Elk in Region 5

[markomoose]

Spent some time late season in 5-14 & found tracks & Elk scat in this area.Been hunting this area for a number of years & this is a first.The Elk could easily migrate down the Fraser River.I don't figure they cross the river as it hasn't froze over the last few years?Although they are very good swimmers.Wondering if anyone else has seen any Elk in this area or better yet have trailcam pictures? Cheers Mark

[warnniklz]

No pictures, my brother and buddy were hunting out there a couple years ago, ran into an indian dude who said he shot two bull elk out that way. YAY!

[srupp]

Hmmmm Hixon...yup..east of Williams lake towards Likely personally seen elk a few times..couple areas I always see elk tracks.talking to someone in the know..600 elk in region 5..
600...3 years the indians will have em all dead..then more drums more dead eagles more demands for their sacred Kobi beef from their ancestral home of Japan..
Have word of some way out west..from very reliable source.
next time I will take photos of at least the tracks..
Srupp

[bigredchev]

Yes there is. Horsefly likely area. Private property. Let’s keep em private if you know what I mean

[moosinaround]

Elk around the Alexandria reserve, from there, north towards Quesnel. Was a big dust up last year, the chief of the band, and his son killed a couple bulls in a farmers haystack. HBC thread about it. moosin

[f350ps]

I've seen a few near Kersley a couple times over the years. K

[butcher]

Seen them in the south end too. Highway 24.

[300rum700]

Elk around the Alexandria reserve, from there, north towards Quesnel. Was a big dust up last year, the chief of the band, and his son killed a couple bulls in a farmers haystack. HBC thread about it. moosin


Its still happening in Quesnel only the land owner is allowing it.

[walks with deer]

yup chad stump is the killer.

[XPEIer]

We saw a huge cow elk just south of Quesnel this summer at 1:00 in the afternoon, right beside Hwy 97. Also heard them bugling when fishing on Dewar and have seen them on private land by Horsefly,,, so yes they are around, but will be years before we get a chance on them.

xpeier

[300rum700]

We saw a huge cow elk just south of Quesnel this summer at 1:00 in the afternoon, right beside Hwy 97. Also heard them bugling when fishing on Dewar and have seen them on private land by Horsefly,,, so yes they are around, but will be years before we get a chance on them.

xpeier

I've heard 2020/2021 but at this point it's just a rumour from the BCWF so I'll believe it when I see it. I've also heard the government is scared to see what the Indians will do to the hard once there's an leh and haven't put a draw out for that reason.

[HarryToolips]

A 6 pt GOS even with that few, would put more of a fear in them...from what I hear the stewards of the land are doing, a healthy fear of man would be good in the herds of reg 5...

[srupp]

A 6 pt GOS even with that few, would put more of a fear in them...from what I hear the stewards of the land are doing, a healthy fear of man would be good in the herds of reg 5...

Hmmm very good point ...3 years ago a massive trophy bull elk was tranquilized and its massive rack was sawed off ..hmmm to remove the potential for harvest in a area along the highway by 100 mile house on private property..used to eating alongside the ranchers cattle.

Srupp

[browningboy]

The guzzlers won’t quit, why would they as they have the free pass! Damn guzzlers!

[Drillbit]

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cid:F0994A99-3FAB-4133-B1F3-5DBE95B85C5D@telus




Can't get it to post. Tried every different way I know how to.

[tigrr]

There was a heard of 7 near Horsefly. 3 years ago the natives killed a bull. They killed the second bull the next year. This year they killed 2 cow elk. 3 left for the wolves, if the natives don't get them first.

[markomoose]

Looks like most of you guys are talking the East side of the Fraser River.I'm seeing sign on the West side.(Meldrum Creek area)

[moosinaround]

Looks like most of you guys are talking the East side of the Fraser River.I'm seeing sign on the West side.(Meldrum Creek area)
Thats where I'm talking about!!

[Cyrus]

Hmmm very good point ...3 years ago a massive trophy bull elk was tranquilized and its massive rack was sawed off ..hmmm to remove the potential for harvest in a area along the highway by 100 mile house on private property..used to eating alongside the ranchers cattle.

Srupp

Yes...but it was later shot by an area rancher...

[ElliotMoose]

There is a stud of a bull with a cow along the highway on the southern end of Reg 5. A native gentleman has already asked permission several times to shoot it as it is hanging out on private property. Only a matter of time before it slips up and takes a step on to crown. Too bad as it would be cool to have an leh opportunity there some day

[walks with deer]

harry is right a 6 point season might save more than it kills by dummying them up.

[wos]

I picked up a very old elk shed in the gang ranch area years go.

[HarryToolips]

harry is right a 6 point season might save more than it kills by dummying them up.
I think they should do the same in reg 3 too....I have heard that the natives have shot quite a few in the Merritt area, I can't say first hand however, how much truth there is to this...

[CranePete]

Don’t have to go to Merritt, they’re around Crystal Lake as well. For a while, anyway...

[two-feet]

If you connect the dots on locations where elk have recently moved into it paints a nice picture in BC. In region 6 we have seen the elk firmly established with some limited private land LEH, hopefully the increase continues and we get a 6pt GOS eventually. I better learn how to bugle...

[250 sav]

I think they should do the same in reg 3 too....I have heard that the natives have shot quite a few in the Merritt area, I can't say first hand however, how much truth there is to this...

Region 3,5 and 6 should have matching 20 or so day 6 point seasons to smarten them up. I've walked up them like cattle in region 3 they had no fear.

[SemperAurum]

old Elk sheds have been found in Lac Des Roches

[REMINGTON JIM]

Seen a FEW Elk over my 16 years at Bridge Lake and Area - Spring and late Fall they are ALL Transient ELK - RJ

[bearvalley]

I've heard 2020/2021 but at this point it's just a rumour from the BCWF so I'll believe it when I see it. I've also heard the government is scared to see what the Indians will do to the hard once there's an leh and haven't put a draw out for that reason.
There’s a proposed regulation change on the table for an LEH season on private land from mid November until the middle of February.
For both bulls and cows.
This also will open Region 5 elk legally to FN’s anywhere in Region 5.
So far....legally....FN’s have only been allowed to take elk in Region 5 that are homesteaded or habituated to living on hay fields or in feed yards.
Legally they can only shoot if the problem elk are identified to FLNROD staff who then contact a shooter and the meat is to go to the local band.
That’s what was to legally be done in Region 5.....that program has been disregarded.
Watch the slaughter start when the season opens....any elk will be open to any FN’s hunter within their traditional territory.
We’ll see how this plays out...my bet is it won’t be good for the elk.

[elknut]

Years and years ago we set up a Rocky Mountain Elk chapter in 100 Mile ...Lots of turnout ..Everyone was on board for an elk relocation program in region 5...The ministry was on board ...Hunters were on board ...but the Cattlemens Association was not ...This threw a Ky bosh into the whole program ..Our relocation never happened ...All I have from this era is a hat from the Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation ...Me thinks when the season opens any ranchers will look to have the elk shot off ..They are very strongly against elk in the Cariboo...Hopefully the elk can survive this opening ...I doubt it but Ive been wrong before....Dennis

[SemperAurum]

Years and years ago we set up a Rocky Mountain Elk chapter in 100 Mile ...Lots of turnout ..Everyone was on board for an elk relocation program in region 5...The ministry was on board ...Hunters were on board ...but the Cattlemens Association was not ...This threw a Ky bosh into the whole program ..Our relocation never happened ...All I have from this era is a hat from the Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation ...Me thinks when the season opens any ranchers will look to have the elk shot off ..They are very strongly against elk in the Cariboo...Hopefully the elk can survive this opening ...I doubt it but Ive been wrong before....Dennis

Ranchers are parasitic and are always on the lookout for handouts and action for their concerns. Poor me i need a fence. Poor me my hay is being eaten. Poor poor me.....

it disgusts me that cowfolk hold so much influence over elk in this province.

[REMINGTON JIM]

Re: Elk in Region 5

http://huntingbc.ca/forum/images/shades_of_green/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by elknut http://huntingbc.ca/forum/images/shades_of_green/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/showthread.php?p=2138918#post2138918)
Years and years ago we set up a Rocky Mountain Elk chapter in 100 Mile ...Lots of turnout ..Everyone was on board for an elk relocation program in region 5...The ministry was on board ...Hunters were on board ...but the Cattlemens Association was not ...This threw a Ky bosh into the whole program ..Our relocation never happened ...All I have from this era is a hat from the Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation ...Me thinks when the season opens any ranchers will look to have the elk shot off ..They are very strongly against elk in the Cariboo...Hopefully the elk can survive this opening ...I doubt it but Ive been wrong before....Dennis

SemperAurum says

Ranchers are parasitic and are always on the lookout for handouts and action for their concerns. Poor me i need a fence. Poor me my hay is being eaten. Poor poor me.....

it disgusts me that cowfolk hold so much influence over elk in this province.



Im sure gcreek and bearvalley - There both Ranchers and WILL agree with you OR is this just a TROLL :?: :-( RJ

[Timbow]

Ranchers are parasitic and are always on the lookout for handouts and action for their concerns. Poor me i need a fence. Poor me my hay is being eaten. Poor poor me.....

it disgusts me that cowfolk hold so much influence over elk in this province.

Really? Hmmm.. I personally know on a rancher that removed almost three dozen wolves last winter. On his own dime!

I’ll tell him he has it all wrong and he should ask for handouts and every problem he has will be solved.

[SemperAurum]

Really? Hmmm.. I personally know on a rancher that removed almost three dozen wolves last winter. On his own dime!

I’ll tell him he has it all wrong and he should ask for handouts and every problem he has will be solved.

The topic is elk in region 5 not wolves

lots of folks kill wolves on their own dime

[bearvalley]

The topic is elk in region 5 not wolves

lots of folks kill wolves on their own dime

Do you know anything about the elk in Region 5?
As for your comment on ranchers being parasitic....loud talk from an anounamous face.
Floors yours loudmouth....tell me all about the elk in the Cariboo after you let us all know how you earn your living.

[SemperAurum]

How I earn my living is none of your business.

But what I can tell you is that I dont oppose the presence of elk in this province because it might affect my living. I also dont string miles of barbed wire across crown land to make my living. And i dont own animals that shit into creeks, rivers, and streams.

I despise cattle ranchers because as a group, they despise elk. Yes, you read it correctly. Despise.

Put up a god damn 8' fence and grow your own feed and keep your cattle on your own land. Be supportive of elk on crown land. Only then do you have a business that does not affect others and my respect.

[blackbart]

Fact of the matter is that cattle are not natural to bc, but then again neither are the density of people we have. Both the cattle and the people have negative impacts on the wildlife. The solutions to wildlife management issues all have winners and losers.

[bearvalley]

How I earn my living is none of your business.

But what I can tell you is that I dont oppose the presence of elk in this province because it might affect my living. I also dont string miles of barbed wire across crown land to make my living. And i dont own animals that shit into creeks, rivers, and streams.

I despise cattle ranchers because as a group, they despise elk. Yes, you read it correctly. Despise.

Put up a god damn 8' fence and grow your own feed and keep your cattle on your own land. Be supportive of elk on crown land. Only then do you have a business that does not affect others and my respect.

That’s about the kind of answer I expected from you.
Maybe look over your own shoulder.....do you think the hundreds of miles of access roads you crowed that you built helped wildlife.
Always easy to blame and mouth the other guy.
For your information I fully support elk on crown land.
The proposed LEH in Region 5 has F-all to do with crown land.
Its a private land bull/cow LEH season that runs for 3 months in 2 small areas within Region 5.
My ranch happens to be in that area.
Do I think this hunt is valid.....NO.
Once there is a licensed hunt on private land the floodgates will be opened to crown land as well.
Region 5 elk that are just now spreading out instead of being the homesteading freeloaders that they were in the past.....will be gone.
Not really what you thought a parasitic rancher would say was it?
Stay anonymous.....you can act tougher!

[SemperAurum]

Would you sing the same song if a proposal was put forth to transplant elk into the region? Now that they are all but gone in BC, perhaps we can get some from the prairies or the US of A.

I recall as a young lad watching as the men caught, bagged, and tagged live elk to be taken to other locations for repopulation. At the time I did not understand it very well but I loved elk and knew that it was a great thing despite my young age. I would have never dreamed that good ole cow farmers would start killing them and lobbying to get rid of them and have the political clout to keep them out.

[rageous]

Popcorns refilled.

[Salix]

The twists and turns some of these threads take.

Getting back to the original post, my family has a small ranch in 5-14. There has been a small heard of elk there for years. It doesn’t roam too far but comes and goes from a couple of the ranches and crown land around them.

I lived in Quesnel for years and have seen the herd out at the old ferry landing on the Quesnel river many times, especially late fall and the winter. They are around and have been around the area a long time.

To the best of my knowledge most ranchers do not mind having the elk around, kind of like the uniqueness of them. To the comment above about cattle not being natural to BC. Reality is a lot of our large game animals are not natural to BC or at least to large portions of B.C. that they currently are found. The moose is a relatively new resident to large portions of BC, only arriving in the 1900’s. White tail deer are taking over large portions of mule deer habitat, and these small herds of elk that are popping up in regions 5 and 6 are in areas that never had elk 15-20 years ago. The landscapes have changed and will continue to change and species will move and adapt to survive in the changing landscape. Hopefully we can manage for that as best possible so that at least there is something there to allow us to continue to enjoy our hunting opportunities that we have.

[bearvalley]

Would you sing the same song if a proposal was put forth to transplant elk into the region? Now that they are all but gone in BC, perhaps we can get some from the prairies or the US of A.

I recall as a young lad watching as the men caught, bagged, and tagged live elk to be taken to other locations for repopulation. At the time I did not understand it very well but I loved elk and knew that it was a great thing despite my young age. I would have never dreamed that good ole cow farmers would start killing them and lobbying to get rid of them and have the political clout to keep them out.

If you knew any of the history of the elk in Region 5 you’d know there’s always been a few isolated populations that were left over from the herds that were here in the past and died off.
Years ago a biologist that’s now long deceased figured that the elk here were not reproducing due to inbreeding.
About 25 years ago new genetics rolled in....these new elk were obviously different than the old scrubby horned strain.
The bulls were the same as you see on the hiway driving thru Jasper....or maybe Elk Island.
Government says they walked here....rumours say they came by truck.
No matter....they’re here.
This parasitic rancher enjoys seeing them here now that they’ve learned to spread out instead of the 125+ that just camped on his hayfields.

[Deaddog]

Ranchers are parasitic and are always on the lookout for handouts and action for their concerns. Poor me i need a fence. Poor me my hay is being eaten. Poor poor me.....

it disgusts me that cowfolk hold so much influence over elk in this province.

pretty clear you weren’t raised or live in the country. Ranchers and farmers are the backbone of rural life and frequently assist wildlife ( at there cost generally) making it through tough winters . Not lost in the conversation are countless hunters that request permission to hunt their lands. Judging by your insidious comments you are better suited to a condo in a large Center. Perhaps you should find a rock in your local park and crawl back under it

[SemperAurum]

Let me address one more topic and I will retire from this thread.

During the 2017 fires I was on the front lines trying to make a difference with the various crews. The loudest complaints about the actions taken by the crews,or the percived inaction, came from which group??? You guessed it. The ranchers.

Whine whine whine complain compain complain blame blame blame

The nail in the coffin for me was when one of the ranchers rubbed his hands together with glee at thought of all the new grass that will regrow so that his cattle could FREELOAD on crown land. Oh and the miles of brand new range fence erected on crown land.

[SemperAurum]

pretty clear you weren’t raised or live in the country. Ranchers and farmers are the backbone of rural life and frequently assist wildlife ( at there cost generally) making it through tough winters . Not lost in the conversation are countless hunters that request permission to hunt their lands. Judging by your insidious comments you are better suited to a condo in a large Center. Perhaps you should find a rock in your local park and crawl back under it

I was thinking of taking up illegal guiding on the Muskwa/Tuchodi. I hear there is an opening available now that the boat driver and megalomaniac are no longer a team up there.

[Deaddog]

hahaha. That’s the best you have! Back to your rock

[bearvalley]

Let me address one more topic and I will retire from this thread.

During the 2017 fires I was on the front lines trying to make a difference with the various crews. The loudest complaints about the actions taken by the crews,or the percived inaction, came from which group??? You guessed it. The ranchers.

Whine whine whine complain compain complain blame blame blame

The nail in the coffin for me was when one of the ranchers rubbed his hands together with glee at thought of all the new grass that will regrow so that his cattle could FREELOAD on crown land. Oh and the miles of brand new range fence erected on crown land.

A lot of ranchers would have burnt out and lost what they owned if they had not stayed behind and fought fires.....even tho they had been ordered to evacuate the fire zones.
Some did burn out.
You aren’t the only one that was on the front lines......but that was your choice....you were getting paid for what you did.
Like Deaddog said....crawl back under your rock.

[Deaddog]

I was thinking of taking up illegal guiding on the Muskwa/Tuchodi. I hear there is an opening available now that the boat driver and megalomaniac are no longer a team up there.

I’ll be up there for the full month of sept this year with family and friends, just like I have for near 20 years. If you have the boat skills to get that far, stop by at Deaddog creek and maybe I can give you some pointers, unfortunately for you it means hiking further than the river bank , so the pointers won’t likely help you

[SemperAurum]

It is not difficult to navigate to Deaddog Creek. I usually go further so yes, I could stop in to drink your whiskey. Tell me, Will these be new hunting "friends" that have not yet grown tired of you and your megalomaniacal antics?

[butcher]

Jesus Christ how old are you guys?

[SemperAurum]

I despise ranchers in BC that are against elk. I despise the BC cattle Association for lobbying against elk. I think it is wrong that they are able to string miles and miles of fence and let their cattle freeload on crown land.

[markomoose]

Thank you Salix !You answered my question.Over and out!

[Jagermeister]

If you knew any of the history of the elk in Region 5 you’d know there’s always been a few isolated populations that were left over from the herds that were here in the past and died off.
Years ago a biologist that’s now long deceased figured that the elk here were not reproducing due to inbreeding.
About 25 years ago new genetics rolled in....these new elk were obviously different than the old scrubby horned strain.
The bulls were the same as you see on the hiway driving thru Jasper....or maybe Elk Island.
Government says they walked here....rumours say they came by truck.
No matter....they’re here.
This parasitic rancher enjoys seeing them here now that they’ve learned to spread out instead of the 125+ that just camped on his hayfields.

The Skelton Valley elk herd was a remnant from the days of days gone by. Skelton Valley is east of McCleese Lake. To my knowledge and as told to me by Harold Mitchell, the biologist that BV is referring to, the Skelton Valley elk herd were the only remaining descendants of the elk that once roamed the interior plateau. I did see a picture taken of one at Andy Halverson's Quesnel Lake Resort sometime around 1983 or 84
Chilco Choate discovered some remanent fossilized antler bone in his guiding area. He thought it was from an elk and took it to Harold Mitchell, Region 5 Wildlife biologist in Williams Lake. Harold sent the sample away for carbon dating and confirmation (pre-DNA days). Whoever tested it confirmed that it was elk and carbon dated it to late 1700's or early 1800's.
(It was hypothesized that the immense volcanic eruptions of Mount Tambora that occurred in 1815 put so much debris into the atmosphere that it created two years with no summer. Mitchell believed that this event was cause of the immediate demise of the central interior elk.)
Chilco and Harold were ecstatic with the results. Harold contacted Ray Demarchi, his counterpart in Region 4 about the ever increasing elk herd there and the possibility of some for transplant purposes. They came to some kind of understanding and the wheels were set in motion. All that was needed were the approval of the ministry and certain assurances for the ranchers that should there be a conflict with elk, contingency plans were in place to deal with the matter. The letter writing began.
About this time, some elk from Region 4 were relocated to Region 3 in the Lytton area.
Harold along with Marty Beets developed a comprehensive plan to cover the anticipated transplant. Fish and Game Clubs were enlisted to build elk proof panels to be supplied to the ranchers on a free basis when the day came.
Many letters were written in support of the transplant, actually 143 favoring the move in total with 7 in opposition. Looked like a done deal until the writers of the 7 letters contacted the MLA, Alex Fraser, and somehow convinced him to intercede and about the transplant. The seven dissenters were seven ranchers ( originally from Wyoming and Montana, who claimed that their sheep suffered immensely from elk which broke them and forced them to come to BC to take up land where there were no buffalo or elk.)
Some will ask, "How do you know this?" Let's just say I had an inside track.

I cut this article from the Vancouver Sun from Dec. 31, 1983.



Copy of article in Vancouver Sun by Mia Farrow. The article refers to Daryl Hebert, but Harold Mitchell was the driving force along with Chilco Choate. Harold's untimely death due to helicopter crash delayed action for a year or two. Daryl Hebert was Harold Mitchell's successor.






http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/medium/elkrejectedC.jpg

Funny things happen. Elk did start showing up around the Cariboo Region. Elk appeared to the south of the Gang Ranch, elk showed up to the north of Milburn Mountain just west of Quesnel. Of course the ranchers started caterwauling that the elk were illegally transported to the area of the Gang Ranch. BV alludes to new genetics and that might be quite true. Maybe Alsager brought some elk when he illegally transported some bison from Alberta to the Gang Ranch. Who knows? Also, the Cariboo was devoid of whitetail deer when I moved to Quesnel in 1972, and there were no elk at Hixon either. So they do move.

[Timbow]

That’s for sharing some history on the interior elk. I knew they did exist in the central interior at one time in history, just never knew how they disappeared.

The first elk I saw was around the Quesnel area was a small group in a clear cut off Slender lake (Stony lake area) back in 1986 while fishing with my dad. Began to see more elk while hunting grizzly bear in the Hagen river system in the early and mid 90’s

I will share a few pictures, if I can find them, of two six point bulls that were locked together and later died. One was massive and likely the herd bull and the lesser bull was probably his offspring. Both were identical sets of antlers besides the mass.

[Elkscape]

My wife has been very lucky and drawn the private land leh bull elk tag for 5-02 jan 15 to feb 14

We are looking for any info that may help us plan this trip we need to secure some land owner permissions to make this happen. Weve reached out to the local biologists and the quesnel cattlemans association so far.

please reach out of you can help

thanks in advance

[browningboy]

Seen them on the way to Quesnel Lake years back!

[srupp]

Hmm personally seen elk 100 mile house.and just south, Horsefly, Mcleese lake, Hixon, Moorehead lake area, Wolverine LK valley.
most seen was 30 is 3 years ago Sept.
Nothing would surprise me about Dale Alsager".. nothing.
Srupp

[moosinaround]

5-14 along the Fraser, there is a healthy herd of Bugling *******s. Springfield ranch land!! Moosin

[srupp]

Hmm buddy owns ranch on east side of Springfield ranch.
srupp

[bigredchev]

My only regret was forgetting to apply. Best of luck to all

[Elkscape]

FYI. Odds for the Jan to feb hunt were 21:1

[Swamp mule]

FYI. Odds for the Jan to feb hunt were 21:1
Sent you a PM

[Elkscape]

Sent you a PM

aweome. Looking forward to talking to you.

[walks with deer]

Let me address one more topic and I will retire from this thread.

During the 2017 fires I was on the front lines trying to make a difference with the various crews. The loudest complaints about the actions taken by the crews,or the percived inaction, came from which group??? You guessed it. The ranchers.

Whine whine whine complain compain complain blame blame blame

The nail in the coffin for me was when one of the ranchers rubbed his hands together with glee at thought of all the new grass that will regrow so that his cattle could FREELOAD on crown land. Oh and the miles of brand new range fence erected on crown land.

Wow if live inan area in region three that has some elki know almost every cattle rancher in my area.. we keep them hush and protect them.. i only know one crusty old ******* that doesnt like them but he hates moose even more.
Twkemlups band has put a $15000 dollar fine on anybody killing them... and the head harvest will react instantly to any elk killing ( not bad for a guzzler as one said) in addition historicly ranchers are bad for elk.. funniest thing i seen was farmers in region 8 bitching about fence damage. I was the sherpa and tracker for two draw holders at the same time and when two magnums went off at the same time on a herd of 250 plus elk not a fence survived for a 4km radius lol... i could here fences popping for an hour after the guns went off.

Moose break my fences every spring it takes me a hour to fix them and cost me less than 100 buck.. i know have a pocket of moose living on my land the moose seem to like to cross the same spots so i did them a favour and switched over to smooth wire there and my fences break 1\10 as often. Oh i sell beef constantly that i raise my self weird i love elk..

Foresty has made a lot of mistakes with some of the fires the last couple years and as others have said the farmers are on the front line of every lightning strike.

And a little burn sure is good for the ungulates.. we did are own experiment on my freinds range there was a fence running down the middle.. we ranged one side super heavy and had no cattle on the the other.. the one side the grass and such grew real tall and dried out making it protein low. The side we heavy grazed after the oct rains held tonnes of young grass that was fertilized with phosphates from the cow shit.. guess where the deer staged up for the rut and decided to winter..in first bite grass not the bleached dead stuff. Many times with whitetails i have had to wait for the cattle to move or the deer to move to shoot.