Moose in BC : What’s driving the declines?

[Nechako Outdoors]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xH_epWSjMEo

[Onesock]

Good video. Are “unlicensed” hunters natives or poachers?

[wideopenthrottle]

great research...hope our idiot politicians don't try to "confirm" the science with a poll on the internet

[boxhitch]

Good video. Are “unlicensed” hunters natives or poachers?yes.......

[Pacemaker]

Excellent video.....Very well done and very informative...

[250 sav]

Interesting video, I'd be interested to know how many calves die before 8 months. In my experience the young calves are killed by bears and coyotes.

[adriaticum]

Thanks for posting.
I think the pine beetle has to be the most relevant issue which resulted in a slew of other problems.

[guest]

Hats off to these Bios doing their best with the limited resources they are given. Way to go all of you.

THAT Said...... shame on our governments past and present with the cutbacks and lack of management, lack of predator control, lack of accountability in holding logging and mining companies to better standards......and lack of Accountability in unregulated hunting, its unknown numbers to special groups.

BC could be an absolute Mecca for Fish and wildlife when proper funding and management practices take place. But we are far to far from that. Enjoy it while you can because governments here in BC and Canada could care less.......except for catering to special groups.
Very sad indeed.

Again hats off to those trying to make this MESS better. You have a tough road ahead

[325]

Interesting for sure. Calf mortality seems really high in the bar graph. I'm betting bears are the main predators of calves. All the more reason to oppose the current anti-predator hunting pressure directed towards our government.

[mpotzold]

Interesting for sure. Calf mortality seems really high in the bar graph. I'm betting bears are the main predators of calves. All the more reason to oppose the current anti-predator hunting pressure directed towards our government.
You will easily win the bet! :smile:
The newborns & up to 2 months are the most vulnerable.

Bears are a major culprit in the dwindling moose numbers.

From our limited observations especially over the last dozen years or so & talking to many other hunters the bear numbers, in particular the blackies are way, way up & moose sightings, fresh signs are way, way down.

No doubt indiscriminate & uncontrolled day & night year round multi slaughter by the FN is also a big factor in the dwindling numbers.

There are other factors such as spraying, deforestation, accidents, disease, easy access…..

2017 article-bears killing calves study-with one killing 44 calves in 25 days. Overall, the bears killed an average of 34.4 moose and caribou calves over 45 days.
The scientists focused on the period of time when the [moose and caribou] calves are most vulnerable to predation in particular the newborn.
They kill a lot more than we think they do. A whole lot more.
https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/03/bears-are-bigger-killers-thought-gruesome-video-footage-reveals

-No doubt the bear numbers must be reduced.
-In some areas there are too many wolves.
-Night hunting must be repealed & all harvested moose must be reported by the FN otherwise moose management is a joke!
-For other hunters-no cow or calf hunting (LEH or otherwise) until full recovery +.

[HarryToolips]

^^^^fully agree....

[Arctic Lake]

Very sad that this night hunting takes place and all unreported harvesting ! Wildlife needs our help !
Arctic Lake

[338win mag]

Black bears.....If a hunter only shoots male bears, is that really lowering the bear population?
I think it could be raising the population of bears as the overall bear population has lost a major factor in the overall equation, male bears killing cubs....
Not sure, but shouldn't we be targeting female bears?

[srthomas75]

interesting video, thanks for posting it up.

[boxhitch]

The unlicensed harvest needs to be addressed, especially where cow harvest is concerned. This is only a fraction, but it is a target that can be singled out and altered reasonably easily.
A case has to be built, witnesses step forward, pictures and videos documenting actions, not just hearsay and innuendo
We all hear of the reefer truck cruuising around BC filling its load with poached game, but nobody has produced one single bit of evidence.

[boxhitch]

Black bears.....If a hunter only shoots male bears, is that really lowering the bear population?
I think it could be raising the population of bears as the overall bear population has lost a major factor in the overall equation, male bears killing cubs....
Not sure, but shouldn't we be targeting female bears?
In proportion to the population numbers, hunters are not having any effect on bears overall. Very few buy two tags let alone fill two, many are just cruising around looking for the right bear passing up opportunities.
All bears have a potential to be a fawn/calf/lamb/kid killer, and those hunters that are concerned are putting bears down whenever possible.

[WhiteTailAB]

2 legged wolves...

[Darksith]

Interesting video, I'd be interested to know how many calves die before 8 months. In my experience the young calves are killed by bears and coyotes.

exactly, there is a big gap there from 0-8 months old, and that gap will miss a big cause for moose decline, which is obviously predation by mostly bears I suspect. They should be including pregnant cow moose in the winter to calf survival at 8 months. Probably much harder to do, but a big piece of the puzzle.

Hopefully like others have said, politicians don't bend to industry. One term I heard that I didn't like was near the end, "moose management areas"...all of BC is a moose management area ffs...

[Arctic Lake]

The unlicensed harvest needs to be addressed, especially where cow harvest is concerned. This is only a fraction, but it is a target that can be singled out and altered reasonably easily.
A case has to be built, witnesses step forward, pictures and videos documenting actions, not just hearsay and innuendo
We all hear of the reefer truck cruuising around BC filling its load with poached game, but nobody has produced one single bit of evidence.

Sorry for my ignorance but does this really happen ? Can you post a link . There really needs to be something done .
Arctic Lake

[338win mag]

In proportion to the population numbers, hunters are not having any effect on bears overall. Very few buy two tags let alone fill two, many are just cruising around looking for the right bear passing up opportunities.
All bears have a potential to be a fawn/calf/lamb/kid killer, and those hunters that are concerned are putting bears down whenever possible.
My point was.....hunters target male bears almost always....its the females that need to be targeted if the bear populations are going to be diminished.
Populations can be lowered significantly by taking out females, males not so much, similar to ungulates almost exactly.

[Cyrus]

First to be hit will be license or leh buying hunters. I suspect we are not far from a complete closure.

[two-feet]

Couple comments:

I target tasty bears, anything without cubs and over 100lbs is a go for me and my crew.

I very rarely see hair in black bear scat? Why? Im not saying that they are not calf killers but why?

The clear evidence I see every time I am in the bush is huge ropes of wolf shit made of moose hair.

FN hold so much power now, if they campaign for pred management to improve their subsistence hunting what happens then? The far lefties would be tied in a knot.

[quadrakid]

Knew of a fellow in the Yukon that shot every bear he ever saw! He is long since dead himself. Old school predator management.

[willyqbc]

The unlicensed harvest needs to be addressed, especially where cow harvest is concerned. This is only a fraction, but it is a target that can be singled out and altered reasonably easily.
A case has to be built, witnesses step forward, pictures and videos documenting actions, not just hearsay and innuendo
We all hear of the reefer truck cruuising around BC filling its load with poached game, but nobody has produced one single bit of evidence.

I don't see how you think this problem can be "singled out and altered reasonably easily"??? The segment of the population being referred to for the majority of the "unlicensed hunters" as we all know is FN. Sad fact is you could video tape a group shooting 6 cow moose at 2 in the morning with pitlamps, only taking the backstraps, and interview them all afterward getting all their names on tape......and NO CHARGES WOULD BE LAID!!!
Why, you may ask? Well lets look at the issue of pitlamping. At one time it WAS illegal, even for the FN.....UNTIL, they decided to charge an FN fellow with pitlamping, a case that they lost.....in effect, making it very publicly LEGAL for ALL FN. Prior to that, there was way less pitlamping because there were some who still obeyed the rule. By charging the fellow and LOSING, therefore making it legal.....they opened the floodgates and made the situation worse.
THAT is why they continue to be hesitant to charge FN's with ANYTHING hunting related....the consequences of losing one of these cases is often much worse than turning a blind eye to whats going on.
It is also why they are purposefully hunting private property in some areas and hanging around to be caught.....they WANT to be charged....they on;y need to win once and private property will no longer mean anything.

JMO
Chris

[HarryToolips]

^^^^sad state we are in...in regards to the pit lamping, its stupid how unsafe it is and our court system doesn't have enough common sense to deal with that...one of us just needs to get almost shot then at least we could bring it forward on social media etc...

[Deaddog]

Well done video. Yet no answers. Six years of studies yet no action. Certainly not bios fault but by the time govt comes up with a solution nature will have fixed it Alas millions of dollars will have been spent to make some “ conservation” orgs and their mouth pieces feel good Good to have study’s but timely action on those studies is needed to have meaningful impact

[mpotzold]

I don't see how you think this problem can be "singled out and altered reasonably easily"??? The segment of the population being referred to for the majority of the "unlicensed hunters" as we all know is FN. Sad fact is you could video tape a group shooting 6 cow moose at 2 in the morning with pitlamps, only taking the backstraps, and interview them all afterward getting all their names on tape......and NO CHARGES WOULD BE LAID!!!
Why, you may ask? Well lets look at the issue of pitlamping. At one time it WAS illegal, even for the FN.....UNTIL, they decided to charge an FN fellow with pitlamping, a case that they lost.....in effect, making it very publicly LEGAL for ALL FN. Prior to that, there was way less pitlamping because there were some who still obeyed the rule. By charging the fellow and LOSING, therefore making it legal.....they opened the floodgates and made the situation worse.
THAT is why they continue to be hesitant to charge FN's with ANYTHING hunting related....the consequences of losing one of these cases is often much worse than turning a blind eye to whats going on.
It is also why they are purposefully hunting private property in some areas and hanging around to be caught.....they WANT to be charged....they on;y need to win once and private property will no longer mean anything.

JMO
Chris

4-3 decision in Supreme Court in 2006 gave FN the right to night hunt.
The decision defies logic.:x Not only is it extremely dangerous but also it is the opposite of FAIR CHASE –LIKE SHOOTING FISH IN THE BARRELL.

The 4 assenting judges were-
Mr. Justice Ian Binnie and Madam Justice Louise Charron, Madam Justice Marie Deschamps and Madam Justice Rosalie Abella
The first & third were appointed by Jean Chretien -the second & 4th by Paul Martin-speaks for itself.

Another view
https://totalrecoil.wordpress.com/2006/12/22/supreme-court-of-canada-night-hunting-judgment/

As I posted before LT & I were hunting north of Germansen about a dozen years ago or so when we heard shots late at night right beside our camp. At daybreak we went to investigate & followed some drag marks for at least a km to a small creek area. A father & son were in the process of field dressing a cow moose in her prime. We approached them & they immediately offered to show us their status cards & told us they were allowed to night hunt.

They were really friendly & offered us some steaks which we politely refused.
The young guy told us that they shot 6 or 7 moose just in the last few days all at night in the same general area.

The guy told us there was nothing to it-drive at night until you see a moose then shine a spotlight & you blind it making it immobile -then you shoot.

We reported it the CO office asap but were told that what they did was not illegal.

While at camp the next day a convoy of hunters drove by coming from Uslika Lake area. They told us that they left because of all the night shooting & hunting.

[SPEYMAN]

There is evidence that the decline is over harvesting. Moose are not going extinct. Stop all harvesting if and when that becomes evident. Are you concerned about the extinction of the moose, or just upset because you can't find one to kill?

Your complaint should be with the Politicians that are entrusted to administer. Our Government representatives should be prepared to change or adjust Laws or Treaties that are proven to be detrimental to the majority.

[willyqbc]

Speyman, its not so simple. Back in the day when our current PM's father was in office...he enshrined the FN rights into our constitution. Those "rights" and laws associated with them CANNOT be changed without a constitional ammendment....which is a vastly complicated process of nationwide referendums etc.

And im not upset that i "cant find a moose", im upset that those who legally take 1% of the moose continually get our opportunities cut back, while those that take 16% can carry on unfettered. Id have to go back and look at the studies to confirm those exact numbers...but you get the idea. And im upset that pandering to special interest groups has removed predator control as a tool used in ungulate management.

Jmo
Chris

[SPEYMAN]

Those laws are that detrimental to others, then they must be changed. This is 2019, laws made years ago are not applicable to this day and age. The Politicians must stop using those excuses and make changes.

[VLD43]

[QUOTE=SPEYMAN;2113413]Those laws are that detrimental to others, then they must be changed. This is 2019, laws made years ago are not applicable to this day and age. The Politicians must stop using those excuses and make changes.[/QUOTE
Speyman
We are talking the Constitution here. While I agree with you that this set of rules or guidelines needs to change, I don't think it would be wise to go there at this time. If you were to open up the Constitution to amend it at this time in our history, I would guarantee you, you wouldn't like the result. With all the political posturing, virtue shaming, and UN Human rights activities being pushed, we would probably all end up in a far worse situation.

[HarryToolips]

Those laws are that detrimental to others, then they must be changed. This is 2019, laws made years ago are not applicable to this day and age. The Politicians must stop using those excuses and make changes.
I agree...maybe we wait for a Federal Conservative government, hopefully by the end of this year, and then we create a petition with this request?

[tigrr]

This year bears and wolves got the calves that I was watching. A set of twins and a single. Grizzly go untouched unless they are caught killing a beef cow. A male cougar can make a dent too in the moose.
The natives shooting the cows, I hope has slowed down due to all the attention that was brought to it. I used to investigate all shooting near me until I ran into a group drunk with loaded guns. Not so much anymore.

[wideopenthrottle]

This year bears and wolves got the calves that I was watching. A set of twins and a single. Grizzly go untouched unless they are caught killing a beef cow. A male cougar can make a dent too in the moose.
The natives shooting the cows, I hope has slowed down due to all the attention that was brought to it. I used to investigate all shooting near me until I ran into a group drunk with loaded guns. Not so much anymore.
so they were in a "spiritual state of mind" for the traditional hunt

[cptnoblivious]

Thanks for posting the video. Fully support a science based approach. :)

[Ohwildwon]

Also, no more spray or monoculture!

[tipper]

We are the problem, too many of us. Too much logging and road access. Predators have a free for all because of humans.
We can't blame the natives or anyone else for what is happening. I'm no enviro hippy but it's pretty clear why the decline is happening.
Can type all we want about the fires or the pinebeetle or the government but in the end we have to realize it's US that have caused the decline..

[338win mag]

We are the problem, too many of us. Too much logging and road access. Predators have a free for all because of humans.
We can't blame the natives or anyone else for what is happening. I'm no enviro hippy but it's pretty clear why the decline is happening.
Can type all we want about the fires or the pinebeetle or the government but in the end we have to realize it's US that have caused the decline..
I disagree, its not "us" ...respectfully.
Its not us who gave the forest companies a free for all, nor is it us who has the authority to reign in the FN and their free for all even at a time when its a conservation concern. I dont believe the government listened to their own biologists regarding dwindling populations.
We didn't cause a massive increase in predators, the government could have (still could) initiate massive wolf culls.

The government has to bear 100% of the responsibility for the problems we share in wildlife management, not the hunters who are lawfully and morally hunting according to the laws of the land, hunters are the only ones putting anything back into wildlife.

There are others responsible, lets just point the finger at the ones who make the laws because, there could be enough game for all of us if it were managed with some competence.

[tipper]

Government Government that's us! Believe what you want but there's nobody to blame but US once again.
I don't have the time to type in the useless babble with my 14 hour work days. Good luck thinking about how you know everything about biology.
PS: I respect you a lot 338winmag. cheers

[scott h]

Great video. Shines a light on the embarrassing problem we have here in BC. Who would have thought that the massive wholesale cutting of millions of acres of bush would hurt an animal that survives on that habitat? Crazy eh? Hopefully after all these fires the last couple of years someone will have the fore site to set aside some large areas and let them regenerate naturally (as well as decommission roads into the same areas).

[Redthies]

so they were in a "spiritual state of mind" for the traditional hunt


Where is the “like” button when you need it?

[stosto]

so they were in a "spiritual state of mind" for the traditional hunt

Hilarious, bigots on here are killing it..

[wideopenthrottle]

Hilarious, bigots on here are killing it..
nice virtue signaling stosto….sad really...……………………... trying to call out drunk idiots shooting at night with my sarcasm hardly could be considered as bigotry....I disagree with this activity that has been allowed by our courts as it is a result of perverting a traditional hunting method that only a lawyer could claim is the same as the tradition....just plain stupid drunk or sober

[BCBRAD]

My own observations, the spraying of Round-Up or similar chemical, on clear cuts has finally come home to roost. In the area around PG it is hard to find any significant source of willow. 25 years ago the spraying was done but not too successful in a lot of cases.
Then about the same time maybe earlier, the allowable harvest of black bear went from 5 spring through fall, to two one spring one fall, then hunters were legislated to take all edible portions. Many hunters just said f'it, as many ,self included would harvest a convenient black bear , pull the hams off and continue on. I rarely take a bear these days as 100 pounds of smokies are a bit more than I can consume in a year, but I do like the ham steaks.
Bottom line , the loss of food and environmental changes are big issues as well as increased predation.

[338win mag]

nice virtue signaling stosto….sad really...……………………... trying to call out drunk idiots shooting at night with my sarcasm hardly could be considered as bigotry....I disagree with this activity that has been allowed by our courts as it is a result of perverting a traditional hunting method that only a lawyer could claim is the same as the tradition....just plain stupid drunk or sober
I agree with you, 100%.
I'm thinking our judicial system has been corrupted, and now they are just making stuff up to fulfill the end. That would be a shame since any countries judicial system and laws, are at the highest level of that countries society...and if they are perceived as on par with lets say mexico's judicial system, then we got a problem.

[Five]

Great video. As others have said, there is no point of moose management if FN can do whatever they want and never need to report.

As others have noted, among cow moose deaths, 15% were due to unlicensed hunters. Only 1% were due to licensed hunters.

Who are these unlicensed hunters?​

[mpotzold]

Great video. As others have said, there is no point of moose management if FN can do whatever they want and never need to report.

As others have noted, among cow moose deaths, 15% were due to unlicensed hunters. Only 1% were due to licensed hunters.

Who are these unlicensed hunters?​

A sixty-four thousand dollar question, no doubt!:mrgreen: