Southern Interior Mule Deer Project Update

[Bugle M In]

So, I was looking at this as I found some mapping of it on FB and decided to dig a bit deeper.

Interesting, when you look at the Boundary Group Study.
Looks like they collared appr. 27 deer, and NOW, 22 of them have fallen into the "Mortality Category" already!
If I am correct, they only have about 5 left to study!???
AND, look at who was "responsible" for their demise.....Cougar.

Cougar also for W.Okanagan area as well, just not as bad.

Here is the link:
https://bcwf.bc.ca/southern-interior-mule-deer-project-update/

One thing, on FB, the map showed more of the actual "deer movement" where as the one on the link is a bit more
"generalized".
(Not sure where to find better details??)

Shows how few deer are surviving for any length of time, imo.

[ghost]

intresting like to see more studys like this

[vladthepes]

...thanks for the link! Very interesting!

[whitlers]

It would be interesting to know the cat population around there. I have only seen a few cats while in the bush. Would there be any benefit to getting rid of Cougar tags and allowing hunters to kill them when they see them like wolves. Only in that general area that is.

[twoSevenO]

very cool. Post up the FB map!!

[Wild one]

It would be interesting to know the cat population around there. I have only seen a few cats while in the bush. Would there be any benefit to getting rid of Cougar tags and allowing hunters to kill them when they see them like wolves. Only in that general area that is.

houndsmen and GOs would fight it tooth and nail

[pg83]

It would be interesting to know the cat population around there. I have only seen a few cats while in the bush. Would there be any benefit to getting rid of Cougar tags and allowing hunters to kill them when they see them like wolves. Only in that general area that is.

It would be interesting to see where the deer were getting killed. I'm no scientist, but I believe the deer in the Cache Creek Study Area are surviving because they are all wintering in a fresh burn.

That said, I'm curious if there was better survival in the Boundary Study Area specifically around the recent Rock Creek burn than in other parts of the Study Area.

[twoSevenO]

houndsmen and GOs would fight it tooth and nail

not to mention it probably wouldn't help much. How many hunters actually see a cougar? As far as i know it's a very low number of people.

[Bugle M In]

Well, I am not sure if this study, and stating that many of the MD that were killed by Cougar, neccesarliy means that we have too many
Cougars or a Cougar issue (but, imo, I think we possibly do), but rather that a Cougar can become a very strategic hunter and when they
zero in on a prey species, they are very efficient at hunting/killing them.
I have seen that with other studies in the States, where one cougar was responsible for depleting many of the Bighorn in one herd.
While another study on MD also saw Cougar as the biggest killer of MD, just like here.

It could just mean that all it takes is a Cougar or 2 in a particular area to do a lot of damage.
Granted, they are just doing what Cougars do.

Surely wolves, just due to the fact that they are pack animals, need to feed a lot of mouths.
But I think most wolves when hunting deer need snow to be really efficient.
I doubt Cougars do, and are great at hunting them all year round.

Anyways, this study is a great idea, kudo's to the folks that volunteered their time to do so.
Now, if only the ministry does something to help the situation, otherwise, it was another useless study that just ends up being shelfed.

[Bugle M In]

It would be interesting to see where the deer were getting killed. I'm no scientist, but I believe the deer in the Cache Creek Study Area are surviving because they are all wintering in a fresh burn.

That said, I'm curious if there was better survival in the Boundary Study Area specifically around the recent Rock Creek burn than in other parts of the Study Area.

Yes, there is definitely some "complexity" to this study and who is killing what, and where and when.
Are some situations better for the Cougar.
Are some areas better for MD survival.
Hopefully that is all looked at to make better habitat management decisions one day??
Definitely a good point/post.

[Wild one]

not to mention it probably wouldn't help much. How many hunters actually see a cougar? As far as i know it's a very low number of people.

They don’t get seen often that is for sure. I have only see a handful out hunting in my life and only 3 would have been possible for a shot. Most cougar sightings are a fast glimpse even when you see them

[Ourea]

More deer where captured and collared last week in the Boundary.

[Wild one]

One to consider is wolves are also known to push cougar of their kills in turn causing the cougar to hunt more.

This could be playing a roll in this as well

[Bugle M In]

More deer where captured and collared last week in the Boundary.

Good thing! as it was looking like they wouldn't have enough to study by X-mas:grin:
Thanks for the update.

[Bugle M In]

One to consider is wolves are also known to push cougar of their kills in turn causing the cougar to hunt more.

This could be playing a roll in this as well

Really good point I had never considered!

[Bugle M In]

very cool. Post up the FB map!!

Not sure if this is going to help you and others, but I will post up what I think is the link???
BUT, if people would go to the FB site for:
British Columbia Chapter of Backcountry Hunters & Anglers

Link: https://www.facebook.com/BCWildlifeFederation/videos/2408719332777561/UzpfSTE1MjM1ODk1OTI6Vks6MTQwMjI4MTE2MzI1NDM2Mg/

[Bugle M In]

If that link worked, it shows "everybody" how important the Columbia Valley is to deer and all ungulates come winter!
And we have done really nothing to protect much of those areas for them.
Instead, we have had them culled due to some "private interests" as well as just continuing development.

[Pauly]

It would be interesting to see where the deer were getting killed. I'm no scientist, but I believe the deer in the Cache Creek Study Area are surviving because they are all wintering in a fresh burn.

That said, I'm curious if there was better survival in the Boundary Study Area specifically around the recent Rock Creek burn than in other parts of the Study Area.
Actually the fire actually destroyed good habitat as in the way of fir in the valley the deer eat the lichen of the limbs now it’s all grassland another 10 years and all the burnt timber will be down on the ground . Fire helps and fire hurts. If anything deer numbers have dropped since the fire.

[ratherbefishin]

Hunted all my life and only seen two cougars ,seen cat tracks by by boot prints when retracing my path though..never saw them,even when they followed me for half a mile

[Bugle M In]

Actually the fire actually destroyed good habitat as in the way of fir in the valley the deer eat the lichen of the limbs now it’s all grassland another 10 years and all the burnt timber will be down on the ground . Fire helps and fire hurts. If anything deer numbers have dropped since the fire.

Sounds like you and me have hunted the same areas.
I would agree, that in the case of the Ashcroft Reserve Fire, that some areas that burnt were in fact a "bad thing", as it was one some
prime winter range, and yes, lichen is something they like to have in their mouths and which the fore destroyed a lot of and what
MD need thru winter.
Now, on the main Plateau, where so much of it was obliterated by logging, summer range, that would have been a great area to have had
a fire...naturally occurring, but without all the logging already present, would have been ideal.

Some of the fringe areas of the fire, that did burn in winter range, is where I think there were big benefits!
Where, just like spot logging, this combination of mature growth winter fir with lichen and then fresh grasses and plants from the burn
intertwined is perfect, imo.

I think the decline of deer in the area however, already started when the logging got heavy, and then followed by wolves and R5 closure and added hunting pressure.
It is possible that benefits from the burn may take years to see, rather then some areas like the OK fire where many hunters found some
real benefits from it within a year or 2.
The extensive logging makes this different.

[charlie_horse]

Awesome study. Would love to see them collar some around carpenter lake where wolves are 100% predating on mule deer.

[pg83]

Actually the fire actually destroyed good habitat as in the way of fir in the valley the deer eat the lichen of the limbs now it’s all grassland another 10 years and all the burnt timber will be down on the ground . Fire helps and fire hurts. If anything deer numbers have dropped since the fire.

I won't dispute for a second that fire can do both good and bad, but I'd like to know where you have gotten your deer numbers from and for what years you are referring to specifically. Are you certain that deer numbers have dropped or have the deer simply changed their behavior and you are not seeing them as much? I don't spend much time in that area of the province so I am basing my info off the scientific data which shows(to me) that the deer currently collared in this specific area are actually doing pretty good.

[Wild one]

Awesome study. Would love to see them collar some around carpenter lake where wolves are 100% predating on mule deer.

Lots of cougar there too

[Pauly]

Sounds like you and me have hunted the same areas.
I would agree, that in the case of the Ashcroft Reserve Fire, that some areas that burnt were in fact a "bad thing", as it was one some
prime winter range, and yes, lichen is something they like to have in their mouths and which the fore destroyed a lot of and what
MD need thru winter.
Now, on the main Plateau, where so much of it was obliterated by logging, summer range, that would have been a great area to have had
a fire...naturally occurring, but without all the logging already present, would have been ideal.

Some of the fringe areas of the fire, that did burn in winter range, is where I think there were big benefits!
Where, just like spot logging, this combination of mature growth winter fir with lichen and then fresh grasses and plants from the burn
intertwined is perfect, imo.

I think the decline of deer in the area however, already started when the logging got heavy, and then followed by wolves and R5 closure and added hunting pressure.
It is possible that benefits from the burn may take years to see, rather then some areas like the OK fire where many hunters found some
real benefits from it within a year or 2.
The extensive logging makes this different.
Yeah I’m a regular in the area 40 years worth so one tends to see how things change over time. Numbers of deer will rebound .. the new grasslands will be great early spring/summer range now but the loss of winter range is a very real problem. I agree the fringes will hold deer but not to capacity now. Land can only cary so many animals. Be a nice fire to have a year round 4 point only reg.

[Pauly]

I won't dispute for a second that fire can do both good and bad, but I'd like to know where you have gotten your deer numbers from and for what years you are referring to specifically. Are you certain that deer numbers have dropped or have the deer simply changed their behavior and you are not seeing them as much? I don't spend much time in that area of the province so I am basing my info off the scientific data which shows(to me) that the deer currently collared in this specific area are actually doing pretty good.
You are looking at it all wrong my friend. Just because collard deer are doing well means precisely nothing other than they are doing well. Numbers are an entirely different study. The current study is about survivability .. mortality and necropsy that’s it!

[Bugle M In]

I won't dispute for a second that fire can do both good and bad, but I'd like to know where you have gotten your deer numbers from and for what years you are referring to specifically. Are you certain that deer numbers have dropped or have the deer simply changed their behavior and you are not seeing them as much? I don't spend much time in that area of the province so I am basing my info off the scientific data which shows(to me) that the deer currently collared in this specific area are actually doing pretty good.


Yeah I’m a regular in the area 40 years worth so one tends to see how things change over time. Numbers of deer will rebound .. the new grasslands will be great early spring/summer range now but the loss of winter range is a very real problem. I agree the fringes will hold deer but not to capacity now. Land can only cary so many animals. Be a nice fire to have a year round 4 point only reg.
pg83, You are right, neither of us have any concrete proof of numbers.
Honestly, I don't even know if the Ministry does either!?(not sure if they did a winter count of the area where the studies were before they begun? (that would make too much sense for the ministry to have figured out!)

Like Pauly, it's an area I know really well, also for about 40 years now.
IF I go by sign and even activity, there is a change, especially in regards to big bucks.
But, there is also a shortage of Does, in big groups like there once was.

But, I also know the time I go, there is virtually no snow as compared to years ago, and I know that this could make a big difference.

I think more what Pauly and I are seeing, is that many of the areas burnt do not have deer standing in them where they would have been
the year before.
For me, I am also seeing that the Does don't have 2 fawns with them, like in the past.
Which for me, is the most concerning, and not based on the of lack of big bucks etc, that makes me feel not all is well.
Feed has been there in the winter as logging was not an issue but was due to be until the fire squashed that plan (thank god!)
Also, I ran into way more winter kill then ever before yet last winter was mild.

The other comment I made about wanting to see a proper mapping of the collars and the deers movement year round, wasn't about trying to
find new hunting grounds (most know where to go anyways), but to see if their movements where different based on all the logging.
Were they using different corridors to travel down then what I know from experience???

The only problem I suppose with the study is, we have no previous study to look at to see "What is really different now as compared to say
30 years ago".
But hey, we got to start somewhere and this is a great first step to see what the issues are right now.

[dougan]

This whole thing is why a buy a puma tag each year . See one shoot one . 1 deer per week per cat do the math.

[Pauly]

This whole thing is why a buy a puma tag each year . See one shoot one . 1 deer per week per cat do the math.
Absolutely.. cats favourite pray is big old worn out mule bucks. Stumbled across more than a few kills the last couple of years. I saw some very large bucks early in the season through my spotter but all 3 points. We ended up shooting two not bad bucks this year nothing to brag about but happy to fill the freezer. Next year I chase lewie all season

[pg83]

pg83, You are right, neither of us have any concrete proof of numbers.
Honestly, I don't even know if the Ministry does either!?(not sure if they did a winter count of the area where the studies were before they begun? (that would make too much sense for the ministry to have figured out!)

Not sure if they have done a recent inventory, but wildlife has not been a priority for any party in the province for a long time. It's not about making sense or not, it's about dollars.


Like Pauly, it's an area I know really well, also for about 40 years now.
IF I go by sign and even activity, there is a change, especially in regards to big bucks.
But, there is also a shortage of Does, in big groups like there once was.

But, I also know the time I go, there is virtually no snow as compared to years ago, and I know that this could make a big difference.

I think more what Pauly and I are seeing, is that many of the areas burnt do not have deer standing in them where they would have been
the year before.

I'm not surprised there is a change in the sign you are seeing. The recent massive burn has changed the habitat throughout the region. Animals are going to use the landscape differently.
#climatechange is also undoubtedly having an impact on many species and we have no real clue about any of that currently to the best of my knowledge.


For me, I am also seeing that the Does don't have 2 fawns with them, like in the past.
Which for me, is the most concerning, and not based on the of lack of big bucks etc, that makes me feel not all is well.
Feed has been there in the winter as logging was not an issue but was due to be until the fire squashed that plan (thank god!)
Also, I ran into way more winter kill then ever before yet last winter was mild.

Direct quote from the link provided earlier in the thread by you: "As of spring 2019, our team had documented pregnancy rates of 93% and twinning rates of >69%. These metrics are both considered very good for mule deer."



The other comment I made about wanting to see a proper mapping of the collars and the deers movement year round, wasn't about trying to
find new hunting grounds (most know where to go anyways), but to see if their movements where different based on all the logging.
Were they using different corridors to travel down then what I know from experience???

Agreed 100% I'm happy that the bio's do have that data to look at the very least. It is through such information that they can attempt to influence the decision makers above them to provide real change.


The only problem I suppose with the study is, we have no previous study to look at to see "What is really different now as compared to say
30 years ago".
But hey, we got to start somewhere and this is a great first step to see what the issues are right now.

Nothing to say to that besides the fact I wish we had more funding available for wildlife and the wild places they inhabit, period.

[pg83]

You are looking at it all wrong my friend. Just because collard deer are doing well means precisely nothing other than they are doing well. Numbers are an entirely different study. The current study is about survivability .. mortality and necropsy that’s it!

I never made a claim that the numbers were healthy in comparison to historical figures. I simply stated that the numbers from the study showed that the deer captured in the Cache Creek Study Area were doing pretty well. You still haven't provided any back up to your claim about decreasing numbers though. For the record I'm not disputing that claim, I simply like to have statistical data to back it up.

[Pauly]

I never made a claim that the numbers were healthy in comparison to historical figures. I simply stated that the numbers from the study showed that the deer captured in the Cache Creek Study Area were doing pretty well. You still haven't provided any back up to your claim about decreasing numbers though. For the record I'm not disputing that claim, I simply like to have statistical data to back it up.
Their is no statistical data and even if there were it would most likely be a wild guess.. I use to be a government employee so I should know let’s put it that way. Numbers in this specific area are waaay down plain and simple but yes the deer are doing well. I’m out their 365 so it doesn’t take a genius to see how things have changed as far as numbers go However this year with no snow the deer won’t migrate in said area at all at this point. Statistics are bull shit and everyone knows it ... he’ll the government spends millions on a moose survey to determine what’s killing moose.... lol it’s called logging. But they use a study to circumvent the possibility of blame . Politics are a bitch for our wildlife . Go walk through a 100 % fir forest find one pine tree hammered with pitch tubes call it an infestation and clear cut it. Been their done that buddy. That’s how it works

[Bugle M In]

Not sure if they have done a recent inventory, but wildlife has not been a priority for any party in the province for a long time. It's not about making sense or not, it's about dollars.



I'm not surprised there is a change in the sign you are seeing. The recent massive burn has changed the habitat throughout the region. Animals are going to use the landscape differently.
#climatechange is also undoubtedly having an impact on many species and we have no real clue about any of that currently to the best of my knowledge.



Direct quote from the link provided earlier in the thread by you: "As of spring 2019, our team had documented pregnancy rates of 93% and twinning rates of >69%. These metrics are both considered very good for mule deer."




Agreed 100% I'm happy that the bio's do have that data to look at the very least. It is through such information that they can attempt to influence the decision makers above them to provide real change.



Nothing to say to that besides the fact I wish we had more funding available for wildlife and the wild places they inhabit, period.

To the breeding and twinning etc, all I can say is, I have concerns that many of the fawns don't make it after hunting season ends till next spring.
The issue has never been "the breeding of Does" although many worry about either the any buck season or the group that wants 4pt shut down for time during the season.
The fact the pregnancy rates are high in all the Does captured, should be enough proof that there are still enough bucks to get it done.
So neither worrying about any buck or a closed 4pt to me is a useless conversation.

What the age of the Does are is more of a concern, if memory serves me correct, it takes an older Doe to have twins, not 1 year old.
And, are the fawns surviving??
In the Boundary, doesn't sound like much is at all!

Also, "unregulated hunting" seems to be on the list for the Cache Cr study, so does that mean poached or FN harvest.
I have come across more then a few deer that were shot and left, and most of them Does to begin with (which leaves me perplexed??).
So poaching or useless killing is happening up there and I suspect more then many know about.
And the FN leaves a whole other factor to the great unknown.

AS for fires changing the deer habits and movements.
Those issues started long before the fire!!
I have hunted may years up there, know others who have and have had the opportunity to even speak to the local FN Chief and another in a high position in the band, and we talked about the "Changes" in deer pattern and areas which were good for finding deer but now were crap even though the habitat hadn't changed.
The biggest factor they felt as well as myself was all the logging, hands down, as it was the only issue happening.
No Beetle kill or windfall from that, no wolves, and no change in hunting pressure back then when the issues began.
Just miles and miles of landscape with no trees.
Now that, just like you say about a fire "changing their patterns", will also cause a change in patterns, and it did!! (didn't need the fires help at that point).

[Pauly]

To the breeding and twinning etc, all I can say is, I have concerns that many of the fawns don't make it after hunting season ends till next spring.
The issue has never been "the breeding of Does" although many worry about either the any buck season or the group that wants 4pt shut down for time during the season.
The fact the pregnancy rates are high in all the Does captured, should be enough proof that there are still enough bucks to get it done.
So neither worrying about any buck or a closed 4pt to me is a useless conversation.

What the age of the Does are is more of a concern, if memory serves me correct, it takes an older Doe to have twins, not 1 year old.
And, are the fawns surviving??
In the Boundary, doesn't sound like much is at all!

Also, "unregulated hunting" seems to be on the list for the Cache Cr study, so does that mean poached or FN harvest.
I have come across more then a few deer that were shot and left, and most of them Does to begin with (which leaves me perplexed??).
So poaching or useless killing is happening up there and I suspect more then many know about.
And the FN leaves a whole other factor to the great unknown.

AS for fires changing the deer habits and movements.
Those issues started long before the fire!!
I have hunted may years up there, know others who have and have had the opportunity to even speak to the local FN Chief and another in a high position in the band, and we talked about the "Changes" in deer pattern and areas which were good for finding deer but now were crap even though the habitat hadn't changed.
The biggest factor they felt as well as myself was all the logging, hands down, as it was the only issue happening.
No Beetle kill or windfall from that, no wolves, and no change in hunting pressure back then when the issues began.
Just miles and miles of landscape with no trees.
Now that, just like you say about a fire "changing their patterns", will also cause a change in patterns, and it did!! (didn't need the fires help at that point).
You probably remember in the spring time going up Battle Creek road it’s wasn’t uncommon to count 100 mule deer or more in the sage no problem it was an incredible sight. Now if I see 50 I’m extatic. Back in the day all the hunting from natives and non natives alike made no impact then came the moon scape up top and each successive year we observed fewer and fewer deer on the winter range. Logging creates a whole host of problems that will take 30 years to self correct. Yes the deer are healthy yes they are reproducing but unfortunately for all wildlife habitat is key. No way around this it is an indisputable fact. I’m curious if we’ve bumped into one another over the years. Do you fish the lake?

[tracker]

I hope these volunteers


Know the difference between a" cat kill " verses a wolf kill, bear kill or coyotes. Shitty to see the cats getting all the blame,,

[Wild one]

I hope these volunteers


Know the difference between a" cat kill " verses a wolf kill, bear kill or coyotes. Shitty to see the cats getting all the blame,,

Would be nice to have had a few cougar collared in the area as a study to add data to the MD study. The factor I mentioned earlier in the thread with wolves pushing cats of kills might be part of the issue. We all no wolves have increased over the years but have cougars?

Either way definitely sounds like a predator issue is at play

[LBM]

I hope these volunteers


Know the difference between a" cat kill " verses a wolf kill, bear kill or coyotes. Shitty to see the cats getting all the blame,,

Many people cant tell the difference between tracks let alone kills.

[LBM]

Would be nice to have had a few cougar collared in the area as a study to add data to the MD study. The factor I mentioned earlier in the thread with wolves pushing cats of kills might be part of the issue. We all no wolves have increased over the years but have cougars?

Either way definitely sounds like a predator issue is at play
Don't no about other areas but in many of the units in region 4 the cats don't get a break from the wolves following them and taking there kills.
The doe whitetail season has also changed what the cats are seeking for a food source, that is why any study here is flawed.

[Wild one]

Don't no about other areas but in many of the units in region 4 the cats don't get a break from the wolves following them and taking there kills.
The doe whitetail season has also changed what the cats are seeking for a food source, that is why any study here is flawed.

I will keep an open mind on the study till I see data and the conclusion that is reached

It would not surprise me if factors are missed because most studies do and often because someone has a theory/agenda before it started that they are trying to prove correct. Would be nice if that was not the case with this one

[Bugle M In]

Would be nice to have had a few cougar collared in the area as a study to add data to the MD study. The factor I mentioned earlier in the thread with wolves pushing cats of kills might be part of the issue. We all no wolves have increased over the years but have cougars?

Either way definitely sounds like a predator issue is at play

Yes, not only the Cats but Wolves.
I know it costs a ton of money and man power hours.
But I never understood these studies, such as this, and want to get definitive answers to make strategic decisions in the future, without
collaring the Preds in the Area.
It would really clarify who is doing what, and where and when.
With tracking collars and todays technology, it should be pretty easy to see who did what.

Obviously Car killed or unreported or even reported kills need to take the long route.

The only other Stupid in all this, is the FN and if they are trying to see the value of such studies and are willing to say what their members
are harvesting.
whats the point of flying over every few years and taking count if no one knows what is either creating a surge in MD #'s or creating their
demise.

I sure would like a discussion with those involved in the study to explain how they do determine who killed what originally.
24 hrs after a deer dies, and your guess is as good as mine as to what killed it?

[Wild one]

Yes, not only the Cats but Wolves.
I know it costs a ton of money and man power hours.
But I never understood these studies, such as this, and want to get definitive answers to make strategic decisions in the future, without
collaring the Preds in the Area.
It would really clarify who is doing what, and where and when.
With tracking collars and todays technology, it should be pretty easy to see who did what.

Obviously Car killed or unreported or even reported kills need to take the long route.

The only other Stupid in all this, is the FN and if they are trying to see the value of such studies and are willing to say what their members
are harvesting.
whats the point of flying over every few years and taking count if no one knows what is either creating a surge in MD #'s or creating their
demise.

I sure would like a discussion with those involved in the study to explain how they do determine who killed what originally.
24 hrs after a deer dies, and your guess is as good as mine as to what killed it?

I am keeping an open mind and waiting for the data and the conclusion reached before I lay judgement on this study. But the common trend with these studies is they start with a theory and often lean data collection towards proving that theory correct. Often many factors are forgotten or ignored and blanks filled in with educated opinions rather then facts

It would be nice to see things done in a non biases fashion and hope this is the case with this study. If the conclusion is one smoking gun that is blamed it will be a sure sign of BS or incomplete study

[Bugle M In]

I am keeping an open mind and waiting for the data and the conclusion reached before I lay judgement on this study. But the common trend with these studies is they start with a theory and often lean data collection towards proving that theory correct. Often many factors are forgotten or ignored and blanks filled in with educated opinions rather then facts

It would be nice to see things done in a non biases fashion and hope this is the case with this study. If the conclusion is one smoking gun that is blamed it will be a sure sign of BS or incomplete study

Yup, I am also keeping an open mind.
I suppose I am just thinking out loud about this study.
I was taught that no matter what someone tells you, aske questions, lots of them!
Something us in the older generation were taught but I do worry about the younger folks being brain washed.

Agree, there will not be "one smoking gun" to this issue and if so, I also call BS.

But again, before laying judgment, lets see what these folks manage to figure out and again, I give them credit for their time and am thankful
that a study is happening here in BC rather than looking at Studies from the USA.

I think they are looking at several factors as issues from what I am reading between the lines.
I think what we can do, is help support ACTION after the study is complete (if the conclusions make sense), to get the government to
do something and take the proper steps, otherwise it's all for nothing.
And Support and Forcing the governments hand is something these volunteers of this study cant do without us standing up behind them!

Proper Funding and a strong will to follow Initiative is what the government needs to be directed to do.
Something they have forgotten for many years, no matter the party in power.

[fuzzybiscuit]

This whole thing is why a buy a puma tag each year . See one shoot one . 1 deer per week per cat do the math.

When I was on the Island I bought a cat tag every year since seeing my first in the early 90’s.

I’ve seen 36 in total but was only fast enough to give 6 a dirt nap by way of my rifle. 1 got it on the Gold River highway too but he actually attacked me first. My dusty front tire looked like someone threw a soccer ball at it. He may have made it but the boat trailer got him too.😀

[Red_Mist]

There was a study out of University of Calgary on cougars. Found females almost exclusive target mule deer while males target large ungulates like moose and elk.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

I believe new cougar study is starting this winter. There was a presentation on it at my club but I couldn’t make it.
Can anyone expand on it?

[Elkaholic]

I believe new cougar study is starting this winter. There was a presentation on it at my club but I couldn’t make it.
Can anyone expand on it?

They also presented to our hound club. Shoot me a PM with your email and I can send you the info.

[longwalk]

Anecdotally.. spoke with a local I ran into in the bush in 8-14 this past October. He said 15 cats had been taken out of the area we were both hunting. Nine by the G/O and six by locals.

[tracker]

Anecdotally.. spoke with a local I ran into in the bush in 8-14 this past October. He said 15 cats had been taken out of the area we were both hunting. Nine by the G/O and six by locals.

yes the cats can concentrate in certain ungulant areas during the winter months , which tells you nothing about the true cat population for the rest of the year.

[Wild one]

I believe new cougar study is starting this winter. There was a presentation on it at my club but I couldn’t make it.
Can anyone expand on it?

That should add so valuable info to the MD study.

Good to hear

[SemperAurum]

I would love to tell all of you about all the mule deer that I saw the past 2 years. Sadly, the numbers were so low and the herd sizes so small that you would all be disappointed.

The largest herd I saw was on Agate Bay road in a farm field during October. Approx. 32 does. I almost shit my pants.

I get around and I spend much time in mule deer country. I just don't see very many anymore. I certainly do not see any deer highways pounded into the snow anymore. And I dont see much deer poop. This is by far the worst year for seeing deer tracks in the snow.

This spring I plan to hit all the winter ranges in my area and see whats up. (Gang, williams Lake, Cache Creek, Clinton, Lillooet, Kamloops...........)

WHAT I DO NOT SEE IS ROAD KILL MULE DEER OR MANY DEER ALONG HIGHWAYS AT NIGHT ANYMORE. THIS ALONE TELLS ME THAT THE MULE DEER ARE GONE.

[HighCountryBC]

Would be nice to have had a few cougar collared in the area as a study to add data to the MD study. The factor I mentioned earlier in the thread with wolves pushing cats of kills might be part of the issue. We all no wolves have increased over the years but have cougars?

Either way definitely sounds like a predator issue is at play

There will be 20 collared cats in the study areas.

[Wild one]

There will be 20 collared cats in the study areas.

That should give a good sample. This could be interesting to see the end results

[HighCountryBC]

Actually the fire actually destroyed good habitat as in the way of fir in the valley the deer eat the lichen of the limbs now it’s all grassland another 10 years and all the burnt timber will be down on the ground . Fire helps and fire hurts. If anything deer numbers have dropped since the fire.

Temporary drop in numbers maybe, but in the end the burn will be a net positive for wildlife. Traditional winter range had a lot less stems/ha of Douglas-fir than there is now. Mule deer require more than lichen in the winter and the fire will definitely help with that.

[HighCountryBC]

That should give a good sample. This could be interesting to see the end results

10 in the Boundary and 10 in the Okanagan is the plan I believe.

[chargerman69]

in the Vernon area I know the mule deer and whitetail numbers have dropped dramatically. my house is just below one of the muledeers wintering range and spring fawn range and 20 years ago we could count ( and not accurately, just rough guessing with groups of 10, 20 etc) 350 to 400 mules deer come spring when the first green hits the hillside. about 15 years ago it was still good but down to 200 animals on the hill side. now 3 years ago I was on my porch with a spotting scope and counted 65 at the most and that was looking In the bluffs and gulley's etc, 2 years ago it was just over 40 and this last spring I managed to count 35.... really sad to see the decline, it used to be a treat to watch in the spring see all the fawns, and young deer coming up.... but so miss managed both on the hunting regulation side and the predator management side it makes me sick, I wont even hunt my local mule deer anymore. but our government still allows a month long any mule deer buck season..... and the stupid whitetail doe season is still going. they need to wake up or we wont have a deer recovery for 10 years.... even Cherryville was a danger to drive through come first and last light from worrying about hitting a whitey and now I make that drive weekly and you see a few in the fields but nothing near what it used to be....

[boxhitch]

The land use in the area of that slope has changed over the years, the holding capacity for the surrounding is not what it used to be either, no wonder there is less usage of the wintering grounds
and blaming hunting and regs is still a false narrative

[Bugle M In]

Three are going to be a lot of factors as to why, especially in regards to changing landscape.
And yes, a fire is a fantastic thing, for many years to come.
The only issue is, is that so much of the landscape (talking more about the Bonaparte Plateau), is that there are no trees left really to speak
about.
Yes, the fire can come thru it and do a great job burning up all the crap (something failing from our logging practices) etc.
But, there still need to be treed areas.
Fires don't necessarily burn every tree, but logging removes them all.

My interest would be to see the actual movements of deer as they migrate and what routes they use and when.
Are they using the open country, and during the day, or only a night or are they looking for those few areas that are treed to move up and
down in.

Where are they hanging to avoid preds?

This could be very important to the future.
Mind, most of those changes would have to be taken outside of the hunting spectrum.
Wonder how well that is going to work when trying to implement a better management program.
Not like those issues can be just fixed thru hunting regs.

The cat collaring is great to hear.

[Pauly]

I almost feel guilt taking a poke at a big buck now. I don’t believe the regs were the cause of mule deer declines, however; I do feel restricted regs would help until numbers recover. I truly believe implementing a 4 point only year round regulation in selected areas would help. Also foot access areas only as well. It wouldn’t be hard to set boundaries using roads and creeks height of land ect. But if how we manage our salmon runs is any indication our deer have no hope in hell. I for one would welcome shortening seasons and antler restrictions. I couldn’t imagine a more depressing thing than loosing our deer. Theirs a lot of talk including myself about bad management but maybe I need to not worry about filling my freezer and just go for quality deer and let the small fellas grow up. I’ve got 30 white oak trees in my house growing and will transplant this spring. My way of helping. Bear is also a great eating critter two a year would satisfy my needs and save some deer in the mean while. Hunting isn’t always about killing it’s so much more than that. But if change is what we want we really do need to start with our selves. I no longer fish salmon in the south Thompson river for this reason I’d like to be apart of the solution and not a part of the problem. I ice fish for Kokanee now and spend more time targeting whitetail.

[boxhitch]

Good move Pauly if you really think there is a lack of bucks around to get the breeding done

[Wild one]

Pauly

do some research into why most of North America stopped the practice of antler restrictions. The one is hunters shoot short deer and this happens more then hunters want to admit. 3-32 even made the paper one season because of the amount of short deer COs were finding left or reported.

I believe BC made a right call going one MD. A next positive would be follow suit with most other jurisdictions in North America and ditch the point restriction deer season. There is a benefit to using either shorter seasons or weapons restrictions instead of 4pt season for both genetics and eliminating the short deer issues

Either way changes to buck harvest won’t have a large impact in population growth

[Pauly]

Pauly

do some research into why most of North America stopped the practice of antler restrictions. The one is hunters shoot short deer and this happens more then hunters want to admit. 3-32 even made the paper one season because of the amount of short deer COs were finding left or reported.

I believe BC made a right call going one MD. A next positive would be follow suit with most other jurisdictions in North America and ditch the point restriction deer season. There is a benefit to using either shorter seasons or weapons restrictions instead of 4pt season for both genetics and eliminating the short deer issues

Either way changes to buck harvest won’t have a large impact in population growth
Guys that make point mistakes are just morons who shouldn’t be packing a riffle or even hunting. Those are the type who got to kill no matter what they make us tru sportsman look bad to all others. Manage for big bucks to keep pesky whitetail from chasing down slow mulie does. As with everything it’s always a people problem. I’ve never made a mistake and I never will. If I’m not sure I let it walk .. big deal it’s only a deer. Better that than be a F*****g idiot

[Ourea]

This has been stated in other threads on this MD project but for those that ignore the facts.....pregnancy of captured and collared MD is close to 100%. This takes into account does carrying twins. MD can’t get any more pregnant than 100%, not that difficult to understand. Recruitment is not the issue. The issue is survival, period.

So, if you have 100% pregnancy rates and no doe season yet numbers continue to drop....regulations will not do a single thing to help bolster MD numbers THUS THE STUDY!

Why are MD does not surviving, that is the basic core question that will be answered with this study.

[Wild one]

This has been stated in other threads on this MD project but for those that ignore the facts.....pregnancy of captured and collared MD is close to 100%. This takes into account does carrying twins. MD can’t get any more pregnant than 100%, not that difficult to understand. Recruitment is not the issue. The issue is survival, period.

So, if you have 100% pregnancy rates and no doe season yet numbers continue to drop....regulations will not do a single thing to help bolster MD numbers THUS THE STUDY!

Why are MD does not surviving, that is the basic core question that will be answered with this study.

would be interested in timing of fawn birth and weight going into winter. There is studies and jurisdictions that believe lower buck numbers contribute to later conception in turn creating weaker fawns going into winter. Study in the us done over the years on WT(yes not MD) found with increased buck ratios the health and average weight increased over the years.

There is reasons beyond pregnancy and hunter interest that a other jurisdictions manage for higher buck vs doe ratios. I am also aware that there are bios who disagree with this but there are those who contradict most management theories

I know this much I did notice more fawns bearing spots in early season in the past years. Not long after that reports of B.C. not making ratio goals were being heard.

Doubt it’s a main factor but have to wonder if it’s a contributor

[Stone Sheep Steve]

10 in the Boundary and 10 in the Okanagan is the plan I believe.

Also collaring cats in the Kookanusa area

[Wild one]

Guys that make point mistakes are just morons who shouldn’t be packing a riffle or even hunting. Those are the type who got to kill no matter what they make us tru sportsman look bad to all others. Manage for big bucks to keep pesky whitetail from chasing down slow mulie does. As with everything it’s always a people problem. I’ve never made a mistake and I never will. If I’m not sure I let it walk .. big deal it’s only a deer. Better that than be a F*****g idiot

I agree the shooting of short bucks is a slob problem but it’s still an issue. But this is not the only issue with point restrictions. Like I said majority of North America abandoned the practice with deer and it goes beyond short deer. It is outdated inferior management

Hybrids are also rare WT don’t breed out MD. The only case that is an issue is MD breeding out BT where hybrids are common. Competition from WT with MD is over feed and mostly in wintering grounds. Elk are actually documented as the number one ungulate when it comes to out impacting MD numbers through competition

[Pauly]

I agree the shooting of short bucks is a slob problem but it’s still an issue. But this is not the only issue with point restrictions. Like I said majority of North America abandoned the practice with deer and it goes beyond short deer. It is outdated inferior management

Hybrids are also rare WT don’t breed out MD. The only case that is an issue is MD breeding out BT where hybrids are common. Competition from WT with MD is over feed and mostly in wintering grounds. Elk are actually documented as the number one ungulate when it comes to out impacting MD numbers through competition
I suppose you may have a point. I have read research as to one way hybridization that is fairly compelling. More than likely both may be occurring at the same time. As usual their is always more than one piece to the story. One thing I think for certain is a shorter any buck for a few years . It would be good science at the very least to compare numbers after a few years time.

[Ourea]

would be interested in timing of fawn birth and weight going into winter. There is studies and jurisdictions that believe lower buck numbers contribute to later conception in turn creating weaker fawns going into winter. Study in the us done over the years on WT(yes not MD) found with increased buck ratios the health and average weight increased over the years.

There is reasons beyond pregnancy and hunter interest that a other jurisdictions manage for higher buck vs doe ratios. I am also aware that there are bios who disagree with this but there are those who contradict most management theories

I know this much I did notice more fawns bearing spots in early season in the past years. Not long after that reports of B.C. not making ratio goals were being heard.

Doubt it’s a main factor but have to wonder if it’s a contributor


Necropsies performed on rd killed does revealed the vast majority of fawns were conceived the dates shouldering the 22nd of Nov.
Granted, this was on WT but the data is very interesting

[Ourea]

An FYI, one of the does collared last week didn’t make it 24hrs.
Cat got her hrs after release.

[Wild one]

Necropsies performed on rd killed does revealed the vast majority of fawns were conceived the dates shouldering the 22nd of Nov.
Granted, this was on WT but the data is very interesting

I would bet the ratios on WT are not the same as MD either in BC.

Either way it is something I am curious about especially knowing BC’s MD ratios are lower than most states/provinces management goals by a fair bit.

[Ourea]

I would bet the ratios on WT are not the same as MD either in BC.

Either way it is something I am curious about especially knowing BC’s MD ratios are lower than most states/provinces management goals by a fair bit.

That is BC data

[Wild one]

That is BC data

yes but you said it was data collected from WT not MD or was that a typo?

[Ourea]

WT, not MD...yes

[Wild one]

WT, not MD...yes

Ok I don’t think WT are facing an issue with ratios in B.C. and Nov 22 sounds about right for WT. Would match bang on with what I assumed for rut activity over the years actually. Kind of nice to know that

MD are the ones I am more curious about with ratio issues possible effecting things

Seems the big factor is leaning towards predation being the big one with the study but I always think about all possible issues

[Bugle M In]

An FYI, one of the does collared last week didn’t make it 24hrs.
Cat got her hrs after release.

Yup, a study on MD in the States came up with Cat being #1 issue.
I am assuming that is in the Boundary Area study that this Doe was killed.
Wow....there is an issue there!

[Bugle M In]

Wildone is correct about hybrid issues etc.
And also, the 4pt regs don't work (didn't work with elk and still not working with elk)
And Ourea is right, with virtually 100% pregnancy, the issue is not enough bucks running around out there.
Might not be enough 4 pts running around for most hunters liking, especially "big ones", but that's all it means.
Does are getting pregnant and if a decent amount are having twins, then feed and age of Does is okay.

That sort of widdles down some of the possible theories right there.
Does leave Predation with a big target on its back right now.
Could also be survivability of lack of winter range etc by the time study is done.

But yes, "Survivability" is the name of the game of this study.

[Pauly]

I understand what guys are saying about the 4 point thing not working. I also realize does are being taken care of in the rut. My thing is genetics. Not all mature bucks get to be trophy quality irregardless of age. I just wonder if we’re creating a bottle neck in good genetics? Very thought to figure out the right answers I think. Lots of good discussions though I think.

[SemperAurum]

Sometimes people tend to overthink issues and place too high value on flawed studies, small sample sizes, and their own personal views and agendas.
Its funny how a bunch of dudes that kill deer think they are experts.

[Ourea]

Sometimes people tend to overthink issues and place too high value on flawed studies, small sample sizes, and their own personal views and agendas.
Its funny how a bunch of dudes that kill deer think they are experts.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
This right here

[Wild one]

I understand what guys are saying about the 4 point thing not working. I also realize does are being taken care of in the rut. My thing is genetics. Not all mature bucks get to be trophy quality irregardless of age. I just wonder if we’re creating a bottle neck in good genetics? Very thought to figure out the right answers I think. Lots of good discussions though I think.

the worst thing for genetics is the 4 pt season because it protects poor genetic. Old mature bucks with poor genetics are protected during the rut when they would slip up. It promotes 3pt genes and bucks with weak forks because they are tougher to identify. Dominant deer don’t need a big rack just strength and aggression. Then add in a lot of deer die when the first hit 4pts. This is one of the reasons many areas abandoned this management like I mentioned

The proven method to promote more mature deer and quality deer is restrict overall buck harvest well harvesting across all classes when you do. You end up with a higher number of bucks in turn you have more bucks. The reason Alberta and Saskatchewan produce so many big MD is partially do to lower harvest and way higher buck to doe ratio goals. I don’t know of a single area in North America that is known for producing world class MD that does it with antler restrictions

want genetics and quality deer and more mature bucks close early and late 4pt season when they are easiest to target and keep only the any buck season. You will harvest less deer, you won’t be weaning out your strong genetics by selecting the strong 4 pt genetics, and more bucks will reach the mature age. Probably not what you and other hunters want but it would work.

seriously there is tons of info on the flaws with antler restrictions look into it. You can also find tons of info regarding management for the purpose of trophy/mature age class deer. Do this and you will find most areas manage MD deer very different then BC.

[358mag]

the worst thing for genetics is the 4 pt season because it protects poor genetic. Old mature bucks with poor genetics are protected during the rut when they would slip up. It promotes 3pt genes and bucks with weak forks because they are tougher to identify. Dominant deer don’t need a big rack just strength and aggression. Then add in a lot of deer die when the first hit 4pts. This is one of the reasons many areas abandoned this management like I mentioned

The proven method to promote more mature deer and quality deer is restrict overall buck harvest well harvesting across all classes when you do. You end up with a higher number of bucks in turn you have more bucks. The reason Alberta and Saskatchewan produce so many big MD is partially do to lower harvest and way higher buck to doe ratio goals. I don’t know of a single area in North America that is known for producing world class MD that does it with antler restrictions

want genetics and quality deer and more mature bucks close early and late 4pt season when they are easiest to target and keep only the any buck season. You will harvest less deer, you won’t be weaning out your strong genetics by selecting the strong 4 pt genetics, and more bucks will reach the mature age. Probably not what you and other hunters want but it would work.

seriously there is tons of info on the flaws with antler restrictions look into it. You can also find tons of info regarding management for the purpose of trophy/mature age class deer. Do this and you will find most areas manage MD deer very different then BC.
One thing to remember about Alberta + Sask great Mule deer hunting and great bucks is that its LEH for 90 % of most regions . Careful what u wish for .

[Pauly]

the worst thing for genetics is the 4 pt season because it protects poor genetic. Old mature bucks with poor genetics are protected during the rut when they would slip up. It promotes 3pt genes and bucks with weak forks because they are tougher to identify. Dominant deer don’t need a big rack just strength and aggression. Then add in a lot of deer die when the first hit 4pts. This is one of the reasons many areas abandoned this management like I mentioned

The proven method to promote more mature deer and quality deer is restrict overall buck harvest well harvesting across all classes when you do. You end up with a higher number of bucks in turn you have more bucks. The reason Alberta and Saskatchewan produce so many big MD is partially do to lower harvest and way higher buck to doe ratio goals. I don’t know of a single area in North America that is known for producing world class MD that does it with antler restrictions

want genetics and quality deer and more mature bucks close early and late 4pt season when they are easiest to target and keep only the any buck season. You will harvest less deer, you won’t be weaning out your strong genetics by selecting the strong 4 pt genetics, and more bucks will reach the mature age. Probably not what you and other hunters want but it would work.

seriously there is tons of info on the flaws with antler restrictions look into it. You can also find tons of info regarding management for the purpose of trophy/mature age class deer. Do this and you will find most areas manage MD deer very different then BC.
What your saying makes sense for sure especially when you look at other provinces. Leh for late season bucks would make more sense I would think. Would limit harvest and still give opportunity. A few others made comments that we think we are experts.. but I would argue against that. Just to say we love deer and deer hunting and like to politely argue about possible ideas lol.

[2jimmy's]

Regarding genetics, there's an interesting Meat Eater podcast out there titled Landscape of Fear. It's got a couple of guys with PhD's from the Muley Fanatic Foundation. They have research that suggests nutrition for the mother while carrying her offspring can play a larger role in predicting the size of a buck than what we call "genetics". They make an interesting and compelling argument. I'm not doing them any justice passing on the Coles Notes version but whether you like the podcast or not it passed on some very interesting information.

[Walking Buffalo]

I agree the shooting of short bucks is a slob problem but it’s still an issue. But this is not the only issue with point restrictions. Like I said majority of North America abandoned the practice with deer and it goes beyond short deer. It is outdated inferior management

Hybrids are also rare WT don’t breed out MD. The only case that is an issue is MD breeding out BT where hybrids are common. Competition from WT with MD is over feed and mostly in wintering grounds. Elk are actually documented as the number one ungulate when it comes to out impacting MD numbers through competition

Valerius Geist disagrees with you, and I tend to believe in his MD/WT hypothesis.

Alberta has an issue of completely losing MD populations in the presence of WTs.
Biologists here believe that WT deer do contribute to MD population reduction through mating.
This concerns is amplified when the MD population is under other mortality stressors and especially when the population becomes smaller....

[bighornbob]

Valerius Geist disagrees with you, and I tend to believe in his MD/WT hypothesis.

Alberta has an issue of completely losing MD populations in the presence of WTs.
Biologists here believe that WT deer do contribute to MD population reduction through mating.
This concerns is amplified when the MD population is under other mortality stressors and especially when the population becomes smaller....

The issue that is always brought is people see hybrids running around and I believe Geist says they wouldn't make it to adulthood. That doesn't mean a whitetail buck breeds a mulie doe and gets her pregnant and she aborts half way through winter or gives birth to a still born or a live fawn that is so F-upped that it never lives more then a day. That would indeed start dropping the mulie populations as the mulie does are all bred but never produce a functioning fawn.

BHB

[Wild one]

Everything I have read in the past was regarding surviving hybrids. If Geist theory is like bighornbob mentioned and they are not making it to term that could throw a warp in things. If this theory is correct it would be a big game changer.

Has there been a study to prove this as fact or is it still a theory?

If this is correct it would also throw the opinions that because all does are pregnant in the present study means there is enough mule deer bucks

The issue with wildlife management it seems there is a ton of conflicting theories from both bios and hunters a like. Starting to think MD are just weak inferior deer because it seems everything impacts there numbers

[Pauly]

Everything I have read in the past was regarding surviving hybrids. If Geist theory is like bighornbob mentioned and they are not making it to term that could throw a warp in things. If this theory is correct it would be a big game changer.

Has there been a study to prove this as fact or is it still a theory?

If this is correct it would also throw the opinions that because all does are pregnant in the present study means there is enough mule deer bucks

The issue with wildlife management it seems there is a ton of conflicting theories from both bios and hunters a like. Starting to think MD are just weak inferior deer because it seems everything impacts there numbers
Geist says mule does bred by whitetail bucks produce sterile offspring. They neither stot or run but rather something more in between. Clumsy. So easier for predators to chase down. He also says where mule deer are managed for big mature bucks the mule population is stable because mature mulie bucks keep whitetail bucks at bay from mule does.

[Wild one]

Geist says mule does bred by whitetail bucks produce sterile offspring. They neither stot or run but rather something more in between. Clumsy. So easier for predators to chase down. He also says where mule deer are managed for big mature bucks the mule population is stable because mature mulie bucks keep whitetail bucks at bay from mule does.

That contradicts a lot of what I have read or been told. I was under the impression most mating between WT and MD usually did not take and hybrids were uncommon. But not surprised there is a different theory it seems differences in opinion are common with wildlife issues

Sounds like I will have to look into his theory and what it is based on

So the real question is where are these feeble hybrids when I have a rookie who is slow settling up for shots with me lol

[Pauly]

That contradicts a lot of what I have read or been told. I was under the impression most mating between WT and MD usually did not take and hybrids were uncommon. But not surprised there is a different theory it seems differences in opinion are common with wildlife issues

Sounds like I will have to look into his theory and what it is based on

So the real question is where are these feeble hybrids when I have a rookie who is slow settling up for shots with me lol
I’ve shot two hybrids in the last 6 years. And it seems to me that I mostly see them when whitetail are just moving into an new area then after a few years no more hybrids and just mostly whitetail. I do believe hybrids are fairly rare thought because I almost never see them anymore

[Pauly]

So it makes me wonder if in fact most do die at birth? Hybrids are definitely not a common thing

[walks with deer]

i saw four whitetail bucks dogging muley does in heat this year alone.

[Bugle M In]

What your saying makes sense for sure especially when you look at other provinces. Leh for late season bucks would make more sense I would think. Would limit harvest and still give opportunity. A few others made comments that we think we are experts.. but I would argue against that. Just to say we love deer and deer hunting and like to politely argue about possible ideas lol.

Yes, there are some people who like to dog others with quick smart ass responses.
(only have o go to a few threads here to see who that is, click on there name, check there posts and it becomes real obvious, real quick)

Since you and I hunt fairly close together, I can give you a few examples of the 4pt issue.
There were several years where I saw 2 really large 3pt MD, and would have had no issue shooting them, but it was 4pt season.
And yes, we have a long Any buck season, yet these 2 bucks always survived that time frame.
Goes to show that mature bucks stay really hidden and only get stupid during the rut when Does get into heat.
Only show up at the peak of the rut and cant a damn thing about it.
And they are chasing off some decent 4 pts (watched it several times, too far to shoot)
Now, if the breed the Does, then there is a chance they are passing on that 3pt gene.
Doesn't mean a male offspring will be 3pt, but the gene is still in there.

Also, we now have a 1 MD limit
This will take some time to show the benefits too, so we have to wait and see.
But when you have folks having to focus on 4pts (just like 6pt elk), it has the potential to have a majority of 4pts to not get older.
If it had been any buck, I would have tagged out on the 3pt, rather then the 4pt the next day.

That's how I look at it and why a point restriction just doesn't work the way people think it will.

[Ourea]

The thread is on the interior mule deer project, not regUlation.

The regulation debate has been drum to death for yrs on this site.

Near 100% pregnancy rate in the sample areas.
Deer numbers continue to decline.

The focus is on mortality and what those drivers are.
4 point seasons, or regulation for that matter, did not impact doe survival.
Again, the core issue of this project is to determine what is causing such high mortality rates on the DOE population.

Are fawns succumbing to excessive predation?
Are does succumbing to excessive predation?
If so.....where, when, how.
Is it habitat related where fawns are too weak to survive?
Rd mortality?
Out of season harvest?

When does are dying right now, this week, next week, next month, the question is how and where.
All the hunting regulation changes in the world won’t have a factor on this dynamic.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Yes Ourea.
Changing regulations doesn’t work.

In the last 3 decades mule deer populations have declined not just in B.C. but across much of the western states.
The states have lots of money to throw at the issue but they still haven’t been able to stop the long term trend.
Death by a thousand cuts? Who knows what it will take to reverse the trend.

SSS

[Pauly]

Yes, there are some people who like to dog others with quick smart ass responses.
(only have o go to a few threads here to see who that is, click on there name, check there posts and it becomes real obvious, real quick)

Since you and I hunt fairly close together, I can give you a few examples of the 4pt issue.
There were several years where I saw 2 really large 3pt MD, and would have had no issue shooting them, but it was 4pt season.
And yes, we have a long Any buck season, yet these 2 bucks always survived that time frame.
Goes to show that mature bucks stay really hidden and only get stupid during the rut when Does get into heat.
Only show up at the peak of the rut and cant a damn thing about it.
And they are chasing off some decent 4 pts (watched it several times, too far to shoot)
Now, if the breed the Does, then there is a chance they are passing on that 3pt gene.
Doesn't mean a male offspring will be 3pt, but the gene is still in there.

Also, we now have a 1 MD limit
This will take some time to show the benefits too, so we have to wait and see.
But when you have folks having to focus on 4pts (just like 6pt elk), it has the potential to have a majority of 4pts to not get older.
If it had been any buck, I would have tagged out on the 3pt, rather then the 4pt the next day.

That's how I look at it and why a point restriction just doesn't work the way people think it will. I’m sure you noticed the amount of bears in that country of ours.. I’ll be their in the spring looking to fill two tags. With those kinds of bear numbers in the area you can’t tell me their not hard on fawn numbers. I may not know much of anything but I do know they are proficient fawn killers. I don’t know what the bears like about it but they are top to bottom.

[skibum]

That's how I look at it and why a point restriction just doesn't work the way people think it will.

Ya, I saw a couple huge three points this season. Only four point I found was mulie skull, antlers no bigger than my hand, but four point.

[325]

Yes Ourea.
Changing regulations doesn’t work.

In the last 3 decades mule deer populations have declined not just in B.C. but across much of the western states.
The states have lots of money to throw at the issue but they still haven’t been able to stop the long term trend.
Death by a thousand cuts? Who knows what it will take to reverse the trend.

SSS

True, but unlike much of BC, it's still possible to see hundreds of mule deer in a day in many states

[wideopenthrottle]

Regarding genetics, there's an interesting Meat Eater podcast out there titled Landscape of Fear. It's got a couple of guys with PhD's from the Muley Fanatic Foundation. They have research that suggests nutrition for the mother while carrying her offspring can play a larger role in predicting the size of a buck than what we call "genetics". They make an interesting and compelling argument. I'm not doing them any justice passing on the Coles Notes version but whether you like the podcast or not it passed on some very interesting information.

yes, as you reference, it makes sense that no matter how good the genetics, poor nutrition and other major stresses on the mother will have a huge impact on the offspring that more than offsets the good genetics perhaps even detrimentally affects it...it all relates back to the limiting factor(s)...like a bottleneck is to an assembly line so can be strong environmental factors to reproduction rates and overall herd health...this is also true of humans where stresses that affect someone right down to the level of altering DNA will create a genetic mutation in the offspring as well so it kinda works both ways...the hormones associated with stress in a pregnant mother has huge effects on the development of the offspring

[Walking Buffalo]

The issue that is always brought is people see hybrids running around and I believe Geist says they wouldn't make it to adulthood. That doesn't mean a whitetail buck breeds a mulie doe and gets her pregnant and she aborts half way through winter or gives birth to a still born or a live fawn that is so F-upped that it never lives more then a day. That would indeed start dropping the mulie populations as the mulie does are all bred but never produce a functioning fawn.

BHB

Geist stated that Whitetail and Mule deer occupying the same area will lead to reduced Mule deer populations through post-partum mortality and lost recruitment.
It is almost always a WT buck breeding a MD doe. Almost never the other way.
Hybrid male fawns are typically sterile, females are typically fertile with an ability to successfully mate with either species.
Hybrid deer typically exhibit predator escape behavior that is between the running of a WT and the stotting of the MD.
This trait leaves them especially vulnerable to predators.

The end result is that nearly 100% of mating between WT and MD results in a recruitment loss from the MD population.

As WTs also exhibit more aggressive territorial behavior and a greater reproductive ability (mostly attributed to the % of yearling females that will conceive on their first rut, compared to MD young), the "balance" is quickly pushed in favour of WT deer dominating the landscape.

I've had an opportunity to observe a 400 square mile area for forty years, an area that see very limited hunting.
Forty years ago MD and WT deer were about even on population and dispersal over the landscape.
Now there are only a handful of MD herds in very specific locations, 1000's of WTs and maybe a hundred Mulies.
These last MD live in the few very steep river banks areas. I haven't seen a MD in a field for 15 years....


Everything I have read in the past was regarding surviving hybrids. If Geist theory is like bighornbob mentioned and they are not making it to term that could throw a warp in things. If this theory is correct it would be a big game changer.

Has there been a study to prove this as fact or is it still a theory?

If this is correct it would also throw the opinions that because all does are pregnant in the present study means there is enough mule deer bucks

The issue with wildlife management it seems there is a ton of conflicting theories from both bios and hunters a like. Starting to think MD are just weak inferior deer because it seems everything impacts there numbers

There are studies (wild and captive animals) that support Geist's suspicions.

[SemperAurum]

I have shot 2 hybrid bucks and both were at least 2 years old.

[Walking Buffalo]

I have shot 2 hybrid bucks and both were at least 2 years old.

Were they fertile?

[SemperAurum]

I do not know. They were both dead. I did not perform an autopsy on the testicles and It would have been kinda wierd and fruitless to give a dead buck a handyJ

[HarryToolips]

The one factor that can't really be quantified with this study unfortunately is the loss of winter range to development....it's happening in quite a few parts of reg 8 unfortunately....

[Ourea]

Dissagree/agree. Emaciated deer that succumb to lack of nutrition will be identified when their collar is retrieved.

I appreciate SSS comment...
"Death by a thousand cuts".

[Ohwildwon]

Geist stated that Whitetail and Mule deer occupying the same area will lead to reduced Mule deer populations through post-partum mortality and lost recruitment.
It is almost always a WT buck breeding a MD doe. Almost never the other way.
Hybrid male fawns are typically sterile, females are typically fertile with an ability to successfully mate with either species.
Hybrid deer typically exhibit predator escape behavior that is between the running of a WT and the stotting of the MD.
This trait leaves them especially vulnerable to predators.

The end result is that nearly 100% of mating between WT and MD results in a recruitment loss from the MD population.

As WTs also exhibit more aggressive territorial behavior and a greater reproductive ability (mostly attributed to the % of yearling females that will conceive on their first rut, compared to MD young), the "balance" is quickly pushed in favour of WT deer dominating the landscape.

I've had an opportunity to observe a 400 square mile area for forty years, an area that see very limited hunting.
Forty years ago MD and WT deer were about even on population and dispersal over the landscape.
Now there are only a handful of MD herds in very specific locations, 1000's of WTs and maybe a hundred Mulies.
These last MD live in the few very steep river banks areas. I haven't seen a MD in a field for 15 years....



There are studies (wild and captive animals) that support Geist's suspicions.


And this is why Biologists recommend a GOS for WT Does..

[Stone Sheep Steve]

True, but unlike much of BC, it's still possible to see hundreds of mule deer in a day in many states

Agreed. They are not where we are yet but so far they are not stopping the downward trend no matter how much effort and money they throw at it.

Definitely not saying that we shouldn’t do what we can to figure it out. Gotta keep trying

[boxhitch]

I have shot 2 hybrid bucks and both were at least 2 years old.Nice. Did you have time to observe any actions or traits? how they moved etc ? What 'hybrid' features did they have?

[Bugle M In]

I’m sure you noticed the amount of bears in that country of ours.. I’ll be their in the spring looking to fill two tags. With those kinds of bear numbers in the area you can’t tell me their not hard on fawn numbers. I may not know much of anything but I do know they are proficient fawn killers. I don’t know what the bears like about it but they are top to bottom.

Yup, all preds can be a factor.
Wolves and Cougars tend to be a year round killer, and I think Cats are way more effective at taking deer then wolves.
Ever watch a dog try to catch anything compared to a cat!??
And yes, bears at particular times can also be a factor.

And yes, there are a lot of them.
Tons where I was in the EK, and I mean a lot....10x the amount I would normally see.
Cant say about where you are as I didn't see sign bit then again, not much snow, but yes, there was a lot of scat around.

Not sure what the season is for wolf and coyote and cougar up there, will have to check, but if open while bear hunting, take them out also.
So nothing wrong with "getting out there"!! (lots of ways to help, just have to be out there)

[SemperAurum]

The hybrid bucks tended to move and behave more like whiteys. They lived in the thick willows and rabbit bush (muleys were always in the fir timber). The head and noses looked like a whitey. The tails were long and flat like a whitey. White fur underbelly. Antlers had the whitetail shape with the forward main beam with muley tines.

[Walking Buffalo]

The hybrid bucks tended to move and behave more like whiteys. They lived in the thick willows and rabbit bush (muleys were always in the fir timber). The head and noses looked like a whitey. The tails were long and flat like a whitey. White fur underbelly. Antlers had the whitetail shape with the forward main beam with muley tines.

Sounds like you shot whitetails.

When you shoot another hybrid, check out the metetarsal glands.
This is the surest way to determine if a deer is a hybrid without doing a dna test.

[SemperAurum]

Sounds like you shot whitetails.

When you shoot another hybrid, check out the metetarsal glands.
This is the surest way to determine if a deer is a hybrid without doing a dna test.


No,
they were not whitetails. I have shot many dozens of each type of deer in my life and know what I see when it is laying dead in front of my eyes. I watchd the damn things live side by side and feed in the same open areas for over 15 years.

I forgot to mention that the tip of the tails was black

[wideopenthrottle]

No,
they were not whitetails. I have shot many dozens of each type of deer in my life and know what I see when it is laying dead in front of my eyes. I watchd the damn things live side by side and feed in the same open areas for over 15 years.

I forgot to mention that the tip of the tails was black

I saw a group of about 8 deer near canim lake a couple years ago while moose hunting. watched them on a side hill from a road below but did not see enough wood on the 2 small bucks in the group (md 4point only IIRC). i was up with my rifle on a great rest with my buddy looking at them counting points through the binos after a few minutes he tells me "not enough wood on the bucks"...he was behind me, standing beside the truck using the door to rest the binos... as he repositioned for a more stable viewpoint his foot slid off the running board of the truck and he made a loud noise that the deer (@ 400+ yards away) heard and decided to scatter...5 or 6 of them hopped and walked up and over the hill top but 2 raised their white flags and trotted off to the timber/creek buffer...we both then exclaimed at near the same time.."hey those 2 are whitetails"....this was the first time i ever came across MD and WT being together but not in a farm field

[SemperAurum]

yup
they do indeed coexist side by side

[303savage]

I have never had a bad experience with a cougar, but had some exciting experiences with a few. We lived on the end of a public road and lots of bush to play in. opened the door and there was on on our porch, another time there was one on the lawn. there was one climbing a tree beside the road I was walking down, it was neat to see in the moon light, another one jumped off a log I was going to duck under, another time the wife and I were camped on a sand bar in a pup tent up in the north Island ad eh wife woke me up and said she could hear something around the tent. Got up in the A.M. and there were cougar track around the tent. The wife hasn't camped in a tent sense.

[358mag]

The hybrid bucks tended to move and behave more like whiteys. They lived in the thick willows and rabbit bush (muleys were always in the fir timber). The head and noses looked like a whitey. The tails were long and flat like a whitey. White fur underbelly. Antlers had the whitetail shape with the forward main beam with muley tines.
Humm Muleys always in Fir timber ? might have to check that out .
Thanks for the tip , guess been doing it wrong for over 40 years .

[SemperAurum]

Humm Muleys always in Fir timber ? might have to check that out .
Thanks for the tip , guess been doing it wrong for over 40 years .


How come people are so quick to judge, make assumptions, and call others out?

in the one and only area that I hunted deer for 15 years the muleys always came out of the fir and the whiteys always came out of the willows to feed in the same open area. capiche????

just my observation

If i had a photo or a hand drawn sketch I would post it so you can understand what I am saying more clearly.

[SemperAurum]

i know people in their 80's and 90's that have been doing all kinds of things wrong for their whole existence.

[SemperAurum]

in 15 years i never once saw a muley come out of the willows or flee into the willows. they always came out of the fir and went back into the fir when spooked.

whiteys came out of willows and fled into willows. always. no exceptions

this is just based on my observation of the area that i hunted deer. i dont know everything about deer

[Bugle M In]

An area well known for great MD hunting.
I walk down the skid road and off to the side, there are 3 MD Doe and 2 WT Doe bedded together.
Have also seen a 2pt MD and a 2pt WT walk together for 3 days straight.

[HighCountryBC]

This is a thread on the Southern Interior Mule Deer Project. Let's try and keep it on track.

[Dannybuoy]

This is a thread on the Southern Interior Mule Deer Project. Let's try and keep it on track.
I would guess that the report , results, conclusions have already been written . Just waiting to be released after the timeline has lapsed . They already know what they want to do , I suppose the only wildcard might be the indigenous community wishes

[Ourea]

Ongoing Dannybuoy. Cats and fawns will be the next to get necklaces.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

I would guess that the report , results, conclusions have already been written . Just waiting to be released after the timeline has lapsed . They already know what they want to do , I suppose the only wildcard might be the indigenous community wishes

Currently it’s a 5 year study and it’s still in the data gathering stage. 3 more years to go and hopefully it will have the funds to get extended.

SSS