Kamloops mule deer

[ratherbefishin]

We got a couple of nice spikes thanksgiving weekend,lots of does but no big bucks.We heard of someone seeing a 5 point but saw nothing of any size ourselves . We’re done but I’m wondering if the big bucks are starting to show now..with that amount of does,the bucks are going to be there sometime

[ghost]

i going to find out next week

[Husky7mm]

Myself and my crew shoot every spike we see too. We never see any big bucks where we hunt. I am always wondering what is up with that?

[Weatherby Fan]

Myself and my crew shoot every spike we see too. We never see any big bucks where we hunt. I am always wondering what is up with that?

you must be to noisy when your walking !!!!! :wink:

[Throwaway]

Myself and my crew shoot every spike we see too. We never see any big bucks where we hunt. I am always wondering what is up with that?

LOL. Too funny.

[ratherbefishin]

One was my granddaughters first deer...the other was my sons..I never loaded my rifle...the big bucks tend to show up a bit later,which was the reason for my question...but thanks for the advice on deer management anyway..

[todbartell]

Myself and my crew shoot every spike we see too. We never see any big bucks where we hunt. I am always wondering what is up with that?

are you suggesting that killing a 1.5yr old buck is reducing the mature buck dynamic in the population?

[Husky7mm]

One was my granddaughters first deer...the other was my sons..I never loaded my rifle...the big bucks tend to show up a bit later,which was the reason for my question...but thanks for the advice on deer management anyway..

Hey congrates to the youth. Its a shared resource and everyone participating has different goals. Management feels they have done there job if they provide someone an opportunity for a deer no matter what the size. It is always nice to hear of youth hunting, it would have been a good part of your story too.

[Husky7mm]

are you suggesting that killing a 1.5yr old buck is reducing the mature buck dynamic in the population?
Absolutely. Mature bucks are such a small part of the population because most never live to see maturity, the recreational demand is too high. In poor access areas I have passed on countless deer and see a good bunch of them next year a little bigger and a little closer to maturity. If I choose to shoot them because they are legal or I am only hunting for meat or I have my kids shoot them then that natural progression halts. Very basic.....

[todbartell]

Wouldn't focusing deer harvest on any buck, leave more larger 4 point bucks roaming the landscape? Remember that the average hunter just wants to fill the freezer with some good meat. In the 5 management units around Kamloops (3-19, 3-20, 3-27, 3-28, 3-29) there is 2300 mule deer taken annually, averaging five years of harvest, 90% of which are bucks. I do not think there is a concern of lack of mule deer sperm supply. Mature bucks do not have to be in high numbers to get does pregnant.

We all love to see big bucks and lots of them, but we should not look down on fellow hunters for shooting any deer they legally can harvest. If you want to hold out for a large buck, or whatever buck, that's your choice. You don't need a 4 point only season to make that decision for you

[Elkaholic]

I think good ol uncle ted has a good video on this topic. Ill find it an link it here. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DFMWKn30_rY

He hits home on some very good points that come to play in this very thread.

[todbartell]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DFMWKn30_rY

[303savage]

Myself and my crew shoot every spike we see too. We never see any big bucks where we hunt. I am always wondering what is up with that? If you shoot every spike you see they will never grow into big buck :-)

[Ajsawden]

If you shoot every spike you see they will never grow into big buck :-)
If you shoot every spike you see you're either poaching, or you only saw one spike. The one spike you shot won't become a big buck, but the 11 spikes you didn't see will get bigger. Some may get shot as twos, some may get shot as threes etc.

[todbartell]

BC record book has 1500 mule deer entered. All those bucks survived harvest until they were jaw droppers. Majority were harvested by Joe Sixpack looking for any buck

[Bugle M In]

Wouldn't focusing deer harvest on any buck, leave more larger 4 point bucks roaming the landscape? Remember that the average hunter just wants to fill the freezer with some good meat. In the 5 management units around Kamloops (3-19, 3-20, 3-27, 3-28, 3-29) there is 2300 mule deer taken annually, averaging five years of harvest, 90% of which are bucks. I do not think there is a concern of lack of mule deer sperm supply. Mature bucks do not have to be in high numbers to get does pregnant.

We all love to see big bucks and lots of them, but we should not look down on fellow hunters for shooting any deer they legally can harvest. If you want to hold out for a large buck, or whatever buck, that's your choice. You don't need a 4 point only season to make that decision for you

Yup, I agree.
I do pass up on smaller bucks hoping that one day it will turn into a bigger buck.
That being said, I know many fellow hunters would take it.
I don't generally hunt the any buck season any more, as I never found it a good time for finding larger bucks within the limited time I have to
get out, so I wait til 4 pt season only.

All being said, no one should look down on a person taking spike bucks.
After all, the main intent of hunting is putting meat in the freezer, which is better earlier on in the season then later for sure.
For someone like me, trying to look for mature bucks, and the meat not being on the top of the list at this time of season, it is easy for me
to pass up deer, even legal 4 pts looking for the bigger buck etc.
It is what it is, I am happy for someone who gets their deer, especially a spiker.
Now with the new limits on MD, we should see a difference in coming years.
Some will continue on as always, while others may now hold out longer.
And holding out usually means "2 stay in the bush" and the one in the hand is passed up!

Hopefully this change in Regs may mean a few less guys out there come late November etc??? (they have tagged out).
I do hope that eventually Regions like R5 open up again during Nov 10th thru 20th again, as I definitely have seen the increased pressure
on other MU's in R3 that surround R5 at that time, and that I feel really hurts those MU's, imo.

So, just remember, we have just had a major change to MD limits, so lets all just give it it's due process and time to take effect.
If you want to hunt still, but have tagged out, well there is a bunch of wolves that need to be removed.
Just, lets not judge each other please....
We have too much of that going on already "outside of the hunting community".
Enjoy and Unite!!

[finngun]

Those Really big bucks are so elusive so hard to find (smart) than average Joe who runs his truck along forest road hardly ever see them..bucks are mostly moving at dark..I,ll be hunting here around 20+years ,,,,seen maybe 3-4 king of the forest,,never have real chance to shoot one,,,I,m just filling my freeser,,,not after big rack. :redface:

[todbartell]

Now with the new limits on MD, we should see a difference in coming years.

rising ungulate population that will overbrowse diminishing winter range. Wolves and cougars will take what we are no longer are allowed to

[Husky7mm]

Wouldn't focusing deer harvest on any buck, leave more larger 4 point bucks roaming the landscape? Remember that the average hunter just wants to fill the freezer with some good meat. In the 5 management units around Kamloops (3-19, 3-20, 3-27, 3-28, 3-29) there is 2300 mule deer taken annually, averaging five years of harvest, 90% of which are bucks. I do not think there is a concern of lack of mule deer sperm supply. Mature bucks do not have to be in high numbers to get does pregnant.

We all love to see big bucks and lots of them, but should not look down on fellow hunters for shooting any deer they legally can harvest. If you want to hold out for a large buck, or whatever buck, that's your choice. You don't need a 4 point only season to make that decision for you


I have heard all this parroted plenty of times, we even agree on most, however I just brought it up as food for thought albeit blunt, and what I thought was rather humorous. I have heard a lot of people on here talking out of both side of their mouth on the topic of not being able to find a big/mature or respectable deer and shooting the ONLY deer they came across. I find this an oxymoron. In order for mature bucks to “show” themselves or “come down” from anywhere some of them need to live long enough to be able to do that. A quick look at the record books shows that is not happening as of late but a strong harvest continues. A study in the EK showed as low as 3 bucks per 100 does which strongly suggest over harvest of the male component. That being said they still had decent fawn recruitment which means even those ratios work. Is it healthy? Is that considered good management? I doubt it.
I see more restrictions coming....

Anyways to the OP, seen you posting as long as I can remember. I really shouldn't of sent this your way, I am not trolling you. Happy hunting to you and the grandkids, myself I will be out to the bitter end if it means I am hunting 1 more day, and if it means I come up dry thats fine too.

[horshur]

rising ungulate population that will overbrowse diminishing winter range. Wolves and cougars will take what we are no longer are allowed to

Managers still have LEH as a tool if the season changes do actually make a difference in population.
What I have noticed is more hunters during any buck here then in the past. Thanksgiving weekend is busy.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

I have heard all this parroted plenty of times, we even agree on most, however I just brought it up as food for thought albeit blunt, and what I thought was rather humorous. I have heard a lot of people on here talking out of both side of their mouth on the topic of not being able to find a big/mature or respectable deer and shooting the ONLY deer they came across. I find this an oxymoron. In order for mature bucks to “show” themselves or “come down” from anywhere some of them need to live long enough to be able to do that. A quick look at the record books shows that is not happening as of late but a strong harvest continues. A study in the EK showed as low as 3 bucks per 100 does which strongly suggest over harvest of the male component. That being said they still had decent fawn recruitment which means even those ratios work. Is it healthy? Is that considered good management? I doubt it.
I see more restrictions coming....

Anyways to the OP, seen you posting as long as I can remember. I really shouldn't of sent this your way, I am not trolling you. Happy hunting to you and the grandkids, myself I will be out to the bitter end if it means I am hunting 1 more day, and if it means I come up dry thats fine too.


I believe that very low buck to doe was in the X zone and changes were made to increase the ratio ( removed the short-lived region 4 any buck season). Haven’t see the latest ratios from that zone. Anyone seen them?

SSS

[HarryToolips]

^^^I was going to say that R4 is now 4 pt only MD the whole season, so it's gotta be better than that one would think..

[Stone Sheep Steve]

^^^I was going to say that R4 is now 4 pt only MD the whole season, so it's gotta be better than that one would think..

And I believe the any buck season was very short lived. Off the top of my head ..2 years maybe?

[280 77]

We take the kids hunting the EK every second year where it is 4point only for mulies . Every mulie buck we see (and we see a few) are mature 2 and 3 points.This is where there are low buck to doe ratio's .
So guess who's genetics are being passed on . Good luck with your 4 point season if they eliminate any buck .
By the way I pass on young bucks and only hunt mature bucks , some seasons I eat tag soup.

[northof49]

Sorry to bring this up....but it is likely the 4 legged hunters that are having the biggest impact on whether or not mule deer bucks survive to maturity or not and they hunt year round. As long as the predator numbers are not in balance the other measures don’t make much difference. Dogs/cats put a big dent in quantity of mule deer out there and number of mature bucks. Need more balance there first.

[ratherbefishin]

Only 15% of deer mortality is attributed to hunting so whether we hunt or not makes virtualy no diferene to the deer population.My 16 year old granddaughter who shot her first deer which was a spike had been practicing, shooting 22’s and moving up to my 6.5 swede ,shooting that until she was proficient enough to shoot at a live animal.When we saw the spike,which was about 125 yards away,facing head on, we passed her the rifle and told her sit down,pretend she was shooting targets and take her shot when she was ready...she missed the first shot,said a very unladylike like ‘damn’ ,reloaded and fired again,the buck was hit dead center right in the brisket and dropped in its tracks.She ran all the way uphill yelling ‘YES’! and fist pumping,held up the buck whipped out her smart phone and took a selfie and sent by to all her very closest 425 friends.I think we were just as thrilled as she was to see a young lady kill her first deer...she insisted on helping with gutting and hanging it...of course,we could have told her not to shoot because it was a spike...when we got back I bought her a pink hunting knife and told her she had to use her own knife after this...( I don’t shoot spikes anymore ,shot my share of deer and am quite happy to just be out with my kids and seeing game,and occaisionaly taking a nice fork if it uphill( downhill,I just look at them)

[Squire]

Myself and my crew shoot every spike we see too. We never see any big bucks where we hunt. I am always wondering what is up with that?

I took your tongue-in-cheek comment more as a hunting lesson than a management lesson. I learned many years ago that I would come across big bucks after passing on smaller ones. The simple act of shooting the small one precludes the encounter with the big one. No judgement; just a reality of hunting.

[Darksith]

We take the kids hunting the EK every second year where it is 4point only for mulies . Every mulie buck we see (and we see a few) are mature 2 and 3 points.This is where there are low buck to doe ratio's .
So guess who's genetics are being passed on . Good luck with your 4 point season if they eliminate any buck .
By the way I pass on young bucks and only hunt mature bucks , some seasons I eat tag soup.
your probably not hunting the late season with the kids? In the EK the mulies stay up high until pushed down by snow, its not that they aren't there, its just that they aren't there yet

Mucks go into winter in the worst possible condition...no body fat, tired and beat up. To get a MD to 6 or 7 years old is quite a feet, he has to have everything go well for him year after year. Dodge humans, predators and not get killed by a bigger buck. I believe the biggest impact we could have on creating more mature MD is reduction of predators and habitat restoration. I still see lots of bucks smaller in Nov in reg 3, but the big boys develop habits that allow them to survive, its not that they think to survive they just do what their habits do and those habits lend themselves to staying off roads, away from predators and probably live in areas with strong winter feed

[ratherbefishin]

It’s interesting to observe deer savy,in the spring a lot of fawns are killed on roads but I watched a big buck stand beside the road looking both ways to see when there were no more cars coming

[Bugle M In]

Managers still have LEH as a tool if the season changes do actually make a difference in population.
What I have noticed is more hunters during any buck here then in the past. Thanksgiving weekend is busy.


rising ungulate population that will overbrowse diminishing winter range. Wolves and cougars will take what we are no longer are allowed to

Yes, some areas come Remembrance day weekend is a hell of a lot more busy.
Just depends where and how close those spots are to other areas that are closed down on that weekend.

And yes, one big thing is seeing wolf sign where I never ever seen them during "all the years I hunted in some areas".

Yes, many big bucks in the record books from many moons ago, but, there are still some big bucks taken every year.
But many folks no longer put them in the books or even want to tell anyone.

So yes, the new reg limit should help, but yes, we might just be offering more feed for the preds?
I suppose that is possible.
Only way to know is to get a cull on preds going.
If not, I don't know if we will ever know what will work as far as management in the future.

[northof49]

^^^We already know...just look how quickly the cariboo responded to the recent wolf culls.....now implement in other regions on larger scale and add in cats as well.

[horshur]

Only 15% of deer mortality is attributed to hunting so whether we hunt or not makes virtualy no diferene to the deer population.My 16 year old granddaughter who shot her first deer which was a spike had been practicing, shooting 22’s and moving up to my 6.5 swede ,shooting that until she was proficient enough to shoot at a live animal.When we saw the spike,which was about 125 yards away,facing head on, we passed her the rifle and told her sit down,pretend she was shooting targets and take her shot when she was ready...she missed the first shot,said a very unladylike like ‘damn’ ,reloaded and fired again,the buck was hit dead center right in the brisket and dropped in its tracks.She ran all the way uphill yelling ‘YES’! and fist pumping,held up the buck whipped out her smart phone and took a selfie and sent by to all her very closest 425 friends.I think we were just as thrilled as she was to see a young lady kill her first deer...she insisted on helping with gutting and hanging it...of course,we could have told her not to shoot because it was a spike...when we got back I bought her a pink hunting knife and told her she had to use her own knife after this...( I don’t shoot spikes anymore ,shot my share of deer and am quite happy to just be out with my kids and seeing game,and occaisionaly taking a nice fork if it uphill( downhill,I just look at them)

Sorry about these strange times when you have to justify shooting a buck..it is ridiculous. Past traditions and current science defends this. Young buck is almost always better table fare as well. You are justifiably proud.

[horshur]

Yes, some areas come Remembrance day weekend is a hell of a lot more busy.
Just depends where and how close those spots are to other areas that are closed down on that weekend.

And yes, one big thing is seeing wolf sign where I never ever seen them during "all the years I hunted in some areas".

Yes, many big bucks in the record books from many moons ago, but, there are still some big bucks taken every year.
But many folks no longer put them in the books or even want to tell anyone.

So yes, the new reg limit should help, but yes, we might just be offering more feed for the preds?
I suppose that is possible.
Only way to know is to get a cull on preds going.
If not, I don't know if we will ever know what will work as far as management in the future.
If you truly want a big deer...quit hunting popular and traditional areas..and when your hunting dont tip over the first 4 point you see...stick too your guns. Live up to what you claim...otherwise you may as well like the rest of us shoot the first legal buck that opportunity presents and enjoy the steaks.

[Bugle M In]

If you truly want a big deer...quit hunting popular and traditional areas..and when your hunting dont tip over the first 4 point you see...stick too your guns. Live up to what you claim...otherwise you may as well like the rest of us shoot the first legal buck that opportunity presents and enjoy the steaks.
?????????????????????????????WTF

Think you need to go back a few pages and see how I operate!!!
I don't tag out on MD very often at all!!!
I have plenty of chances to take "legal 4 pts" every season (maybe once in the last 20 years I couldn't)….
BUT, I always pass on them!!

Not a huge MD meat fan anyways, and only so much pepperoni I am willing to eat!
So, I do look for the bigger bucks, always passing up on the average bucks.

I just said I do not begrudge folks who take small bucks, because the main reason we hunt is for the meat.
My problem if I can find a huge boned buck, and I blame no one else because they think and hunt differently!
Now, a 3pt bull elk, if legal, I would drop, because I really like the meat..

So, everyone has there own standards, and we need to accept each others choices.
Especially if they are legal.

(I do wish folks would take the time to read the full posts)

[Bugle M In]

This debate of MD is continuous it seems.
Basically there are 2 opinions.
The question has always been, are we growing deer for "opportunity hunts" or for "trophy hunts"?

Right now, having an any buck season til end of Oct is obviously for Opportunity.
Cant blame each other if the Ministry does a piss poor job of Pred Control and Forestry Management etc that goes against having a better MD
population.

If we hunt for Trophy, well then, expect a shit load of hunters come Nov 1st (on top of a Region being shut down for 10 days), all in the same
areas, all at once!
(atleast right now, with the new changes, some hunters are already done, and I am expecting my area to be a little less busy come next week
because of that fact)

On top of that, as an example, many GO's were all really happy when they got to see the 6pt rule implemented in the EK, so that their
customers would now have better opportunity to trophy classed bulls (like 350 class bulls...lol...and that was 1st hand conversation with them)

All that happened is everyone targeted the 6pt bulls now, and I can tell you that many of the GO's up there are now crying the blues.
Cant even find legal 6pts, let alone a "trophy class bull"!

So lots of opinions on here about "how and what we should be hunting".
Lots of "theory" going on here that does seem "rational" etc.
But, the evidence suggests the opposite. (my example above)

Many other things need to change before we consider another "hunter regulated change".

And, by the way, I have seen a couple of monster MD (like something you would have seen taken in the late 1800's) taken in the past few years.
And, they were taken in areas that are not remote, but rather well known by the experienced MD hunter.
Just taken a little off the normal beat and path...but not by much!

Nocturnal, and Preds are something to really keep in mind here.

[sakohunter]

I find this topic interesting based on the fact that the carrying capacity in a region/area is the most important factor in survival of ungulates. So whether we harvest any buck or older bucks the area can only sustain so many deer. One of the many problems that is concern to me is the buck to doe ratio. In our province it is so low compared to other parts of the the mule deer world. In order to create more trophy class deer you need more bucks and our province doesn't even come close to the great mule deer states. In order to better build a stronger deer ratio we as hunter may have to make choices on the type of bucks we wish to see in the forest and how often we harvest them. Changing over to a more aggesive harvest of Whitetail deer would allow a higher Mule deer winter survival to the detriment of the Whitetail. I am starting to ramble sorry and good and safe hunting this season

[HarryToolips]

^^^^the MOE objective is 20 bucks:100 does - with the change to only 1 MD buck allowed per licence between regions 3 - 8, we should see the buck to doe ratio increase, with many hunters holding out for bigger bucks..

[sakohunter]

At 20 bucks to 100 does that is still lower than the great mule states. I am not saying that is a bad number if that is what the MOE determines is the right ratio for the carrying capacity, but why have other managment area tried to get higher numbers of bucks? Quality muley bucks means more hunter dollars.

[Bugle M In]

My X's father was 4th gen out of Lumby.
And there are big bucks in the record book of BC at the time that came from there, both MD and WT and that family has several of them in the
books.
3 things factored into that, according to him.
The seasons were later (that's a big one)
The next was, there was a hell of a lot more snow at that point, so factor that in with a later season, and you have a lot more deer in a
concentrated area.
Last point, they were taken on private farmland that only they could hunt!

I am going into an area that I know has had big bucks for many years, but now, there is as of yet, no snow.
30 years ago, there would be a minimum of 12" down low and up top would be 3 ft.
Don't think the new era tends to lead to finding big bucks in small areas any more.
They are scattered everywhere still.

On top of that, I know of several bucks that should be up in the books, way up there in the MD category, but the hunters refuse to have them
entered.

Is it like it once was.....probably not, but that's most likely due to all the development over the past 50 years, plus previously mentioned factors.
Gang Ranch does not sound like the area it once used to be, and I doubt there are as many folks hunting it today then at the high point in
the 70's.
And also like has been said in the past, the white elephant in the room is also ranching, and ranchers not wanting competition.

People who have the time and dedication to get out lots, and hit new areas, do find better big buck opportunities.
And yes, if you want a big buck, you can no longer tag out on the 1st buck you see.
Good chance you will eat tag soup, but at least you give yourself a chance.
Just remember, you cant eat the antlers, and is why many don't care if BC is a trophy province.

[HarryToolips]

At 20 bucks to 100 does that is still lower than the great mule states. I am not saying that is a bad number if that is what the MOE determines is the right ratio for the carrying capacity, but why have other managment area tried to get higher numbers of bucks? Quality muley bucks means more hunter dollars.
Hard to say, but apparently they are finding most if not all does in most areas that have been studied pregnant... which is hard to believe with the amount of does you see vs bucks but this is what I have been told..

[ratherbefishin]

All those fawns you see in the spring came from somewhere,and it wasn’t Immaculate conception...I rarely see big bucks during the year,only does and fawns but right now they are everywhere.

[Bugle M In]

All those fawns you see in the spring came from somewhere,and it wasn’t Immaculate conception...I rarely see big bucks during the year,only does and fawns but right now they are everywhere.

Yup, I would agree.
And I think while the MD study was underway at the start of the program, that all Does were prego!
So they are getting bred.

And healthy Does have 2 fawns.
Now, I see lots of Does with 2 offspring, but not all.
And what about come winter, after the season???
Do all the fawns make it?????
And yes, as the OP, I am talking about Kammy.
Also, Cougars are not on the radar as much as wolves when it comes to discussions etc, but many studies seem in the end,
blame Cougars over wolves as the issue.

I think that's where we might see a problem...…(fawn survival and migration)
That study should be interesting when made public.

[Bugle M In]

At 20 bucks to 100 does that is still lower than the great mule states. I am not saying that is a bad number if that is what the MOE determines is the right ratio for the carrying capacity, but why have other managment area tried to get higher numbers of bucks? Quality muley bucks means more hunter dollars.

Here is the newest draft plan for 2020 - 2025 MD management Plan from our near USA neighbors of Idaho.
15 bucks or greater to 100 does.

Long read, but addresses almost exactly the same concerns as here, imo.

https://idfg.idaho.gov/sites/default/files/draft-management-plan-mule-deer-may-30-2019.pdf (wlmailhtml:{F94F37EA-C757-47B6-B276-E88B01693CE0}mid://00000004/!x-usc:https://idfg.idaho.gov/sites/default/files/draft-management-plan-mule-deer-may-30-2019.pdf)

[Bugle M In]

Here is the newest draft plan for 2020 - 2025 MD management Plan from our near USA neighbors of Idaho.
15 bucks or greater to 100 does.

Long read, but addresses almost exactly the same concerns as here, imo.

https://idfg.idaho.gov/sites/default/files/draft-management-plan-mule-deer-may-30-2019.pdf (wlmailhtml:{F94F37EA-C757-47B6-B276-E88B01693CE0}mid://00000004/!x-usc:https://idfg.idaho.gov/sites/default/files/draft-management-plan-mule-deer-may-30-2019.pdf)

Some teasers…….

“Mule deer populations are ultimately limited by the quality and quantity of habitat”

Government Direction >>>>>> Objectives>>>>>>>>Results Driven

Hunter surveys indicate Idaho hunters strongly value opportunities to harvest mature bucks as well as opportunities to hunt mule deer annually.
______________________
"Unlike antlerless harvest, hunter success and harvest of bucks tend to follow the population trajectory, rather than influence that trajectory. Existing information suggests that <5 bucks:100 does are required for mule deer breeding purposes. However, opinion surveys suggest that hunter satisfaction declines at buck:doe ratios less than 15:100. IDFG will continue to provide a range of buck hunting opportunities (Table 2) across the state to meet the various motivations and preferences of Idaho mule deer hunters. Because of varying social attitudes and preferences, mule deer population characteristics, and habitat variability across Idaho, no single management tool is prescribed for achieving buck objectives. Rather, a variety of tools including season length and timing, weapon restrictions, area specific tags, controlled hunts, and others, will be evaluated (see hunter congestion section)."
_______________________
Longer Seasons Seventy-eight percent of survey respondents favored, or would accept, longer seasons as a method to reduce hunter congestion. Longer seasons could be achieved by adding days at the beginning or end of the any-weapon season, expanding short-range weapon/muzzleloader only opportunities, and allowing youth either-sex hunts to coincide with general, any-weapon seasons (currently, some GMUs have shortened either-sex hunts for youth).
________________________
HABITAT
Wallmo (1981), in his seminal book on mule deer noted that “the only generalization needed to account for the mule deer decline throughout the West is that practically every identified trend in land use and plant succession on the deer ranges is detrimental to deer. Hunting pressure and predators might be controlled, and favorable weather conditions could permit temporary recovery, but deer numbers ultimately are limited by habitat quality and quantity.”
_______________________

MOTORIZED USE
Since the late 1980’s, Idaho has witnessed a substantial increase in off-highway-vehicle (OHV) registrations not only for hunting, but for non-wildlife-based recreation. In 2017, there were 157,393 registered OHVs statewide, which is more than 20 times the number of those registered in 1989.
_____________________

PREDATORS
The primary predators of mule deer in Idaho are mountain lions (Puma concolor) and coyotes (Canis latrans). Additionally, bobcats (Lynx rufus), black bears (Ursus americanus), gray wolves (Canis lupus) and several other species utilize mule deer as part of their prey base. Vulnerability of mule deer to these various predators is dependent on age. For example, black bears utilize neonate mule deer (0–6 months) as part of their prey base, but have very little or no success with older fawns or adults.

[HighCountryBC]

^^^^the MOE objective is 20 bucks:100 does - with the change to only 1 MD buck allowed per licence between regions 3 - 8, we should see the buck to doe ratio increase, with many hunters holding out for bigger bucks..

That was purely social and will have a negligible impact. Very, very few hunters took more than one mule deer buck. No hard numbers but it's likely that was even more under-utilized than the antlerless whitetail season.

[longwalk]

That was purely social and will have a negligible impact. Very, very few hunters took more than one mule deer buck. No hard numbers but it's likely that was even more under-utilized than the antlerless whitetail season.
In thirty plus years of hunting, I can only recall once where I took two mule deer bucks. Both hayfield deer if my memory serves me correctly.

[horshur]

Years ago I got asked about the region 5 regs conflicting with region 3...personaly thought 3 should follow 5 cause of region5 hunters migrating to 3..but the numbers...and they have statistics...late season harvest is a small % overall...mostly I am inclined to trust our bioligists..what I was getting at earlier...is if you are gonna be a trophy hunter..then be on ffs..logic would suggest that to acquire the designation "Trophy" it must be rare and difficult...thats the whole point..you accomplished a rare event...that is why it is a trophy..if it was easy? It disqualifies it as a trophy..
Shooting a dink 4 point nullifies your trophy hunting desigation..."what you hold others to you should at the very least hold yourself"

[horshur]

In thirty plus years of hunting, I can only recall once where I took two mule deer bucks. Both hayfield deer if my memory serves me correctly.

I would like to see the harvest stats..you probably are right..but with a little effort and especially with the doe draws it was pretty easy to harvest a couple mulies.

[simonvancouver]

What about the whitetail in region 3, are they having an impact on the MD? or not yet?

[horshur]

What about the whitetail in region 3, are they having an impact on the MD? or not yet?

Whitetail have been here a very long time..they will impact mule deer only so much as the habitat has changed to favour whitetails.

[Arctic Lake]

You fellas talk about the mule deer and the whitetail habitat are you talking about their feed if so do the two species feed on different plant life ?
Arctic Lake

[HarryToolips]

That was purely social and will have a negligible impact. Very, very few hunters took more than one mule deer buck. No hard numbers but it's likely that was even more under-utilized than the antlerless whitetail season.
I know a couple hunters personally who a couple times took two muley bucks in one season...The hunters who want to hold out for a big muley can't shoot a meat muley buck before hand..

[Stone Sheep Steve]

I know a couple hunters personally who a couple times took two muley bucks in one season...The hunters who want to hold out for a big muley can't shoot a meat muley buck before hand..


Yes. I think a lot of hunters took the first buck they saw then held out for something bigger for their second muley.

It will be interesting to see if the ratios improve with the bag limit changes. Personally, I would have liked them to shorten the any buck season to Oct 1-15 at the same time. That would certainly increase the ratios a lot faster.

SSS

[huntingthecountry]

Have both mulies and whitetail on my fields and they both eating the same food , but have never seen a whitetail eat the lichen out of the trees like muledeer do.

[huntingthecountry]

I would often take 2 mulies in the same year , have good hunting spots in both region 3 and 5 and would move when I harvested a deer . The last 2 years I have switched to whitetail to help fill the freezer and have found good success during the rut as the whitetail bucks are very aggressive and come to the horn rattle and buck grunt better than their counterparts

[HighCountryBC]

I know a couple hunters personally who a couple times took two muley bucks in one season...The hunters who want to hold out for a big muley can't shoot a meat muley buck before hand..

It's just wasn't a common trend overall and the provincial change isn't something that is going to move the needle much in regards to ratios. There are much more effective ways to increase ratios in areas that truly need it.

[slowjo]

It's just wasn't a common trend overall and the provincial change isn't something that is going to move the needle much in regards to ratios. There are much more effective ways to increase ratios in areas that truly need it.

Please fill us in on these 'much more effective ways'. Wolf culls? That Idaho report mentioned earlier says wolves aren't even primary predators, cougars are. Forestry management? Road closures? 4-pt restrictions? Shorter seasons?
Aside from changing forestry practices, which in my opinion will never happen, lots of these management tools have been utilized in places like Region 4 but with very little impact. Still not many mule deer around.

[slowjo]

That was purely social and will have a negligible impact. Very, very few hunters took more than one mule deer buck. No hard numbers but it's likely that was even more under-utilized than the antlerless whitetail season.

Under-utilized whitetail doe season? Have you ever been to the East Kootenays during the October doe season?

[slowjo]

Have both mulies and whitetail on my fields and they both eating the same food , but have never seen a whitetail eat the lichen out of the trees like muledeer do.

I saw this first hand in Region 8 two weeks ago. Whitetail doe with two fawns. Doe was going from tree to tree eating lichen.

[Arctic Lake]

Have both mulies and whitetail on my fields and they both eating the same food , but have never seen a whitetail eat the lichen out of the trees like muledeer do.
Thank You
Arctic Lake

[Arctic Lake]

I saw this first hand in Region 8 two weeks ago. Whitetail doe with two fawns. Doe was going from tree to tree eating lichen.
Thank You
Arctic Lake

[Bugle M In]

I would often take 2 mulies in the same year , have good hunting spots in both region 3 and 5 and would move when I harvested a deer . The last 2 years I have switched to whitetail to help fill the freezer and have found good success during the rut as the whitetail bucks are very aggressive and come to the horn rattle and buck grunt better than their counterparts


Whitetail have been here a very long time..they will impact mule deer only so much as the habitat has changed to favour whitetails.

I think these 2 posts are a good example of what I think will now happen due to the 1 MD limit.
In a way, having the 1 MD limit will actually make some focus more effort on WT now, which in the long run benefit the MD potentially.
I do however think that the majority of folks only at best harvested 1 MD per season if that.
And those that took 2 a season probably did so annually, year after year, most likely due to close proximity to getting out hunting often etc.
Give it time folks, it should be a big benefit.
And yes, depends on how much the Preds take advantage of this, both wolves and the not so often but should be talked about more, cougar!

[Bugle M In]

To those who don't trophy hunt MD, this thread shouldn't discourage folks to post their successes.
My thought of the day:

https://i.imgur.com/LMoFxpR.jpg

[HighCountryBC]

Under-utilized whitetail doe season? Have you ever been to the East Kootenays during the October doe season?

Yes, despite the constant cries, it is an under-utilized season. Whitetail continue to exist in good numbers all over the region. They're the most prolific breeders among NA ungulates and adapt to changes in their environment as well as any species on the landscape.

[Arctic Lake]

[Thats a happy camper ! Good for him ! Arctic Lake QUOTE=Bugle M In;2128912]To those who don't trophy hunt MD, this thread shouldn't discourage folks to post their successes.
My thought of the day:

https://i.imgur.com/LMoFxpR.jpg[/QUOTE]

[HarryToolips]

Yes, despite the constant cries, it is an under-utilized season. Whitetail continue to exist in good numbers all over the region. They're the most prolific breeders among NA ungulates and adapt to changes in their environment as well as any species on the landscape.
This is true, it's amazing how well they adapt......

[HarryToolips]

Yes. I think a lot of hunters took the first buck they saw then held out for something bigger for their second muley.

It will be interesting to see if the ratios improve with the bag limit changes. Personally, I would have liked them to shorten the any buck season to Oct 1-15 at the same time. That would certainly increase the ratios a lot faster.

SSS
I agree, or even shorten it to Oct 1 - 21 like it was when I started hunting 10 years ago......

[Looking_4_Jerky]

Absolutely. Mature bucks are such a small part of the population because most never live to see maturity, the recreational demand is too high. In poor access areas I have passed on countless deer and see a good bunch of them next year a little bigger and a little closer to maturity. If I choose to shoot them because they are legal or I am only hunting for meat or I have my kids shoot them then that natural progression halts. Very basic.....

True story. I shoot small bucks, so I'm coming down hard on those harvesting small bucks, but no question that the decline in mature bucks in the southern interior is all to do with recruiting yearling bucks into successive age classes.

[zippermouth]

Yes, despite the constant cries, it is an under-utilized season. Whitetail continue to exist in good numbers all over the region. They're the most prolific breeders among NA ungulates and adapt to changes in their environment as well as any species on the landscape.

good numbers maybe, but I think the doe season is doing what the managers want and it’s lowering the population. Not sure how under utilized it was, sounded like a shooting range every weekend in October, last weekend (nov 1-2) it was pretty much as quiet as can be. Hunting pressure also seemed to tank vs the weekend before with the closure or does and possibly any mule buck. Hunting pressure definitely has an impact, if not on overall population definitely on quality. But BC just seems to care about not impacting hunter opportunity. We need serious money to go towards our mule deer. Not just minimal funding and guess work.

[Bugle M In]

good numbers maybe, but I think the doe season is doing what the managers want and it’s lowering the population. Not sure how under utilized it was, sounded like a shooting range every weekend in October, last weekend (nov 1-2) it was pretty much as quiet as can be. Hunting pressure also seemed to tank vs the weekend before with the closure or does and possibly any mule buck. Hunting pressure definitely has an impact, if not on overall population definitely on quality. But BC just seems to care about not impacting hunter opportunity. We need serious money to go towards our mule deer. Not just minimal funding and guess work.
Yes and no.
If you look at the Idaho study, their survey was not too much unlike our MD questionare.
Hunters don't like a "crowded" situation due to limited time frame or limited by restriction.
So, it's not a case of us just here in BC wanting ample opportunity for ?"many reasons".

But yes, poor funding, poor management in all aspects and poor accountability as well as "counting" has led to many issues that many of us see now.
As for good numbers, yes, the Does get bred etc, and yes, how many are actually surviving come the next season is a big issue.
But, how much is hunter related and how much is pred related.
Again, poor management to know what is really going on, and piss poor habitat come winter time.

[twoSevenO]

They are logging the sh** out of BC, and the government won't recognise our full fledged wolf problem, as a real problem.

As far as i know, they don't really log in Colorado, they give the deer ample winter range free of predators, and they seem to just overall manage it much better in order to produce some amazing results.
Population of BC is ~5 million, colorado is ~5.6. So i doubt it's extra money due to licence sales. I'm assuming they must be, in part, federally funded, because even Wyoming with a measly ~600,000 population has great management and the money for licences from that wouldn't really account for much. That's 5 million less people than colorado and both states produce world class mule deer.

Here's a family trip from Colorado. Kids here tag spikers and 2 points. Kids there knocking down cranker bucks. I'm not saying DON'T let your kid shoot a 2 point. i'm just saying it'd be nice to have the option to pass them up for something bigger like they do :)

Does anyone have a figure as to how their funding works, and how it is spent, compared to BC? ..... I think there was a thread on something like this at one point, but i'm not certain.

https://i.imgur.com/J70mPu7.jpg

[Stone Sheep Steve]

I’ve put in a request comparing BC’s wildlife budget compared to other provinces and states. It’s a real eye opener.

Colorado also has lots of private land and landowner tags. Pay the price.

SSS

[LeverActionJunkie]

I looked it up and posted here at one time when we were debating non resident hunters in bc. I’d have to look it up again for accurate facts but seem to remember the number of hunters in both states far outnumbering the totals in bc with all user groups combined and on a landbase not even a quarter the size. They both allow tons of out of state hunters and they charge a premium and take those dollars to manage wildlife. The numbers make our 150K BC residents look minuscule. They also have vastly better habitat and a slew of other factors involved in the difference.

[twoSevenO]

I’ve put in a request comparing BC’s wildlife budget compared to other provinces and states. It’s a real eye opener.

Colorado also has lots of private land and landowner tags. Pay the price.

SSS

Do you know where the gap comes in?
The number of hunters is likely pretty close .... are their licences and tags more expensive? Are they federally subsided?

[twoSevenO]

I looked it up and posted here at one time when we were debating non resident hunters in bc. I’d have to look it up again for accurate facts but seem to remember the number of hunters in both states far outnumbering the totals in bc with all user groups combined and on a landbase not even a quarter the size. They both allow tons of out of state hunters and they charge a premium and take those dollars to manage wildlife. The numbers make our 150K BC residents look minuscule. They also have vastly better habitat and a slew of other factors involved in the difference.

So despite a somewhat similar population size, they simply have a higher perrcentage of hunters?
Interesting .... do you know if their licences and tags are also more expensive to generate more $$$?

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Do you know where the gap comes in?
The number of hunters is likely pretty close .... are their licences and tags more expensive? Are they federally subsided?

There were 575,000 licensed hunters in 2014(quick google search). They also generate funds from the Robertson-Pittman Act....a tax on all outdoor equipment sold.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Colorado 2014/2015 hunting license sales generated $70 mil.

[Blockcaver]

Random comments on CO: Lots of non-resident hunters in CO, at one time 40% of the deer and elk licenses sold went to NR...no guides required. All deer licenses are LEH now and you get one deer tag per year....whitetail or mule deer not defined. Mule deer numbers are way down from years back as well. Cougars, coyotes and especially bad winters are to blame. Hunting seasons are typically a week or 10 days long for a rifle or muzzleloader with archery being about 4 weeks long (variations depending on region). You could only hunt one of the seasons. (Pick your weapon and your season, that is it) Seasons were designed to manage hunters as well as game.

Wolves are on the ballot now to be re-introduced. Huge mistake if it happens. Black bear numbers are tiny versus B.C. A very large elk herd was considered detrimental to the mule deer. CO had 8 or 10x as many elk as BC.

I am not totally up to speed down there anymore but we had very good deer hunting over the 35 years I lived there. Way better than B.C.

[twoSevenO]

There were 575,000 licensed hunters in 2014(quick google search). They also generate funds from the Robertson-Pittman Act....a tax on all outdoor equipment sold.

jesus .... that's 5 times the number of BC hunters, according to this thread:

http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/showthread.php?140240-Number-of-Hunters-in-BC

[Blockcaver]

Colorado data from 2018 show 88k hunters took 38k deer, all methods of take included. And there are a few whitetail specific seasons nowadays. Total deer population was estimated at 433k.

[twoSevenO]

Random comments on CO: Lots of non-resident hunters in CO, at one time 40% of the deer and elk licenses sold went to NR...no guides required. All deer licenses are LEH now and you get one deer tag per year....whitetail or mule deer not defined. Mule deer numbers are way down from years back as well. Cougars, coyotes and especially bad winters are to blame. Hunting seasons are typically a week or 10 days long for a rifle or muzzleloader with archery being about 4 weeks long (variations depending on region). You could only hunt one of the seasons. (Pick your weapon and your season, that is it) Seasons were designed to manage hunters as well as game.

Wolves are on the ballot now to be re-introduced. Huge mistake if it happens. Black bear numbers are tiny versus B.C. A very large elk herd was considered detrimental to the mule deer. CO had 8 or 10x as many elk as BC.

I am not totally up to speed down there anymore but we had very good deer hunting over the 35 years I lived there. Way better than B.C.

It still is. I follow quite a few hunters on Instagram from colorado and there have been lots of really nice bucks taken. So i can only imagine the ones that don't get posted. Most people claim public land and not private, but either way, lots of big bucks have been taken this year and i assume its like that every year.

The states are smaller, so if you have decent connections you can travel and hunt 4-5 states, colorado, utah, wyoming, arizona, new mexico .... all closer than for someone from the LM to go to SK to hunt whitetails, and all seem to have phenomenal mule deer hunting from what i've seen on Instagram.

[Brian011]

I think the seasons in region 3,5, and 8 need to be aligned better. Once region 8 and 5 close, everyone comes to region 3. I think region 3 gets hit the hardest and always will as long as the seasons allow for it.

[Bugle M In]

I think the seasons in region 3,5, and 8 need to be aligned better. Once region 8 and 5 close, everyone comes to region 3. I think region 3 gets hit the hardest and always will as long as the seasons allow for it.

100% agree.
And if the Ministry started taking proper steps in wildlife management, this could happen asap.
I really really noticed the difference the first year R5 was closed for 10 days, and it has only gotten worse! in R3

[LeverActionJunkie]

We will never get proper and effective management until we generate and allocate the kind of funds that they do in the states. We simply do not generate enough $$ to sway political viewpoints and compared to the other interest groups competing for resources ie. forestry, ranching, General development, leaf lickin hippie groups we are a drop in the bucket. We are also often our own worst enemies with the endless bickering and general bad behavior in eyes of the greater public. Instead of speaking for the resources, land rivers, animals etc the public sees us worrying about preserving our opportunities ( sometimes not always, at risk of animal numbers) blaming FN groups, and guide outfitters for our lost opportunity to kill. We should be the ones stepping out to voice concern and assist with solutions. We need more Teddy Roosevelt and less poor us & it’s all these other groups fault.

[Wild one]

It will take huge change before BC even comes close to the deer hunting quality of many states or the rest of Western Canada. It would involve a different mindset and management goals. Picking only select parts of a management plan to limit change does not work

Its been discussed on HBC many times over the years and many excuses on how BCs management is working yet Mule deer populations and quality declines. Money for habitat, predator control, and studies is great but if you don’t change the management goals it’s not going to achieve the results many hope for

I have beat this dead horse many times

[twoSevenO]

I wonder if BC would have this problem if we didnt have a strong fishery to manage like we do.

I dont suppose Alberta or Colorado have a very strong fisheries department to lobby the government for money like we do.

[LeverActionJunkie]

It will take huge change before BC even comes close to the deer hunting quality of many states or the rest of Western Canada. It would involve a different mindset and management goals. Picking only select parts of a management plan to limit change does not work

Its been discussed on HBC many times over the years and many excuses on how BCs management is working yet Mule deer populations and quality declines. Money for habitat, predator control, and studies is great but if you don’t change the management goals it’s not going to achieve the results many hope for

I have beat this dead horse many times


I agree with you. It’s the change in mindset we as hunters can help affect. Hopefully in doing so it would help to influence a change in management strategies. We can only control what is within our power. Unfortunately there’s an overwhelming desire to simply keep status quo and increase hunter opportunities as the only goals on the horizon. Again I feel we are often our own worst enemies. Coupled with declining participation in the sport and its hard to see a desirable end game.

[skibum]

The status quo does not exist. We want to keep everything the same as we saw it in 1980 - a frigin elk scared the piss out of me just outside town last weekend, in my life time they were not here, but were probably before.

Game numbers fluctuate - well known that the dudes experienced the great mule deer hunting 30 - 20 years ago as a result of fire and forest practices of the past that don't happen now. There are spots in the states where there is great mule deer hunting, but it looks like the FN's were sheep specialists in the past. Hardly any sheep there now.

Guess what I am getting at, is just because you saw great numbers of deer on a hillside one year, doesn't mean they should be there next year or in 5 years. We want everything to be constant, nature isn't.

I personally witnessed mule deer behavior change as the wolves moved into my best spot - before they would walk around freely, then one year, I would only glass them poking their heads out of the tree line and backing up. (year I shot my first wolf that then showed up later in the morning). I would parallel that with the Yellowstone elk National Geographic story and the willows around the streams.

We want to pattern everything, only works for a little while.

[Bugle M In]

^^^^^definitely ebbs and flows.
Great areas become not so great and then years later become great again.
Only thing is, 30 40 years, well, there ha been a lot of change in that time, especially in the way of development in low areas (winter grounds).
So there are the natural cycles, and there is the man made cycle that only seems to go one way.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Much of Western NA has seen mule deer populations s decline in recent years. The problem isn’t exclusive to just BC

There’s a reason that there is a Mule Deer Foundation... and there’s a good reason why there isn’t a Whitetail Deer Foundation.

SSS

[Wild one]

Much of Western NA has seen mule deer populations s decline in recent years. The problem isn’t exclusive to just BC

There’s a reason that there is a Mule Deer Foundation... and there’s a good reason why there isn’t a Whitetail Deer Foundation.

SSS

Guess you never heard of whitetails unlimited

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Guess you never heard of whitetails unlimited

you are correct. Never heard of it?

[skibum]

We like to bitch and bitch anecdotally, but never see the data from biologist about what is really happening. I was under the assumption from the regional biologist (R3) that there wasn't an emergency, but that was five years ago.

Go to see if I can track down historical mule deer counts for R3. Does anybody have these numbers here?

[Stone Sheep Steve]

We like to bitch and bitch anecdotally, but never see the data from biologist about what is really happening. I was under the assumption from the regional biologist (R3) that there wasn't an emergency, but that was five years ago.

Go to see if I can track down historical mule deer counts for R3. Does anybody have these numbers here?

Ive never seen the flight data from Region 3 but I’m sure it was similar to the Region 8 counts. Low buck to doe ratios in several MUs....but good fawn to doe ratios in early December across the board.

The bios from Idaho who are collaborating on the Southern Interior Mule Deer project reviewed the numbers from before the study began and told them that low buck to doe ratios were not the cause of the decreasing mule deer populations that we have seen in much of the interior. The pregnancy rates in the first part of the study just confirmed that.

SSS

[Wild one]

you are correct. Never heard of it?

Even whitetail have a group focused on whitetail conservation. There was also major efforts to rebuild whitetail populations in parts of the US in the past. They are not invisible but have had extremely successful improvements to there populations across most of North America. A lot of crazy assumptions about whitetail in BC

Mule deer are definitely more fragile and there is a reason most provinces/states manage them in a way stricter fashion then BC. BC would be wise to follow suit in my opinion

[Wild one]

Ive never seen the flight data from Region 3 but I’m sure it was similar to the Region 8 counts. Low buck to doe ratios in several MUs....but good fawn to doe ratios in early December across the board.

The bios from Idaho who are collaborating on the Southern Interior Mule Deer project reviewed the numbers from before the study began and told them that low buck to doe ratios were not the cause of the decreasing mule deer populations that we have seen in much of the interior. The pregnancy rates in the first part of the study just confirmed that.

SSS

Region 3 a lot of MUs fell shy or hovered in the lower 20% mark before the switch to the 1 MD limit

Not that I believe ratios it a huge factor in BCs Mule deer decline I would place bets if you send BCs data on ratios to every MD province and state you will get a mix of options on the impact it has on the herd

[twoSevenO]

I have contacted a reg 3 biologist regarding some data for a few areas I hunt and he was very vague about everything.

Am I allowed to demand to see the data myself, especially on collared deer, or do I have to rely on his synopsis of it?

They have collared some animals and I'd like to see their migration and movement patterns.

[Wild one]

I have contacted a reg 3 biologist regarding some data for a few areas I hunt and he was very vague about everything.

Am I allowed to demand to see the data myself, especially on collared deer, or do I have to rely on his synopsis of it?

They have collared some animals and I'd like to see their migration and movement patterns.

Don’t think they are obligated to provide that data if memory serves me correct.

[Falseadoom]

Here is the newest draft plan for 2020 - 2025 MD management Plan from our near USA neighbors of Idaho.
15 bucks or greater to 100 does.

Long read, but addresses almost exactly the same concerns as here, imo.

https://idfg.idaho.gov/sites/default/files/draft-management-plan-mule-deer-may-30-2019.pdf (wlmailhtml:{F94F37EA-C757-47B6-B276-E88B01693CE0}mid://00000004/!x-usc:https://idfg.idaho.gov/sites/default/files/draft-management-plan-mule-deer-may-30-2019.pdf)

There is a lot of private property in Idaho where hunters can't go without permission. I have hunted in Northern Idaho several times with success but was on private property. Picking weapon and season has helped increase deer population. A lot of hunters there will not hunt doe's.

[LeverActionJunkie]

I have contacted a reg 3 biologist regarding some data for a few areas I hunt and he was very vague about everything.

Am I allowed to demand to see the data myself, especially on collared deer, or do I have to rely on his synopsis of it?

They have collared some animals and I'd like to see their migration and movement patterns.


Without actually being a part of that world as they say. What I, or anyone else form the outside says needs to be taken with a grain of salt. However I would be willing to bet that the level of actual hard numbers and data that you’re looking for is quite minimal. Specifically if you were to compare it to the data out of any number of western states. I suspect our funding levels prevent actual hard data from being collected to the same levels. And if it is in fact on par with other organizations, they’re not openly sharing it in the same fashion. It doesn’t take a google ninja to be able to drill down into all kinds of info and studies done in any number of western states. Along with harvest data, Hunter participation, weapons used, days hunted, you name it. Trying to access similar info out of BC is much different. Hell you can get a better picture of the condition of Idaho pheasant population if you’d like. If I’m not way out of touch on what info is available and what info exists. Then it points, for me at least, towards one piece of the problem pie. That is, how do you accurately manage and deal with a population and seasons without all the information and tools possible?

Again who knows maybe all of that is out there and known to the same extent as other jurisdictions, but it’s just not as readily available.

[Wild one]

There is a lot of MUs that have not had a count in years and numbers are not reliable. This is a funding issue for sure

[HighCountryBC]

I have contacted a reg 3 biologist regarding some data for a few areas I hunt and he was very vague about everything.

Am I allowed to demand to see the data myself, especially on collared deer, or do I have to rely on his synopsis of it?

They have collared some animals and I'd like to see their migration and movement patterns.

No, they aren’t going to give you access to that information. You will be able to see some of it when the study is finished.

[Deaddog]

No, they aren’t going to give you access to that information. You will be able to see some of it when the study is finished.

yes. You have a legal right to the info , unfortunately you will have to do an foi to get it. There is a reason tens Of millions are spent on studies with no results or actionable outcomes

[HarryToolips]

If the BC Liberals got in, they were supposedly going to put all our hunting license revenue back into wildlife and habitat....that is ultimately what we need, as that would lead to proper counts.....reg 3 is a stronghold for mule deer, and that is why I hope they continue the liberal seasons on WT there...

[slowjo]

Without actually being a part of that world as they say. What I, or anyone else form the outside says needs to be taken with a grain of salt. However I would be willing to bet that the level of actual hard numbers and data that you’re looking for is quite minimal. Specifically if you were to compare it to the data out of any number of western states. I suspect our funding levels prevent actual hard data from being collected to the same levels. And if it is in fact on par with other organizations, they’re not openly sharing it in the same fashion. It doesn’t take a google ninja to be able to drill down into all kinds of info and studies done in any number of western states. Along with harvest data, Hunter participation, weapons used, days hunted, you name it. Trying to access similar info out of BC is much different. Hell you can get a better picture of the condition of Idaho pheasant population if you’d like. If I’m not way out of touch on what info is available and what info exists. Then it points, for me at least, towards one piece of the problem pie. That is, how do you accurately manage and deal with a population and seasons without all the information and tools possible?

Again who knows maybe all of that is out there and known to the same extent as other jurisdictions, but it’s just not as readily available.

There is simply not enough money or people to do the jobs. We can’t possibly have such a massive area managed with so few people and such little cash. Most of our management units are the size of actual USA states. If we had the resources to run each MU individually instead of “governing” the entire province like one big MU then we could really scrutinize the science.
if and only if, we had the resources.
and sadly, that will only happen with a revolutionary change in government, politics, public opinion, and most importantly education.

[Bugle M In]

If the BC Liberals got in, they were supposedly going to put all our hunting license revenue back into wildlife and habitat....that is ultimately what we need, as that would lead to proper counts.....reg 3 is a stronghold for mule deer, and that is why I hope they continue the liberal seasons on WT there...

the NDP have decided they are going to use the money for fake online surveys to ban more species...
Just like their GBear survey they had.....supposedly!
There are some WT in Hat Creek area that need to be taken out if anyone is interested. (North end more)

[ratherbefishin]

Being on the Island ,I ‘ve Never shot a white tail...be interested in knowing when and where within reasonable during distance

[Wild one]

Being on the Island ,I ‘ve Never shot a white tail...be interested in knowing when and where within reasonable during distance

well I am sitting in a stand right so I hope right now is good timing lol

Where is a matter of finding pockets. If you can think of areas you have seen WT in the past start there. Get out of the truck and explore for pinch points and sign. This time of year find rubs/scrapes

[twoSevenO]

yes. You have a legal right to the info , unfortunately you will have to do an foi to get it. There is a reason tens Of millions are spent on studies with no results or actionable outcomes

Have you followed this process before? What was it like? Curious what you did. You can PM me if you wish.

Thanks!

[LeverActionJunkie]

There is simply not enough money or people to do the jobs. We can’t possibly have such a massive area managed with so few people and such little cash. Most of our management units are the size of actual USA states. If we had the resources to run each MU individually instead of “governing” the entire province like one big MU then we could really scrutinize the science.
if and only if, we had the resources.
and sadly, that will only happen with a revolutionary change in government, politics, public opinion, and most importantly education.


Completely agree with you. Hopefully there will be some of those changes to govt and the system. But it feels more likely that we experience a self consuming loop where we keep rationing ever smaller pieces of an ever shrinking pie without enacting any growth.