Headshots? Take them or no?

[TheTwelve]

Hey hey, so I’ve been told to take head shots and to not take head shots.... now I k ow it’s not smart or even logical to take then at a stupid amount of distance, I’m going to stay within the 100 yard range. Two years ago my wife and I were stalking a Sitka deer and we came up to around 15 yards from it. the brush we were in was pretty thick and my wife only had a head shot, and I had a top shoulder shot. Now at this point we had no idea about head shots and if they were legal or not so I took out the shoulders and lost quite a bit of meat. (Novice mistake. Next time I’ll be sure to wait longer or just tell her to take the head shot). After the field dressing we took it to the local butch and she asked “if we were that close why not take the head shot to not waste meat.” And that’s when a few other buyers there said to always take a head shot if you can...

What’s everyone’s opinion on them, if you’re within some heavy timber and only have a head shot within 100 yards would you take it?

[Fella]

Not for me. Too much can go wrong. Deer moves their head while you’re squeezing the trigger and you take their jaw off etc. I’d rather let something go than risk giving it a horrific slow death.

[wideopenthrottle]

if close enough, with a rest and if no body shot was available ...just behind the shoulder is where I usually aim....if you take the shot shoulder off and wash off all the blood damage you can often save the majority of shoulders that often get tossed

[835]

"head shots" threads are always fun!

judging by your post you are pretty new. Don't mean anything by that.. but it also means you are not super experienced. for you I would say a resounding no.
I have taken them in the past but do my very best to avoid them. in your scenario I would have shot it in the head if I had a proper rest, or I would have passed it.

In my mind there is almost no need for head shots.

[CranePete]

Nope. Just nope. I’m not so desperate for the meat that I would take a chance at crippling an animal. Others will say differently, and that’s their choice. For me, hunting doesn’t have to be about cutting a tag.

[rocksteady]

Depends.. if its close, i have a good rest and know exactly where my bullet will go i will take it.. have done dozens in the past, zero losses..

Very effective under the right conditions

[Steelpulse]

No. As hunters we are supposed to take ethical shots. It being such a small target vs the boiler room. It is a non ethical shot. IMO
Cue all arm chair snipers who never miss and say the head shot is ethical because they are experts so it’s ok

[Norwestalta]

200" whitetail not a chance. 350" elk not a chance either but I know my limits and capabilities so I'm not against head shots

[TheTwelve]

Yes I am fairly new to hunting, if had my license for years and years but never really went out. Now that I’m training a lot more and eating like 1500-2000 kcal meals every few hours it will benefit me more and it’s also a lot healthier for the wife and I, we also like the adventure it takes us on. I still have an enormous amount of learning to do.

[Quiet Hunter]

No. As hunters we are supposed to take ethical shots. It being such a small target vs the boiler room. It is a non ethical shot. IMO
Cue all arm chair snipers who never miss and say the head shot is ethical because they are experts so it’s ok


I feel the exact same as you. My teacher said a double lung heart shot is the best shot you can take. 3 targets in 1 for all the sniper boys.

[835]

Yes I am fairly new to hunting, if had my license for years and years but never really went out. Now that I’m training a lot more and eating like 1500-2000 kcal meals every few hours it will benefit me more and it’s also a lot healthier for the wife and I, we also like the adventure it takes us on. I still have an enormous amount of learning to do.

hunting is awesome! and you are asking questions that you should be asking. Don't ever feel dum..... I was just saying ,,, "Your new, you should most definatly not take headshots"

[Rieber]

Look for the best shot. Sometimes the best shot is still s shite shot so you have to know when not to pull the trigger despite your game being right there. Ive taken head shots and neck shots but only when certain and with a rest. Everyone's ability will vary and you need to respect your and your equipment's abilities.

[Rieber]

I feel the exact same as you. My teacher said a double lung heart shot is the best shot you can take. 3 targets in 1 for all the sniper boys.

Yes, it certainly gives you the biggest target, the widest margin for error and the highest probability of a kill shot.

[huntingfamily]

Absolutely no head shots from us! Ever!

[Livewire322]

It’s interesting to see how many people are opposed to head shots.

I have taken them in the past and will continue to do so.

I’ve seen quite a few animals killed in my hunting career, most were shot in the heart/lungs. I’ve watched animals run after being mortally shot through the vitals. I’ve never seen an animal run after being shot in the brain.

[Ron.C]

Sure, there are hunters capable of some pretty amazing marksmanship but Id be more impressed by seeing their results on paper then listen to someone boast about headshots in my opinion.

In hunting though, it really comes down to legality and personal ethics. Since head shots are perfectly legal it comes down to your own ethics and the amount of risk you fell is acceptable.

Yes, people screw up heart/lung shots and loose animals, and not all solid heart lung shots are bang-flops, but they die fast. The margin for error is too high on headshots.

[Big Lew]

Unless you're living off the land and absolutely need that meat, why risk wounding by
shooting at such a small lethal target? There are exceptions as some have pointed out,
that being the animal is quite close, you know your gun, and you have a rest.
The only head shots I've taken, and I've shot a lot of game, has been on the farm when
I could put the barrel end behind an ear...otherwise it's just not worth it to me.

[moosinaround]

Here we go, unethical, blah blah blah. Every hunting situation is different. I've used head shots, why not, if you can do them. Gotta know your own capabilities, your weapons capabilities, and the situation. Always go for the highest potential of creating the most lethal wound channel. Sometimes its the brain, or spine, but most times its the biggest target, the chest. Do your part, practice, use a properly sighted in weapon, and use a bunch of common sense. If it is a marginal chance at creating a lethal kill, then don't shoot. Simple! Moosin

[Wild one]

If it’s close range chip shot I feel 100% on yes I will take a head shot if I feel it is my best possible option. But I am also a hunter who won’t pull the trigger if I am not confident in it. It’s not just a matter of hard shot or chest shot it’s being honest with your ability in the moment. Yes I will take a head shot under the right conditions but I will also pass on a 50yard chest shot if I am too gased to steady my crosshairs

The ethics of shot selection should be based on the hunters true ability and conditions in the moment. Know your true limits and if you have doubts don’t pull the trigger. This goes for shot selection, shot angles, and distance it’s not a simple chest shots only within X distance

[rocksteady]

Here we go, unethical, blah blah blah. Every hunting situation is different. I've used head shots, why not, if you can do them. Gotta know your own capabilities, your weapons capabilities, and the situation. Always go for the highest potential of creating the most lethal wound channel. Sometimes its the brain, or spine, but most times its the biggest target, the chest. Do your part, practice, use a properly sighted in weapon, and use a bunch of common sense. If it is a marginal chance at creating a lethal kill, then don't shoot. Simple! Moosin

Amen brother!!!

[Taylor329]

I feel like if you're hunting small game like squirrels, grouse, rabbits, and whatnot, head shots are more the norm to prevent meat loss, no? On big game it's no brainer (no pun intented) for not taking head shots.

[Downtown]

For me, Hunting is a calling whereas practising on the Shooting Range is a Sport.

The hunting Ethics instilled into me since I was a little Boy are, that Fair consideration for the Animal always comes first. This includes shots which have a high probability that they are non killing and in the worst case scenario (by shooting off the lower Jaw) result in the agonizing starving of the Animal. For this reason I consider Head Shots absolutely unethical and strongly advise against them.

Of course if the Animal is already wounded, any shot including a Head shot is OK to put the Animal out of its misery as quickly as possible.

Finally I found in my rather long hunting career 60+years that often the same People advocating Head shots are frequently the same Operators which decide very quickly they misst the Animal completely and spend all of 5 minutes on a "Search" when in reality the Animal was hit and because of the Laziness and incompetence of the Hunter, died a short ways away only to become a free Meal to Scavengers.

Cheers

[trebreklaw]

No head shots for me. Many years ago i head shot a moose at about 50 yards. Got to it within a minute to cut throat and bleed . No blood surge as usual and meat ended up with lots of blood in the meat.
i think sometimes a head shot can hit the brain and somehow the heart stops immediately.
Anyway that was the last time for me.

[Wild one]

For me, Hunting is a calling whereas practising on the Shooting Range is a Sport.

The hunting Ethics instilled into me since I was a little Boy are, that Fair consideration for the Animal always comes first. This includes shots which have a high probability that they are non killing and in the worst case scenario (by shooting off the lower Jaw) result in the agonizing starving of the Animal. For this reason I consider Head Shots absolutely unethical and strongly advise against them.

Of course if the Animal is already wounded, any shot including a Head shot is OK to put the Animal out of its misery as quickly as possible.

Finally I found in my rather long hunting career 60+years that often the same People advocating Head shots are frequently the same Operators which decide very quickly they misst the Animal completely and spend all of 5 minutes on a "Search" when in reality the Animal was hit and because of the Laziness and incompetence of the Hunter, died a short ways away only to become a free Meal to Scavengers.

Cheers

Making so pretty big assumptions there

[Rieber]

Where is that picture of the Elk with the hole through the nasal cavity?

[rocksteady]

Where is that picture of the Elk with the hole through the nasal cavity?

You are assuming that elk was the intended target.. maybe the cow was behind the bull who took it straight through the boiler room first.

[MRP]

Here we go, unethical, blah blah blah. Every hunting situation is different. I've used head shots, why not, if you can do them. Gotta know your own capabilities, your weapons capabilities, and the situation. Always go for the highest potential of creating the most lethal wound channel. Sometimes its the brain, or spine, but most times its the biggest target, the chest. Do your part, practice, use a properly sighted in weapon, and use a bunch of common sense. If it is a marginal chance at creating a lethal kill, then don't shoot. Simple! Moosin

Egg-zakly :wink: I've used both and past on both. Every shot, each day, each site line is different. Crunch the numbers in your head and do what's right at the time.

[Rieber]

You are assuming that elk was the intended target.. maybe the cow was behind the bull who took it straight through the boiler room first.

Easy there, I'm not assuming nothing. For all I know that elk was inspecting poops and papers when it walked into a sharp branch and impaled itself.

[Squamch]

I shoot grouse in the head.
I shoot ungulates in the boiler room.

[rocksteady]

Easy there, I'm not assuming nothing. For all I know that elk was inspecting poops and papers when it walked into a sharp branch and impaled itself.

Well played... well played!@@

[butthead]

i take whats offered

[Gateholio]

Head shots, lung shots, Texas Heart Shots, frontal shots, they all share one thing in common.

They work if you can do it.

That means you KNOW where your bullet is going to hit precisely, at that distance, and you are CAPABLE of the shot.

Lots of hunters sight in 2" high at 100 or so. That usually gives you the ability to hit a deer in it's lungs from 0 to about 250/300 yards while aiming dead on for a lung shot. Bullet will be a bit high or low depending on range but you don't really need to compensate on a broadside shot.

Now change that up to 15 yards like the OP said, or 100 yards or more, and you are aiming for a head shot. That's a much smaller target. I guarantee 90% of hunters have no idea precisely where there bullet impacts at 15 yards. Good chance you will miss by a hair or worse, blow off part of the animals face without an immediate kill.

I'm not against head shots, I've taken them myself, but don't do it unless you know where your bullet is going to hit. There is not much margin for error. Longest head shot I've taken was 356 yards on a moose. But it wasn't my first shot, I had been too cavalier about my first shot and I hit him too far back. I regret not concentrating enough on the initial shot, but 28 seconds later I aimed just behind his ear in the upper neck and that's where the bullet hit. It was the only shot I really had as he moved behind some trees and that's what was available. Fortunately, we had ranged him and I had dialed accordingly.

Head shots work, but not my first choice.

[btridge]

If it’s close range chip shot I feel 100% on yes I will take a head shot if I feel it is my best possible option. But I am also a hunter who won’t pull the trigger if I am not confident in it. It’s not just a matter of hard shot or chest shot it’s being honest with your ability in the moment. Yes I will take a head shot under the right conditions but I will also pass on a 50yard chest shot if I am too gased to steady my crosshairs

The ethics of shot selection should be based on the hunters true ability and conditions in the moment. Know your true limits and if you have doubts don’t pull the trigger. This goes for shot selection, shot angles, and distance it’s not a simple chest shots only within X distance

Well said, I Very much agree.

[GEF]

I saw a doe the other day with a wound high on the rib cage on the entrance side and a black pouch like marble bag on the off side .Lets pass judgment on that ?Oh ya I found a dead 3 point buck with a half inch kicker ,how about that to? What about those bow hunters ?Lets all take aim at each other .
Who needs antis.

[northof49]

If close yes. I frequently use them for frontal shots in the thick stuff under 25yds on elk and moose when calling. I am confident in my shot placement and never been an issue. Sits them right down with my 338 and don’t have to go looking. Just need to know your ability/limits. I don’t do them on deer tho.

[Weatherby Fan]

I can say I’ve never lost an animal from a head shot but I have from a broadside shot, really depends on the situation and as Gate says know what your bullets doing at that range.

[HarryToolips]

Not practicing with your weapon on a regular basis is unethical as well..I will always take a double lung or heart/chest shot over anything, but if there are branches in the way, and the animal is not aware of my presence I practice enough with my weapon that I know I can pull it off...but only if the conditions and distance is right..

[fuzzybiscuit]

If I was an anti-hunter looking for some good material the first thing I would do would be join a hunting forum, post a thread about the ethics of shooting big game in the head, then sit back and watch a bunch of hunters rip each other apart.

This is a pretty disgusting thread IMHO.

[bc7mm]

Lungs are certainly a bigger target, most times this is the shot I chose. I’m shooting at a basketball verses a softball. A lot less margin for error. In the last 50 years I’ve taken animals with pretty much every lethal shot possible, but have passed on quite a few because it was irresponsible to take any shot.

Distance, wind, animal movement, animal angle, do I have a solid rest, shooting unsupported, shooter ability. There is no cut and dried answer here.

Neck shots, head shots, lung shots, everyone of them kills very quickly when done right. Just depends on what you’ve got standing in front of you and your ability to pull it off.

[TheTwelve]

If I was an anti-hunter looking for some good material the first thing I would do would be join a hunting forum, post a thread about the ethics of shooting big game in the head, then sit back and watch a bunch of hunters rip each other apart.

This is a pretty disgusting thread IMHO.

well I’m not an anti hunter, I’m pro hunting and always will be. I happen to find this thread very informative and I posted it so I could be educated, and I hope it also educates others. some of us done have friend of family members that hunt. Everything I do and have done is self taught. My very first deer was a bad experience, but I learnt more from that harvest than I have anywhere else. I was to excited and caught up in the moment and didn’t think about a multitude of scenarios that could play out and for that I will always remember to take a breath and relax and go through my shooting ritual.

As as for head shots, I’m not just going to take them because I can. I wanted to know what everyone else’s opinions were, wether it be how they feel, ethics, personal experiences, Etc.. how are we to become better if we can’t better my selves through other people’s experiences, and stories.

i go to the range a lot I’m 100% confident that I can take a shot in the lungs up to 300 yards. Now if I stalk a deer into 15-20 yards again and I’ll I have is a head shot, I’m going to take it if it “feels right to me” I have passed up on head shots before within 80yards it was up a steep embankment and looking dead at me his head was bigger than the cross hairs in the scope all I could see was the out line of eyes and in between them but I didn’t take it because I was standing on a awkward angle When I adjusted I spooked it. Oh well better luck next time.

so far from what I have gathered I feel like I have the same ethics and mentality as other where they take head shots only in perfect conditions. Heck I may never need to take a head shot in my hunting career, but I will not rule out the option if it is granted to me

thank you everyone for your advice and opinions!

[Bugle M In]

I have done it.
Sometimes it worked out great, sometimes not so much.
Have one MD, where I took off the antler completely.
Somewhere than is an old thread about it.
Anyways, he dropped with a an awkward pointing away angled shot.
Thought it was over and put everything down to get knife etc.
And off it ran.
Only thing left to shoot at was the head, but on the full fly and heading for timber ith no snow and was worried I may never find him once out of sight.

Missed by about 2" too high, but bang on front to back.
I knew exactly what I had done when the trigger went.
The puff of antler dust just confirmed it.

If it is all I have, then yes I would but try to avoid it as much as possible.
Note: I find shots up close tend to hit a bit higher then you think.
That's why I don't like the head shot.
And my dad lost an elk doing a neck shot due to talk to an older timer the day before who said it was the best way to drop game and not ruin meat.
I am sure it is true.
But to this day, he still regrets not going at the shoulder.
And he has no idea why the neck shot went thru his head.
Hit the elk, but never found it.
I did get a similar bull the next year, in the same area, who did have a bullet in the neck, encapsulated in tissue.

Go with the safe shot as much as possible, imo.

[Downtown]

well I’m not an anti hunter, I’m pro hunting and always will be. I happen to find this thread very informative and I posted it so I could be educated, and I hope it also educates others. some of us done have friend of family members that hunt. Everything I do and have done is self taught. My very first deer was a bad experience, but I learnt more from that harvest than I have anywhere else. I was to excited and caught up in the moment and didn’t think about a multitude of scenarios that could play out and for that I will always remember to take a breath and relax and go through my shooting ritual.

As as for head shots, I’m not just going to take them because I can. I wanted to know what everyone else’s opinions were, wether it be how they feel, ethics, personal experiences, Etc.. how are we to become better if we can’t better my selves through other people’s experiences, and stories.

i go to the range a lot I’m 100% confident that I can take a shot in the lungs up to 300 yards. Now if I stalk a deer into 15-20 yards again and I’ll I have is a head shot, I’m going to take it if it “feels right to me” I have passed up on head shots before within 80yards it was up a steep embankment and looking dead at me his head was bigger than the cross hairs in the scope all I could see was the out line of eyes and in between them but I didn’t take it because I was standing on a awkward angle When I adjusted I spooked it. Oh well better luck next time.

so far from what I have gathered I feel like I have the same ethics and mentality as other where they take head shots only in perfect conditions. Heck I may never need to take a head shot in my hunting career, but I will not rule out the option if it is granted to me

thank you everyone for your advice and opinions!

Seems to me your on the right Track to become a good Hunter. I also like to say, when you hunt long enough there will be times when afterwards you wish you did not take that shot. The best we can do is learn from mistakes regardless if we did them ourselves or heard from someone which did.

Cheers

[Downtown]

If I was an anti-hunter looking for some good material the first thing I would do would be join a hunting forum, post a thread about the ethics of shooting big game in the head, then sit back and watch a bunch of hunters rip each other apart.

This is a pretty disgusting thread IMHO.

On the other Hand, I believe we here on this Forum do have the High Ground. We do discuss our failures and weaknesses which will lead us at least the majority of us to become better and more Ethical Hunters.

Compare this to the average Anti-hunter anti everything so called Environmentalist which is in most cases very Dumb and Ignorant when it comes to Game management questions and regulated hunting. Best example is the Leader of the Greens which claims to be a Scientist but at the same time is against science based management of Grizzly Bears and advocating against the highly effective managed Hunting Tool.

Cheers

[fuzzybiscuit]

well I’m not an anti hunter, I’m pro hunting and always will be.

I’m sure you are and my comment wasn’t directed at you.

What is ethical to one person may not be ethical to another. One’s own personal ethics can be based on a lot of different things, for example, whether a person is a good shot or not. What is legal though is not open to interpretation. When hunters start bashing each other on a legal form of hunting then no one wins but the antis.

[srupp]

Hmmmmm never.ever.
cheers
steven

[Foxton Gundogs]

Hmmmmm never.ever.
cheers
steven

This, nothing more nothing less, anyone who has ever seen an emaciated animal with its jaw blown off from a failed head shot woul think twice about head shots.

[Bugle M In]

This, nothing more nothing less, anyone who has ever seen an emaciated animal with its jaw blown off from a failed head shot woul think twice about head shots.

Yup.
I don't think many consider what can happen to animal if that shot goes wrong.
It never crossed my mind until it happened, but thankfully dropped it with the 2nd shot.
It's hard to be honest about it, or even admit it, but it's true.
Do everything to put the shot behind the shoulder.
Lungs, heart, liver, and you cant go wrong.

[mpotzold]

I never shot a deer/moose in the head before but if there was no other clear shot available would do it.

I mostly use a GG 45/70 loaded with 420/540gr solids.


Thick skulls deflect bullets, some more than others.
The deer brain area is small so one should be proficient with his/her gun & the animal has to be stationary.

The pros of a successful head shot is that the animal dies instantly & there is zero meat wasted.

Over the years my hunting partners have shot moose & deer in the head area & the animals were dead before hitting ground.
Remember LT shooting a moose & instantly killing it . It was facing him in heavy timber about 40 yards away & was the only clear shot he had. He used a 308.

[finngun]

12...=Now at this point we had no idea about head shots and if they were legal.///..well even texas heart shot is legal...ethical..diff.story..cold be messy too..gutless method is recommented..i never try texas shot that yet..or head shot..:biggrin:

[Quince2]

Had a wt take a rnd to the head and get up. Vitals shot is primary shot selection.

[caddisguy]

I wouldn't go for the head under most circumstances. Stuff can change really fast. I headshot a bear by accident once while going for the double lung. He swung his head around while I squeezed the trigger. It's a good example of how much movement can happen so quickly.

I did go for a neck shot on one occasion, but only because the bear was sleeping and the chest was behind a tree. I lay there prone for 45 mins with it in the cross hairs before my brain told my finger to squeeze. It all worked out.

If you are somehow certain an animal won't move its head and you're 100% confident with the shot, can't argue with that though.

[.308SLAYER]

Could never understand why people boast about being able to touch 3 rounds on paper at 100 yards but cant take a headshots/high neck shots within a 100 yards..I've seen many headshots do the trick. The bonus when you skin cut and process you dont have bloodshot or a 300 win mag whole in the side of ur little whitetail..not saying I always do but I will if I can..def wasnt waiting for a headshot on the 6 point bull that went down this year lol

[wiggy]

I posted on here a couple years ago about this. Proper rest and situation is a no brainer ��
got blasted by a few members. One dude who I won’t label even called me a bad name. Dick
Circumstances make the shots I’ve never wounded a big game animal in my life I’ve also passed up lots of shots that weren’t in my comfort zone. Lots with a bow
40 th year heading for the dream ram. Still haven’t caught up to him in season
Seen a pretty boy last year but his mouth would still be full of teeth and mine isn’t ��

[Norwestalta]

This, nothing more nothing less, anyone who has ever seen an emaciated animal with its jaw blown off from a failed head shot woul think twice about head shots.

I haven't read all the comments but I do wonder how many animals you've seen personally that have had their jaw shot off vs legs shot off vs gut shot?

[boblly1]

have you ever seen a deer 8 or 10 weeks later with its bottom jaw shot off? After a head shot gone bad I have.I had to put it out of its misery and waste a tag on a deer that was staving to death. It is not for me no one will ever convince me to take that shot ever not after having seen that.

[whognu]

abortions and head shots

(most) everyone likes to be their sanctimonious best on these two issues

call it a hunch, no one is going to change their (mine included) view - ever

everyone shines up their 'morals and ethics' differently - that freedom is what grandad fought for

who are any of you here to say "I am right and you are 100% wrong?"

everyone has a backstory

here's mine - hunted deer 35 years (ish), my gun shoots straight and i generally am capable of shooting straight

my self imposed restrictions:

under 30-40 yards, NOT MOVING ill take a head shot every single time

beyond this, or moving - in the boiler room every single time

i have shot lots of deer (yet currently find myself in a bit of a drought...........was going to go to the EK and help that rock guy close the deal.....)

sad thing, i have lost 3 deer in my life; all broadside, all within 200 yards, ALL BOILER ROOM, and all searched for 4 - 6 HOURS (no blood; no snow - fkk me this is agonizing)

so to wrap up and get you all going again

save the 'odd eyeball hanging out of its socket' head shot deer. mentioned earlier....

i bet a nickel that there are 10 (TEN) times more animals left to die in the woods from boiler rooms shots taken from far away and never followed up

at a minimum

chris

[KodiakHntr]

have you ever seen a deer 8 or 10 weeks later with its bottom jaw shot off? After a head shot gone bad I have.I had to put it out of its misery and waste a tag on a deer that was staving to death. It is not for me no one will ever convince me to take that shot ever not after having seen that.

I’m not advocating for or against headshots, but I would have to say that it would be awfully difficult for any animal
to eat with “its bottom jaw shot off”.... and there isn’t a deer alive that can survive “8 or 10 weeks” without any food.

Makes it tough to believe someone when they make impossible claims. Just sayin’.

[Norwestalta]

have you ever seen a deer 8 or 10 weeks later with its bottom jaw shot off? After a head shot gone bad I have.I had to put it out of its misery and waste a tag on a deer that was staving to death. It is not for me no one will ever convince me to take that shot ever not after having seen that.

Sounds like bullshit to me. I'm not saying it doesn't happen because I've seen a elk once with a busted jaw. Shot or not I can't say. I've shot a 3 legged bear that was supposedly shot a year or 2 before and ìve found a bullet in a elk that didn't come from my gun.

Imo a wild game animal that has been shot in the jaw is a rarity compared to how many are body shot that run off wounded to die a slow death. At the end of the day it's hunting and you'll never have the same situation twice.

[lowball]

Sounds like bullshit to me. I'm not saying it doesn't happen because I've seen a elk once with a busted jaw. Shot or not I can't say. I've shot a 3 legged bear that was supposedly shot a year or 2 before and ìve found a bullet in a elk that didn't come from my gun.

Imo a wild game animal that has been shot in the jaw is a rarity compared to how many are body shot that run off wounded to die a slow death. At the end of the day it's hunting and you'll never have the same situation twice.

Good post!

[rocksteady]

Sounds like bullshit to me. I'm not saying it doesn't happen because I've seen a elk once with a busted jaw. Shot or not I can't say. I've shot a 3 legged bear that was supposedly shot a year or 2 before and ìve found a bullet in a elk that didn't come from my gun.

Imo a wild game animal that has been shot in the jaw is a rarity compared to how many are body shot that run off wounded to die a slow death. At the end of the day it's hunting and you'll never have the same situation twice.

Amen brother..

[gcreek]

Lungs always. No animal goes far without breathing and they are bled out internally when you get to them. Head shot, 100 yard walk, heart has stopped beating so worthless to cut the throat, carcass bleeds forever, poorer eating experience all around.

Could never understand shoulder shots either, have had a hunter shoot a big moose in the shoulder, broke the leg, I trailed him for three miles and shot him in his bed ( with a head shot ) There were no vitals touched inside the body cavity.

Each to his own.

[r106]

I've never taken a head shot, not against taking one depending on the circumstances. The boiler room is a bigger target and a guaranty its dead.

[Foxton Gundogs]

I haven't read all the comments but I do wonder how many animals you've seen personally that have had their jaw shot off vs legs shot off vs gut shot?


I've personally seen one very nice buck almost starved to death with no functional bottom jaw left my partner burned a tag putting it out of its mystery. I have never in 7 yrs of guiding and 61 yrs of hunting seen a gut shot or crippled animal that had gotten away to live suffer and die slowly. Boiler room always. Next question.

[338win mag]

Only time I shoot anything in the head is when I walk up and have a look, move back about 10-15 ft, shoot.

[bearvalley]

Last time I weighed in on the headshot issue a lot of drama came forth when I said “ a headshot at a moose running straight away at 300 yards was unethical”.
I still say the same.

[whitlers]

Took a head shot once on a buck. It was the only shot I had. I will never do it again. Had I not followed up with another quick shot I am sure he would have gotten away and suffered. When I got to him I noticed I had broken his lower jaw with the first round.

Never again..ever.

[Walksalot]

There are hunters who condemn head shots but don't have a problem shooting at an animal on the run. Which is higher risk to wound? Hitting a smaller target at close range or trying to compute distance, speed and hold over in seconds. When an animal is gut shot the gut pushes against the rib cage and for all intents and purposes seals the hole and the only time rumen is expelled, in many cases, is when the holes line up and that may only be a few drops. The hunter concludes a miss and the animal is left to crawl away and left to a slow demise. Personally, if the animal is under what I presume to be under 50 yds I will consider a head or neck shot but after that I go for behind the front shoulder. I have let some pretty nice animals carry on as I deemed them high risk to wound shots.

[mcmullmar]

Only time I would head shot, if the animal was already down I was was just finishing off at a very close range.

[Leaseman]

I have done a number of head shots..... never an issue.

You need to where your rifle shoots and your own capabilities. Period.

You know these and you are good.


Yes, I will continue doing them when the opportunity presents itself.

[Rieber]

Some of you are talking about 200+ yard headshots - in my opinion that is too much room for error.

My headshots have inside 60yards with the deer facing straight at me or straight at me but head down feeding. And when I say head I'm including the high neck. But if the animal is in a spot where I will still have him in sight and I know he's going to turn eventually, I take him broadside for sure.

My shots, for the most part, range from 25-80 yards and I'm always using a rest of sorts. No more freehand shooting for me other than grouse.

[tigrr]

Nope. Seen a cow moose with her lower jaw shot off. Seen a whitetail buck with it's sinuses blown out.
Didn't have a gun to end it for them.

[Foxton Gundogs]

I have done a number of head shots..... never an issue.

You need to where your rifle shoots and your own capabilities. Period.

You know these and you are good.


Yes, I will continue doing them when the opportunity presents itself.

No, not Period. All it takes is a slight movement from an animal as you squeeze the trigger for things to go horribly wrong. No matter how good you are( or think you are are) you don't control all of the circumstances that govern a clean kill shot. A movement of 4" can happen in a split second and make a Charlie Foxtrot out of a "well placed" head shot but 4" in the boiler room will in all probability still be a kill shot.

[Weatherby Fan]

Well in the end it really comes down to one's confidence, capabilities and the situation that presents itself, if you feel head shots are unethical don't do it...its really that simple, its like telling someone they shouldn't shoot at animals over 300 yards its unethical ? to each their own and you should know your capabilities, again if head shots aren't your thing don't do it.

I found three dead bucks on different days in Oct a few years ago all were broadside shots, two were gut shot and one was still warm, I could hear a quad up the hill so searched around and found the chaps that were looking for their deer, they couldn't speak a word of English but I was able to show them the deer which they were delighted and claimed they shot it.

[TheTwelve]

Ok I’m a little confused... so I have a question for all the members that have seen or done head shots where the bullet ricochets off the skull.. What rifles, rounds, and distance are being shot at that allow a bullet to ricochet off an animal skull? If the skull is that strong, why aren’t they being used for body armour or protective purposes? I may not know a lot, but I see people using hunting rifles at the range blowing holes in brake rotors and steel plate at 100+ yards.. so it just doesn’t make sense that it would ricochet unless the distance was very far where the bullet speed drops to that point..

[835]

12,
I would love to hear the same thing. I would not be fast to believe anyone has had a "ricochet" ... Glancing blows for sure, but a "between the eyes" ricochet.... no way. unless your way way way undergunned

[Leaseman]

No, not Period. All it takes is a slight movement from an animal as you squeeze the trigger for things to go horribly wrong. No matter how god you are( or think you are are) you don't control all of the circumstances that govern a clean kill shot. A movement of 4" can happen in a split second and make a Charlie Foxtrot out of a "well placed" head shot but 4" in the boiler room will in all probability still be a kill shot.

Says you......

Maybe you have issues hitting something close, I don't. Never have had a problem, don't expect one!

BTW, I am not a god, but thanks for saying it!!

[srupp]

Says you......

Maybe you have issues hitting something close, I don't. Never have had a problem, don't expect one!

BTW, I am not a god, but thanks for saying it!!


Hmmm ewe are a god to me Mike..fishing god...cooking god etc etc
Cheers buddy
Steven

[Leaseman]

Thanks!:lol:

Will call you tomorrow if you are around.....

[Foxton Gundogs]

Well if you can think you can control the forces of nature maybe you are or just arrogant animals will do what animals will do and they can F up a shot by moving just a bit. A movement of 4" means everything when dealing with a target 6" around, not near so much with a large kill zone like the boiler room. Get down off that high horse Mike I was not questioning your marksmanship only stating a fact no one has control of outside forces that govern a shot on a live creature. Jeez man don't be so insecure it's not about your shooting ability it's about minimizing risks how many times have you seen or heard of an animal ducking an archery shot. $hit happens save the higher risk shots for gongs and paper. And BTW thanks for pointing out my type O fixed now.

[srupp]

Thanks!:lol:

Will call you tomorrow if you are around.....

Yes...Detlef Iis here..
Cheers
Steven

[Big Lew]

Not directing it any anyone in particular, but I've always wondered if those that claim
to be excellent shots would ever admit that they made a poor shot resulting in wounding
an animal. I've always admitted that I'm not a great marksman...average at best, so I
know my limits. Taking a risky shot isn't something I'll do and that's why I've let far more
animals walk than I've shot.

[835]

ironically .... I have meesed up and lost one deer and it was a Chest shot. maybe 150yards ... clear shot alright rest.... no idea what happened.... tracked it forever eventually stopped bleeding.

[wideopenthrottle]

I don't claim to be an excellent shot and when I was new to big game hunting I was scared to make a big mess of the boiler room but after gutting a couple I was no longer worried....DONT FORGET: water cleans everything off....one time, I shot the antler off my biggest WT buck on a follow up shot so I decided to never use a head shot except to finish off a wounded animal while standing beside it.

The 5x4 rack hangs in shame in the garage held together with wood glue and screws

[Ubertuber]

I've taken a few moose with head shots and only one deer. The moose were less than 30 yards away, quartering away, and about 30 feet below me. Right behind the ear, all of them dropped like a stone. The deer was a similar circumstance, it was very close and offered a shot suitable for behind the ear.
I took a moose with a neck shot once. He was 40 yards away and facing me. When he turned his head hard to one side, I could clearly see the lines from the vertebra in his neck, so I took the shot. He too dropped in his tracks.
Those are about the only shots I would do head or neck. Everything else is boiler room.

[Wild one]

Not directing it any anyone in particular, but I've always wondered if those that claim
to be excellent shots would ever admit that they made a poor shot resulting in wounding
an animal. I've always admitted that I'm not a great marksman...average at best, so I
know my limits. Taking a risky shot isn't something I'll do and that's why I've let far more
animals walk than I've shot.

I would not claim to be an excellent shot but I know my limits and stick well within them. I may be willing to take a head, neck, or tougher angles but almost all the animals I have shot are under 50yards. At that range it’s not hard to be good and it’s also easy to have a record that I have almost no misses either

In 29 years I have missed 4 big game animals and lost 2(chest shots went wrong) hunting with shotgun, muzzle loader, compound, rifle, crossbow, and recurve( have not let an arrow fly). 2 of those misses were from knocking out my sight during the hunt. Not perfect but I am far from a hot mess shooting beyond my limits

If I am going to be judged for taking a 20yard head shots on a calm animals oh well

[rocksteady]

Everyone has their own comfort zone based on experience and abilities.. i have taken lots of head shots (all succesful by the way) but at a distance where i was comfy with the firearm in my hand that i knew it was a slam dunk.. head shots are lethal.. if you are comfortable with them, take them.. if not, wait for a broadside..

[Foxton Gundogs]

I am not sure why everyone is stuck on the ability issue. It is NOT about ability, or caliber or whether your bullet is premium or not, it is about the X factor we have no control over #1 being the animal it's self, you are not aiming at an inanimate object that will always stand nicely wait to be shot. You may go your whole life and never have an oops moment or you could have several. The point is when it goes wrong it usually goes horribly wrong and the animal pays the price. Like Gcreek and others have said, an animal doesn't go far when they can't breath retain blood or blood pressure. They can go for days with no bottom jaw or destroyed sinuses.

[Norwestalta]

I've never lost a animal by head shooting. They've all dropped in their tracks. I have lost a bull elk by body shooting and have tracked numerous deer that were supposedly shot in the boiler.

[fuzzybiscuit]

Like Gcreek and others have said, an animal doesn't go far when they can't breath retain blood or blood pressure. They can go for days with no bottom jaw or destroyed sinuses.

I hate these thread because the holier-than-thou’s always get up on their high horses and it gets my blood pressure peaking but regardless here I am. So, answer me this old wise one, “how long will they go if shot in the guts?” I’ll answer it for you, a very long time.

Every shot on an animal poses a risk of a bad shot. That’s just the way it is because there ARE lots a variables. Shoot at enough animals and eventually you make a bad shot. Maybe it’s just a twig you didn’t see deflect the bullet slightly... I believe in making high percentage shots and under 50 yards in the thick timber hunting Blacktails a head shot is a dead deer every time, and I’ve made dozens of them. If you waited for the perfect broadside shot you wouldn’t get many deer in the thick stuff. Now out in the open at 150 yards a broadside shot is a no brainer, but it is every bit as hard a shot as under 50 yards in the head. The deer moves at the last second and it’s in the guts. Plus, even a perfect lung shot on a deer and it quite often runs for a bit. In the kinds of spots I used to hunt on the island you might never find it with 3 foot high salal. Anchor them where they stand with one in the brain and you won’t have to spend hours looking for them.

I spend my time at the range and I shoot from all positions when doing so. I see a lot of guys shooting that never fire a shot unless their gun is in the leadsled. So, the gun shoots great but the bozo shooting it couldn’t hit the broadside of a barn standing up. How often do you have a perfect rest when walking around? Now if you’re a road hunter, and I have nothing against road hunting, then ones always available when your sitting in the seat, but hiking around? Not very often and when in the timber 9 out of 10 times that deer already knows you’re there. Walk one more step after spotting it and it’s gone. In cases like that if I had a broadside shot I’d take it and if it was only a head shot I’d take that too.

The reality is some hunters, probably quite a few that have already posted on this thread, shouldn’t shoot at a animal regardless of what shot is available unless they were shooting from their leadsled because that’s all their good at shooting from.

[Looking_4_Jerky]

Well this turned out to be an interesting thread. What I learned from it was how many people are very narrow-minded. Like, "what I do is right 100% of the time".

As some have said, there are many different circumstances and each warrants its own assessment. I am of the firm belief that more animals die slowly from body shots gone wrong than by head shots gone wrong. And, particularly if you are an archery hunter and are against head shots based on ethics arguments, you need to reconsider. Your cleanest kills involve an animal running some distance after being shot. My cleanest kills involve an animal dying the second my bullet contacts it. Either one of our shots has the potential for error resulting in non-lethal contact and slow death.

Sometimes it is extremely important to park an animal in its tracks, like if taking a few steps means going down wobbly and toppling down a cliff or other steep ground that complicates retrieval. When animals go down where you shoot them, you can landmark them better, which is also important in tall vegetation. If an animal can run and you don't see where they die, you end up having to look over a large area.

Based on the above, it does surprise me that so many members are opposed. I would have expected a more even split of people for both sides.

For what it's worth, I will always err toward a quick death for the animal, meaning that I prefer headshots if they are "safe" (distance, from a solid rest, etc). Not saying it is always the go-to for every situation, but that at times it's a logical choice. You are the one best equipped to determine which way to go based on what's going on at the time. Don't buy the "it's not ethical" position.

[Leaseman]

Well if you can think you can control the forces of nature maybe you are or just arrogant animals will do what animals will do and they can F up a shot by moving just a bit. A movement of 4" means everything when dealing with a target 6" around, not near so much with a large kill zone like the boiler room. Get down off that high horse Mike I was not questioning your marksmanship only stating a fact no one has control of outside forces that govern a shot on a live creature. Jeez man don't be so insecure it's not about your shooting ability it's about minimizing risks how many times have you seen or heard of an animal ducking an archery shot. $hit happens save the higher risk shots for gongs and paper. And BTW thanks for pointing out my type O fixed now.

Too funny!
Done any 500+ yard shots on animals lately?? Of course you can control the forces of nature there, right!?;-)

I am not the one on a high horse nor the one insecure!:lol:

Just stating what I have done with no issues. To each their own!

[835]

so 12,
go re read my first statement in post #4 this is what I meant.

Here in this thread you have a bunch of guys with some very real experience. Some hunting for decades and not just one or 2. If you took a piece of paper and wrote "Yes" on one side and "No" on the other I bet you would find this is pretty equally divided... Right?

always error to the side of caution. "Stay away from headshots" is not bad advice. "Take headshots" could be bad advice. I have taken a number of head shots and never failed. but I would also never say "Go for it"

[Bugle M In]

Not directing it any anyone in particular, but I've always wondered if those that claim
to be excellent shots would ever admit that they made a poor shot resulting in wounding
an animal. I've always admitted that I'm not a great marksman...average at best, so I
know my limits. Taking a risky shot isn't something I'll do and that's why I've let far more
animals walk than I've shot.

Before some physical downfalls, I was a great shot.
But now, with physical limitations, I am totally aware of what I am still comfortable with and not.

BUT, just because I was a great shot at the range, doesn't mean the same shots are possible in the field.
I don't need to explain all the differences as most here should be able to come up with a few reasons, although there are many.

Head shot blowing off the jaw, is no different I suppose then a bad gut shot.
Some bad shots animals recover from, some they never do.
I don't know why all the arguing between each other.
Whats the point?

I think when I was younger, I didn't see some of the risks I was taking.
Being older, experience has shown me what can go wrong as well.
Hunting is no different than life.
You have to walk it to learn it.

IF all I can do is tell some of the younger folks "my mistakes", hopefully they don't have to learn everyone one of them on their own.
Might even have more "success" when it all over.
Shoot where may of the organs sit.
Try to realize a head shot or a spine shot is a "very small area".
Better odds around the shoulder.

[willyqbc]

I'm not gonna say wether i do or don't take headshots....if you do for your own reasons....fine by me, if you don't for your own reasons....fine by me

However, I will throw something else out there to think about......lets look at a typical 180 accubond going 2800 fps out of a 30-06....lets say 300 yd shot, not what most would consider difficult or unreasonable. Now lets throw in a 10 mph full value wind.
"IF" you have a wind meter, and actually KNOW the wind speed....how many folks in the bush know how much that bullet is going to drift at 300 yds? my sense of things is most folks don't think environmetals matter much under 300 yds. Well that bullet is going to drift 6" at 300 yds and be in the air just under 1/2 a second, when you add in the time it takes for the shot to break etc, lets say 1 second total from commiting to the shot, breaking it off and the bullet arriving. As stated above, a lot can go wrong with a little movement on the animals part....lets say the critter leans forward 6" just before taking a step, and there is a sudden lull in the wind as you break the shot.....you're now 12" off intended point of aim.
It would be quite rare i think to find any but the most seasoned/practiced shooters that can hold groups to 1 moa or less at 300 yds in a hunting situation from a field rest....more likely 2 moa is realistic, so roughly 6-7"....so potentially thats another 3" off your point of aim....we're now up to 15" from intended point of aim.... thats guts or brisket with no vitals on a deer sized critter....
This is to say nothing of the folks who sighted in their rifle in +20 C and are now deer hunting at -15 C in november and have no idea if/how much the muzzle velocity is reduced with that temperature swing. Or they sighted in at home on the coast at sea level, and are now hunting the mountains at 5000 ft....what does that do to your particular loads drops at distance???

Anyway, point of all my rambling....crap can happen every single time we touch off a shot. whether we are talking about a 50 yd headshot, or a 300 yd broadside, and I think where most folks get into trouble, is because they are

1. not honest with themselves about their shooting ability in the field with the adrenaline pumping
2. they DO NOT NOW exactly what their bullet trajectory will do in different conditions and at different distances

so....is there a big difference between trying to hit a 3" target zone at 50 yds vs a 12" target zone at 300 yds when ALL factors are taken into consideration???

I will leave that to each individual to answer for themselves.....

[Leaseman]

Where is the like button?? ;-)

[Foxton Gundogs]

Too funny!
Done any 500+ yard shots on animals lately?? Of course you can control the forces of nature there, right!?;-)

I am not the one on a high horse nor the one insecure!:lol:

Just stating what I have done with no issues. To each their own!

You are the funny one, immediately you change this into a personal deal when All I did was quote your sentence "You need to where your rifle shoots and your own capabilities. Period.". I was arguing with the fact that you say Your above statement is "PERIOD" or in other words that is all there is to it, when I stated there were other factors involved than knowing your rifle and your ability when really there is much more involved in any shot than that. Of course those are a factor but not the End of story or as you said PERIOD. You chose to take it and make it personal. As for 500 yd shots, yes that is my self imposed max for living critters(well except for varmints) and I acknowledge and accept the risks and evaluate each separately before shooting, but you are comparing crab apples= O to watermelons= O, when comparing targets. Leave the drama at "home" and discuss the issue like an adult in case you missed the point the discussion at least on my part is there are far more factors in play than knowing your rifle and ability. I for one would have been glad to have that discussion with you civilly but apparently you prefer to drag up old animosity from another place and time and make it personal. Chill man you will be much happier.

[Norwestalta]

One thing I don't think anyone can argue with is that we owe it to the animal to dispatch it in a humanely and effective manner as possible.

Having said that I have to question the boiler room only guys how many times they've had to shoot their animal twice? I know on most of the kills I've been on it has taken 2. One to anchor it and the other to dispatch it.

[brian]

If you ever removed a deer brain from its skull you'd realize how small the target is. I am not a good enough shot to reliably hit it from respectable distances under field conditions. I will not take head shots. Saying that I do take neck shots with buckshot.

[KodiakHntr]

However, I will throw something else out there to think about......lets look at a typical 180 accubond going 2800 fps out of a 30-06....lets say 300 yd shot, not what most would consider difficult or unreasonable. Now lets throw in a 10 mph full value wind.
"IF" you have a wind meter, and actually KNOW the wind speed....how many folks in the bush know how much that bullet is going to drift at 300 yds? my sense of things is most folks don't think environmetals matter much under 300 yds. Well that bullet is going to drift 6" at 300 yds and be in the air just under 1/2 a second, when you add in the time it takes for the shot to break etc, lets say 1 second total from commiting to the shot, breaking it off and the bullet arriving. As stated above, a lot can go wrong with a little movement on the animals part....lets say the critter leans forward 6" just before taking a step, and there is a sudden lull in the wind as you break the shot.....you're now 12" off intended point of aim.
It would be quite rare i think to find any but the most seasoned/practiced shooters that can hold groups to 1 moa or less at 300 yds in a hunting situation from a field rest....more likely 2 moa is realistic, so roughly 6-7"....so potentially thats another 3" off your point of aim....we're now up to 15" from intended point of aim.... thats guts or brisket with no vitals on a deer sized critter....



Actually, in that scenario, at 3500’ elevation and 10*C you would be 2.3” of drift and a 0.36 second TOF with a 10.6mph full value wind at 300 yards.... Just sayin’.

[MichelD]

Oh Boy.

Glad I'm not in this bun fight.

[Wild one]

Nothing wrong with boiler room and I doubt most need 2 shots choosing to do so. Personally don’t find the need for a follow up often but will take one given a good opportunity. Dropped animals on the spot with boiler room shots expecially when paying attention to angles and exit. Moose( probably elk never taken on)can be an exception but have even seen them drop on the spot with a simple chest shot no bone breaking

A good clean kill can be done in many ways and I believe in being versatile

[Bugle M In]

One thing I don't think anyone can argue with is that we owe it to the animal to dispatch it in a humanely and effective manner as possible.

Having said that I have to question the boiler room only guys how many times they've had to shoot their animal twice? I know on most of the kills I've been on it has taken 2. One to anchor it and the other to dispatch it.
Lets see,

I took my 1st ever elk with a straight on shot (yes stupid) at 335 yards and literally took out the windpipe (97% of it).
That bull ran 350+yards, and a couple of the shots in between due to him running almost towards me (???) weren't great.
And then the 4 th shot went thru the heart, but still took another 15 seconds for it to die.
I have taken multiple elk where the shot takes out the whole bottom small section of the heart, and none died instantly.
Usually destroys the liver in a million pieces, and yet they still ran.
But then took another bull, running across in front of me, with another shot to the heart and liver, all at once and it was dead before it hit
the ground.

For me, rarely has the animal dropped to the ground dead, even though I wouldn't have done anything different with the shot.
Not sure why they don't die instantaneously? at times, but only twice have I had to put a bullet behind the ears.
(which I do ASAP, I don't wait to see if it will die first)
And one of those shots behind the ear was from a "neck shot", so that should say something right there.

Excitement/Adrenaline have a lot to do with hunting/shooting compared to the range, conditions and rests also.
All I recommend is that if an animal falls and hasn't died, that we end it quick as we can.
I had one friend who took a deer who hadn't expired, and he wanted to just wait as he knew it would (I knew it would too), but just couldn't
accept him lighting up a cigarette and wait for that to happen.
I took care of it for him! and then had a few choice words. (that's what friends do!)

[willyqbc]

Actually, in that scenario, at 3500’ elevation and 10*C you would be 2.3” of drift and a 0.36 second TOF with a 10.6mph full value wind at 300 yards.... Just sayin’.

Kodiak, sincerely no disrespect intended, but not sure where you are getting your numbers.....using Brian Litz's BC's for the 180 accubond, two different ballistics calculators are giving me 5.6" and 6.0".....

anyway.... the actual numbers aren't important here, it was just an example to try and illustrate that to a shooter uneducated to the effect "environmentals" can have on bullet flight, a 300 yd broadside shot could be just as risky as a 50 yd head shot where environmental effects will be almost nil.

also to try and illustrate that as distance increases, and "field conditions" are factored in, shooter error and group size is very often not a linear relationship, just because a shooter can do 1" @100yds from the bench, that almost never translates to 3" @ 300 in the field....more likely 6" or more.

Point still being, you need to KNOW what your load will do under different conditions and at different distances to minimize your margin for error when the critters in the scope and your bloods runnin hot! Its amazing how many folks seem to think their rifle is a lazer death ray that just magically hits where the crosshairs are regardless of conditions, distance, uphiil/downhill etc, etc

again, not advocating one way or another as far as headshots go....but in some ways, there are less variables that can bite an inexperienced shooter when trying to hit the 3" 50 yd target vs the 12" 300 yd target

JMO

[KodiakHntr]

Kodiak, sincerely no disrespect intended, but not sure where you are getting your numbers.....using Brian Litz's BC's for the 180 accubond, two different ballistics calculators are giving me 5.6" and 6.0".....

anyway.... the actual numbers aren't important here, it was just an example to try and illustrate that to a shooter uneducated to the effect "environmentals" can have on bullet flight, a 300 yd broadside shot could be just as risky as a 50 yd head shot where environmental effects will be almost nil.

also to try and illustrate that as distance increases, and "field conditions" are factored in, shooter error and group size is very often not a linear relationship, just because a shooter can do 1" @100yds from the bench, that almost never translates to 3" @ 300 in the field....more likely 6" or more.

Point still being, you need to KNOW what your load will do under different conditions and at different distances to minimize your margin for error when the critters in the scope and your bloods runnin hot! Its amazing how many folks seem to think their rifle is a lazer death ray that just magically hits where the crosshairs are regardless of conditions, distance, uphiil/downhill etc, etc

again, not advocating one way or another as far as headshots go....but in some ways, there are less variables that can bite an inexperienced shooter when trying to hit the 3" 50 yd target vs the 12" 300 yd target

JMO

None taken. I just ran your numbers through Ballistic AE (formerly jbm).

But I agree with pretty much everything you put there. From what I witness, not many folks shoot as well as they think they do under pressure.

[835]

Oh Boy.

Glad I'm not in this bun fight.

oh come on jump in! its always fun!

[westcoast meds]

All depends on the situation . But if I feel good about the shot, have a rest and distance is reasonable I will most always take the head shot.

[fearnodeer]

Well done 4 heads shots with success on all of them, to me it is all about a comfort zone, how I am feeling at the time and this goes for long distance shots as well, these days I am liking a shoulder shot on bears for sure, shot the last 2 that way and both dropped dead on the spot.

[Leaseman]

You are the funny one, immediately you change this into a personal deal when All I did was quote your sentence "You need to where your rifle shoots and your own capabilities. Period.". I was arguing with the fact that you say Your above statement is "PERIOD" or in other words that is all there is to it, when I stated there were other factors involved than knowing your rifle and your ability when really there is much more involved in any shot than that. Of course those are a factor but not the End of story or as you said PERIOD. You chose to take it and make it personal. As for 500 yd shots, yes that is my self imposed max for living critters(well except for varmints) and I acknowledge and accept the risks and evaluate each separately before shooting, but you are comparing crab apples= O to watermelons= O, when comparing targets. Leave the drama at "home" and discuss the issue like an adult in case you missed the point the discussion at least on my part is there are far more factors in play than knowing your rifle and ability. I for one would have been glad to have that discussion with you civilly but apparently you prefer to drag up old animosity from another place and time and make it personal. Chill man you will be much happier.

Oh, I am very happy!!!

Always enjoy some of the drama here...!

Have a good Day FG.....I think you need a few of those!

[Foxton Gundogs]

I'm done with your drama Mike, keep it on your own site. If you want to discuss my original statement that there is more to any rifle shot than "knowing your rifle and your ability" that outside forces can have an effect on even the most perfect shot, fine, do it like an adult you know point counter point. If not then save your typing finger.

[SSG-man]

Buckshot close range incl in this debate ?

[fuzzybiscuit]

Buckshot close range incl in this debate ?

Sure, why not? Your thoughts on the subject?

[SSG-man]

Never done a body shot with buckshot


Sure, why not? Your thoughts on the subject?

[snipersights]

When I’m doing the doe hunt on Vancouver island it’s always head shots with 12 gauge buckshot and full choke

[brian]

Neck shots within 30 yards using buckshot for me. After many deer down, I don’t trust buckshot to give me a decent enough blood trail in the thick bush. Maybe a different story if I were hunting some open farmland. Drop em in their tracks instead, quickest death I can deliver.

[f350ps]

I think it's time to talk about Poo, this is getting old! Poo never gets old, we got the double twister with a DQ flip or the three coiler, the topic is endless! :) K

[Bugle M In]

I think it's time to talk about Poo, this is getting old! Poo never gets old, we got the double twister with a DQ flip or the three coiler, the topic is endless! :) K

Great, now suddenly there's going to be a ton of pics on the thread with everyone's "best of"!

[Hunter gatherer]

I think it's time to talk about Poo, this is getting old! Poo never gets old, we got the double twister with a DQ flip or the three coiler, the topic is endless! :) K
Don't forget the squirt and shart

[MOWITCH SLAYER]

Hey All
Took a head shot on a four point mulie once . Blew his bottom jaw right off . He never went down. Tracked him four miles down the mountain before he bedded down.Never again for me boiler room every time

[Bugle M In]

Hey All
Took a head shot on a four point mulie once . Blew his bottom jaw right off . He never went down. Tracked him four miles down the mountain before he bedded down.Never again for me boiler room every time

Good on you for being honest.
Same happened to me once, but was lucky that the buck just moved behind a hump and all I had to do was run 30 yards and fire again.
But, I wont do it again either after that.

Any shot is a great shot, when it goes as planned.
But, they don't always go as planned!
And it's admitting what happens when they don't go as planned so others can at least consider things they may not have thought of.
That goes for any shot, head shot or boiler room.
Breath and squeeze and get out there and practice some shooting when ever possible.

[wideopenthrottle]

one thing I like to do that goes against what some people will say is, while in the field, with nothing in the tube, I look for safe objects to shoulder and take aim at with intent to practice acquiring and steadying on a target. it quickly helps to show if you are getting to out of breath (going too fast) or if you had too many morning coffees.

[835]

Wide open..
a good thing to do that is fun as well is throw a 12x12" gong in the truck and shoot it after your hunt. 100-150-200....

[Foxton Gundogs]

Hey All
Took a head shot on a four point mulie once . Blew his bottom jaw right off . He never went down. Tracked him four miles down the mountain before he bedded down.Never again for me boiler room every time
My point exactly, Good for you for both speaking the truth and following up on the consequences, Hat is off to you sir.

[wideopenthrottle]

Wide open..
a good thing to do that is fun as well is throw a 12x12" gong in the truck and shoot it after your hunt. 100-150-200....

yes of course it is important to practice under controlled situations but also when under field conditions as well.

[biggyun68]

Heart and lung shot on big game for me because I follow a veterinarians advice, and have had a bad experience with a head shot:

Probably the best book on big game kill shots written by a veterinarian and African Professional Hunting Guide instructor: Dr. Kevin Robertson https://drkevinrobertson.com/
The Perfect Shot: Shot Placement for African Big Game: https://www.amazon.ca/Perfect-Shot-Placement-African-Game/dp/1571571639


Dr Robertson is on record with saying the most humane and best kill shot is to hit the top of the heart and both lungs: by taking out the top of the heart you take out every major artery and vein supplying the body, and the most blood vessel rich area of the lungs. The loss in blood pressure is so acute that death and unconsciousness is almost immediate.

I have not read this book and I have included it for reference because a quick look at the author seems the guy knows what he is talking about. Craig Boddington: https://www.craigboddington.com/

The Perfect shot: https://www.amazon.ca/Perfect-Shot-North-America-Placement/dp/1571572678/ref=pd_sim_14_4/136-7794659-3244415?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=1571572678&pd_rd_r=87ae6b2d-6f4f-48ee-9dec-a93c35d7ea68&pd_rd_w=3WJ55&pd_rd_wg=y72kd&pf_rd_p=bcf387b8-a13f-4873-9cf6-d11098fead4e&pf_rd_r=E01B9MGHWSV0JTH0EGKP&psc=1&refRID=E01B9MGHWSV0JTH0EGKP

[Daryl]

I've had this conversation with friend who said he prefers a neck shot, when its available. Theres somewhat more room for error, with minimal meat waste. Some marksmanship is still going to be a big factor, as well as range and the amount of force your bullet is going to deliver.
Less risk than a head shot, but until I'm that sure I've got my sniper skills that sharp, I'll still go for double lung

[Bugle M In]

I find that all my shots end up 3" or so behind the shoulder (I don't want to ruin any good meat if possible, so I don't aim right into the shoulder),
and fairly low, maybe the bottom 1/3-1/4 of the animal.
Seems the liver is taken out everytime and just clips the bottom of the heart (on an elk anyways).
I think because I hit the bottom of the heart, the elk may not drop instantly, but between the bottom of the heart missing and the liver being
gone, the entire cavity of the elk is filled with blood, which I guess is a good thing?.
I do know I see most people shoot their game much higher, mid point it seems, which is the lungs, and they seem to have fast results.

I may have to move my shot to the crease of the rear edge of shoulder then 3" behind?
Might blood shock a bit of the shoulder meat, but maybe this will be a more direct in the middle heart shot.
If, not, then I have to go 2 or 3" higher??
Can look at a ton of pictures as to where the heart is, and I think I have it right, but I am off by just a little everytime?

[biggyun68]

I find that all my shots end up 3" or so behind the shoulder (I don't want to ruin any good meat if possible, so I don't aim right into the shoulder),
and fairly low, maybe the bottom 1/3-1/4 of the animal.
Seems the liver is taken out everytime and just clips the bottom of the heart (on an elk anyways).
I think because I hit the bottom of the heart, the elk may not drop instantly, but between the bottom of the heart missing and the liver being
gone, the entire cavity of the elk is filled with blood, which I guess is a good thing?.
I do know I see most people shoot their game much higher, mid point it seems, which is the lungs, and they seem to have fast results.

I may have to move my shot to the crease of the rear edge of shoulder then 3" behind?
Might blood shock a bit of the shoulder meat, but maybe this will be a more direct in the middle heart shot.
If, not, then I have to go 2 or 3" higher??
Can look at a ton of pictures as to where the heart is, and I think I have it right, but I am off by just a little everytime?

Have a look at this site:
http://app.fw.ky.gov/Elk101/courses/course1/chapter5.aspx

[rocksteady]

Heart, lungs, head, neck, all lethal.. i will take the shot presented to me on a hunt.. if i think i have a high rate of sucess.. boom.. if not, wait for a better opportunity

[rocksteady]

And aint gonna beeatch on someone for them taking a shot that they thought was money

[wideopenthrottle]

I have this one on my favourites...it is kinda related....from what I know, it seems like accurate info to me but there are many here with more experience that might dispute some of the details?
https://www.ballisticstudies.com/Knowledgebase/Game+Killing+Fundamentals.html

[rocksteady]

Nice write up BUT it is the authors opinion.. just cause its on the net dont make it gospel or true..

[Bugle M In]

Have a look at this site:
http://app.fw.ky.gov/Elk101/courses/course1/chapter5.aspx

interesting thing:

the 1st pic shows the heart more or less right behind the front shoulder.
But, if you look at the circulatory pic further down the page, the heart sits a little further back, with some of it behind the shoulder but a
part of it back of the shoulder.
Which is more what I experience and thus always just clip the bottom edge of heart.
Thin king more into the shoulder is a better placement.

Just saying, different pics are still a little different, if only by inches, but it can make a difference between a square hit or only a partial.
Thanks for the link.

[Bustercluck]

https://i.imgur.com/LEbWkQ6.jpg

[Bustercluck]

I haven't read this whole post, but I instantly thought of it when I did this yesterday.
https://i.imgur.com/QIaBhc5.jpg

[wideopenthrottle]

was that the first shot or a follow up that hit the antler?

when I first saw your pic I thought you were trying to send a message of "stop debating and go kill one" ….heheheh

[Bustercluck]

was that the first shot or a follow up that hit the antler?

when I first saw your pic I thought you were trying to send a message of "stop debating and go kill one" ….heheheh
That was the first shot through some trees. I was just trying to get him to turn broadside so I could punch one through his lungs...

[Livewire322]

That was the first shot through some trees. I was just trying to get him to turn broadside so I could punch one through his lungs...

This is an entirely new topic: the ethics of warning shots. :razz:

[srupp]

Hmmm several years ago I called in a bull from 4..5..kms while on a remote fly in lake in northern BC.
I managed to call him into just over 125 yards from the meat pole in our camp.
On examination I found a bullet hole through his antler very simmilar to your photo .
The hole was made by a previous hunter.....no one was currently at our lake...and the river, and other lakes were at least 5 kilometers away....
I posted the photo here on this website.
Cheers
Srupp

[lakelander]

http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=7601&stc=1

Head shot gone wrong. That's why I never take it. Margin of error and risk is too high for me although I can hit a loonie at 100 yds 4 out 5 times. It's that one time that I miss the loonie that deters me. But that's just me.

[cptnoblivious]

I personally wouldn't take a head shot. Pretty small target, too easy to make a huge mess (like shown above).

[willyqbc]

Head shot gone wrong. That's why I never take it.

That looks a lot more like an escape from a predator attack, than a missed headshot. looking close, it appears there are 4 claw marks evenly spaced from above the eye to the ear.

........would need to be some kind of JFK magic bullet, to peel the skin off the lower jaw, rake across the top of the nose, rake vertically from ear to throat, and take out the eye

JMO

[rocksteady]

I could show you pics of an animal that hot gut shot or in the shoulder, that would not be pleasant either..

There are bad shots across the whole body of an animal at certain times... no matter where you aim stuff can go wrong..

[KodiakHntr]

That looks a lot more like an escape from a predator attack, than a missed headshot. looking close, it appears there are 4 claw marks evenly spaced from above the eye to the ear.

........would need to be some kind of JFK magic bullet, to peel the skin off the lower jaw, rake across the top of the nose, rake vertically from ear to throat, and take out the eye

JMO

Yep, looks like a predator attack that was unsuccessful to me as well.

[wideopenthrottle]

maybe ssg from a tree stand...maybe cat claws on the side and a bite on the chin….hard to say..but definitely not from a single projectile if it is a hunting wound-good eye noticing the parallel lines

[lakelander]

That looks a lot more like an escape from a predator attack, than a missed headshot. looking close, it appears there are 4 claw marks evenly spaced from above the eye to the ear.

........would need to be some kind of JFK magic bullet, to peel the skin off the lower jaw, rake across the top of the nose, rake vertically from ear to throat, and take out the eye

JMO

Maybe it was or maybe it was shot with buck shot..who knows. I'm sure the end result is the same. I just used it to demonstrate why I wouldn't take a head shot.

[KodiakHntr]

I would imagine that a lot of young cats trying to make their first kills have a lot of wounding loss....

[Dannybuoy]

I've had this conversation with friend who said he prefers a neck shot, when its available. Theres somewhat more room for error, with minimal meat waste. Some marksmanship is still going to be a big factor, as well as range and the amount of force your bullet is going to deliver.
Less risk than a head shot, but until I'm that sure I've got my sniper skills that sharp, I'll still go for double lung
That's the shot I take every time when under 100 yds (neck), so far 0.0 steps taken on approx 40 bucks . Have also taken a few body (heart/lung ) shots, bucks always have traveled 50 to 100 yds. (25-06) Moose , I have always taken the boiler room shot as more room for error with neck and cuz I use a .264 mag and that's a bang flop.

[Dannybuoy]

Heart and lung shot on big game for me because I follow a veterinarians advice, and have had a bad experience with a head shot:

Probably the best book on big game kill shots written by a veterinarian and African Professional Hunting Guide instructor: Dr. Kevin Robertson https://drkevinrobertson.com/
The Perfect Shot: Shot Placement for African Big Game: https://www.amazon.ca/Perfect-Shot-Placement-African-Game/dp/1571571639


Dr Robertson is on record with saying the most humane and best kill shot is to hit the top of the heart and both lungs: by taking out the top of the heart you take out every major artery and vein supplying the body, and the most blood vessel rich area of the lungs. The loss in blood pressure is so acute that death and unconsciousness is almost immediate.

I have not read this book and I have included it for reference because a quick look at the author seems the guy knows what he is talking about. Craig Boddington: https://www.craigboddington.com/

The Perfect shot: https://www.amazon.ca/Perfect-Shot-North-America-Placement/dp/1571572678/ref=pd_sim_14_4/136-7794659-3244415?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=1571572678&pd_rd_r=87ae6b2d-6f4f-48ee-9dec-a93c35d7ea68&pd_rd_w=3WJ55&pd_rd_wg=y72kd&pf_rd_p=bcf387b8-a13f-4873-9cf6-d11098fead4e&pf_rd_r=E01B9MGHWSV0JTH0EGKP&psc=1&refRID=E01B9MGHWSV0JTH0EGKP
If this was the most humane shot then the slaughter houses would be doing it ..... they smack em right between the eyes so myth busted

[GEF]

I guess old Karamojo Bell didn't know what he was doing shooting 1011 of those tuskers in the brain with a 6.5x54.
HMMMM!

[fuzzybiscuit]

Maybe it was or maybe it was shot with buck shot..who knows. I'm sure the end result is the same. I just used it to demonstrate why I wouldn't take a head shot.

So you picked a picture that more than likely isn’t showing a headshot gone wrong because it fit your agenda of all headshots are bad??? That’s like me showing a picture of a roadkill deer with 20 feet of intestines pulled out of it and then stating that’s why I don’t like body shots...

[lakelander]

So you picked a picture that more than likely isn’t showing a headshot gone wrong because it fit your agenda of all headshots are bad??? That’s like me showing a picture of a roadkill deer with 20 feet of intestines pulled out of it and then stating that’s why I don’t like body shots...

No, I picked that picture because I thought it was a head shot. It was pointed out on the forum that it looked like it could be a predator attack. I can find a picture of a definite head shot gone wrong if you're really hung up about it :)

[fuzzybiscuit]

No, I picked that picture because I thought it was a head shot. It was pointed out on the forum that it looked like it could be a predator attack. I can find a picture of a definite head shot gone wrong if you're really hung up about it :)

Why don’t you save us from any more gross pictures of what you think is a bad headshot and I’ll concede that they do happen. Just like bad body shots do happen. The only difference is that bad body shots happen way more frequently.:lol::lol:

[whognu]

abortions and head shots

(most) everyone likes to be their sanctimonious best on these two issues

call it a hunch, no one is going to change their (mine included) view - ever

everyone shines up their 'morals and ethics' differently - that freedom is what grandad fought for

who are any of you here to say "I am right and you are 100% wrong?"

everyone has a backstory

here's mine - hunted deer 35 years (ish), my gun shoots straight and i generally am capable of shooting straight

my self imposed restrictions:

under 30-40 yards, NOT MOVING ill take a head shot every single time

beyond this, or moving - in the boiler room every single time

i have shot lots of deer (yet currently find myself in a bit of a drought...........was going to go to the EK and help that rock guy close the deal.....)

sad thing, i have lost 3 deer in my life; all broadside, all within 200 yards, ALL BOILER ROOM, and all searched for 4 - 6 HOURS (no blood; no snow - fkk me this is agonizing)

so to wrap up and get you all going again

save the 'odd eyeball hanging out of its socket' head shot deer. mentioned earlier....

i bet a nickel that there are 10 (TEN) times more animals left to die in the woods from boiler rooms shots taken from far away and never followed up

at a minimum

chris


what he said...........

[BRvalley]

If this was the most humane shot then the slaughter houses would be doing it ..... they smack em right between the eyes so myth busted

well slaughter houses also kill at point blank range and have control of the animals movements...not an equivalent comparison

I'm not against head shots, but they have limitations, only very close range for me....so far I've taken one head shot on a buck at 30 yards with a rest from my blind


here is a failed headshot, with another one in his velvet and then we dropped him with a boiler room shot....bumped into the other group that lost the moose and they said he dropped immediately, as they were walking up he jumped up and took off, second shot into his antlers.....with all the velvet bleeding there was a grizz already on him, wasn't happy we stole his dinner, had some nerve wracking company for the rest of the night

maybe the moose would have healed in this example, but the shooter didn't get the meat either

https://i.imgur.com/ykH55Ng.jpg?1

[lakelander]

Why don’t you save us from any more gross pictures of what you think is a bad headshot and I’ll concede that they do happen. Just like bad body shots do happen. The only difference is that bad body shots happen way more frequently.:lol::lol:

Yes bad body shots happen as well. Like I said, I wouldn't be comfortable taking head shots because it's a way smaller kill area. How do you know that bad body shots happen way more frequently? Is this based on your hunting party :) or is it an unfounded assumption? Ummm..

[Dannybuoy]

Brvalley that photo is why I haven't taken a head shot on a moose .... look at the size of that noggan! Way too much room for error , neck as well .
And I was pointing out that a boiler room or lung shot is not the most " humane " way to kill an animal even though it may be the best shot for the average hunter.

[rocksteady]

Aim small, miss small...

[grizzly550]

Neck or behind the shoulder in the vitals otherwise you should pass. Never take ahead shot. Head shots can result in deer having their mouth shot off and starving to death or a brain injury that is not lethal and the deer dies from starvation or predation as he is now an easy target.

[Wild one]

This thread is such a ethics train wreck

[GEF]

This thread is such a ethics train wreck
No Kidding !I thought anti hunters were judgmental .
If you cant make the shot dont take it be it,head, neck, shoulder, spine, rump.Far be it for anyone to judge someone else's shooting skill level.Where does it stop .Really !

[rocksteady]

In my life i have seen more animals with a front leg blown off and hanging limply (assume boiler room shot) than i have animals with lower jaws gone.. just saying

[fuzzybiscuit]

No Kidding !I thought anti hunters were judgmental .
If you cant make the shot dont take it be it,head, neck, shoulder, spine, rump.Far be it for anyone to judge someone else's shooting skill level.Where does it stop .Really !

We don’t need antis...we have each other..

[bearvalley]

This thread is such a ethics train wreck

Agreed!
This long running thread has done a great job of portraying how hunters maim wildlife.
Where’s our moderator stand on crap like this.....he’s shut down issues that were a lot less damaging.

[bearvalley]

We don’t need antis...we have each other..

If “we” refers to hunters...that’s a limited crowd.
I’m sure there’s a fair share of antis on this forum.

[Bugle M In]

In my life i have seen more animals with a front leg blown off and hanging limply (assume boiler room shot) than i have animals with lower jaws gone.. just saying

Point taken.
Any "bad shot" is a "bad shot"!
Yes, all sorts of injuries from stray bullets for sure.
Even with a sure shot to the boiler room can go south.

I think the thing to remember is, a head shot is a small target and a boiler room is a large target.
Now, if some cant make the boiler room shot work, just imagine a head shot working out for them.

Anyways, I am out of this thread.
No point on bashing each other.
Hopefully it just brought up some pro's/con's to the debate for each individual to think about.

What we have to remember is that we should always be as ethical as we can.
A clean kill is always something to strive for and not take lightly.
I am sure some shoot just to hope to hit the animal and hope it expires at some point.
Hail Mary shots are a bad idea!

[Norwestalta]

Makes me laugh that some are dead against a head shot while they condone running shots. Then I have to wonder is it the hunter that's running, the animal or both? Running towards each other or away from each other? So many questions and not enough answers. Lol

[Stone C. Killer]

I've taken 1 head shot. Mulie down!

[Cordillera]

When I sight in I get groups of about three to four inches and a few inches of variation between groups (small change in cheek position or shoulder or???). This is from controlled conditions on a very solid rest and a pretty good rifle. That means I have a total variation of about five or six inches between shots at 100 yards. Fine for a heart/lung where a kill zone is much bigger. But I honestly think I have a pretty decent chance of a miss on a head shot. The kill zone is pretty small.

If I had consistent groups of two inches I’d say go for it, but I’m just not there.

[Deer_Slayer]

Ask Lee Harvey Oswald how it worked for him

[walks with deer]

i shoot lots of game in the head only had one time it caused me greif..i would say i do 35% head shots no issue.no waste eitheir.

i would say depends if your locked on or not.a good rest and short range helps in the last 5 years i can think of 8 head shots. all doi.its actually my favorire if i feel up to it..and many many neck shots it moves less than the head.eight where the skull meats the neck.