Moose and Elk restrictions.

[Phreddy]

Can anyone explain to me why, if it's the intent to build breeding stock and add to the gene pools of these critters, the open season for moose in most areas is for 2pt spike bulls and the open season for elk is for 6pt and better? Something just doesn't add up there.

[todbartell]

spike/fork moose are a small percentage of the male moose population, so you will not impact the bull to cow ratio that much by killing some of them

6 point elk only would enable younger 4pt & 5pt bulls to live to reach (in theory) the size of the 6 pointers. Also, the larger bulls are smarter and less vulnerable to hunting pressure than the smaller satellite bulls, so not as many get killed

Having open general seasons for these animals increases hunter participation without impacting the populations in a negative way. that is my take on it, but I could be a bit off

[Sharkey]

It was my understanding that Spike/Fork moose are considered the 'runts' of the population and don't stand a chance in rut season. I could be wrong - it's happened before ;-).
~D

[burger]

It was my understanding that Spike/Fork moose are considered the 'runts' of the population and don't stand a chance in rut season. I could be wrong - it's happened before ;-).
~D


I heard the same thing. They are genetically inferior to the standard 1.5-2.5 year bull, hence the smaller rack. So I am assuming they would like those animals culled as to not bring down the genetics of the moose pop.

[tmarschall]

OK.... so elk don't have any "inferior" stock. All the elk produced will sooner or later become legal 6 X 6 bulls. I had no idea that mother nature suspended the laws of natural secletion for elk.
I wonder what "genius" sold that load of manure to wildlife branch? Phreddy.... your question is very legitimate and it has NO sound bilogical answer. Hunters have been taken out of the equation to help remove "genetically inferior" elk from the population.... predators and starvation have to do all the work. Thats my two cents worth!!!!

[diggerpax]

http://www.dfw.state.or.us/ODFWhtml/InfoCntrWild/PDFs/Elk%20Planfinal.PDF

This website has a full explanation of the point limit seasons. Hope this helps.

[tmarschall]

Page 26, paragraph 3 pretty much echoes my thoughts.... "Minimum antler point regulations are generally viewed as counterproductive by wildlife managers." I would grant the the implementation of the 6 point regulation after the harsh winter kills of the mid 90's may have been good then, but they should have been scrapped a year or two later, the counterproductivity of the regulations is in effect now. Yes, many herds are on the increase and habitat decline is blamed for the herds not increasing more than they have. It is time for the 6-point regulation to take its share of the blame for holding back herd productivity!!

[J_T]

The spike-fork horn moose is typically a yearling. You don't impact your population by hunting your yearling males.

The elk 6pt season has more to do with politics than wildlife management.

[Jagermeister]

This spike/fork horn concept was first implemented in Region 7 in 1981. Ken Childs was the regional biologist and he was pressured by the guides and outfitters to arrest the decline in numbers of mature bull moose in that region, particularly in the lower end of 7A. The G&Os enlisted Dr. Tony Bubenick to front their case. What was found was that the average age of bulls had dropped to the 4 to 5 year range and this is detrimental to good animal husbandry. For top breeding quality, the prime breeding bulls are preferred to should be aged in the 7 to 9 year bracket. Dr. Bubenick's theory is much like how a rancher manages his cow herd, he keeps prime breeding bulls and culls the younger animals. Immature breeding bulls have a tendency to only impregnate a cow so that she has a single offspring, rather than twins as the prime bull would produce. Obviously, this is dependant on the cow as well, because in her first term, it is most likely for her to have a single calf and this might be for her second term too. After that she should be producing twins and maybe triplets. An interesting point that Bubenick stated is that a cow moose, during the course of her lifetime, (based on no mortality and ideal breeding conditions, i.e. prime bull) would have an prodigy ancestry line that would number 163 direct descendants.
So, giving this concept, you would think that it would be applied to elk management as well. IMO, I think that the wildlife managers do not want to increase elk numbers because of the elk impact on the ranching industry. Bull elk can be quite disruptive to domestic cow breeding as they will challenge a Angus or Hereford bull when the cow comes into estrus.

[Caveman]

The spike-fork bull is only 35% of the male population from the previous years offspring. This ensures that 65% should be able to survive to breed in years to come, less accidental shooting and preditor kills, etc. The spike fork is not the runt, just a different horn formation. it will still run in the neighbourhood of 330lbs, dressed and skinned as will the three point.. A spike-fork bull can service 1-3 cows but a mature bull will service 6-8 cows, therefore the reasoning to try to control the taking of mature bulls from the herds. You'll see the spike-fork restriction where the populations are lower in the effort to keep it sustain it's self. Where the population is healthy and abundant there will be a any bull season, so if in Chetwyn last year there was a big winter kill tick problem, you may see a change in the open season in certain hard hit management units. God Forbid!!!

[Fisher-Dude]

Hmm following the moose spike/fork restriction reasoning, then why the heck are we shooting tri-palms and 10 pointers?

I think everyone knows my desire - open all bull moose and all 3 point elk province-wide for coincidal seasons to spread the pressure out, and make the aggregate bag limit for elk and moose one (ie either an elk or a moose but not both). The result: better hunter retention, recruitment, and re-recruitment of those who left hunting when LEH and restrictive seasons were implemented.

Hunters (over 90% of whom are meat hunters in BC) would have a much better chance of getting their winter's supply of meat for their families. Instead, we manage for trophy animals (the type of animals that the G/Os love to sell to fat-cat foreign hunters).

We had 3 point elk/any bull moose GOS when BC had twice as many hunters and similar ungulate populations, why the hell do we need LEH and heavy restrictions now? :mad:

[CanuckShooter]

Hmm following the moose spike/fork restriction reasoning, then why the heck are we shooting tri-palms and 10 pointers?

I think everyone knows my desire - open all bull moose and all 3 point elk province-wide for coincidal seasons to spread the pressure out, and make the aggregate bag limit for elk and moose one (ie either an elk or a moose but not both). The result: better hunter retention, recruitment, and re-recruitment of those who left hunting when LEH and restrictive seasons were implemented.

Hunters (over 90% of whom are meat hunters in BC) would have a much better chance of getting their winter's supply of meat for their families. Instead, we manage for trophy animals (the type of animals that the G/Os love to sell to fat-cat foreign hunters).

We had 3 point elk/any bull moose GOS when BC had twice as many hunters and similar ungulate populations, why the hell do we need LEH and heavy restrictions now? :mad:

X2 >>>> and the sooner the leh goes the way of the doe-doe bird the better.

[brotherjack]

Hmm following the moose spike/fork restriction reasoning, then why the heck are we shooting tri-palms and 10 pointers?

I think everyone knows my desire - open all bull moose and all 3 point elk province-wide for coincidal seasons to spread the pressure out, and make the aggregate bag limit for elk and moose one (ie either an elk or a moose but not both). The result: better hunter retention, recruitment, and re-recruitment of those who left hunting when LEH and restrictive seasons were implemented.

Hunters (over 90% of whom are meat hunters in BC) would have a much better chance of getting their winter's supply of meat for their families. Instead, we manage for trophy animals (the type of animals that the G/Os love to sell to fat-cat foreign hunters).

We had 3 point elk/any bull moose GOS when BC had twice as many hunters and similar ungulate populations, why the hell do we need LEH and heavy restrictions now? :mad:

X3 for me....

[CanuckShooter]

The spike-fork bull is only 35% of the male population from the previous years offspring. This ensures that 65% should be able to survive to breed in years to come, less accidental shooting and preditor kills, etc. The spike fork is not the runt, just a different horn formation. it will still run in the neighbourhood of 330lbs, dressed and skinned as will the three point.. A spike-fork bull can service 1-3 cows but a mature bull will service 6-8 cows, therefore the reasoning to try to control the taking of mature bulls from the herds. You'll see the spike-fork restriction where the populations are lower in the effort to keep it sustain it's self. Where the population is healthy and abundant there will be a any bull season, so if in Chetwyn last year there was a big winter kill tick problem, you may see a change in the open season in certain hard hit management units. God Forbid!!!

Where did you get this 35% figure?{of the male pop from last years breeding}??

The last time I asked one of our local biologists what the cow/bull ratio was I was told bulls were around 25%..when I asked what % of that they figured for spike-forked...she laughed !!

[Jagermeister]

Fisher Dude said, "............Instead, we manage for trophy animals (the type of animals that the G/Os love to sell to fat-cat foreign hunters)...."
And that is the crux of the matter, this is exactly why we have the LEH. This is the reason that Region 5 has no moose season for spike/fork horns, so all the moose will get big. Too many biologists employed as guides and outfitters. With the rise in the CDN$, it may decrease their numbers and hunting in Canada will become too expense.
And quoted from Canuckshooter, "The last time I asked one of our local biologists what the cow/bull ratio was I was told bulls were around 25%..when I asked what % of that they figured for spike-forked...she laughed !!"
I think that the big problem for the southern end of Region 7A is that there is still a calf season, it brings in too much hunting pressure, much like the two week open season in Region 5 had on mature bulls and lead to the demise of an open season.

[Fisher-Dude]

Where did you get this 35% figure?{of the male pop from last years breeding}??

The last time I asked one of our local biologists what the cow/bull ratio was I was told bulls were around 25%..when I asked what % of that they figured for spike-forked...she laughed !!

I believe Caveman's figure is in the ballpark - I had figures for region 8 that said the spike/forks were 35 - 40% of FIRST YEAR bulls (ie 1.5 year olds). The rest of the yearlings are 3 point or larger. It certainly isn't 35% of the entire bull population - it MIGHT be 4% of the entire bull population, which would make it about 1.25% of the entire moose population - dismal indeed.

I just want a moose for the freezer. Hell I'll take one every second or third year even. But I ain't gettin one under these rules. :(