of respect whatsoever in this move. No alignment with any real conservation concern whatsoever. And as I said before certainly reeks of elitism and spite.

Letters in the lawyers hands now. Will post them once he has vetted them...

Ticked,
Nog

[Opinionated Ol Phart]

Yup ! ..............

[sakohunter]

I hope everyone that joins a range this year asks to opt out of a bcwf membership this year if allowed to. Time to join a real org that supports hunters and wildlife and doesn’t try to divide hunters.

The wild sheep society is involved in the proposal also. Are they not connected with One campfire. So the the way I see it is all these groups are looking to solidify there own interests and not the interest of the resident hunters of BC. The main purpose of a scope on a rifle or crossbow is to help insure a humaine harvest of a legal game animal. I could go on and on about this, but the continued restrictions on legal hunting methods will lead to the end of our ability to provide organic meat for our families. We all should be asking the organizations why they are behind restrictions that will lead to the end of hunting for the residents of BC. Accept for one very special interest group.

[Gateholio]

Yea good video because that's what archery is all about,that's what I strive for. Gate if you can't see what's wrong with that then SMH.

The videos I posted were from Jagermeisters post. I just embedded them for him, so people could easily view them.

The point is well made though- Anything regulation that aspires to limit the range of crossbows also needs to address the range of modern compounds.

[Razor84]

This thread should be titled UBBC (UNITED BOWHUNTERS BRITISH COLUMBIA) wants to ban scopes, not BCWF. Some of the UBBC have wanted crossbows out of bow season for years. This proposal is 100% UBBC and 0% BCWF IMO

[J_T]

This thread should be titled UBBC (UNITED BOWHUNTERS BRITISH COLUMBIA) wants to ban scopes, not BCWF. Some of the UBBC have wanted crossbows out of bow season for years. This proposal is 100% UBBC and 0% BCWF IMO Not sure where this information or your summation comes from. I would suggest in terms of where the proposal first came from, you look at the enforcement perspective.

[Wild one]

The videos I posted were from Jagermeisters post. I just embedded them for him, so people could easily view them.

The point is well made though- Anything regulation that aspires to limit the range of crossbows also needs to address the range of modern compounds.

The proposal includes scopes on compounds too and the way it’s worded it may include the magnifying lens some use on compound sights. It does not exclude bows it’s just more common to have scopes on crossbows

still a stupid proposal

[Onesock]

I guess its ok for xbows to shoot 80 or 100 yds during rifle season but would be unethical to do so in bow only seasons!! WTF!!! Maybe some guide outfitters got a moose shot out from under them by a xbow before GOS opened.
I dont think this came from UBBC but maybe it was a comprimise. Bullshit.

[Onesock]

Everyone has to make their voice heard on the gov.bc web page.

[willyqbc]

Unless things have changed since I sat as a UBBC rep in regional allocation meetings....going after crossbows was never on our agenda. I never would have been involved if it was.

[Brew]

The wild sheep society is involved in the proposal also. Are they not connected with One campfire. So the the way I see it is all these groups are looking to solidify there own interests and not the interest of the resident hunters of BC. The main purpose of a scope on a rifle or crossbow is to help insure a humaine harvest of a legal game animal. I could go on and on about this, but the continued restrictions on legal hunting methods will lead to the end of our ability to provide organic meat for our families. We all should be asking the organizations why they are behind restrictions that will lead to the end of hunting for the residents of BC. Accept for one very special interest group.

i have written a letter to WSSBC regarding this issue and mentioned One Campfire in it. I am waiting for a response from the member that looks after this type of thing.

[Mulies]

Thought the BCWF was here to support hunters not restrict those of us who can no longer shoot a compound because of rotator cuff issues. This ban would effect fully stop me from hunting the bow season. We don’t have enough to worry about with the liberals doing their best to take away are rifles now we have a group that’s supposedly for sportsmen screwing us out of participating in something I’ve enjoyed up until now. There’s enough to fight the anti’s with out fighting amongst our selves.

[Onesock]

In my opinion it is not the bowhunters pushing tbis scope ban it is the natives and the guide outfitters.

[Buckmeister]

Scopes help effect a clean and efficient kill. Are they prepared to have more animals wounded rather than killed???

[fearnodeer]

Everyone has to make their voice heard on the gov.bc web page.

Big dreams there for all the arm chair quarterbacks on here.

[sakohunter]

i have written a letter to WSSBC regarding this issue and mentioned One Campfire in it. I am waiting for a response from the member that looks after this type of thing.

Awsome stuff Brew! I have also sent the same questions to BCWF and WSS. Let see if they have real answers.

[saskbooknut]

Be careful with your arguments.
How about "If crossbows are no good without scopes, then ban all bows without scopes" is a logical conclusion.
I suspect the proposal started with "ban all crossbows in Archery season", and this is the resulting compromise.
If the energy displayed on this proposed change was shown on issues like habitat protection and enhancement, and translated into implementation on the ground. there might actually be better game populations.

[bighornbob]

i have written a letter to WSSBC regarding this issue and mentioned One Campfire in it. I am waiting for a response from the member that looks after this type of thing.

Im only assuming here but I would imagine that the WSSBC only made comments or reccommendations on sheep issues or proposals. They may be named as sitting on the committee but I doubt they got a say on bobcat seasons or moose seasons etc.

In my current job I get invited to a bunch of meeting but only get to comment on issues as they relate to the Environment. Im not asked for input on hydrant requirements for the Fire department or if garbage trucks are able to turn around in a small cul-de-sac.

Once again Im just assuming.

BHB

[skibum]

So why wasn't the scoped crossbow regional group(s) involved in the proposed regulation consultations?

[Harvest the Land]

Posted my comments on the gov't site. Let your voices be heard people. Take 5 minutes out of your holiday season and tell these geniuses how much of a f_cked up policy proposal this is.

I will be calling the BCWF on Monday, not sure if their office is closed or not for the holidays, and if it is I will call when it reopens, and going to ask directly if they really do support this ban.
I Refuse to continue donating on a monthly basis to any organization that advocates for restricting hunters rights

[IronNoggin]

... I will be calling the BCWF on Monday, not sure if their office is closed or not for the holidays, and if it is I will call when it reopens, and going to ask directly if they really do support this ban...


The question has been asked. They do NOT support this proposal.
I have been informed a Public Announcement to that effect is eminent.

Stay Tuned...
Nog

[ridgerunner]

I understand this and other proposed regulation changes usually come as a surprise. It isn't easy to stay connected and aware of discussions that eventually become proposals for change. Most people involved in committee, are subject to a degree of confidentiality to ensure that rumours don't take hold early on in the process.

The province supports regional hunting advisory groups, a provincial hunting/trapping advisory team and an online engagement process to obtain proposals, discussion and feedback.

At the end of the day, everyone involved understands they must continue to work together as hunters and conservationists. These decisions are not made without a lot of dialogue. Of course not everyone will be happy. Just like, not everyone is happy when they change a season in the regulations. People like the status quo.

I think it is important to understand the history of how this and other decisions came about. About a year ago, some of the participants on the Provincial committee started to raise questions about 'Fair Chase'. And it was agreed to form a committee to discuss the topic of fair chase. As you see in the proposals, (methods, tools, and tactics) weapons use, and determining seasons falls under Short, Mid and Long range weapons. There were approximately 20 items listed for discussion that were 'ranked' on a variety of criteria. In the end, each item landed with a decision to:


regulate,
discourage (educate),
monitor or
defer

Criteria used, were:


fair chase,

an animals ability to avoid detection,
an animals ability to escape once detected


humane treatment of wildlife,
wounding,
public perception and acceptance of hunting,
harvest rates,
enforcement.


The UBBC sought bowhunter representation from each region on a sub-committee and included the provincial organizations BCAA and TBBC in the discussion. The UBBC had a single representative on the Provincial Fair Chase committee.

Everyone contributes. And Government analyze the information and render the decision/proposal.

With technology advancing, it is not unreasonable to have fair chase discussions. This isn't about crossbows. This is about fair chase and determining seasons. It's also important to know the Conservation Officer service was an active participant in the discussion and they provide important information which factors into decisions.

There is a lot of Youtube video, hunting shows and hunting ads, that lead a lot of (perhaps new) hunters to believe incorrectly about the effective range of weapons. Target shooting is very different than taking aim on a live animal.

We can't make statements about aligning to North American Wildlife Management Models and Science-based decisions if we aren't prepared to look at our own approach (Methods, Tools and Tactics) as hunters.

In all of these discussions, there was never any attempt to divide the hunting community, or chip away at hunter numbers and there was every attempt to maintain opportunity. This group of hunters and academic wildlife biologists, maintains respect for the rights of Indigenous People, the Guide Outfitting business, trapping, and resident hunters.


Thanks for posting this. Too many times we have let our opponents define the battlefield so I applaud the PHATT members for trying to get in front of the issue for a change. The principles and process look legitimate to me. They committee made their deliberations and now have set them out for public scrutiny. Herein lies the problem.

These ideas and concepts should have been brought forward by each of the groups to their membership, vetted and then tabled at PHATT. Not all ideas that come from brainstorming sessions are good ones, the crossbow ban being a case in point. Now we have 25,000 people signed on to oppose cat hunting. (This by the way is how they develop their mailing list for elections) This is hard to fix now that it is public, but I think the groups involved need to request government withdraw the public consultation process until the proposals are properly vetted by membership and tabled at PHATT.

https://www.change.org/p/tell-premier-john-horgan-minister-doug-donaldson-to-ban-the-hunting-of-cougar-lynx-bobcat-in-british-columbia-canada/u/25510835

[Harvest the Land]

The question has been asked. They do NOT support this proposal.
I have been informed a Public Announcement to that effect is eminent.

Stay Tuned...
Nog

Ok good to know - thanks for clarifying Nog. Found it so hard to believe that they'd support this bonehead idea

[dracb]

Actually it is hard to blame any of these organizations that sit on PHTAT. The actual members who sit on PHTAT are required to sign a confidentiality agreement and can not share any information with or seek advice from their home organization. Therefore anything they bring to the PHTAT system is exclusively their own prejudices. Just governments way of spreading the blame for bad decisions.

[IronNoggin]

... The actual members who sit on PHTAT are required to sign a confidentiality agreement and can not share any information with or seek advise from their home organization...

Minutes apparently exist... :wink:

Nog

[Walking Buffalo]

Minutes apparently exist... :wink:

Nog

Good.
Maybe....

That's better than Alberta's secret wildlife/hunting advisory council, where members led by the Alberta Bowhunters Association decided that minutes were NOT to be made.

Then again, when our advisory council took and released minutes to the public, the government's creative writer wrote them to be so ambiguous as to be worthless.

[thelazygreenfox]

The leadership of the BCWF has a lot of loose bricks in their heads. They must be listening to all the anti hunting groups. I thought they had a backbone but I guess not. My emails and letters are going in to all the groups involved. Nobody is going to stand up for the xbow hunters and target shooters so we better shout loud and clear.

Who are the Hunting BC BCWF executive? There are a few on this site.

Wish us luck
Wayne

[biggyun68]

So is anybody gong to do what I did and put their input to the Government outlining they are a BCWF member (or perhaps you are also a member of the other organizations involved) and said you do not agree?
I also opposed the Infrared optic proposal. The purpose of infra red optics is to improve the finding of game especially after the shot when it can be difficult to find quarry in thick brush.

Scopes improve accuracy and therefore make more ethical shots. Eyesight does not improve with age and with most hunters North of 40 I see banning optics as not a good thing.

As to the BCWF and other organization conspiracy my personal conversations with folks who have been leading these discussions are seem to lean towards to old story of luditeness and elitism. However, there organizations are all Volunteer member lead. If you want change go to the meetings and participate, otherwise continue to piss in the ocean to warm it up.

I suggest any hunter who is that experienced that they do not require these measures get off their key board an offer to mentor some new hunters to their excellent level. Alas I do not see many with this vision of community in our community.

PS Kudos to Foxton who spoke up about Region 2.

[Tred]

Sounds to me like archery "purist" who think all bow hunting has to be done in a vertical fashion have pushed really hard, and this is the "compromise."

Sadly I think this will pass despite some push back. That said anyone want to buy a crossbow.

[Wild one]

Sounds to me like archery "purist" who think all bow hunting has to be done in a vertical fashion have pushed really hard, and this is the "compromise."

Sadly I think this will pass despite some push back. That said anyone want to buy a crossbow.

Nope but you are doing a good job of sticking a knife in the back of some of those who stood to defend crossbows

[Mulehahn]

I am glad that this is still being brought to the forefront but it has been established numerous times that the 'Archery Purists" are not the ones behind this and that the members of the archery group sitting at the table are one of the few who actually stood their ground and voted against it. That is more than can likely be said of several of the other people at the table whose groups they represent "officially" oppose it but they voted for it anyways.

Maybe it really was the best choice available, maybe they voted with their own personal bias, or maybe the groups they represent changed their tune after seeing the backlash. I don't know. But i do know that ALL hunters should be making their comments on the proposals (when site gets back up), and ALL hunters should be asking a lot of questions of all the groups at the table; non of which were resident hunter organizations!!!

Also, please stop blaming the archers!

[Gateholio]

I've seen far too many anti crossbow posts over the years from certain bow hunters to believe that there were not some bow hunters salivating at the idea of putting further restrictions on crossbows.

I would like to see a public announcement from all groups listed on these proposals about why they supported them and if they did not support the proposals, why they are named as supporting them if they actually did not.

[Wild one]

I've seen far too many anti crossbow posts over the years from certain bow hunters to believe that there were not some bow hunters salivating at the idea of putting further restrictions on crossbows.

I would like to see a public announcement from all groups listed on these proposals about why they supported them and if they did not support the proposals, why they are named as supporting them if they actually did not.

And you have a long history of being anti archery opportunity and accusations that anything suggested in this manner is elitists trying to keep others out

If we are taking the history of peoples character into consideration

[Gateholio]

And you have a long history of being anti archery opportunity and accusations that anything suggested in this manner is elitists trying to keep others out

If we are taking the history of peoples character into consideration

Bullshit.

I'm not anti archery opportunity if it makes sense. "Because we want a special season" does not make sense to me, but there are other reasons that do, such as safety or conservation.

I am however anti elitist. Anyone that wants to keep a different form of bow than they use out of bow season is an elitist.

[Wild one]

Bullshit.

I'm not anti archery opportunity if it makes sense. "Because we want a special season" does not make sense to me, but there are other reasons that do, such as safety or conservation.

I am however anti elitist. Anyone that wants to keep a different form of bow than they use out of bow season is an elitist.

So do you still believe when conservation is concerned that straight LEH is the only fair option over an LEH/archery season combo because the archery season “excludes” people?

You have stated an number of times in the past that only GOS or LEH is the fair option and bow hunting can take place during those seasons if they want to bow hunt. So when is a archery season an option in your opinion?

I have no problem giving you the benifit of the doubt that you have changed your mindset overt the years but you have stated your opposition to archery seasons many times

[Gateholio]

So do you still believe when conservation is concerned that straight LEH is the only fair option over an LEH/archery season combo because the archery season “excludes” people?

You have stated an number of times in the past that only GOS or LEH is the fair option and bow hunting can take place during those seasons if they want to bow hunt. So when is a archery season an option in your opinion?

I have no problem giving you the benifit of the doubt that you have changed your mindset overt the years but you have stated your opposition to archery seasons many times


My thoughts on bow seasons are simple-

If an opportunity can be made to hunt with a bow that can not be made available to hunt with all weapons, then a bow only season is desirable. If it's just a special season because "bow hunters want an exclusive season" then it makes no sense to me.

You are losing sight of the most important thing though. Unlike the organizations listed as supporting these proposals, my personal opinions do not dictate or influence policy or regulation. It would be nice if all the groups listed issued statements on these proposals and clearly indicated what they voted to endorse to clear up any ambiguity.

[Wild one]

My thoughts on bow seasons are simple-

If an opportunity can be made to hunt with a bow that can not be made available to hunt with all weapons, then a bow only season is desirable. If it's just a special season because "bow hunters want an exclusive season" then it makes no sense to me.

You are losing sight of the most important thing though. Unlike the organizations listed as supporting these proposals, my personal opinions do not dictate or influence policy or regulation. It would be nice if all the groups listed issued statements on these proposals and clearly indicated what they voted to endorse to clear up any ambiguity.

If that is your view so be it but you still have a history of statements that contradict what you are saying today. If you agree or not you have given an anti archery opportunity vibe to many beyond myself. People can search and make there own call if they wish. The question I asked did not get pulled out of thin air

If it is wrong to judge you by your past statements you are way out of line judging those who voted because of what ”some bow hunters” have said are anti crossbow

but I doubt this will have any impact so continue on

[Mulehahn]

Gates, I am not saying that certain members of the archery community would not be all over this. All I am saying is that when it comes to this proposal Archers aren't to blame. They can see the writing on the wall for BOS.

At this table rrsident hunters were not represented. It thst simple. Of the groups there the archers were the closest.

[Gateholio]

If that is your view so be it but you still have a history of statements that contradict what you are saying today. If you agree or not you have given an anti archery opportunity vibe to many beyond myself. People can search and make there own call if they wish. The question I asked did not get pulled out of thin air

If it is wrong to judge you by your past statements you are way out of line judging those who voted because of what ”some bow hunters” have said are anti crossbow

but I doubt this will have any impact so continue on

No, I'm not making contradictory statements. I feel the exact same way now as I ever did. I am not anti archery at all. People should hunt with whatever they choose, but not at the expense of others opportunity. Weapon choice should not equal extra privileges in my opinion. Obviously since we have had special bow seasons for many years, the government disagrees with me, and that is fine as I am used to disagreeing with government on many subjects.

I don't actually care if you "judge" me. You are just some guy on the internet, like the rest of us. Your opinion of me has no effect on my life whatsoever.

Again, what is really important is what led to the various groups endorsing these proposals. That's the real subject. We have just learned that the WSSoBC voted in favour of this. What other groups did too, and why?

[Gateholio]

Gates, I am not saying that certain members of the archery community would not be all over this. All I am saying is that when it comes to this proposal Archers aren't to blame. They can see the writing on the wall for BOS.

At this table rrsident hunters were not represented. It thst simple. Of the groups there the archers were the closest.


Hopefully they will issue a statement soon.

[sthdslayer]

Gateholio==To me archery season helps spread out the pressure myself and the guys I hunt with almost exclusively hunt deer during both early and late archery seasons. So do a significant number of people i know specifically because of the reduced number of hunters in the bush. Close the archery season you now have increased pressure for everybody. Yes it is my choice of weapon for deer but I am definitely not an elitist. When I go hunting I go with the expectation of killing something which will generally be the first legal animal that presents a shot.

[Gateholio]

Gateholio==To me archery season helps spread out the pressure myself and the guys I hunt with almost exclusively hunt deer during both early and late archery seasons. So do a significant number of people i know specifically because of the reduced number of hunters in the bush. Close the archery season you now have increased pressure for everybody. Yes it is my choice of weapon for deer but I am definitely not an elitist. When I go hunting I go with the expectation of killing something which will generally be the first legal animal that presents a shot.

I would not suggest that someone that takes advantage of a bow season is an "elitist." It's when someone wants to exclude someone else due to their weapon choice that they become an elitist. Like if a longbow hunter feels compound bows should not be allowed, or a compound hunter thinks crossbows should not be allowed, or a crossbow hunter feels long bows should not be allowed.

[Wild one]

No, I'm not making contradictory statements. I feel the exact same way now as I ever did. I am not anti archery at all. People should hunt with whatever they choose, but not at the expense of others opportunity. Weapon choice should not equal extra privileges in my opinion. Obviously since we have had special bow seasons for many years, the government disagrees with me, and that is fine as I am used to disagreeing with government on many subjects.

I don't actually care if you "judge" me. You are just some guy on the internet, like the rest of us. Your opinion of me has no effect on my life whatsoever.

Again, what is really important is what led to the various groups endorsing these proposals. That's the real subject. We have just learned that the WSSoBC voted in favour of this. What other groups did too, and why?

Don’t expect you to care what I think of you and you have never come off as someone who worries about others opinions

As for why so many voted on this is the options given all sucked and none of the above was not a choice

[Gateholio]

As for why so many voted on this is the options given all sucked and none of the above was not a choice

Hopefully we will get the official word from the various organizations on why they are listed as supporting these proposals.

[IronNoggin]

... I would like to see a public announcement from all groups listed on these proposals about why they supported them and if they did not support the proposals, why they are named as supporting them if they actually did not.

Been actively encouraging that all round. Those that bristle at the thought send signals regardless whether they comply or not...


... As for why so many voted on this is the options given all sucked and none of the above was not a choice

And that is a matter of disingenuous and erroneous policy.
Something which WILL be addressed shortly after this whole proposal bullshit itself has been put to rest...

Nog

[Mik]

This is Complete BULL SHIT ! Iron sight's or Scope on Rifles - Pins or Scope on Cross bows or REG Bows - Who gives a SHIT - Theres already too God Dam MANY Rules and Regulations ! I am against the BAN ! RJ

Well said!

[Ganso]

I don't see a problem with a scope on a crossbow. It's still a crossbow in the end. And it's not like bows haven't been developed either. A compound bow greatly extends the range, ease and effectiveness compared to a traditional. But the BCWF doesn't seem to have this problem with compound bows.

On the other hand, I don't like those inline muzzleloaders that are so popular elsewhere, with their scopes and sabot projectiles and pellets of high-pressure "not-black-powder", where it's clearly far closer to a modern rifle than the less effective historical arms their special seasons were supposed to be intended for. And since they are all guns which require the same basic skills, I don't see a reason people would feel the need use them, either, besides simply taking advantage.

But I don't have a problem with the modern archery equipment because it's never going to be a firearm, and there's only so far you can go with an arrow. The popularity of modern bowhunting is a fairly recent thing anyways and modern technology has been there ever since it really took off (first compound bow: 1969).

[dracb]

Earlier in this thread it was mentioned the CO's have issue with the number of cocked crossbows they find in vehicles. Since many old geezers took up crossbows due to some sort of infirmity (commonly a shoulder issue) it is understandable that they would not want to or are afraid to manually let down their crossbow string. I suspect that many if not most of these crossbow hunters are not aware there are bolts specifically made to be fired into the ground, soft stump, foam block or other similar target for the specific purpose of leaving the bowman with an uncocked crossbow read for transport. I only found about these bolts by accident after I had owned and hunted several crossbows. None of the crossbow vendors ever mentioned these bolts to me while I was buying my crossbows. Since I have never seen them used at an archery range or seen them mentioned in videos or magazine articles it is very likely that there are many crossbow hunters who would use them if vendors would bring these bolts to their attention as a very useful accessories.

[IronNoggin]

Hopefully we will get the official word from the various organizations on why they are listed as supporting these proposals.

Well Gate,
(https://bcwf.bc.ca/hunting-and-trapping-regulations-engagement-open/)The response from the BCWF is actually a quite underwhelming:

This, from the Fed's home page, doesn't look much like a rebuttal of the crossbow proposal to me. In fact, it appears somewhat defensive of their actions which leads me to believe they voted in favor of this BS:

"Regulation Proposal: “Prohibit the use of scopes on bows during bow-only seasons”

We have been hearing from members concerned with one of the proposals in the hunting/trapping regulation engagement process regarding the elimination of scopes on bows during bow-only seasons.

The proposal that was discussed at the Provincial Hunting and Trapping Advisory Team’s subcommittee on “hunting methods” was to “regulate electronic, magnifying, or telescopic sights on short range weapons (bows) during special weapon seasons.” Government has chosen to modify the intent of the proposal and to focus on crossbows in their posting on the engagement website and the accompanying rationale.

The BCWF supports the use of archery/bow-only seasons as a means of increasing hunting opportunities. The focus of the hunting methods sub-committee, when discussing this proposal, was to maintain archery-only hunting seasons that include crossbows. The committee is not a decision-making body and only provides advice to government regarding hunting methods.

Government is in the process of reviewing and updating the hunter harvest questionnaire and the BCWF has asked for the government to collect more data on hunting methods, whether it be vertical bows, crossbows or rifles.

The scopes regulation proposal is posted, and input from the public will ultimately influence the outcome.

Here is the link to the proposed regulations regarding crossbows apps.nrs.gov.bc.ca/ahte/content/scopes-bows-during-bow-only-seasons (https://apps.nrs.gov.bc.ca/ahte/content/scopes-bows-during-bow-only-seasons)

Remember, you will need your BCeID number to comment."

bcwf.bc.ca/hunting-and-trapping-regulations-engagement-open/ (https://bcwf.bc.ca/hunting-and-trapping-regulations-engagement-open/)

................................................

I sat on this a few days while I waited for the Fed to get back to me on the matter. After having reached out to the Fed (again) I sadly got nothing but crickets in return. From the above, and their lack of response (weeks) it appears that they are fine with this, and so have lost any chance of my support at this time whatsoever.

The government continues it's shenanigans on all proposals. you can vote and comment, but you cannot see, nor alter your own comment, nor anyone else's. Many believe this is being done so they can say the majority of the public sided in favor of their suggestions, when in fact that may well not be the case. Getting tired of all the ass-covering going on here...

Regards - Matt

[Harvest the Land]

Nog, could not believe how weak of a response this news release is! So i called up the head office and spoke with a lady for a good 20 minutes to vent about how ridiculous this is. She agreed with my concerns, and will be passing them along to the executive, and will talk to them about putting out a more clear message about how the BCWF is AGAINST this asinine proposal.

I too was greatly disappointed in how the news release says absolutely nothing about whether the BCWF is for or against this proposal, and she agreed that the news release should have been more clear on what the BCWF stance is on this proposal. Like I couldn't believe the release did not specifically say that the BCWF is vehemently against this. Very disappointed. I haven't cancelled my monthly donation just yet, and will wait to see if the BCWF will be more clear about how they oppose this idea. But make no mistake, if they aren't more clear in voicing their opposition to this, I will be cancelling for sure. I'm simply Gobsmacked at how weak this news release is. Please Do Better BCWF!!

[Brew]

This is the WSSBC explanation and stance on the subject. My apologies, I cut and pasted it to the site.
Seems the gov gave the committee four choices to choose as they already made up their mind on the subject and the committee picked the best option of the four offered.

The Wild Sheep Society of British Columbia (WSSBC) is a conservation-mandated Society founded in
1998 for the protection and enhancement of wild sheep throughout the province.
As a stakeholder in wildlife in the Province of BC, we hold a position on the Provincial Hunting Trapping
and Advisory Team and have done so for several years. A brief history of PHTAT can be found HERE.
The PHTAT consists of membership from the Wild Sheep Society of BC, British Columbia Wildlife
Federation, BC Trappers Association, Guide Outfitters Association of BC, United Bowhunters of BC and
the Wildlife Stewardship Council.
Our seat on PHTAT allows us to see drafts that are put forward by the province, and other stake and title
holders from around the table. Proposals can be made from local member clubs, single membership as
well as organizations, and the government.
Recently WSSBC, through our PHTAT membership, had representation on a Fair Chase sub-committee.
Numerous proposals were put forward by ministry staff and through the committee process members
are solicited to provide input on the proposals.
These new proposals are currently open for public consultation at:
https://apps.nrs.gov.bc.ca/ahte/hunting
Some members have raised concerns about our participation on this committee and our stance on the
proposals put forward. One of these issues brought forward is pertaining to a regulation proposal to
ban scope use on bows during bow only season. This regulation change was proposed by the
government as a solution to high success rates in moose bow only seasons. When offered solutions; the
sub-committee supported the least restrictive option, from an opportunity perspective, which allowed
cross-bow use (albeit without a scope) during the bow only season.
While we did participate in the process as a PHTAT member, it is important to note that we as an
organization are not advocating for any of these “Fair Chase” changes. These proposals were introduced
by government and received input by a diverse committee including multiple stakeholders and
government.
The Wild Sheep Society does not designate a formal stance on any of the ‘Fair Chase’ proposals as they do not pertain as a conservation concern. We believe in science-based wildlife management relying on
biologists and experts. Conservation concerns are at the forefront of our decision making.


Please remember that none of these proposals are in legislation as of yet and are simply at the input stage. Feedback during the public consultation process will influence which proposals will become legislation.
The Province is soliciting input from the public on these proposals, and we encourage everyone,
particularly our members to have their say. To leave input, please follow the following LINK and sign in
with your BCiD as you would with your hunting license and LEH.
Please be respectful, polite and courteous with your response. It is critical that every one of us have our
say.
In Conservation, Board of Directors
Wild Sheep Society of British Columbia

[Walking Buffalo]

Thanks Brew and Nog.

What's with these weak statements and likely weak positions?

The WSSBC could say "NO, we Oppose the proposal" instead of a statement that is uncommittable.

What I read between the lines is that BCWF is supporting the crossbow scope ban. They certainly have not stated otherwise.

The WSSBC is trying to goat walk a fencetop. Sheep can't do this as well as goats. They will fall off to one side.
They as well do not state that they oppose the proposal.... that says a lot.

What I see here is stakeholder reps that want to blame the government, while cowering from their membership.
Weak, weak, weak....


Nog, Any progress with those minutes?
I suspect you will be slow played, they will run out the clock.

[btridge]

What has become obvious to me is that once again, hunters have been let down by the organizations that the government says represent them.

[Onesock]

What I see in this is the GO in the stated region must have had a resident bow hunter shoot a moose that the GO had decided was his moose. So now all resident hunters pay the price for a GO whining and ass kissing. The GO have made a good story up saying optics shouldnt be allowed in bow only seasons. This is such a pile of shit. Especially when there are month long doe seasons for whitetails and all xbow hunters pay the price! Pissed!!

[Jagermeister]

I have a long history in archery. My dad bought me a fiberglass long bow when I was 11. Remember the Port Orford cedar arrows? Got pretty good at building them as I lost them most often as soon as they were built. Anyhow, I morphed from the long bow to the recurve which I continued to shoot until about 1976 when bursitis made it difficult to hold the 45# draw weight. Allen still held patent on the compound bow and they were noisy contraptions with little let-off. After Allen's patent expired, other bow makers stepped to the plate, PSE, Bear, Browning to name a few. I soon bought a PSE and was back in the game. With 65% let-off, I could hold on a 70# but at times it was agonizing. Then I bought another PSE with 60# and 85% let-off. This was around 2000 and I had it until a couple of years ago. Bursitis was once again playing hell with the shoulders and I could not draw the bow let alone hold it. So I replaced it with a crossbow a year ago this month. Now they're going to exclude me because of my choice because it has optics. How else are you supposed to aim them, there is no other method of mounting sights. Regardless, should this regulation become the way, I shall file a discrimination charge against the government and the advising participants.
As I said elsewhere, " ALL THIS REGULATION DOES IS FURTHER EXCLUDE SENIOR ARCHERY HUNTERS SUCH AS MYSELF FROM PARTAKING IN THE QUIET VENUE OF THE ARCHERY SEASON."

[338win mag]

The position these "hunter organizations" take is a summary of what has been happening to resident hunters recently, there shouldn't be any question who is representing them (resident hunters). I'm not supporting any of them until I see someone with some balls to stand up and fight, even if they lose this fight.
I consider someone who "walks the fence" as an act of cowardice and God hates a coward and so do I.

[Muliechaser]

I have a long history in archery. My dad bought me a fiberglass long bow when I was 11. Remember the Port Orford cedar arrows? Got pretty good at building them as I lost them most often as soon as they were built. Anyhow, I morphed from the long bow to the recurve which I continued to shoot until about 1976 when bursitis made it difficult to hold the 45# draw weight. Allen still held patent on the compound bow and they were noisy contraptions with little let-off. After Allen's patent expired, other bow makers stepped to the plate, PSE, Bear, Browning to name a few. I soon bought a PSE and was back in the game. With 65% let-off, I could hold on a 70# but at times it was agonizing. Then I bought another PSE with 60# and 85% let-off. This was around 2000 and I had it until a couple of years ago. Bursitis was once again playing hell with the shoulders and I could not draw the bow let alone hold it. So I replaced it with a crossbow a year ago this month. Now they're going to exclude me because of my choice because it has optics. How else are you supposed to aim them, there is no other method of mounting sights. Regardless, should this regulation become the way, I shall file a discrimination charge against the government and the advising participants.
As I said elsewhere, " ALL THIS REGULATION DOES IS FURTHER EXCLUDE SENIOR ARCHERY HUNTERS SUCH AS MYSELF FROM PARTAKING IN THE QUIET VENUE OF THE ARCHERY SEASON."

I am not for the scope ban on xbows . BUT if it does become a regulation there are open sights for xbows . Not all will be lost . It doesnt mean that cross bows wont be able to be used .

[Jagermeister]

There’s a growing number of resident hunters that do not recognize them as their voice.
The need to be kicked away from any table that deals with hunting and wildlife regulation making.
We may as well have the WDL or Raincoast sitting in as our rep.....in fact we’d be better off.
At least we’d know our opponents are going to screw us over....we have a hard time admitting we’re gonna get it from our own “team”.
You mean, like, the GOABC and the rest of the cronies that make up the Wildlife Stewardship Council? I'd hardly call them a friend of the resident hunter, would you? Fat chance anyone's voice could be heard above the clamor of that parliament of magpies.
BearValley, you have a seat at the table, so who proposed the "cross"bow scope ban and who supported it?

[BimmerBob]

I have tried to listen to all the statements on this proposal and remain as an observer however I must say that this ban is very discriminatory of those with eyesight issues, especially the older among us.

Scopes allow those of us with eyesight issues (near sighted/far sighted) to see the sight plane clearly and to see the target clearly. For years I have not been able to utilize open sights as accurately as I once could because I can not see both the rear and front sight clearly when I focus on the target so I think there may have to be an option for us "sight impaired" folks that let us utilize scopes for hunting with a crossbow and if there isn't I could see this going through the courts as an age discrimination issue or discriminating against the handicapped issue.

It seems to me that people keep focusing on restricting hunter access by reducing the ways to hunt instead of focusing on game availability by increasing the game populations. The failures in the game management area by the folks responsible for it, keep getting solved in the hunter management area and the game species continue to suffer for it, time to focus on areas of responsibility and hold those responsible for it to account.

Just my thoughts on this issue, hope they help.

Cheers, Bob

[J_T]

so who proposed the "cross"bow scope ban and who supported it? Government proposed it. Without any discussion specific to a scope restriction, as far as I can tell. The objective was to not lose archery seasons, maintain the 'short range' concept of the BOS and I don't think anyone wanted to alienate the crossbow user. There are alternatives to scopes (mountable pin sights) which maintain the short range concept of why there are archery seasons. Finding a solution was Government's decision to make. It came upon everyone around the table quickly, there was very little time to discuss it. So put it out to public engagement and see what the responses are. I think we know what the responses are.

[Onesock]

Jt question? Where did you see the sights available for xbows? Ive been looking on google and can only find one manufacturer and they are a couple hundred bucks. I dont think its just a matter getting xbows sights.

[Brew]

I believe this comes right from Horgan and that idiot Donaldson our environment minister. They are the ones who propose this stuff to justify their jobs. They put forth the proposal with only four alternatives to choose from. (All four which only work in their favour) then the gov posts it like the BCWF Wssbc etc were all in favour to take the blame and pressure away from the government and to cause divisions in our community of outdoorsman.
donaldson is useless. His whole forest revitalization plan is a crock of shit as well.

[limit time]

You mean, like, the GOABC and the rest of the cronies that make up the Wildlife Stewardship Council? I'd hardly call them a friend of the resident hunter, would you? Fat chance anyone's voice could be heard above the clamor of that parliament of magpies.
BearValley, you have a seat at the table, so who proposed the "cross"bow scope ban and who supported it?
I second this question.

[IronNoggin]

... Nog, Any progress with those minutes?
I suspect you will be slow played, they will run out the clock.

That is pretty much a certainty IMO.
However, regardless of when we get them, there will be some telling information about each and every rep sitting at the table.
My info to date strongly suggests the government, and certain outfitters (along with their region's club) ain't no friend of mine!


... Regardless, should this regulation become the way, I shall file a discrimination charge against the government and the advising participants...

We are already gearing up for that.

According to CHRADA (Canadian Human Rights And Disability Act), any action that restricts a person with a disability (vision problems is a disability) from being able to participate in an activity enjoyed by an able bodied person, shall be deemed "DISCRIMINATORY" or discrimination.

https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/h-6/

Nog

[Bugle M In]

That is pretty much a certainty IMO.
However, regardless of when we get them, there will be some telling information about each and every rep sitting at the table.
My info to date strongly suggests the government, and certain outfitters (along with their region's club) ain't no friend of mine!



That's pretty much what I have as well.

[papaken]

Quit supporting BCWF they are not our friends! I was a BCWF member for many, many years but will not give them anything now. Won't even buy their raffle tickets. To me supporting banning certain forms of hunting is not right and anti-hunter! They have just given the antis a huge boost by again pitting hunters against each other. If I was still a member this would be the last straw. All hunters should quit this pathetic organization.

[papaken]

I too would like to know the names and organizations that supported this? I joined the SCI West Coast last year and recently was sent an email to forward to the committee stating that we do not support this proposal! I plan to re-new my membership with SCI West Coast for a further 3 years this year!

[papaken]

And to think only a few weeks ago many on here condemned & accused Foxton Gundogs of sensationalizing the proposed "secret" crossbow ban now who has egg on their face!!!!!!!

Neither the BCWF, BC Outdoors or other groups promoted on this site and elsewhere as supposedly representing hunters rights or being hunter friendly actually do represent them at all. Simply follow the money trail and it will eventually lead to some at best dubious partnerships.

I have personally spoken on here with people who claim to be hunters yet still support more firearm control and to all I say wake up, when we allow & create division in our own ranks it only helps the various groups who want to destroy our way of life. These issues are not only directly related to firearms and hunting but encompass things such as tail docking in dogs which now prevents many responsible & ethical breeders from breeding dogs and over the next few years the blood lines that they have striven so hard to create in Canada will die out.

And as for anyone supporting firearm control what do you think will happen to the gun stores or the price of ammunition when they can no longer sell hand guns or the ammunition for them?

Do not forget about your friends who work in these stores and who have done so for years and who give good, sound, reliable advice on a daily basis for free.

Unless ALL HUNTERS, FISHERMAN, FARMERS, OUTDOORS PEOPLE, OUTFITTERS, GUIDES, DOG TRAINERS, OUDOOR STORES ETC. stick together & stop all the infighting their will be nothing left.

And finally to all the First Nations out there who frequent this site you too need to be united in this fight with the aforementioned because make no mistake once the resident hunters are extinct, all guns will be gone, your usefulness will come to an end and you will be next with no one left to fight for you. First rule of war "Divide & Conquer"
Totally Agree!1

[papaken]

They are not really hunter friendly and continually support dissension in the hunting community. If they are for "No scopes on crossbows" they are just another anti hunter organization. PS I do not currently hunt with a crossbow but still want the availability to do so if I wish to in the future. I do know people that do and use scopes to make clean ethical shots.

[papaken]

why don`t they banscopes on rifles
That very well could be next!

[papaken]

There’s a growing number of resident hunters that do not recognize them as their voice.
The need to be kicked away from any table that deals with hunting and wildlife regulation making.
We may as well have the WDL or Raincoast sitting in as our rep.....in fact we’d be better off.
At least we’d know our opponents are going to screw us over....we have a hard time admitting we’re gonna get it from our own “team”.
If I am not mistaken BCWF has worked with Raincoast and the ultimate eco-opportunist David Suzuki. When I heard they had been working with them that is when I quit!

[Spy]

How do they still have any members????? Any clubs still involved with them should dump them....

[TDHunter]

They probably support it because they are now one of the leading factors to the loss of some of our hunting opportunities. 6 is loosing its prime archery moose season because of crossbows. I'm sure it's been said already but technology as a whole is probably the real culprit because my brother had a crossbow 30 years ago but it was junk. Now you can shoot 100 yard tight groups with them. Of course you can with a a compound as well but it takes a tone of practice to accomplish the same. Archery seasons used to be low pressure, low harvest rate that's just not the case anymore. My neighbors group kills a handful of moose every year with crossbows, he's gone 6 years in a row harvesting during the rut season, now that season is on the block.

[Jagermeister]

They probably support it because they are now one of the leading factors to the loss of some of our hunting opportunities. 6 is loosing its prime archery moose season because of crossbows. I'm sure it's been said already but technology as a whole is probably the real culprit because my brother had a crossbow 30 years ago but it was junk. Now you can shoot 100 yard tight groups with them. Of course you can with a a compound as well but it takes a tone of practice to accomplish the same. Archery seasons used to be low pressure, low harvest rate that's just not the case anymore. My neighbors group kills a handful of moose every year with crossbows, he's a gone 6 years in a row harvesting during the rut season, now that season is on the block.
“6 is loosing its prime archery moose season because of crossbows. “Because of crossbows? You jest, right? Your neighbor’s group kills a handful of moose every year for the past 6 years, all with crossbows? I’m calling bullshit on this Elmer. Your neighbor must be a guide/outfitter and I’m thinking you must have the guide/outfitters confused with resident hunters. The G/O’s want the archery season gone because it’s competition for them and their clients. The archery season puts resident hunters in the field early, before rifle season and this probably has resulted in a moose or two taken from right under their noses. Say, maybe you’re a guide/outfitter or work for one, what say?

[huntingfamily]

They probably support it because they are now one of the leading factors to the loss of some of our hunting opportunities. 6 is loosing its prime archery moose season because of crossbows. I'm sure it's been said already but technology as a whole is probably the real culprit because my brother had a crossbow 30 years ago but it was junk. Now you can shoot 100 yard tight groups with them. Of course you can with a a compound as well but it takes a tone of practice to accomplish the same. Archery seasons used to be low pressure, low harvest rate that's just not the case anymore. My neighbors group kills a handful of moose every year with crossbows, he's gone 6 years in a row harvesting during the rut season, now that season is on the block.

Well there ya go.
The dumbest ****ing post I've ever read.
So much to say, but I'd better bite my tongue...

[digger dogger]

I’m all done with the bcwf.
To bad they poked a sleeping bear.
I’d think memberships are way down, seeing as they continually seem to shit the bed, the last few years.

[Walking Buffalo]

TD sounds like a traditional archer that is looking for an easy scapegoat.
Almost, but not quite willing to throw compound archers under the bus.
-----

Why is it so hard to get ALL the stakeholders to account for their position?
I just don't get it....

[Ovis17]

Good question........

[IronNoggin]

They probably support it because they are now one of the leading factors to the loss of some of our hunting opportunities. 6 is loosing its prime archery moose season because of crossbows. I'm sure it's been said already but technology as a whole is probably the real culprit because my brother had a crossbow 30 years ago but it was junk. Now you can shoot 100 yard tight groups with them. Of course you can with a a compound as well but it takes a tone of practice to accomplish the same. Archery seasons used to be low pressure, low harvest rate that's just not the case anymore. My neighbors group kills a handful of moose every year with crossbows, he's gone 6 years in a row harvesting during the rut season, now that season is on the block.

Now there's a pile of horseshit for you!
Even if there is a tiny bit of truth to what you spew, why in the hell should that have ANY bearing on province wide regulations?

And I will take up your challenge regarding crossbow accuracy.
You run my current high end crossbow, and we'll just see how tight of groups you can manage at 100 yards.
Then my partner will show you his capabilities with his compound at the same distance.
Methinks an education will be in short order...

The current SCI stance I posted recently is headed in the right direction.
This misguided fool certainly is NOT.

Nog

[Jagermeister]

You have to excuse TD Hunter guys. He has only posted 12 times since joining in 2011.

[limit time]

Now there's a pile of horseshit for you!
Even if there is a tiny bit of truth to what you spew, why in the hell should that have ANY bearing on province wide regulations?

And I will take up your challenge regarding crossbow accuracy.
You run my current high end crossbow, and we'll just see how tight of groups you can manage at 100 yards.
Then my partner will show you his capabilities with his compound at the same distance.
Methinks an education will be in short order...

The current SCI stance I posted recently is headed in the right direction.
This misguided fool certainly is NOT.

Nog

So.... can buy a ticket for this or what ?

[TDHunter]

Lol .....people can't really be this dumb can they? Ill play One more time for a chuckle, first I hunt with trad gear and an Excalibur Matrix 380 . My kids can drive bolts into a a cantaloupe at 60 yards using a rest with my 380, so they are very accurate. Someone wants to suggest a compound bow can do the same .....sure someone who practices can, and I could when I shot compound. But I guarantee you if you put two rifle hunters who have never done any kind of archery together and one shoots a high-end crossbow and the other shoots a compound bow for the first time I'll put all my money on the crossbow every time.

I'm not against crossbows, I love mine. But if you think that hundreds or thousands of rifle hunters buying crossbows so they can extend their season won't have a dramatic increase to the harvest rate of moose you would be a moron. it's not algebra it's addition 1+1


When chatting with the local COs and asking about losing our archery moose season , they said and I quote "too many crossbows " they also commented that the Moose harvest in region six during that particular moose season was taking the total harvest of moose for that year . Now maybe they should just said too much pressure equalling too much harvest .

And to the dipship who commented maybe I'm a guide, well.....your a a dipshit. I hope BC will go the way of SK and have a lot of our big game species go resident only.

Enjoy

[tuner]

^^^^ I think the CO should be more concerned with wolves than crossbows,
the success rate is incomparable.

[Foxton Gundogs]

So what if you use a scoped crossbow to kill wolves. IDK

[Jagermeister]

Lol .....people can't really be this dumb can they? Ill play One more time for a chuckle, first I hunt with trad gear and an Excalibur Matrix 380 . My kids can drive bolts into a a cantaloupe at 60 yards using a rest with my 380, so they are very accurate. Someone wants to suggest a compound bow can do the same .....sure someone who practices can, and I could when I shot compound. But I guarantee you if you put two rifle hunters who have never done any kind of archery together and one shoots a high-end crossbow and the other shoots a compound bow for the first time I'll put all my money on the crossbow every time.

I'm not against crossbows, I love mine. But if you think that hundreds or thousands of rifle hunters buying crossbows so they can extend their season won't have a dramatic increase to the harvest rate of moose you would be a moron. it's not algebra it's addition 1+1


When chatting with the local COs and asking about losing our archery moose season , they said and I quote "too many crossbows " they also commented that the Moose harvest in region six during that particular moose season was taking the total harvest of moose for that year . Now maybe they should just said too much pressure equalling too much harvest .

And to the dipship who commented maybe I'm a guide, well.....your a a dipshit. I hope BC will go the way of SK and have a lot of our big game species go resident only.

Enjoy
"But if you think that hundreds or thousands of rifle hunters buying crossbows so they can extend their season won't have a dramatic increase to the harvest rate of moose you would be a moron. it's not algebra it's addition 1+1 "
Now that's a moronic statement. And then how about this one?
"My neighbors group kills a handful of moose every year with crossbows, he's a gone 6 years in a row harvesting during the rut season, now that season is on the block."
So what you are saying here is that your neighbor is a better hunter with a crossbow than you are with trad, crossbow or rifle.
If you believe thousands of rifle hunters are going to whimsically go out and buy a crossbow, "you would be a moron "
Lets look at the bow only season for moose starting with Region 6
Bow Only Season
6-1 to 6-11, 6-15, 6-30 Bulls Sept 1 - Sept 9 (9 days)
6-1 to 6-11, 6-15, 6-30 Bulls Oct 1 - Oct 8 (8 days)
6-1 to 6-11, 6-15, 6-30 Bulls Nov 16 - Nov 20 (5 days)
TOTAL (22 DAYS)
And let's not forget 450 LEH Authorizations for WMU 6-09 out of the 777 moose authorization for the entire region.

Region 7A Bow only season.
7-2 to 7-15 Spike-fork Bulls Sept 1 - Sept 9 (9 days)
TOTAL (9 DAYS)
Region 5 Bow only season
Region 5 does not have a GOS for moose let alone a Bow only season!

Region 8 Bow only season
Region 8 has a 15 day GOS for moose but no Bow only season

Region 3 Bow only season
Region 3 does have a variable GOS for spike fork horn but does not have a Bow season.

Region 4 Bow only season
4-7 to 4-9, 4-14 to 4-18, 4-27 to 4-33, 4-36 to 4-40 Spike-fork Bulls Sept 1 - Sept 19 (19 days)
4-1 to 4-6, 4-19 to 4-26, 4-34, 4-35 Spike-fork Bulls Sept 1 - Oct 14 (the total number of days in these zones are inclusive with the above zones and are not added opportunities)
TOTAL (19 days)

It would be a moron not to recognize that Region 6 has a very liberal bow only season for moose and it would be a moron who would suggest or endorse any change to current conditions.

[huntingfamily]

TDHunter said, "When chatting with the local COs and asking about losing our archery moose season , they said and I quote "too many crossbows"..."

I call BS. If what you say is true, who was the CO or CO's that said this?
I'd like to make a couple phone calls.

[Walking Buffalo]

Lol .....people can't really be this dumb can they? Ill play One more time for a chuckle, first I hunt with trad gear and an Excalibur Matrix 380 . My kids can drive bolts into a a cantaloupe at 60 yards using a rest with my 380, so they are very accurate. Someone wants to suggest a compound bow can do the same .....sure someone who practices can, and I could when I shot compound. But I guarantee you if you put two rifle hunters who have never done any kind of archery together and one shoots a high-end crossbow and the other shoots a compound bow for the first time I'll put all my money on the crossbow every time.

I'm not against crossbows, I love mine. But if you think that hundreds or thousands of rifle hunters buying crossbows so they can extend their season won't have a dramatic increase to the harvest rate of moose you would be a moron. it's not algebra it's addition 1+1


When chatting with the local COs and asking about losing our archery moose season , they said and I quote "too many crossbows " they also commented that the Moose harvest in region six during that particular moose season was taking the total harvest of moose for that year . Now maybe they should just said too much pressure equalling too much harvest .

And to the dipship who commented maybe I'm a guide, well.....your a a dipshit. I hope BC will go the way of SK and have a lot of our big game species go resident only.

Enjoy


Ok, lets follow your direction.

Let's say the proposed solution to reducing harvest is to not use season lengths etc., but to eliminate certain technology.
That's fine.

Let's suppose that despite the elimination of scoped crossbows, the conservation concern continues.
What now? Eliminate compound bows?
And if that doesn't work?

In Alberta, we do not allow crossbows in the Archery season except for hard to qualify for Handicapped permits.
There was a perceived overharvest of Mule deer in the archery general season.
The Alberta Bowhunting Association President made a similar statement that there were "too many Bowhunters".
He supported going to draw (LEH) season as a solution to eliminating less serious bowhunters....

Rifle hunters using crossbows.... You hope BC eliminates NR hunters....

It's hard to view your posts as just being selfish.... :roll:

[Bugle M In]

Things and technology change, lets be honest there.
When Bow season started, it was considered a "short range" weapon.
(Note: short range).
And giving an earlier start to those folks makes sense, although yes, once they have traipsed in the woods for a week bugling/calling etc, the jig is up and the game knows hunting season is on, which then makes GOS season a little harder when I it starts, but that's not a bad thing (remember, we are hunting, not out killing).
(besides the point, but some argue that so worth mentioning).

And the "give 2 rifle hunters a bow or Xbow", and which will they shoot better, I agree, Xbow hands down! (that's the truth).
Thing is, XBow is not a "short range weapon" any longer.
The FPS rates make this weapon just as effective as a 30/30 (maybe even better??).
So, that's were the "grey/gray area" is, in regards to their use on Bow only.
(Only have to look at Alberta to see how they look at it, and that's another fair point, imo)
Disability, good to go (that is allowed in Alberta, but I think some folks take their disability to the umpteenth degree to say why
they need a disability permit...seen it here in BC on other matters)

Lots of hunters have XBows now, that never owned vertical bows not ever would have gone vertical bow if Xbows weren't allowed in BOS.
IS it to "extend their season"????
I don't know, I suppose that is just a "spin-off".
I think most get them to hunt in a "timeframe" that they feel gives them a better chance to harvest their quarry.
Also, quite often the "restriction on antler size" is lower as well, which helps increase the chances of success.
So, less antler restriction and using a "Medium Range Weapon" are the 2 big factors.
(I know it is something I contemplate every August before the season begins, but haven't done so as of yet.)

So, are there more hunters out there during BOS due to XBow….for sure, imo.
Is there some increased success due to more hunters, yes, if the game is around, and is there more success given the
extended range....more than likely, imo.

2 points not brought up, not often enough:
For the CO's, the nightmare is more about game being poached "inside city/town limits".
Yes, a vertical bow is equivalent, but agin, extended range and the fact that there are many folks with XBows adds to this issue.
So, we have to understand the CO's perspective on that.

The other point is, some GO's do not like having hunters in their territory before they are in there with their clients.
(Lets face it, some GO's are great, but we also have another camp who hate anybody but themselves hunting and that will never
change.
Hunting alone can bring on a "competitive nature" for some, and throw in money....well, enough said).

And sure, there are some die-hard traditionalists in the Bow World who hate XBows in their BOS season.
(But, when it comes to this Ban, they didn't play a role in it, even if they feel it will benefit them)

[IronNoggin]

... Thing is, XBow is not a "short range weapon" any longer.
The FPS rates make this weapon just as effective as a 30/30 (maybe even better??).


Total horseshit again.
For many it seems basing their perceptions of the effective range of modern crossbows can be verified by the outlandish claims of one manufacturer, who with the employ of a professional shooter, manages to put three in the x ring at 100 yards.

Are all bows capable of that? Certainly not.
Are all shooters capable of that? Certainly not.
Are experienced compound bow shooters capable of the same? Most certainly.

Stop using this as your excuse.
There is extremely little difference between the effective ranges of crossbows and modern compound bows in the right hands.
Period.

As for these CO's, guides, or even fools like TD above suggesting huge increases in harvest levels due to crossbow use: Show me the study, and show me the results thereof. Oh, you can't, because that simply does not exit. So instead, we'll go with the "I think that..." routine to manage hunting restrictions? Huh? And then we will go so far as to make such restrictions province wide based on SUPPOSITION coming from one single region? WTF??

Ludicrous! http://www.outdoorsmenforum.ca/images/smilies/snapoutofit.gif

I hope I don't have to actually launch a legal challenge to this bullshit, but mark my words if they impose it, I most certainly will...

Ticked,
Nog

[Piperdown]

Hey Matt you have been an avid xbow hunter for longer than most of us, tell these fine folks how many bull moose you have tipped over. I have tipped over a grand total of 2, and believe me both were shithouse lucky. This year i know of one that was harvested in the bow season in 6-04, yes only one and the area i hunt is from Burns to Ootsa lake and beyond. The CO there hunts with an xbow and to my knowledge has never tipped one over himself. As for the cocked xbows in a vehicle this is totally laughable, this same CO bitches all the time about the number of tickets he writes for loaded firearms, so with this skewed logic maybe time to ban firearms too. Where is TD's response about the CO, i call bullshit on that too, give it up so we can all call him and get the goods.

[303savage]

Why the ban on scopes on a crossbow be banned? I wouk=ld think that anything that enhances accuracy would be a good thing. Or is the ban just for bow only season?

[IronNoggin]

Hey Matt you have been an avid xbow hunter for longer than most of us, tell these fine folks how many bull moose you have tipped over...

Yes I have. And gone through many bows to find the one I'll likely keep forever.

As for moose, that would be a grand total of ZERO.

There are methods to make government employees feel mighty uncomfortable utilizing legal tools at our disposal.
I am lining up on several as we speak.
And I am indeed lining up on the Ministry and BC government as well. Legal Beagle is licking his chops...
Say When...

Nog

[btridge]

Things and technology change, lets be honest there.
When Bow season started, it was considered a "short range" weapon.
(Note: short range).
And giving an earlier start to those folks makes sense, although yes, once they have traipsed in the woods for a week bugling/calling etc, the jig is up and the game knows hunting season is on, which then makes GOS season a little harder when I it starts, but that's not a bad thing (remember, we are hunting, not out killing).
(besides the point, but some argue that so worth mentioning).

And the "give 2 rifle hunters a bow or Xbow", and which will they shoot better, I agree, Xbow hands down! (that's the truth).
Thing is, XBow is not a "short range weapon" any longer.
The FPS rates make this weapon just as effective as a 30/30 (maybe even better??).
So, that's were the "grey/gray area" is, in regards to their use on Bow only.
(Only have to look at Alberta to see how they look at it, and that's another fair point, imo)
Disability, good to go (that is allowed in Alberta, but I think some folks take their disability to the umpteenth degree to say why
they need a disability permit...seen it here in BC on other matters)

Lots of hunters have XBows now, that never owned vertical bows not ever would have gone vertical bow if Xbows weren't allowed in BOS.
IS it to "extend their season"????
I don't know, I suppose that is just a "spin-off".
I think most get them to hunt in a "timeframe" that they feel gives them a better chance to harvest their quarry.
Also, quite often the "restriction on antler size" is lower as well, which helps increase the chances of success.
So, less antler restriction and using a "Medium Range Weapon" are the 2 big factors.
(I know it is something I contemplate every August before the season begins, but haven't done so as of yet.)

So, are there more hunters out there during BOS due to XBow….for sure, imo.
Is there some increased success due to more hunters, yes, if the game is around, and is there more success given the
extended range....more than likely, imo.

2 points not brought up, not often enough:
For the CO's, the nightmare is more about game being poached "inside city/town limits".
Yes, a vertical bow is equivalent, but agin, extended range and the fact that there are many folks with XBows adds to this issue.
So, we have to understand the CO's perspective on that.

The other point is, some GO's do not like having hunters in their territory before they are in there with their clients.
(Lets face it, some GO's are great, but we also have another camp who hate anybody but themselves hunting and that will never
change.
Hunting alone can bring on a "competitive nature" for some, and throw in money....well, enough said).

And sure, there are some die-hard traditionalists in the Bow World who hate XBows in their BOS season.
(But, when it comes to this Ban, they didn't play a role in it, even if they feel it will benefit them)

For someone that has over 5000 posts, it is painfully obvious that you NO NOTHING ABOUT BOW HUNTING!
for someone to claim that a crossbow is in ANY way as effective or (maybe even better) than a 30/30, is so uninformed as to be ignorant of the realities of hunting with a crossbow, or a 30/30. To voice your so miss informed opinion as a long time member of the hunting community, does a great disservice to all hunters.

I have hunted with recurve, compound and crossbow. I hunt with a partner that uses one of the latest long range crossbows. trying to put a killing shot into a screaming bull elk is totally different than target shooting, we had 2 bulls inside 60 yards broadside. that high price crossbow didn't get the job done. I had another big bull standing broadside at 48 yards, had my 50 yard pin on him without rangeing. I questioned in my mind the range, so I took out my range finder to confirm, the bull took a step forward leaving no shot at his vitals so I had to pass. Later in the hunt, another partner had a shot at a little over 60 yards. He killed that bull, he was useing a COMPOUND BOW.
As for poaching with a crossbow, IT'S POACHING, not hunting and as such, hunters should not be held to account for poachers. same logic as banning guns to get them out of the hands of criminals! A poacher IS a criminal.

[Bugle M In]

For someone that has over 5000 posts, it is painfully obvious that you NO NOTHING ABOUT BOW HUNTING!
for someone to claim that a crossbow is in ANY way as effective or (maybe even better) than a 30/30, is so uninformed as to be ignorant of the realities of hunting with a crossbow, or a 30/30. To voice your so miss informed opinion as a long time member of the hunting community, does a great disservice to all hunters.

I have hunted with recurve, compound and crossbow. I hunt with a partner that uses one of the latest long range crossbows. trying to put a killing shot into a screaming bull elk is totally different than target shooting, we had 2 bulls inside 60 yards broadside. that high price crossbow didn't get the job done. I had another big bull standing broadside at 48 yards, had my 50 yard pin on him without rangeing. I questioned in my mind the range, so I took out my range finder to confirm, the bull took a step forward leaving no shot at his vitals so I had to pass. Later in the hunt, another partner had a shot at a little over 60 yards. He killed that bull, he was useing a COMPOUND BOW.
As for poaching with a crossbow, IT'S POACHING, not hunting and as such, hunters should not be held to account for poachers. same logic as banning guns to get them out of the hands of criminals! A poacher IS a criminal.

First of all...relax!

I have some experience.
Especially when my father in law and his best friend, is one of the best in BC! at shoots.
So, I get well informed info.

My comments I think are misconstrued by you.

I wasn't talking so much about my opinion on this matter, as much as I was discussing the "different perspectives" that were
"coming to the table" in regards to the ban and also "most hunters" (yes, not overly informed on Xbows or any bows for that
matter!) and what runs in their minds.

A lot of folks have XBows (usually rifle hunters).
Some due to physical disability but always wanted to use a bow!
BUT, there are many who have Xbows because it offers them better opportunity and potentially success at a "better time of season"! (and that's all...if they could take the rifle they would!)

Most purists of the bow would say XBows are medium range weapons, not just short range.
And yes, a compound can be handle just as well by someone who knows what he or she is doing!

BUT, heres the thing...too many folks out there think "they can do it"!
Meaning taking shots out to a distance that are far beyond their capabilities.
(Not the Bows or XBows!).

The "truth sucks" at times...I get that, and usually people who get upset like your post know more about the truth then most
take time to consider.
Truth is, most people don't take near enough time to "practice"!
Whether a rifle or a bow!
Probably 75% of hunters don't take enough time and practice, but if they see a moose out at 500 -600, will take the shot.
Same goes for bows and xbows!

Yes, all weapons, even the 30/30, can "get r done"! (to think I am stupid on that fact tells me something right there about you!)
And yes, Xbows and Verticals can as well.
Rifles can punch out to 1000 etc.
All capable of killing, and EVERYONE knows that!
And actually, that is the issue!
Everyone knows what these weapons are capable of.....but, few take the time to truly use it to their max.

As far as in town city limits "poaching" as you say.
Of course it is "not hunting"! and of course it is poaching...duhhhhhhhh!
All I implying in my post is "what the CO's see"!
Why it was brought up at the table in R6!
Just giving the reasons to some as to "why we got here" (scope ban!)

Yes, it makes no sense how this proposal hit the table!
And even many at the table were scratching their heads how it happened.
(Sort of why Ironnoggin was digging in deep to see who did/said what!??)

There are always 2 or 3 sides to an argument.
I was bringing up the reasons why some who we don't hear about on HBC wanted to do something about Xbows.
And you know what, as much as I support hunters (as you say, over 5000 posts, I am sure it will only take a post or 2 to see
I am pro hunters and stand behind everyone here), we do have some "asshats" in the crowd.
Just like everything ….everywhere you go!.

And there are folks amongst us, they can be great folks, but can do stupid stuff.
Some tend to push the limits of what is in their hands when they hunt.
(I have made that mistake myself when I was young).
The weapons can do the job....but can the person behind it actually do it ???
Do they do much to ensure they can?

Whats the point of talking about anything, if we "cant be honest"!
If we cant look at ourselves and see where we go wrong.
We aren't perfect and is really stupid to think we are.

Do I support the XBow ban or a scope ban...f*** no.
Get more CO's for the poaching crap.
Start working on getting funding and the balls in the air to rectify some of our habitat issues (although I don't know how you fix overlogging??? but wait 40 years???).

And also, with that R6 issue, was the Moose harvests that came up!
And it was discussed to get rid of the BOS!??????
Really, someone thinks getting rid of the BOS will help?????
They kill that may????
Wouldn't one go after the GO allocation instead???
Or the LEH???????

Problem with HBC, you cant always put into words what one is trying to "Really say" and it gets misconstrued.
Hopefully that is all that happened here.
Personally, would much rather discuss this shit in person!!:wink:
(Don't worry, I can stand behind my words!....im person even better).

The only issue with this XBow/Scope ban (I still think you will one day down the road see a full on XBow ban during BOS just
like Alberta), is "who SUPPORTED IT"!!!????
I already know "who didn't"!!!

As I said before, the guilty ones are just the Bio/CO who came up with a Moose #'s/BOS issue and the XBow dilemma (CO) in R6.
BUT, also "WHO STAYED QUIET"!!!
Who "didn't protest" it????!!!!!
Meaning, who wanted it!!???
nd what would their reasons be???
(Usually personal gain....ie. some GO's in the area).
And then there are some purists who would like to see them gone also (for sure!)

The worst part was, the Vertical Bow guys were almost the fall guys for this proposal.
When I fact, that weren't!
And that is BS in my books!!!!!!!!!!
Honestly, these proposals should be "above board" so that EVERYONE can see who supports what and why.
Anyways, doesn't effect me whether they get rid of them or keep them.
But, I still support hunters to "keep them".
I support hunting.
Hunting hasn't caused the issues to the extent many think in this province and why we are seeing such drastic declines.
Doubt a XBow is the big reason.
All I see is little bits and pieces of hunting being chiseled away.....flake by flake, eroding it to no end till its all gone.

As for hunters taking more time to get to the range, practice and understand that yes, in the field is definitely not like at the range.
If you can put the shots inside 1 1/2 at 100 yards, then I would say leave the 500 yard shots to those that can.
And in the field, you don't have nowhere near the stable rest you do at the range.
Same goes for Bows and XBows….
Know your limits.....stay inside them!

[IronNoggin]

First of all...relax!

Nothing in that rather long diatribe you responded with (although you did make some succinct points) addresses your assertion:


... Thing is, XBow is not a "short range weapon" any longer.
The FPS rates make this weapon just as effective as a 30/30 (maybe even better??).

And because of that, I, among many, are more than beginning to question you...

Nog

[Bugle M In]

Nothing in that rather long diatribe you responded with (although you did make some succinct points) addresses your assertion:



And because of that, I, among many, are more than beginning to question you...

Nog

Why??????
Because I have an opinion?
That when BOS 1st started, many looked at this season as having little affect on overall harvest #'s.
That, back then, XBows were things you saw in movies.

Reality is, many folks have Xbows that never would of had a vertical bow, for whatever reason, physical or other.
Why is the "truth" so scary for some of you??

So, when they enacted a BOS, they looked at the "weapons of the day" as "short range".
(yes, some can do way longer shots....some.)

But, like everything, technology changes.
So have bows....and now Xbows.
Its a fact....deal with it!

And the whole reason for my post was because one member made a statement that most folks will shoot really well "out of the box"
with an XBow over a vertical bow!
He was right! and was mostly acknowledging his point and was getting the gears from others.

My 12 year old can shoot the XBow way better then a Compound at 1st try!
That's the truth....so get over it that as well!!

Don't think I recall a 30/30 being used these days in "long range competition"....
(medium range weapon, especially like the one I used when I 1dt hunted that was "iron sight only"!!)

Questioning me??????????????
Really?????????????

F***, if this is what folks are like on this site, then yes, I should stop wasting my time, because then we truly have some folks that
think they can "bash their way" into making "their way happen"!!??? (good luck)
FYI, let me know how the GUN BAN works out for ya all if you think your chest beating is "going to help".
Scream all you want, it wont make a difference if that's all one thinks it will take!

Lots more to dealing with issues then "sounding tough"! (cause that's all it is!)

My point is, if we want to understand (an we should take the time to understand things from the other side), and come to a
proper solution, we need to look at the issues others present.

As far as the Scope Ban, if the CO is worried about poaching happening more "due to the fact that more Xbows exist".
(and maybe it is...maybe some folks who would never have thought of taking that buck in the neighbors backyard is now tempted
cause he now as a xbow??!!), then we need to atleast "hear them out".
Come up with a solution.
Solution is saw was "more CO's"...not a scope ban.

Same for the Bio that felt maybe the BOS is overharvesting due to all the folks now out there with XBows.
Firstly, (and I think you made this comment somewhere …" we need a study to see if that is true", and factually, I believe
my records show that actually it was the "bow guys" at the table that said there needed to be a study first!!!)

Right there is the other issue:
If someone I the Ministry wants to do away with BOS, they better have supporting evidence!
(which doesn't exist as of now)
So again, there is the solution there before we implement a scope ban or do away with BOS in "sensitive areas".

Anyways, I have way more shit to do in my own life then worry about folks here.
Seems like you all have it figured out.
Paint me the way you want.....
I am still going hunting next season....
And I still am going to have my opinions.

[Piperdown]

BMI, i used to read your posts and found some interesting but for christ sakes will you put the brakes on your looooong winded posts they are becoming tiresome

(Anyways, I have way more shit to do in my own life then worry about folks here.)...... do you see how funny this is

[IronNoggin]

... Anyways, I have way more shit to do in my own life then worry about folks here...


Then get on with it. Adios! ;-)

Shaking the ol' noggin once again...
Nog

[Bugle M In]

BMI, i used to read your posts and found some interesting but for christ sakes will you put the brakes on your looooong winded posts they are becoming tiresome

(Anyways, I have way more shit to do in my own life then worry about folks here.)...... do you see how funny this is

Hmmm. did anyone force you to read it????
Don't bother if it bothers you that much...imo.

[Bugle M In]

Then get on with it. Adios! ;-)

Shaking the ol' noggin once again...
Nog

You know, for too long I have kept my mouth shut.
You talk about all the "going to find out who did what and who's behind it bs"
On a lot of things!
And what, what are you "really" going to do???

You know, this site used to have a lot of posts, with lots of members when I first joined.
Lots of color for sure, but lots of good stuff.
But look, now, 98% of the posts are best left in the Open chat or Political Forum, and don't have a place in Mainland hunting.
I took the time to share hunts this year for members (like or not).
And help wherever I can.
But the sad part is, just look at this forum, a BCWF forum, and yet, no one from BCWF comes on here to talk or respond.
Wonder why? (or hasn't crossed your mind?)
Those guys (like or not) are long gone and I don't even know if there is a BCWF in any sort of high standing in the Org that still
partakes on here??

Watched a young guy on here, well spoken, well thought out in words, would listen to both sides of the fence etc, with real
hunting passion, and all it took was for one thread, one post (Caribou/Wolf/reducing prey like Moose) for him to get bashed.
And all he did was say that the "science" was that if both were done at the same time, that it was the best policy so far.
(I didn't agree with it, and think a cull is enough, but I got what he was saying).
Funny thing is, some scream science unless it doesn't follow their thoughts.
But boy, did he get hammered and now is gone.
Lots of folks gone.
All was great because most didn't see the storm cloud coming in(low #'s, preds etc)
But then cam the GOABC fiasco, and pretty much was the end of what this site once was.(the GOABC was just the final straw).

And you know what, guys like I just spoke about, who we really need more then ever, aint coming back.
And actually, it portrays exactly what is happening in the province right now about hunters.
Most hunters are now just "walking away" (away from BCWF away from any thing).
They are just going about it on their own, and accept it as it comes now.
Why bother being a part of a group when the group is nothing but a pack of used up old starving dogs with few days left in them!

And in that, is the biggest shame as to our plight and the future of hunting!
Keep it up!
If people don't fit your agenda, don't waste time trying to listen....just bash or make useless/worthless comments with really
nothing behind it.
I know I have a few followers that don't like me, like LBM etc.
But then again, remind me what someone like him has ever shared?

Think about this for second (take some time to really think first!):
You've got your scope ban and bait ban issues.
A need for wolf cull that will never happen and also by the same folks that gave you the Gbear ban.(where I signed to oppose)
You got your Fed Gov telling you these guns are getting banned (yet, I sign the petitions you so often post up).
You have both those clowns giving the FN everything (which we haven't even begun to see the implications yet, not at all!)
And then you got all the other crap, like funding and no Co's and this and that and Anti's.

Sounds like some serious shit I just mentioned in that last paragraph!!!
AND YET, MY INTENT is being put into question????
Who I am, is up for questioning...are you f'n kidding me?!!
And yet, with all those other BIG ISSUES, little old me should "move on" then.

Tells me a lot right there!
That if all you got is to tell someone like me that my "loyalties" are in question, and that I should move on.
Then it tells me you really have nothing better to do and that the "hunt for who is responsible and heads are going to roll" is
just a bunch of BS.
Because, if that was in play, you wouldn't waste time on me.

As for your gun ban...it will happen.
Why, because the majority of voters in the country want it.
They don't give 2 shits about "your opinion".
That is the political/social climate these days.
Paper aint going to change it!

The scope ban was a bad idea and I already said more CO's is a better solution.
Not enough Moose, I already said a wolf cull is a great place to start. (not removing a BOS).
Want your guns!!!????
Better start getting the majority of folks "interested in shooting" and owning them then trying to write a letter.

Understanding the "real issues" is the only way to find a real solution.
But then again, easier to just type words and knock folks over whenever it fits.
Good luck....you and LBM make a good couple and a strong representation for what HBC should be like and what it's all about these days.

[Piperdown]

Hmmm. did anyone force you to read it????
Don't bother if it bothers you that much...imo.

No I didn't read it after 1 paragraph, i said to myself well this is time wasted i will never get back, but i did see the quote about not wasting time with people on this site and BINGO, another novel was written, you almost make me miss Pembymess, off to the ignore you go with Jelly and Jazzy

[IronNoggin]

... Why bother being a part of a group when the group is nothing but a pack of used up old starving dogs with few days left in them!

KeRist! https://www.tnof.ca/styles/default/xenforo/smilies/Doh.gif

I call you out on misrepresenting the capabilities of crossbows while suggesting they are more effective than a 30-30, and get a page long diatribe in your "defense" which attempts to point out everything wrong with the world as you see it?

Grow up Lad!

There is no defense for your own words, you know it, and your continued babbling well shows that.

BTW: Have a good hard look at both of our previous post histories.
I can, by far, tell you who has contributed more to this site in terms of hunting tales and helpful information.

Sheesh!
Nog

PS: I already do know the who's and what's behind the mess under discussion in this thread.
As for what I am about to do about it... stay tuned...

[Bugle M In]

KeRist! https://www.tnof.ca/styles/default/xenforo/smilies/Doh.gif

I call you out on misrepresenting the capabilities of crossbows while suggesting they are more effective than a 30-30, and get a page long diatribe in your "defense" which attempts to point out everything wrong with the world as you see it?

Grow up Lad!

There is no defense for your own words, you know it, and your continued babbling well shows that.

BTW: Have a good hard look at both of our previous post histories.
I can, by far, tell you who has contributed more to this site in terms of hunting tales and helpful information.

Sheesh!
Nog

PS: I already do know the who's and what's behind the mess under discussion in this thread.
As for what I am about to do about it... stay tuned...

Well, either I wrote it wrong or misinterpreted?
But, an Xbow is what I compared to be "similar to" a 30/30, imo, in what I was trying to post.
(Sure, a 30/30 can go farther, but I was comparing a Xbow to a Vertical as one would a 30/30 to a 7mm mag)
Anyways, in capable hands and practice, a compound, an XBow or a rifle can reach out a long way.
Only saying some folks actually attempt it without really practicing.

Young couple driving around 2 years back I finally stopped and asked what they were looking for?
He had Moose LEH, (which, to my stupidity I never applied thinking the season opened later and didn't se the fine print that at the
current time I could have applied and hunted, but with bow)
Anyways, for 2 days I had come across a really large Bull.
So, knowing that and what the kid was looking for, I asked him 1 question:
"How far can you shoot with that Xbow"
He said "at most 60 yards".
And with that answer I proceeded to tell him where to exactly go to finds that Bull.
Had he said 100 yards, I doubt I would have said anything.
(That's how I look at it).

The one thing I take offence to, is when a conversation leaves the actual topic and some personal comments on the amount of posts, or log winded and even worse, my convictions as to who I am in the hunting/HBC Arena, then you now have a son of a
bitch to contend with in me.

Anyways, I will move on.
Don't own an Xbow, so honestly, doesn't really affect me one way or the other, but I still support those that want to use them.
Same goes for AR's, don't own them, I own bolt action and pump action and only 1 semi .22, which I would hide if need be and
just deal with it and buy another bolt action 22 or 223 if my heart so desires.
The beginning of the end of the world mantra, even if it is true and AR's are gone and will result one day in all guns being banned,
is either just speculation or if it does happen, will be long after I die by then, so again, doesn't affect me, but hey, I still support
those that want them.

I support a lot of things to try and help protect the rights of other on here, ATV use, Baiting and other, and all of them I either
don't own or don't do.
I just as well could be one of those that only cares about myself and what I do.
In that case, I could then not bother signing petitions, or answering to proposal and just carry on and let the rest of you who want those rights just go a "suck it".
But I am not like that, and damn rights if I take offence to anyone who says anything else about me.
(Especially if it is on the net....then I suggest come and see me personally....I will give them my address!)

My intention was to stay off HBC a little more, and was doing fine, but repairing a PC and loading programs is like watching paint
dry so I drop in to see whats up!?

And not to my surprise, one member is getting bashed for giving reports on his adventures on a snow mobile and the deer he is
seeing, so I felt the need to step in.
And also, if my posts are too long, then don't read them.
I guarantee all HBC members I am not holding gun to some folk heads who have commented on that point and forcing them to
read it.

Do what I do, either just move on when I see a long read, or read a few lines and see if I am interested, or at anytime in the read
you get bored, then just stop!
I do that often, one way or other, but I sure don't follow up with a post complaining to a member for doing that!
(Again, just shaking my head as to why some feel the need to poke etc???)

And Piper, I saw your post about my B/P.
And I agree, I wanted to spend less time here (which I will so you all can be happy).
But, FYI, it's 124/71.

So, I am good, but thanks for your concern:wink:

[Foxton Gundogs]

IBTL.............. FFS people, the bottom line here is someone, Blame the BCWF, The Traditional Bowhunters, The Guides or The Government. Who gives a damn if a 30-30 compared to a 7mm RM is equivilant to a Crossbow vs a Compound it doesn't matter one bit. An established and legal hunting opportunity is under attack and that should be a concern to everyone. It's a slippery slope and we should all be against loosing any legal hunter opportunities, your chosen style could be next. Why does it have to be like herding cats???

[Ron.C]

It's a slippery slope and we should all be against loosing any legal hunter opportunities, your chosen style could be next. Why does it have to be like herding cats???

Bang on Foxton

[limit time]

So....?
2 3/4” = traditional....

3” = compound bow....

3 1/2” = crossbow....

This is fun !

[btridge]

Originally Posted by Bugle M In

But, an Xbow is what I compared to be "similar to" a 30/30, imo, in what I was trying to post.
(Sure, a 30/30 can go farther, but I was comparing a Xbow to a Vertical as one would a 30/30 to a 7mm mag


And here is the problem, YOU make statements like this!
This shows those of us that DO have the knowledge about Compound Bows and Crossbows, that YOU no nothing about the subject you claim to know about. Again, you do all hunters a disservice when you make statements like this.
What you fail to understand, is that modern Compound Bows and modern Crossbows have the SAME effective hunting range. This includes the Ravin, speaking from first hand knowledge.

To single out crossbows because of the effective range over Compound bows is wrong.

[358mag]

Death by a Thousand Cuts

[Ambush]

What you fail to understand, is that modern Compound Bows and modern Crossbows have the SAME effective hunting range.



If you take ten rifle shooters/hunters that have never shot any type of bow. On Wednesday morning, give five a compound bow and give five a scoped crossbow, all being tuned and sighted in. Tell them, Saturday morning there will be a shooting contest, so practice. On Saturday morning YOU will be required to place a ten thousand dollar bet on either the compound team or the crossbow team, both shooting at cantaloupe at seventy yards. Oh, and the crossbow team can use shooting stix, bench rest or through the open window of a truck. Pick your team.

Now replace cantaloupe at the range with opening day of archery season.

Sometimes it can be hard to tell the dumb from the willfully obtuse. But it gets easier the more they talk.

[Gateholio]

If you take ten rifle shooters/hunters that have never shot any type of bow. On Wednesday morning, give five a compound bow and give five a scoped crossbow, all being tuned and sighted in. Tell them, Saturday morning there will be a shooting contest, so practice. On Saturday morning YOU will be required to place a ten thousand dollar bet on either the compound team or the crossbow team, both shooting at cantaloupe at seventy yards. Oh, and the crossbow team can use shooting stix, bench rest or through the open window of a truck. Pick your team.

Now replace cantaloupe at the range with opening day of archery season.

Sometimes it can be hard to tell the dumb from the willfully obtuse. But it gets easier the more they talk.


It would have to be a timed match to reflect hunting situations. As such, the compound users would win because of their 3-1 rate of fire over the crossbow users.:mrgreen:

Really, if modern archery gear is a conservation concern, it's time to disallow anything on modern bows that increase effectiveness. Compound bows with their pulley systems and aiming devices must be treated the same way as scopes on crossbows. Ultimately leaving only longbows, recurve bows and traditional crossbows with iron sights available to hunt with in bow seasons.

[btridge]

If you take ten rifle shooters/hunters that have never shot any type of bow. On Wednesday morning, give five a compound bow and give five a scoped crossbow, all being tuned and sighted in. Tell them, Saturday morning there will be a shooting contest, so practice. On Saturday morning YOU will be required to place a ten thousand dollar bet on either the compound team or the crossbow team, both shooting at cantaloupe at seventy yards. Oh, and the crossbow team can use shooting stix, bench rest or through the open window of a truck. Pick your team.

Now replace cantaloupe at the range with opening day of archery season.

Sometimes it can be hard to tell the dumb from the willfully obtuse. But it gets easier the more they talk.

You seem to have missed the point of the disagreement, I'll choose the 30/30 over any crossbow.

[Ambush]

https://www.facebook.com/bustedrack/videos/1421755687934029/

[Keta1969]

https://www.facebook.com/bustedrack/videos/1421755687934029/

Thanks for the morning laugh. Hilarious

[Bugle M In]

Originally Posted by Bugle M In

But, an Xbow is what I compared to be "similar to" a 30/30, imo, in what I was trying to post.
(Sure, a 30/30 can go farther, but I was comparing a Xbow to a Vertical as one would a 30/30 to a 7mm mag


And here is the problem, YOU make statements like this!
This shows those of us that DO have the knowledge about Compound Bows and Crossbows, that YOU no nothing about the subject you claim to know about. Again, you do all hunters a disservice when you make statements like this.
What you fail to understand, is that modern Compound Bows and modern Crossbows have the SAME effective hunting range. This includes the Ravin, speaking from first hand knowledge.

To single out crossbows because of the effective range over Compound bows is wrong.

I was trying to explain "what OTHER people" are saying and how "some look at the issue of XBows".
Trying to explain to folks "why some want XBow gone"...their reasons.
I didn't do a good job obviously (blame my self and wish I hadn't bothered!).

Yes, a 30/30 is better than an XBow.
But most folks "believe" an XBow is a mid range weapon, that if they buy it, allows them to shoot out to 100yrds to hunt,
especially when they hit 400fps and advertise the shit out of them.

Thus the 30/30 comparison.
Do you want to buy a 30/30 today, for all the hunting scenarios in BC, or would you go to a 7mm mag???
My friend John at Reliable Guns will probably tell yo 30/30's ain't flying off the shelf in sales this week!

And the same argument is used by diehard vertical bow guys at time

[Citori54]

[QUOTE=Bugle M In;2148761]
Yes, a 30/30 is better than an XBow.
But most folks "believe" an XBow is a mid range weapon, that if they buy it, allows them to shoot out to 100yrds to hunt,
especially when they hit 400fps and advertise the shit out of them.

Not sure where you get the data to support your statement that "most folks believe a Xbow is a mid range weapon that allows them to shoot out to 100 yards". I don't know a single cross bow owner that has said that when we have discussed performance of cross bows. Before you make these definitive statements, you at least should be able to provide the data to back up your claim. You wonder why people are questioning your integrity and motives.

[Bugle M In]

What I take offence to, is the "personal jab" of your post, not your disagreement to the topic.
If folks would stick to "debating" without personal innuendos, things are easier to discuss.
Throw personal things in, well, then we have a problem.
That's no way to get respect, imo. (I know, you could care less if you had mine).

And then Why I-R got involved with adding to those innuendos (not surprising as he has along history of doing it to tons of folks on
HBC over the years if they don't conform to his views), I will never understand.
I expect that from LBM (that's why he came up in my post although he hasn't even said anything, it's just what he does with me,
and others, and about all he ever does on here.)
Thus the correlation of lbm/metalhead.

Funny how some will be big shots, have lots of weight supposedly behind them, and have no issues hacking on folks all day long on here (although I know it happens on many I-net sites, not just hbc), behind a keyboard, putting other folks down.
I have nothing more on that other then sitting here shaking my head and wondering how folks think it okay and expect others
respect?
How does it help?
How many have left HBC because of it?

Again, my door is always open, and always would love a face to face!...in person, if one wants to talk like that.

As for long winded post, I do it at times to help avoid misinterpretation, however, it's not always any better.
Disagree respectfully with folks like me, and I will listen and see/think where I went wrong.
Talk stupid, shit talk....then come to my door.
But don't expect folks to listen much if they know you are one of those that spends much of their time with that sort of
behavior on any site.
And there are a few on here.

I support XBow, but I understand if the vertical bow guys were to lose BOS outright because of them, that they would ask for
Xbow to be removed from BOS like Alberta.
The scope issue is down right dumb.
Sooner or later, we will see that come up as a proposal (XBow out of BOS),imo.

I support every form of hunting, as long as rules like ATV on roads only or designated trails for example.
Understand some folks reasoning for the bait ban to slow CWD, but in the end, it just removes a form of hunting and CWD wont be stopped by it, so, whats good about that solution?
Why I would be questioned as to my loyalties to the hunting community, is beyond me...just more shit talk.

Last note, I spent enough time at Billy Boys house in the backyard with a 80 pound D/W compound, then a 65 pound D/W compound when my shoulder started to go, and after the 3rd operation (disaster), practice with my FIL's XBow.
And if you don't know the nickname Billy Boy in the Bow World here in BC, then you know less about bows then I do.

[ElectricDyck]

So what's the motivation behind this enforcement? Too much harvest? Been hearing the talk of banning target turrets as well...whats the deal? Is the anti hunting gov't just trying to edge us out one useless rule at a time?

[tuner]

So what's the motivation behind this enforcement? Too much harvest? Been hearing the talk of banning target turrets as well...whats the deal? Is the anti hunting gov't just trying to edge us out one useless rule at a time?

The NDP would never do such a thing!!!
How dare you!!!

[358mag]

So what's the motivation behind this enforcement? Too much harvest? Been hearing the talk of banning target turrets as well...whats the deal? Is the anti hunting gov't just trying to edge us out one useless rule at a time?
Hate to say this , but we as hunters are our own worse enemy . The government + greenies know that and they play us according .

[chilcotin hillbilly]

So what's the motivation behind this enforcement? Too much harvest? Been hearing the talk of banning target turrets as well...whats the deal? Is the anti hunting gov't just trying to edge us out one useless rule at a time?

the thinking behind the scoped crossbows was the huge increase in moose harvest in region 6 and 4 during the moose bow season. The options given to the review committee was shorten the bow seasons to a couple days only, remove the GOS bow season and go to total LEH, or eliminating crossbows all together during bow seasons like many other jurisdictions

[Piperdown]

the thinking behind the scoped crossbows was the huge increase in moose harvest in region 6 and 4 during the moose bow season. The options given to the review committee was shorten the bow seasons to a couple days only, remove the GOS bow season and go to total LEH, or eliminating crossbows all together during bow seasons like many other jurisdictions

I would like to know where they got that data as they even admitted in the proposal that they don't know the numbers because it is not asked in the hunter survey mail out. I hunt 6-04, and know of 1 bull that was harvested where i hunt this past season

[limit time]

the thinking behind the scoped crossbows was the huge increase in moose harvest in region 6 and 4 during the moose bow season. The options given to the review committee was shorten the bow seasons to a couple days only, remove the GOS bow season and go to total LEH, or eliminating crossbows all together during bow seasons like many other jurisdictions
Where can a person find the data on the “stats” ? I would like to read them.

[ElectricDyck]

From my understanding the region 6 moose numbers are doing fine...Indians just want to get an easy moose and are putting more and more pressure on the gov't to get a bigger piece of the pie...and it seems to be working....wonder how many cows are shot off sleds in the winter? Guess we'll never know..

No..no..it's the crossbow scope, that's the problem...

[Ron.C]

Where can a person find the data on the “stats” ? I would like to read them.

As would I. I've taken my share of game bow hunting from GOS to LEH and I've never been asked what sort of archery equipment I used?

This is all BS. Unless you have all the data "ALL MORTALITY" data you are just targetting the low hanging fruit in an attempt to justify a perceived problem or you have another agenda.

How many of the moose in these areas get killed by predators, parasites, FN, Non FN, poaching, vehicle collisions, shot legally and not recovered, and on and on. But let's go after a specific group. And who benefits from the change?

If there is a management concern, do the research and prove it. Id rather see seasons go LEH then target one group within a specific group. To me this is driving a wedge in the hunting community and if I were an anti hunter I'd be laughing my ass off right now.

[IronNoggin]

the thinking behind the scoped crossbows was the huge increase in moose harvest in region 6 and 4 during the moose bow season. The options given to the review committee was shorten the bow seasons to a couple days only, remove the GOS bow season and go to total LEH, or eliminating crossbows all together during bow seasons like many other jurisdictions

The information suggesting the "huge increase" during the bow session is subjective at best, and therefore suspect.
As it was presented and then supported by biased sources, it is further suspect.

The reaction of the government in the options it presented is nothing more than Government Over-Reach. Period.
To suggest any of them were necessary Province Wide was and is beyond LUDICROUS.
To then openly state that the options and subsequent decisions came directly from those on the panel, rather than the government itself, was dishonest and intentional misdirection.

Again, Say When and reap the consequences...
Nog

[Piperdown]

From my understanding the region 6 moose numbers are doing fine...Indians just want to get an easy moose and are putting more and more pressure on the gov't to get a bigger piece of the pie...and it seems to be working....wonder how many cows are shot off sleds in the winter? Guess we'll never know..

No..no..it's the crossbow scope, that's the problem...

Just got from the cabin in 6-04, most moose sign i have seen in probably at least 6 years, tracks every where and saw a lot of moose, very good calf/cow recruitment. Positive thing is not much for wolf sign, from personal observations the bear population is the issue, so remember to buy your bear tags and help do your part!!

[Onesock]

Why would a moose shortage have any consequences for blacktail deer on Vancouver Island or Whitetail deer in Cranbrook/Rock Creek? There is more afoot than we arebeing told!!!

[IronNoggin]

Nope. The strongest statement yet from the BCWF:

The BCWF does NOT support the proposed ban on scoped technology on bows during any hunting season.
I wrote the following short essay explaining my reasoning.


Chuck Zuckerman
(https://www.facebook.com/chuck.zuckerman.9?fref=gs&__tn__=%2CdK-R-R&eid=ARClQwCWZf_D5ZWqaswgntigQFXsCxvB3Fr6lixCnN7vdv jnLDs8g_UJSrP2beaq8Wa9PrjIXE6Aws58&dti=2031464753566652&hc_location=group)

Is the Crossbow Scopes Regulation Proposal a scientifically based -recommendation or a public relations faux pas?
If the optics on a crossbow are viewed as a temptation for a hunter to shoot further than they are capable of, then this proposal should be accepted; however, if optics are viewed as a tool to more effectively harvest game in an ethical and humane manner then the proposal must fail.


If you believe that the accuracy of your shot greatly improves with a cross hair scope on a bow as opposed to using a distance pin system you would be against this regulation proposal to banish scopes from bows.
Further, if achieving greater accuracy was the intention of the proposal, then incorporating a range finder in to the scope would make more sense than clumsily holding a range finder in one hand while you positioned your bow for the desired accurate humane shot, again not banishing scopes from bows.


What needs to be considered is that the method of harvest is secondary to the ethical use of the harvesting tool. Once the tool user has a sufficient skill level the association of similar harvesting tools during a season is of no concern.
The opportunity to hunt a week before the beginning of the general hunting season is available to anyone who wishes to purchase a bow or crossbow and become proficient with it.


The season provides a unique opportunity to encourage, recruit, and retain hunters because it is prior to the beginning of school, as well being the only convenient time available for some participants.
Our youth is the future and further opportunities must be made available to them.


More restrictions also affect the economics of hunting.
Sporting goods providers generally, and archery suppliers and local businesses specifically will lose the revenue generated by this early season hunt.


Additionally gathering harvesting and observation data would be diminished because there would be observers available for reporting.
The emphasis should be the teaching of ethics not legislating morality.


The CORE program of the BC Provincial Government, delivered by the BCWF, devotes the entire Chapter 2 Ethics of the CORE manual to that subject.


The Chapter paraphrased reads:
Ethics are standards of behaviour which are generally considered to be morally correct.
Personal ethics are unwritten laws that govern your behaviour when you are alone or with others.
Your personal code of ethics is based on your respect for other people and their property, for all living things, their environment and your own image of yourself.


Hunters have a Code of Ethics and they are judged in society by the values and deeds of each member and those of the hunting group as a whole.

Without the Code of Ethics developed by hunters over the years, today’s society would not tolerate hunting for long in spite of its long and significant role in human history.


Hunting ethics support behaviour that emphasizes the quality of the hunting experience and the way the hunt is conducted.
A hunter’s pursuit of game should always be governed by the “fair chase” principle.


“Fair Chase is the ethical, sportsmanlike, and lawful pursuit and taking of any free-ranging wild, native North American big game animal in a manner that does not give the hunter an improper advantage over such animals. Free-ranging is any native North American big game animal that is unrestricted within its biological home range, has adequate protective cover, and reasonable opportunity to elude the hunter.” The Boone & Crockett Club


Achieving these ethical guidelines will demonstrate your respect for wildlife:
1. Before you go hunting be certain your harvesting instrument is accurately sighted in and is suitable for the species you plan to hunt.
2. Practice using the harvesting tool and learn to safely and effectively use it. Learn the distance at which you can be most confident in harvesting game quickly and humanely.
3. Don’t shoot until you have a clear shot at a vital part of the animal.
4. Make sure you have properly identified the species and get as close as possible to the target.
5. Make certain it is completely safe to take the shot.
6. Determine that you can recover the animal considering its location, the time of day, and the time that may be needed 
for retrieval?
7. Make every effort to find the animal. The law requires you to remove all edible portions of your harvested prey.

8. If you miss a shot, carefully examine the place where the animal was to ensure that it was not hit.

9. Wait for 10-15 minutes before pursuing the animal.


The attached chart shows that every State allows crossbows with scopes, except for Oregon. Fifteen of fifty states have age restrictions for crossbow use, however all states allow the disabled to use crossbows throughout their hunting seasons.
It could be argued that the use of crossbows is safer than the use of firearms because their effective range is usually less than 50 yards. Their use beyond seventy yards can be problematic.


Limiting available technology rather than emphasizing its ethical use would be similar to restricting the taking of rifle shot to a maximum of two hundred yards because it is assumed most people could not shoot that far accurately.
I do not support restricting the ethical use of technology.


Chuck Zuckerman

[btridge]

I looked for a statement from bcwf before I started this thread, I couldn't find one, when did this statement come out?
Why did it take so long ?
I know this was a government policy put forth, did bcwf refuse to give a vote on said policy ?

[IronNoggin]

I looked for a statement from bcwf before I started this thread, I couldn't find one, when did this statement come out?
Why did it take so long ?
I know this was a government policy put forth, did bcwf refuse to give a vote on said policy ?

It came out 3 hours ago on this Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2031464753566652/?multi_permalinks=2819746734738446&notif_id=1580930454248214&notif_t=group_activity

And yes, it took a spell.
I can't say why.

But it is now finally out there.

Cheers,
Nog

[chilcotin hillbilly]

I would like to know where they got that data as they even admitted in the proposal that they don't know the numbers because it is not asked in the hunter survey mail out. I hunt 6-04, and know of 1 bull that was harvested where i hunt this past season
According to government this reported increase in harvest was reported by butchers. Not what I would call scientific .

[boxhitch]

According to government this reported increase in harvest was reported by butchers. Not what I would call scientific .Just points out the subjectivity of most of the proposals, nothing to do with science, just someones feel-good

Like the 6-29 moose proposal, someone feels the pressure is increasing so lets make a change, regardless of pop. numbers

[Mulehahn]

I looked for a statement from bcwf before I started this thread, I couldn't find one, when did this statement come out?
Why did it take so long ?
I know this was a government policy put forth, did bcwf refuse to give a vote on said policy ?

I hope there is some success in obtaining the minutes of these meetings through FO; but it is important to remember that the people voting for at these discussions are individuals. In some cases these individuals serve 2 masters and the one they choose to side with may not be the one they were selected to represent. I believe this was alluded to earlier in this thread. It also explains the delay in responding as explanations and justification is sought before proceeding!

[Piperdown]

According to government this reported increase in harvest was reported by butchers. Not what I would call scientific .

Thanks for that, this makes it even more insane

[traparatus]

I don't think there is any controversy in saying that improvements in bow technology and considerable decrease in cost has led to much greater hunter participation numbers and higher success rate. It's not unfathomable to think that eventually restrictions will have to be applied to address this situation.

As for crossbows I don't think their range or speed has much to do with anything. The reality is, an absolute novice can group bolts at 30 meters within a day of purchasing a crossbow. This same degree of competence takes countless hours of practice to achieve with a compound bow. This is entirely anecdotal evidence but in many years of shooting at my archery club along side hundreds of other archers I have never once seen a crossbow. Maybe all crossbow shooters have really large back yards.

This issue is important to me as I live in region 6 now and I spend many more days out with a bow than I do with a rifle. I know the outfitter who pioneered the LEH Bow season campaign and I am of a low opinion of him and his outfit. His interests are entirely his own and have absolutely nothing to do with species management. The thing is, my dislike of this person is not enough of a reason to not consider the merits of proposed regulation changes. Eventually restrictions will be imposed on archery seasons. This is one way to do it. Eliminating optics on archery equipment is another. Shrinking general open bow seasons is another.

Hunting opportunity has become so incredibly rare in the southern portion of Region 6 that I strongly oppose any decrease in length of season. I think 'no optics' idea is entirely plausible though a 'seniors and disability' exception would need to be introduced to go along with it. LEH is a much better solution to species management than GOS especially if it is combined with mandatory inspection. Personally I hate the LEH Bow proposal but that doesn't necessarily mean that I oppose it. Not everything has to be about satisfying my personal interests.

Eventually the 'spirit' of the bow season will be violated to a degree that some restriction will be necessary. It might come down to simply picking ones that you dislike the least.

[IronNoggin]

... It might come down to simply picking ones that you dislike the least.

Don't drink their kool-aid.

Just don't.

Nog

[Foxton Gundogs]

Exactly Nog. Anyone who thinks a crossbow shooter can become proficient in a few hours has never hunted successfully with a crossbow.

[303savage]

banning crossbow scopes, Is the ban for bow only season ?

[dany]

The whole sense of archery season is to give archers a competitive advantage as they chose not to use modern tools such as scopes. It’s getting ridiculous if you use a 450fps crossbow with a scope during archery season, because then you can take a rifle as well. Archers are working their ass off during that season, I get why some find it unfair if somebody with a 12x scope comes around.

[IronNoggin]

... It’s getting ridiculous if you use a 450fps crossbow with a scope during archery season, because then you can take a rifle as well. Archers are working their ass off during that season, I get why some find it unfair if somebody with a 12x scope comes around.

Another uninformed divisionist in the ranks I see. http://www.outdoorsmenforum.ca/images/smilies/confused0024.gif
With all of three posts??

Well, at least the powers that be came to their senses and tossed out this over-reaching motion before it gained too much traction.


Cheers
Nog: Hunting with a 380 fps bow topped by a 2.5 power scope.

[Foxton Gundogs]

What Nog said.

Hunting with a 410fps with scope.

[Citori54]

Well said Nog and Foxton. Tired of being preached at by the elite. It's bad enough that we have to listen to the sanctimonious idiot in Ottawa but it's sad to be coming from fellow hunters.

[Rob Chipman]

So...saw this pop up with the newest 3 comments.

Question: was there ever any truth to the original claim that BCWF supported this ban? I certainly never saw any indication of it anywhere.

[J_T]

So...saw this pop up with the newest 3 comments.

Question: was there ever any truth to the original claim that BCWF supported this ban? I certainly never saw any indication of it anywhere.
Hey Rob. As you probably know, the discussion, and issue/topic at the time was a proposal to remove the crossbow from the R6 Archery only moose season. Bowhunters questioned the proposal and requested that science be used to determine whether the proposal was viable. The Gov biologists 'decided' an alternative (middle ground) proposal was warranted, and thus the scope removal on the crossbow was proposed. Once proposed, there was no real public or organizational review of the new / revised proposal.

[Rob Chipman]

Thanks JT. You provide better detail than I remember, but I was pretty sure that there was never any support from BCWF for the ban, and I remember knowledgeable bowhunters having the best insight.

Coming home from a hunt last night I saw this had popped up again and felt like stirring the pot a bit by pointing out the the thread subject line "BCWF supports BAN on crossbow scopes" was completely untrue, and subsequent judgments of how the BCWF was all kinds of wrong for supporting the ban (which it never did) are kind of offside.

Your comment also addresses, I think the charge that BCWF didn't rush to the barricades fast enough to denounce the proposed ban (which was proposed by government and which never really gained much traction).

[Foxton Gundogs]

Actually it is totally true. The proposed resolution discussed by BCWF Region 2 was to ban crossbows with scopes from hunting in archery season. It was made public by a sitting board member who was latter suspended for outing their dirty little secret before it could go to AGM, It was quickly dropped after that.

[Rob Chipman]

"Actually the proposed resolution discussed by BCWF Region 2 was to ban crossbows with scopes from hunting in archery season."

The BCWF Region 2 Board is, as you probably know, not the entire BCWF, and things that they discuss at their meetings are not BCWF positions.

"It was brought to light by a sitting board member who was latter suspended for outing their dirty little secret before it could go to AGM, It was quickly dropped after that."

So, if I understand you correctly, the guys at Region 2 discussed the ban, and it never went further than a discussion at the Region 2 board? That makes sense. I never heard it discussed much during any official BCWF business except to hear reports that the proposal existed, that it came from government and that didn't have a lot of support.

Of course, I think we all understand that a regional board of the BCWF discussing sending a resolution to the BCWF's AGM entails the regional board to draft a resolution (either opposing or supporting the ban, in this case) and then sending it to the BCWF resolutions committee for review to see if it can get on the AGM agenda.

I don't know if Region 2 supported or opposed the ban (although Chuck Zuckerman was quite clear that neither he nor BCWF supported the ban), but as you point out, Foxton, region 2 never moved forward with any resolution either supporting or opposing the ban.

Again, when I heard about the proposed ban it was described as a government proposal that didn't have a lot of support for a lot of reasons.

It's really tough to spin that as "BCWF supports a BAN on crossbow scopes". It's sort of an irresponsible claim, frankly.

[IronNoggin]

The proposed resolution discussed by BCWF Region 2 was to ban crossbows with scopes from hunting in archery season. It was made public by a sitting board member who was latter suspended for outing their dirty little secret before it could go to AGM, It was quickly dropped after that.

Correct. That was a proposed resolution (many of us know exactly who it came from and why) which was in addition to the one the government came up with in it's so-called consultation process. As I recall, the Region 2 consideration was not so much focused on scopes, but the outright banning of crossbow use in archery seasons overall. The government "compromise" focused more on the scopes, which would have had close to the same effect IMO.

The board member who was ousted for bringing this to light is a responsible and respectful individual with a long track record of doing what is best for the resource. Those who ousted him come off as petty little trolls with an axe to grind over someone exposing their behind-the-door plot (which is exactly what it was). Shameful.

Again, at this stage none of this was passed. Thankfully.

However the moving of the archery moose hunt to LEH as an alternative is simply one more indication of just how far out there wildlife management in this province really is.

Nog

[Foxton Gundogs]

Right on Nog, but then we should be used to being told it is a warm summer shower when we get peed on. I have done more for Region 2 than many of their current BOD but that Ides of March assassination of a long time Director/Past Pres. because he chose not to let this stay another BCWF secret well that capped it for me.

[Mulehahn]

Unless I am completely out to lunch (I could be since I wasn't in the room but have been heard a reasonable explanation of what went on) the title is at worst a half truth. Yes, the BCWF did suppory the ban... in so much that the members representing the BCWF on the Region 6 "Provincial Hunting and Trapping Advisory Team" voted in favour of the ban. It doesn't really matter what Provincial Body says its position is, or what Region 2 tried to pass. The only thing that matters is what the BCWF member in that boardroom said in regards to the Province's proposal; that is the defacto BCWF position and the only one that matters.

There in lies the problem; from all information I can gather there was only one true dissenting voice and another one or two that didn't feel this matter concerned the body they represented. None of those voices came from the BCWF. I understand why, and don't lay any blame. But going forward, the BCWF has to decide if it wants to continue to act as the voice of resident hunters full stop, or act as a conservation group full stop. It is impossible to serve 2 masters. Then they must apply the rules to the representatives they send to represent them. If ones livelihood may possibly be directly affected by decisions that may be made by one side you should not be chosen to represent the other.

[The Donald]

So i know of 4 people who got the bow leh in 6-04, as of this morning not 1 animal harvested and they all have pounded it hard

[Rob Chipman]

Nog:

"As I recall, the Region 2 consideration was not so much focused on scopes, but the outright banning of crossbow use in archery seasons overall."

You could be right. I wasn't there and no resolution came to BCWF from Region 2, as I recall. As this thread demonstrates, Chuck Zuckerman, who probably was there, was explicit in his statement that BCWF did not support the ban. There is no actual indication that BCWF supported this ban, is there? I understand that there may or may not have been some sort of disagreement at the Region 2 Board, but nothing actually came from it aside from a director being suspended by his fellow directors, correct?

I gotta say, if a resolution came from anyone to the BCWF suggesting that we ban crossbows outright it simply wouldn't gain any traction or be taken seriously.

Foxton:

"I have done more for Region 2 than many of their current BOD but that Ides of March assassination of a long time Director/Past Pres. because he chose not to let this stay another BCWF secret well that capped it for me."

Thanks for your service, and I'm sorry you're not happy with the current state of affairs. I think you realize the the Region 2 Board does not share their minutes with the BCWF, nor do they share their plans or value positions aside from resolutions that they may or may not create and forward to the BCWF.

You're probably also aware that the Region 2 Board is actually a completely independent society and not strictly speaking a creature of the BCWF aside from the fact that R2 Board members are also BCWF members.

I wasn't at any of the R2 BoD meetings and so have no direct knowledge of what they discussed or didn't discuss, and I'm not aware of who was suspended or why, so I accept your relation of events.

That still doesn't add up to BCWF supporting a ban on crossbow scopes or crossbows altogether, and it doesn't add up to "another BCWF secret". BCWF never supported a ban on crossbow scopes nor a ban on crossbows in general. The OP appears to have been wrong in his allegation.

Mulehahn:



"Yes, the BCWF did suppory the ban... in so much that the members representing the BCWF on the Region 6 "Provincial Hunting and Trapping Advisory Team" voted in favour of the ban. It doesn't really matter what Provincial Body says its position is, or what Region 2 tried to pass. The only thing that matters is what the BCWF member in that boardroom said in regards to the Province's proposal; that is the defacto BCWF position and the only one that matters."

I've been at Provincial Hunting and Trapping Advisory Team (PHTAT) meetings. Participants sign a confidentiality agreement when they begin, which I of course did, so I can't talk too much about what was said or who voted on what or when, but my recollection of the meetings I attended don't correspond with what you're relating.

Maybe what you heard occurred at an earlier meeting - I don't know.

I do know this - there are a lot of people at the PHTAT table (Trappers Association, WSS, BCWF, etc, plus government employees).

The non-government people advise only. They don't make the rules. The rules are made by government. The government can take or ignore advice. The non-government members do not vote to adopt a regulation or policy.

What you're relating may be true (that there was only one truly dissenting voice and a couple who weren't convinced that the issue concerned their groups) but if there was only one dissenting voice wouldn't you think the regulation would have actually come to pass? Again, it may also have occurred at a meeting that I didn't attend, because your relation of events doesn't correspond with my memory of any PHTAT meetings I've attended.

I think I can also share that nobody from BCWF Region 2 BoD was at any of the PHTAT meetings when this proposal was discussed, and I certainly never received any communication from R2 regarding the proposed ban prior to attending PHTAT meetings.

In fact, Chuck Zuckerman's comments about BCWF not opposing technology that ensures a cleaner kill, providing fair chase ethics are still observed, seems more in tune with what I recall (Chuck was not at the PHTAT meetings either, so don't roast him). When I say "providing fair chase ethics are still observed" compare a guy with a 425 fps crossbow with a scope to the completley automated longe range sniper rifles that were indeed banned by the COS - Hard to argue that a guy with a crossbow shooting 425 FPS and 40-80 yards isn't fair chase when rifle hunters often shoot 300 yds.

All that said, you make a good point when you say "The only thing that matters is what the BCWF member in that boardroom said in regards to the Province's proposal; that is the defacto BCWF position and the only one that matters." Again, my recollection of what occurred doesn't correspond with what you relate, and that could be a result of it happening at an earlier meeting or it could be a result of it never happening at all, but your point is correct and I will undertake to keep that in mind in all future PHTAT meetings.


"BCWF has to decide if it wants to continue to act as the voice of resident hunters full stop, or act as a conservation group full stop."

There isn't necessarily a conflict, as most hunters are also conservationists. Conservation is clearly BCWF's prime concern, as clearly stated on our website and in all kinds of published materials, but you'll note two recent actions taken by BCWF - one was to lobby for hunting and fishing to be declared essential services during the pandemic (that benefits hunters) and our legal work on access restrictions erected by First Nations during this and past hunting seasons.

The essential services ruling benefits all hunters, whether BCWF members or not.

The injunctions, strictly speaking, may only be enforeceable for BCWF members, but the message they send to the rest of the world are beneficial to all BC residents who want to maintain access to crown land. Remember that the very concept of "crown land" is now up for grabs (if you aren't aware that many people now deny that crown land even exists, you need to catch up).

Anyone unhappy with what BCWF is doing should realize that it's a volunteer organization that faces way more challenges than it can currently address effectively. We are a conservation organization first and foremost, but most of our members are hunters and anglers, and we try to promote their interests and achieve their goals. We've done a pretty good job of that, I think.

I will tell you, given the developments on the Indigenous relations front and the cost of litigation, get ready to grab your wallets and support a BCWF legal war chest, because injunctions run about $60k a pop, and often only apply to one geographic location.

There has long been talk of a group dedicated strictly to representing BC hunter rights. I hope someone fly's at creating one. I'd likely join it.

[Mulehahn]

Thanks. I may have worded it wrong. I understand that these meetings are in no way binding, but I was under the impression that the government was seeking input from the groups present on how on what regulation changes to proceed with and seek feed back from the general public before being implenented. No, no vote is held but as a rule if almost every group opposes it, it goes back to the drawing board. I have not attended a phtat meeting but have attended several similar meetings regarding fishing that were probably similar. Everyone gets a chance to express their thoughts and if the majority think its is a bad idea then it probably is and is scrapped; never to be propsed to the public. No, it is not a formal vote and some things can be taken out of of context (has happened to me, a flippant remark I made and thought nothing of resulted in a significant season change once) but from what I can gather a BCWF representative at the meeting was in full support of this rule. But as you say it doesn't matter, the government can do as it pleases. Instead of taking away scopes they made it LEH.

And as far as the BCWF, and what it is doing.. I support them. As an organization. I do donate my time and money. Think every hunter should as they are seem to be the only voice the Province will listen to. The battles that lie ahead will be huge. That is why I want so badly for the BCWF to get itself back together. A new group just doesn't have time. Just not sure it will.

[Gateholio]

Any point to keep this thread open? Better convince me quick.....

[Rob Chipman]

Probably not.