BC moose hunting history

[srupp]

Hmmmmmm been reading why and how much allocation of our moose supply is going to the natives.
that chief Joe et all want 100 % of the moose reserved just for indians, their culture, ceremonies, sustenance. .sales..oops..
Got me thinking....
Moose are not known to be part of historical ceremonial tradition or substenance use in all or any of first nations contacted so far in BC.
YOU will not see a moose on a ceremonial totem pole hmmmmm why if they are SO important to their culture, ceremony, survival...hmmmmmm
there has never been any archaeological evidence supporting the moose prior to the 1900, s
1930..1940..show me the bones. ....
the word moose was first used in 1930, s..meaning twig eater. .the indians did not even have a name for this new animal.
Cecil Paul..Haisla elder.." moose were not here or even part of the stories when I was a child "
Frank Haneuse of Oweekeno nation..estimates their arrival about 1940 .
How did the natives survive without moose, what did they eat when the moose were not even here ?
they sure took a liking to them in the subsequent 80 years..so much so they demand them ALL to themselves.
What a crock of shyte.
Steven Rupp

[Shikari300WSM]

Ya I totally agree. I have to dig up the article with the studies done but you're right, little to no moose prior to 1900. So where do the keepers think they can have 100%of moose hunting to themselves? But of course the naive government is willing to play with the idea.

Outrageous and could rant about it for hours but we all know no one will say boo to the natives.

[Liveforthehunt]

Very frustrating.... total BS but who will say something and stick up for our own rights ? Our word against theirs ... if someone were to do that it would be racist and completely out of line just disgusting mr Rupp not sure what can be done to stabilize this to an equal ecological reality.

[338win mag]

Just because FN say this or that doesn't mean I believe it, I dont believe in legends let alone laws built on legends.
I guess what I mean is....I dont believe anything they say, anything, if they said there were moose, or no moose.

There were Moose in BC 200 years ago for sure as it was recorded in various fur traders journals, however, I have never read about them in the Chilcotin.....I dont believe in legends.

[Jagermeister]

Srupp, find a copy of Eric Collier’s book, Three Against the Wilderness. It chronicles his life and that of his wife and son at Meldrum Creek. In it he relates a story of the first known moose shot in the area in 1918 by two Indians. As the story goes they had no idea what they had killed having never seen one before. They had no known name for what they had shot.
Eric’s wife was an Indian woman and I believe her father was Chief Alexis whom Alexis Creek was named. Their son was Veasy Collier who served in WW2 and resided in Williams Lake.
Eric also tells of the reintroduction of beaver to Meldrum Creek that he and Ernie Holmes had facilitated. Ernie was the game warden for the Bowrun Lake area and he live trapped beavers there. This was before that area became a park and pre-dated Wells.
I knew Ernie quite well as I spent as much free time as I could at his gunsmith shop at Ollala.
Moose is the Algonquin word for the same animal known as elg in the Northern Europe.
Manx the first known moose shot this side of the continental divide was in Hazelton in 1910. Also by an Indian.
In all the stories related to hunting in the Bowrun Lake by gold miners and early settlers I have read or heard of moose there prior to the early 1920’s.

[Jagermeister]

Reading 338Mag’s post where he references moose in BC 200 years prior would most likely be incorrect.
what is known is that elk were in the area of the Cariboo/Chilcotin.
Harold Mitchell, head regional biologist for Region 5 back when, was taken to an area by Chilco Choate were there was a large presence of antler he believed was from elk. It was ancient but not fossilized. Mitchell collected samples for testing where it was established that they were elk and carbon dated to the early 1800s. Mitchell speculated there was a mass die off due to severe winter weather conditions around 1813 when it was recorded that the world had 2 years without summer growing seasons and a famine prevailed worldwide. This anomaly was blamed on massive volcanic ash discharge to the atmosphere which blocked the sun from warming the earth.
I had first hand information on this as I had a quasi working relationship with Harold interrupted by his untimely death in a helicopter crash over in the west Chilcotin.

[Spy]

Super interesting thanks for sharing I love the history...

[Walking Buffalo]

Surely someone has compiled historical BC moose distribution and density records for the last 150 years.
Yes, no?
If not, it is critical that this work is done with urgency.



I have always found it interesting to hear reports that moose were not present in large areas of BC in the recent past.
This doesn't make sense as most of BC is decent moose habitat, and begs the question, WHY?

It seems to me that current concerns of moose declines would benefit by knowing historical distribution and an understanding of causes that extirpated moose from much of BC


Regarding allocations, this historical information would compose the foundation for an intervenor to support keeping moose accessible to ALL people.

[338win mag]

Reading 338Mag’s post where he references moose in BC 200 years prior would most likely be incorrect.
what is known is that elk were in the area of the Cariboo/Chilcotin.
Harold Mitchell, head regional biologist for Region 5 back when, was taken to an area by Chilco Choate were there was a large presence of antler he believed was from elk. It was ancient but not fossilized. Mitchell collected samples for testing where it was established that they were elk and carbon dated to the early 1800s. Mitchell speculated there was a mass die off due to severe winter weather conditions around 1813 when it was recorded that the world had 2 years without summer growing seasons and a famine prevailed worldwide. This anomaly was blamed on massive volcanic ash discharge to the atmosphere which blocked the sun from warming the earth.
I had first hand information on this as I had a quasi working relationship with Harold interrupted by his untimely death in a helicopter crash over in the west Chilcotin.
https://www.amazon.ca/Fur-Hunters-Far-West/dp/0806133929
I know its in this book, I have read it but for some reason its not allowing me to go to page 194 and read it once more. If you look in the table of contents you will see 2 references to moose.
Alexander Ross is credible, as he built ft Okanagan and this book has alot of info from ft kamloops where Ross was employed by the northwest company to explore the upper adams/north thompson etc. He also led 2 snake river expeditions, maybe 3, I cant remember but I have all the journals here, pretty sure he knew what a moose was.

There were Buffalo running around here too, how do I know? because I found the bones during an excavation and had them looked at by an archeologist and an anthropologist simultaneously. Thats also recorded in journals somewhere, which I probably have here.

I have also read Eric Collier's book, and I know someone who knew him personally, ya, I will leave it at that.
To say there were no Moose is abit of a stretch dont you?

[338win mag]

Surely someone has compiled historical BC moose distribution and density records for the last 150 years.
Yes, no?
If not, it is critical that this work is done with urgency.



I have always found it interesting to hear reports that moose were not present in large areas of BC in the recent past.
This doesn't make sense as most of BC is decent moose habitat, and begs the question, WHY?

It seems to me that current concerns of moose declines would benefit by knowing historical distribution and an understanding of causes that extirpated moose from much of BC


Regarding allocations, this historical information would compose the foundation for an intervenor to support keeping moose accessible to ALL people.
The same could be said for Whitetail deer around here too, but you know what? All the FN have to do is get on the stand and say whatever they want and it will be believed because its Oral history, even if its bullshit.
What historical information?

[srupp]

Hmmm again. .no references to moose in ceremonial or sustenance use..no archaeological history..no totem poles..ravens but not moose.
no historical native or non native telling of moose in 1800, s
Only thing being discussed is current value..not historical signigicance.
Srupp

[puddlejumper]

Well you see Steve, the chilcotin/cariboo used to be overrun by elk which sustained the food requirements of the First Nations along with deer, sheep and salmon and resident fish species, the settlers deemed these elk as a detriment to their ranching business and so they wiped them out. Moose migrated in with logging etc. and supplemented the loss of elk meat, hence the current value. Similarly the early pioneers of the region, also only started hunting moose around the same time that they migrated in from the east and north. First Nations have priority and you are a privileged hunter so suck it up and quite trying to create chaos. This is the 21st century, get with the program.


Hmmm again. .no references to moose in ceremonial or sustenance use..no archaeological history..no totem poles..ravens but not moose.
no historical native or non native telling of moose in 1800, s
Only thing being discussed is current value..not historical signigicance.
Srupp

[white moose]

Puddle Jumper, maybe you could explain the program we are supposed to get with?? Maybe you should get with the program that i see. As a privileged hunter I believe in harvest and conservation. Seen a many pitlamp and waste by the people who are supposed to have priority.
Srupp not trying to create chaos, its called reality

[Jagermeister]

Surely someone has compiled historical BC moose distribution and density records for the last 150 years.
Yes, no?
If not, it is critical that this work is done with urgency.



I have always found it interesting to hear reports that moose were not present in large areas of BC in the recent past.
This doesn't make sense as most of BC is decent moose habitat, and begs the question, WHY?

It seems to me that current concerns of moose declines would benefit by knowing historical distribution and an understanding of causes that extirpated moose from much of BC


Regarding allocations, this historical information would compose the foundation for an intervenor to support keeping moose accessible to ALL people.

Dr Ian McTaggert Cowan compiled a ungulate list for BC but as far as I know, no population densities.

Dr James Hatter wrote his doctoral thesis on moose in the Cariboo (1948-9) and there may have been some reference to population inventory. What I remember of Hatter's thesis is that he made the assumption that moose were going into a decline because of the moose population explosion of the post arrival years. He bet his guide (big game type like bearvalley) that the guide could not show Hatter one red willow (osier dogwood) that has not been browsed. They traveled the entire region form the south Cariboo to Prince George and there was not one osier that had not been browsed.

[wildcatter]

Well you see Steve, the chilcotin/cariboo used to be overrun by elk which sustained the food requirements of the First Nations along with deer, sheep and salmon and resident fish species, the settlers deemed these elk as a detriment to their ranching business and so they wiped them out. Moose migrated in with logging etc. and supplemented the loss of elk meat, hence the current value. Similarly the early pioneers of the region, also only started hunting moose around the same time that they migrated in from the east and north. First Nations have priority and you are a privileged hunter so suck it up and quite trying to create chaos. This is the 21st century, get with the program.

You are in the minority and you know what's gonna happen when push comes to shove.

[Arctic Lake]

Valerius Geist should know the answer to all things moose !
Arctic Lake

[srupp]

You are in the minority and you know what's gonna happen when push comes to shove.

hmmm I took this as tongue in cheek. .and certainly hope he was in jest.puddle jumpers comments
he is not the first to take a run at my views..lol
Hmmmm
Steven

[Jagermeister]

Back in 2012 we had this thread;
http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/showthread.php?84639-Larry-Pynn-on-BC-s-Moose-Problems

One thing is for certain with HuntingBC. Circle the Wagons.

[REMINGTON JIM]

chilly hillbilly : Quote

Re: Larry Pynn on BC's Moose Problems
270boy, I think you need to go back to school. natural cycle my a$$!! You are forgetting that people are part of the equation. Access is the biggest contributer to this problem. FN harvest due to to much access and their targeting of cows is a big problem. With moose declining the wolves are targeting cattle more and more which is hitting the ranchers in the pocket book big time. As long as there are other food sources the wolves population will not decrease like you think. The protection of the so called wild horses by the FN's is also a major problem especially south of highway 20 where the horse herds have grown to the thousands. How much habitat is being taken from these farrel horses?


Good POST 2012 ! RJ

[wildcatter]

chilly hillbilly : Quote

Re: Larry Pynn on BC's Moose Problems


270boy, I think you need to go back to school. natural cycle my a$$!! You are forgetting that people are part of the equation. Access is the biggest contributer to this problem. FN harvest due to to much access and their targeting of cows is a big problem. With moose declining the wolves are targeting cattle more and more which is hitting the ranchers in the pocket book big time. As long as there are other food sources the wolves population will not decrease like you think. The protection of the so called wild horses by the FN's is also a major problem especially south of highway 20 where the horse herds have grown to the thousands. How much habitat is being taken from these farrel horses?


Good POST 2012 ! RJ

I agree Jim good post, by the way it's "feral" ;-) OJ

[Arctic Lake]

Back in 2012 we had this thread;
http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/showthread.php?84639-Larry-Pynn-on-BC-s-Moose-Problems

One thing is for certain with HuntingBC. Circle the Wagons.
In that post from 2012 there was a comment from HBC member Boner he mentioned airial spraying . I have seen those cuts that have been replanted and I believe sprayed to keep willow and such from growing Its like a bloody Christmas tree farm . Those trees are packed in there ! No game trails no animals .
Arctic Lake

[Jagermeister]

In that post from 2012 there was a comment from HBC member Boner he mentioned airial spraying . I have seen those cuts that have been replanted and I believe sprayed to keep willow and such from growing Its like a bloody Christmas tree farm . Those trees are packed in there ! No game trails no animals .
Arctic LakeI don't believe in spraying for a couple of reasons; 1. the use of chemicals will eventually be likened to the use of DDT: 2, the birches and aspens make the lodgepole pine grow to get above the canopy to make better logs. That dense Christmas tree farm will be short with lots of branches not even suitable to make pellets. Just a rabbit haven.

[REMINGTON JIM]

I don't believe in spraying for a couple of reasons; 1. the use of chemicals will eventually be likened to the use of DDT: 2, the birches and aspens make the lodgepole pine grow to get above the canopy to make better logs. That dense Christmas tree farm will be short with lots of branches not even suitable to make pellets. Just a rabbit haven.

And the LYNX will Flourish there ! :) RJ

[338win mag]

I believe that.....FN in this province, in this case the Chilcotin, intentionally hunted the Moose (cows) until the numbers were low enough that resident hunters and (others) had their opportunities taken away...and that was their goal. It may have achieved a goal set out by others (environmentalists) as they clearly supported the diminished opportunity for the hunting community.
That along with the timing of the influx and explosion of Wolves is interesting too.

I dont know what is so hard to understand by some....you can wipe out an entire species in a short amount of time by simply repeatedly killing the females of any species, ie.. Buffalo.

[Boner]

In that post from 2012 there was a comment from HBC member Boner he mentioned airial spraying . I have seen those cuts that have been replanted and I believe sprayed to keep willow and such from growing Its like a bloody Christmas tree farm . Those trees are packed in there ! No game trails no animals .
Arctic Lake

Seven years later, I still stand by those two posts in that thread.

[puddlejumper]

I was referring to a program that attempts to understand the real issue and not point fingers at the perceived issue. These threads just manifest hate and offer no solutions. I guess I sorta added to it with my comment re. priority vs. privilege, but that was out of frustration for the stupid unfounded analysis by srupp. If you look at any "totems" you will see that not much is recorded in the way of animals that sustained the FN populations. There are wolves/bears/ravens etc but no you will not see a rabbit or a deer or moose etc. so the analysis by srupp is bs. The other comment re. pit lamping, I too have seen the same activities and I don't agree with them, unless it was a traditional practice, where in some areas of the province using a light to hunt and fish was a traditional practice. At the same time I have witnessed non-native hunters, pit lamping and poaching, taking only the backstrap and tenderloin and leaving the remainder to rot, so how can you point fingers at First Nations and ignore the rest of the problem?

There are some level headed responses in this thread that attempt to look at the real issue, then someone again points fingers.


Puddle Jumper, maybe you could explain the program we are supposed to get with?? Maybe you should get with the program that i see. As a privileged hunter I believe in harvest and conservation. Seen a many pitlamp and waste by the people who are supposed to have priority.
Srupp not trying to create chaos, its called reality

[rolllingbreakdown]

Hey new member here, this is my first post, but I'm gonna throw in my two cents for whatever it is worth. Puddle jumper is right in that legally the FN hunt is considered to be right whereas ours is considered a privilege. However in Canada the courts have also determined that no right is considered to be absolute and are often subject to what they decide to be reasonable limits. There may be ways to make the FN harvest more sustainable, but in order to do that and we need accurate numbers on moose being taken by FN communities. We have a pretty good idea of how many moose get taken by non indigenous hunters and we have assess to other data such as highway kills, calf mortality and depredation. But the value of this is greatly diminished when all the data we have on FN harvest is anecdotal at best. I think that the program that we need o get with is the reality that in 2019 we cannot afford to have an unregulated nor especially an unmonitered hunt.

As much as I would love to go my way or the highway when it comes to a great deal of FN issues there will never be the political will, even if there may be legal ground to stand on to pursue the to muscle through changes that we as non FN hunters would like to see. Especially given where electoral power is concentrated in the province and in the country. I think that as hunters we need to get more organized and engaged on these issues (I know there has been a significant amount of discussion lately on whether the BCWF is the best group to do so with, that's beside what I'm saying) but we'll have to go to the table on some issues with groups that we haven't always seen eye to eye with. If we make this our hill to die on I think surely we will die on it and our voices will be treated as less relevant then the already are to these debates. I think that most people on both sides want there to be enough moose that were not fighting over pieces of a shrinking pie, we have to figure out how to get there. If we ago to the able we may be able to get a more sizable number of FN communities to keep accurate records of moose harvest and that at least would be a start to figuring out what the problem and the numbers could be used to help manage populations by more then just guessing.

Its also worth adding hat even if a chief and band council are onside with limiting their own harvest of moose there is little that they can do under the indian act to enforce this on their own people and little that the co's can, believe they can or are permitted to do to charge and prosecute FN who hunt moose outside of their own territories or against wishes of their band. Essentially all a band can do is to ask nicely that their members don't poach. A law without enforcement is hardly a law. This also makes this a federal issue and even harder to resolve

[srupp]

I was referring to a program that attempts to understand the real issue and not point fingers at the perceived issue. These threads just manifest hate and offer no solutions. I guess I sorta added to it with my comment re. priority vs. privilege, but that was out of frustration for the stupid unfounded analysis by srupp. If you look at any "totems" you will see that not much is recorded in the way of animals that sustained the FN populations. There are wolves/bears/ravens etc but no you will not see a rabbit or a deer or moose etc. so the analysis by srupp is bs. The other comment re. pit lamping, I too have seen the same activities and I don't agree with them, unless it was a traditional practice, where in some areas of the province using a light to hunt and fish was a traditional practice. At the same time I have witnessed non-native hunters, pit lamping and poaching, taking only the backstrap and tenderloin and leaving the remainder to rot, so how can you point fingers at First Nations and ignore the rest of the problem?

There are some level headed responses in this thread that attempt to look at the real issue, then someone again points fingers.
Hmm..get with what....another indian program to get more. .get it all ?
I owe you nothing at all..I dont even have sympathy for your lack of self respect..always demanding..begging..pathetic.no wonder your youth have given up..no self respect.
I pay my own bills..why should I pay yours.
I stand by my stance..local indians are demanding 100% of the moose that were not historically resident here.
There is no record of indian ceremonial, sustenance use..no significant written, no oral history, no totem depictions...
Hmmmm hold it..puddlejumper..isnt that a bingo game breaking out..ya gotta go man..no need to come back..
Mr.Rupp..to you

[puddlejumper]

I rest my case!


Hmm..get with what....another indian program to get more. .get it all ?
I owe you nothing at all..I dont even have sympathy for your lack of self respect..always demanding..begging..pathetic.no wonder your youth have given up..no self respect.
I pay my own bills..why should I pay yours.
I stand by my stance..local indians are demanding 100% of the moose that were not historically resident here.
There is no record of indian ceremonial, sustenance use..no significant written, no oral history, no totem depictions...
Hmmmm hold it..puddlejumper..isnt that a bingo game breaking out..ya gotta go man..no need to come back..
Mr.Rupp..to you

[REMINGTON JIM]

I rest my case!


You NEVER had a CASE ? :???: UNLESS ?? :roll: are you a FN person ? RJ

[JAGRMEISTER]

I believe the first report of moose in the Chilcotin was 1905.
Invasion of moose, west of the Divide was enabled by railway right of ways and logging for ties and lumber, creating suitable moose habitat and a corridor for access.

[tigrr]

Moose for sale in Agassiz for $5.00 a pound. I guess it was extra they didn't need.
Learned something the other day. Our tax dollars pay for the fn to get it skinned, butchered, cut and wrapped. Nice of us.

[Arctic Lake]

Moose for sale in Agassiz for $5.00 a pound. I guess it was extra they didn't need.
Learned something the other day. Our tax dollars pay for the fn to get it skinned, butchered, cut and wrapped. Nice of us.

Tigrr Are you being serious ?
Arctic Lake

[Foxton Gundogs]

Srupp, find a copy of Eric Collier’s book, Three Against the Wilderness. It chronicles his life and that of his wife and son at Meldrum Creek. In it he relates a story of the first known moose shot in the area in 1918 by two Indians. As the story goes they had no idea what they had killed having never seen one before. They had no known name for what they had shot. .

Exactly J
ager. My Gramps cowboyed the Alexis Cr. Hanceville area during WWI and for a few years thereafter. He was involved in the first moose kill in memory in that area in either 1919 or 1920, It was shot by a white cowboy/trapper the Indians have no hereditary claim to moose in the Chilcotin plain and simple.

[moosecaller]

Good job Srupp, I have known this for years but no one believed it.

[edgar11]

Hey new member here, this is my first post, but I'm gonna throw in my two cents for whatever it is worth. Puddle jumper is right in that legally the FN hunt is considered to be right whereas ours is considered a privilege. However in Canada the courts have also determined that no right is considered to be absolute and are often subject to what they decide to be reasonable limits. There may be ways to make the FN harvest more sustainable, but in order to do that and we need accurate numbers on moose being taken by FN communities. We have a pretty good idea of how many moose get taken by non indigenous hunters and we have assess to other data such as highway kills, calf mortality and depredation. But the value of this is greatly diminished when all the data we have on FN harvest is anecdotal at best. I think that the program that we need o get with is the reality that in 2019 we cannot afford to have an unregulated nor especially an unmonitered hunt.

As much as I would love to go my way or the highway when it comes to a great deal of FN issues there will never be the political will, even if there may be legal ground to stand on to pursue the to muscle through changes that we as non FN hunters would like to see. Especially given where electoral power is concentrated in the province and in the country. I think that as hunters we need to get more organized and engaged on these issues (I know there has been a significant amount of discussion lately on whether the BCWF is the best group to do so with, that's beside what I'm saying) but we'll have to go to the table on some issues with groups that we haven't always seen eye to eye with. If we make this our hill to die on I think surely we will die on it and our voices will be treated as less relevant then the already are to these debates. I think that most people on both sides want there to be enough moose that were not fighting over pieces of a shrinking pie, we have to figure out how to get there. If we ago to the able we may be able to get a more sizable number of FN communities to keep accurate records of moose harvest and that at least would be a start to figuring out what the problem and the numbers could be used to help manage populations by more then just guessing.

Its also worth adding hat even if a chief and band council are onside with limiting their own harvest of moose there is little that they can do under the indian act to enforce this on their own people and little that the co's can, believe they can or are permitted to do to charge and prosecute FN who hunt moose outside of their own territories or against wishes of their band. Essentially all a band can do is to ask nicely that their members don't poach. A law without enforcement is hardly a law. This also makes this a federal issue and even harder to resolve


Welcome RollingBreakdown, I am sorry to say but rationale and things that make sense around here are not the norm. Blatant racism and ignorance are very blind to anything that "makes sense" or comes to any kind of solution. I have tried to educate but people like srupp apparently know what "oral history" is all about in this province because he sits in circles where these matters are discussed, I guess. He also seems to think I have taken money out of his pocket somehow and I am robbing him blind too but that's another story. There is much progress going on it's just that some people are too blind to see what's really going on and they are relying on information that is about 50 years old. Cheers :D

[edgar11]

Moose for sale in Agassiz for $5.00 a pound. I guess it was extra they didn't need.
Learned something the other day. Our tax dollars pay for the fn to get it skinned, butchered, cut and wrapped. Nice of us.

Wow never heard of that great deal tiggr, can you provide more info so I can take advantage of this? :razz: I pay taxes too so I should also get it delivered.

[srupp]

racism...serious....how about equality..how about working for BC or Canada..not hands out drums beating...fed up with the BS ..
you can provide the moose totem poles? or oral history of moose harvests..or archeology...nope bACK to racist acusations.

reconciliation...or compensation....get stuffed..
Mr Rupp

[ACE]

Consensus is that moose followed the burns/logging/etc. south to their present range.
There is a huntable moose population in Utah. Did these moose cross open range to get there ?
My wife and I saw moose in the upper Salt Lake Basin east of Logan, Utah. Shiras moose.

If you can find the excellent book 'Deer of the World' . . . . their evolution, behavior, and ecology . . . Valerius Geist.
We saw those moose close-up on a motorcycle trip. The cow lunged up onto the road, followed seconds later by her calf. We went between them.
An older cow tends to drop twins for a few years. This is a very valuable animal if you are trying to rebuild a population.

[srupp]

Hmmm my point is resident hunters, guides etc are being screwed by native bullshit demands spineless politicians. ..all at the expense of the taxpayers.
Moose are being saved for indians as some sacred substainer of life..mythical importance..and they were not even here till..1905 ..or so.
When the facts can not be argued..then break out the chants of racism.
Srupp

[twoSevenO]

I'm not clear ... why were there no moose prior to 1900?? Where did they arrive from and do we know why they migrated into the area?

Very interesting. Something I never thought about. I always assumed they've been here a long time.

[IPA]

There is no totems or oral stories of moose in native culture that’s is documented.
There is also no evidence of use of moose parts found in any discovered midden piles or settlements.
You can’t tell me that they would not have used the antlers and hide from a moose the same as they used the parts off deer and elk?
I can’t see how they can justify there claims on moose as a traditional food source.

[180grainer]

I was referring to a program that attempts to understand the real issue and not point fingers at the perceived issue. These threads just manifest hate and offer no solutions.
Here's a solution or at least a step in the right direction. All FN must account for what they harvest so that proper game management can take that into account when deciding quotas for the following year. There's a constructive suggestion. Simply report what is being taken. What say you?

[180grainer]

I was referring to a program that attempts to understand the real issue and not point fingers at the perceived issue. These threads just manifest hate and offer no solutions.

Here's another constructive suggestion. Perhaps do away with the "Priority vs Privileged" nonsense that's developed. The people who are given a priority have no vested interest to ensure hunt-able numbers for all. In fact, and as alluded too, they may actually sabotage the ability for others to hunt guaranteeing their own access. In fact, by using this type of binary thinking in which people are appointed and assigned to "teams", simply based on their race, you can be assured that racism will manifest out of that from both sides and sets them up to compete instead of cooperate. What say you?

[RyoTHC]

You NEVER had a CASE ? :???: UNLESS ?? :roll: are you a FN person ? RJ

That or a socialist.

[180grainer]

Exactly J
ager. My Gramps cowboyed the Alexis Cr. Hanceville area during WWI and for a few years thereafter. He was involved in the first moose kill in memory in that area in either 1919 or 1920, It was shot by a white cowboy/trapper the Indians have no hereditary claim to moose in the Chilcotin plain and simple.
If the FN want hereditary claim to anything they should go back over the Bering Land Bridge and talk to their relatives in Mongolia.

[robert05]

Srupp you are right on. In 60's I used to visit Chezecut and the ranchers in the area and they said the same thing, no moose until the '20s. Natives in the Chilcotin did not and do not have a name in their language for moose.
it is not being racist to ask for native harvest numbers, anything but. There will Be no proper moose management
until this happens.

puddlejumber get your head out of the sand, there is tons of evidence.

[180grainer]

Puddlejumper seems to have gone dark.

[358mag]

Puddlejumper seems to have gone dark.
Sometimes the truth hurts .

[Ohwildwon]

Lots of evidence on the Moose Population Migration into the Chilcotin 100+ - years ago

Would be cool if someone did a thesis!

Know of any University bound, biologist (to be) hunter, looking for a goal?

Love how scientists and the type love to throw out the, "Anecdotal" when their narrative, starts going sideways :razz:

The dark side is that people get fed up with all the inequality, regs, becoming beyond ridiculous.

Gaurantee people will just start poaching more and more, with there own moral justification

[puddlejumper]

Not dark...just too busy hunting and hanging my moose that will feed a family of 5! Anyways, just for the record I don't disagree that moose moved in to areas of the province 100 years ago, give or take a few years. But what I do disagree on is the pointing of fingers on indigenous peoples. There are a number of reasons for the decline of moose populations and one of them may be the changing conditions, just as moose moved in, perhaps they are moving out and areas where they were abundant and the forage doesn't support those numbers anymore they are being over harvested by all users. For the record, 1200 moose where reported harvested last year between the Skeena to the Chilcotin regions last year.

I also agree that everyone should report their harvest so that we can get a handle on what is actually being harvested vs. what is available. If the hunt is not sustainable then reduce the number of tags available. In one area, 10 or so years ago there were 900 moose enumerated during a census. 5 years later there where 60 and the same number of tags were available for that area as when there were 900. I know of 2 non-native persons, as lucky as they are that have harvested 2 moose each year in the same area for the past 5 years, this is one family of 2.

Further, as mentioned the earlier argument re. the epitomizing moose or other animals of sustenance on "totems" rarely occurs. That interpretation provided by SRUPP is complete BS. With regards to the statement on First Nations going back to Mongolia to talk to their relatives, wouldn't that equate to the settlers going back to Europe and exercising the privilege that was afforded to them by the aristocrats if they were lucky enough to actually hunt? Actually, if you think about it First Nations have been harvesting here for 1000's of years regardless of the species and europeans have been harvesting here for what maybe 200 years and with the increasing hunting population the situation has gotten to the point where the blame is being placed on the First Nations?

But the overall point of this thread is that moose management should be applied equally to all users, native and non-native alike, to which I agree, so use the provincial estimate of what First Nations harvest per year and then apply the same number to the amount of GOS and LEH permits available.

[srupp]

Hmmm no evidence of moose here, no histerical..err historical depictions of such a important animal so absolutely vital to local indians..no totem depictipns..no stories handed down..no archeological finds..yet indians are demanding first sevond final dibs on all moose..the only bullshit is the demands for more..oink oink..all moose for 3% of population so used to getting their hind ends kissed..
In the process losing all their dignity..demands are only begging in a loud tone..thats the true BS
Mr Rupp

[puddlejumper]

Hmmm no evidence of moose here, no histerical..err historical depictions of such a important animal so absolutely vital to local indians..no totem depictipns..no stories handed down..no archeological finds..yet indians are demanding first sevond final dibs on all moose..the only bullshit is the demands for more..oink oink..all moose for 3% of population so used to getting their hind ends kissed..
In the process losing all their dignity..demands are only begging in a loud tone..thats the true BS
Mr Rupp

Must have been tipping a few early this am SRUPP. You seemed to have lost your dignity and ability to be coherent!

[180grainer]

Not dark...just too busy hunting and hanging my moose that will feed a family of 5! Anyways, just for the record I don't disagree that moose moved in to areas of the province 100 years ago, give or take a few years. But what I do disagree on is the pointing of fingers on indigenous peoples. There are a number of reasons for the decline of moose populations and one of them may be the changing conditions, just as moose moved in, perhaps they are moving out and areas where they were abundant and the forage doesn't support those numbers anymore they are being over harvested by all users. For the record, 1200 moose where reported harvested last year between the Skeena to the Chilcotin regions last year.

I also agree that everyone should report their harvest so that we can get a handle on what is actually being harvested vs. what is available. If the hunt is not sustainable then reduce the number of tags available. In one area, 10 or so years ago there were 900 moose enumerated during a census. 5 years later there where 60 and the same number of tags were available for that area as when there were 900. I know of 2 non-native persons, as lucky as they are that have harvested 2 moose each year in the same area for the past 5 years, this is one family of 2.

Further, as mentioned the earlier argument re. the epitomizing moose or other animals of sustenance on "totems" rarely occurs. That interpretation provided by SRUPP is complete BS. With regards to the statement on First Nations going back to Mongolia to talk to their relatives, wouldn't that equate to the settlers going back to Europe and exercising the privilege that was afforded to them by the aristocrats if they were lucky enough to actually hunt? Actually, if you think about it First Nations have been harvesting here for 1000's of years regardless of the species and europeans have been harvesting here for what maybe 200 years and with the increasing hunting population the situation has gotten to the point where the blame is being placed on the First Nations?

But the overall point of this thread is that moose management should be applied equally to all users, native and non-native alike, to which I agree, so use the provincial estimate of what First Nations harvest per year and then apply the same number to the amount of GOS and LEH permits available.
I appreciate your reply PJ. Are you able to answer my questions to you directly. Like "what's wrong with FN reporting their harvest"? It would help all of us.

[HarryToolips]

Not dark...just too busy hunting and hanging my moose that will feed a family of 5! Anyways, just for the record I don't disagree that moose moved in to areas of the province 100 years ago, give or take a few years. But what I do disagree on is the pointing of fingers on indigenous peoples. There are a number of reasons for the decline of moose populations and one of them may be the changing conditions, just as moose moved in, perhaps they are moving out and areas where they were abundant and the forage doesn't support those numbers anymore they are being over harvested by all users. For the record, 1200 moose where reported harvested last year between the Skeena to the Chilcotin regions last year.

I also agree that everyone should report their harvest so that we can get a handle on what is actually being harvested vs. what is available. If the hunt is not sustainable then reduce the number of tags available. In one area, 10 or so years ago there were 900 moose enumerated during a census. 5 years later there where 60 and the same number of tags were available for that area as when there were 900. I know of 2 non-native persons, as lucky as they are that have harvested 2 moose each year in the same area for the past 5 years, this is one family of 2.

Further, as mentioned the earlier argument re. the epitomizing moose or other animals of sustenance on "totems" rarely occurs. That interpretation provided by SRUPP is complete BS. With regards to the statement on First Nations going back to Mongolia to talk to their relatives, wouldn't that equate to the settlers going back to Europe and exercising the privilege that was afforded to them by the aristocrats if they were lucky enough to actually hunt? Actually, if you think about it First Nations have been harvesting here for 1000's of years regardless of the species and europeans have been harvesting here for what maybe 200 years and with the increasing hunting population the situation has gotten to the point where the blame is being placed on the First Nations?

But the overall point of this thread is that moose management should be applied equally to all users, native and non-native alike, to which I agree, so use the provincial estimate of what First Nations harvest per year and then apply the same number to the amount of GOS and LEH permits available.
The finger pointing on FNs is because some, definitely not all, but some over harvest the resource because "it's their right" and will hammer cows & calves on an already declining population..here in reg 8 where I reside the moose pops are apparently steady, but there are a few FNs that abuse "their right"..

[bearvalley]

Harvest rights are abused by all.
Yesterday I was told of 8 moose taken by one party.
The group had 2 LEH tags and were caught while trying to move 2 moose out of the area with the intentions of coming back for 2 more until they were all moved out to where the 8 moose were legal.
The clowns are being charged.
Srupp....you don’t get far enough from your couch or pickup seat to really know what’s going on out there.

[guest]

I appreciate your reply PJ. Are you able to answer my questions to you directly. Like "what's wrong with FN reporting their harvest"? It would help all of us.

Great Point 180.......

I have presented recommendations to Gov and those involved with setting regulation that we must have MANDATORY REPORTING by all user groups including FNs and been tuned down time and time again.
Nope, wont happen, FNs have gov in their back pocket, they seem to think they are above the law, answer to nobody, want to set their own rules ....... its BS is what it is.
1 law for all. ACCOUNTABILITY by all.

Without Accountability, we will never have Sustainability.

IMO, its many FNs goals that all Fish and Wildlife are all theirs, and no one other than them should be allowed to harvest. Complete BS !

Many sure like to pick n choose the things they like that whitey has brought to this country, but still many like to point the finger, look what whitey has destroyed. Hypocrites.

No matter who you are, Stand up and be Accountable. The future is in your hands.

BV.......if your statement on 1 group harvesting 8 moose with only 2 legally available is indeed true, this should be dealt with to the Max penalties possible. Charge these pricks, confiscate all gear and equipment, trucks campers, boats, rifles you name it, auction off and the proceeds back to wildlife. Lifetime bans on hunting in BC should be another hurt put on these types...... this should hit national news and make examples of these ass shats. IMO

[bearvalley]

Here’s something to consider....when ALL become accountable for numbers SOME are not going to like the end result.
Harvest opportunities will be slashed....and not the FN share.
Something for you boys to think about.

[guest]

Here’s something to consider....when ALL become accountable for numbers SOME are not going to like the end result.
Harvest opportunities will be slashed....and not the FN share.
Something for you boys to think about.

So be it then. This isnt about take all you can get now, because nothing will be left soon. It should be about sustainability, the future, for years to come. To those holding back numbers and honesty.....With out real numbers, accurate numbers, our bios and managers will continue to manage the way they have for too long. Look where that has us.
Again, accountability by EVERYONE, by all, every user group, or zero sustainability is in the future, were slowly getting there with the system we have had and continue to have.
So with the attitude, have at er well you can, its not going to last, our hunting future of our traditions and heritage will be gone.

[bearvalley]

So be it then. This isnt about take all you can get now, because nothing will be left soon. It should be about sustainability, the future, for years to come. To those holding back numbers and honesty.....With out real numbers, accurate numbers, our bios and managers will continue to manage the way they have for too long. Look where that has us.
Again, accountability by EVERYONE, by all, every user group, or zero sustainability is in the future, were slowly getting there with the system we have had and continue to have.
So with the attitude, have at er well you can, its not going to last, our hunting future of our traditions and heritage will be gone.
Don’t blow a gasket curly top....some of us are actually working for future improvements.
Mouthing off on here doesn’t get a damn thing done.

[guest]

BValley. No blowing a gasket here. Just stating facts with nothing to hide like many.
Your still a piece of work eh.....lol. Im guessing you would hate to show those real numbers too eh. Your a beauty.
No need to waste any time with you. Done.

[f350ps]

Don’t blow a gasket curly top....some of us are actually working for future improvements.
Mouthing off on here doesn’t get a damn thing done.
Get off your high horse BV, to suggest Curly is just mouthing off here is laughable!! He's extremely passionate about wildlife and only wants what's best for future hunters and unlike many here he makes our voices heard at all levels! K

[praire dog]

I agree wholeheartedly with RJ....and another thing, regarding pitlamping, besides being obviously unsportsmanlike, dangerous and inherently stupid, how can any FN as ”stewards of the environment “, condone such abhorrent practices. Perhaps the FNs did use maybe a torch or possibly a candle, how on earth do they make the leap to million-plus candlepower lights to blind and slaughter the critters? Just because it MAY have been done historically doesn’t make it right. Our politicians have allowed this to happen because they are too scared to speak up.Politically correctness wins again.
At the very least, all FNs should be forced to abide by all safety and sportsmanship rules
I fear it’s too late for non FN hunters , our only hope may be in organizing and lobbying....

[bearvalley]

BValley. No blowing a gasket here. Just stating facts with nothing to hide like many.
Your still a piece of work eh.....lol. Im guessing you would hate to show those real numbers too eh. Your a beauty.
No need to waste any time with you. Done.

curly top....I don’t tend to take second and third hand gossip as a fact.
I’m sure you’re completely up to date on all provincial wildlife issues and know for a fact FNs are taking more than their share.
I will bet you that if FNs give a number as to what their true harvest is that all harvest opportunities from the non FN hunters take a cut.
You might not like what you ask for.
Be nice to see your facts that you’re stating posted up.....otherwise it’s just more BS being peddled.



Get off your high horse BV, to suggest Curly is just mouthing off here is laughable!! He's extremely passionate about wildlife and only wants what's best for future hunters and unlike many here he makes our voices heard at all levels! K

f350ps.....no high horse here.
I have no doubt that curly is passionate about wildlife and hunting.
He’s not alone.
His time would be better spent ensuring we have abundant wildlife for all instead of bitching about someone being able to do something he can’t.
Kind of like scrapping over the cookie jar.

[gcreek]

So be it then. This isnt about take all you can get now, because nothing will be left soon. It should be about sustainability, the future, for years to come. To those holding back numbers and honesty.....With out real numbers, accurate numbers, our bios and managers will continue to manage the way they have for too long. Look where that has us.
Again, accountability by EVERYONE, by all, every user group, or zero sustainability is in the future, were slowly getting there with the system we have had and continue to have.
So with the attitude, have at er well you can, its not going to last, our hunting future of our traditions and heritage will be gone.

That mentality of taking them now and peeing on future generations knows no race.

A fellow who has hunted this area for years was very miffed this year as restrictions have been put on all but 5 sideroads for no vehicles. Granted, he and his partner are in their 70's but are financially well off and don't ned the meat to survive. I offered for them to hunt our property as I can't see the government having any restrictions on private land to drive to spot x and hike or call from there. A couple days later they asked if they could bring their quads ( illegal in 5-12) and an Indian to call for them. I told them to bring their quads and if they were caught I would say they were trespassing and that I had spent 10 years educating the local Indians that our land is off limits and there was no way he was going to bring one back.
They were quite miffed with my answer and my offer won't be repeated.

They aren't the only ones I have seen bend the rules or blatently break them. The Indians aren't the only ones with the entitlement mentality. Have met just as many more who respect the rules and the wildlife as should be.

[puddlejumper]

I appreciate your reply PJ. Are you able to answer my questions to you directly. Like "what's wrong with FN reporting their harvest"? It would help all of us.

There is nothing wrong with FN reporting their harvest and in recent years some nations have taken it upon themselves to census their members on their annual harvest, these numbers are shared with the Province who can then put real numbers to what is harvested rather than the province underestimating that harvest, which was historically the case.

Another FN has taken it one step further and enacted regulations and allocation to their members as well as mandatory reporting while respecting their individual indigenous rights, promoting that those rights do not come without responsibility.

I also wanted to mention that the signage we see in different areas that illustrates the impacts of shooting one cow in comparison to shooting a bull are huge as far as education for sustainability goes. Many living in poor economic conditions, that rely on hunting and fishing to survive and may be somewhat illiterate or not educated can understand what is being depicted on those signs.

Finally, in the case of the Tsihlqot'in who signed an accord with the Province for co-management of moose in which it is stated that one of the results of the accord will be a co-developed and co-hosted moose roundtable workshop with the goal of bringing representatives of neighboring Indigenous nations and stakeholders who wish to constructively engage in finding solutions to the moose decline in the region. Now if this isn't an invite to participate or even meet with TNG to discuss paths forward then I don't know what is.

Probably more than you were asking for but hope it helps somewhat.

[gcreek]

There is nothing wrong with FN reporting their harvest and in recent years some nations have taken it upon themselves to census their members on their annual harvest, these numbers are shared with the Province who can then put real numbers to what is harvested rather than the province underestimating that harvest, which was historically the case.

Another FN has taken it one step further and enacted regulations and allocation to their members as well as mandatory reporting while respecting their individual indigenous rights, promoting that those rights do not come without responsibility.

I also wanted to mention that the signage we see in different areas that illustrates the impacts of shooting one cow in comparison to shooting a bull are huge as far as education for sustainability goes. Many living in poor economic conditions, that rely on hunting and fishing to survive and may be somewhat illiterate or not educated can understand what is being depicted on those signs.

Finally, in the case of the Tsihlqot'in who signed an accord with the Province for co-management of moose in which it is stated that one of the results of the accord will be a co-developed and co-hosted moose roundtable workshop with the goal of bringing representatives of neighboring Indigenous nations and stakeholders who wish to constructively engage in finding solutions to the moose decline in the region. Now if this isn't an invite to participate or even meet with TNG to discuss paths forward then I don't know what is.

Probably more than you were asking for but hope it helps somewhat.


I was personally invited to the first meeting you mention by my friend Joe Alphonse. I thought it was really going to be a good thing with neighbors working together towards a common goal until a lawyer stood up at the end and began a dialog that put a wedge deeper between natives and non natives. I won't support that mentality, we are all Canadians.

[Cedar Cowgirl]

1 land, 1 people, 1 LAW

[robert05]

Must have been tipping a few early this am SRUPP. You seemed to have lost your dignity and ability to be coherent!

That sir is a rediculase response, grow up, not every one has the same opinion. It is easy to see you have not
been in an area where natives shoot moose 365 days a year and at all hours.

[180grainer]

There is nothing wrong with FN reporting their harvest and in recent years some nations have taken it upon themselves to census their members on their annual harvest, these numbers are shared with the Province who can then put real numbers to what is harvested rather than the province underestimating that harvest, which was historically the case. If this is the case, those numbers should be accessible, right? Can you provide those numbers? There's a whole host of problems the go along with "self reporting". I am familiar with such programs and most are huge failures.

Another FN has taken it one step further and enacted regulations and allocation to their members as well as mandatory reporting while respecting their individual indigenous rights, promoting that those rights do not come without responsibility. So what does it mean "mandatory reporting while respecting their individual indigenous rights"? Again, if those numbers are not made available to the general public along with the method of collection and transfer of information, then as far as I'm concerned, it didn't happen.

I also wanted to mention that the signage we see in different areas that illustrates the impacts of shooting one cow in comparison to shooting a bull are huge as far as education for sustainability goes. Many living in poor economic conditions, that rely on hunting and fishing to survive and may be somewhat illiterate or not educated can understand what is being depicted on those signs.

Finally, in the case of the Tsihlqot'in who signed an accord with the Province for co-management of moose in which it is stated that one of the results of the accord will be a co-developed and co-hosted moose roundtable workshop with the goal of bringing representatives of neighboring Indigenous nations and stakeholders who wish to constructively engage in finding solutions to the moose decline in the region. Now if this isn't an invite to participate or even meet with TNG to discuss paths forward then I don't know what is. Is there a place where one could read the minutes of such meetings to see what was discussed, who was there, what actions were suggested etc? I for one would be very interested in this dialogue. Cooperation between competing parties, ( which the governments and courts have turned us into) must be transparent.

Probably more than you were asking for but hope it helps somewhat.
.................................................. ................................................

[gcreek]

.................................................. ................................................


Hey 180, I think Chilcotin Hillbilly went to more meetings than I did, he may be privy to minutes.

[f350ps]

Thanks for the info PJ, hopefully something good will come out of this! K

[REMINGTON JIM]

WoW ! lots going on in this thread ! ;-) Some Interesting Facts and Interesting BS too ! Whats What ? RJ

[Jagermeister]

Don’t blow a gasket curly top....some of us are actually working for future improvements.
Mouthing off on here doesn’t get a damn thing done.Where do you get off on Curly Top blowing a gasket

Originally Posted by bearvalleyHere’s something to consider....when ALL become accountable for numbers SOME are not going to like the end result.
Harvest opportunities will be slashed....and not the FN share.
Something for you boys to think about."

"So be it then. This isnt about take all you can get now, because nothing will be left soon. It should be about sustainability, the future, for years to come. To those holding back numbers and honesty.....With out real numbers, accurate numbers, our bios and managers will continue to manage the way they have for too long. Look where that has us.
Again, accountability by EVERYONE, by all, every user group, or zero sustainability is in the future, were slowly getting there with the system we have had and continue to have.
So with the attitude, have at er well you can, its not going to last, our hunting future of our traditions and heritage will be gone.
All he did was expound precisely what you were implying.

[bearvalley]

Where do you get off on Curly Top blowing a gasket

Originally Posted by bearvalleyHere’s something to consider....when ALL become accountable for numbers SOME are not going to like the end result.
Harvest opportunities will be slashed....and not the FN share.
Something for you boys to think about."

"So be it then. This isnt about take all you can get now, because nothing will be left soon. It should be about sustainability, the future, for years to come. To those holding back numbers and honesty.....With out real numbers, accurate numbers, our bios and managers will continue to manage the way they have for too long. Look where that has us.
Again, accountability by EVERYONE, by all, every user group, or zero sustainability is in the future, were slowly getting there with the system we have had and continue to have.
So with the attitude, have at er well you can, its not going to last, our hunting future of our traditions and heritage will be gone.
All he did was expound precisely what you were implying.

Dennis, my statement about mouthing off on here wasn’t just directed at curly.
Maybe all the ones that are so sure that FN over harvest is such a major problem should start taking pictures, documenting facts or whatever it takes to prove this wanton killing is happening.
From my observations the FN harvest is not even close to what it was in the past.
lf and when the day comes and it is shown that the FN harvested share of wildlife is closer to the 25% range instead of the 50% they are allocated there will be a lot of howling & moaning from the maximum opportunity crowd.
That group is going to find out in a hurry they are taking over their share.

[Jack Russell]

Here’s something to consider....when ALL become accountable for numbers SOME are not going to like the end result.
Harvest opportunities will be slashed....and not the FN share.
Something for you boys to think about.

This is fearmongering.

Statements made, without statements being made. Why so innocuous?

[180grainer]

Hey 180, I think Chilcotin Hillbilly went to more meetings than I did, he may be privy to minutes.

Hopefully, he'll chime in here somewhere with that information.

[Cordillera]

Ok I’ll add a few ideas on the original question. We have lots of evidence that moose were a late arrival in BC. Here in Smithers they were not present until the 20th century. But interesting enough there was a moose antler found in a swamp nearby that dated back thousands of years so maybe they were here then disappeared, then came back. This used to be a caribou ecosystem. Not just on the mountains but in the valley bottom. Moose Valley north of Fort st James is called that because it’s where the local First Nations first encountered moose.

Why did Moose move south? Well the idea that the railway created the habitat is interesting but there is piles of habitat on flood plains, swamps, and in old growth forests that existed before the railway, so I don’t think that holds up. So maybe the moose just took a long time to get here... or maybe factors like the little ice age played a role. We will probably never really know but it is pretty clear that moose were not as widely distributed or abundant at contact than today. And as Srupp points out the reliance by First Nations on Moose is relatively recent.

[LuckyHorseshoe]

I agree that moose may not always have been a part of FN history, but unfortunatly their argument will quickly change. They will say that with the decline of of salmon and competition with resident hunters over game etc. that they rely on the moose as sustenance hunters as their primary food source. This doesn’t affect the fact that ALL harvests need to be reported so that the population can be properly managed. That’s an irrefutable fact.

[Muliechaser]

Dennis, my statement about mouthing off on here wasn’t just directed at curly.
Maybe all the ones that are so sure that FN over harvest is such a major problem should start taking pictures, documenting facts or whatever it takes to prove this wanton killing is happening.
From my observations the FN harvest is not even close to what it was in the past.
lf and when the day comes and it is shown that the FN harvested share of wildlife is closer to the 25% range instead of the 50% they are allocated there will be a lot of howling & moaning from the maximum opportunity crowd.
That group is going to find out in a hurry they are taking over their share.

Cows calfs bulls bucks does fawns you name it bud . 24-7. Highly unregulated . Augest to febuary mostly . Not uncommon . Mostly cows/does with 10-20% being bucks/bulls . If its brown its down. What maximum opportunity crowd are you refering too? People who pay everyyear to hunt from sep -dec? Can only hunt from sunrise to sunset ? Resrictions in certain areas? I will tell you one thing ... i am native ... i am papered... i hunt from sept 1st to dec 20th i buy licences and tags . I hunt on crown land during open season from sunrise to sunset . I ABIDE by all laws put in place to protect wildlife .. i do not hunt on band land at anytime like i can . Or claim traditional territory and pull the race card on crown land .

If i hunted like the rest playing the race card my season would last a few days at best .

Moral is as EVERYYEAR from my area HUNDREDS of animals taken at night . Before and after OUR season. By only a handfull of "hunters" .

There is absolutly overharvest happening every. Single. year .

One land one law .

If we all put in the $ the time and abide by rules and have some morals and quit phukin fighting all the time and put our heads together things might get beter for a change .

United we stand devided we fall . And its showing .

Mc

[REMINGTON JIM]

Muliechaser - Glad you came on here and SAID it like it is ! Also the Fact you are Hunting under the Regulations and Laws like the Majority of us have to ! :smile: One Land - One Law for ALL ! Great to have a Honest Native speak up ! Thanks :smile:

Cheers RJ

[HarryToolips]

Good on ya MulieChaser.....saw a FN today harvest a bull moose in reg 8...divided we are for sure...

[338win mag]

Cows calfs bulls bucks does fawns you name it bud . 24-7. Highly unregulated . Augest to febuary mostly . Not uncommon . Mostly cows/does with 10-20% being bucks/bulls . If its brown its down. What maximum opportunity crowd are you refering too? People who pay everyyear to hunt from sep -dec? Can only hunt from sunrise to sunset ? Resrictions in certain areas? I will tell you one thing ... i am native ... i am papered... i hunt from sept 1st to dec 20th i buy licences and tags . I hunt on crown land during open season from sunrise to sunset . I ABIDE by all laws put in place to protect wildlife .. i do not hunt on band land at anytime like i can . Or claim traditional territory and pull the race card on crown land .

If i hunted like the rest playing the race card my season would last a few days at best .

Moral is as EVERYYEAR from my area HUNDREDS of animals taken at night . Before and after OUR season. By only a handfull of "hunters" .

There is absolutly overharvest happening every. Single. year .

One land one law .

If we all put in the $ the time and abide by rules and have some morals and quit phukin fighting all the time and put our heads together things might get beter for a change .

United we stand devided we fall . And its showing .

Mc
This is "moral culture" ^^^^^^^
Just because its legal....doesn't make it right, thanks Mulie!

[chilcotin hillbilly]

Hopefully, he'll chime in here somewhere with that information.

so here I am and still undecided on how to approach this issue.

The TNG moose round table sounded like a good idea at first glance. With everyone from BCWF, GOABC, Cattleman's, lots of FN representation,BCTA, forest licensee representatives and piles of government from regional biologists, regional staffers, and several from Victoria with about 60 people ready to fix the moose problem.
The first couple meetings where constructive setting the level of importance of different moose populations triggers and effects.
The number one concern was predation
Access, habitat enhancement, road deactivation and even responsible unlicensed harvest was on the table.

Once the list was established Terms of Reference for the round table was worked on, that is when I realized the the whole process ws a waste of time.
There was even talk about paying elders who wanted to drop in to the meetings and hear what was going on. This really pissed me off as out of a large room of people there was only about four of use that weren't getting paid to be there. With the TOF finished and promises of more meetings to really start work on developing timelines for the work on the ground to start.................the round table ended.

Two things happened to end the round table.

The TNG and Alexanderia Band asked for reduced licensed harvest in some areas, up to 80% reduction saying they needed the bull moose for their own needs. Government folded like cheap suits and reduced non resident quota and LEH opportunity by 80%. Putting several outfitters out of business and changing a lot of peoples hunting plans for region 5.

Signing of the MOU with the CO service put the final nail in the coffin for the round table. Just because the TNG claims they will not kill cow moose (even thought they admit they have several members that will not follow the MOU) this was the trigger for government to reduce licensed hunting.

This past summer I invited myself to a TNG moose meeting in Redstone. It was disgusting what went on. The TNG biologist stood up at the front and explained the MOU with the CO's and how it removed licensed hunters from the landscape. Put up your hand if you two would like to see less hunting pressure on your land!.
The only question now was whether Tsi Del Del wanted to included mule deer does into the MOU as well just like Xeni Gwet’in did.
It was unanimous that does would still be hunted and there was no appetite to stop shooting does.
Of course I voiced my opinion as the uninvited guest and reminded everyone in the room that private properties and no shooting zone rules need to be respected. Once again I was told they cannot control their members.

Just two days ago I chased a couple of band members out of the Tatlayoko Valley who where hunting out of their new GMC crew cab looking for deer. These where not punks but a couple in their 60's.

Do I see a future in the Chilcotin working together collectively? Not until we get government to quit pandering to FN.

On a better note Xeni Gwet’in did draft their own wildlife laws, in it is some great stuff.
No does or cows to be shot.
4 mule deer point bucks only
3 point whitetail bucks
No night hunting at all.
Fair chase applies to everyone.

That being said chief Jimmy admits he can not control everyone.

I wish I had better news.

Cheers,
CB

[Whiterock]

Good for you Muliechaser,,I have nothing but respect, for you,,,

[180grainer]

That being said chief Jimmy admits he can not control everyone.

Cheers,
CB
And this is why it's all BS. How in the hell did we allow the FN to have this type of veto power over the rest of the population? What the hell have the courts and governments done? The FN are not controllable in the bush as a group and no one can do anything about it. Meanwhile, the game populations suffer and everyone else's hunting privileges are sacrificed.........The FN are nothing but a bunch of sick self serving phukes. And I don't care if that sounds racist. The whole thing has been set up to label anyone who dissents as a racist......so I'm a racist.

[willyqbc]

On a better note Xeni Gwet’in did draft their own wildlife laws, in it is some great stuff.
No does or cows to be shot.
4 mule deer point bucks only
3 point whitetail bucks
No night hunting at all.
Fair chase applies to everyone.

That being said chief Jimmy admits he can not control everyone.

Well, i'll say this......If HIS RULES, drafted by his own hand, and meant to apply to HIS PEOPLE.....DONT APPLY, or WONT BE ENFORCED on his own people

...................................THEY SURE AS HELL DON'T APPLY TO ME!!!!!!!!!!

I've said it before, and I'll say it again....if the day comes that my ability to hunt/fish legally is taken from me while others continue to harvest wildlife and fish based solely on their skin color........ I will become a "poacher"......what are they gonna do....take my license away???

[srupp]

Thanks Doug.cant believe how hard this is on you, your familly, your buisness your passion for wildlfe.putting your wealth of knowledge foward to help everyone..putting yourself out there to try and help. ..those that for the most part only want help to have it all.
thanks for the insight.
Steven

[LBM]

so here I am and still undecided on how to approach this issue.

The TNG moose round table sounded like a good idea at first glance. With everyone from BCWF, GOABC, Cattleman's, lots of FN representation,BCTA, forest licensee representatives and piles of government from regional biologists, regional staffers, and several from Victoria with about 60 people ready to fix the moose problem.
The first couple meetings where constructive setting the level of importance of different moose populations triggers and effects.
The number one concern was predation
Access, habitat enhancement, road deactivation and even responsible unlicensed harvest was on the table.

Once the list was established Terms of Reference for the round table was worked on, that is when I realized the the whole process ws a waste of time.
There was even talk about paying elders who wanted to drop in to the meetings and hear what was going on. This really pissed me off as out of a large room of people there was only about four of use that weren't getting paid to be there. With the TOF finished and promises of more meetings to really start work on developing timelines for the work on the ground to start.................the round table ended.

Two things happened to end the round table.

The TNG and Alexanderia Band asked for reduced licensed harvest in some areas, up to 80% reduction saying they needed the bull moose for their own needs. Government folded like cheap suits and reduced non resident quota and LEH opportunity by 80%. Putting several outfitters out of business and changing a lot of peoples hunting plans for region 5.

Signing of the MOU with the CO service put the final nail in the coffin for the round table. Just because the TNG claims they will not kill cow moose (even thought they admit they have several members that will not follow the MOU) this was the trigger for government to reduce licensed hunting.

This past summer I invited myself to a TNG moose meeting in Redstone. It was disgusting what went on. The TNG biologist stood up at the front and explained the MOU with the CO's and how it removed licensed hunters from the landscape. Put up your hand if you two would like to see less hunting pressure on your land!.
The only question now was whether Tsi Del Del wanted to included mule deer does into the MOU as well just like Xeni Gwet’in did.
It was unanimous that does would still be hunted and there was no appetite to stop shooting does.
Of course I voiced my opinion as the uninvited guest and reminded everyone in the room that private properties and no shooting zone rules need to be respected. Once again I was told they cannot control their members.

Just two days ago I chased a couple of band members out of the Tatlayoko Valley who where hunting out of their new GMC crew cab looking for deer. These where not punks but a couple in their 60's.

Do I see a future in the Chilcotin working together collectively? Not until we get government to quit pandering to FN.

On a better note Xeni Gwet’in did draft their own wildlife laws, in it is some great stuff.
No does or cows to be shot.
4 mule deer point bucks only
3 point whitetail bucks
No night hunting at all.
Fair chase applies to everyone.

That being said chief Jimmy admits he can not control everyone.

I wish I had better news.

Cheers,
CB
Thanks for attending and posting up. Sorry to hear all of this, but have seen enough of what they do and goes on in other regions, but some on here may believe it if comes from you.
All the best to you and your family if you have to give up your business.

[REMINGTON JIM]

I am NOT Surprised at ALL on Doug's Report :-(- The FN's do as they Please ! When they Please and how they Please and PISS on ALL us Whities ! :shock:Only Gonna get Worst too as they get more and more power from the NDP Gov and the Fed Libs !
Better be Voting BLUE in this FED election and WE had better get BLUE rolling here in BC before its too LATE ! jmo RJ

[180grainer]

Maybe I'll stop patronizing those businesses I know are owned by Indians. Maybe I'll stop patronizing those businesses that hire Indians. And when people ask me why I'm refusing to do business with Indians, I'll tell them the truth. It's the only legal means available to me that I can think of to protect my heritage and rail against a pre 11th century game management strategy practiced by Indians and supported/sponsored by government and the judicial system.

Whatever you do, if it benefits and involves Indians, stop doing it. It's that, or reconcile the fact your children aren't going to be hunting when they're your age.

[gcreek]

so here I am and still undecided on how to approach this issue.

The TNG moose round table sounded like a good idea at first glance. With everyone from BCWF, GOABC, Cattleman's, lots of FN representation,BCTA, forest licensee representatives and piles of government from regional biologists, regional staffers, and several from Victoria with about 60 people ready to fix the moose problem.
The first couple meetings where constructive setting the level of importance of different moose populations triggers and effects.
The number one concern was predation
Access, habitat enhancement, road deactivation and even responsible unlicensed harvest was on the table.

Once the list was established Terms of Reference for the round table was worked on, that is when I realized the the whole process ws a waste of time.
There was even talk about paying elders who wanted to drop in to the meetings and hear what was going on. This really pissed me off as out of a large room of people there was only about four of use that weren't getting paid to be there. With the TOF finished and promises of more meetings to really start work on developing timelines for the work on the ground to start.................the round table ended.

Two things happened to end the round table.

The TNG and Alexanderia Band asked for reduced licensed harvest in some areas, up to 80% reduction saying they needed the bull moose for their own needs. Government folded like cheap suits and reduced non resident quota and LEH opportunity by 80%. Putting several outfitters out of business and changing a lot of peoples hunting plans for region 5.

Signing of the MOU with the CO service put the final nail in the coffin for the round table. Just because the TNG claims they will not kill cow moose (even thought they admit they have several members that will not follow the MOU) this was the trigger for government to reduce licensed hunting.

This past summer I invited myself to a TNG moose meeting in Redstone. It was disgusting what went on. The TNG biologist stood up at the front and explained the MOU with the CO's and how it removed licensed hunters from the landscape. Put up your hand if you two would like to see less hunting pressure on your land!.
The only question now was whether Tsi Del Del wanted to included mule deer does into the MOU as well just like Xeni Gwet’in did.
It was unanimous that does would still be hunted and there was no appetite to stop shooting does.
Of course I voiced my opinion as the uninvited guest and reminded everyone in the room that private properties and no shooting zone rules need to be respected. Once again I was told they cannot control their members.

Just two days ago I chased a couple of band members out of the Tatlayoko Valley who where hunting out of their new GMC crew cab looking for deer. These where not punks but a couple in their 60's.

Do I see a future in the Chilcotin working together collectively? Not until we get government to quit pandering to FN.

On a better note Xeni Gwet’in did draft their own wildlife laws, in it is some great stuff.
No does or cows to be shot.
4 mule deer point bucks only
3 point whitetail bucks
No night hunting at all.
Fair chase applies to everyone.

That being said chief Jimmy admits he can not control everyone.

I wish I had better news.

Cheers,
CB


Thanks Doug, I thought as much. I read the writing on the wall when that lawyer lady gave her little speech at the end of the first get together. At least I can keep them off my postage stamp in this province.

[338win mag]

Maybe I'll stop patronizing those businesses I know are owned by Indians. Maybe I'll stop patronizing those businesses that hire Indians. And when people ask me why I'm refusing to do business with Indians, I'll tell them the truth. It's the only legal means available to me that I can think of to protect my heritage and rail against a pre 11th century game management strategy practiced by Indians and supported/sponsored by government and the judicial system.

Whatever you do, if it benefits and involves Indians, stop doing it. It's that, or reconcile the fact your children aren't going to be hunting when they're your age.
Agreed^^^^^

Another sad reality is that its going to look alot like this over the entire province, and maybe all of Canada. Interesting to know who was involved with the giveaways, my mind begins to wander when I think......I wonder if there was any corruption?
or.... who got stroked/bought/caught/blown during the fake process...but we know it was legit...right?

[edgar11]

First of all, I would like to state that I am not here to argue for one side or the other and I would just like to educate some fellow Canadians on such a controversial topic. I have tried to educate on this topic numerous times before to no avail. I recently watched this series on the Discovery channel called "Why we hate". It was interesting to see why we hate and how humanity has used it as a source of power to sway peoples opinions. Politics is just one example of this.
It is no coincidence that "Indians" were classified as "different" then the rest of Canadians by the government. This has been done in other parts of the world with the same reaction.
You split people into separate groups and then you give one "special privileges" over the other and "Bam" you have Hate.
Not to mention that these laws ended up doing nasty things to the Indigenous people it made a divide and different classes of people. Same with the Japanese Canadians during the War.
These reactions are primal and foolproof for the people in authority. They get the reactions they want.
The best way to overcome our problems is to learn to work together and educate ourselves. Once we know what really is happening we can start to work towards resolutions to the problem.
Most of us, regardless of what color our skin is, want the same thing. Fairness and equality and the ability to hunt in our own country. If the government really wanted this too, we would be at a solution to this by now.
It is obvious that EVERYONE should be reporting for conservation purposes and there should be regulations even for FN. I know this is going on with fisheries and I would hope it is at least happening somewhere in the province with hunting as well.
I urge others to watch the 6 part series "Why we hate" if they are able to as well as do some research on Indigenous people for this area to gain a better understanding. We all know "knowledge is power" and in this day and age, information is very easy to find if you look for it. The internet is a good start but there are many local people around that would probably offer their assistance if you were sincere in finding solutions to many of the problems we are facing. IMHO.

[srupp]

Hmmmm easy peasy..one step solution..

We are ALL equal...period.
However indians dont want to give up all the $$$ all the advantages..all the a$$ kissing..
Anything wrong with equal edgar ?...however it would mean giving up 5 of the 6 dollars currently forked out.
Nice to see the proposed changes by some..now to see how much gets implemented.
Steven

[willyqbc]

Edgar, I'll lay-out the core problems around this issue, as I see em and would like to hear how you would propose we solve them

1. FN "rights" are constitutionally protected and are garaunteed to the INDIVIDUAL. It matters not what a band council may agree to with gov't and stakeholders, any INDIVIDUAL FN can still go out and do whatever he/she pleases

2. agreements with individual bands are not worth the paper they are written on. I've seen this over and over again in the forest industry. As an example...slocan enters into an agreement with the local band council to buy some of "their" timber....slocan then goes out and spends money on timber cruising, road building etc. Time comes to harvest the timber.....but wait, theres been an election and we now have a new band council, who promptly tears up any existing contracts, gets taken to court, slocan told by courts...sorry, under new management, agreements with last band council don't apply

3. Why would FN ever come to the table and "negotiate" with stakeholders....they currently hold all the cards and any compromise would involve them giving something up

4. The Gov't bureaucrats DONT WANT TO SEE ANY RESOLUTION!!! Department of indian Affairs, or whatever they are calling it these days has a budget that rivals healthcare. The very people who should be working toward solutions....will find themselves unemployed if we ever truly resolved the issue once and for all....first rule of gov't, don't shoot the goose that lays the golden egg.

So please, tell me, how the hell do we ever find a middle ground that everyone can live with, when the "go betweens" (govt) have no interest in resolving anything, and one side (FN) has absolutely no motivation to "meet us in the middle". As much as my wife likes to think so, COMPROMISE is NOT one side giving up everything to the other.

Respectfully
Chris

[edgar11]

Edgar, I'll lay-out the core problems around this issue, as I see em and would like to hear how you would propose we solve them

1. FN "rights" are constitutionally protected and are garaunteed to the INDIVIDUAL. It matters not what a band council may agree to with gov't and stakeholders, any INDIVIDUAL FN can still go out and do whatever he/she pleases

2. agreements with individual bands are not worth the paper they are written on. I've seen this over and over again in the forest industry. As an example...slocan enters into an agreement with the local band council to buy some of "their" timber....slocan then goes out and spends money on timber cruising, road building etc. Time comes to harvest the timber.....but wait, theres been an election and we now have a new band council, who promptly tears up any existing contracts, gets taken to court, slocan told by courts...sorry, under new management, agreements with last band council don't apply

3. Why would FN ever come to the table and "negotiate" with stakeholders....they currently hold all the cards and any compromise would involve them giving something up

4. The Gov't bureaucrats DONT WANT TO SEE ANY RESOLUTION!!! Department of indian Affairs, or whatever they are calling it these days has a budget that rivals healthcare. The very people who should be working toward solutions....will find themselves unemployed if we ever truly resolved the issue once and for all....first rule of gov't, don't shoot the goose that lays the golden egg.

So please, tell me, how the hell do we ever find a middle ground that everyone can live with, when the "go betweens" (govt) have no interest in resolving anything, and one side (FN) has absolutely no motivation to "meet us in the middle". As much as my wife likes to think so, COMPROMISE is NOT one side giving up everything to the other.

Respectfully
Chris

It starts by erasing that line in the sand and understanding our similarities more then our differences. Once we are both on the same side we then can start to force them to make changes.
We have grown up understanding where we stand and it makes it difficult for us to think otherwise.
I have said before that in order for Indigenous people to heal from the after effects of colonialism they will need to go back to cultural idealism and philosophies. This takes time.
Once we are all reading the same book with the same language, things will start to work itself out.
I have also said before that the Indian Act needs to go and the country needs to work out something once and for all and end the different group status which is part of the problem.
I know its not a simple solution but its something that has to start somewhere and by somebody. I am willing to work with anyone who wants equality and fairness for everyone even if it means I lose certain privileges in the process. There are much more important things in life then that anyways.

[180grainer]

It starts by erasing that line in the sand and understanding our similarities more then our differences. Once we are both on the same side we then can start to force them to make changes. Sorry, that's BS. The US tried that approach with China. Remember? Engage China and it will become democratic. What happened? The exact opposite. Large American corporations like Google are working actively with the Communist government of China to control its people. America got sold down the road to cheap labor and easy access to shit radios. It has been pointed out. The Indian has no reason what so ever to actively seek common ground. The Constitution, which normally ensures equal treatment and protection under the law for "all people", has enshrined the Indian as some how special. Better than us and deserving of special and preferential treatment. The Supreme Court has no choice but to follow that document. We have been phuked by a closet Communist "Trudeau Sr." and the UN.
We have grown up understanding where we stand and it makes it difficult for us to think otherwise.
I have said before that in order for Indigenous people to heal from the after effects of colonialism they will need to go back to cultural idealism and philosophies. This takes time. This is also BS. The Indigenous people have no more of a right to "heal" than the Irish. How about the Kurds? How about English who inhabited the coast line and within reach of the Norse, or the Millions of survivors of Pol Pot? Right Phuking now, political prisoners in China are having their organs harvested by the "State" for profit, and there are actually re-education camps for Muslims. What happened to the FN was awful. But no more awful than what they were doing to themselves and we as "human beings" have been doing to ourselves since we crawled out of the swamp. It is absolutely disgusting to accentuate Indian suffering over the suffering of others and bestow special rights and privileges because of it. And that's exactly what our Constitution does when it comes to the Indian. You actually have to truncate, not only the historical axis, but the geographical axis, (if there is such a thing) to come to the conclusions the drafters of our Constitution did. That some how, "these" people should be treated "this" way, and everyone else "be treated" that way.....
Once we are all reading the same book with the same language, things will start to work itself out.
I have also said before that the Indian Act needs to go and the country needs to work out something once and for all and end the different group status which is part of the problem. Sounds really nice. Can you point to any type of examples of progress......any what so ever, that we're actually moving in that direction? Or are there lots of examples where we're cementing this ideology, (cause that's what it is) into reality with these modern day treaties etc?
I know its not a simple solution but its something that has to start somewhere and by somebody. Yea, I'm somebody, not patronizing any Indian establishment or business. Be respectful in those circumstances where you're asked to explain yourself. Remember, common sense "is" on your side. We've been fed a bad meal and it's time to puke it back up.I am willing to work with anyone who wants equality and fairness for everyone even if it means I lose certain privileges in the process. There are much more important things in life then that anyways.
.................................................. .................................................. ..........

[180grainer]

Is race a social construct? Or does white privileged exist?

[180grainer]

Islam is right about women.

[willyqbc]

It starts by erasing that line in the sand and understanding our similarities more then our differences. Once we are both on the same side we then can start to force them to make changes.
We have grown up understanding where we stand and it makes it difficult for us to think otherwise.
I have said before that in order for Indigenous people to heal from the after effects of colonialism they will need to go back to cultural idealism and philosophies. This takes time.
Once we are all reading the same book with the same language, things will start to work itself out.
I have also said before that the Indian Act needs to go and the country needs to work out something once and for all and end the different group status which is part of the problem.
I know its not a simple solution but its something that has to start somewhere and by somebody. I am willing to work with anyone who wants equality and fairness for everyone even if it means I lose certain privileges in the process. There are much more important things in life then that anyways.

Well edgar, YOU may well want to remove the line in the sand, but the reality is that the majority of FN people do not. If the FN TRULY wanted to eliminate the "different group status" you mention, it would be quite simple....a call to gov't from FN to have "indigenous rights" removed from the constitution, abolish the indian act and all treaties along with it.
But thats never going to happen. what possible motivation could FN have to put themselves on level footing with the rest of Canada.

As an example...lets take moose hunting. If the non FN stakeholders came to the table and said, "we'd really like to work with FN for healthy moose numbers and sound harvest management. We recognize your right to hunt moose, and seeing as your people are 10% of the population, we have no problem with your people getting 10% of the allocation. We'd like tags (free) to be used and would like harvest reporting to ensure we don't go over allocation"
........how well do you think that would go over??? we all know the FN rep would laugh and walk away.

FN certainly feel as though they were vistimized in the past.....non FN feel as though they are being victimized NOW.....not hard to understand the animosity.....VERY hard to change it

[edgar11]

.................................................. .................................................. ..........

Its only BS because you cannot get past your hatred. Redirecting to another situation(China) is just dodging the situation. The "common ground" is that we all share mother earth. This matters because we all need the planet to survive. We not only need it but our children and grandchildren also need it to. Greed, jealousy, money and the need for power cloud our judgement on what really matters.
Everyone has the right to heal no matter who they are. Many don't know how to do this. Society and those that run the world don't want everyone to heal how can they profit off of that? You see the big picture?
Progress is happening its just going at a slow rate. A lot of things that were lost; language,culture,spirituality are coming back and those that were traumatized are getting help from those who have now healed themselves.
I know from a friend who is involved in Band business says that they have agreements with fisheries for conservation, he also said that they were part of the group that released Elk into the Harrison Lake area. Not all bands are like this but like I said, not all have healed yet.
Knowledge is our best friend and I urge you to learn as much as you can. We know if we just watch the local news channels it paints a picture of mostly doom and gloom around the world. We cannot get caught up in this as this is not what is really happening in the world.

[180grainer]

Its only BS because you cannot get past your hatred. Redirecting to another situation(China) is just dodging the situation. The "common ground" is that we all share mother earth. This matters because we all need the planet to survive. We not only need it but our children and grandchildren also need it to. Greed, jealousy, money and the need for power cloud our judgement on what really matters.
Everyone has the right to heal no matter who they are. Many don't know how to do this. Society and those that run the world don't want everyone to heal how can they profit off of that? You see the big picture?
Progress is happening its just going at a slow rate. A lot of things that were lost; language,culture,spirituality are coming back and those that were traumatized are getting help from those who have now healed themselves.
I know from a friend who is involved in Band business says that they have agreements with fisheries for conservation, he also said that they were part of the group that released Elk into the Harrison Lake area. Not all bands are like this but like I said, not all have healed yet.
Knowledge is our best friend and I urge you to learn as much as you can. We know if we just watch the local news channels it paints a picture of mostly doom and gloom around the world. We cannot get caught up in this as this is not what is really happening in the world.
There is not an argument in your statement. It's a lamentation..........

[180grainer]

Its only BS because you cannot get past your hatred. Redirecting to another situation(China) is just dodging the situation. The "common ground" is that we all share mother earth. This matters because we all need the planet to survive. We not only need it but our children and grandchildren also need it to. Greed, jealousy, money and the need for power cloud our judgement on what really matters.
Everyone has the right to heal no matter who they are. Many don't know how to do this. Society and those that run the world don't want everyone to heal how can they profit off of that? You see the big picture?
Progress is happening its just going at a slow rate. A lot of things that were lost; language,culture,spirituality are coming back and those that were traumatized are getting help from those who have now healed themselves.
I know from a friend who is involved in Band business says that they have agreements with fisheries for conservation, he also said that they were part of the group that released Elk into the Harrison Lake area. Not all bands are like this but like I said, not all have healed yet.
Knowledge is our best friend and I urge you to learn as much as you can. We know if we just watch the local news channels it paints a picture of mostly doom and gloom around the world. We cannot get caught up in this as this is not what is really happening in the world.

Why are you special?

[REMINGTON JIM]

[QUOTE=edgar11;2124656]It starts by erasing that line in the sand and understanding our similarities more then our differences. Once we are both on the same side we then can start to force them to make changes.

edgar How do you purpose to get that DONE when the most FN's don't want it erased ? Pretty TUFF to get on the same side - EH RJ

[edgar11]

Well edgar, YOU may well want to remove the line in the sand, but the reality is that the majority of FN people do not. If the FN TRULY wanted to eliminate the "different group status" you mention, it would be quite simple....a call to gov't from FN to have "indigenous rights" removed from the constitution, abolish the indian act and all treaties along with it.
But thats never going to happen. what possible motivation could FN have to put themselves on level footing with the rest of Canada.

As an example...lets take moose hunting. If the non FN stakeholders came to the table and said, "we'd really like to work with FN for healthy moose numbers and sound harvest management. We recognize your right to hunt moose, and seeing as your people are 10% of the population, we have no problem with your people getting 10% of the allocation. We'd like tags (free) to be used and would like harvest reporting to ensure we don't go over allocation"
........how well do you think that would go over??? we all know the FN rep would laugh and walk away.

FN certainly feel as though they were vistimized in the past.....non FN feel as though they are being victimized NOW.....not hard to understand the animosity.....VERY hard to change it

I think those that are true to their values and ethics would not have a problem working towards conservation. The problem is that the government is not very trusworthy so the leaders are a little apprehensive of "promises". Can you blame them? History shows their not very trustworthy.
So they would have to go to the table with conservation on EVERYONE'S mind. I think that that if a sound plan was set in place, both parties could come to some type of agreement. I would suggest having Elders on hand to keep the leaders on track with conservation.
We understand that their are legitimate reasons for hunting and that there are some that just abuse it. If you are hunting for legitimate reasons(i.e. Ceremony) then apply for this. There is no reason for one person to go out and shoot dozens of game just because they can. Both sides would agree with this and would support some kind of retribution for abusers.
Its not impossible it just has to start somewhere. Arguing and fighting about who is right and wrong is going to get us nowhere.
You right, change would not go over with everyone but everyone would agree that the system in place right now is flawed and there needs to be a process to have change. I have ideas but it would take pages to explain. I am sure though that the divide has to end before any progress will be made and this has to start with us.

[edgar11]

Why are you special?

I am not special and that is what I am trying to say. We are equal its just that the powers that be would like to have us divided for gain.

[180grainer]

I pray for rainbows too.....Just like Justin and his dad.... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=671AgW9xSiA

[edgar11]

[QUOTE=edgar11;2124656]It starts by erasing that line in the sand and understanding our similarities more then our differences. Once we are both on the same side we then can start to force them to make changes.

edgar How do you purpose to get that DONE when the most FN's don't want it erased ? Pretty TUFF to get on the same side - EH RJ

I think education is the key to everything. Understanding makes things so much clearer and allows people to think without emotion. Anger fuels alot of these discussions and we all know that we say things differently when we are emotional and think clearer once we calm down.
If everyone understands that a plan would benefit everyone, then we may have more and more want the changes.

[edgar11]

I pray for rainbows too.....Just like Justin and his dad.... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=671AgW9xSiA

Unfortunately politicians have their own agenda and it has nothing to do with you and me.

[180grainer]

Unfortunately politicians have their own agenda and it has nothing to do with you and me.

Cop out, what's democracy?

[338win mag]

I am not special and that is what I am trying to say. We are equal its just that the powers that be would like to have us divided for gain.
You are indoctrinated, and the cycle continue's.....You are the "powers that be".....
Only the government can make people equal in this country, God already did it once.

[edgar11]

Cop out, what's democracy?

Democracy is when you vote for someone and they do what they promised and not go on their own agenda once voted in.

[180grainer]

Yea... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RaYfA7tfT1g

[180grainer]

The only reason this thing has survived as long as it has is because of the Globalist Leftist agenda has started to crumble in front of everyone's eyes.

[180grainer]

Democracy is when you vote for someone and they do what they promised and not go on their own agenda once voted in.
If you've walked yourself up to this point....where you make that statement? Then I want to take your picture. And I want to post it in every Provincial building, as an example of how phuking stupid the average voter is and then point them to the consternation's of the Founding Fathers ( even tho I'm Canadian)about the "tyranny of the majority".....you phuking idiot.........

[180grainer]

The "consternations" of the founding fathers.....

[180grainer]

Democracy is when you vote for someone and they do what they promised and not go on their own agenda once voted in.

Can you demonstrate when that has happened?

[180grainer]

Not sure why..Maybe a Scandinavian thing. All races have their demons and saints.... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=usN-pKfw6Q8

[180grainer]

Said no body ever.

[180grainer]

What is wrong with you people.....

http://huntingbc.ca/forum/images/shades_of_green/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by edgar11 http://huntingbc.ca/forum/images/shades_of_green/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/showthread.php?p=2124656#post2124656)
It starts by erasing that line in the sand and understanding our similarities more then our differences. Once we are both on the same side we then can start to force them to make changes. Sorry, that's BS. The US tried that approach with China. Remember? Engage China and it will become democratic. What happened? The exact opposite. Large American corporations like Google are working actively with the Communist government of China to control its people. America got sold down the road to cheap labor and easy access to shit radios. It has been pointed out. The Indian has no reason what so ever to actively seek common ground. The Constitution, which normally ensures equal treatment and protection under the law for "all people", has enshrined the Indian as some how special. Better than us and deserving of special and preferential treatment. The Supreme Court has no choice but to follow that document. We have been phuked by a closet Communist "Trudeau Sr." and the UN.
We have grown up understanding where we stand and it makes it difficult for us to think otherwise.
I have said before that in order for Indigenous people to heal from the after effects of colonialism they will need to go back to cultural idealism and philosophies. This takes time. This is also BS. The Indigenous people have no more of a right to "heal" than the Irish. How about the Kurds? How about English who inhabited the coast line and within reach of the Norse, or the Millions of survivors of Pol Pot? Right Phuking now, political prisoners in China are having their organs harvested by the "State" for profit, and there are actually re-education camps for Muslims. What happened to the FN was awful. But no more awful than what they were doing to themselves and we as "human beings" have been doing to ourselves since we crawled out of the swamp. It is absolutely disgusting to accentuate Indian suffering over the suffering of others and bestow special rights and privileges because of it. And that's exactly what our Constitution does when it comes to the Indian. You actually have to truncate, not only the historical axis, but the geographical axis, (if there is such a thing) to come to the conclusions the drafters of our Constitution did. That some how, "these" people should be treated "this" way, and everyone else "be treated" that way.....
Once we are all reading the same book with the same language, things will start to work itself out.
I have also said before that the Indian Act needs to go and the country needs to work out something once and for all and end the different group status which is part of the problem. Sounds really nice. Can you point to any type of examples of progress......any what so ever, that we're actually moving in that direction? Or are there lots of examples where we're cementing this ideology, (cause that's what it is) into reality with these modern day treaties etc?
I know its not a simple solution but its something that has to start somewhere and by somebody. Yea, I'm somebody, not patronizing any Indian establishment or business. Be respectful in those circumstances where you're asked to explain yourself. Remember, common sense "is" on your side. We've been fed a bad meal and it's time to puke it back up.I am willing to work with anyone who wants equality and fairness for everyone even if it means I lose certain privileges in the process. There are much more important things in life then that anyways.



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Last edited by 180grainer (http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/posthistory.php?p=2124668); Today at 09:51 PM.

[180grainer]

What is wrong with you people? You're suppose to be a community.

[180grainer]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tAGnKpE4NCI

[edgar11]

Going back to Steven's initial argument. There is evidence contrary to his belief that Moose did not exist in B.C. prior to contact, in fact most writings state it was an integral part of the Indigenous diet. I guess it is similar to what most of what he says anyways and like he knows what the meanings of a totem pole are in the first place. :lol: And 180 grainer?........ Have another drink bud cause I have no idea what you are blabbering about.:)