Warning to bc sheep hunters.

[Romain]

https://i.imgur.com/Bj5ZrkEl.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/v2pYZY0l.jpg

I enjoy reading the many threads on this site outlining people’s happy accomplishments and hard work. However, this thread is a warning to all hunters regarding a recent occurrence that has happened in our community to a young hunter. In 2016 a 16 year old went Stone Sheep hunting in Northern BC with his Father and a Family Friend. They were fortunate enough to shoot not one but TWO TREMENDOUS B&C Rams. One of these rams was the young man's first ram himself. When they got back to Kamloops they took them in to get CI’d as we all would. The first ram was put on the jig, both lamb tips extending well beyond the bridge of it’s nose and verified to be a legal ram. Now when the Kamloops Bio aged this ram he aged it at 9 years old when the ram is VERY CLEARLY 11. He missed not 1 but 2 years of growth! HOWEVER, the ram was legal and he was taking it home. Now the second Ram goes onto the jig as the young man looks on. Double Broomed and just a hair over 16” bases. Yes you read correctly, 16” bases on a Stone Sheep. As the ram had broomed both of its lamb tips it did not break nose and was shot on age as it was very clearly 8 years old MINIMUM. The Biologist starts to Count: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7….7.5. He then turns to the young man and says he would like to get a second opinion. He returns to the room with a Kamloops CO (Not Biologist) for a second opinion which yielded the same number 7.5 years of age. They tell the young man that he has shot an illegal sheep and that they are confiscating the ram. Despite trying to reason with the Biologist in the room and showing him that the ram cannot physically be 7-7.5 years of age as they say, the ram is confiscated.


Fast Forward 2 years of Legal matters and a 3 day Court Case.


The Province has it’s “Expert Witness”, the region 6 Biologist. The young man and his father have their Expert Witness Dr. Valerius Geist, a Biologist that has spent his entire life studying sheep in the wild and putting on aging seminars to teach both the public and also teach biologists in the university setting.


The Result: The Judge did not overturn the Province’s decision based on a "balance of probabilities”, meaning that in the Judge’s eyes he was unsure whether the province or the defendant had proved their case. Unfortunately the truth and facts about sheep aging fell on deaf ears for 3 days.


I am directing attention to this matter because this is something that should not go unnoticed. For all those with Facebook please check out our friend and world renowned Sheep Guide Clay Lancaster’s post on the matter as his opinion and the comments of various well known hunters are voiced. If the link does not work, check out Clay Lancaster's Facebook page to read the story and comments.


https://www.facebook.com/clay.lancaster.10?ref=br_tf&epa=SEARCH_BOX


Both he and a handful of other professional hunting guides have eagerly voiced their opinion regarding the ram in question and every one of them agrees this is a legal ram. If nothing else changes regarding this case we want to get the word out regarding the decision and raise awareness about the matter at hand. Mistakes can be made by ANYONE, even people in power and Governmental authorities, however it takes good people to admit when they are wrong. Unfortunately in this case there are no “Good People” on the other side and they are hanging a 16 year old out to dry. It’s embarrassing.


In conclusion, this message is not written to be “Hate Mail” directed at anyone but rather a message to the public. A warning that right now it’s not just the Anti hunting and uneducated parties that are working against outdoorsmen and women but that it is those in Government too. The same people that are suppose to be teaching and setting an example for the next generation.


Please Share.


PS. Here is how a very well respected Sheep guide that has guided over 100 Rams has aged the ram in Question.

https://i.imgur.com/mLRIZBbl.png

[Fella]

I’m not a sheep guy so can’t comment on whether or not that ram is legal but if it is that’s a travesty

[Wild one]

I am not a sheep hunter and no expert on aging sheep but if I am understanding correct in the last diagram if you use only the existing horn it only shows 7.5 years of growth

Is this correct?

If so for legal purposes the bio can only use the existing horn to age the sheep even if it’s a broomed off older ram. Can’t expect non existent horn to be used for aging purposes

If the existing horn shows more than 7.5 years ignore what I have to say. My knowledge with sheep aging is limited to what I have been shown on mounts from friends who hunt them

[boxhitch]

Agree with the lines in the last picture, there has to be growth at the base for the current year. So either 7 or 8, depending on how much credit is given to the broomed off portion.
If Govt claims the first ring at the tip is actually the first years growth, they had better have supporting evidence from rams in the same area sporting similar size lamb tips, with similar large circumference

Reaaly surprised Geist would suggest that maybe two or more years are broomed off.

[Kddowds]

Obvious 8.5 year! Any hunter/guide would shoot this ram on age!

[boxhitch]

WO you are correct, and in fact the reg does state 'as evidenced by true horn annuli...'

[Romain]

You're correct about the visible horn annuli. But when you look at the circumference around the broomed portion of the horn and compare that to what the printed literature says, you will see that it is over 2-3x the size of what a 1 year old ram would be thus suggesting the first visible annuli to be at least 2 years of age. If you are just to look at a 1 year old ram/lamb and see the amount of horn protruding from its head you often won't even see it past the hair however they are saying that this lamb at one year had bases as big as you see in the picture at the first visible annuli when that is physically impossible. A little lamb does have that much space on top of its head to fit those.

[ryanb]

The first annulus, even on unbroomed sheep is often hard to detect, on a heavily broomed ram it may be absent. Herein lies the danger in shooting a short 8 year old ram on age alone.

The regulations are clear the annulus must be present, not implied by mass or brooming.

This ram clearly is 8, but by the letter of the law, does not meet the requirements.

[m5wilson]

Don't really have much to add but would find it interesting to see the results if every other bio/inspector were to make a legality call on this sheep with no prior information. How much variation would there be?

I think it is the variation in regulatory systems that sometimes make the decisions hard to except.

[Wild one]

I would say this ram falls under the same category as an elk that broke of its 6th point you can tell the tine was there but with it missing it falls short of legal requirements

I think most would agree it’s 8+year old ram but it falls shy of physical legally required evidence

Sorry but I have to respect the bio’s call on this one

[steel_ram]

I would say this ram falls under the same category as an elk that broke of its 6th point you can tell the tine was there but with it missing it falls short of legal requirements

I think most would agree it’s 8+year old ram but it falls shy of physical legally required evidence

Sorry but I have to respect the bio’s call on this one

Not wanting to stray too far from the op, but does that work both ways? If a mature bull moose has broken of all but a chunk of one antler, can it be "legally" classed as an immature?

[RyoTHC]

I don't have anything to add really,

But I will say, as a hunter going Into my third year only, it's posts like this that keep me away from hunting some of the species BC has to offer !

Maybe as the years pass I'll feel more confident in my abilities but for now I wouldn't even want to begin having the burden of aging a moving animal like this, when it can literally come down to personal in
Interpretation.. it's hard enough to count 4 points on a mule deer let alone age a sheep based on growth lines !

I'll let all you brave folks put in that hard word.

[Bugle M In]

Boy that sucks.
Clearly broomed off and would have been 8.5.
Glad I don't have the passion (or physical ability) to go and hunt them anymore.
I feel bad for the kid, but seeing the regs, it did not qualify.

[whitlers]

Is there not any other way to age sheep like their teeth? Just as a double check in situations like this were he was obv broomed off?

[BRvalley]

Truly feel for this young guy, tough lesson to learn, but if there is a silver lining at least social media has been exceptionally kind and shared a lot of empathy with him

having only been on 4 sheep hunts myself, and only 1 trip with a potential legal ram, can fully appreciate his thought process at the time, but based on the wording of the regs can also understand why the inspector made his decision

Mountain Sheep - Full Curl Thinhorn Ram - means any thinhorn ram mountain sheep that has attained the age of 8 years as evidenced by true horn annuli as determined by the regional manager or his designate, or whose horn tip, when viewed squarely from the side at right angles to the sagittal plane of the skull, extends dorsally beyond the nose bridge plane. Do not use yearly horn growth annuli to determine the age of a ram in the field, because “false” annuli may be present


I haven't read what penalty or hunting suspension the kid suffered? The lack of incisor tooth is interesting, even if the ram was determined to be legal, would there still be a fine for leaving the incisor on the mountain? from the regs:

COMPULSORY INSPECTIONCompulsory Inspectors will not complete thecompulsory inspection unless ALL informationand parts are submitted and able to becollected


"Jex cited his department’s use of more modern studies, tooth age analysis and X-rays, although the judge noted he had no formal training in interpreting X-rays. He did provide extensive data sets and graphs from his department’s records and reported the plaintiff had not submitted an incisor tooth for analysis, failing to add to the required burden of proof.

The final judgement said it was “not a straight-forward exercise” due to the experts’ profound disagreements but ruled against Crawford, stating the failure to submit the incisor tooth had added to the judge’s view he had not established “on a balance of probabilities” the ram was eight years old."

https://www.sookenewsmirror.com/news/experts-butt-heads-in-court-hunter-loses-case-for-return-of-ram/

[Romain]

Unfortunately even the BC regs stipulate "True horn Annuli" not Visible horn annuli and that is where the discrepancy lies. There are hundreds of Plugged rams across the province with 7 visible annuli. I ended up shooting a very large ram the next year that only had 7 visible annuli and it was aged at 8.5 years old. Same mountain, same cohort of sheep, same genetics, same age. As for the teeth, unfortunately both jaws were left in the mountains as 2016 was the first year of mandatory teeth submission. However cutting and aging teeth is as subjective as aging horn annuli and often cannot yield a definitive age. There is no literature to back up aging of horns based on lamb tip growth by x ray and all x rays shown to the court were harder to age then looking at the horn themselves. Very tough situation.

[guest]

Dam!
I feel bad for the kid too.
I just dont get common sence some times.
Some say 1st anuli at tip 2.5 yrs. Others dont.
True 7.5 is obvious ...... But in tight to the skull the anuli get stacked like on top each other and are hard to clearly identify.
This Ram was taken to the actual Bio.....not one of the misinformed part time inspectors..... Im disappointed along with you.

All that said.....its a tough call to put the hammer down on this guy when 7 are shown not 8.
Landcasters experience of over 100 Rams.... Geists experience these should count for something.
IMO...... I think the Bio and Judge got this one WRONG.

Tough loss to the young fellow.

[Bugle M In]

"True" over "Visible" annuli is a great argument.
Something the Ministry may need to revisit.
The lack of tooth doesn't help either.

This is one of those cases I hate hearing about as I don't think anybody had a bad intent in this case.
(Far different than that 1 hunter taking a record ram in the Yukon, but was only to hunt in BC)
The intent there was obvious.

I have seen several bull elk taken that I would never have taken.
2 of them might be arguable as to if that 6th point (if you could call it that?) made it legal.
The other was one the definitely would not have passed at all but the hunter was adamite it was legal.
I just leave it to the CO's to figure out if they ever did get checked on their drive out.

Hopefully in this case the courts showed some sort of empathy for young guy and the ministry as well and
didn't make him suffer to severe of consequences?

[porthunter]

Tough pill to swallow, the regs state "True Horn Annuli" but I mean, come on. That's an 8.5 year old ram, maybe older.

When you have guys like Dustin Roe, Clay Lancaster and Valerius Geist all in agreement, that has to count for something I would think.

Any idea on the penalty? Hopefully not anything ridiculous. Also hope this experience doesn't turn a young kid off sheep hunting and all the great that comes with it.

My one thought that comes of this is the thought process for others heading into the mountains, theres many great, broomed rams that are taken. But after reading this, a guy could walk up on a band of rams which has 2 legal, a 10 year old broomed(just below the bridge), and a 7 year old tipped ram(barely over the bridge). With knowing this story and having a fear of loosing the broomed ram like in this case, guys could choose to harvest the younger ram. Which to me isn't right, the oldest ram should always be taken over the younger. Hopefully that makes sense.

[bearvalley]

The call on that sheep is a tuff deal.
Without a doubt the ram was 8+ years old....but the annuli to show that are not there.
Bill Jex could only make the call that he did in this case...going by the visible annuli the ram is 7+.
It’s too bad a tooth hadn’t been pulled...but there can be variances there as well.

[Foxton Gundogs]

Not wanting to stray too far from the op, but does that work both ways? If a mature bull moose has broken of all but a chunk of one antler, can it be "legally" classed as an immature?

Immature for a fact as told me by a CO in PG. this was a voluntary inspection of mature bull with broken/deformed antlers that only showed 2 countable points on one side. His ruling was Mature, yes but legal by tine count. No charge or even warning.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

IIRC when the retrained the compulsory inspectors a few years ago, I thought that if the estimated groomed length was greater than 2” then the next visible annuli would be considered the second.

If what we all consider the third annuli is a second year “bulge” then the lengths to the 3 annuli are off the normal charts ....even for a B&C ram.

Having said all of this, I want to get at least 9 years on a ram before pulling the pin on a short ram.

SSS

[Kootenaykid85]

Can we see a picture of the Horns without the cape?

[whitlers]

Question for you sheep guys. Typically are double broomed rams around 8 years or older or can you expect a younger ram to be broomed?

[Bubbacanuck]

Seems a bit complex. Glad to know all of this, as I realize I have a ton to learn before even thinking about sheep hunting. Feel bad for the kid.

[Kopper]

So there’s an area that is known for huge growth (most prevalent on the first growing season) which results in an unusually long lamb tip; just food for thought. The area does also have great mass as well.

From a bio standpoint, it would be hard to age on what they cannot see. It’s only assumptions and educated guesses after that.

My rule, if shooting on age and there’s ANY uncertainty is to pass on 8 year olds. Maybe it’s being cautious but I’d rather pass than shoot an underaged sheep and lose it. In my rookie sheep year, two days into my sheep career, I passed on a ram I counted 8 rings on over and over. Two days of following the group around at 300 yards. Looking back I know his lamb tips were missing in the broomed off section. I was being over cautious forsure but I was young and had no experience to back it. It can be tricky business shooting on age....

[bearvalley]

So there’s an area that is known for huge growth (most prevalent on the first growing season) which results in an unusually long lamb tip; just food for thought. The area does also have great mass as well.

From a bio standpoint, it would be hard to age on what they cannot see. It’s only assumptions and educated guesses after that.

My rule, if shooting on age and there’s ANY uncertainty is to pass on 8 year olds.
It can be tricky business shooting on age....

The last 2 sentences pretty well sum it up.

[boxhitch]

Immature for a fact as told me by a CO in PG. this was a voluntary inspection of mature bull with broken/deformed antlers that only showed 2 countable points on one side. His ruling was Mature, yes but legal by tine count. No charge or even warning.the reason 'immature' was removed and now it is only tine count. They don't care if one or two fall through the cracks, the tine count is the definative defensable regulation.

Just like this ram. the regs say 'as evidenced by true horn annuli' implying they have to be there to count.
BJ has been giving sheep aging seminars for years at the WSSoBC convention, this has been discussed ad nauseum

Whats also scary about this situation and the posts on CL's FB is all the guys saying they would shoot the same ram.
This isn't the first time a ram like this has been deemed illegal and not the last apparently.
Its not like someone moved the goal posts for this one

[boxhitch]

Question for you sheep guys. Typically are double broomed rams around 8 years or older or can you expect a younger ram to be broomed?expect anything, never say never. Missing tips can be the result of a few causes, actual brooming, breakage, deformity

[Romain]

the reason 'immature' was removed and now it is only tine count. They don't care if one or two fall through the cracks, the tine count is the definative defensable regulation.

Just like this ram. the regs say 'as evidenced by true horn annuli' implying they have to be there to count.
BJ has been giving sheep aging seminars for years at the WSSoBC convention, this has been discussed ad nauseum

Whats also scary about this situation and the posts on CL's FB is all the guys saying they would shoot the same ram.
This isn't the first time a ram like this has been deemed illegal and not the last apparently.
Its not like someone moved the goal posts for this one

Both BJ and CL have BOTH done the horn aging for the BC Sheep show the last two years yet they come to different conclusions. Dr. Geist also spent YEARS teaching those same bios while they were going through school. What is more is nobody looks at more rams then Sheep guides themselves and when you read the comments on Clay's FB post you can see some world renowned sheep guides aging it and saying they would have pulled the trigger also. In the end a little common sense can go a long ways.

[Kootenaykid85]

16 inch bases = large lamb tips. I’m going to have to agree with the bio on this one. My question is why not let the kid shoot the legal one?

[wideopenthrottle]

being from a forestry background, it makes me think of someone counting 20 tree rings on a stump 10 feet in the air and stating the tree is 20 years old....

[VLD43]

Over the years, I have talked to a number of CO's regarding aging Sheep. The consistent response from everyone of them was , don't shoot a ram based on age unless you have a lot of experience, and even then be cautious. They also said you should always use horn length as the final determining factor. Things like false annuli, can bite you, and usually the CO has the final say. Yes Sheep hunting is a tough game, but if you have to spend a lot of time trying to assess horn length, then you are probably better to pass than shoot

[srupp]

Thank you for the courage to post this exellent post.
When at the WSSBC in kamloops they were telling us the Province has a stone sheep expert She lives up north and from horn length, bases..etc she can determine its age exactly...pretty tough when VG isnt given credibility enough. .
The concept of annuli, and length is used to determain ?.....mature ram..but those are the rules damn it..
In 2009 looking over 11 rams..sorted it out to 3..one was wide and definatly over the nose bridge..but ugly..imo
The one I harvested was 15 plus bases x 39..however dropped so low he just barely broke the bridge of the nose..I believe from memory he was 8 but I shit razor blades walking up to my ram...ihad watched for 2 hours to correctly judge length age was inpossible withe even Swarovski at 60x..
The CO too put the ram in the jig..he made it both ways age and length however it IS INDEED a situation for an abundance of caution..Scott repeatadly reminded me if in doubt walk...
Shit happens unfortunatley.
Srupp

[Jimbob]

Change the regs.

Right now every 8 year old ram is NOT a legal ram. So when the regs say legal rams are 8 years old it is kind of contradictory. Regs should say: a legal ram is full curl or has 8 growth rings on the horns.

Leave age and years out of it and just go by growth rings or curl.

Technically the law right now has nothing to do with age but only what is VISIBLE by the rings. Just make that even more clear in the regs. Maybe even mention that broomed off rams with out 8 rings are not legal.

[Deadshot]

I wouldn’t shoot that ram.

[LBM]

Obvious 8.5 year! Any hunter/guide would shoot this ram on age!

Interesting comment, you can only speak for your self. Ive hunted sheep, guided sheep, shot sheep but from what I see in this picture would not of shot this sheep.
Yes its a beautiful ram, but again from what can see in the picture would not of shot based on age.

[whitlers]

Would there be any reason to consider adding any double broomed ram to the regs as legal? Again I'm not savy on sheep but would that be acceptable or would we see to many 7 yr old minus broomed rams being taken?

[Wild one]

Would there be any reason to consider adding any double broomed ram to the regs as legal? Again I'm not savy on sheep but would that be acceptable or would we see to many 7 yr old minus broomed rams being taken?

It would not solve the issue some broom young

The only sure way to solve it is do away with the age rule and go to curl only combined with an any ram LEH. This is what was done with Spence’s bridge do to short sheep being shot on age.

[whitlers]

It would not solve the issue some broom young

The only sure way to solve it is do away with the age rule and go to curl only combined with an any ram LEH. This is what was done with Spence’s bridge do to short sheep being shot on age.

Ahhh I see. Yah that would make sense.

[bearvalley]

The only sure way to solve it is do away with the age rule and go to curl only combined with an any ram LEH. This is what was done with Spence’s bridge do to short sheep being shot on age.

Better yet, do away with the 8 years or full curl regulation and implement an LEH any ram season.
As long as the LEH authorizations do not exceed the sustainable harvest of rams this could be a winning situation.
There’s old rams that under the current regs will never be legal.
Not all rams live to be 8 years old.
Im pretty sure the COS and a lot of provincial biologists would go along with a proposal like this....all they have to do is check for nuts.
I would bet that Bill Jex would agree that the ram pictured by the OP is 8+ years old....where the sheep failed is that it didn’t bridge and did not have the visible annuli.
If Bill had ruled in favour of the hunter and handed over the horns a legal precedent would have been set and any future ram with 7 annuli and a broomed tip would become legal.
Ageing a short sheep is risky....I’ve seen short, 7 year old rams aged at 8, 9 and even 10 years old by experienced sheep hunters when looking at pictures.
Ive also seen bios age sheep the same, looking at complete different annuli in their age count.
The best bet is to make sure the ram makes full curl then it’s gauranteed legal.

[porthunter]

Better yet, do away with the 8 years or full curl regulation and implement an LEH any ram season.
As long as the LEH authorizations do not exceed the sustainable harvest of rams this could be a winning situation.
There’s old rams that under the current regs will never be legal.
Not all rams live to be 8 years old.
Im pretty sure the COS and a lot of provincial biologists would go along with a proposal like this....all they have to do is check for nuts.
I would bet that Bill Jex would agree that the ram pictured by the OP is 8+ years old....where the sheep failed is that it didn’t bridge and did not have the visible annuli.
If Bill had ruled in favour of the hunter and handed over the horns a legal precedent would have been set and any future ram with 7 annuli and a broomed tip would become legal.
Ageing a short sheep is risky....I’ve seen short, 7 year old rams aged at 8, 9 and even 10 years old by experienced sheep hunters when looking at pictures.
Ive also seen bios age sheep the same, looking at complete different annuli in their age count.
The best bet is to make sure the ram makes full curl then it’s gauranteed legal.

Just asking to make sure I fully understand, are you suggesting all sheep hunting should be on LEH for any ram? No more GOS for sheep?

[Wild one]

Better yet, do away with the 8 years or full curl regulation and implement an LEH any ram season.
As long as the LEH authorizations do not exceed the sustainable harvest of rams this could be a winning situation.
There’s old rams that under the current regs will never be legal.
Not all rams live to be 8 years old.
Im pretty sure the COS and a lot of provincial biologists would go along with a proposal like this....all they have to do is check for nuts.
I would bet that Bill Jex would agree that the ram pictured by the OP is 8+ years old....where the sheep failed is that it didn’t bridge and did not have the visible annuli.
If Bill had ruled in favour of the hunter and handed over the horns a legal precedent would have been set and any future ram with 7 annuli and a broomed tip would become legal.
Ageing a short sheep is risky....I’ve seen short, 7 year old rams aged at 8, 9 and even 10 years old by experienced sheep hunters when looking at pictures.
Ive also seen bios age sheep the same, looking at complete different annuli in their age count.
The best bet is to make sure the ram makes full curl then it’s gauranteed legal.

I hate LEH unless needed so let’s not go there

Not a sheep hunter(been on 3 unsuccessful sheep hunts) and ageing in the field is beyond me but I cannot speak enough for or against shooting sheep on age. I can say for a fact I would not shoot the ram posted

either way if short sheep is shown as a problem something should change

[bearvalley]

So Wild one, here’s a question......in an area that’s already LEH for sheep and the resident harvest is not being met under the current regulations.....what is wrong with an “ANY RAM LEH” as long as the issued authorizations are kept within a range that ensures an overharvest does not occur?

[ACE]

A sliding 'trophy fee' scale.
Over the bridge . . . no fee.
Each increment below the bridge, an incremental larger 'trophy fee'.
Hunter keeps his ram.

[bearvalley]

Just asking to make sure I fully understand, are you suggesting all sheep hunting should be on LEH for any ram? No more GOS for sheep?

No, I wasn’t suggesting all sheep hunts go to LEH.
But now that you brought it up and not to start a pissing match....the day is probably coming.
The old days of tight lipped sheep hunters is of the past.
Access, GPS devices and the internet aren’t working in the favour of sheep.

[bearvalley]

A sliding 'trophy fee' scale.
Over the bridge . . . no fee.
Each increment below the bridge, an incremental larger 'trophy fee'.
Hunter keeps his ram.

This concept holds merit!
There has to be a better way than what’s currently the rule.
Many sheep hunters only take 1 ram in a lifetime and would be content with a short sheep.
Why confiscate a short ram, destroy the horns and create a situation where the hunter has to go harvest another ram.

[IronNoggin]

Better yet, do away with the 8 years or full curl regulation and implement an LEH any ram season.


WOAH!! :shock:

Must be the sound of Hell Freezing Over?

I actually and fully agree with BV on this.
In areas where LEH is the functioning management "tool", this in fact could be quite good for both the sheep and their hunters.
Very good in fact.

Stay with the full curl & eliminate any considerations of "age" in GOS (while it lasts) and this could be a Win Win.

Cheers BV. Surprised, but not overly so... :wink:
Nog

[Boner]

I think they should hash out why professionals disagree on the age of the sheep before they change the regs.

[358mag]

A sliding 'trophy fee' scale.
Over the bridge . . . no fee.
Each increment below the bridge, an incremental larger 'trophy fee'.
Hunter keeps his ram.
But according to the uppers , no resident hunters are " Trophy Hunters " only rich non residents are " Trophy Hunters "

[358mag]

So Wild one, here’s a question......in an area that’s already LEH for sheep and the resident harvest is not being met under the current regulations.....what is wrong with an “ANY RAM LEH” as long as the issued authorizations are kept within a range that ensures an overharvest does not occur?
Sure the Federation would have something to say about that . Good luck with that .

[boxhitch]

All this flak over a single incident?
No need to change anything. In the big picture harvest age is good, minimal hassle with short sheep, pops. appear okay as the day/kill are trundling along fine.

Each year there are short/young sheep confiscated, and each year there are ones that get through the inspection.

It only takes fb and hbc to make a mountain of a mole hill
BC's gos thinhorns is something to be cherished and protected
Taking older class rams has proven to be sustainable, start messing with younger kills and the whole hunt will go to shite

[boxhitch]

I think they should hash out why professionals disagree on the age of the sheep before they change the regs.Hopefully the new requirement of a tooth for truth will finally put a nail in that.
What won't end is the subjective count of what is missing from a broomed horn, thin or big.

[358mag]

All this flak over a single incident? wtf
No need to change anything. In the big picture harvest age is good, minimal hassle with short sheep, pops. appear okay as the day/kill are trundling along fine.

Each year there are short/young sheep confiscated, and each year there are ones that get through the inspection.

It only takes fb and hbc to make a mountain of a mole hill
BC's gos thinhorns is something to be cherished and protected
Taking older class rams has proven to be sustainable, start messing with younger kills and the whole hunt will go to shite
No kidding we in BC have no idea how lucky we have it with a GOS on Stone's Sheep .
Hope it stays that way so my grandsons and there kids will be able to enjoy the experience that we were able to do.
When in doubt , don't shoot !!! .

[Wild one]

So Wild one, here’s a question......in an area that’s already LEH for sheep and the resident harvest is not being met under the current regulations.....what is wrong with an “ANY RAM LEH” as long as the issued authorizations are kept within a range that ensures an overharvest does not occur?

My uneducated opinion I can’t see why not if RH is not being met

[bearvalley]

My uneducated opinion I can’t see why not if RH is not being met
You’re catching on!

[bearvalley]

Sure the Federation would have something to say about that . Good luck with that .

Does it really matter?

[VLD43]

A sliding 'trophy fee' scale.
Over the bridge . . . no fee.
Each increment below the bridge, an incremental larger 'trophy fee'.
Hunter keeps his ram.

While this is a good idea it would not fly. I made the very same suggestion 25 years ago to two wildlife biologists. They took the idea forward to the CO branch who quickly nixed the idea. Their response was that it would be impossible to manage regarding enforcement. Another suggestion made regarding LEH for any ram is also not a good idea, as the whole purpose of harvesting rams of a defined maturity or age is to ensure older rams that are past their prime breeding age are killed. The rams in the prime of their breeding years are to be left alone. The whole aging discussion is a complicated one. You used to be able to shoot Rocky MTN Bighorns and Cali's based on age. That requirement was abandoned years ago, because to many under age rams were being shot. Spences Bridge went from full curl to mature full curl for exactly the same reason. There is no simple answer here, other than for the most part Sheep Hunting takes a lot of discipline knowledge and hard work. It's not for everyone, but is it well worth the effort, if you have what it takes.

[Tron]

I’ve spoken with a ci about a broomed off ram. He said if it has 6 visible annuli and he can see it’s broomed off the first and second years annuli he can pass it with a age of eight based on his or her expertise and what else they see indicating age. If it’s is broomed more than this a biologist has to do the ci but can then pass it based on there expertise and other things as well. I’ve seen a ram with both horns broken off 7” long and 5 visible annuli on each horn get aged at 10 years old and was plugged. So for them to only use the visible annuli to age that ram is false

[Rampager]

Truly feel for this young guy, tough lesson to learn, but if there is a silver lining at least social media has been exceptionally kind and shared a lot of empathy with him

having only been on 4 sheep hunts myself, and only 1 trip with a potential legal ram, can fully appreciate his thought process at the time, but based on the wording of the regs can also understand why the inspector made his decision

Mountain Sheep - Full Curl Thinhorn Ram - means any thinhorn ram mountain sheep that has attained the age of 8 years as evidenced by true horn annuli as determined by the regional manager or his designate, or whose horn tip, when viewed squarely from the side at right angles to the sagittal plane of the skull, extends dorsally beyond the nose bridge plane. Do not use yearly horn growth annuli to determine the age of a ram in the field, because “false” annuli may be present


I haven't read what penalty or hunting suspension the kid suffered? The lack of incisor tooth is interesting, even if the ram was determined to be legal, would there still be a fine for leaving the incisor on the mountain? from the regs:

COMPULSORY INSPECTIONCompulsory Inspectors will not complete thecompulsory inspection unless ALL informationand parts are submitted and able to becollected


"Jex cited his department’s use of more modern studies, tooth age analysis and X-rays, although the judge noted he had no formal training in interpreting X-rays. He did provide extensive data sets and graphs from his department’s records and reported the plaintiff had not submitted an incisor tooth for analysis, failing to add to the required burden of proof.

The final judgement said it was “not a straight-forward exercise” due to the experts’ profound disagreements but ruled against Crawford, stating the failure to submit the incisor tooth had added to the judge’s view he had not established “on a balance of probabilities” the ram was eight years old."

https://www.sookenewsmirror.com/news/experts-butt-heads-in-court-hunter-loses-case-for-return-of-ram/




To me the issue lies with the subjectivity in the words "as evidenced by true horn annuli as determined by the regional manager or his designate".

Someone earlier in this thread made a comparison between true horn annuli and visible horn annuli. Up until now I understood the intent of the words true annuli as to mean not false annuli, rather than visible annuli. I attended Bill Jex's aging seminar at the sheep show this year and one of the topics he spoke on, and had graphs to show it, was the very, very predictable growth pattern of horns. I'm sure everyone experienced in aging sheep knows that based on this universally accepted pattern there is a year of growth broken off this ram in question. So why wasn't the regional manager or his designate able to see this and say the ram was 8+?

The judge cited "had not established on a balance of probabilities the ram was eight years old." This is the part I don't get. If everyone and their dog, even BJ as evidenced by his presentations, knows this ram is 8 due to the universally accepted growth pattern? It's more like on the balance of probabilities (and then some) the ram certainly is 8!

The issue with the current regulations is the power given to the "regional manager or his designate" to legally "determine" what the "true horn annuli evidence."

In my opinion the regs need to be updated to clarify this issue one way or the other. It is simply unacceptable for it to be possible for a sheep to be deemed legal by one inspector but not by another. This rule needs to be 100% objective.

[mountainman2]

I think your only mistake was taking back to Kamloops to get plugged, If you let the guys certify it that see the majority of the Stone sheep taken in BC each year, he would be hanging on your wall

[Bugle M In]

I think your only mistake was taking back to Kamloops to get plugged, If you let the guys certify it that see the majority of the Stone sheep taken in BC each year, he would be hanging on your wall

;)…….…………………..

[russm86]

Not wanting to stray too far from the op, but does that work both ways? If a mature bull moose has broken of all but a chunk of one antler, can it be "legally" classed as an immature?

Yes, it can and does happen. I have seen guys shoot a moose with a full palmated antler on one side and the other could only be described as a single club/spike. COs stopped him and let him on his way as it fit the latest definition in the regs of being spike or fork bull. FYI, they intentionally removed the "immature bull" idea from the regs for this reason. It now specifically says spike/fork, so if it has broken everything off on one side with the exception of one or 2 legally defined points/tines, it is legal as a spike/fork. I myself shot a bull under an any bull LEH, he had busted one side off completely during the rut, the CO came through camp later and we asked him out of curiosity whether it could have been a spike/fork under the regs if we did not have an LEH and were in a spike/fork open season/region, he said ours technically wouldn't as it had busted off so far to the base that what was left didn't fit the dimensional restrictions in the regs for a point/tine BUT, had it been slightly longer and narrower, it would have, even with the other side in tact and fully palmated.

[40incher]

The Region 6 biologist who was the "expert" witness doesn't know shit from shinola ... been dealing with him myself for way to long. He wanted to stop B.C hunters from taking old broom-back rams, based on age, completely a few years ago. He got beat down on that one as his argument was based on personal opinion rather than proven facts/science. That's a pretty common mindset in Skeena Region.

Unfortunately this type of flawed thinking is contagious, as it is being repeated across all regions now.

The ram in question is at least 8-years old. I feel bad for the kid. A little discretion by the bureaucrats is required in a case like this.

[porthunter]

No, I wasn’t suggesting all sheep hunts go to LEH.
But now that you brought it up and not to start a pissing match....the day is probably coming.
The old days of tight lipped sheep hunters is of the past.
Access, GPS devices and the internet aren’t working in the favour of sheep.

Ahh I see, so you're saying something to hunting sheep in say, the Fraser River area? GOS for Full Curl Rams(over the nose when talking thinhorns) but a LEH for 3/4 rams. I personally would prefer to see some sort of control on that, maybe 3/4 LEH for thinhorns? Something about the idea of a 2 or 3 year old ram being harvested really bothers me. Also aware that there are some 3/4 rams that have been taken in the past that were 3 years old, but that isn't very common.

[358mag]

So Wild one, here’s a question......in an area that’s already LEH for sheep and the resident harvest is not being met under the current regulations.....what is wrong with an “ANY RAM LEH” as long as the issued authorizations are kept within a range that ensures an overharvest does not occur?

Few zones in Region 8 are any ram LEH

[Fosey]

That's the problem with age restriction, be careful. You are taking a chance when counting annuli.

[Romain]

I think your only mistake was taking back to Kamloops to get plugged, If you let the guys certify it that see the majority of the Stone sheep taken in BC each year, he would be hanging on your wall

You're absolutely right there my friend. Talked to a couple CIs independently in other regions who were private contracted out and they all said they would have plugged it. If nothing else the public should know where and where not to take their hard earned animals.

[bearvalley]

Few zones in Region 8 are any ram LEH

Hows that worked out..........?

[boxhitch]

Probably as you would expect )

[358mag]

Hows that worked out..........?

Haven't heard many complaints other than the high odds of getting drawn .

[dracb]

To me the issue lies with the subjectivity in the words "as evidenced by true horn annuli as determined by the regional manager or his designate".

Someone earlier in this thread made a comparison between true horn annuli and visible horn annuli. Up until now I understood the intent of the words true annuli as to mean not false annuli, rather than visible annuli. I attended Bill Jex's aging seminar at the sheep show this year and one of the topics he spoke on, and had graphs to show it, was the very, very predictable growth pattern of horns. I'm sure everyone experienced in aging sheep knows that based on this universally accepted pattern there is a year of growth broken off this ram in question. So why wasn't the regional manager or his designate able to see this and say the ram was 8+?

The judge cited "had not established on a balance of probabilities the ram was eight years old." This is the part I don't get. If everyone and their dog, even BJ as evidenced by his presentations, knows this ram is 8 due to the universally accepted growth pattern? It's more like on the balance of probabilities (and then some) the ram certainly is 8!

The issue with the current regulations is the power given to the "regional manager or his designate" to legally "determine" what the "true horn annuli evidence."

In my opinion the regs need to be updated to clarify this issue one way or the other. It is simply unacceptable for it to be possible for a sheep to be deemed legal by one inspector but not by another. This rule needs to be 100% objective.

That is why the C.I. can only count the annuli he can see when determining the "legal" age as contrasted with "actual" age. Start counting annuli you can not see and every short sheep become an argument based on opinion. The current system works amazingly well and relatively few short under "legal" age rams are confiscated. The variety of conflicting "opinions" offered in this thread is what you get when people abandon a clearly stated definition of "legal" and seek to apply in an inconsistent manner opinions based on a very wide range of unsubstantiated fact, observations and conditions that are not constant across the complete population of sheep or hunters.

Just use the rule: If I can not see an annuli it does not exist and never existed and can not be used to "Legally" age the sheep in question. The sheep is "legally" only as old as you the CI and the CO can count existing annuli.

[RJHunter]

I would have shot that ram for sure.....yikes....I would still shoot it.

[Wild one]

Well there is one thing I have learned from the thread I have no interest in becoming a sheep hunter way too complicated :roll:

[slowjo]

I feel very bad for the young man. However, his age (not the ram's age) is completely irrelevant to his case.

[adriaticum]

Yeah I read this. It's basically Geist's opinion against current biologist's for the province.
That's why I'm always uncomfortable doing something that relies on the subjective judgement of some government official.

[bearvalley]

That is why the C.I. can only count the annuli he can see when determining the "legal" age as contrasted with "actual" age. Start counting annuli you can not see and every short sheep become an argument based on opinion. The current system works amazingly well and relatively few short under "legal" age rams are confiscated. The variety of conflicting "opinions" offered in this thread is what you get when people abandon a clearly stated definition of "legal" and seek to apply in an inconsistent manner opinions based on a very wide range of unsubstantiated fact, observations and conditions that are not constant across the complete population of sheep or hunters.

Just use the rule: If I can not see an annuli it does not exist and never existed and can not be used to "Legally" age the sheep in question. The sheep is "legally" only as old as you the CI and the CO can count existing annuli.
Well said.

[RJHunter]

I don't see anywhere in the regs that states a ram has to have 8 visible true annuli to be legally considered 8 years old. I have always considered "evidenced by" to mean that the location and pattern of the visible annuli can be evidence for what was there before the horns were broomed.

I am no expert by any means but it seems experts do consider missing annuli when aging sheep. Slide 10 with presenter comment.
https://wildsheepsociety.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/Understanding-Sheep-Aging-Andrew-Walker.pdf

This is a good eye opener though.

[Walking Buffalo]

Rediculous!

Biologists are arguing over hunting induced genetic selection, some citing absolute confidence that thier studies prove 1,2,3% variance in horn length over 50 years of harvest stats.

And they can't absolutely age a sheep like this one (very typical growth pattern, no anomalies)?

Many in depth study on wild NA thinhorn ram horns cite the third to fourth year growth segment as absolutely identifiable based on THOUSANDS of registration records.

The ram (second photo) shows the third annulus to be located at the 7 o'clock position.

By the wording of BC legislation, this is a Legal ram.

[Alpine85]

Agree with the lines in the last picture, there has to be growth at the base for the current year. So either 7 or 8, depending on how much credit is given to the broomed off portion.
If Govt claims the first ring at the tip is actually the first years growth, they had better have supporting evidence from rams in the same area sporting similar size lamb tips, with similar large circumference

Reaaly surprised Geist would suggest that maybe two or more years are broomed off.

They called that ring closest to the tip the 1st year bulge and the next ring the 2nd year. Only thing I find really odd is that gives this kids ram 9 1/2” circumference at his 2nd year. A couple of the heavy 170+ inch rams we’ve killed have the tips so the 2nd year isn’t questionable.The circumference on my rams 2nd year is 6 1/2”. So I just struggle with how this ram would have 3” bigger 2nd year circumference compared to two rams with 15-15.25 inch bases.

Then if we look at the kids rams growth between 2 and 3, he grew 5 1/2” in length. That kind of growth is typical of a ram between 3rd and 4th years. A ram with superior growth would be 8+” between his 2nd to 3rd year as these are always the strong growth in length years ?

[ryanb]

I think there is little room to debate whether this ram it's any age other than 8... But the fact remains, when you shoot a ram based on implied missing annulus you take your chances. Not sure how the bios are arguing that this ram could be 7...

[Alpine85]

I think there is little room to debate whether this ram it's any age other than 8... But the fact remains, when you shoot a ram based on implied missing annulus you take your chances. Not sure how the bios are arguing that this ram could be 7...

We always go full curl or 9 when aging, least it gives you a buffer in case something is off. Thinking of Shooting an 8 year old non full curl ram personally gives me worms.

[REMINGTON JIM]

Well there is one thing I have learned from the thread I have no interest in becoming a sheep hunter way too complicated :roll:

The ONLY thing complicted is the F & W dept of BC ! WAY ! WAY ! WAY ! to many rules and regulations now a days ! Phucking Ridiculous ! :mad: RJ

[boxhitch]

The ONLY thing complicted is the F & W dept of BC ! WAY ! WAY ! WAY ! to many rules and regulations now a days ! Phucking Ridiculous ! :mad: RJnow you're just sounding like a fudd ))

[Bobfl]

I would have shot that also. What a travisty call by professionals in the field that are supposed too know the rules. shame on you mr co and mr biologist

[REMINGTON JIM]

I would have shot that also. What a travisty call by professionals in the field that are supposed too know the rules. shame on you mr co and mr biologist

YUP ! me too ! :wink: RJ

[Bugle M In]

We always go full curl or 9 when aging, least it gives you a buffer in case something is off. Thinking of Shooting an 8 year old non full curl ram personally gives me worms.

After reading the OP's info/story, I would remember to take your advice if I were to go, that's for sure.
But, I also understand why some say they would have taken it, as the Bios saying it's not 8 is ridiculous!
The only thing the kid got wrong and the ministry officials hammered him is because of what is
"written in ink" in the regs.

Think about it:
You cant shoot a 8 year old ram, that's not the issue.
But, only if all the annuli are showing????
Hmmmmm??

I do appreciate the OP bringing up on HBC.
Sure has been an interesting thread.

[Bugle M In]

In a way, the regs shouldn't say 8 years of age.
If they expect to "see 8 annuli rings", than it might have to be a 10 year old if it's broomed a lot!

But than again, the Ministry says hunters should be really careful when counting annuli rings because
some get confused between false and real rings!

One other thing, I would recommend to everyone to bring the teeth out with you.
For that "just in case" security.

[bighornbob]

One other thing, I would recommend to everyone to bring the teeth out with you.
For that "just in case" security.

Not just a recommendation but its the law to bring a tooth out with you. It was mentioned that the law was changed that year and they never brought the tooth/teeth out.

We were up north that year and only one out of four that we talked too that had killed rams knew about the rule. Most were like oh whatever, i have the horns what do they need teeth for. Even though its stated in the regs.

That being said I dont think they use the teeth for ageing anyway.

BHB

[backcountry99]

That is why the C.I. can only count the annuli he can see when determining the "legal" age as contrasted with "actual" age. Start counting annuli you can not see and every short sheep become an argument based on opinion. The current system works amazingly well and relatively few short under "legal" age rams are confiscated. The variety of conflicting "opinions" offered in this thread is what you get when people abandon a clearly stated definition of "legal" and seek to apply in an inconsistent manner opinions based on a very wide range of unsubstantiated fact, observations and conditions that are not constant across the complete population of sheep or hunters.

Just use the rule: If I can not see an annuli it does not exist and never existed and can not be used to "Legally" age the sheep in question. The sheep is "legally" only as old as you the CI and the CO can count existing annuli.

This is right on the money, you can’t count it don’t shoot it! And if people push this rule we will loose the right to age rams. Will be a full curl only rule

[blackbart]

Great thread to stimulate the conversation. I am not one to recommend shooting on age alone, unless you have a fair buffer - say you think the ram is 10 or eleven. That's just me though.

[Rampager]

I don't see anywhere in the regs that states a ram has to have 8 visible true annuli to be legally considered 8 years old. I have always considered "evidenced by" to mean that the location and pattern of the visible annuli can be evidence for what was there before the horns were broomed.

I am no expert by any means but it seems experts do consider missing annuli when aging sheep. Slide 10 with presenter comment.
https://wildsheepsociety.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/Understanding-Sheep-Aging-Andrew-Walker.pdf

This is a good eye opener though.

Thank you for linking to the presentation made by the same region 6 biologist who said the ram isn't legal, where he DOES give credit for missing annuli in a broomed ram when aging. This infuriating inconsistency is what I was referring to in my post #60.

[40incher]

All of the support for the boneheads at MFLNRO, or whatever their new title is (perhaps MFLNRO2 to keep up with all the fluff) is just splitting hairs!

What other species in B.C. is "managed", and I use that term very loosely, on the basis that you can hunt only males and they need to be 8 years old (defined by a bureaucrat that has likely never hunted sheep) or with a horn tip that rises above the bridge of the nose?? This is all about creating "trophies" that bring in $50,000.00 U.S. a pop. The charges laid against this kid are an embarrassment to the gatekeepers at many levels.

And, therein lies the rub with Mr. Expert Witness who just wishes to be so self important. The sheep guides will lay it on heavy when millions of dollars of broomed rams can no longer be legally taken in any given 6 to 8-week period of each year. The BCWF won't say a peep of course. Too concerned about looking bad to their perceived strength.

C'mon now!! If it wasn't for the G.O.'s influence we would no longer be hunting sheep at all. Calling any species a "trophy" is a huge mistake however, as we have learned from the cancellation of grizzly bear hunting. Perhaps that will change over time.

So let's learn one lesson from this event … and realize what the real threat is. It is not the DIY resident hunters, the guided hunters or the F.N.'s. It is a bureaucracy (public service by definition) that is out of control, turning each group against one another … while the hawks in the anti-use movement take it all in and use it to stop all hunting.

Time to get on the same page!

[Jack Russell]

All of the support for the boneheads at MFLNRO, or whatever their new title is (perhaps MFLNRO2 to keep up with all the fluff) is just splitting hairs!

What other species in B.C. is "managed", and I use that term very loosely, on the basis that you can hunt only males and they need to be 8 years old (defined by a bureaucrat that has likely never hunted sheep) or with a horn tip that rises above the bridge of the nose?? This is all about creating "trophies" that bring in $50,000.00 U.S. a pop. The charges laid against this kid are an embarrassment to the gatekeepers at many levels.

And, therein lies the rub with Mr. Expert Witness who just wishes to be so self important. The sheep guides will lay it on heavy when millions of dollars of broomed rams can no longer be legally taken in any given 6 to 8-week period of each year. The BCWF won't say a peep of course. Too concerned about looking bad to their perceived strength.

C'mon now!! If it wasn't for the G.O.'s influence we would no longer be hunting sheep at all. Calling any species a "trophy" is a huge mistake however, as we have learned from the cancellation of grizzly bear hunting. Perhaps that will change over time.

So let's learn one lesson from this event … and realize what the real threat is. It is not the DIY resident hunters, the guided hunters or the F.N.'s. It is a bureaucracy (public service by definition) that is out of control, turning each group against one another … while the hawks in the anti-use movement take it all in and use it to stop all hunting.

Time to get on the same page!

Perfect. The bureaucracy is most definitely out of control - top to bottom.

[REMINGTON JIM]

Well SAID 40incher ! RJ

[boxhitch]

40, you touched on several issues in one post, not going to quote it and give it traction

You probably already know why the regs select for a sustainable hunt, why try to muddy up that one ?

[NMO]

40, you touched on several issues in one post, not going to quote it and give it traction

You probably already know why the regs select for a sustainable hunt, why try to muddy up that one ?

Yeah, lost me on that one. 8yr is a sustainable management tool to ensure that there's a viable breeding population of mature rams. Full curl ruling I don't care as much for. There are some who are happy to pop a tight 6yr or 7yr over the nose whenever they see them, which is not a sustainable practice.

[Bugle M In]

Yeah, lost me on that one. 8yr is a sustainable management tool to ensure that there's a viable breeding population of mature rams. Full curl ruling I don't care as much for. There are some who are happy to pop a tight 6yr or 7yr over the nose whenever they see them, which is not a sustainable practice.

Your point is valid about full curl 6-7 year olds.
I think the only reason for the "full curl" id s there is a better chance for the average sheep hunter or
newb to get that right over aging.

Sheep are an oddity really compared to other species when hunting.
Far harder to tell if its legal either way at times.
Even Goats for many are hard to define between gender.

Different than just counting points.
I just think this is one of those "borderline" situations that should have been let go, imo.
There are many other instances where the hunters were totally out to lunch and should be fined etc.

Sure does make one think twice about hunting sheep.
Also makes me wonder how many sheep might get left to rot because a hunter has 2nd doubts suddenly
after they inspect it hard and wondering if the Inspector will see it as they did?
Just like in this OP.

I would like to see much stiffer penalties for poachers and people who just don't care, and there is more
than enough of them.
(Even know of an outfitter that kept shooting nannies just to make money until they got stopped)
But then there are these cases that are on the borderline.
Just glad it wasn't me and I am getting too old to do that hunt anymore.

[71_camaro]

Geist is the premier expert in the world.
INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY

[40incher]

40, you touched on several issues in one post, not going to quote it and give it traction

You probably already know why the regs select for a sustainable hunt, why try to muddy up that one ?


Not trying to muddy anything … if anything let's have some clarity.

Do you think a guided rich dude would have had that ram taken away? That's not a rhetorical question BTW! … but let's pick on a young resident hunter to make a bureaucratic point.

And just another quick question … what has sustainability got to do with it? You must be familiar with the "Skeena Model", which has allowed for ridiculously high quotas in Region 6 that have nothing to do with sustainability.

To be clear … the ram is legal and was a good one to take. Problem is, the bureaucrats want to further their personal agenda with least risk.

I hope the family of the young man pursues an appeal of this B.S.

[kitnayakwa77]

I think that by the letter of the law and setting precedence, the right call was made. Sure this ram likely was 8 yr old, but giving it a pass on annuli that are not visible, and count 7 wouldnt be right. Seems like nit picking, but it would set up case law for the next questionable ram that is shot and goes to court. In terms of character attacks, sheep guides are sheep guides, biologists are biologists, good ones and bad ones in both groups. In terms of all the guys saying they would shoot this ram, maybe think again? Also, if the incisor had been pulled there would have been further evidence of age for a judge to make a decision on, but this wasnt done either. I think its a fair but unfortunate decision.

[Romain]

I think that by the letter of the law and setting precedence, the right call was made. Sure this ram likely was 8 yr old, but giving it a pass on annuli that are not visible, and count 7 wouldnt be right. Seems like nit picking, but it would set up case law for the next questionable ram that is shot and goes to court. In terms of character attacks, sheep guides are sheep guides, biologists are biologists, good ones and bad ones in both groups. In terms of all the guys saying they would shoot this ram, maybe think again? Also, if the incisor had been pulled there would have been further evidence of age for a judge to make a decision on, but this wasnt done either. I think its a fair but unfortunate decision.

Take a mental note from now on how many mounted rams you see with only 7 visible annuli. It's a fact that ram was over 8 years old and taking it away is an absolute crime. Biologists are scientists, and the scientific studies and measurements taken from years of harvested rams are meant to help with learning how these sheep grow and age. Science points to the fact that ram is 8 years old and anyone who knows sheep well will understand that. It's good that many people on here would not shoot a ram like that because there is NO room for error when judging an 8 year old who doesn't break the nose. If there was a false annuli we would have been screwed on an under age ram, however it was plain to those that watched him for 2 days that they were not false annuli, and that was confirmed by the biologists. Again, risky call but in this case the correct one. What is disgusting is that a group of Provincial Biologists can look at a horn that is broomed off 6" around and say that it is a lamb tip and that the first visible annuli is only 1 year. This case would indeed set a precedent for correct aging of CI'd sheep across the Province and that is why the Government had to defend it's own even though they know that they are going against the same aging rules that they profess to use.

[Romain]

https://i.imgur.com/xaWBhS3.png?1
Here's an example of a ram that I shot off of the same mountain as the OP ram. Same cohort, same genetics. Count the growth rings and the growth pattern. Exactly the same. My ram was CI'd in FSJ by someone who knows how to age sheep and it was aged at 8 years old, the same age as the ram they call 7. The ONLY difference here is that the OP ram is broomed and because of that they shave off an entire year even though science and compelling evidence shows otherwise.

[Bugle M In]

^^^^Yup, like you say, it does look like the same ram identically except for brooming
(Really nice ram by the way!)

I guess the only thing with the OP ram is it would have to have waited another season, hit 9 years of
age, just to have 8 rings visible, and thus legal per the Regs.
(Even thou it is an 8 year old)

[whitlers]

That picture really puts it into perspective

[backcountry99]

^^^^Yup, like you say, it does look like the same ram identically except for brooming
(Really nice ram by the way!)

I guess the only thing with the OP ram is it would have to have waited another season, hit 9 years of
age, just to have 8 rings visible, and thus legal per the Regs.
(Even thou it is an 8 year old)

i don’t think anybody is arguing that the ram is not 8 but like stated this opens up a whole can of worms. If you can’t count 8 rings don’t shoot it! Cut and dry

[walks with deer]

i would not have shot that ram...he did not make the legal definitions. should have gone and found a different one.

[Wild one]

Spoke to some of the sheep hunters I know 1 being a guide all said they would not shoot that sheep on age because it broomed off it’s physical evidence of age. Not one doubts it’s an 8year old ram but with the evidence broomed off its not a shooter. I know for a fact the rams they have taken on age have physical rings

Odds are I call the 2 CIs I know they will tell me the same thing

This thread does show the definition of 8 year old ram in the regs needs to be made clear

[bighornbob]

As it sits now the aging of horns was brought in so guys could shoot 10-11 year olds that may never be above the bridge of the hose. It was not meant to shoot an eight year old that has broomed off his lamb tip regardless how big the ram is. So this thread and other people complaining to the government will get the law changed to say that the horn must have 8 annuli showing for it to be legal.
The problem that is going to happen is people will start shooting rams on what they think is an annuli and you will get sheep shot that have 8 rings but not true annuli. People will fight these in court and the government to avoid going to court on whats a ring and whats not will simply eliminate the ageing of rams. Can you say Spences bridge?
Now guys are complaining that they are seeing mature rams that are 10+ years old and will never be above the bridge of the nose.

BHB

[Bugle M In]

I thought about it last night afterwards.

I know I have come across a bull elk, who was a 6pt bull on both sides.
But this bull had broken off his 5th point (virtually clean off) on his left side.
And you know, we almost screwed up and hadn't seen that also on his right side, his brow tine was missing as well.

So, by "legal definition" the bull was "not legal to take" as it wasn't "technically a 6pt".
(Even though genetically and by age, he was a 6x6 a few weeks earlier)

So this isn't just an issue specific to sheep.
We have the same "legalities" to deal with on other species as well.

The only difference that I am reading on this thread is that every inspector/CO would not allow a 5x5 bull
be taken even with broken of tines.
Sounds like depending on what inspector is involved with the sheep, the outcome cane be different.
(Though, if you stick to the regs, it shouldn't be different outcomes)

[kitnayakwa77]

I think the question a judge has to ask is: is there doubt as to the legality of the sheep as defined by law?

In this case, the law states: "full curl thinhorn ram mountain sheep" means any thinhorn ram mountain sheep that has attained the age of 8 years as evidenced by true horn annuli as determined by the regional manager or designate, or whose horn tip, when viewed squarely from the side at right angles to the sagittal plane of the skull, extends dorsally beyond the nose bridge plane;

So while I agree that the sheep more than likely is 8 years old, it does not meet the full curl physical definition and is not aged at 8, as evidenced by true horn annuli.
If the government started giving a pass on something as important as what defines a legal sheep from an illegal sheep, as stated by law, then that is a slippery slope to go down.

I am not debating on assumed age (8.5), but I wouldn't have shot that ram myself.

Maybe the law needs to be re-written, but I am not sure how it could be made clearer. Unfortunate situation though.

[Bugle M In]

As it sits now the aging of horns was brought in so guys could shoot 10-11 year olds that may never be above the bridge of the hose. It was not meant to shoot an eight year old that has broomed off his lamb tip regardless how big the ram is. So this thread and other people complaining to the government will get the law changed to say that the horn must have 8 annuli showing for it to be legal.
The problem that is going to happen is people will start shooting rams on what they think is an annuli and you will get sheep shot that have 8 rings but not true annuli. People will fight these in court and the government to avoid going to court on whats a ring and whats not will simply eliminate the ageing of rams. Can you say Spences bridge?
Now guys are complaining that they are seeing mature rams that are 10+ years old and will never be above the bridge of the nose.

BHB

I think BHB's post here says it best and "WHY" the regs and law is written the way it is.
It's there to allow very old rams with heavy brooms to be taken using the annuli.
But, the annuli have to be "present".

I appreciate the OP bringing this topic forward and sharing it.
I know it is not always easy to do so here and if in the wrong can lead to being lambasted at times.
It really gave a lot to think about and more importantly, to be aware of.

Just FYI, I don't begrudged the lad that he took the ram and ended up being in the wrong.
It happens and we all can learn from someone else's mistakes.
(obvious it was accidental and they took their time and believed they were right)
After all, it could have been one of us just as easily by not understanding the full scope of the Regs
and definitions by law.

[porthunter]

Just out of curiosity, I don't have much of an opinion on it personally but what is peoples opinion on the "Double Broomed" rule for hunting dall sheep in Alaska?

For anyone who doesn't know, a ram is legal if both tips on his horns are broken/broomed.

[Bugle M In]

Just out of curiosity, I don't have much of an opinion on it personally but what is peoples opinion on the "Double Broomed" rule for hunting dall sheep in Alaska?

For anyone who doesn't know, a ram is legal if both tips on his horns are broken/broomed.

It's basically the same rule:

"A ram with the tips of both horns broken, or broomed. A ram at least 8 years old as determined by counting annual horn rings and segments. ... If a ram's horns are not legal based on degree of curl or broken tips, you are responsible for counting at least 8 true annuli before attempting to take the ram."

[porthunter]

https://i.imgur.com/Ap6tPxV.jpg
It's basically the same rule:

"A ram with the tips of both horns broken, or broomed. A ram at least 8 years old as determined by counting annual horn rings and segments. ... If a ram's horns are not legal based on degree of curl or broken tips, you are responsible for counting at least 8 true annuli before attempting to take the ram."

I dont think it is. The rule of "double broomed" rams is not affected by age or annuli. If a ram has 2 broomed horns hes legal as per their law, regardless of visible annuli.

[RJHunter]

I attended a sheep hunting seminar at Backcountry in Fort St John a few years ago. Some great presentations by guides, biologists and others. On of the big take always for me was judging a legal sheep by counting the rings on the crown. Is that a bad practice? It seems to work well however based on many of these comments it sounds like it could easily result in an illegal ram. I still think there is room to interpret "evidenced by" but am now second guessing my understanding of this.

[Kddowds]

I attended a sheep hunting seminar at Backcountry in Fort St John a few years ago. Some great presentations by guides, biologists and others. On of the big take always for me was judging a legal sheep by counting the rings on the crown. Is that a bad practice? It seems to work well however based on many of these comments it sounds like it could easily result in an illegal ram. I still think there is room to interpret "evidenced by" but am now second guessing my understanding of this.

"4 in the crown, knock it down" generally means the ram is 8 however you should still count every ring. If this ram had one tip then the rule would work. Even tho this ram is 8.5 clearly they decided to age it at 7. Feel bad for the kid.

[whitlers]

"4 in the crown, knock it down" generally means the ram is 8 however you should still count every ring. If this ram had one tip then the rule would work. Even tho this ram is 8.5 clearly they decided to age it at 7. Feel bad for the kid.

Can you explain what the the crown is?

[Kddowds]

Can you explain what the the crown is?
From the base of horn down to the eye and then 90 degrees straight back, if that ring is straight across or slanted upwards and you can count four rings or more above it then the sheep will be 8+. It's a cool trick and if you know how to use it it's accurate but it's always good to count them all! Hope that makes sense

[Bugle M In]

https://i.imgur.com/Ap6tPxV.jpg

I dont think it is. The rule of "double broomed" rams is not affected by age or annuli. If a ram has 2 broomed horns hes legal as per their law, regardless of visible annuli.

Yes, I believe you are right, it isn't the same.
IF the OP's ram was taken in Alaska, it would have been legal.
(Out of Alaskan Regs):
A legal ram under a full-curl regulation is:
• A full-curl ram, whose tip of at least one horn has grown through
360
o of a circle described by the outer surface of the horn, as
viewed from the side (Figure 1).
• A ram with the tips of both horns broken which means the lamb
tip is completely absent. Horn tips that are chipped or cracked
are not considered broken if any portion of the lamb tip is present
(Figure 2).
Lamb tip characteristics:
• a length of less than four inches;
• the inside surface of the lamb tip is distinctly concave when
compared to the remainder of the horn;
• the lamb tip is the section of a horn that is grown during the
first six months of a sheep’s life and is the section of horn
distal of the first annulus, which is the swelling of the horn
that forms during the first winter of life.
• A ram at least 8 years old as determined by counting annual
horn rings and segments (Figure 3). If a ram’s horns are not legal
based on degree of curl or broken tips, you are responsible for
counting at least 8 true annuli before attempting to take the ram.
It is difficult and ill-advised to age a ram in the field by only count
ing
horn rings because of false annuli and narrow horn segments
on older rams
.

[porthunter]

Yes, I believe you are right, it isn't the same.
IF the OP's ram was taken in Alaska, it would have been legal.
(Out of Alaskan Regs):
A legal ram under a full-curl regulation is:
• A full-curl ram, whose tip of at least one horn has grown through
360
o of a circle described by the outer surface of the horn, as
viewed from the side (Figure 1).
• A ram with the tips of both horns broken which means the lamb
tip is completely absent. Horn tips that are chipped or cracked
are not considered broken if any portion of the lamb tip is present
(Figure 2).
Lamb tip characteristics:
• a length of less than four inches;
• the inside surface of the lamb tip is distinctly concave when
compared to the remainder of the horn;
• the lamb tip is the section of a horn that is grown during the
first six months of a sheep’s life and is the section of horn
distal of the first annulus, which is the swelling of the horn
that forms during the first winter of life.
• A ram at least 8 years old as determined by counting annual
horn rings and segments (Figure 3). If a ram’s horns are not legal
based on degree of curl or broken tips, you are responsible for
counting at least 8 true annuli before attempting to take the ram.
It is difficult and ill-advised to age a ram in the field by only count
ing
horn rings because of false annuli and narrow horn segments
on older rams
.


Had me second guessing myself... had to go back and double check LOL

I'm curious what peoples opinions would be on a law like this, it would have proved effective in this case.

[LBM]

Had me second guessing myself... had to go back and double check LOL

I'm curious what peoples opinions would be on a law like this, it would have proved effective in this case.
Yes it would have worked in this case but there is cases in alaska were it hasnt were one of thge horns wasnt broomed enough etc
so same thing could happen. People just have to learn they dont have to shoot something and be sure that if they do it is legal
under they regs. The EK used to also be full curl or 8 seen a fair number of rams shot that people said they thought they were
8 so that rule was taken away now its full curl, still rams are shot that people say they thought they were full curl. Some have taken
more then one short ram, some of the storys of how they were full curl before they were shot then ended up short are a little crazy as well.
Watched a guy shoot a young ram one day he had a LEH ewe tag thought it was a ewe. Another guy shoots a 3/4 curl lamb tip ram in
a full curl area.
Im with BV I think certain areas have to go on LEH, and there is some talk that more may happen in the EK but may just be talk.

[pro 111]

What I see is 7.5 years shown by anual growth. Most likely the ram is 8.5 years old but its not full curl and it does not clearly show 8 anuli? It would be one of those rams that if you had of shot it you would be walking up to it with your fingers crossed. Many of the sheep in this area have thick bases at an early age in life. But the regs say 8 anuli or full curl.. Thats how you keep sheep on the sidehill. Let em walk if your not 100% sure..
Legaly I would have to go with the CI.

[backcountry99]

As it sits now the aging of horns was brought in so guys could shoot 10-11 year olds that may never be above the bridge of the hose. It was not meant to shoot an eight year old that has broomed off his lamb tip regardless how big the ram is. So this thread and other people complaining to the government will get the law changed to say that the horn must have 8 annuli showing for it to be legal.
The problem that is going to happen is people will start shooting rams on what they think is an annuli and you will get sheep shot that have 8 rings but not true annuli. People will fight these in court and the government to avoid going to court on whats a ring and whats not will simply eliminate the ageing of rams. Can you say Spences bridge?
Now guys are complaining that they are seeing mature rams that are 10+ years old and will never be above the bridge of the nose.

BHB

bingo!!!!!!!

[kitnayakwa77]

https://bchuntingblog.com/blog/2012/06/16/judging-stones-sheep-in-the-field/

Some good info, context and photos in this link for people just getting into sheep hunting

[.264winmag]

Another reason to deal with people from stone country for aging and taxi work. Not the first age ‘botching’ I’ve seen on here that were aged by those who don’t look over dozens of rams a season for decades. Too bad, was a nice ram...

[bigwhiteys]

https://bchuntingblog.com/blog/2012/...-in-the-field/


Some good info, context and photos in this link for people just getting into sheep hunting


Thank you for sharing this. I made it quite a few years ago now, it's due for some updating.

[eatram]

CO's and bios can get it wrong. Back in 2002, we got a couple of Stones. Decent ones, but not book worthy. The inspector (back then it was at the ministry branch in surrey), said to me, "so where did you get this Bighorn?" I smiled and told him, close to the Yukon border. Then he insisted, where did I get this Rocky? I've hunted thinhorns religiously for the last 20 years, and to this day, I still don't know why he thought it was a bighorn....

[Alpine85]

As it sits now the aging of horns was brought in so guys could shoot 10-11 year olds that may never be above the bridge of the hose. It was not meant to shoot an eight year old that has broomed off his lamb tip regardless how big the ram is. So this thread and other people complaining to the government will get the law changed to say that the horn must have 8 annuli showing for it to be legal.
The problem that is going to happen is people will start shooting rams on what they think is an annuli and you will get sheep shot that have 8 rings but not true annuli. People will fight these in court and the government to avoid going to court on whats a ring and whats not will simply eliminate the ageing of rams. Can you say Spences bridge?
Now guys are complaining that they are seeing mature rams that are 10+ years old and will never be above the bridge of the nose.

BHB

Can’t argue any of that!

The annuli with the mud next to it (CI/Bio calling 2nd year) do you find it odd to have a 2nd year with 9 1/2” circumference??
Im just picturing a year old lamb that looks like a Thar.

[Rackmastr]

Another reason to deal with people from stone country for aging and taxi work. Not the first age ‘botching’ I’ve seen on here that were aged by those who don’t look over dozens of rams a season for decades. Too bad, was a nice ram...

I'd gladly use a taxidermist from Cody, Wyoming without hesitation and feel confident even though hes thousands of miles from "stone country". Taxidermy and CI work are not synonymous in my experience.

[.264winmag]

I'd gladly use a taxidermist from Cody, Wyoming without hesitation and feel confident even though hes thousands of miles from "stone country". Taxidermy and CI work are not synonymous in my experience.

Perhaps, but I enjoy a one stop shop. And I would put their taxi skills among the best...

[Rampager]

the reason 'immature' was removed and now it is only tine count. They don't care if one or two fall through the cracks, the tine count is the definative defensable regulation.

Just like this ram. the regs say 'as evidenced by true horn annuli' implying they have to be there to count.
BJ has been giving sheep aging seminars for years at the WSSoBC convention, this has been discussed ad nauseum

Whats also scary about this situation and the posts on CL's FB is all the guys saying they would shoot the same ram.
This isn't the first time a ram like this has been deemed illegal and not the last apparently.
Its not like someone moved the goal posts for this one

With sheep season coming up I got thinking of this thread.

For those interested here is the presentation originally developed and presented by Bill Jex, note page 10 where he publicly advertises a 7-ring broomed ram as legal:

https://wildsheepsociety.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/Understanding-Sheep-Aging-Andrew-Walker.pdf?fbclid=IwAR1CfRQllgpES5sjWB-6YeGU36BSfH8dkUdq3CzwIQBlZJQxZevvKHViIkg

I still don't understand the outcome of the court case. I wonder if this presentation was used as evidence?

[porthunter]

With sheep season coming up I got thinking of this thread.

For those interested here is the presentation originally developed and presented by Bill Jex, note page 10 where he publicly advertises a 7-ring broomed ram as legal:

https://wildsheepsociety.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/Understanding-Sheep-Aging-Andrew-Walker.pdf?fbclid=IwAR1CfRQllgpES5sjWB-6YeGU36BSfH8dkUdq3CzwIQBlZJQxZevvKHViIkg

I still don't understand the outcome of the court case. I wonder if this presentation was used as evidence?

I'm assuming the age given on that ram(9) is based on the rings counted on the other side. You can see in the picture the other side is tipped and would show all annuli, I'd agree with you though that it probably isn't a great example to only show the broomed side of that ram and not both.

[boxhitch]

Here is an interesting video just released, Bill Jex rehashing sheep info

https://www.youtube.com/watch?reload=9&v=pWJA2ZFKz_w&feature=youtu.be&fbclid=IwAR3Ry3GRpjUj2CtJfYxib0OB-FuFzwD0JlCSXlYABEOIK1mUnqyF983uu-M

[Weatherby Fan]

Not wanting to stray too far from the op, but does that work both ways? If a mature bull moose has broken of all but a chunk of one antler, can it be "legally" classed as an immature?

I had an LEH for a spike Bull Moose in the Kootenays, my first day there I come across a spike bull at about 200 yards, give him the Weatherby business and he's down for the count, get up to him and he's a 2 point on one side and a broken off antler on the other side which was the spike I seen, took it in for inspection and the CO raised an eyebrow and was pretty reluctant to aprove it but could not say it wasn't as it had a spike on one side even though it was broken off.

Sure feel bad for the young fellow either way.

[Hunting guy]

How long ago was this spike moose season?

[boxhitch]

"took it in for inspection and the CO raised an eyebrow and was pretty reluctant to aprove it but could not say it wasn't as it had a spike on one side even though it was broken off."

Was he looking for axe or saw marks? :smile:

[Hunting guy]

Isn’t a 2 point moose legal?

[mod7rem]

My brother and I have each taken 7 Stones rams and helped with others. Maybe 20 total. I also have friends that are sheep hunters so I’ve handled many more. Our two biggest rams are 8yr olds and have 15”+ and 16”+ bases and no brooming, with heavy mass from tips to bases. 168.5” and 174+”. The bigger one NOT full curl. The smallest ram is an 11 year old with 12” bases and heavily broomed on both sides. One side still showing the 2nd year annuli and the other side broomed all the way back with just the 3rd year annuli showing. Another is 12 yrs old broomed both sides all the way back to the 2nd yr annuli but still easily breaks the nose bridge. Another is 11 yrs old with both lamb tips intact and no where close to being full curl. The rest are somewhere in between.
These rams run from big and heavy to small and thin but what I find with all these rams is that the diameter at the 2nd yr annuli of the largest ram, is still smaller than the diameter of the 3rd annuli on the smallest thinnest ram. Even though this is probably based on only 30-40 rams, with the horns in hand, there is no way to not know the difference between a 2nd and 3rd yr annuli unless you don’t have much experience/knowledge.
So far the only disagreement with a CI on age was whether the short curl thin ram with both tips was 11 or 12. I think 12 he thought 11. The problem with the age of 11 is that it gives this smallish, short ram a lamb tip that’s nearly 4” long and a 1st yr annuli diameter that’s consistent with 2nd yr annuli diameter of all these other rams, biggest to smallest. Not very likely.
No other disagreements even with rams heavily broomed on both sides, 12 being the oldest.
In my opinion, any CI that is only going to count the annuli that are still visible, lacks experience/knowledge and common sense. But I guess it doesn’t always require experience/knowledge and common sense to follow the “letter of the law”.