View Full Version : using a firearm for defense in the bush
okanagan hiker
09-21-2007, 06:35 PM
I have a question about the use of a firearm for defense in the bush -
As I understand these regulations, I can, in an area open to the discharge of firearms, carry a loaded firearm for self defense ( I am mostly thinking about my hiking and scouting missions in the summer, outside of hunting season ). But it seems that once I am back at camp, and the weapon is "stored", that it must be unloaded. Under these conditions, one cannot have a loaded weapon in a camp. ( I am for the moment ignoring the safety issues, and focusing on the legalities ). This would mean that should a bear or cougar come visiting, you then need to load up, which may take more time than you have.
Am I reading this right, and is this the folks on here carry and "store" their firearms when hunting / scouting / taking your gun for a walk?
Storage, Display, Transportation and Handling of Firearms by Individuals Regulations
STORAGE OF NON-RESTRICTED FIREARMS
5. (1) An individual may store a non-restricted firearm only if
(a) it is unloaded;
(b) it is
(i) rendered inoperable by means of a secure locking device,
(ii) rendered inoperable by the removal of the bolt or bolt-carrier, or
(iii) stored in a container, receptacle or room that is kept securely locked and that is constructed so that it cannot readily be broken open or into; and
(c) it is not readily accessible to ammunition, unless the ammunition is stored, together with or separately from the firearm, in a container or receptacle that is kept securely locked and that is constructed so that it cannot readily be broken open or into.
(2) Paragraph (1)(b) does not apply to any individual who stores a non-restricted firearm temporarily if the individual reasonably requires it for the control of predators or other animals in a place where it may be discharged in accordance with all applicable Acts of Parliament and of the legislature of a province, regulations made under such Acts, and municipal by-laws.
(3) Paragraphs (1)(b) and (c) do not apply to an individual who stores a non-restricted firearm in a location that is in a remote wilderness area that is not subject to any visible or otherwise reasonably ascertainable use incompatible with hunting.
Storage, Display, Transportation and Handling of Firearms by Individuals Regulations
HANDLING OF FIREARMS
15. An individual may load a firearm or handle a loaded firearm only in a place where the firearm may be discharged in accordance with all applicable Acts of Parliament and of the legislature of a province, regulations made under such Acts, and municipal by-laws.
Thanks in advance for your advice
Maybe l am wrong, but your pal allows you to legally have in your possession your firearm and if your in a area you can legally discharge it, whats the problem with having your firearm handy when your in camp?
Gateholio
09-21-2007, 07:53 PM
Unless you leave camp and it is unattended, it is "in use" and storage laws do not apply.
(2) Paragraph (1)(b) does not apply to any individual who stores a non-restricted firearm temporarily if the individual reasonably requires it for the control of predators or other animals in a place where it may be discharged
Note that it does say 1 (b)........not 1 (a) ;)
They want the Firearm "unloaded" but not "locked or cased etc. if "Protection" is warranted.
We ran into this up North........I can assure you some Co's will take issue to a Loaded firearm left leaning against a tree in camp...whether you are present or not.
However load it up and keep it slung on your back...dillemma solved:-P
kgriz
09-21-2007, 08:44 PM
I'm not quoting the firearms act etc. but I'm pretty sure that previously my friends and I looked this up and a firearm maybe left unattended in a camp in a "remote wilderness setting". The quickest way to get the real answer is to email the NFA.
Gateholio
09-21-2007, 08:55 PM
We ran into this up North........I can assure you some Co's will take issue to a Loaded firearm left leaning against a tree in camp...whether you are present or not.
:-P
Whether they take issue wiht it or not, there is no law against having a loaded firearm leaning against a tree, 24/7 (attended) in an area that it is legal to discharge firearms.
This is no different that stopping for lunch and leaving your loaded firearm leaning against a tree.
Assuming you are sober, of course.;-)
okanagan hiker
09-21-2007, 08:57 PM
Quote:
(2) Paragraph (1)(b) does not apply to any individual who stores a non-restricted firearm temporarily if the individual reasonably requires it for the control of predators or other animals in a place where it may be discharged
Note that it does say 1 (b)........not 1 (a) :wink:
They want the Firearm "unloaded" but not "locked or cased etc. if "Protection" is warranted.
We ran into this up North........I can assure you some Co's will take issue to a Loaded firearm left leaning against a tree in camp...whether you are present or not.
However load it up and keep it slung on your back...dillemma solved:razz:
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I am not planning to, and would NOT, leave a loaded firearm unattended... but also I do not want to be fumbling about loading a shotgun when a bear strolls into camp. I do solo camping and hiking.
It seems to boil down to what constitutes " storing " a firearm!
May I ask what happened to you... did you have CO's come into camp and take issue with guns in camp?
Thanks all for your replies.
okanagan hiker
09-21-2007, 09:01 PM
Whether they take issue wiht it or not, there is no law against having a loaded firearm leaning against a tree, 24/7 (attended) in an area that it is legal to discharge firearms.
This is no different that stopping for lunch and leaving your loaded firearm leaning against a tree.
Assuming you are sober, of course.;-)
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I agree... this is what "common sense" tells me... but I was worried about what the Police/CO's policy is... how they interpet the regs.
okanagan hiker
09-21-2007, 09:08 PM
also, I have to add... I am curious about what experiences HBC members may have had out of hunting season... carrying a firearm when scouting and hiking... have any been hassled? thanks
May I ask what happened to you... did you have CO's come into camp and take issue with guns in camp?
Yes.........they(rcmp) took/seized my Buds Rifle....for "Improper storage":rolleyes:
Sure he was never charged and did get his rifle back..eventually.
It was a Huge pain in the A$$ that took 4 months.... :x
One more Plus for the Handgun...loaded and holstered it's always on your person :-P;)
Gateholio
09-21-2007, 09:20 PM
also, I have to add... I am curious about what experiences HBC members may have had out of hunting season... carrying a firearm when scouting and hiking... have any been hassled? thanks
I've never been "hassled" by a Co for ANYTHING, but then again, they dont' have any reason to, since I am pretty law abiding anyway...
The closest I got to 'hassle' was going througha CO/RCMP roadblock, they wanted to see my rifle. It was unloaded, of course, but it had a sling with shell loops in it, and 4 rounds of ammunition. The RCMP officer told me that it wasn't very smart to have ammo attached to the rifle, in case I left the vehicle unattended, and it was broken into.
I asked "is it illegal?" (knowing full well it was not)
He responded "no"
I asked him what was the difference between 4 rounds on the rifle and a box of ammo in the glove box,in the event of a break in and he didn't really have an answer. This was years ago....
Most CO's poses common sense, and if they dont there is still the law. What can you be charged with leaning a loaded gun against a tree while you have lunch? Nothing. Same as in camp.
okanagan hiker
09-21-2007, 09:23 PM
Yes.........they(rcmp) took/seized my Buds Rifle....for "Improper storage":rolleyes:
Sure he was never charged and did get his rifle back..eventually.
It was a Huge pain in the A$$ that took 4 months.... :x
One more Plus for the Handgun...loaded and holstered it's always on your person :-P;)
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see... this is EXACTLY what I want to avoid... I assume he had a loaded rifle in camp? If it was illegal, wouldn't he have been actually charged? I am willing to bet that law enforcement agencies aren't sure about the regulations either.... it seems kind of grey... but the answers so far seem to confirm my interpetation... that as long as its in a legal shooting area, and I haven't left it unattended ( "stored " it ) that I can keep it loaded.
I just don't want to break any laws doing what common sense tells me.
okanagan hiker
09-21-2007, 09:30 PM
I've never been "hassled" by a Co for ANYTHING, but then again, they dont' have any reason to, since I am pretty law abiding anyway...
The closest I got to 'hassle' was going througha CO/RCMP roadblock, they wanted to see my rifle. It was unloaded, of course, but it had a sling with shell loops in it, and 4 rounds of ammunition. The RCMP officer told me that it wasn't very smart to have ammo attached to the rifle, in case I left the vehicle unattended, and it was broken into.
I asked "is it illegal?" (knowing full well it was not)
He responded "no"
I asked him what was the difference between 4 rounds on the rifle and a box of ammo in the glove box,in the event of a break in and he didn't really have an answer. This was years ago....
Most CO's poses common sense, and if they dont there is still the law. What can you be charged with leaning a loaded gun against a tree while you have lunch? Nothing. Same as in camp.
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perhaps 'hassled" was too strong a word... I was also thinking about interactions with civilian non-hunters... I myself have been hiking and met other hikers and when they noticed my rifle all I got were polite curious questions... but I have gone on other trail/hiking websites and seen messages from hikers about " 4 Stupid Yahoos with guns.. firing them off... finally asked them what they were shooting at... that hunting season was not on in this area.. and that this was a Public Area and, thus, NO DISCHARGE OF FIREARMS ALLOWED. The stupid yahoos packed up and left... but not after ruining everyone's beautiful morning" ( this happened in a legal shooting area... near Eaton Lake )
DavidGordon
09-21-2007, 09:40 PM
Rules aside the public that you meet on the trail will not look kindly on you and your gun.
We have a mossberg pump action shot gun for hiking and the canoe.
It is truely an ugly gun. The black plastic stock makes it look like it is straight out of an action movie but it is a good gun, cheap, and reliable. The gun has been to the bottom of one river and survived one ocean dunking.
It goes without saying that I am not the prettiest guy on the trail and after a few days on the trail I do look a little scary. Having the 'assult' looking weapon does not help.
My solution has been to have my wife carry it. A women with a gun seems to put other hikers at ease, she even gets the odd polite question.
The gun rides on the back of my wife's pack so all I have to do is reach out and pull when I want it. My wife keeps joking that she is going to start making pink gun bags.
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see... this is EXACTLY what I want to avoid... I assume he had a loaded rifle in camp? If it was illegal, wouldn't he have been actually charged?
Nope not loaded...unloaded and hidden under his cot. Had downed moose to go & retrive...didn't need everybody packing rifles.
Who'da thought that a Walltent 30 Miles North of Mckenzie isn't a "Wilderness setting" where supposedly storage laws don't apply ? :roll:
Like I said in the end he was not charged...just pointing out that what seems clear to you and me may not or is not always the way the "Lawman" will see it....too many Ghey rules :???:
okanagan hiker
09-21-2007, 09:59 PM
Rules aside the public that you meet on the trail will not look kindly on you and your gun.
so far, for me it has been polite, I am happy to say
We have a mossberg pump action shot gun for hiking and the canoe.
It is truely an ugly gun. The black plastic stock makes it look like it is straight out of an action movie but it is a good gun, cheap, and reliable. The gun has been to the bottom of one river and survived one ocean dunking.
This it what I am looking at getting... I have read good things about them
The gun rides on the back of my wife's pack so all I have to do is reach out and pull when I want it. My wife keeps joking that she is going to start making pink gun bags.
Do you keep it loaded? ( where legal, of course )
Do you keep it loaded? ( where legal, of course )
An unloaded gun is just a club.
fozzy
09-21-2007, 11:30 PM
also, I have to add... I am curious about what experiences HBC members may have had out of hunting season... carrying a firearm when scouting and hiking... have any been hassled? thanks
No first hand experience but when reading the regs the definition for hunting is searching for, looking for ... whether or not the animal is killed is classed as hunting so my take is no rifle allowed. In bear country having one on the shoulder is peace of mind but bear bangers and spray have to do I guess.
No first hand experience but when reading the regs the definition for hunting is searching for, looking for ... whether or not the animal is killed is classed as hunting so my take is no rifle allowed.
From that definition, scouting would in itself be considered hunting! It certainly is a grey area of regs, but as mentioned or not mentioned, no one has first hand accounts of firearms being seized and people charged and convicted for having a firearm in their possesion when everything else is above boards.
It seems more in days gone by and probably still to a certain extent now, cops and CO's when in doubt, seize and charge, letting the courts figure it out. It ain't right, but that's the way it is........
Bugsy
09-22-2007, 08:36 AM
It seems more in days gone by and probably still to a certain extent now, cops and CO's when in doubt, seize and charge, letting the courts figure it out. It ain't right, but that's the way it is........
That's pretty much what they did to the fellow that Will is speaking of.Took him six month's to get his rifle back too!:eek:
Even if the charges end up being boguss and don't stand up they feel they did their job.:xBugsy.
Camp Cook
09-22-2007, 09:35 AM
How about contacting the CO office in the area and let them know where you are and that you will be carrying a loaded firearm with you.
Let them know who you are as well as let them see that you are willing to work with them.
I am licensed with an ATC (authorization to carry handguns for defense in remote wilderness areas) and have many times stopped off at the CO's or RCMP's office before heading into the bush.
It has been over 5 years since I have been checked by an enforcement officer now and the last time was while we were fishing on the Copper River near Terrace.
I had a loaded Marlin 1895GS with me that was leaning against a rock while we were fishing, the CO only asked to see my PAL and fishing license and he was back on his way.
DavidGordon
09-22-2007, 09:41 AM
This it what I am looking at getting... I have read good things about them
The mossberg is a bit of a stick, probably not a gun your grandkids are going to fight over but it probably will last that long as long as you keep it oiled. The blueing (sp?) isn't the best so you will need to keep it oiled and clean. By the third night in a damp tent it will need a quick clean up.
Quote:
The gun rides on the back of my wife's pack so all I have to do is reach out and pull when I want it. My wife keeps joking that she is going to start making pink gun bags.
Do you keep it loaded? ( where legal, of course )
Were legal there are rounds in the magazine but nothing in the chamber. I figure a gun accident while hiking would be someone falling on it.
I have had lots of possitive bear, wolf encounters while hiking or skiing. One negitve cougar encounter (it tracked my hiking partner and me all day - didn't sleep well that night). Lots of negitive moose encounters.
I never hiked with a gun until I had a wife and kids. What changed my mind was watching a coyote watch my kids. The kids were arms lenght away but non the less that coyote saw dinner. It doesn't matter how hard you try a six year old will always smell like food and is so clumsy they MUST look wounded. The high squeaky voice doesn't help either.
I have only used bear bangers once and they didn't work. I used bear once on a raccon. It had nested in the carport - gave it a blast from 2 meters. It sneezed, hissed at me, and continued on. I ended up having to remove it with a broom.
One problem we are running into is there is a lot of amazing back country places that can only be accessed by walking through a front country park (no firearms) first. Part of the watcom trail has done this. Manning park has been extended so you have 500m of park to walk through before you get out of the park.
Bottom line for me is if I am hiking with the 'guys' I go lite. If it is a family hike I want the extra security.
That's pretty much what they did to the fellow that Will is speaking of.Took him six month's to get his rifle back too!:eek:
Even if the charges end up being boguss and don't stand up they feel they did their job. Bugsy.
AHHHHH ! The Lurker King joins us.....:lol:
6 Months !!! ....I stand corrected:wink:
Yeppers Not enough cops around to catch the Pukes that pryed the door handle off my truck in the middle of the daytime....but they sure have time to Fly around Mckenzie in a Helicopter writing fines for unsafe firearms in Hunting camps.................way to go ! :roll:
okanagan hiker
09-22-2007, 12:55 PM
How about contacting the CO office in the area and let them know where you are and that you will be carrying a loaded firearm with you.
Let them know who you are as well as let them see that you are willing to work with them.
I am licensed with an ATC (authorization to carry handguns for defense in remote wilderness areas) and have many times stopped off at the CO's or RCMP's office before heading into the bush.
It has been over 5 years since I have been checked by an enforcement officer now and the last time was while we were fishing on the Copper River near Terrace.
I had a loaded Marlin 1895GS with me that was leaning against a rock while we were fishing, the CO only asked to see my PAL and fishing license and he was back on his way.
This a very good idea, and one which I already do... I frequently call the RCMP and CO in the area to let them know where I will be and that I am carrying a loaded firearm ( where legal )... so far, all I have had them do is tel me to be safe and have a nice hike!
okanagan hiker
09-22-2007, 01:11 PM
[quote=DavidGordon;187244]Quote:
One problem we are running into is there is a lot of amazing back country places that can only be accessed by walking through a front country park (no firearms) first. Part of the watcom trail has done this. Manning park has been extended so you have 500m of park to walk through before you get out of the park.
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As I read the synopsis, in a National Park, a firearm must be dismantled or in locked case, and may not be outside of a vehicle unless with a permit issued by the park Superintendent. In a Provincial Park, outside of a legal hunting season, the same rules apply. As you said, this can often make accessing the area you want to get to a problem. I haven't tried getting a permit yet, but I want to access Cascade this Fall and/or Spring, and will see how hard the permit is to get.
My understanding is a gun can't be kept loaded in a camp even in a remote wilderness area. From the CFC website:
An unloaded non-restricted firearm can be kept unlocked:
temporarily if it is needed to control animal predators in an area where a firearm can lawfully be fired (ammunition must be kept separate or locked up); or
in a remote wilderness area (ammunition may be kept readily accessible).
okanagan hiker
09-22-2007, 09:47 PM
My understanding is a gun can't be kept loaded in a camp even in a remote wilderness area. From the CFC website:
An unloaded non-restricted firearm can be kept unlocked:
temporarily if it is needed to control animal predators in an area where a firearm can lawfully be fired (ammunition must be kept separate or locked up); or
in a remote wilderness area (ammunition may be kept readily accessible).I think that this refers to "storage" of the firearm ( and it seems that gets interpeted differently ) I have an email in to the NFA about this issue. As others have pointed out... whats the diff between setting a loaded gun against a log while having lunch, and doing it while sitting around a campfire at night? Its not being "stored".
As I said before, this seems like common sense to me, BUT I am worried about breaking laws.
mrdoog
09-22-2007, 10:51 PM
Just show the CO your Bogey Man tags and you're good to go.
Gateholio
09-22-2007, 11:35 PM
Geez.............
I cannot believe this is still going on.
STORAGE has STORAGE laws. STORAGE is when you aren't around
TRANSPORT is another set of laws, this is when you are transporting a firearm in a vehicle and/or through non shooting areas.
When you are not transporting or storing, it is IN USE.
A loaded rifle in a attended camp is IN USE. And it's LEGAL.:shock:
The Hermit
09-22-2007, 11:39 PM
I had a Conservation Office come into my camp this year and tell me that I could not leave my rifle unattended in camp period. Loaded or not, and that he would confiscate them if I did.
You can however leave them unattended in your car, unloaded, locked, and out of sight!
browningboy
09-23-2007, 05:35 PM
Take it this way, if that makes you comfortable, then giver' , people can resite all the regs lalalala but common sense should come into play, location, how many guys whatever, but really whatever tickles your fancy!
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