Kootney elk

[ratherbefishin]

I understand there are pockets of excellent elk populations in the Kootneys ,but not sure of hunting access.Any local information would be appreciated...

[Islandeer]

I’d agree on that thought.
It’s of elky looking spots and lots that don’t look elky,
both have pockets of elk in them.
Im sure the locals would agree.

[bigneily]

Most areas that had elk still have some elk but the numbers are nowhere near what they used to be . There is bulls to be found but it's tougher

[dakoda62]

Lots of wolves to compete against.

[ratherbefishin]

I saw one picture of an island with about 150 elk on it...’no hunting’

[CranePete]

Perhaps you meant “Kootenay”? Might be elk in the Bull River/Galbraith Creek area. Thinking hard about heading back there this fall.
CranePete

[Husky7mm]

I understand there are pockets of excellent elk populations in the Kootneys ,but not sure of hunting access.Any local information would be appreciated...

That ship has sailed a number of yrs ago. The population was reduced from roughly 20000 elk to about 5000. That is a big difference! I moved away a while back but friends are having a tough go. I would consider trying the peace country instead.

[walks with deer]

lol the peace is shitkicked.

[micus]

I'm a kootenay resident but by no means an experienced or skilled elk hunter. Been skunked 3 years straight. Some guys who I would consider extremely good / consistent and always on bulls aren't getting into them or seeing them last season. Lots of rumors ofkcal guides going like 1 in 10 or 12 clients closing the deal on elk. It's a Tuff go out here man.

[2chodi]

Region 4 harvest



HUNT YEAR
SPECIES
CI
PROV FLAG
WMU
REGION
RESIDENT HUNTERS
RESIDENT DAYS
RESIDENT KILLS
RESIDENT MALE RATIO
RESIDENT FEMALE RATIO
RESIDENT OTHER SEX RATIO
NON-RESIDENT HUNTERS
NON-RESIDENT DAYS
NON-RESIDENT KILLS


2013
ELK
no
0
499
4
7958
88674
1116
0.83
0.16
0.01
201
1262
61


2014
ELK
no
0
499
4
8034
91066
1017
0.83
0.15
0.02
211
1348
45


2015
ELK
no
0
499
4
8590
94385
1351
0.78
0.19
0.03
186
1186
36


2016
ELK
no
0
499
4
8575
97375
1241
0.84
0.15
0.01
137
864
36


2017
ELK
no
0
499
4
7100
79313
692
0.91
0.09
0.01
96
594
20

[ratherbefishin]

Sounds like the elk are on private land

[Bugle M In]

Here's an article to get you started: https://www.columbiavalleypioneer.com/news/east-kootenay-elk-population-drops-50-in-past-decade/

Recently saw the winter counts on elk, and there sure aint many bulls in there, and even worse, 6pt in
the counts.

Are there Elk in the EK, yes.
Some areas traditionally hold more elk than other, but it will hold more hunters as well.
And those "pockets" of elk exist, but most locals know that also, and its a competition every morning to
see who gets in first each day.
If you do know people with private property, your chances go up for sure.
And if people have a good spot that is still holding elk for them, they wont tell you.

But there is a reason why other parts of the province has become over crowded as well now with
elk hunters, and it because things are bad in the EK.

If you are a local, then it's not a big deal to run out the door and hit your favorite spots.
If you have to plan a trip and long drive there, well many have changed their plans.

[sizedoes matter]

Nice try. Stick to fishin

[rocksteady]

Elk numbers are way down to the point of frustration in the EK... no such thing as a slam dunk area. Bad manahement of seasons.. blame wolves.. not true

[Husky7mm]

lol the peace is shitkicked.

The koots is now more shitkicked.....

[cameron0518]

Come on guys...these comments aren't helping him find a great hunting spot. How's he going to find the good spots if nobody tells him?

[RyoTHC]

Try Banff or jasper for the bruisers

[GOLDEN TOP SNIPER]

Shot Out . Sell the Rifle . Sell everything . Buy a cow .

[albravo2]

Somebody hit an elk on the highway in Squamish last week. Friggin' totalled the car, never did see the elk though.

[Husky7mm]

Come on guys...these comments aren't helping him find a great hunting spot. How's he going to find the good spots if nobody tells him?
Ratherbefishin has been around for a long time, this isn't the usual “ hey its my first post, where can I pump an elk, I am not looking for anyones honeyhole....” kind of request. My answer was honest, I am very surprised he did not already know this, its been going down hill for quite some time now lots of info on it too. Sorry man.

[drakfero]

I understand there are pockets of excellent elk populations in the Kootneys ,but not sure of hunting access.Any local information would be appreciated...


after all those fires and wolves i go rather up north. Met a guy couple of years back and he saw in 1 week 1 doe (they shoot her) and 8 grizzlies..
Up to you , but dont waste your time if you dont know local guys..

[Bugle M In]

There is a few theories floating out there as to why many parts of the EK have seen decline in regards to Elk.
Many of whom would say that the noticeable declines started around 2008 (depends n area)
A big one (and it has a lot of merit) , is that the Zone X "over achieved" it's goal.
But make no mistake, they wanted to see big drops in Elk in the lowlands that were becoming Resident Elk.
Which then asks the question, why were they not going back to the high country, especially when it is proven the feed is 4X's more nutritional in Spring/Summer than down low.
And that is where many are putting the weight into Predation causing game to move down low to human populated areas to avoid them.
I know I read a report from a Trapper (not sure if he was a Bio?) who predicted some areas were going to
be in a disastrous state in a few years due to wolves.
(From what I read and he predicted, he was bang on).

So, you have elk avoiding Preds, so they move and stay down low.
Then Zone X takes them out, to the point that there aren't enough elk to look for more fertile ground back
in the high country because it was getting to populated to stay low.

In other words, one was feeding the other.
And boom, a big drop in no time!

And don't forget, some areas have historical larger herds.
The areas were population carried less elk seem to all but have nearly disappeared.
Stupid part was, we implemented a 6pt restriction because we were worried about elk #'s declining in the 90's, mostly due to a "too liberal Cow LEH" for too many years.
So 6pt and a drop in Cow leh was implemented, and things were turning around by the mid 2000's.

What no one was watching was the wolves and other pred #'s.
No one realized that many of the mature bulls were being taken.
And many of the non hunting community were complaining about elk being a nuisance.
Perfect storm and terrible management.

And now, if you read the "fine print", they want to fix the problem...
BUT, just a "little bit".
They are not wanting to have herds of 20-25,000 anymore.
More like bump up estimates of less than 7000 head to "maybe" 12,000 head ...AT BEST!!

Don't expect that kind of management to make success rates get much better!!

[Bugle M In]

If any members from the East Kootenay Wildlife Association (EKWA) has the 2017-18 Rocky Mountain Trench Elk Inventory, it sure would be nice to post it up or a link to a .pdf.

(I had it, but lost it:x)

What I can tell most HBC members is:

1) The lack of mature 6pt bulls in the counts was "scary"!
2) The low #'s of young bulls was not great either!
3) Calf Recruitment was sad looking (I am not sure what they are to be per 100 cows, but it looked bad).

Hopefully someone can post it!!?
(Although I never figured out how to put up a pdf on this site anyways, if I still had it)

[338win mag]

Zone X "over achieved" its goal, any idea's as to how that happened?

[Bugle M In]

I think they wanted to go as low as 8,000, but now they say 12,000 is a better number.
So, under 7000 is to me "over achieving".

Here is what found from EKWA FB site:
(also, when it came to bulls per 100 cows, I remember >6pt being low from those bulls.)
And how old are those 6pt bulls?? (if it matters?)

2018 EAST KOOTENAY ELK SURVEY RESULTS
An aerial inventory game count was completed this winter for elk in the East Kootenay (below 1200m elev).
Here's what we learned as a stakeholder on the Kootenay Wildlife Hunting Advisory Committee:
East Kootenay Elk (MUs 4-02 to 4-04, 4-20 to 4-22, 4-24 to 4-26)
Population estimate (total elk)
2018: 6700 to 6900 elk
2008: 14,115 elk
Approx. 50% decline in 10 years.
2018 survey also showed:
Calves per 100 cows: 38
Bulls per hundred cows: 14
Other things reported to us:
Bull harvest appears to have been increasing even though the population was decreasing. (Final # for the licensed hunter bull harvest is not yet complete)
Spike bull harvest is estimated to account for ~25% of the bull harvest
Illegal bull elk take (5 pts and smaller) from self reports and abandoned kills could potentially account for another ~5% on top of the total licensed hunter bull harvest.
The only proposed regulation changes are:
Eliminate spike bull season
Reduce/eliminate cow LEH tags.
There is still no plan to recover elk and no objectives for the elk population or hunter harvest

[Bugle M In]

Still missing the " 6pt or greater" in the count that I saw, but shows some of the issue.
Also doesn't show how many were under 6pt taken.

https://i.imgur.com/QLWP9Q2.jpg

[Bugle M In]

Last season I had the opportunity to "cover a lot of ground" and I was lucky to be in there with some heavy snowfall that week, which really helps to "see the sign".
We covered a lot of watersheds, 1 plus 3 other decent ones that flow into it.
The best we counted was probably less than 30 elk combined from the sign.
they were grouped together in a few small groups, the largest being a group of appr. 18 in 1 band.
I did talk to the GO a couple of times since, and he was in after us, did a lot of hunting in those areas, and he agreed, that a count of no more than 30 elk is probably accurate.
This is an area that is not heavy in elk like other areas, but there should be at least 200 head in those valleys, if not more!
That's how bad some areas are, and yes, the closer to town and private land, the better the #'s to hunt.
Just expect it to be crowded and highly competitive.
South in the EK is better than North, but go if you like the view!
Don't go if you want "action", as that is a role of the dice, and yes you can be lucky, and hit the right time and right spot, but its not a 50/50 opportunity each season as it used to be. (at least for me).
And removing Cow and young bulls from the hunt will happen soon and "NO", it will not help.
Preds and over logging and beetle kill have caused the bigger issue.
6pt restriction was a joke and just gave some a false sense of security!
I don't think they wou;s have reduced cow leh in the late 90's down to 1, if they had done a better job in the 90's not allowing 500 permits in many mu's and had been more realistic and have kept it to 50 per mu?.
But what was all these restrictions for when we don't manage the habitat and preds and allow special interest groups to cull elk thru zone x hunts and allow others to build all over prime winter habitat.
And the logging in the right areas is highly beneficial, but the cut block right next to it can be just as devastating and to not have hardly any mature growth around is ridiculous and can not be helping elk avoid preds. (and why they are staying "in/close to towns")
Many issues to be fixed, not just more regs again.
Lots of money needed.
Worst thing, the policy going forward is not going to help much, as they don't want elk to be higher than
12000 head from my reading so far.
We need to push for a totally different strategy, and not allow the ministry etc to cave to special interests
"ANY LONGER"!!

[wideopenthrottle]

Here's an article to get you started: https://www.columbiavalleypioneer.com/news/east-kootenay-elk-population-drops-50-in-past-decade/

Recently saw the winter counts on elk, and there sure aint many bulls in there, and even worse, 6pt in
the counts.

Are there Elk in the EK, yes.
Some areas traditionally hold more elk than other, but it will hold more hunters as well.
And those "pockets" of elk exist, but most locals know that also, and its a competition every morning to
see who gets in first each day.
If you do know people with private property, your chances go up for sure.
And if people have a good spot that is still holding elk for them, they wont tell you.

But there is a reason why other parts of the province has become over crowded as well now with
elk hunters, and it because things are bad in the EK.

If you are a local, then it's not a big deal to run out the door and hit your favorite spots.
If you have to plan a trip and long drive there, well many have changed their plans.

especially since the 2 doe limit is gone...it was worth it for 4 hunters to come back with 8 almost guaranteed deer and an elk maybe...not so much of
a guarantee to get 4 does and 4 bucks...the koot should be seeing less pressure as of late

[Moose Guide]

Almost no elk left here, mulies are non existent and our whitetails have been decimated by a very generous doe season. I will be going north for moose in august and hunting hard for elk here at home all season, but it looks very dismal. If you find a pocket of elk, you best keep it to yourself!

[Bugle M In]

I can tell you for a fact that where I hunt elk, in it's hey day, there where trucks driving up and down (before the road closures where enacted) all day long, and many.
After the road closures, there were appr. 20 hunters plus the GO clients, and some where sheep hunters who would take elk if it fell in their laps.
For the past 15 years, it was just us for 1 to 2 week long hunts, and the last group of 3 hunters bailed 6 years ago now.
(sure there is still the odd road hunter from time to time, but not even daily).
This area is not "being shot to shit" like some say.
(maybe some areas have high pressure to produce, but not this are)
This is "mismanagement" at its best.
Not dealing with Preds and not dealing with the main effects of beetle kill and using logging (overlogging) to combat it (which isn't the truth, it's about getting the $ out before it is killed).
These are the real problems.
We all but did away with the cow leh (only 1 permit per mu now!, and they don't shut it right down because future attempts to re-open it would be near impossible and a real challenge, even if we do get our shit together and elk do come back)
Zone X type hunts will be done with and so will young bull hunts with bow.

The rest is what we get the ministry to correct properly thru Pred management (F the caribou policy by limiting food sources for wolves, just cull them, and get our GBear hunt back and actually add more permits and a fall hunt)
Get on the forestry sector issues, as these policies and amount of harvesting is not helping.
Get land assembled where all other private interests from developers to ranchers and icbc have no f'n say
in it.
Implement all these changes in the late 90's, from basically eliminating cow leh permits and imposing a 6pt restriction and no predator culling, and to see that thrown to the side because of private interests and zone x in 2008 or so and watching the elk #'s drop off drastically in 10 years "should be the smoking gun"!

People in the Peace Region, expect a further increase in hunters in the next few years, if there weren't enough already.
Same goes for LEH odds going up due to many now applying to those type of elk hunts.
This is what happens when one area goes to hell.
And is why the WK saw more elk hunters when it became GOS.
It would have all worked out, if the EK Elk had been monitored and managed properly.
Blaming other hunters is just plain stupid for the declines "this time around".
(the 90's yes, possibly to a point, but not since 2008 and these declines)

[huntingfamily]

I believe it will be very similar in the peace region in no time.
I spoke with a local wildlife bio recently about elk leh numbers. They said in 2008 they did a survey and there were around 10,000 elk in the region. The plan was to reduce the population by 50% with leh, so around 5,000 elk. Leh began.
10 years later they did another study in 2018 and determined there were 4,700 elk, so about 50% of what they had. Objective accomplished?
Apparently not as this years elk leh actually has increased from a total of 1,000 last year to 1,250 this year.
It's frustrating as this is a late season hunt when they are most vulnerable also. Personally we have watched a steady and rather rapid decline in elk numbers in the peace.

[Bugle M In]

^^^^ I think your concerns/opinions are right.
They are doing the same thing up there, as was done in the EK.

What people have to realize (and I am waking up to this)
Is that our Minstry is NOT trying to make for "better hunting oppurtunities" and thus higher success rates thru "growing more game"

What they are actually doing is catering to the Private Sectors.
Developers, ICBC, Ranchers and Forestry.
They are trying to lower the "PROBLEM" of game, like elk, from areas that the private sector has issues with.

That is why you are seeing high cow leh permits.
And yes, many are cluing in that going to the Peace has a better chance of success when elk hunting right now.
But, in a short time, this could go south real fast too!

And the WK hunters blame the WK elk hunt going south because it went from LEH to GOS.
The truth is, the GOS is fine in the WK.
The problem is, you needed to have a good healthy and stable population of elk in the EK!!

If the elk #'s in the EK were good all along and growing, then very few EK hunters would have switched to the WK.
And many now do concentrate hunting of elk in the EK/WK border, as #'s are better there.
But for how much longer??
As it dries up east of the trench, expect more pressure by locals looking for those elk in what for some are right now "productive honey holes".

It might have been good for a few in pockets in the EK, but eventually others figure it out, and it dries up as well.
Then it doesn't matter "how HARDCORE" you are.
If they are not there, they are not there!
Walk all you want.
I have plenty of boots worn out with no souls.
No one needs to tell me I don't get out there and hit it hard.

[ursusbait]

Here's an article to get you started: https://www.columbiavalleypioneer.com/news/east-kootenay-elk-population-drops-50-in-past-decade/

Recently saw the winter counts on elk, and there sure aint many bulls in there, and even worse, 6pt in
the counts.

Are there Elk in the EK, yes.
Some areas traditionally hold more elk than other, but it will hold more hunters as well.
And those "pockets" of elk exist, but most locals know that also, and its a competition every morning to
see who gets in first each day.
If you do know people with private property, your chances go up for sure.
And if people have a good spot that is still holding elk for them, they wont tell you.

But there is a reason why other parts of the province has become over crowded as well now with
elk hunters, and it because things are bad in the EK.

If you are a local, then it's not a big deal to run out the door and hit your favorite spots.
If you have to plan a trip and long drive there, well many have changed their plans.

Nailed it!

[Bobfl]

ive hunted the bull for 15 yrs and the pop has more than declined, The fires made it even worse, This is the first yr I'll be moving to another area, senery is beautiful if you want a camping trip, hunting is the shits not here but everywhere. The stats for elk in kooteneys came out two weeks ago. The pop is 3000 elk in kooteneys now compared too 30000 in 1988

[#49]

Im not sure a GOS was the best thing for the WK.Why would you spend years developing a world class herds only to open it up to a complete GOS and kick those herds all to shit.I believe iy was nothing more than a goverment cash grab everybody buying tags,fuel and gear $$$$ maybe Im off base but?

[HarryToolips]

^^^^a 6 pt season isn't going to hurt them, not usually from what I'm told...it's the cow LEH in some areas, in conjunction with higher pred numbers, habitat fragmentation etc where you will see great declines on the herds.... again, we need $$ to be thrown into wildlife, and we need it fast...

[Bugle M In]

Im not sure a GOS was the best thing for the WK.Why would you spend years developing a world class herds only to open it up to a complete GOS and kick those herds all to shit.I believe iy was nothing more than a goverment cash grab everybody buying tags,fuel and gear $$$$ maybe Im off base but?

If things had been done right, meaning, the EK herds were well managed, than having the WK open was
just "more opportunity" for all.
To me, nothing wrong with "spreading out hunters in the province".
No reason for the EK to carry the brunt of elk hunting.

If managed properly, we had the EK, WK, Peace and Okanagan and LM as potential areas to hunt elk.

But when you mess up a historically great area for elk hunting opportunity in the EK, that screw up is going to show up elsewhere, like the WK.
And from the sounds of it, sounds like the ministry is all good with screwing up the Peace region if
they aren't careful.

The WK sounds like they had some nice sized bulls in there, but I don't think many were that interested
to hunt the WK due to the harsher terrain to find elk in.
I think many went to the WK because the EK was getting bad.

[338win mag]

I believe it will be very similar in the peace region in no time.
I spoke with a local wildlife bio recently about elk leh numbers. They said in 2008 they did a survey and there were around 10,000 elk in the region. The plan was to reduce the population by 50% with leh, so around 5,000 elk. Leh began.
10 years later they did another study in 2018 and determined there were 4,700 elk, so about 50% of what they had. Objective accomplished?
Apparently not as this years elk leh actually has increased from a total of 1,000 last year to 1,250 this year.
It's frustrating as this is a late season hunt when they are most vulnerable also. Personally we have watched a steady and rather rapid decline in elk numbers in the peace.
How can they try to reduce by 50% when they have no idea what FN hunters have shot? or....how can they forecast a future estimate for the same reason?
I suspect if they wanted to know how many Elk there are today and how many there are going to be tomorrow then the answer may truly lie with the private land owners who let hunters on their property to shoot those pesky Elk, cows, calves, and Bulls that are not recorded in any inventory.

[#49]

I was in Castlegar the weekend the first GOS opened there were plenty of people interested .I agree many were probably disgruntled EK hunters.Image this province if it was managed right healthy populations in the Peace,and the Kootenays this province would be world class but instead

[HighCountryBC]

The WK sounds like they had some nice sized bulls in there, but I don't think many were that interested
to hunt the WK due to the harsher terrain to find elk in.
I think many went to the WK because the EK was getting bad.

You don't think many were interested in hunting the WK? Most of the LEH hunts prior to the GOS opening were once in a lifetime draws.
People hunting the WK had nothing to do with the status of the EK and everything to do with the new opportunity. It's a heck of a lot closer for folks from the LM and Okanagan.

[canucks6]

It's all a joke. Ungulate numbers in the toilet, fish numbers in the toilet, the green movement is upon us. The days of real men controlling the area and animal numbers through hunting and trapping is over. It's about making money, getting votes and sucking the corporate c*ck. Get used to it. When u have people wearing lululemon making decisions what do we expect. Get someone with some fleece making calls.
The revolution is well on its way.

[rageous]

^^^this.....

[Bugle M In]

You don't think many were interested in hunting the WK? Most of the LEH hunts prior to the GOS opening were once in a lifetime draws.
People hunting the WK had nothing to do with the status of the EK and everything to do with the new opportunity. It's a heck of a lot closer for folks from the LM and Okanagan.

I know the WK hunts were on some folks radar "always".

What I meant (didn't explain it well), is that there was a time when I would be up hunting elk in the EK, where the majority of hunters (atleast half) were from "outside the EK" (from LM to Vernon).
But now, I rarely run into anybody up there that is not a local EK Resident.

Because it is so bad, many of the longtime EK elk hunters who aren't local have either headed up to the Peace, or, "did take a poke at the WK" hunts once GOS opened.

Of course any LEH is going to provide game that may grow to a fuller maturity, thus a chance to take a large antlered bull.
BUT, are we hunting for trophy in this province? or for a successful hunt with meat?
(Right now we are not doing either!!??)

What good is it, if the province becomes LEH, and 90% of us get to sit home?
I much rather harvest a smaller bull (antler wise) than wait til I get drawn for a once in a lifetime.
(Sure, we could have the odd MU on an LEH, but not the entire Region, imo)

But first, we need to push the ministry that 12,000 head in the EK is BS!
If that is the case, the Peace and WK will get hit harder than even in the past.
People want to hunt, and want a chance of success.
The EK is no longer offering that.
And we have the Ministry and Private Sectors to blame for it this time around.
Not hunters.

[Bugle M In]

It's all a joke. Ungulate numbers in the toilet, fish numbers in the toilet, the green movement is upon us. The days of real men controlling the area and animal numbers through hunting and trapping is over. It's about making money, getting votes and sucking the corporate c*ck. Get used to it. When u have people wearing lululemon making decisions what do we expect. Get someone with some fleece making calls.
The revolution is well on its way.

Yup^^^^
In a nutshell, that is whats happened.
Government is not working for and with hunters.
They are working for everyone else, and that's why they only want a low head count of elk in the future
compared to the past.
So yes, you are bang on

[Wild one]

Don’t forget it was not too long ago hunters were pushing for max opportunity preaching they have no impact. Look at the backlash from hunters when opportunity is taken away.

Hunters were getting the opportunity they were asking for

[#49]

No hunters were asking for the ministry to manage a resource responsibly

[Husky7mm]

Hunter opportunity cost hunters there opportunities...... what we see here today is a direct result from liberal seasons. The changes in populations lines up perfectly.

[jtred]

Hunter opportunity cost hunters there opportunities...... what we see here today is a direct result from liberal seasons. The changes in populations lines up perfectly.
How exactly do you drop a population from what one post stated was once 30,000 to 3,000 with a 6 point only season. Are you saying hunting caused this drop all by itself? A 90% drop with the east Kootenays having been a six point bull elk season for decades now? The GOS on cows was a very specific area and time frame targeting agricultural losses and damage. The LEH in 4-06 for example was a minute fragment of the whole region, once again targeting agricultural losses due to resident/nonmigratory herds.

[HarryToolips]

^^^^so Jared, I'm asking seriously not with any spiteful intentions, what do you think caused the decline then?? Because what I'm told is the GOS/LEH authorizations in the trench etc is what led to the rapid declines...what do you think cause the large scale declines then??

[Husky7mm]

How exactly do you drop a population from what one post stated was once 30,000 to 3,000 with a 6 point only season. Are you saying hunting caused this drop all by itself? A 90% drop with the east Kootenays having been a six point bull elk season for decades now? The GOS on cows was a very specific area and time frame targeting agricultural losses and damage. The LEH in 4-06 for example was a minute fragment of the whole region, once again targeting agricultural losses due to resident/nonmigratory herds.

Nothing to do with the 6 point season, but I will put it in very basic terms. Before massive amounts of leh cow permits, and gos cow permits, youth and senior spike and cow permits there was a ton of elk in the EK, now not so much.

[Weatherby Fan]

I think a combination of some really bad winters, Predator explosion of Grizzly Bears and wolves where we’ve hunted for 25 years, lack of habitat enhancement and the liberal hunting for a few years with lots of LEH and youth and senior seasons made for a perfect storm, hard to put the blame on any one thing imho

[338win mag]

^^^^so Jared, I'm asking seriously not with any spiteful intentions, what do you think caused the decline then?? Because what I'm told is the GOS/LEH authorizations in the trench etc is what led to the rapid declines...what do you think cause the large scale declines then??
Second time I have said this......The private land owners have been allowing people on to their land and shooting the Cows, all people not just FN.

I dont understand why guys are so confused, shoot the females and you destroy any population I am aware of, this is exactly what happened to the Buffalo.
There should be so many Elk in the East/West Kootenay and in the peace that we all have ample opportunity to hunt Elk.

I just dont understand how anyone can even guess how many Elk are being shot when some guys are heading home from some big ranches with 10-15 Elk at a time, then they probably go back for another truckload.
They do the same thing in Saskatchewan and Manitoba.

The only solution to the unwanted Elk on private land is to fence it off at a ridiculously high price, and who pays for that?
Elk and ranching dont go together very well, just ask any rancher.

[Wild one]

I think a combination of some really bad winters, Predator explosion of Grizzly Bears and wolves where we’ve hunted for 25 years, lack of habitat enhancement and the liberal hunting for a few years with lots of LEH and youth and senior seasons made for a perfect storm, hard to put the blame on any one thing imho

I would say you are right on point

[micus]

I know the WK hunts were on some folks radar "always".

What I meant (didn't explain it well), is that there was a time when I would be up hunting elk in the EK, where the majority of hunters (atleast half) were from "outside the EK" (from LM to Vernon).
But now, I rarely run into anybody up there that is not a local EK Resident.

Because it is so bad, many of the longtime EK elk hunters who aren't local have either headed up to the Peace, or, "did take a poke at the WK" hunts once GOS opened.

Of course any LEH is going to provide game that may grow to a fuller maturity, thus a chance to take a large antlered bull.
BUT, are we hunting for trophy in this province? or for a successful hunt with meat?
(Right now we are not doing either!!??)

What good is it, if the province becomes LEH, and 90% of us get to sit home?
I much rather harvest a smaller bull (antler wise) than wait til I get drawn for a once in a lifetime.
(Sure, we could have the odd MU on an LEH, but not the entire Region, imo)

But first, we need to push the ministry that 12,000 head in the EK is BS!
If that is the case, the Peace and WK will get hit harder than even in the past.
People want to hunt, and want a chance of success.
The EK is no longer offering that.
And we have the Ministry and Private Sectors to blame for it this time around.
Not hunters.


mmmmmmmm..... Pull up any FSR from West Creston to just north of Cranbrook come Sept 11th and all you see if 5th wheels and trucks with quad decks/trailers. Yahk main, kidd, plumbob, don't even get me started on the bull ( you could put in a set of Traffic lights and a tim hortons at the entrance in sept).

I support people traveling to hunt and us all taking advantage of hunting opportunities as BC residents. BUT, as an EK resident, I can tell you this place fills up with the mass migration from LM / Vancouver/ surrey, van isl, etc etc in Sept.

[RobU]

I understand there are pockets of excellent elk populations in the Kootneys ,but not sure of hunting access.Any local information would be appreciated...

Im a long time Kootenay hunter. Very passionate about the koots.
Region 4 ungulates in big trouble. Wolves, cats, bears, coyotes, resident hunting and our favourite elephant in the room... unregulated hunting are huge pressures being placed on our elk , deer, sheep, moose and goats.
You will find good information hard to find these days and my recent trip to the symposium in Cranbrook can verify there are very few pockets of good elk hunting left in the once magnificent region 4. Just pick a few likely areas and put in some effort... you may find one or more of these spots. Keep in mind many others will be searching too. Just enjoy the outing and you will find great wild places to hunt now and hopefully in a brighter future when region 4 rings with bugling bulls again.
My 2018 elk hunt in koots revealed mountains and valleys once thriving with elk now reduced to mere ghost towns. But a great time hiking and glassing had by all.

[HarryToolips]

Second time I have said this......The private land owners have been allowing people on to their land and shooting the Cows, all people not just FN.

I dont understand why guys are so confused, shoot the females and you destroy any population I am aware of, this is exactly what happened to the Buffalo.
There should be so many Elk in the East/West Kootenay and in the peace that we all have ample opportunity to hunt Elk.

I just dont understand how anyone can even guess how many Elk are being shot when some guys are heading home from some big ranches with 10-15 Elk at a time, then they probably go back for another truckload.
They do the same thing in Saskatchewan and Manitoba.

The only solution to the unwanted Elk on private land is to fence it off at a ridiculously high price, and who pays for that?
Elk and ranching dont go together very well, just ask any rancher.
That's really sad, so you're saying there's a lot of poaching happening as well and not just by FN?

Didn't we have a petition going around not long ago asking our prov. govt to put all of our hunting and hunting tag revenue back into wildlife? Because we need it bad, when we finally get it one day, aside from pred management maybe one of the first issues they should address with the $$ is putting up fencing around ranches in in parts of reg 4 like you mentioned...

[HighCountryBC]

mmmmmmmm..... Pull up any FSR from West Creston to just north of Cranbrook come Sept 11th and all you see if 5th wheels and trucks with quad decks/trailers. Yahk main, kidd, plumbob, don't even get me started on the bull ( you could put in a set of Traffic lights and a tim hortons at the entrance in sept).

I support people traveling to hunt and us all taking advantage of hunting opportunities as BC residents. BUT, as an EK resident, I can tell you this place fills up with the mass migration from LM / Vancouver/ surrey, van isl, etc etc in Sept.

Who cares where people come from to hunt? No different than everyone heading to the coast to fish. That’s just a NIMBY attitude and has nothing to do with the population challenges.

[micus]

Who cares where people come from to hunt? No different than everyone heading to the coast to fish. That’s just a NIMBY attitude and has nothing to do with the population challenges.

Not sure what NIMBY means.. but as I stated. I have no problem with people traveling to hunt. Which is why I stated "I support people traveling to hunt"

But to answer your question of "who cares where people come from the hunt"?

LOTS of people around here do.

[Kootenaykid85]

98% Of people posting on here or that come over to the kootenays from the coast/interior are lazy incompetent hunters. You come over here towing your trailers and quads, drive around shooting anything that is legal. Go home log on here rub your hands together and then start complaining about population numbers and predators..... asking for new areas to hunt. Its hilarious.
I am honestly glad the ungulate poplation is at a low makes it a tad harder for me, makes me go a little deeper. See some new country some new animals, the best part will be not having to see the crowds anymore!!. If your literally just coming over here to animals for "meat" when you know there is a problem in our wildlife managemt, then you are no worse then the people trying to stop hunting. If you have the money to buy the stuff for "fancy hunting" then you have the money to support the cattle industry.
You shouldnt be asking "hey where are the rest of the animals that havent been shot or eaten or hit by cars and trains living so i can finish them off"?? you should be starting threads like... " What can we do to help the situation over there".

[j270wsm]

I call bullsh*t on the theory that hunters are the primary reason that ungulate numbers are down. Between Fernie and km128 north of Elkford( almost 100km ) there was 300 cow elk tags given out per yr for 10yrs. I’m going to guess that there was 2500 cows taken during that time. Are people that blind that they think a heard of 8000 elk will be reduced to their current numbers( maybe 1500-2000 ) by hunters alone in 10yrs?????

In a herd of 8000 elk, 5000 are probably cows. If 3500 have calves( pretty sure this number would be higher ) of those calves 2275 are cows( basing this off a guess that 35% of calves are bulls ) let’s say 35% of the calves survive to breed. That gives us around 800 cows.....that’s a lot more than my guess of 250 cows per yr being killed by hunters.

I guarantee my math isn’t perfect and my percentages are off but it paints a good picture that in my part of the east kootenays it’s not just the hunters. Trains, vehicles, poaching, and predators take just as many or more elk than hunters alone.

Maybe someone with better computer skills could find and post numbers from a government source that shows survival numbers and cow/bull ratios for calves.

[Kootenaykid85]

I call bullsh*t on the theory that hunters are the primary reason that ungulate numbers are down. Between Fernie and km128 north of Elkford( almost 100km ) there was 300 cow elk tags given out per yr for 10yrs. I’m going to guess that there was 2500 cows taken during that time. Are people that blind that they think a heard of 8000 elk will be reduced to their current numbers( maybe 1500-2000 ) by hunters alone in 10yrs?????

In a herd of 8000 elk, 5000 are probably cows. If 3500 have calves( pretty sure this number would be higher ) of those calves 2275 are cows( basing this off a guess that 35% of calves are bulls ) let’s say 35% of the calves survive to breed. That gives us around 800 cows.....that’s a lot more than my guess of 250 cows per yr being killed by hunters.

I guarantee my math isn’t perfect and my percentages are off but it paints a good picture that in my part of the east kootenays it’s not just the hunters. Trains, vehicles, poaching, and predators take just as many or more elk than hunters alone.

Maybe someone with better computer skills could find and post numbers from a government source that shows survival numbers and cow/bull ratios for calves.


You do realize that killing one cow isnt just killing one elk right?? killing one cow is reducing the elk population by around 45 in the next 5 years. now do some math.

[Dannybuoy]

You do realize that killing one cow isnt just killing one elk right?? killing one cow is reducing the elk population by around 45 in the next 5 years. now do some math.
Absolutely correct ... and this goes for the mule deer does , cow moose and even the once plentiful whitetail ....

[HighCountryBC]

You do realize that killing one cow isnt just killing one elk right?? killing one cow is reducing the elk population by around 45 in the next 5 years. now do some math.

Fortunately that’s not the way it works. A good percentage of those cow harvests are compensatory, meaning they would have died anyways through predation/collision/disease etc. and aren’t added to total mortality.

[Wild one]

Fortunately that’s not the way it works. A good percentage of those cow harvests are compensatory, meaning they would have died anyways through predation/collision/disease etc. and aren’t added to total mortality.

Yes these are a factor calculating allowable harvest but clearly with the present state of the elk populations things did not turn out as intended

Not exactly as simple as your stating though

Clearly with the way elk numbers have declined there was a miss calculation on what was surplus after the other factors that impacted the elk population

[Bugle M In]

mmmmmmmm..... Pull up any FSR from West Creston to just north of Cranbrook come Sept 11th and all you see if 5th wheels and trucks with quad decks/trailers. Yahk main, kidd, plumbob, don't even get me started on the bull ( you could put in a set of Traffic lights and a tim hortons at the entrance in sept).

I support people traveling to hunt and us all taking advantage of hunting opportunities as BC residents. BUT, as an EK resident, I can tell you this place fills up with the mass migration from LM / Vancouver/ surrey, van isl, etc etc in Sept.

That's because the areas you just stated "still have some elk".
In the areas like where I go, the #'s dropped so badly, people have gone elsewhere.

Yes, some areas of the EK see pressure, because there are some elk.
And yes, us non EK guys find that info out too, not just locals.

[Bugle M In]

Look folks,

Take the Peace Region (and I haven't been there yet to hunt elk).
But the LEH is showing an MU with a ton of permits for cows.
This should tell you that the Ministry is working with private landowners and some others to have elk #'s
reduced in the area.
(In other words, giving hunters some short term benefit, but the end game is to reduce elk).

Same went for the EK.
In the 90's they saw a problem and thus pulled back on LEH Cow permits.
I think they realized (as well as pressure from GO's) that elk were down, so they also put in the 6pt
restriction.

THIS WORKED!!, elk came back, and maybe to the point where the 6pt could have been lifted AND a
few Cow LEH handed back out.

BUT, for whatever reason (potentially preds chasing elk down to the valleys?) the elk stayed lowed.
They weren't repopulating the high country ion the Spring like normal!?

AND, during that time, the Ministry again listened to private landowners and others etc, and put in
ZONE X.
(Yes, hunters benefitted, but was again a short term benefit with long term consequences).
The whole intent was to drop elk #'s to around 8000 by implementing zone x hunts.


SO, WHY did we even bother getting the 90's cow leh permits withdrawn and why did we even institute a 6pt restriction!????????

The Ministry dropped the ball.
They weren't listening to many hunters that the elk were leaving the high country and not coming back.
All the ministry did was try to address all the elk (the majority of the populations) in the lowlands and
have the majority to shot off.

Cant really blame hunters for this type of direction.
IF the tags are there, hunters go and hunt.

BUT, the ministry should have been paying attention the to Preds issue, the forestry issue (beetle).
They didn't, and this is what we have now.
Kiss the early bow season good buy and any cow leh.
BUT, what is the Ministry going to do different now???? (nothing, accept put in restrictions!!)

FOLKS IN THE PEACE,
Sounds to me like a lot of what the Ministry did in the EK, they are now going to do with you folks and your elk.
Are they addressing Preds?
Are they trying to remove elk from private property?

You can always tell their intent by the amount of "Cow leh allocations".
(yes, you have to have x amount of cows only so some bulls can make it thru the winter, fyi)
But when you see this type of "liberal" allocation, there is more to the story.

AND, to me, the Ministry has shown me they are "INCAPABLE" of actually managing wildlife.
AND, they are no longer managing wildlife "FOR HUNTERS".
The Ministries interest are for "OTHERS".

SO, STOP blaming each other or putting other hunters down folks.
It's crappy "wildlife management" at it's best!!

[Bugle M In]

Yes these are a factor calculating allowable harvest but clearly with the present state of the elk populations things did not turn out as intended

Not exactly as simple as your stating though

Clearly with the way elk numbers have declined there was a miss calculation on what was surplus after the other factors that impacted the elk population

Wildone,

When it comes to the EK, the ministry wanted elk down to around 8,000 head.
There was no mistake by them.
They may not have considered how much preds might harvest.
And yes, hunters are "efficient" at hunting elk.
(collaring info shows how many elk have met their end by hunters)

The Minsitry knew.

J-T has stated it the best.
The ministry is not "trying to grow game" to a level we hunters think they should.
(Like the EK elk population, they only want to have about half the historical levels)
They want 12,000 head in the EK.
When hunters had the most fun, (and what made the EK "legendary") there were at least 20,000 elk.
(some might say 30,000!?)

People need to "wake up".
This was "not a mistake"
Just "over efficiency"!
They wanted the elk "Culled" for Private Sectors.
They made it happen.
And now us hunters will pay the price again"

Guess with what????

Yup, more Restrictions (and necessary because the ministry did what they did)

(I just hope hunters in the Peace see what could happen to them)
And hunters from all over will still search for "other areas" to try and find elk.
So, the WK can be "warned" right now.
You ain't seen nothing yet!

[Weatherby Fan]

98% Of people posting on here or that come over to the kootenays from the coast/interior are lazy incompetent hunters. You come over here towing your trailers and quads, drive around shooting anything that is legal. Go home log on here rub your hands together and then start complaining about population numbers and predators..... asking for new areas to hunt. Its hilarious.

I am honestly glad the ungulate poplation is at a low makes it a tad harder for me, makes me go a little deeper. See some new country some new animals, the best part will be not having to see the crowds anymore!!. If your literally just coming over here to animals for "meat" when you know there is a problem in our wildlife managemt, then you are no worse then the people trying to stop hunting. If you have the money to buy the stuff for "fancy hunting" then you have the money to support the cattle industry.
You shouldnt be asking "hey where are the rest of the animals that havent been shot or eaten or hit by cars and trains living so i can finish them off"?? you should be starting threads like... " What can we do to help the situation over there".

And you know 98% of the people posting here and where and how they hunt ? Im going to say your being very presumptuous and even insulting in your post,

especially the lazy incompetent hunter part that's a classic, as long as those folks don't do anything illegal what business is it of yours how or what they hunt or the extent of their knowledge to hunting ?

And generally shooting anything that is legal is just that....LEGAL obviously you have an issue with a legal hunt, if a fellow wants to shoot a WT doe for MEAT is he lazy incompetent hunter to you ? a bad hunter because it doesn't conform to your narrow minded ideology ? I thought the whole purpose to go hunting is to get some wild organic meat to eat......???

[Wild one]

Wildone,

When it comes to the EK, the ministry wanted elk down to around 8,000 head.
There was no mistake by them.
They may not have considered how much preds might harvest.
And yes, hunters are "efficient" at hunting elk.
(collaring info shows how many elk have met their end by hunters)

The Minsitry knew.

J-T has stated it the best.
The ministry is not "trying to grow game" to a level we hunters think they should.
(Like the EK elk population, they only want to have about half the historical levels)
They want 12,000 head in the EK.
When hunters had the most fun, (and what made the EK "legendary") there were at least 20,000 elk.
(some might say 30,000!?)

People need to "wake up".
This was "not a mistake"
Just "over efficiency"!
They wanted the elk "Culled" for Private Sectors.
They made it happen.
And now us hunters will pay the price again"

Guess with what????

Yup, more Restrictions (and necessary because the ministry did what they did)

(I just hope hunters in the Peace see what could happen to them)
And hunters from all over will still search for "other areas" to try and find elk.
So, the WK can be "warned" right now.
You ain't seen nothing yet!

Intentonally lowering numbers is no doubt a possibility and would make sense

[Kootenaykid85]

little long winded there bugle m in .. sure the goverment puts the regulations and tags in place but they have tooooooo... smoking ciggerettes is legal but should you personally smoke every single one you can?? you cant sit here type away and blame them. you come over here and kill the elk.. do you come over here and kill the predators to compensate? people are easy to blame the powers at hand but they are to dumb to realize its there own common sense thats will catch up to them in the end.

[Bugle M In]

KootenayKid,

Your comments are "extremely disrespectful", imo.
There are many hunters, local EK and elsewhere, who know how to hunt elk.

Yes, you seem like an avid elk hunter.
You are a local, have the time to go out and hunt in a matter of minutes from your own (if you want).
And you have taken advantage of that (good on you) and use your time wisely.

I know what you mean about some hunters and their hunting tactics.
The 1st to leave the are I hunt were those in trucks and quads (although much of my area is closed to vehicles anyways for 40 plus years.)
The next groups to leave were those on horses, AND, they had experience and the ability to hit areas
no one else really could.
(they did have lots of success).
Next were GO's selling out several times (the goat hunt is all that keeps the current GO in business).
So, that left my group and another that hunt on foot or mtn bike.
They left, in part because they "packed in" and camped in a particular area that held elk daily.
I didn't take that approach, but rather cycle in for several hours (in the dark) in a multitude of different
directions, to hit different areas.

The "TRUTH" is, and the aerial survey "confirms it", that the population is "way down".
I used to think it was down by 1/2 since 2005.
But I was worried it was only 1/4 of the 2005 levels.
IT is probably worse than that!!

There are many "qualified" elk hunters on this site.
We may not be as young as we once were, but I will take my "knowledge" of the areas over all the hard walking I used to do when I was young.
Either way, LUCK is always a part of hunting.
But, elk #'s are down, big time.
And many with good elk hunting ability are seeing that as well.

Hopefully your area doesn't get "kicked" like many others.
But, I give the locals credit.
The other locals may figure out where your "honey hole" is.
And when they do, just wait and see how bad it can get.

The best thing:
Hope that the Ministry gets their act together, and works with hunters to have a "huntable population"
in the EK.
(Not just the "minimal" that they are wanting to only achieve).

I can promise you one thing, time will catch up to you as well.
It always does!

[Wild one]

little long winded there bugle m in .. sure the goverment puts the regulations and tags in place but they have tooooooo... smoking ciggerettes is legal but should you personally smoke every single one you can?? you cant sit here type away and blame them. you come over here and kill the elk.. do you come over here and kill the predators to compensate? people are easy to blame the powers at hand but they are to dumb to realize its there own common sense thats will catch up to them in the end.

Hate to tell you kid it’s not that simple if it was we would not need hunting regs at all. Another big issue is in BC a large portion of hunters are like gypsy’s moving around the prov so they are not in touch with the true state of populations

Add in how much it’s been preached trust our management, hunters have no impact ( read highcountry BCs post), and the large portion of hunters that just make sure they are legal.

You do make some valid points that would be great in a perfect world but you need to look at the reality of the big picture that there needs to be hunter management as well because most don’t have in depth knowledge of the populations they hunt

[Bubbacanuck]

98% Of people posting on here or that come over to the kootenays from the coast/interior are lazy incompetent hunters. You come over here towing your trailers and quads, drive around shooting anything that is legal. Go home log on here rub your hands together and then start complaining about population numbers and predators..... asking for new areas to hunt. Its hilarious.
I am honestly glad the ungulate poplation is at a low makes it a tad harder for me, makes me go a little deeper. See some new country some new animals, the best part will be not having to see the crowds anymore!!. If your literally just coming over here to animals for "meat" when you know there is a problem in our wildlife managemt, then you are no worse then the people trying to stop hunting. If you have the money to buy the stuff for "fancy hunting" then you have the money to support the cattle industry.
You shouldnt be asking "hey where are the rest of the animals that havent been shot or eaten or hit by cars and trains living so i can finish them off"?? you should be starting threads like... " What can we do to help the situation over there".

Ignorant post. BC residents can hunt anywhere they want within the rules of the regs. As long as its legal, who are you to presume lazy & incompetent? Its like saying you are inbred since your from an area outside the LM. You have valid points but make it so no one hears them through the stupidity.

[backcountry99]

This elk problem is not just the EK it is just as bad in WK and is a whole region 4 issue, I hunt both sides of region 4 and to be honest the EK is in better shape then the WK right now in my opinion. I blame it on wolves. Every where we hunted in the past 3 seasons we are running into dead elk and howling wolves. We may have liberal elk season's now but wolves hunt for 365 days a year and dont follow point restrictions and dont tag out either. If we don't get the wolves under control this conversation will be mute because there won't be any elk left to hunt in region 4. How we deal with the wolves opens up a whole can of worms but we need to toughen up and make it happen before its to late.

These same elk number declines are happening in national parks were there are not FN's hunting, not land owner tags, not cow seasons etc etc etc. The problem is wolves!

[Salty]

98% Of people posting on here or that come over to the kootenays from the coast/interior are lazy incompetent hunters. You come over here towing your trailers and quads, drive around shooting anything that is legal. Go home log on here rub your hands together and then start complaining about population numbers and predators..... asking for new areas to hunt. Its hilarious.
I am honestly glad the ungulate poplation is at a low makes it a tad harder for me, makes me go a little deeper. See some new country some new animals, the best part will be not having to see the crowds anymore!!. If your literally just coming over here to animals for "meat" when you know there is a problem in our wildlife managemt, then you are no worse then the people trying to stop hunting. If you have the money to buy the stuff for "fancy hunting" then you have the money to support the cattle industry.
You shouldnt be asking "hey where are the rest of the animals that havent been shot or eaten or hit by cars and trains living so i can finish them off"?? you should be starting threads like... " What can we do to help the situation over there".

:lol::lol::lol:















:lol:

[Bugle M In]

This elk problem is not just the EK it is just as bad in WK and is a whole region 4 issue, I hunt both sides of region 4 and to be honest the EK is in better shape then the WK right now in my opinion. I blame it on wolves. Every where we hunted in the past 3 seasons we are running into dead elk and howling wolves. We may have liberal elk season's now but wolves hunt for 365 days a year and dont follow point restrictions and dont tag out either. If we don't get the wolves under control this conversation will be mute because there won't be any elk left to hunt in region 4. How we deal with the wolves opens up a whole can of worms but we need to toughen up and make it happen before its to late.

These same elk number declines are happening in national parks were there are not FN's hunting, not land owner tags, not cow seasons etc etc etc. The problem is wolves!

^^^^Yup. KNP was one of the worst parks to see declines.
So much so, that for the first time ever, they had a Fire in the Park to help bring back wildlife.
Sadly, they still haven't returned.
Need them to have them migrate back in.
And yes, no hunting
Prime example of crappy habitat and Preds.

[Bugle M In]

Imagine if we had a province where the:
EK had 25,000
The WK 10,000- 15,000
The Peace 35,000
R8 with 8,000
AND R2 with 15,000.

That sure would spread out hunters and over activity in areas....wouldn't it???
(never happen though)

[Bubbacanuck]

Imagine if we had a province where the:
EK had 25,000
The WK 10,000- 15,000
The Peace 35,000
R8 with 8,000
AND R2 with 15,000.

That sure would spread out hunters and over activity in areas....wouldn't it???p
(never happen though)


Dont forget 10,000 in region 1 and get a GOS rather than all LEH.

I just don’t understand why as hunters we don’t all work together rather than against each other, no matter where we live. We are our own worst enemies... (never happen though either it seems)

[happyhunter]

Imagine if we had a province where the:
EK had 25,000
The WK 10,000- 15,000
The Peace 35,000
R8 with 8,000
AND R2 with 15,000.

That sure would spread out hunters and over activity in areas....wouldn't it???
(never happen though)

This should be a real target and we hunters need to pressure gov to make this happen. Right now Gov is making decisions and doesn’t even treat us as stakeholders in wildlife management

[jac]

I’m not a scientist but I personally dislike all the cow and doe seasons within the province. Why take away the future of the population and some people will say that they are old does or cows that don’t breed anymore but it still a animal that a predator might eat and if they ate a old girl that might save a young breeding female. Again not a scientist and not looking to ruffle feathers just my opinion.

[HarryToolips]

Imagine if we had a province where the:
EK had 25,000
The WK 10,000- 15,000
The Peace 35,000
R8 with 8,000
AND R2 with 15,000.

That sure would spread out hunters and over activity in areas....wouldn't it???
(never happen though)
Wouldn't that be awesome...we need the funding, we need to set goals like that for wildlife, and we need pred management to make it happen...we need to get the prov. govt on board...and as you previously stated, maybe we should call the govt out on their decision to hold the elk populations lower through LEH authorizations - and maybe we should publicly call them out on this...by what I'm hearing, this is a now a conservation concern, maybe we should be talking to the BCWF and getting them on board to stop this from happening - make all the cow elk Leh's for 1 to only a few tags per zone only (like they are for reg 4 this year), including for the Peace region - we shouldn't let this happen to the Peace the way the EK is now by the sounds of it..

[Bugle M In]

Apologize for my long winded rants on this thread, but elk hunting in the EK "was" my biggest passion.
I thought we, as hunters and EK Elk hunting had hit are "low point" in the late 90's!
I thought by now, we might of had the 6pt restriction back to 3pt or better.
Boy!, was I wrong, and am really pissed off and ashamed at how poorly we are managing wildlife.

(Just watched sharkwater : extinction, and there was one line that I really liked)

"Ensuring Conservation on our planet Guarantees OUR Existence on the Planet."

How are we doing so far?
In a province/country where we should be leading this issue.
We cant even hold on to elk in the EK.

[338win mag]

Imagine if we had a province where the:
EK had 25,000
The WK 10,000- 15,000
The Peace 35,000
R8 with 8,000
AND R2 with 15,000.

That sure would spread out hunters and over activity in areas....wouldn't it???
(never happen though)
This is what we could/should have, I doubt whether we will ever see it as it looks like we are going down another road.
There only needs to be enough Elk for FN to hunt, and the way that is going there wont be enough for them either.
You cant shoot the entire herd and expect good times in the future.

To those who think its Wolves/Trains/Bears etc, I'm pretty sure you are correct, but the fact that guys are leaving the hunting grounds with truckloads of Elk cant be ignored.

[boxhitch]

It sure would be nice to roll back the date and have the elk pop we used to have
But along with that would have to be a return to the same land use we used to have
Pop numbers have been dropped in areas due to the impacts and complaints from landowners and farmers

What used to be good wintering grounds is now someones property being damaged.
For every 10 complaints from hunters the Gov probaly has to deal with a dozen complaints about property comcerns

A good project would be to map out the suitable, safe, non-invasive, winter habitat that is available to elk and make a judgment on holding capacity.
I bet we are there.

[Kootenaykid85]

Bingo boxhitch. Elk dont live in clear cuts. elk cant live in towns and on private fenced land. they dont like to hang out all day in big giant wild fire burns. we cant have the population we once did. its the facts, get off your quad go hike around enjoy the little things and give your fingers a break.

[Husky7mm]

Dam near every elk I killed or helped kill was in or near some type of clear cut.

[Husky7mm]

Did not see a problem with elk and unregulated hunting in the EK, before the big drop I have seen herds of hundreds of elk right on the reservations all winter long. Nice bulls too, right by the roads too.

[Kootenaykid85]

Well obviously they have to pass threw to get to their bedding grounds or to water !!and thats when whaaaaaamooooo they get shot off the handlebars of a polaris sportsman 800! congrats it must feel riveting..... all jokes aside its not going to get any better. those big herds of elk that used to live in the back country need area to winter, and when the dwindling winter grounds are allready full of resident elk it becomes a problem

[Husky7mm]

This elk problem is not just the EK it is just as bad in WK and is a whole region 4 issue, I hunt both sides of region 4 and to be honest the EK is in better shape then the WK right now in my opinion. I blame it on wolves. Every where we hunted in the past 3 seasons we are running into dead elk and howling wolves. We may have liberal elk season's now but wolves hunt for 365 days a year and dont follow point restrictions and dont tag out either. If we don't get the wolves under control this conversation will be mute because there won't be any elk left to hunt in region 4. How we deal with the wolves opens up a whole can of worms but we need to toughen up and make it happen before its to late.

These same elk number declines are happening in national parks were there are not FN's hunting, not land owner tags, not cow seasons etc etc etc. The problem is wolves!


I would agree that predators have played a big role in this and I do believe a good wolf is a dead one. That said where are all the dead wolves? If the whole country is polluted with wolves, the kill rates and harvest must be up, sightings should be way up too??

[Husky7mm]

Up here in the peace the elk winter in the bush, clear cuts and along the river breaks. They browse just like moose or whitetail off young alder, willow and aspen shoots. The snow has to get pretty deep for them to totally leave. They are not always pawing down to graze, they do not need to migrate into lowland , ranches, farmland necessarily. If they do they get shot cause late season cow tags have been going on for decades iirc.

[HighCountryBC]

they dont like to hang out all day in big giant wild fire burns.

What? That’s exactly what they like to do.

[Husky7mm]

What? That’s exactly what they like to do.

Shhhh, don’t tell the elite hunters where the elk are or they will get them all!

[Bugle M In]

Boxhitch,

Good points and yes, I think it is a big reason why elk are in such poor #'s.
I do think Zone X was a result of all the "complaints" because of what you say.
Throw in the wolves, and they weren't going back up in the Spring, further compounding the issues.

What they didn't pay attention, or weren't listening too, were the hunters on horseback who were saying there were no elk in the backcountry (not like it used to be).

That should have been the "alarm bell" that maybe the zone X was targeting "all the elk, not just some".
(Don't read everything as fact, there were elk in the back 9, just not anywhere like before).

So, it is a combination of no wintering grounds (nobody wants them there and no room).
Its the fact that if they were down there, they were on the "hit" list.
And if they are no longer down there in the winter, there isn't any to go back in the Spring and populate
the back country.
And the few that are, are being hunted hard, or falling prey to preds.

The area I hunt, only had elk counts in the couple hundreds this past survey.
IT should have been in the thousands!
And this is a large MU.

[Bugle M In]

Kootenay Kid,

There are lots of ways to hunt elk and where to.
Many on horses took advantage of elk still in the subalpine from all summer.
(the food is 4X's more nutritious for them than if they stay on a ranchers field.)
But as soon as snow fell, the elk moved out.

Than there are the transition zones and pinch points as these elk start to move out of the sub alpine,
down some of the smaller rivers into the intermediate river valleys.
Generally close to the rut period and generally where most hunters concentrated in.
There will be areas inside this zone that the elk just hang in for breeding.

The last area was the big river valley bottoms.
Which, tends to be where most of the elk are these days and why many say knowing friends with private
property is a big advantage.
(A CO friend confirmed that many of the folks hanging elk got them this way)
This is just a general overview.
I could give you ton of info, how bulls will not only move down river, but will go up river, ad how they pattern their searches for cows when the rut is on, blah blah bla.

I used to be you (except for 1 difference).
Sorry for the chest beating coming next.
From 1990 til 2000, we took 14 bulls (all but 2 were decent 6pts).
I had 9 of them and was present for another 2 (calling/scouting etc)
There were some double headers and a triple in the week.
(YES, back than I was lucky to get 6 full days to hunt, as I am a stupid LM'er!, so that tells you I hiked and scouted my ass off to find elk that quickly!, and "experience" helps over the years)
So, this is at a time where many were saying "the elk are missing"!!?? (the high country elk)
ME, LIKE U, thought "they were nuts and didn't know how to hunt"!
(The BIG DIFFERENCE between you and me was, I was polite/respectful to not just say it out loud!, but I thought it!....but maybe it is a generation difference as I didn't have the I-net at the time, so when I talked my point of view, it was "face to face"!, not just a faceless post on the net...maybe I might have if
it was like it is today???...but I was brought different, so I doubt it)

Back to some facts so "we can all move forward" (as that is all I care about, but we need to know where we have been!!, so we don't go there again....but, somehow we did!!???????)

The one thing in the 90's, while many were saying thing were getting bad (they hadn't seen nothing yet!!)
is that I did agree, we were rarely seeing any COW ELK.
So that part I was seeing and it did scare me and all those cow leh permits year after year were going to be a big issue.
I complained about it, all the time. (I didn't want them gone, just reduced to something normal)
My father before me and my x father in law describe the valley as full of elk in the scree slopes.
Seeing 25 to 50 cow elk from slide to slide was common.
It wasn't the case when I was there!
(So you can see why the cow leh might have been so high when you hear old timers talking about the past, but at some point, it wasn't like that...warning #1).

Than came the "Big Chill" of 96 or 97???
Which now took a bad situation and made it worse.
BUT, did the Ministry over react?????
They removed the Cow LEH (which was an issue before the big chill), so they finally took the right steps
to do something (just ironic that they used a different reason to address the issue than the actual facts!!??)
And did they "Over React" by putting in the 6pt Restriction.
Remember, said all but 2 of our elk were less than 6pt (so was there an issue????).

Now did these changes make it worse...no.
But, I don't think targeting just the mature bulls is a great idea.

So, are we addressing why elk are not moving back to the high country???
Are we addressing what they need to move back to the high country???
Do they have places to survive thru the winter? because we cant have a high elk population if they cant survive the winters with no feed.
Do we have the money?
Is the Habitat right? (might be in a few years with some decent fires, but the ministry isn't doing dick!)


Kootenay Kid, does that answer the "Solutions" part for you??
Those answers have been on HBC for several years now.
Just no money and no incentive by the ministry to do anything.

So, the 1st problem to resolve, is a "#"!
How many elk do we want in the EK??
Then, once that is established, we have to look at the other issues to make it happen.

BIG PROBLEM!...
The Ministry has already stated THEY ONLY WANT APPROXIMATELY 12,000 HEAD OF ELK IN THE EK!
Sorry, but to me as an avid elk hunter and for future generation and to take pressure of other areas that we are seeing, THAT IS NOT ENOUGH!

I am mad, because we cant get thru problem #1 properly.
Only 12,000 head "is a problem, not a solution"!

[wideopenthrottle]

my avatar is my only elk...a few years ago..less than 1km from a GO couple hundred yards from bull river.....I have seen as many grizzly as elk in 3 trips up there..we were a group of 4 for 2 years getting our limit of WT with a bonus elk one year and a bonus goat the next...went 1 more time as a group of 3 the last year of 2 WT does and got our limit but lost one to a grizz...haven't been back to that area for 3 or 4 years now

[Bugle M In]

^^^^yup,
I am now spotting 2 or more gbear every season.
And, they are BIG!
And, from what the GO states, hang in the same areas that the elk are dropping their calves.
Also, see way more cats now too.
(never saw them before, but they like cow calls....so do the gbear….so don't sleep at the tree at high noon, as that is when I have had them come by)

[micus]

If Govt is the problem Why don't we all put our coconuts together and make a petition? I'm sure a rural MLA would sponsor it, lord knows I would sign.

heres the Template:

Petitions A fundamental concept of parliamentary democracy is the right of the public to have access to parliament by way of petition. A petition can be from an individual or group and can relate to the passage of a bill or the government’s consideration of an important public issue. Since the Legislative Assembly is a representative institution, it considers only those matters submitted to it by its own Members and petitions are no exception.
A petition addressed to the Legislative Assembly must be based on the template attached below, be drafted in respectful terms and must comply with the following basic rules:


All signatures must be original and written directly on the face of the petition, and not pasted or transferred to it. Petitions must be free of erasures or insertions.
If a petition consists of more than one sheet of signatures, the text of the petition must appear at the top of each sheet. Each person petitioning the Legislative Assembly of British Columbia must print his or her name and address and sign his or her name under the text of the petition.
Petitions must be written, typewritten or printed, and it is recommended that the paper be standard letter or legal size.
Petitioners must be residents of British Columbia.
Petitions must not request any expenditure, grant or charge on the public revenue, whether payable out of the consolidated revenue fund or out of moneys to be provided by the Legislative Assembly.

The form of a petition is prescribed by Standing Order 73 (https://www.leg.bc.ca/parliamentary-business/legislation-debates-proceedings/40th-parliament/6th-session/standingorders#73) and its accompanying Appendix A (https://www.leg.bc.ca/parliamentary-business/legislation-debates-proceedings/40th-parliament/6th-session/standingorders#AppendixA).
SAMPLE To the Honourable the Legislative Assembly of the Province of British Columbia, in Legislature Assembled:
The petition of the undersigned, ____________________________ , of the ____________________ , states that: [here state the object of the petition, briefly setting forth the reasons therefor].
Your petitioners respectfully request that the Honourable House [take such action as may be deemed appropriate.]
Dated __________ day of ____________________ , 20__ .
Name (printed) Address (printed)
Signature


Points I would consider:

-Restrict all Cow limited entry hunting to 1 tag per MU
-Eliminate Antlerless deer hunting where it exists
-a statement of intent wishing to see Elk / ungulate number significantly increased above the current levels for the enjoyment and prosperity of BC residents


I am just thinking out loud. Just saying, seems like lots of people talking about nothing getting done by the govt and hunters getting walked on all the time. Seems kind of like its nut-up or shut up time. Is there a way to voice concerns outside of petitioning? the BCWF online petition for cat hunting got 10000 signatures pretty quick, there are a lot more people invested in ungulate hunting than cat hunting in the province. Why don't we just do the same thing for our antlered friends?

Just sayin.

I hear stories from my uncle about how the EK used to be so ridiculously game-rich ( hes got a couple 360+ bulls hanging in his trophy room) and how he would go out for an afternoon in one of his holes and would be nearly guaranteed something, counting 150 head of mulies in a day, never shooting a WT under 4x4 etc etc. Drives me crazy thinking about it honestly. Anyway, rant over.

Mike.

[Bugle M In]

^^^^definitely a part of the puzzle.
Boxhitch is right, we 1st need to figure out what lands are winter range, what can be made available for winter range and do we (can we) expropriate land that is "vital" for being winter range.
Get it on a map for all to see.
See where the problems lie.

We have to establish exactly "why" game like elk are not travelling back into the back country.
Food(habitat) or preds or both or other.

Establish why are calf recruitment is so pitiful.
Come to some realization that a 6pt restriction may have done more damage than good.
(the survey I saw showed how few 6pt bulls existed, AND, do we know if any are really getting mature, 6 years or older or are they barely hitting 4 years old)

The Cow LEH and, or actually better so, zone x should be scrapped.
(We need to address the real issues, not Cull our breeding stalk because they are staying "in town")

Aerial killing of wolves is a must, and re-establish a GBear season (Fall season also).

As far as logging and the beetle, I have no clue where to start there, so I am not going to act like I do on here.
Only to say some logging is great, but too much is too much and is detrimental.
Something that I honestly believe has caused far greater problems in the "entire province" and why we
see so many different species in different regions getting shit kicked.
(And yes, maybe wolves have been the only real benefactor of this!!?)

BUT, it starts by telling the ministry to F'off and say NO, that game plan of only 12,000 head is not a
solution for hunters, or for wildlife or for future generations.

NOTE: this isn't really a Bio issue
This is a Mandate by the higher ups in the Ministry listening to other Private Sectors, not hunters and outdoorsman/ladies.

This is about changing the entire outlook of Conservation and for once and all, addressing the real issues to have a place with real Conservation in mind.
And that means some stuff has to be left natural, undeveloped.
(It doesn't mean it has to be a National Park)
Just areas that are deemed off limits to development.
But on limits for "enhancement" (unlike parks).

[HarryToolips]

If Govt is the problem Why don't we all put our coconuts together and make a petition? I'm sure a rural MLA would sponsor it, lord knows I would sign.

heres the Template:

Petitions A fundamental concept of parliamentary democracy is the right of the public to have access to parliament by way of petition. A petition can be from an individual or group and can relate to the passage of a bill or the government’s consideration of an important public issue. Since the Legislative Assembly is a representative institution, it considers only those matters submitted to it by its own Members and petitions are no exception.
A petition addressed to the Legislative Assembly must be based on the template attached below, be drafted in respectful terms and must comply with the following basic rules:


All signatures must be original and written directly on the face of the petition, and not pasted or transferred to it. Petitions must be free of erasures or insertions.
If a petition consists of more than one sheet of signatures, the text of the petition must appear at the top of each sheet. Each person petitioning the Legislative Assembly of British Columbia must print his or her name and address and sign his or her name under the text of the petition.
Petitions must be written, typewritten or printed, and it is recommended that the paper be standard letter or legal size.
Petitioners must be residents of British Columbia.
Petitions must not request any expenditure, grant or charge on the public revenue, whether payable out of the consolidated revenue fund or out of moneys to be provided by the Legislative Assembly.

The form of a petition is prescribed by Standing Order 73 (https://www.leg.bc.ca/parliamentary-business/legislation-debates-proceedings/40th-parliament/6th-session/standingorders#73) and its accompanying Appendix A (https://www.leg.bc.ca/parliamentary-business/legislation-debates-proceedings/40th-parliament/6th-session/standingorders#AppendixA).
SAMPLE

To the Honourable the Legislative Assembly of the Province of British Columbia, in Legislature Assembled:
The petition of the undersigned, ____________________________ , of the ____________________ , states that: [here state the object of the petition, briefly setting forth the reasons therefor].
Your petitioners respectfully request that the Honourable House [take such action as may be deemed appropriate.]
Dated __________ day of ____________________ , 20__ .
Name (printed) Address (printed)
Signature


Points I would consider:

-Restrict all Cow limited entry hunting to 1 tag per MU
-Eliminate Antlerless deer hunting where it exists
-a statement of intent wishing to see Elk / ungulate number significantly increased above the current levels for the enjoyment and prosperity of BC residents


I am just thinking out loud. Just saying, seems like lots of people talking about nothing getting done by the govt and hunters getting walked on all the time. Seems kind of like its nut-up or shut up time. Is there a way to voice concerns outside of petitioning? the BCWF online petition for cat hunting got 10000 signatures pretty quick, there are a lot more people invested in ungulate hunting than cat hunting in the province. Why don't we just do the same thing for our antlered friends?

Just sayin.

I hear stories from my uncle about how the EK used to be so ridiculously game-rich ( hes got a couple 360+ bulls hanging in his trophy room) and how he would go out for an afternoon in one of his holes and would be nearly guaranteed something, counting 150 head of mulies in a day, never shooting a WT under 4x4 etc etc. Drives me crazy thinking about it honestly. Anyway, rant over.

Mike.
Everything looks good Mike, except for the getting rid of the antlerless season as it pertains to whitetails - they are a prolific, risiliant breed unlike any other, yes maybe the 2 doe limit in reg 4 was a bit much, but the current season is not bad at all - if you want to educate yourself on the subject, I suggest reading Whitetail Advantage, cheers...

[micus]

Everything looks good Mike, except for the getting rid of the antlerless season as it pertains to whitetails - they are a prolific, risiliant breed unlike any other, yes maybe the 2 doe limit in reg 4 was a bit much, but the current season is not bad at all - if you want to educate yourself on the subject, I suggest reading Whitetail Advantage, cheers...

I agree, allowing a singular WT doe probably isn't going to mean the end of the world for the POP. There was a time not so long ago that there was a mulie doe hunt in Reg 4 that basically destroyed the population around here.

as far as a petition goes, I think we could leave a lot of requests out and simply put forth a statement of intent wishing the desired ungulate numbers to be increased above current levels. that at least would get the ball rolling and let the powers that be know there is a group of vocal people with a vested interest in the provinces ungulates.

[Bugle M In]

I think the main issue is that we don't really have a say any longer.
Maybe at onetime, we had BCWF to speak for us.
And I know they have tried hard to "keep things open", because once shut down, it is hard to open again.
(Which is unfortunate, AND shouldn't be like that when a population rebounds)

But somehow, there is a real disconnect between hunters and the Ministry.
And I say Ministry because governments change (libs have had a lot more time to have made it better and
didn't, and the ndp are Anti)
But there are some just below to top in the chain of command who never lose their jobs.
Who have been there for too long, and probably have a tight relationship with the Private sector we never
hear about (that is just my thinking), and who never lose their positions even after an election, they just
end up with a different boss.

Look at Freshwater Society, where it is a lot of sports fisherman in there, and they do get their funding now from all sales of freshwater licensces to use towards conservation, whether habitat or restocking etc.
THEY (which is us) have a say and input on "what gets fixed" and "what amount of stock" a lake should have.
And due to this, a lot of lakes are very productive for people to use.
(Some are trophy, catch and release, which would be like an LEH in hunting to have some trophy spots)
Others are for everyone to take some home.

Hard comparism, trout are landlocked to a small pond, ungulates don't have that restriction, so it is harder.
BUT, we should have a say on what population of certain species to inhabitat a region overall.
And than find ways to make it happen.

It's seems to me, "Someone else" (not a hunter) is dictating the levels of game.
Which are "barely huntable" anymore.
And that is not a healthy solution.
That is poor game management.
That is not "preserving game" for future generations.

If wildlife is not "harvestable" and we don't manage it as such, than our wildlife is to me,
on the "Critical List" and at a high risk of being extinct down the road.
If we have a decent "huntable" population, than we have done our part for the future after we are gone.

Anti's just think if they stop hunting, they have solved the big problem.
Some get it is actually the habitat that needs protecting to save animals.

We have to get back control of "what we want" and how much.
The fight is with the Private Sectors who are wanting less wildlife.

[HarryToolips]

I agree, allowing a singular WT doe probably isn't going to mean the end of the world for the POP. There was a time not so long ago that there was a mulie doe hunt in Reg 4 that basically destroyed the population around here.

as far as a petition goes, I think we could leave a lot of requests out and simply put forth a statement of intent wishing the desired ungulate numbers to be increased above current levels. that at least would get the ball rolling and let the powers that be know there is a group of vocal people with a vested interest in the provinces ungulates.
Completely agree.........

[HarryToolips]

I think the main issue is that we don't really have a say any longer.
Maybe at onetime, we had BCWF to speak for us.
And I know they have tried hard to "keep things open", because once shut down, it is hard to open again.
(Which is unfortunate, AND shouldn't be like that when a population rebounds)

But somehow, there is a real disconnect between hunters and the Ministry.
And I say Ministry because governments change (libs have had a lot more time to have made it better and
didn't, and the ndp are Anti)
But there are some just below to top in the chain of command who never lose their jobs.
Who have been there for too long, and probably have a tight relationship with the Private sector we never
hear about (that is just my thinking), and who never lose their positions even after an election, they just
end up with a different boss.

Look at Freshwater Society, where it is a lot of sports fisherman in there, and they do get their funding now from all sales of freshwater licensces to use towards conservation, whether habitat or restocking etc.
THEY (which is us) have a say and input on "what gets fixed" and "what amount of stock" a lake should have.
And due to this, a lot of lakes are very productive for people to use.
(Some are trophy, catch and release, which would be like an LEH in hunting to have some trophy spots)
Others are for everyone to take some home.

Hard comparism, trout are landlocked to a small pond, ungulates don't have that restriction, so it is harder.
BUT, we should have a say on what population of certain species to inhabitat a region overall.
And than find ways to make it happen.

It's seems to me, "Someone else" (not a hunter) is dictating the levels of game.
Which are "barely huntable" anymore.
And that is not a healthy solution.
That is poor game management.
That is not "preserving game" for future generations.

If wildlife is not "harvestable" and we don't manage it as such, than our wildlife is to me,
on the "Critical List" and at a high risk of being extinct down the road.
If we have a decent "huntable" population, than we have done our part for the future after we are gone.

Anti's just think if they stop hunting, they have solved the big problem.
Some get it is actually the habitat that needs protecting to save animals.

We have to get back control of "what we want" and how much.
The fight is with the Private Sectors who are wanting less wildlife.
Completely agree with this too....

[boxhitch]

I think the main issue is that we don't really have a say any longer.
Maybe at onetime, we had BCWF to speak for us.
And I know they have tried hard to "keep things open", because once shut down, it is hard to open again.
(Which is unfortunate, AND shouldn't be like that when a population rebounds)

But somehow, there is a real disconnect between hunters and the Ministry.
And I say Ministry because governments change (libs have had a lot more time to have made it better and
didn't, and the ndp are Anti)
But there are some just below to top in the chain of command who never lose their jobs.
Who have been there for too long, and probably have a tight relationship with the Private sector we never
hear about (that is just my thinking), and who never lose their positions even after an election, they just
end up with a different boss.
Sorry, but I have to disagree. Though BCWF has fallen out of favour with some of the HBC crowd, they are still very much connected on all fronts. The ground level Gov't offices are also connected, and feed their input to those in Victoria where there are also concerns.
The issues of hunters are real and everyone knows them.
That is where it stops. At the top levels Hunters concerns get weighed against all the other woes of the population like schools, transit, health care, forestry jobs, etc ad nauseum
Best we can do AS A COLLECTIVE is write letters and call meetings starting at the MLA level and on up and build up that voice.
But we all know hunter apathy and how less than 2% really get involved, so don't hold your breath.

[browningboy]

Elk is the one animal I haven’t connected with, albeit I have put in the effort compared to others, been really close! I have always looked at going to the Koots but not sure where to go and hearing the doom and gloom don’t think it would be entirely different from other areas to a degree

[Bugle M In]

Elk is the one animal I haven’t connected with, albeit I have put in the effort compared to others, been really close! I have always looked at going to the Koots but not sure where to go and hearing the doom and gloom don’t think it would be entirely different from other areas to a degree

I wouldn't look at it that way (even though the way I speak makes it sound like that)
There is no comparison to the EK and it's landscape, even if the odds are so crappy at times.
Everyone should at least go there once if they hunt.
I go because it is an amazing place, it's become a place where I have spent many hours with my dad and uncles, and other relatives and friends over the years….tradition.

I am just pissed because there is no need for game like elk to drop to those levels as of late.
And worse, to have had a policy to drop elk that low.
And the worst, now to only want about half of the elk compared to when hunting for elk was half decent.

They got all hung up about the elk in the lowlands and wanted them Culled, which they did and too much
they realized in the end.

THE BIGGER Problem is:
No one was listening to a lot of experienced hunters that elk were "not in the back country".
So, zone X was not only culling elk from the lowland #'s, but from all the #'s of elk.
(for the most part anyways).

If they want no more elk than 8,000 in the Zone X regions...fine!
But what they "failed" to do was get elk to move back and repopulate the areas outside of Zone X.

And that's were another member with experience stated it will be hard to repopulate the back country
without elk in the low country like zoneX
It's just F'd thinking at this point and no desire it seems to correct it properly or to listen to hunters.

But hunting the EK is an experience everyone should try, at least once.
The Goat hunting can be spectacular and nothing else compares to the views up top.

[HarryToolips]

^^^^if they're going to get the elk into the high country again, correct me if I'm wrong, but they'll have to hammer wolves as a first step..

[Huntingtyler123]

^^^^if they're going to get the elk into the high country again, correct me if I'm wrong, but they'll have to hammer wolves as a first step..

Agree 100000000%

[happyhunter]

^^^^if they're going to get the elk into the high country again, correct me if I'm wrong, but they'll have to hammer wolves as a first step..

Yup, not a bio but I’d guess good feed and low predators numbers would be just the carrot to get them moving up and changing their habits. Anyone think the low predator numbers is gonna happen anytime in this lifetime?

[drakfero]

Boys here is one of the reasons..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGtcm26vdd0&fbclid=IwAR2mZULPMx-Da4xHEITAP3Ykk7PncHYXp9fb5pWlu8F_HbfAB1S-dylPGTs&app=desktop

Hunting book says right from first pages..
Shelter , food , water..

Shelter: Its hard for animals to hide in couple of clicks long cut when there are no trees and trees over 15 feet. its just too thick , and i am not saying hide from people but from predators. All of us have seen what garbage BC forestry makes after they get they dollar. No "puck" given at all..

Food: If you see that youtube link i put higher above , that guy hit it big time. First 2 years after logging lots of food but no cover , than forestry sprays everything just to have trees they planted growing faster and getting more light. I think i read article or saw video , biologist were finding dead moose.. full bellies but no nutrition in the body all because it was sprayed on. If not sprayed on , all you see there is domestic cows eating all food game needs for winter.

Water: The spray stayed in the soil for 2 years so you can imagine where it ended.. In the water..

Now you wonder why all animals are on the farms? Think again.. Those animals we eat and we are feeding our children.

What we really need is group of lawyers-hunters and make big pressure on our government. I come from small country same size as Vancouver Island and we have more Red Stags than whole BC has elk (just to compare). How much longer we gonna be quiet? Sturgeon , grizzly , salmon.. Now they are trying cats.. We need to stand up TOGETHER !!!


We also need to reduce predators ourselves , dont rely on government. We are the last they wanna help.

[HarryToolips]

^^^^definitely concerning....maybe we should get a petition going to try and stop the forestry companies from using that spray??? We could also put it out more on mainstream media, to attempt to pressure them to stop using it even further...

[Wild one]

^^^^definitely concerning....maybe we should get a petition going to try and stop the forestry companies from using that spray??? We could also put it out more on mainstream media, to attempt to pressure them to stop using it even further...

Spraying is a hot topic and being considered as a factor on declining ungulate species (hot topic with moose) in BC and regions outside of B.C.

do some research and you could find support beyond just the hunting community on this one. As much as I don’t trust the weasel Weaver has a bone to pick with spraying in BC

[Bugle M In]

Predator/Wolf culling, Sure isn't going to make it worse!

But, there might be other issues causing it as well.
The original GO that had the area I go complained that there wasn't enough snowfall, thus no slides happening and thus, no fresh feed in the scree slopes, where many of the elk used to be in the 60's and 70's. (when you could see 30 or so at a time)
That GO sold, and said the valleys in the back were dead.(late 90's, bad winter)
The next GO who bought it, only lasted a few seasons, and basically said the same thing....dead in the back!
The latest GO lucked out and had a fire, and the benefits of no more cow leh.
(Early 2000's when things were getting better).
But again, he was saying it was pretty dead in the back.
I asked about the fire, and he said it burnt too hot, so it sucks.
And saying that there was no feed, due to lack of snow and fresh scree slopes (like the original GO)
But, around that time, a ton of logging came in, and cut out everything, everywhere due to beetle.
Now, the GO says there still is no elk, and yet he would question anyone who would say there is "no feed" in the back country, because theres tons now.
(Just no bedding areas!)

The best time was when the forestry companies came in and did some spot/selective logging, trying to target beetle killed trees (atleast I think that's what they were doing???)
BUT, that's when it was the best!
WT and elk loved it that way!

[rocksteady]

I personally do not believe the wolves are a problem.. been hunting in the EK for close to 30 years, seen 2 wolves..

Mismanaging seasons has more of an impact.. my opinion

[Dannybuoy]

I personally do not believe the wolves are a problem.. been hunting in the EK for close to 30 years, seen 2 wolves..

Mismanaging seasons has more of an impact.. my opinion
For the most part I believe you know what you are talking about .... in this case ... wrong wrong and wrong ! Although I do believe you haven't seen many wolves , it doesn't mean they aren't there !

[Shikari300WSM]

For the most part I believe you know what you are talking about .... in this case ... wrong wrong and wrong ! Although I do believe you haven't seen many wolves , it doesn't mean they aren't there !

I'm in the middle of that. I agree wolves are a problem. But not in general, just the overabundance that is helping cause an imbalance in ungulates. Wolves belong on the landscape at a managed level.

[f350ps]

I personally do not believe the wolves are a problem.. been hunting in the EK for close to 30 years, seen 2 wolves..

Mismanaging seasons has more of an impact.. my opinion
I'll have to agree with Rock on this, allowing 1000's of cow draws in the 90's sure impacted the herds! K

[jac]

Pretty sure humans are far more the problem then wolves The logging roads alone give predators a real advantage.
logging, farming, growing population all not good and I’m in the agriculture business so I’m no better!!

[happyhunter]

I personally do not believe the wolves are a problem.. been hunting in the EK for close to 30 years, seen 2 wolves..

Mismanaging seasons has more of an impact.. my opinion

My EK experience has been different then yours... I had 4 sightings one winter, 15 wolves in total. Seen a lot more tracks... hard to hide tracks in the snow.

[Bugle M In]

I'll have to agree with Rock on this, allowing 1000's of cow draws in the 90's sure impacted the herds! K

Yes, it did!
BUT, they got rid of most of that for a long time now (unless you consider zone x under 1100m)

AND, it appeared all was working.
I and my partners were finally really starting to see some cows.
Something I never reall saw in the 90's to be honest.
We were just bugling in bulls and cow calling and I think they came cause they were having a hard time
finding cows.

This whole problem re-appeared to get bad again around 2008, for us.

Having said that though, the GO wasn't feeling things were that great in the back.
We hunted the "Transistion Zone" as we called it.

But by then, Logging was just finishing off in the back.
And they took out lots of timber, from rock face to rock face (alpine to alpine almost)

So yes, way more wolf scat...at times, but not always.
Way more GBear and Cougars in general (where we never saw them at all back then)
And a hell of a lot of logging.
Windfall and Washouts.

All of that, pretty much in the mid 2000's! where I was.

Maybe the elk not in the back country is due to the 90's problem, and maybe if things had kept improving,
maybe we would have filled up the back country again.

BUT, why did the gains in the early 2000's due to the reg changes in 98 (?) "cause another COLLAPSE"???

That's the question?
(and zone x came on around the same time, for a double whammy, in my mind.)
I am not sure what has caused this.
All I am saying is, this is what was happening "physically" around the time when it was getting better and
than got worse than ever.

[Dannybuoy]

I'll have to agree with Rock on this, allowing 1000's of cow draws in the 90's sure impacted the herds! K
And the drainage where there are no cow draws ? Lots of places here in the WK where the elk pop has been reduced by wolves ..... lots of habitat , a few 6points taken every year , no cow season .

[browningboy]

I wouldn't look at it that way (even though the way I speak makes it sound like that)
There is no comparison to the EK and it's landscape, even if the odds are so crappy at times.
Everyone should at least go there once if they hunt.
I go because it is an amazing place, it's become a place where I have spent many hours with my dad and uncles, and other relatives and friends over the years….tradition.

I am just pissed because there is no need for game like elk to drop to those levels as of late.
And worse, to have had a policy to drop elk that low.
And the worst, now to only want about half of the elk compared to when hunting for elk was half decent.

They got all hung up about the elk in the lowlands and wanted them Culled, which they did and too much
they realized in the end.

THE BIGGER Problem is:
No one was listening to a lot of experienced hunters that elk were "not in the back country".
So, zone X was not only culling elk from the lowland #'s, but from all the #'s of elk.
(for the most part anyways).

If they want no more elk than 8,000 in the Zone X regions...fine!
But what they "failed" to do was get elk to move back and repopulate the areas outside of Zone X.

And that's were another member with experience stated it will be hard to repopulate the back country
without elk in the low country like zoneX
It's just F'd thinking at this point and no desire it seems to correct it properly or to listen to hunters.

But hunting the EK is an experience everyone should try, at least once.
The Goat hunting can be spectacular and nothing else compares to the views up top.


Getting the overall frustration, the biggest imo is the government doesn’t seem to really care, the mismanagement is crazy!

[rocksteady]

For the most part I believe you know what you are talking about .... in this case ... wrong wrong and wrong ! Although I do believe you haven't seen many wolves , it doesn't mean they aren't there !

3 years of a 10 day any antlerless season had way more impact than wolves..

[Bugle M In]

^^^^I have on question for the local elk hunters.

For me, I always hunted the Secondary River systems, not the main one like the Columbia or Kootenay.
(Not sure if the Bull would be considered a main or a secondary like I hunt)


But, have elk in the lowlands, along the Columbia say, always been as heavy a population, thus the
Zone X hunt imp lamented?
Or, did this supposed "over population" in this area become heavily populated in the 2000's??
(I know we would see the odd little herd crossing the Hwy beside the Columbia in the 90's, but noticed
more elk "grazing" in these same areas in the 2000's more).

Just trying to figure out if "development" of these areas inside ZoneX had a lot to do with people getting
upset with elk (which then wouldn't be the elk's fault).

Just trying to understand if Preds like wolves are responsible for chasing the game out in the back country.
If the habitat just got too screwed up?
(meaning, a lot of the areas went from beetle killed windfall, one extreme, to being logged like crazy, the other extreme)????

Makes sense that the drop in Cows in the 90's, thus the huge reduction in cow leh permits, did take a toll
on elk way up in the backcountry.
And that any gains that were being made by the mid 2000's just was "NOT long enough" to push elk to move back to the high country and repopulate there.
(They seemed to be coming back in the secondary valley where I hunt, but others were still saying nothing was deep in the back like they traditionally were).

Bad deal all around for us now going forward and the plans for what's next don't look that good.

[rocksteady]

I have my own theories as to the impact of the 3 yr, 10 day any antlerless season..

[Islandeer]

What is the FN harvest?

[338win mag]

What is the FN harvest?
Dont know, but as far as.... Elk harvested on private land. Maybe the land owners should have/keep stats on how many Elk are harvested on their personal land, make it law.
If FN aren't going to keep stats then land owners should be made to keep the data if they are letting FN hunt on their property.

[gunpower]

Nothing to do with the 6 point season, but I will put it in very basic terms. Before massive amounts of leh cow permits, and gos cow permits, youth and senior spike and cow permits there was a ton of elk in the EK, now not so much.
And we had everybody and their dog hunting the EK, that's one reason that the elk numbers dropped over the past few years. When they opened the WK , all we heard was that the rest of B.C. was hunting there private country !!!

[Bugle M In]

Here is a FB video with a pred issue for elk:

https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=1794873460564924

[gunpower]

mmmmmmmm..... Pull up any FSR from West Creston to just north of Cranbrook come Sept 11th and all you see if 5th wheels and trucks with quad decks/trailers. Yahk main, kidd, plumbob, don't even get me started on the bull ( you could put in a set of Traffic lights and a tim hortons at the entrance in sept).

I support people traveling to hunt and us all taking advantage of hunting opportunities as BC residents. BUT, as an EK resident, I can tell you this place fills up with the mass migration from LM / Vancouver/ surrey, van isl, etc etc in Sept. Not so much any more, The low numbers have keeped many away from the Elk Valley the past few seasons . My son who is an avid elk hunter didn't even bother to buy a tag last season as the Elk were far and few inbetween !! Mind you my grandson took a nice 6x6 bull !!!

[Bugle M In]

There are some areas that are and have always been traditionally busy.
Places like the Bull have been since the 70's.

2 seasons ago, we covered well over 100km in the day, down the main river and up many of the side roads towards the alpine and I think we hit 1 other camp.
Lots of lesser areas that held elk have seen a sharp drop off in hunters.
No where near the hunters in some valleys as compared to the 90's

Ask the guys in the Peace if it hasn't become busy the last 10 years or so, especially the last 5 because
of the crap in the EK.
And yes, the WK did get hit hard when it went from LEH to GOS, in part because the east was crap and the
fact that many knew there were some "big bulls" to be had in the WK.

[Bugle M In]

Hey just so you know we had to banquets in pass three weeks cranbrook and Fernie for our trophy competition 2 entries in cranbrook 3 in the elk valley yes indeed we have been shit kicked as far as the elk population is concern time for all you hunters in bc to get on board with lobbying your politicians to start putting some elbow grease into bring back our ungulate population and predator control or we are going to continue to live in a fish bowl of remember when we used to have elk etc all the best

Writing MLA's wouldn't hurt.
But somehow I think there are a few folks in the EK Region of the Ministry that need to be canned first.
What's the point otherwise.
They have been all over the place with policy and making a mess.

[Bugle M In]

What is the FN harvest?

Only the locals would be really able to say.
Where I go I doubt it is much of an issue (although I think there was a poached moose not too long ago)

But around Findlay I heard (a thread on hbc) there was a slaughter of an entire small herd (20 or so?)
during the winter, by FN.

Again, locals could chime in better.
But I think the bigger issue is just stupid policies.

How can you go from 500 cow LEH, then suddenly do away with it and put in 6pt restriction at the same time.
Then come up with a senior/youth and bow season and zone X????

And in the end, have less elk than we did before the changes in 96 (or was it 98??).

It's like, at 1st "we want elk" by the ministry.
Then it's like "we don't want them here" ?????
Bizarre....

[gunpower]

I personally do not believe the wolves are a problem.. been hunting in the EK for close to 30 years, seen 2 wolves..

Mismanaging seasons has more of an impact.. my opinion Use to see 2 wolf packs once and a well, when traveling to work at Fording River back in the 90's, this was after a 9 month strike. I have been retired for 6 years now , but have been told that there is 5-7 x's that number now !!!

[Bugle M In]

We have had wolves for years where I go.
Big one too for many years and from what I am told, would have scored #2 in BC.

2000, I had a pack of 18 come down the river single file.

Wolf tracks were always around our gut piles by the next morning.
And the worst year was around 2014 for scat all over the place.
Generally see 3 to 4 sets of prints working together on the river every year since.
Last season was the first time since I hunted to not see a wolf track.

[Shikari300WSM]

We have had wolves for years where I go.
Big one too for many years and from what I am told, would have scored #2 in BC.

2000, I had a pack of 18 come down the river single file.

Wolf tracks were always around our gut piles by the next morning.
And the worst year was around 2014 for scat all over the place.
Generally see 3 to 4 sets of prints working together on the river every year since.
Last season was the first time since I hunted to not see a wolf track.

Your last sentence is what says it all. Why would there be wolves in an area with no prey!!! Sad that's what it comes to in your area