Whitetails taking over Blacktial spots in Region 2: The Video

[caddisguy]

I put together a little video to show what is happening around Chilliwack / Hope and probably other parts of Region 2.

We have been watching this slowly unfold over the last 5 years. At first it was getting the occasional trailcam video (which was fun because I got to break up heated arguments when people were getting grilled / attacked / insulted / etc for claiming to have seen one) to common sightings and now to the point we are seeing more whitetails (in person and on cam) than blacktails.

I am convinced this is having a negative impact on the BT populations in the area. Is it time for a Fraser Valley WT season?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lfi3XEvzubw


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lfi3XEvzubw

[RyoTHC]

I put together a little video to show what is happening around Chilliwack / Hope and probably other parts of Region 2.

We have been watching this slowly unfold over the last 5 years. At first it was getting the occasional trailcam video (which was fun because I got to break up heated arguments when people were getting grilled / attacked / insulted / etc for claiming to have seen one) to common sightings and now to the point we are seeing more whitetails (in person and on cam) than blacktails.

I am convinced this is having a negative impact on the BT populations in the area. Is it time for a Fraser Valley WT season?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lfi3XEvzubw


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lfi3XEvzubw

I'm in a completely different area, this is my third season hunting so I don't have as many years of observation but my first year here I was lucky enough to find a nice little pocket of whitetail which I harvested a buck out of, at the maximum id see 3-4 does at any given time, Id guess there was 4-6 does, whatever fawns they had and any transient bucks.. last year we harvested 5 WT out of the same pocket as a group and at any one time the maximum we saw was 8-9.

Fast forward to this year, I popped through there when I was passing by bear hunting to check things out late one evening, move up onto a little "land bridge" between two bodies of water, and could see upwards of 30 white tail.. quit counting at 20 in the chaos. First I noticed the dozen I spooked tails up running. Then slowly noticed more bedded in the treeline, grazing around the water etc..

I will also note that year one 3-4 mule deer came out of that general area, but not that specific pocket. Year two, only one. And there were more hunting days year two and this year ive yet to see a mule deer within a couple KMs.

[BimmerBob]

It would seem there is some "White"tail privilege going on here, better inform the SJW's...

[Pinewood]

Nice vid man. Thanks for sharing.

[Gateholio]

WTD have been seen in Pemberton and Squamish. I personally believe that BC should have "deer tags" that can be used on either species and there should be a whitetail season in Reg 2.

[caddisguy]

My observation is this.

Blacktail deer inhabit a TINY SLIVER of coastal region in ALL of North America. It's about the tiniest sliver of habitat for ANY mammal on the continent, PERIOD.

We are clear cutting the **** out of their habitat and the more we do so, the more WHITETAILS and WOLVES (we haven't seen or heard any wolves in this valley in 25 years and now we hear them howling are are finding tracks, wolf poop and fawn hooves)

In this area making up multiple MU's there is NO SEASON for WOLVES or WHITETAILS (like they don't even EXIST)

I think the future of blacktails is grim. Nobody on the entire planet cares about them or the sliver of land they exist on except maybe a few hundred people on this entire continent.

I want a wolf season in ALL of region 2 and a WT season and perhaps even a spring WT season is warranted. I'm not a biologist... just a hunter, but I am starting to think I am qualified?

It is my belief that opening up WT's and wolves in ALL of Region 2 is necessary and urgent.

[caddisguy]

I'm getting tons of feedback off this around social media too.

"I saw WT's near the popkum exit, nobody believes me"
"I saw WT's at the Coq summit, but nobody believes me"
"I saw WT's up behind Chilliwack Lake but nobody believes me"
"I saw some up East Harrison last year"

It's done. My video is going to the bios and I am going to reach out to everyone else with sightings but no camera... from Chilliwack, Hope, Harrison, Pemberton to report their sightings as well. The silly bit in the regs about "There's a small population around Herling Island" is more than SLIGHTLY outdated and almost insulting.

It's time to open up wolves and WT in these areas.

[Walking Buffalo]

Geist is a Prophet.

Read his book Mule Deer Country.

[Wild one]

BT are negatively effected by MD through being bred out slowly and now competition from WT( don’t know if they cross). BT on the mainland have been loosing ground slowly for a long time and no one gives a sh!t. Hate to say it but they are a species that in my opinion will one day be restricted to the island populations because of both MD and WT will have a negative impact as well.

Bt are one of my favourite hunts but hate to say it mainland populations will be lost one day

Even if you kill every WT they will still be slowly bred out by MD. BCs attitude towards WT you might see support to try and knock them back(not happening with thick coastal bush) but you will see no support knocking back MD in region 2

Caddisguy you are worried about WT showing up but not a peep about the areas that are now MD or hybrids that were once 100% BT.

Either way the future of deer populations will be different in region 2

[caddisguy]

BT are negatively effected by MD through being bred out slowly and now competition from WT( don’t know if they cross). BT on the mainland have been loosing ground slowly for a long time and no one gives a sh!t. Hate to say it but they are a species that in my opinion will one day be restricted to the island populations because of both MD and WT will have a negative impact as well.

Bt are one of my favourite hunts but hate to say it mainland populations will be lost one day

Even if you kill every WT they will still be slowly bred out by MD. BCs attitude towards WT you might see support to try and knock them back(not happening with thick coastal bush) but you will see no support knocking back MD in region 2

Caddisguy you are worried about WT showing up but not a peep about the areas that are now MD or hybrids that were once 100% BT.

Either way the future of deer populations will be different in region 2

You make a lot of good points here. I think a doe spring season (maybe March to April when they out down in the valley bottoms and more open areas) could effectively knock back WT's, but outside of that you are completely right that nobody is going to put a dent in the populations in thick / steep Region 2 terrain. There would still be a lot of opposition from some hunters who want to see the WT population explode, as well as the general public when they hear about pregnant does being harvested.

And you are bang on about bring bread out by mule deer too. From a wildlife management perspective, they are already considered the same species. Considering the already heavily mixed / overlapping genetics, I can't really think how they could be separated. Needs to have more than 6 inches of dark color on its tail and no bag limit for the white bums with the black ball on the ropy tail? lol

I also wonder if BT's and WT's will commonly cross. My understanding is that is where mule deer came from but my question would be if that is just one hybrid from a rare / fluke occurrence. I can't say that I have seen a ton of WT's in my life. I simply have no been around them or even looked at enough pictures, but some of the deer in these videos (I think I have 8 hours from this spring alone) look a little suspicious to my untrained eye.

I think you've pretty much told it like it is. Things are going to change on Region 2 and it's pretty much impossible to stop. I'd go out on a limb to say this will eventually start happening in Region 1 as well, but that is a much longer timeline.

[steel_ram]

Whitetails have been regularly taken/spotted up Sunday summit off the Hope/Princeton Hwy for over 30 years . As the crow flies, not very far and down hill all the way to the lower mainland. Why would anyone be surprised?

[caddisguy]

Whitetails have been regularly taken/spotted up Sunday summit off the Hope/Princeton Hwy for over 30 years . As the crow flies, not very far and down hill all the way to the lower mainland. Why would anyone be surprised?

Exactly! I do believe that is where they came from. I was surprised there was ever any debate over the existence. Though TBH I was surprised to hear of sightings around Squamish and Pemberton.

[charlie_horse]

I know from some experienced people that white tail have been spotted between whistler and squamish and I swear to this day I bumped 2 white tail out the squamish Valley driving out for blacktail on the road. This was 4 years ago but no one believes me.

[Fella]

I was surprised to see a pair of them up by Murray lake a few years ago although I’m not sure if I should have been...

[Wild one]

Caddisguy I think it’s good to report evidence of WT and maybe even suggest that there should be a WT season do to concern about BT populations even. But I will be completely honest with you there will never be a spring season or any major steps taken to eradicate them from region 2.

[Bugle M In]

My observation is this.

Blacktail deer inhabit a TINY SLIVER of coastal region in ALL of North America. It's about the tiniest sliver of habitat for ANY mammal on the continent, PERIOD.

We are clear cutting the **** out of their habitat and the more we do so, the more WHITETAILS and WOLVES (we haven't seen or heard any wolves in this valley in 25 years and now we hear them howling are are finding tracks, wolf poop and fawn hooves)

In this area making up multiple MU's there is NO SEASON for WOLVES or WHITETAILS (like they don't even EXIST)

I think the future of blacktails is grim. Nobody on the entire planet cares about them or the sliver of land they exist on except maybe a few hundred people on this entire continent.

I want a wolf season in ALL of region 2 and a WT season and perhaps even a spring WT season is warranted. I'm not a biologist... just a hunter, but I am starting to think I am qualified?

It is my belief that opening up WT's and wolves in ALL of Region 2 is necessary and urgent.
This^^^^^
I am really starting to believe that it is logging that is really helping the expansions of WT.
And where there are WT's, wolves soon follow

I know I have seen in the EK, way back in the high country, where you would only see MD, we are
now seeing WT instead.
I have seen cutblocks that are so high up, just below the sub alpine/alpine which now are inhabited by WT's, and we now rarely see a MD in those areas!

WT's just seem to be able to migrate into these areas once logged where they never would have before.
Also, even 20 years after the cutblock happened and trees start to regen, the WT will hang in it all
day long, protected from view and plenty of feed.

I couldn't believe the past season up in the EK where I saw a WT doe.
Almost in Goat Country!
And miles beyond the last MD we saw going up.

[steel_ram]

I would have thought the Fraser would have been a bit of a natural obstacle for those WT's dropping down through Manning Park area's, but still . . . . they are rats.

[Foxton Gundogs]

There have been WT in the upper Fraser for decades. I remember as a kid when a deer tag was a deer tag our neighbor coming home with a 3pt WT from the Popkum Fraser area.

[Fella]

I would have thought the Fraser would have been a bit of a natural obstacle for those WT's dropping down through Manning Park area's, but still . . . . they are rats.

If they’re coming from the similkameen area they wouldn’t have to cross the Fraser

[Ourea]

Thought WT numbers were decimated by the doe season in the interior?
They are now showing up in rainforests of the lower mainland?
They keep expanding?
What?

This is pure nonsense to most that blame game managers for ever single problem to their hunting woes.

[caddisguy]

Thought WT numbers were decimated by the doe season in the interior?
They are now showing up in rainforests of the lower mainland?
They keep expanding?
What?

This is pure nonsense to most that blame game managers for ever single problem to their hunting woes.

If a WT doe season is THAT effective, all the more reason Region 2 needs one LOL

In all seriousness, you're making a good point. All these golden nuggets of fixes hunters have including myself are often contradictory. Some are probably right, some are probably wrong. Most of us are not biologists. Assessment from actual biologists is what is needed. If hunters were allowed to dictate hunting regs, I don't think there would be any open seasons or any permitted hunting methods. Collectively worse than anti's sometimes in that regard.

I do get the feeling there is not a ton of resources though and I suspect as a result, the biologists and game managers focus on what they can, but inevitably fall behind in other areas. The fact the regulations still cite a "small population of WT's around Herrling island, so take caution" or whatever demonstrates several years of lag. If a season isn't warranted, but it is noteworthy enough to inform hunters, it should at least read "There is a significant number of Whitetail deer all over Region 2, hunters are reminded to there is no season".

[scoutlt1]

From a "conservation" standpoint, there is no reason why hunting WT in Region 2 shouldn't be allowed.

I've said for years that there should be a long "either sex" WT season, with a limit of at least two, in R2.

There's no downside to that as far as I'm concerned!

Likely won't stop the invasion, but might slow it down a bit...

[LBM]

Interesting in many different regions of the provience people are worried about declining animal
populations you have one that may be increasing/expanding and you want to shoot them.

[caddisguy]

Interesting in many different regions of the provience people are worried about declining animal
populations you have one that may be increasing/expanding and you want to shoot them.

If the population increasing is at the expense of another population decreasing, then absolutely.

If you have a population of gray squirrels wiping out douglas squirrels and birds, do we cheer on the gray squirrels for increasing their population? If a wolf population is exploding at the expense of ungulates, do we cheer on the wolves? Seems like cheering on snakeheads or bass in the Fraser or the seals exploding to the point they are eating up any little sturgeon they can find. Such increases are not always a good thing. When I am fishing for cutthroat trout in Harrison Lake and I have seals chasing after me and my trout on the 5wt fly rod, I don't think hey cool there's so many more seals in an inland freshwater lake. It makes me think there are some huge problems that we should be mitigating while addressing the cause of those problems.

Blacktail deer inhabit the tiniest sliver of coastal habitat in North America. There are WT deer all over the rest of the continent. There is zero risk to them as a species on a 1000 year timeline. Again I am not a biologist, but I think cheering on any expansion of WT deer populations into blacktail habitat is contrary to biodiversity and essentially cheering on the (probably inevitable) extinction of a rather rare and unique species (and obviously a lot more sensitive species when you look at the population distribution) Simply put, we too here on the coast are worried about the decline of species. Unfortunately, blacktail deer do not have advocates in the tens of millions like other deer species (because they only exist in a tiny area on this entire planet) just a few hundred (or maybe a few thousand) people care about their habitat and their fate.

[LBM]

If the population increasing is at the expense of another population decreasing, then absolutely.

If you have a population of gray squirrels wiping out douglas squirrels and birds, do we cheer on the gray squirrels for increasing their population? If a wolf population is exploding at the expense of ungulates, do we cheer on the wolves? Seems like cheering on snakeheads or bass in the Fraser or the seals exploding to the point they are eating up any little sturgeon they can find. Such increases are not always a good thing. When I am fishing for cutthroat trout in Harrison Lake and I have seals chasing after me and my trout on the 5wt fly rod, I don't think hey cool there's so many more seals in an inland freshwater lake. It makes me think there are some huge problems that we should be mitigating while addressing the cause of those problems.

Blacktail deer inhabit the tiniest sliver of coastal habitat in North America. There are WT deer all over the rest of the continent. There is zero risk to them as a species on a 1000 year timeline. Again I am not a biologist, but I think cheering on any expansion of WT deer populations into blacktail habitat is contrary to biodiversity and essentially cheering on the (probably inevitable) extinction of a rather rare and unique species (and obviously a lot more sensitive species when you look at the population distribution) Simply put, we too here on the coast are worried about the decline of species. Unfortunately, blacktail deer do not have advocates in the tens of millions like other deer species (because they only exist in a tiny area on this entire planet) just a few hundred (or maybe a few thousand) people care about their habitat and their fate.

Huh only exist in a tiny area of the entire planet, sounds like some thing that should be protected.

[saskbooknut]

Whitetails are not the problem. Whitetails are just more adaptive to human habitat alteration and interference.
Human impacts are the problem with changing species distribution.

[Wild one]

Whitetails are not the problem. Whitetails are just more adaptive to human habitat alteration and interference.
Human impacts are the problem with changing species distribution.

This is the correct answer that everyone ignores when it comes to species expanding their range. There are many examples of different species expanding their range and it always comes down to changes to the ecosystem naturally or by man.

In my lifetime I have watched examples of moose, elk, turkey, grizzly, mule deer, and whitetail expand their range in B.C.. Oddly enough many in most cases people cheer about the newly established populations and opportunities that come with it but whitetail are deemed a scourge when they expand in BC

The fact of the matter is things are ever changing and as much as man wants to keep the ecosystem just the way it is and control the species it’s not going to happen

These fluctuations will continue no matter how much people think they can freeze time

[Ourea]

In the event of an apocalyptic happening there will be two creatures that will survive.
Cockroaches and whitetails.

[BeerMan]

^^^^At least Whitetails taste good:smile:

[Wild one]

In the event of an apocalyptic happening there will be two creatures that will survive.
Cockroaches and whitetails.

With their range including both North and South America it’s pretty clear how adaptable they are and elk don’t seem to be far behind in the ungulate family

[RyoTHC]

Interesting in many different regions of the provience people are worried about declining animal
populations you have one that may be increasing/expanding and you want to shoot them.

I'm not from BC so my opinion may differ but the more the merrier ! They are much more fun and satisfying to hunt, they taste drastically better than any mule deer and they breed substantially faster and can keep up with about any amount of hunting pressure as proven by the USA.

[Bugle M In]

I guess the underlying question is:
Are WT "that adaptive" (in the case of this thread of them expanding into R2 and BT country), or,
are WT's just taking advantage of "human caused factors"? (ie: logging).

If WT are that adaptive and will be all over regions where they normally inhabit, than I don't see
a problem of trying to reduce or remove them from BT country.
No different than MD areas, like parts of R3.

Like I said, I have seen WT in areas that you would have only have seen MD, even if the area always held both MD and WT together, there were just some parts of the terrain that MD held
to themselves.
But that's not the case anymore.
WT are not only moving westward to the coast (as per Caddisguy's videos) but they are also moving up in elevation as well. (I have seen that).

So, are human factors the cause? and WT's are just capitalizing.
And at the expense of BT and MD?

[whitlers]

No doubt human factors are to blame for their expansion. Whitetail are more adaptive to these changes. However they are also more aggressive and cross breeding is an issue. Whitetail also have a higher reproductive rate than Blacktails. All this means that they can eventually push out MD and Blacktail from their existing ranges.

[RyoTHC]

No doubt human factors are to blame for their expansion. Whitetail are more adaptive to these changes. However they are also more aggressive and cross breeding is an issue. Whitetail also have a higher reproductive rate than Blacktails. All this means that they can eventually push out MD and Blacktail from their existing ranges.

Sounds kind of like what's going on with another more intelligent species and their existing ranges.

[Wild one]

No doubt human factors are to blame for their expansion. Whitetail are more adaptive to these changes. However they are also more aggressive and cross breeding is an issue. Whitetail also have a higher reproductive rate than Blacktails. All this means that they can eventually push out MD and Blacktail from their existing ranges.

Cross breeding between WT/MD or BT/WT is rare the only issue with cross breeding is between MD/BT where it’s common and the hybrids are not sterile

WT make an impact do to compilation, their ability to adapt, and often produce more offspring

There is many long standing populations that have both MD and WT. The results are the habitat dictates where the higher concentration are of each species with crossover between the two. There are tons of examples across North America showing this. It does not matter what species of ungulate expands into a new area there will be displacement of the ungulate species that are already present. As an example many studies show elk to have the greatest impact on MD populations

Ungulates that share the same habitat impact one another through competition. It can definitely result in changes to which is the dominant species according to what species benefits most from the habitat

Things are not as simple as some try to make it out to be

[Salty]

Whitetails have been expanding all over north America for a long time. All the bios that I've read have predicted this to keep happening. Gotta say though I'm surprised that you've got so many and fairly consistently on camera caddis in pretty much the coastal rainforest. Wonder how long it'll be before a couple swim over to the island :?: AFA being a big problem for black tails..one thing I've noticed about them is if something's bothering them they're pretty quick to pull a Houdini. Here's hoping, there's no doubt they're not the robust survivors that WT are. Nothing is.

[caddisguy]

I love all the different perspectives and considerations in this thread, along with all the reports of sightings. I'm particularly interested in the Squamish ones. Salty google says those deer can swim pretty fast. They're on the coast and it sounds like they are seaworthy, probably on some gulf islands already.

All the feedback here has got me thinking about the difference between WT's and BT's and the differences in how they use their habitat. Seems like BT's are homebodies that play the best hide and seek in their homes but have trouble adapting to change, whereas WT's are nomads that can adapt on the fly and can work with less cover.

We've carved out all these routes and pockets so things like WT's and wolves can move around and do what they do best, while BT's struggle with less hide and seek, more pressure from the preds and competition from the WT's, let alone interbreeding with MD's.

I can't say I like what the outcome is going to be... and I still want to establish an army with automatic weapons, RPG's and the whole works to defend 100-200km inland. I have a secret crush on BT deer and my instinct is to protect them even if it is futile... as long as they have one patch of timber to hide in, my instinct is to guard them. I'll always be biased I guess. Don't expect a logical response from me on this one :) It is sad that blacktail deer will be extinct. I am not sure what the timeline is, but I would guess a few hundred years they will be pretty much killed off and breaded out.

[caddisguy]

Cross breeding between WT/MD or BT/WT is rare the only issue with cross breeding is between MD/BT where it’s common and the hybrids are not sterile

My understanding is that MD's were a product of WT and BT deer interbreeding. I would guess that was a fluke, but it would seem non-sterile offspring did occur. I imagine it could happen again. Maybe in a few decades we'll have another type of deer tag... the "straight beam spike-fork black-mule" or something. BT's and WT's are overlapping like never-in-recent-history before. Some weird stuff is going to happen. Looks like it already is.

[saskbooknut]

You would be hard pressed to tell anyone on the Gulf Islands or in Victoria, Nanaimo etc. that Blacktail deer are going extinct.

[Wild one]

My understanding is that MD's were a product of WT and BT deer interbreeding. I would guess that was a fluke, but it would seem non-sterile offspring did occur. I imagine it could happen again. Maybe in a few decades we'll have another type of deer tag... the "straight beam spike-fork black-mule" or something. BT's and WT's are overlapping like never-in-recent-history before. Some weird stuff is going to happen. Looks like it already is.

I have read the theory you are talking about and also the theory that BT are the original deer and both MD and WT are just generic mutations of the original BT. There is a few other theories about the relationship of North America’s deer species but I am still on my first cup of coffee and can’t remember them right now

I actually had to look into WT/BT hybrid possibilities when you posted this thread because I could not remember if it was much of an issue. The information I could find was out of Washington and the verdict was it was the same situation as WT/MD hybrids it happens but not often. The offspring that they have found were also sterile

Maybe once I have some more coffee I will remember more lol

[wideopenthrottle]

saw some WT (3) mixed in with mulies (~10) on a hillside near canim lake...when we disturbed them the mulies hopped up over the hill but the WT's ran to the timber/creek

[Bugle M In]

I have seen a couple occasion where WT/MD were hanging out together.
Both in the same area around Cache Creek and a few years apart.
One time, it was 2 WT does and 4 MD Does all bedded together. (side by side)

Other time it was 2x 2point bucks.
1 was WT and other MD and they spent the whole day together (spotted them several times that day)
And another group saw them together on a different day.

So, they do seem to intermingle.
Maybe in some areas they adapt to doing this while other areas they avoid each other?
Thus the mutations and hybrids in only a few areas??

[Walking Buffalo]

I have read the theory you are talking about and also the theory that BT are the original deer and both MD and WT are just generic mutations of the original BT. There is a few other theories about the relationship of North America’s deer species but I am still on my first cup of coffee and can’t remember them right now

I actually had to look into WT/BT hybrid possibilities when you posted this thread because I could not remember if it was much of an issue. The information I could find was out of Washington and the verdict was it was the same situation as WT/MD hybrids it happens but not often. The offspring that they have found were also sterile

Maybe once I have some more coffee I will remember more lol

Hybrids are not always sterile, but there is a decrease in fertility within these offspring.
Even when fertile hybrids survive the lower survival rates due to compromised predator escape physiology...
Reduced reproductive abilities of hybrid deer is still one of the main causes of WT dominance over Mule Deer.


Who's your Daddy?
It's almost always the WT.

WT deer not only outcompete and potentially replace MD by simply having higher reproductive rates (greater number of twins and triplets),
MD end up with even lower reproductive rates where hybridization occurs as it is female MD that are producing the majority of these young *******s.


Humankind has known and followed this strategy in war for eons.
If you can't kill 'em, F' em.

[caddisguy]

saw some WT (3) mixed in with mulies (~10) on a hillside near canim lake...when we disturbed them the mulies hopped up over the hill but the WT's ran to the timber/creek

And the WT's don't seem to stop to look back until they are far away or in cover, if at all. BT's often won't even run if they don't think you have seen them, or sometimes even when you obviously have. When they do run, they pretty much always look back within 50-70 yards. Mule deer seem similar in that regard. Different strategies for sure. I can see how the WT method works better in semi-open areas.

[Bubbacanuck]

A region 2 WT season would be awesome!!

[RyoTHC]

A region 2 WT season would be awesome!!

Besides the fact the are more prolific under pressure and that'll just increase the pace they rape and pillage the BT.

[J-F]

In the event of an apocalyptic happening there will be two creatures that will survive.
Cockroaches and whitetails.

And coyotes!

[Bubbacanuck]

Besides the fact the are more prolific under pressure and that'll just increase the pace they rape and pillage the BT.

So leave the population of WT's alone so they can breed with no hunting pressure? I don't see the logic

[RyoTHC]

So leave the population of WT's alone so they can breed with no hunting pressure? I don't see the logic

I was just pointing out that it's a damned If you do, damned if you dont situation. I've personally harvested several white tail does in the last few years and will continue to do so because they are tasty ^^

[Bubbacanuck]

I was just pointing out that it's a damned If you do, damned if you dont situation. I've personally harvested several white tail does in the last few years and will continue to do so because they are tasty ^^

Makes sense. I am the same. If the season is legal for antlerless, I will have no issue harvesting a doe. I have never harvested a whitetail yet, but I plan to this year.

[Wild one]

Hybrids are not always sterile, but there is a decrease in fertility within these offspring.
Even when fertile hybrids survive the lower survival rates due to compromised predator escape physiology...
Reduced reproductive abilities of hybrid deer is still one of the main causes of WT dominance over Mule Deer.


Who's your Daddy?
It's almost always the WT.

WT deer not only outcompete and potentially replace MD by simply having higher reproductive rates (greater number of twins and triplets),
MD end up with even lower reproductive rates where hybridization occurs as it is female MD that are producing the majority of these young *******s.


Humankind has known and followed this strategy in war for eons.
If you can't kill 'em, F' em.

Went digging some more after your post and from what I found hybrid bucks are sterile but not all hybrid does are sterile in MD/WT hybrids. Could not find if it’s the same with BT/WT but assume the odds are it is.

Not seeing much on BT/WT hybrids or interaction between the 2. Do you know of any in-depth studies on it?

[Bugle M In]

^^^^I think finding anything between WT and BT interaction is actually rare because of the terrain
etc. where BT are found compared to WT.
What Caddisguy is basically showing is something "new".
Maybe even possibly the first of it's kind.
After all, we never saw WT close to the coast here where BT are found.
But now it is starting to happen.

Give it a few years and there will be some useless study about that in the works.

[Wild one]

^^^^I think finding anything between WT and BT interaction is actually rare because of the terrain
etc. where BT are found compared to WT.
What Caddisguy is basically showing is something "new".
Maybe even possibly the first of it's kind.
After all, we never saw WT close to the coast here where BT are found.
But now it is starting to happen.

Give it a few years and there will be some useless study about that in the works.

Found info out of Washington it’s just limited

[dracb]

I recall some genetic research that indicated mule deer are the consequence of a much earlier intersection of whitetail and blacktail populations.

[Mosin]

I recall some genetic research that indicated mule deer are the consequence of a much earlier intersection of whitetail and blacktail populations.

I'm not questioning what you read but why do you suppose the antlers stayed more bt?

[dracb]

not the vaguest idea, but Wiki comments "Mule deer apparently evolved (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolved) from the black-tailed deer.[9] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mule_deer#cite_note-DeerEvolution-9) Despite this, the mtDNA (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MtDNA) of the white-tailed deer and mule deer are similar, but differ from that of the black-tailed deer.[9] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mule_deer#cite_note-DeerEvolution-9) This may be the result of introgression (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Introgression)",

Introgression differs from simple hybridization. Introgression results in a complex mixture of parental genes, while simple hybridization results in a more uniform mixture, which in the first generation will be an even mix of two parental species.

[Steeleco]

I was surprised to see a pair of them up by Murray lake a few years ago although I’m not sure if I should have been...

I can show you a spot where they cross the main road in on a regular basis. I've seen WTD 5km from Boston bar on one of the FSR's a few times

[BCHunterTV]

herrling island not far from his area has wt.... no season

[caddisguy]

herrling island not far from his area has wt.... no season

30km one cam 40km on another as the crow flies from there and quite a few mountain ranges in the way if you go that route, within "reach" I'd guess... they're being sighted in in Skagit/Jones/Harrison/Agassiz/Chilliwack on a regular basis (verified, tons of messages from Hope to Abby) reports coming in out of Squamish/Pemberton and a few Islanders (not personally verified but I don't doubt it off the descriptions) Draw a 30-40km circle and combine that with regular sightings it seems like a lot... Washington and Oregon already has them up to the coast.

Seems that (what used to be mythical) Herrling Island herd is getting darn big and spread out. I'm skeptical that is where they are flooding in from, but your thoughts on it carry a lot of weight with me on why no season. My instinct was napalm. Some guys want WT but to me it's like bass in the fraser

[saskbooknut]

I think you are swimming against a tide, and can't win.
Whitetails are survivors - and will occupy available habitat, evading attempts at control if someone is so foolish to try.
Tell me how well attempts to control Blacktail deer in Oak Bay are? If you had the means, the political blowback would defeat you.

[walks with deer]

are you guys saying all the deer in that video are whitetails?

[RyoTHC]

are you guys saying all the deer in that video are whitetails?

Second and fourth deer definitely look nothing like white tail I've ever seen and I'm from the east coast where it's swarming with the delicious cockroaches.

Edit* I'm assuming they are included to show the contrast between the black tail and the obvious white tail does ?

[walks with deer]

most those deer are blacktails and some are blacktail mule deer hybrids..
theres is a couple deer that look whitetail for sure but even the doe with fawns i am not convinced.

[Mosin]

He is not saying all the deer in the video are whitetail, he is simply stating he has observed whitetail deer showimg up where they normally weren't known to be. I see bt and wt in that video.

[walks with deer]

a spring season on whitetail does would reduce the blacktail popultion.

[Mosin]

a spring season on whitetail does would reduce the blacktail popultion.

How? I kind of agree though, I guess blacktail does would be mistaken for whitetail does?This raises another question in my mind...what percentage of the hunters here can really truely differentiate between the 2 species.

[walks with deer]

hell half the reason you have to leave the tail on the deer rule came into affect due to muley does getting wacked as whiteys.

[Mosin]

hell half the reason you have to leave the tail on the deer rule came into affect due to muley does getting wacked as whiteys.

I wonder what percentage was "mistaken" versus "hey I'll just say I thought was a wt if I get came checked?"

[walks with deer]

thats the real issue on that.

many are that out to lunch too

[walks with deer]

the skagit-chilliwack valley is long and borders manning park and the cascade mountains..there are elk moose mule deer blacktail and whitetail in there...
goat,cougar,grizzly...the sad part is many animals have been shot there due to over zealous hunters and some blaten poaching... in the 80-sand90s there was a full time co for those two valleys alone...(they used to call him blakey)

[caddisguy]

are you guys saying all the deer in that video are whitetails?

No not at all. They're included to show WT's and BT's on the same cams. My favorite is the 5X5 blacktail buck on the same cam as the WT doe with the new fawns. Man I'd love to find that guy. I think I have one of his sheds.

You (and some others) have made a really good point about the possibility of a WT doe season creating issues of mistaken ID.

[dracb]

Some guys want WT but to me it's like bass in the fraser

And a few years back my son caught a bass in the Fraser.

[caddisguy]

And a few years back my son caught a bass in the Fraser.

No way! Yikes!! I just pulled that as a theoretical example out of thin air. I can see it though. There have been a lot of guys releasing bass in near by ponds, very close to the Fraser and drainages that connect to the Fraser.

[Bugle M In]

And a few years back my son caught a bass in the Fraser.

:shock:……..…………:confused:..................:shock:

[walks with deer]

head out to pitt meadows airport the sloughs that meet the fraser there are sadly full of bass also seen one caught in the stave.

[RyoTHC]

Hey, bass are atleast fun to catch right !? Between that pike and carp that's all I had to fish for growing up until I could drive haha

[walks with deer]

caddis guy thanks for sharing..

whitetail do ever increase there range..
the biggest effect on other speceis is a stable food source for predators.. just like elk in moose country..

[walks with deer]

ps caddisguy hope you have shared with region 2 biologist.

[Fella]

No way! Yikes!! I just pulled that as a theoretical example out of thin air. I can see it though. There have been a lot of guys releasing bass in near by ponds, very close to the Fraser and drainages that connect to the Fraser.

cultus has em. I don’t think it would be a stretch to have them make their way from there into the vedder and then the fraser

[Bugle M In]

Have seen lakes in the past with perch etc in them.
Definitely ruined some trophy rainbow trout lakes.
(wish those folks from back east and down south would stay there and stop doing it)

Sorry for going off topic, but does show how one species can displace or take down another one.

[RyoTHC]

Have seen lakes in the past with perch etc in them.
Definitely ruined some trophy rainbow trout lakes.
(wish those folks from back east and down south would stay there and stop doing it)

Sorry for going off topic, but does show how one species can displace or take down another one.

I guess one plus side is yellow perch taste amazing right ? I can't wait for my Ontario trip to catch and eat dozens ;)

[Bugle M In]

I guess one plus side is yellow perch taste amazing right ? I can't wait for my Ontario trip to catch and eat dozens ;)

It would make sense seeing that people do take liberties here to maybe designate the odd lake in
southern parts of bc for species like perch/bass.

But than again I think that is considered "invasive species".
Worse is that it wouldn't stop some from taking some from one lake and putting them elsewhere.
Some folks cant help themselves I guess?

[RyoTHC]

It would make sense seeing that people do take liberties here to maybe designate the odd lake in
southern parts of bc for species like perch/bass.

But than again I think that is considered "invasive species".
Worse is that it wouldn't stop some from taking some from one lake and putting them elsewhere.
Some folks cant help themselves I guess?

My reply was tongue in cheek, I don't think anything should be put into ecosystems it wasn't naturally in.

BUT I'd rather it be bass and perch which are completely edible and enjoyable than something like Asian carp, snake head, goby or any of those other fun things.

IF something is going to out compete our food sources we should atleast see the silver lining if it's something edible and delicious like white tail and perch.

[Bugle M In]

Same could be said for wild boar:p (can outbreed wolves!)

Anyways, cant imagine hunting WT down near the LM/
So much private property too!
And a lot of them are tree hugger I suspect, so hard to get permission??

[caddisguy]

My wife's friend in Mission just posted up pictures of deer in her backyard on Facebook. Guess what? Whitetails! :)

You know when random people deep in the LML start posting pictures "check out these deer in my backyard" and they're WT's that their numbers are getting high.

Sounds like we'll be seeing them around in Langley pretty soon.

[BeerMan]

It's funny, I was just coming off the KVR into Brookmere Sunday afternoon and had 3 blacktails right beside the truck. Wife got pics, not spooked at all. 2 bucks with velvet nubs and a doe. Made me think about this thread. Seems all 3 species are coexisting no problem up there.

[Bugle M In]

It's funny, I was just coming off the KVR into Brookmere Sunday afternoon and had 3 blacktails right beside the truck. Wife got pics, not spooked at all. 2 bucks with velvet nubs and a doe. Made me think about this thread. Seems all 3 species are coexisting no problem up there.

They can for a time, until the WT explode in population in a specific area.
Then it doesn't work to well.
I still think logging is a big reason as to why WT have been able to expand.
Our landscape has changed big time in the last 25 years or so with all the cutblocks (some areas are more like miles of timber removed).
Allows WT to inhabit areas they never would have.
Just look at the terrain BT live in when it is in it's natural state, no WT would use it.
But that is no longer the case.
Another example of how humans can change things by what we do.
(Not blaming anyone who logs/forestry etc, but just a fact of "how it is")

[BeerMan]

I have seen whitetail does and bucks in that area over the years. I found it odd to see the Blacktail there. The Muleys we have seen so far this year look Big and Healthey. Thats my short cut to my spring time fishin lakes. Happy with what I have seen so far this year, animal wise. Gives me Hope.

[rollingrock]

I have been told by local FN residents in PoCo there are WTs in PoCo area. I've never seen one, but I am not surprised.

[Redthies]

I didn’t read all the pages of this thread, but I may have the westernmost sighting so far. I’m on 168th street in South Surrey overlooking the ocean, and my Weimaraner just bounced some deer on the lower half of my acreage. I was about 20 yards away and yup, you guessed it... whitetail! Lord knows I’ve seen the back side of enough of those things trying to get one into my freezer. 100% positive ID on whitetail in Whiterock! (well, a three minute drive from Whiterock).

[northernbc]

I saw a huge white tail buck in Langley in about 1986 it had just killed a huge mule deer buck. On the backroads from the ferry to port kells

[sames14]

I worked up at the Corrections camp located at the end of Allouette Lake. We used to drive in from Stave Lake and i can recall seeing WTD in there way back in the mid 90's.

[Redthies]

I saw a huge white tail buck in Langley in about 1986 it had just killed a huge mule deer buck. On the backroads from the ferry to port kells

Was the mule deer in season? Did the WT have a tag?

[Rieber]

Ahhh, soon we will dine on MU-2 Whitetail

[Ajsawden]

Was the mule deer in season? Did the WT have a tag?
Almost spat my coffee out!

[oldrookie]

interesting.... new hunter here. if i saw a decent buck in region 2 fraser valley area i would have taken it. Never thinking it could be a whitetail.

[Wild one]

interesting.... new hunter here. if i saw a decent buck in region 2 fraser valley area i would have taken it. Never thinking it could be a whitetail.

Well be careful and be sure to identify your target and read the regs to be sure what is open before it’s time to pull the trigger. If not you are going to find your in trouble one day

Lots of species can be found where people don’t think they belong and expand their ranges all the time

[RyoTHC]

Well be careful and be sure to identify your target and read the regs to be sure what is open before it’s time to pull the trigger. If not you are going to find your in trouble one day

Lots of species can be found where people don’t think they belong and expand their ranges all the time

I can attest to that ! I have taken 3 nice big colour phase black bears out of one of my preferred hunting spots, hunted it for 3 bear seasons in a row and ran into lots of black bears...

well this season we started to bump into grizzlys in the same area! At the right size and angle they don’t look different enough from the Colour phase blacks, and without spending extra time glassing, I could see how a mistake could be made.

back to the topic at hand ... BC needs a WT doe season open across the entire province from the 10th-31 of October.
we shouldn’t care if the white tail numbers drop and dwindle, they are invasive and out compete Mulies and black tails like vermin, now that isn’t to take away from them as they are fun to hunt and delicious, but protecting their numbers in any way, anywhere in the province is going to have long term detrimental effects on the native deer populations.

[Islandeer]

Hmmm, whitetails are a native species. Loss of habitat, disease and ticks are a far greater threat to mule deer than whitetails will ever be. Though I do support controlling whitetail numbers with continued doe seasons.

[walks with deer]

whitetails go very nocturnal with pressure.

first light and last light are key to hunter success..or hunting bedding zones (the thick stuff real slow.)

[caddisguy]

interesting.... new hunter here. if i saw a decent buck in region 2 fraser valley area i would have taken it. Never thinking it could be a whitetail.

You're not alone. It's one my motivations for getting the word out. It definitely wouldn't be a happy experience to go from the excitement of getting a buck, just to walk up on it and realize it wasn't legal.

Another motivation was seeing other threads where hunters claimed to have seen WT's and would get absolutely grilled by other hunters, that there's no WT's in the Fraser Valley, that they don't know how to ID deer and how they probably see sasquatches too. Although that probably goes hand in hand with others that would shoot any buck. I like your honesty. I guarantee a lot of people have thought the same way (myself included) that one could essentially "ID" a buck just by where they found it. Maybe Region 1 can still say that... for now :)

For fun, I posted up another video in this thread recently that shows two bucks with pretty much identical head gear... kind of shows how easily things can get confusing. Say you see a 3pt BT on your came a bunch of times... then you are creeping around there and bump into a buck with the same antler configuration. BOOM! ... "Uh oh ... heart sinks"

http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/showthread.php?155338-Thoughts-on-this-cougar

To make things even more confusing, some WT / BT / BT-Mule hybrid deer are starting to look mixed. I really think they are successfully interbreeding.

Anyway, it is 100% video/photo confirmed WT's are common around Hope, Chilliwack and Mission (in back yards to boot) No shortage of reports for Harrison either, but no video to show. I don't doubt it for a second though.

I might post up a few more vids when I have more time over the winter. I probably have 30+ hours of WT vids this year and some are actually really funny and weird :)

[Pauly]

You're not alone. It's one my motivations for getting the word out. It definitely wouldn't be a happy experience to go from the excitement of getting a buck, just to walk up on it and realize it wasn't legal.

Another motivation was seeing other threads where hunters claimed to have seen WT's and would get absolutely grilled by other hunters, that there's no WT's in the Fraser Valley, that they don't know how to ID deer and how they probably see sasquatches too. Although that probably goes hand in hand with others that would shoot any buck. I like your honesty. I guarantee a lot of people have thought the same way (myself included) that one could essentially "ID" a buck just by where they found it. Maybe Region 1 can still say that... for now :)

For fun, I posted up another video in this thread recently that shows two bucks with pretty much identical head gear... kind of shows how easily things can get confusing. Say you see a 3pt BT on your came a bunch of times... then you are creeping around there and bump into a buck with the same antler configuration. BOOM! ... "Uh oh ... heart sinks"

http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/showthread.php?155338-Thoughts-on-this-cougar

To make things even more confusing, some WT / BT / BT-Mule hybrid deer are starting to look mixed. I really think they are successfully interbreeding.

Anyway, it is 100% video/photo confirmed WT's are common around Hope, Chilliwack and Mission (in back yards to boot) No shortage of reports for Harrison either, but no video to show. I don't doubt it for a second though.

I might post up a few more vids when I have more time over the winter. I probably have 30+ hours of WT vids this year and some are actually really funny and weird :)
I have family in van and every year we meet them up at Murray lake. Went up into the fire behind the lake last year for a look and saw 2 whitetail does run across the road in front of us

[Bugle M In]

^^^^^^
Never understood why some were getting grilled either back in the day on hbc for that as well.
I know where I hunt MD, I couldn't believe my eyes the 1st time I saw a WT 2pt walking right beside a MD 2pt.
Never thought they were there or would be...ever.

Now, when one takes the time to read up on WT and the fact that although they are smaller in size, they are more aggressive and one can
see that they could and do overrun areas where MD are.
They are an older species as well.
Makes me wonder how MD even had a chance to begin with???

And the other thing I have seen, just to add to this thread, is I have seen first hand WT in some very high back country as well now.
Not quite alpine yet, but damn close!!!
And I believe it is due to the logging that happens so far back and high up now.
If those string of cut blocks weren't there, I doubt the WT would have moved up in there....ever.

Sure doesn't help the future of MD either.
Not only has it brought the WT...but wolves as well.
Talk about heaving the "squeeze on"!

[DannyO]

I sat in the other night and the wife was watching the tv show “love it or list it” and the people are being shown a house 25 minutes outside of Vancouver..sooo possibly Mission? Langley?
and in the back yard of this property are two whitetail deer. Then the wife had to listen to a rant about whitetail deer in region 2 ��

[Bugle M In]

I sat in the other night and the wife was watching the tv show “love it or list it” and the people are being shown a house 25 minutes outside of Vancouver..sooo possibly Mission? Langley?
and in the back yard of this property are two whitetail deer. Then the wife had to listen to a rant about whitetail deer in region 2 ��

:mrgreen:.………………………..lol.