Caribou Recovery Enguagement

[Cub Driver]

Government finally released information for Northeast BC caribou recovery.

https://engage.gov.bc.ca/caribou/section11agreement/?fbclid=IwAR2vOf3Yi060zhoHi8QWM_7Z557xW4J7dutIOI-ixOKBazwYCQ6XtzdBeJQ

[Cub Driver]

Potential Public Open House Schedule
•Open House April 1-4 (Chetwynd, FSJ, Mackenzie Tumbler Ridge)
•Open House April 8-11 (Revelstoke, Nakusp, Nelson)
•Open House April 15-18 (Cranbrook, Williams Lake, PG)

[huntingfamily]

Thanks for the update!

[Cub Driver]

Northeast Region public open house regarding Caribou

Chetwynd – Monday, April 1, 5:30 p.m. – 9:30 p.m., at Chetwynd Recreation Centre, 4552 North Access Road
Fort St. John – Tuesday, April 2, 5:30 p.m. – 9:30 p.m., at Pomeroy Hotel and Conference Centre, 11308 Alaska Road
Tumbler Ridge – Wednesday, April 3, 5:30 p.m. – 9:30 p.m., at Trend Mountain Hotel and Conference Centre, 375 Southgate Street
Dawson Creek – Thursday, April 4, 5:30 p.m. – 9:30 p.m., at Encana Events Centre,
#1 300 Highway 2
Meetings are currently being scheduled in other communities. Once dates and locations are confirmed, the schedule will be updated.

[Huevos]

Just saw this article in the national pos (https://nationalpost.com/news/six-wolves-saved-from-starvation-on-lake-superior-island-sent-to-michigan?utm_term=Autofeed&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook&fbclid=IwAR0bdYFf9FFaIFta2_Fvv0eD8IMn7tfGpeBS12gLD 8OvncYlpnYS5eeWBUM#comments-area)t . It is a perfect example of what will happen to the caribou once the government finishes killing all the moose and other game.
Please take the time to fill read the draft plan and give constructive feedback. I told them that they need to reopen the grizzly hunt everywhere there is a caribou reduction plan in place.

[Cub Driver]

Addition engagement dates.


Williams Lake- April 8 (http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/x-apple-data-detectors://48)
Prince George- April 9 (http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/x-apple-data-detectors://50)
Mackenzie- April 10 (http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/x-apple-data-detectors://51)
Quesnel- April 11 (http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/x-apple-data-detectors://52)

[coldbuc69]

100%. the Grizzly Bear ban was due to public opinion in the Lower Mainland and the Island. our wildlife should be Managed by Scientific Data and free from Public opinion

[NorthBcMoose]

Listened to the caribou meeting on April 1 in chetwynd. Sounded like there draft agreemens are already done and the public consultations going on are a bit of pr work to save face.
They talked about wolf culling being proved to be the best help to the caribou but how it was the most controversial in Vancouver
gets you wondering if there are maybe big businesses the US behind the scenes with motives to shut down some forms of industry here and if its even is about the caribou at all

[Wild one]

Listened to the caribou meeting on April 1 in chetwynd. Sounded like there draft agreemens are already done and the public consultations going on are a bit of pr work to save face.
They talked about wolf culling being proved to be the best help to the caribou but how it was the most controversial in Vancouver
gets you wondering if there are maybe big businesses the US behind the scenes with motives to shut down some forms of industry here and if its even is about the caribou at all

Y2Y does support it for sure and bet you dig deeper you will find more

[Cub Driver]

At the public engagement meeting in Fort St John last night the panel indicated the the Canada received 17 requests for "emergency orders" under SARA related to caribou in BC. They did not indicate who the 17 people or organizations were.

[eric]

Just come from the one here in Tumbler.
Looks like to me it's all about the reconciliation to the Natives,
Not one municipality has been asked for their input.
West Fraser and Canfor reps were in the crowd, also saying they haven't been consulted.
Makes one wonder where it's all headed.

[Wild one]

This consolation is sounding similar to what I am hearing from friends in Alberta regarding the castle park in the south and bighorn in central. Neither of these have anything to do with FN but instead NDP govt and environmental groups

likely some of the same players are involved

[Cub Driver]

To me it does not matter what the driver behind the caribou recovery is. Wildlife, including Caribou has been mismanaged. If we as a society are unwilling to give up something, the caribou will not survive. This may mean less logging, mining, oil and gas, some job loss, some access restrictions, less return to investors etc. The caribou only have their environment and habitat. Caribou cannot speak for themselves, so if we do not speak for them, we will loose them. Until habitat is restored, predators need to be eliminated or controlled in these caribou areas. Ultimately, wolves and other predators will not be a problem if they have nothing to eat.
An internet search indicated that some enviromental groups, including Y2Y pettioned the federal Government under the SARA legislation for protection for these caribou. This to me does not matter! If we do not protect the wildlife and their habitat we will have nothing to hunt, and the anti's will win by default.

[Darksith]

after reading through all of that it really looks like they are still sitting on the fence in all aspects.

No snowmobile closures as of yet...coming in may though after community consultation
making sure industry is looked after...like sorry too bad at this point in time is my opinion
Trying to ensure no federal orders come down (so put on a good face to keep the feds out but don't really do much that will be effective)
working on reconciliation...I don't even understand how that is relevant to protecting the caribou

Im not very impressed with this. They had no problem locking down ATV for hunting in region 3 after the fires, but are super worried about snowmobile clubs?

[KodiakHntr]

What industry is being looked after? How do you figure that?

In Chetwynd the West Fraser rep flat out said that if it is pushed through the way it is written that their mill will close and jobs will be gone overnight.

That town will die out.

[eric]

So Cub Driver, please explain why the Caribou up in the Yukon or disappearing..Zero industrial activity up there, something else is making it happen.
How would you like it if you were the one losing your job over this..

[Cub Driver]

Caribou are declining in the Northern Rockies where there in no development (BC northern herds) as well. There is no or insufficient research being done regarding all northern caribou herds to explain the declines. If there is no agreement regarding the local central group of the southern mountain caribou herds, the Feds can and probably will issue an emergency order that local people or the provincial government will have no control over and the results could be much more severe. If the Feds issue an emergency order it will have an impact on all southern herds from Graham herd all the way south to the border.

[Iron Sighted]

So Cub Driver, please explain why the Caribou up in the Yukon or disappearing..Zero industrial activity up there, something else is making it happen.
How would you like it if you were the one losing your job over this..

Same issue with the Naraway herd, there is no real industry out there, but they are declining. Doing nothing because we are uncertain is not the answer either, clearly something has to be tried(that does not mean that I think this proposal is necessarily the correct way to go about this).

I was also at the Tumbler Ridge meeting, and to be honest, if people want to be heard and have their opinions actually considered instead of going in one ear and out the other then I'd suggest less angry ranting, wolf whistling and cheering after comments, and accusatory statements being thrown around with no real supporting evidence, it just makes folks sound less credible even if the point they are trying to make is legitimate.

I have heard more than a couple people in town state that there would be no problem if all caribou were just helped along their already declining path towards extirpation......makes me not so proud to be a member of the community.

[Wild one]

I can understand that habitat needs to be put aside for future wildlife and caribou are declining. The issue lies with this situation looks more like groups exploiting the caribou as an excuse to shut the area down without evidence that this will save the caribou heard at all

Is this really about caribou or is it really an agenda to create a protected area and caribou are just a tool used to push for it.

[KodiakHntr]

Caribou are declining in the Northern Rockies where there in no development (BC northern herds) as well. There is no or insufficient research being done regarding all northern caribou herds to explain the declines. If there is no agreement regarding the local central group of the southern mountain caribou herds, the Feds can and probably will issue an emergency order that local people or the provincial government will have no control over and the results could be much more severe. If the Feds issue an emergency order it will have an impact on all southern herds from Graham herd all the way south to the border.


Nailed it. With Federal intervention there won’t be anybody who is happy with the outcome...

[KodiakHntr]

I have heard more than a couple people in town state that there would be no problem if all caribou were just helped along their already declining path towards extirpation......makes me not so proud to be a member of the community.


Surely you can understand their position though? If you and all your neighbors were faced with losing everything you’ve worked for your entire life and potentially becoming homeless and unable to provide for your children, wouldn’t you see more value in your family’s well being than the lives of 66 animals?


Don’t get me wrong, I think that caribou are an iconic species indicative of wilderness, and I believe something has to be done to save them, but I also strongly believe that there has to be an economic impact assessment completed before there is a recovery plan implemented that will impact so many families.

[horshur]

The solution is not the cause and there is plenty of examples that suggest that habitat right now is not the limiting factor...just look at historical records. The remaining habitat is the current situation and yet numbers continue to decline..

[horshur]

Qualify..habitat that will negate predation is several decades away...the habitat that gives separation and minimizes apparent competition does not exist currently...

[338win mag]

The solution is not the cause and there is plenty of examples that suggest that habitat right now is not the limiting factor...just look at historical records. The remaining habitat is the current situation and yet numbers continue to decline..
The Caribou are declining in the arctic as well ....I have a friend who was 40 years in the arctic working as a scientist (anthropologist) he scratches his head on the decline there, habitat may be part of it, but not all.

[horshur]

There is lots of historical evidence ..read some of Charles Kay. What existed that we tended to take for granted..was not natural.

[huntingfamily]

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=2123823797665029&id=885367448177343
https://www.facebook.com/stoptheclosure/

[Iron Sighted]

Surely you can understand their position though? If you and all your neighbors were faced with losing everything you’ve worked for your entire life and potentially becoming homeless and unable to provide for your children, wouldn’t you see more value in your family’s well being than the lives of 66 animals?


Don’t get me wrong, I think that caribou are an iconic species indicative of wilderness, and I believe something has to be done to save them, but I also strongly believe that there has to be an economic impact assessment completed before there is a recovery plan implemented that will impact so many families.

I understand the sentiment, but people need to act like adults if they expect to be treated accordingly. I am P.O.ed like everyone else in the area about having no voice in the discussion, and I also suspect that the concerns raised in these meetings will be summarily dismissed because I believe the planning is done already and the decisions are made, just not yet formalized.

I'm not seeing a solution to this issue that is going to be amicable to all the different stakeholders that is for sure.

[KodiakHntr]

I understand the sentiment, but people need to act like adults if they expect to be treated accordingly. I am P.O.ed like everyone else in the area about having no voice in the discussion, and I also suspect that the concerns raised in these meetings will be summarily dismissed because I believe the planning is done already and the decisions are made, just not yet formalized.

I'm not seeing a solution to this issue that is going to be amicable to all the different stakeholders that is for sure.

Its an easy thing to say, to tell people to act like adults, but when people feel their backs are against the wall...
And as much as people hate to acknowledge it, species of animals have been dying off for as long as there has been animals. Don’t see many short faced bears, north american cheetahs, or mastadons roaming around these days... Some species have been able to adapt and thrive with changing conditions (ie, whitetails) and others are dying out through a number of factors (caribou).

However, as sad as it is, I have zero doubt that that caribou will suffer the same fate as wolves, where people concerned for their livelihoods and ways of life will take matters into their own hands.

It was fairly evident at the Chetwynd meeting that as soon as the one speaker mentioned that the culling of wolves was difficult to sell to people in Vancouver that people felt they weren’t being heard.
When people in FSJ heard that grizzlies were a significant predator of caribou calves and the biologist uttered the words “the innocent grizzly bears” and then questioned why the crowd was laughing at him that they KNEW they weren’t being heard and that the southern caribou herd held greater value to the people in Vancouver than the people and economy who finance those same folks in Vancouver...

The writing is on the wall for those herds if Gov’t doesn’t immediately show that they are listening to local residents concerns. The only way a recovery plan succeeds, is if people work towards its success.

[325]

I think part of the problem is a tangible lack of trust between many BC residents and the government. The current government has already demonstrated that they will depart from evidence based wildlife management when it suits their political needs (i.e. grizzly hunt ban). It's really easy to understand why residents are skeptical of any management plans implemented by the government, as the motivations may be more political than rational.

[limit time]

Maybe, like the buffalo, it was put on earth by a higher power to provide food until we could fend/farm for ourselves?
IMO, what was won’t always be. We just can’t control the natural world or what’s on it forever . IMO

[Cub Driver]

I attended a meeting on March 28, 2018 essentially to start a working group regarding Central Group Caribou Recovery. Over 30 people attended. The intent was to form a working group using a Structured Decision Making process to look at various options for recovery. A broad cross section of the area attended: provincial government (FLINROD), MLA, Oil and Gas Commission, several local mayors, Minisrty of Energy and Mines, several forest licenses, BC Snowmobile Federation, Mining Association of BC, ATV club, hunters, guide outfitter, BC Timber Sales, etc. The government did not follow through with this process, that has eventully lead to all the negative reaction to the current caribou engagement, which in my opinion they rightfully deserve.

INVITATION FOR INFORMATION SESSION
Working towards a new caribou Recovery Implementation Plan for the south Peace
The Ministry of Forests, Lands, Natural Resource Operations and Rural Development (FLNRORD) is
developing an engagement process to explore management scenarios for recovering caribou herds in the
South Peace region. We invite you to participate in an information session scheduled for Wednesday,
March 28th at the B.C. Oil & Gas Commission office in Fort St John. The information meeting will
provide an opportunity for you to ask questions and share perspectives to help finalize the process before
it kicks off in spring 2018.
The proposed engagement process involves bringing together a multi-party consultative committee of 20
to 25 individuals representing a variety of interests to review and analyze what options are available to
support caribou recovery under different scenarios. The Committee will be tasked with making
recommendations to Government that will be considered for inclusion in a comprehensive plan for the
Central Group. This plan is intended to replace the 2013 Implementation Plan for the Ongoing
Management of South Peace Northern Caribou (also known as the “Peace Northern Caribou Plan” or
“PNCP”).
The proposed engagement process will follow the principles and steps of Structured Decision-Making
(SDM). SDM offers a structured methodology for a multi-party committee to quantify, qualify and
analyze the impacts of various management scenarios. FLNRORD is applying SDM to caribou recovery
planning throughout the province, with this Northeast opportunity as the pilot process.
The purpose of the information session is to provide an overview of the SDM process and what would be
required for participation. The meeting will provide an opportunity to share concerns and ideas about the
process and discuss who would be best suited to serve on the Committee.

South Peace Caribou Recovery Structured-Decision Making Information Session
Date: Wednesday, March 28th 2018
Time: 9:00 AM – 4:30 PM
Location: B.C. Oil & Gas Commission (6534 Airport Rd, Fort St John)

[Sitkaspruce]

After the meeting inn FSJ, it just confirmed my thoughts that this has nothing to do with Caribou and everything to do with UNDRIP

This is all about reconciliation and they are using the iconic caribou as a smoke and mirrors magic act.

The West Moberly Band has no plans to log their Woodland Lic., Saulteau, who packed up and moved from Manitoba to settle on the shores on Moberly lake only hunted caribou when they were starving, it is not nor was never their main food source.

This whole thing is about taking Treaty 8 bands and giving them what they want.....land, resources and money. The dams are planning a big part in these deal as well, Loss of traditional land, burial sites, water, resources etc. are all factors that are being avoided in the caribou discussion.

Just wait until the Blueberry, Halfway, Doig, Prophet Riover and Fort Nelson bands get their "caribou" agreements. My guess is we can kiss good buy all of the eastern slope of the Rockies for any recreational activities, unless you pay up.

Cheers

SS

[338win mag]

After the meeting inn FSJ, it just confirmed my thoughts that this has nothing to do with Caribou and everything to do with UNDRIP

This is all about reconciliation and they are using the iconic caribou as a smoke and mirrors magic act.

The West Moberly Band has no plans to log their Woodland Lic., Saulteau, who packed up and moved from Manitoba to settle on the shores on Moberly lake only hunted caribou when they were starving, it is not nor was never their main food source.

This whole thing is about taking Treaty 8 bands and giving them what they want.....land, resources and money. The dams are planning a big part in these deal as well, Loss of traditional land, burial sites, water, resources etc. are all factors that are being avoided in the caribou discussion.

Just wait until the Blueberry, Halfway, Doig, Prophet Riover and Fort Nelson bands get their "caribou" agreements. My guess is we can kiss good buy all of the eastern slope of the Rockies for any recreational activities, unless you pay up.

Cheers

SS

Everything you say is true, I have alot of respect for your thoughts.

[limit time]

I’ve always said , have fun buying tags from the FN.

[Ohwildwon]

500 dead wolves vs. 500 lost jobs: Town balks at potential cost of saving caribou in northeastern B.C.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/caribou-jobs-wolves-chetwynd-northeastern-british-columbia-1.5087317

[Wild one]

So high moose numbers are to blame for caribou declining. Odd they are saying industry is causing moose numbers to increase yet moose numbers are declining. The reality funny part is industry is also blamed when you hear talk of moose numbers are declining.

Now what is really going on here because when you get contradictions like this it one of 2 reasons. Someone does not know WTF they are talking about and is just throwing out BS answers to a problem they can’t figure out or someone is using a known issue as an excuse to push something through

Either way I am smelling BS and Sitkaspruce might be into something or at min possibly joint cooperation to benefit 2 agendas

[whitetailsheds]

After the meeting inn FSJ, it just confirmed my thoughts that this has nothing to do with Caribou and everything to do with UNDRIP

This is all about reconciliation and they are using the iconic caribou as a smoke and mirrors magic act.

The West Moberly Band has no plans to log their Woodland Lic., Saulteau, who packed up and moved from Manitoba to settle on the shores on Moberly lake only hunted caribou when they were starving, it is not nor was never their main food source.

This whole thing is about taking Treaty 8 bands and giving them what they want.....land, resources and money. The dams are planning a big part in these deal as well, Loss of traditional land, burial sites, water, resources etc. are all factors that are being avoided in the caribou discussion.

Just wait until the Blueberry, Halfway, Doig, Prophet Riover and Fort Nelson bands get their "caribou" agreements. My guess is we can kiss good buy all of the eastern slope of the Rockies for any recreational activities, unless you pay up.

Cheers

SS


THIS!!

Was interesting to see the policy advisor from West Moberly on stage with other panel members in Dawson Creek.
When asked of these discussion/ info meetings, and of the process over all in regards to caribou recovery, responded quite non-chalantly, almost bored by saying the 3 levels of government that is required to be involved are! Provincial/ Federal, West Moberly, and Salteau was all that is required...and all that is happening!
Almost could hear him saying, "f$%k you, and f&% off....thanks for coming!"

[Jordan f.]

So high moose numbers are to blame for caribou declining. Odd they are saying industry is causing moose numbers to increase yet moose numbers are declining. The reality funny part is industry is also blamed when you hear talk of moose numbers are declining.

Now what is really going on here because when you get contradictions like this it one of 2 reasons. Someone does not know WTF they are talking about and is just throwing out BS answers to a problem they can’t figure out or someone is using a known issue as an excuse to push something through

Either way I am smelling BS and Sitkaspruce might be into something or at min possibly joint cooperation to benefit 2 agendas

The way I read it. They aren't claiming logging (in general) creates more moose (in general). They are saying clear cutting old growths allow moose to move in (creating a higher moose density in that specific area, that wasn't moose habitat in prior years).

So you could say both things. Without contradicting yourself.

[Wild one]

The way I read it. They aren't claiming logging (in general) creates more moose (in general). They are saying clear cutting old growths allow moose to move in (creating a higher moose density in that specific area, that wasn't moose habitat in prior years).

So you could say both things. Without contradicting yourself.

Your trying too hard to give them credit here lol

[Dannybuoy]

THIS!!

Was interesting to see the policy advisor from West Moberly on stage with other panel members in Dawson Creek.
When asked of these discussion/ info meetings, and of the process over all in regards to caribou recovery, responded quite non-chalantly, almost bored by saying the 3 levels of government that is required to be involved are! Provincial/ Federal, West Moberly, and Salteau was all that is required...and all that is happening!
Almost could hear him saying, "f$%k you, and f&% off....thanks for coming!"
That's the same opinion of the Dawson cr meeting that my bro-inlaw came away with ....

[338win mag]

So high moose numbers are to blame for caribou declining. Odd they are saying industry is causing moose numbers to increase yet moose numbers are declining. The reality funny part is industry is also blamed when you hear talk of moose numbers are declining.

Now what is really going on here because when you get contradictions like this it one of 2 reasons. Someone does not know WTF they are talking about and is just throwing out BS answers to a problem they can’t figure out or someone is using a known issue as an excuse to push something through

Either way I am smelling BS and Sitkaspruce might be into something or at min possibly joint cooperation to benefit 2 agendas
^^^^^^^I suspect this

[Wild one]

^^^^^^^I suspect this

My bets too but never underestimate the stupidity of human beings. For this reason I never rule out stupid lol

[IronNoggin]

The anti's are really ramping up their efforts on this one.
Today alone the Sierra Club, Wildsight & Dogwood all are circulating emails, complete with form letters & contact information, requesting all their sheep to send in comments of support.

I sent mine quite some time ago, as have most I know.
Hope we will carry the day, but it's looking a tad nervous... :cry:

Nog

[Rob Chipman]

Wildone:

"So high moose numbers are to blame for caribou declining. Odd they are saying industry is causing moose numbers to increase yet moose numbers are declining. The reality funny part is industry is also blamed when you hear talk of moose numbers are declining.

Now what is really going on here because when you get contradictions like this it one of 2 reasons. Someone does not know WTF they are talking about and is just throwing out BS answers to a problem they can’t figure out or someone is using a known issue as an excuse to push something through "

There's a third way of looking at it, and I'll admit I'm kind of thinking out loud, so don't nail me to any walls here.

Step 1, recognize you're reading a news article written by a reporter who probably doesn't understand the underlying caribou issue, isn't really exploring that with the caribou bio, but is writing a headline grabbing article that plays off not only the traditional urban/rural divide but also the tried and true tactic of fanning suspicions;

Step 2 - look at what actual caribou bios are saying about moose, deer, caribou and apparent competition and see if that conflicts with or supports the idea that moose/deer numbers can be both decreasing but still at levels high enough compared to historical numbers wherein they can still be a threat to caribou.

The second idea is completely workable as far as I understand things (I'm basing this on what I understood Rob Serrouya, a caribou bio, to have explained in a presentation I attended at the last BCWF AGM).

Caribou exploit habitat that contributes to their predator evasion strategy (they don't live in really wolf friendly habitat). We disrupt that habitat with the result of expanding moose and deer populations. Those populations both attract *and* better tolerate wolf predation, but they bring predators in closer contact with caribou who now have less habitat in which to evade predation. Caribou don't tolerate the predation as well, having different short term anti-predation strategies and slower reproductive rates. While moose and deer survive the wolves the caribou enter a predator pit.

I think we all understand that aspect of the problem, which is why habitat restoration (a long term process) can't work on it's own without predator suppression or suppression of apparent competitors like moose and deer and without maternal penning (the short term fixes).

Good and fine.

Consider this aspect of the numbers: in a specific habitat that was originally caribou habitat but has been disrupted, moose and deer numbers rise as habitat that is favourable to them increases. Wolf and other predator populations grow as a result of moose and deer population increases, but they lag that growth. You need more deer and moose before you get more wolves.

As wolf population grows and caribou are threatened the moose and deer pops decline from the peak due to both predation *as well as bio recommended more liberal human harvest rules* they are no longer growing but in decline. However, even in decline they're still high enough that they support enough wolves that caribou can't survive the increased predation load.

If you look at moose numbers from a moose-centric point of view you conclude "Moose pops are declining", but if you look at it from a caribou-centric POV you still say "Moose pops have increased and are a threat".

Granted, I'm spit-balling with this, but it's to put the conspiracy theory aspect of caribou recovery into perspective. And that really brings us to your comment "Your trying too hard to give them credit here lol"

Who's the "them" that we're giving credit too? Is everyone out there against us and common sense?

Does government have a hidden agenda? I'll bet you $20 they do, even if its not a conscious one.
Do FNs have agendas in addition to caribou recovery? Say, more control or sovereignty? I'll bet you $20 they do.
Does media have a single minded agenda of simply selling more newsprint/website content regardless of accuracy and long term effect? Again, I know which way I'm betting.

But are the bios doing the work part of a conspiracy? And are they citing both increasing and decreasing numbers of moose in order to bamboozle the public? I don't think so. I think the other players probably cherry pick scientific knowledge (we've seen that with DFO quite recently, right?), but I think the actual bios on the ground are probably shooting as straight as they can.

We may disagree on this, but consider: if we call for science to be the driver in wildlife management, but then in the next breath we say we don't trust the bios on the ground, how do we move forward? As I recently heard a guy describe it "Science without action is research, but action without science is a fool's endeavour".

If we think we can trust the scientists it's incumbent upon us to draw a bright line between what the scientists tell us directly, and what other actors in this drama cherry pick and promote.

If we don't think we can trust the scientists (or some of them) we have an entirely different problem to address (do we try to determine which scientists to trust, or do we abandon calls for science entirely?)

Another problem your idea highlights is this: do we really know what's happening with moose numbers and why? Are we going to reach a misinformed opinion that an increase in moose numbers in a few restricted places that they share with caribou means moose are not only fine, but a threat, while bigger picture the facts are that moose are also in rough shape? That could happen. I find it hard to believe that Wildlife Defense League will get too worked up about saving moose if throwing moose and caribou under the bus buys wolves a short term reprieve from death (they starve rather than get shot).

[Darksith]

The way I read it. They aren't claiming logging (in general) creates more moose (in general). They are saying clear cutting old growths allow moose to move in (creating a higher moose density in that specific area, that wasn't moose habitat in prior years).

So you could say both things. Without contradicting yourself.

Exactly, your taking a condensed moose population, and your allowing it to spread out. It gives the impression of population decline, but its just population dispersement. That being said, I do believe that the moose numbers are going down and not simply dispersing.

[Wild one]

Rob with out getting too in-depth there is a problem and clearly has been for a long time. The reasons for this can truly vary

we all openly admit to and preach about the lack of funding affecting the quality of science based management for starters.

I think we all support sound solid scientific management but that does not mean we are getting it all the time. This also does not mean you blindly follow what you are told because even the best human being with the best intentions are wrong at times

Supporting science based management does not mean follow like a sheep

[Rob Chipman]

"there is a problem and clearly has been for a long time"

I think that's right, but it seldom comes up. By "long time" I don't know what you mean, but I mean in excess of a century. The latest problem is just the extreme state of the longer one. I don't have good evidence, but if you read "Grass Beyond the Mountains" for example, he talks about lots of caribou in the Itchas. I'd like to hear what other people know about caribou pops in the Interior and North 100 years ago.

"lack of funding affecting the quality of science based management"

There's no question it's a problem, and one that needs to be addressed.

"I think we all support sound solid scientific management..." I'm not sure I'd agree, depending on how you define "we". I think we should test that proposition and take note of the results. If you include all voters then clearly not everyone supports science based management (WDL doesn't for example). I was watching the public meeting on Caribou in PG on the internet earlier - there are plenty of people in that room who don't believe the bios know what they're talking about - you can't tell me they really believe in science based management when compared to their own anecdotal knowledge based approach (and there's no shortage of those people anywhere).

"Supporting science based management does not mean follow like a sheep"

I'm not sure what you mean. The bios don't make policy - the government does. Do I recommend following the government like sheep? Clearly not. Like I wrote, there are a lot of players and a lot of agendas. That said, I think that if you want to find the highest number of trustworthy people, stick to the bios. Much lower ratio of hidden agendas. Those that do have hidden agendas are pretty obvious.

The main point remains: we should go to the original source on the science whenever possible. We should spend some money translating studies into material that's easy for the interested layman to access. We should avoid putting much trust in the MSM unless it's from an MSM source that has clearly established good trust.

Just for fun check this link on Gell Mann Amnesia Effect (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gell-Mann_amnesia_effect) - then don't succumb to the amnesia the next tine you read a newspaper! :-)

[Deaddog]

Lots of people in that room didn’t believe the bios as so often in the past it was the bios opinion with no data to back it up that set wildlife policy. Now we have “study” after study with no action from the study’s but are told to just “ trust” things will be done properly , it is no wonder that those of us north of hope have little faith in gov reps. Until the bios are given funding to act on study findings people will remain Leary of opinions .

The caribou consultation is one more example, a year of secret consulting behind closed doors and then five weeks consulting with the public and the communities that will be crushed by it. If this was south of hope and mills were going to be closing as a result you would see Horgan, Weaver ,Wilkinson all hovering around . Up in the north they send an ADM who really has no authority to change anything, it’s a travelling road show so they can say they listened , however the deal is already done

[boxhitch]

Heres an older info article for you Rob

maybe caribou are just being stressed out of existence throughout North America

https://www.cbc.ca/news/billion-dollar-caribou-simulating-caribou-1.2695322

fixed

[Rob Chipman]

boxhitch - thanks, but the link is missing something I think.

Deaddog -

You're kind of making my point both ways - "Lots of people in that room didn’t believe the bios...." and "Until the bios are given funding to act on study..."

Science without action is just research, but the bios don't set eh policy anyway - it's government who does that. We'd be well advised, I think, to help scientists by forcing government to help them.

I watched part of the PG Caribou engagement meeting. An audience member took the bios to task about not having any data or numbers to support the belief that they can recover caribou. The bio who answered was clearly a bit put off and replied "in my project area we've gone from 16 to 81 as a result of predator suppression and maternal penning, so how do you like those numbers?"

It's be damn simple to keep that bio honest and make him produce data and hard numbers, especially in comparison to keeping government honest (I suspect we agree on that).


I know that those of you beyond Hope think that the Lower Mainland gets everything it wants whenever it wants. That's because you're far away and from a distance we all look the same. Trust me, there are plenty of people here in the big city who pretty much feel the same way you do about who the government listens to. The urban/rural divide is magnified and exploited.

[Cub Driver]

More upcoming meeting across the province:

Mackenzie – Wednesday, April 10, 5:30 p.m. – 9:30 p.m., Mackenzie Recreation Centre, 400 Skeena Drive
Quesnel – Thursday, April 11, 5:30 p.m. – 9:30 p.m., Quesnel & District Seniors’ Centre, 461 Carson Avenue
Revelstoke – Monday, April 15, 5:30 p.m. to 9:30 p.m., Revelstoke Community and Aquatic Centre (Rooms MP2 and MP3) 600 Campbell Ave.
Nelson – Tuesday, April 16, 5:30 p.m. to 9:30 p.m., Prestige Lakeside Resort and Convention Centre
701 Lakeside Dr.
Nakusp – Wednesday, April 17, 5:30 p.m. to 9:30 p.m., Nakusp and District Sports Complex Auditorium 200 – 8th Ave. NW
McBride – Tuesday, April 23, 5:30 p.m. to 9:30 p.m., Robson Valley Community Centre
441 Columbia St.
Vanderhoof – Wednesday, April 24, 5:30 p.m. to 9:30 p.m., Nechako Valley Secondary School
2608 Bute Ave.
Clearwater – Monday, April 29, 5:30 p.m. to 9:30 p.m., Clearwater Secondary School 440 Murtle Cres.
Cranbrook – Tuesday, April 30, 5:30 p.m. to 9:30 p.m., Prestige Rocky Mountain Resort
209 Van Horne St.

[gcreek]

boxhitch - thanks, but the link is missing something I think.

Deaddog -

You're kind of making my point both ways - "Lots of people in that room didn’t believe the bios...." and "Until the bios are given funding to act on study..."

Science without action is just research, but the bios don't set eh policy anyway - it's government who does that. We'd be well advised, I think, to help scientists by forcing government to help them.

I watched part of the PG Caribou engagement meeting. An audience member took the bios to task about not having any data or numbers to support the belief that they can recover caribou. The bio who answered was clearly a bit put off and replied "in my project area we've gone from 16 to 81 as a result of predator suppression and maternal penning, so how do you like those numbers?"

It's be damn simple to keep that bio honest and make him produce data and hard numbers, especially in comparison to keeping government honest (I suspect we agree on that).


I know that those of you beyond Hope think that the Lower Mainland gets everything it wants whenever it wants. That's because you're far away and from a distance we all look the same. Trust me, there are plenty of people here in the big city who pretty much feel the same way you do about who the government listens to. The urban/rural divide is magnified and exploited.


Rob, even if the bios were honest and wanted to share what knowledge they have, they are still just puppets dancing on the govt. string and being told what to say and who to address it to.

I have personally watched the Anahim Lake moose and Caribou herds be depleted by predators in the last 25 years. The Itcha herd has gone from 2500 to 600 in the same time period that wolves and grizzlies became a huge issue with depredation of cattle herds in the same area. Have gone from witnessing herds of 20 to 40 moose on their wintering areas to seeing huge willow flats empty of anything but wolf tracks.

Yes, some human caused issues happened during this time period also but they are minute when you consider an area of 150,000 sq. miles. A huge portion of this area takes in two parks. Tweedsmuir once held a healthy population of caribou. There are none there now that I am aware of.

Ungulates in this province need a little help in controlling the animals that kill them to survive. It will not be a pretty sight to watch but it needs doing nonetheless.

[Darksith]

Rob, even if the bios were honest and wanted to share what knowledge they have, they are still just puppets dancing on the govt. string and being told what to say and who to address it to.

I have personally watched the Anahim Lake moose and Caribou herds be depleted by predators in the last 25 years. The Itcha herd has gone from 2500 to 600 in the same time period that wolves and grizzlies became a huge issue with depredation of cattle herds in the same area. Have gone from witnessing herds of 20 to 40 moose on their wintering areas to seeing huge willow flats empty of anything but wolf tracks.

Yes, some human caused issues happened during this time period also but they are minute when you consider an area of 150,000 sq. miles. A huge portion of this area takes in two parks. Tweedsmuir once held a healthy population of caribou. There are none there now that I am aware of.

Ungulates in this province need a little help in controlling the animals that kill them to survive. It will not be a pretty sight to watch but it needs doing nonetheless.

From the admitted few encounters I have had, but had them I have...I would say that the Bios are honest and want the exact same things we want. But they can't properly do their job without a budget. If they don't get real time numbers...facts...its hard to make recommendations that are beneficial to all parties involved. Yes the politicians and "budgets" are really to blame here. We need to remove so many things from general revenue in our province. First things first though, we need to stop the in fighting, the divisiveness among hunters and different hunting groups. Come together to get a voice, an international voice shouting at our politicians just like the anti's do, and then maybe then we can start to help the bios fix this problem

Our biggest problem is marketing. Right now we are advertising "kill the predators" but really the headline should read "Save the Caribou". Its much easier to get people on board with the latter headline than the prior...and you can't do one without the other.

[Cub Driver]

Update engagement schedule:
We have a change to our engagement schedule.

VALEMOUNT has been added to the schedule for APRIL 24th.

VANDERHOOF has now been changed to APRIL 25th instead of April 24th.

[Bugle M In]

From the admitted few encounters I have had, but had them I have...I would say that the Bios are honest and want the exact same things we want. But they can't properly do their job without a budget. If they don't get real time numbers...facts...its hard to make recommendations that are beneficial to all parties involved. Yes the politicians and "budgets" are really to blame here. We need to remove so many things from general revenue in our province. First things first though, we need to stop the in fighting, the divisiveness among hunters and different hunting groups. Come together to get a voice, an international voice shouting at our politicians just like the anti's do, and then maybe then we can start to help the bios fix this problem

Our biggest problem is marketing. Right now we are advertising "kill the predators" but really the headline should read "Save the Caribou". Its much easier to get people on board with the latter headline than the prior...and you can't do one without the other.

Exactly, it has to be spun in terms of "save the Caribou"

But the truth has to come out, that if wolves don't get culled, then we lose the Bou.
So far, they way I see it being spun on the news is that it is "logging" that is the issue, thus the whole
discussion to close off the whole area.

We all know the roads help the wolves (thus the logging issue), but if the wolves were removed, there
would be no issue.

I sure hope the folks that show up make a good point of expressing the real problem which is Preds.
The GBear ban didn't help either.

As for the logging, well that needs to be reviewed as far as "practices" go.
They do have to do a better job.
We cant keep doing it this way any longer, it just causes too many bad effects.
I get the beetle issue and the rush put on to harvest the green stuff, but it has to be brought back into a
manageable harvest.
And more jobs put towards restoration after an area is logged.

NDP will get it shut down , just like that Reserve they want to put up down in the OK.

[Rob Chipman]

gcreek:

"they are still just puppets dancing on the govt. string and being told what to say and who to address it to."

Some people may not like your characterization but you're certainly on point - I've been involved in the recent advisory process regarding Improved Wildlife Management and Habitat Conservation. Guess what? Distrust of government and government accountability were prominent topics. We need to do something that makes you stop saying that the bios are puppets, and that happens by you (and not just you, as I'm sure you understand) having a different experience with the bios so that you do start trusting them and seeing a clear connection between what they know and what they say (and what government does).

The Itchas have always struck me as a perfect place for a controlled experiment - granted, lots of logging around that park, as well as fire, but what a great opportunity for testing the non-habitat measures that have been used in other areas. (Sidebar - I don't think there were always goats there, but there sure is now. Any thoughts/intel on that?)

Darksith:

"But they can't properly do their job without a budget. If they don't get real time numbers...facts..."

Bang on. That seems to come up time and again.
Me to bio: "Why not set a population objective, even if it's a wild guess and then recalibrate to see how we're doing?"
Bio to me: "We could do that, but we'd never have the funding to do any future count, so how could we ever recalibrate and learn?"
me: "Um...really? It's that bad?"
Bio: "........"

You've probably seen the same sort of thing.

"Our biggest problem is marketing." Also true. Look at the SPCA thread, and look at the SPCA's position statement - something along the lines of "We support subsistence hunting for food, but oppose recreational hunting"; they equate "hunting" with "killing", and so conclude that recreational killing is unethical because it's killing for fun, which is cruel. It's fairly sound logic if you accept their assumptions.

However, as hunters we know that it's called "hunting" and not "killing" for a reason. Hunting is much more than killing, and killing isn't always even a critical requirement of an individual hunt. We know that regulated hunting that is informed by science is sustainable and nowhere near as cruel a death as starvation from habitat loss, or death from exposure from loss of winter range, or death from disease or injury, or death from being eaten alive by predators. We could do well by marketing that viewpoint better.

Additionally, as hunters we know that hunting is an important and traditional social practice that strengthens bonds between people. Non-hunters largely don't understand that (and it's tough for them to grasp) - we need marketing there as well.

Bugle:

"But the truth has to come out, that if wolves don't get culled, then we lose the Bou.
So far, they way I see it being spun on the news is that it is "logging" that is the issue, thus the whole
discussion to close off the whole area."

The need for predator control is coming out more and more often, and it's important to recognize (and exploit) the fact that it is coming from non-hunters. Look for that, recognize it, spread it. When Steve Isdahl saves "cull wolves" a lot of people will dismiss him as a stone cold killer (even if his info is solid); when a non-hunter makes the argument it falls on more fertile ground and can be immensely helpful.

[gcreek]

gcreek:

"they are still just puppets dancing on the govt. string and being told what to say and who to address it to."

Some people may not like your characterization but you're certainly on point - I've been involved in the recent advisory process regarding Improved Wildlife Management and Habitat Conservation. Guess what? Distrust of government and government accountability were prominent topics. We need to do something that makes you stop saying that the bios are puppets, and that happens by you (and not just you, as I'm sure you understand) having a different experience with the bios so that you do start trusting them and seeing a clear connection between what they know and what they say (and what government does).

The Itchas have always struck me as a perfect place for a controlled experiment - granted, lots of logging around that park, as well as fire, but what a great opportunity for testing the non-habitat measures that have been used in other areas. (Sidebar - I don't think there were always goats there, but there sure is now. Any thoughts/intel on that?)






.

It isn't the folks on the ground that makes me suspicious, it is those above them and those above them that make the decisions for various other reasons and motives that make me question.

The goats have been there and on the increase in my 40 years here. My outfitter friend whose area they are mostly in has counted over 65 there and MOE still won't admit there is a large enough herd to take a couple of billies out per year.

There was a few sheep there 35 years ago. I knew the idiot that poached the old ram and the ewes eventually died off or were killed by predators. When MOE was asked to put in some new blood in back then they informed those interested that "The Itchas weren't sheep habitat". Really? How did the first get there then?

As I have said before, "We can all run the other guy's operation better than our own". but the management of wolves by BC's MOE for the past 30 years has sucked big time. It started with the moratorium on 1080.

[Bugle M In]

Yup, the local "non-hunting" community needs to know the problems start with the Preds like wolves.
When they get informed and get it into their heads, and realize "jobs are on the line", that they
will "start to voice for a cull" to fix a big part of the "real problem".

Then we can exploit the voice and make the snowball roll down hill to use every where else in BC with
Pred issues.

The locals need to get that in their heads.
And then "Voice it", to make it happen.

Might be the best thing to happen in BC, having this issue front and center right now.
We might lose the area for all sorts of opportunity if the NDP gets their way.
OR, we can get things to start rolling in the "right direction"!

This could be a momentous moment for us if we approach it right to the non hunting communities in rural
areas.
And show that other areas could face the same fate, like the NDP are proposing, if we don't get the
"right solution/s" across in time.

[boxhitch]

wildsight
"An historic Partnership Agreement (https://secure.wildsight.ca/sites/secure.wildsight.ca/modules/civicrm/extern/url.php?u=8444&qid=2782988) between the First Nations and the federal and provincial governments has been announced. The Agreement is a strong model for caribou recovery and should be expanded beyond the Peace region to all herds.
Stand up for BC's endangered mountain caribou and attend the BC Government's Community Meeting in Revelstoke. Let the government know that we must protect the old growth forests that mountain caribou need for survival.

PS. For speaking notes regarding mountain caribou protection, see Y2Y’s companion on the draft agreements (https://secure.wildsight.ca/sites/secure.wildsight.ca/modules/civicrm/extern/url.php?u=8446&qid=2782988)."

[boxhitch]

Revelstoke Monday
Nakusp Wednesday
Enderby Thursday

[tipper]

We can blame everything else but us seems to be the way things are now.
We ruined the whole cycle of mother nature in BC over the past 60 or so years.

[horshur]

We can blame everything else but us seems to be the way things are now.
We ruined the whole cycle of mother nature in BC over the past 60 or so years.
60 years ago poison was used to control predators....

[happyhunter]

We can blame everything else but us seems to be the way things are now.
We ruined the whole cycle of mother nature in BC over the past 60 or so years.

Mother Nature is a cruel bitch who doesn’t give a damn which species make it or not. Many species went extinct long before mans intervention. Now that we recognize that our activities have such a negative effect on things it would be grossly irresponsible to throw up our hands and say “let nature sort itself out”.

[338win mag]

Revelstoke Monday
Nakusp Wednesday
Enderby Thursday
Is there a link for time/place etc?

[Cub Driver]

https://engage.gov.bc.ca/caribou/community-meetings/

[huntingfamily]

https://engage.gov.bc.ca/caribou/community-meetings/

Thanks Cub Driver. Filled it out.
This is our opportunity to be heard!

[Rob Chipman]

gcreek:

Thanks for the info on goats. I don't know how many you need for a sustainable hunt, but there are a lot there, that's for sure. Very cool being able to see so many. I'm thinking of taking my wife back just for that.

Also cool about the sheep. I'd heard there were sheep there in the past, but I'd also heard that goats out compete sheep and were the reason for the sheep's demise. Not sure how accurate that is. Like I say, that area is an interesting proposition for some serious study for all sorts of reasons - it's a park, so fewer roads, less logging, etc. It's got island populations, so that's also interesting in terms of connectivity.

I forget where the mountain is, maybe just west of Chilko or around Brittany or something, where a local told me there was a band of sheep (maybe Cardtable Mountain?) Anyway, isolated populations and connectivity dynamics always are interesting to me. It applies to those Itcha caribou as well.

"It isn't the folks on the ground that makes me suspicious, it is those above them and those above them that make the decisions for various other reasons and motives that make me question."

Yeah, we need to figure out a way to have 2 different relationships - 1 with bios who provide good info, and another with government on a "keep 'em honest" basis. Just voting and talking with MLAs isn't enough. We need some pictures we can threaten to release or something.

Bugle:

"Yup, the local "non-hunting" community needs to know the problems start with the Preds like wolves."

I think part of the problem is that people think of Never Cry Wolf and also think that nature balances itself. They don't consider the idea that man has thrown the balance out of whack, at times favouring predators to the detriment not only of ungulates, but eventually preds themselves.

Slightly related example (I think Nog might have out this on FB recently) - as grizzly expand out of the greater Yellowstone habitat (it's at carrying capacity) and as hunting them has been squashed, government euthanization of problem bears is reaching record levels. Road to hell, meet good intentions.

[boxhitch]

CMH Heli-skiing and Summer Adventures is asking Nakusp’s village council to get involved in the debate to make sure new rules protecting the caribou don’t hurt job creation or the local economy.

Dave Butler, the Director of Sustainability for CMH, wrote to the village last week asking it to “add its voice” to the development of caribou protection policies in the area.

“I’m very concerned for tourism businesses like ours, I’m very concerned for other natural resource-based businesses (forestry, mining, etc), for public recreation and communities like Nakusp,” Butler wrote to council.
Of main concern is the way habitat will be protected under the federal-provincial agreement. Butler says CMH’s concern is that this agreement, which actually applies for the central mountain caribou herds, will be used as a template and applied to southern herds.

[T]he approaches proposed have significant potential to shut down or reduce economic activities in areas designated by the federal government as “critical caribou habitat”,” Butler writes. “…[T]he draft agreement specifically talks about tenure deferrals and segregation, reducing tourism and recreation, and ensuring “90% undisturbed habitat.”

[LBM]

[QUOTE=Rob Chipman;2086776]gcreek:

Thanks for the info on goats. I don't know how many you need for a sustainable hunt, but there are a lot there, that's for sure. Very cool being able to see so many. I'm thinking of taking my wife back just for that.

Also cool about the sheep. I'd heard there were sheep there in the past, but I'd also heard that goats out compete sheep and were the reason for the sheep's demise. Not sure how accurate that is. Like I say, that area is an interesting proposition for some serious study for all sorts of reasons - it's a park, so fewer roads, less logging, etc. It's got island populations, so that's also interesting in terms of connectivity.

I forget where the mountain is, maybe just west of Chilko or around Brittany or something, where a local told me there was a band of sheep (maybe Cardtable Mountain?) Anyway, isolated populations and connectivity dynamics always are interesting to me. It applies to those Itcha caribou as well.

"It isn't the folks on the ground that makes me suspicious, it is those above them and those above them that make the decisions for various other reasons and motives that make me question."

Yeah, we need to figure out a way to have 2 different relationships - 1 with bios who provide good info, and another with government on a "keep 'em honest" basis. Just voting and talking with MLAs isn't enough. We need some pictures we can threaten to release or something.

Bugle:

"Yup, the local "non-hunting" community needs to know the problems start with the Preds like wolves."

I think part of the problem is that people think of Never Cry Wolf and also think that nature balances itself. They don't consider the idea that man has thrown the balance out of whack, at times favouring predators to the detriment not only of ungulates, but eventually preds themselves.
Part of the problem is that many of the non-hunters don't have a clue on what really goes on out there but in saying that there is many hunters that do not have a clue either. Yes humans have thrown things out of whack.
Slightly related example (I think Nog might have out this on FB recently) - as grizzly expand out of the greater Yellowstone habitat (it's at carrying capacity) and as hunting them has been squashed, government euthanization of problem bears is reaching record levels. Road to hell, meet good intentions. Yes and will say it again this is why this has to be shown to the non hunters they think buy shutting down hunting they are saving the animals they don't see how many are put down, these pics or numbers need to be shown so much of it is kept hidden or quiet, many don't have a clue what goes on out there.

[Cub Driver]

Premier Hogan in Dawson Creek regarding southern mountain caribou

https://www.energeticcity.ca/2019/04/premier-horgan-meets-with-prrd-to-discuss-caribou-recovery/

[boxhitch]

Castanet news
"The B.C. government has added a month to its consultations on caribou conservation because of community concerns over logging, backcountry access and talks with First Nations.

This is clearly an issue that has enraged some people and has inflamed passions," said Premier John Horgan in Dawson Creek, in the heart of caribou country."

no shite Sherlock

[338win mag]

I'm going to try and make it to the one in Enderby wednesday.

[boxhitch]

Revelstoke Monday
Nakusp Wednesday
Enderby Thursdaythere were errors in previous announcements causing confusion

Wednesday is a listed Caribou engagement meeting in Nakusp
Enderby meeting on Wednesday is a Mel Arnold/Splatsin?/mof?/public/???/?? on the caribou recovery topic, the way I read things
ymmv

[happyhunter]

Meeting in Nelson today. Be advised that part of the plan will be to reduce ungulate levels to reduce wolves. We need to push for our own ungulate target numbers. This is a huge threat to us and conservation in general!

[Bugle M In]

Meeting in Nelson today. Be advised that part of the plan will be to reduce ungulate levels to reduce wolves. We need to push for our own ungulate target numbers. This is a huge threat to us and conservation in general!

Ironic isn't it.
Why not just kill the wolves....hmmm
Robbing Peter to pay Paul!!
That's Politicians!!

[LYKTOHUNT]

After the meeting inn FSJ, it just confirmed my thoughts that this has nothing to do with Caribou and everything to do with UNDRIP

This is all about reconciliation and they are using the iconic caribou as a smoke and mirrors magic act.

The West Moberly Band has no plans to log their Woodland Lic., Saulteau, who packed up and moved from Manitoba to settle on the shores on Moberly lake only hunted caribou when they were starving, it is not nor was never their main food source.

This whole thing is about taking Treaty 8 bands and giving them what they want.....land, resources and money. The dams are planning a big part in these deal as well, Loss of traditional land, burial sites, water, resources etc. are all factors that are being avoided in the caribou discussion.

Just wait until the Blueberry, Halfway, Doig, Prophet Riover and Fort Nelson bands get their "caribou" agreements. My guess is we can kiss good buy all of the eastern slope of the Rockies for any recreational activities, unless you pay up.

Cheers

SS


Nailed it, it has very little to nothing to do with Cariboo, all about FN and if you think it will only to effect Chetwynd, you are very mistaken, there is huge trickle down effect from chip supply to as simple as who the hell believes the government when the say the south part of the Cariboo region will have little impact

[happyhunter]

Ironic isn't it.
Why not just kill the wolves....hmmm
Robbing Peter to pay Paul!!
That's Politicians!!

The wolf cull is working! Up north the caribou are increasing but the problem is the cull is such bad PR they don’t/can’t keep it up.

Anyway, they will NEVER gstop wolves to sustainable levels in a natural way without a massive crash to wolf pops and first their prey.

Everyone and everything is going to suffer with this current direction

[IronNoggin]

The latest spin-factor:

“The agreements place no restrictions on hiking. None on mountain biking. None on camping. Or hunting. Or fishing. And if there are going to be any restrictions on snowmobiling in critical caribou habitat, then there will be new snowmobile areas opened up.” said Chief Willson."

https://www.wildernesscommittee.org/news/consultation-period-extended-address-misinformation-caribou-agreements

Guess Horgan's main purpose for his visit was to note they would never be held accountable for lying (much like himself).

Nog

[huntingfamily]

A big problem with this draft is that there are zero targets or goals as to when objectives have been met.
Who or what decides when, if ever, we return to how it was before.

[huntingfamily]

The other fundamental problem is the engagement process.
“Engaging is not consulting, listen for the key words folks, engaging is what they’re doing right now. They’re telling you what’s happening, that’s engaging. Consulting is actually a two-way conversation asking for local expertise.”

Direct from the Sect 11 Agreement: "Canada and British Columbia commit to taking reasonable steps to ensure that stakeholders, such as local governments, non-governmental organizations, private landowners, tenure holders, industry representatives and industry associations are INFORMED of this Agreement.”

[IronNoggin]

Premier does damage control after 'clumsy' work on caribou rescue plan

VICTORIA — While Premier John Horgan deserves credit for intervening to rescue his caribou rescue plan, the NDP government’s clumsy handling of it damaged community relations in northeastern B.C.

So says Blair Lekstrom, the special envoy recruited by Horgan after belated public consultations went off the rails earlier this month.
“I don’t think that this file has been handled very well from the beginning,” said Lekstrom, citing how provincial and federal officials consulted with First Nations for 1½ years while excluding local government and community leaders.

“I imagine they thought they were doing the right thing for 18 months,” said the former B.C. Liberal cabinet minister, now a councillor in Dawson Creek. “But to have those discussions, without input from the local communities that are directly impacted by this, was a mistake.”

“This has set the relationship back, in my mind, 20 to 40 years,” Lekstrom told host Shane Woodford on radio CHNL in Kamloops. “There’s things being said now that you wouldn’t have ever expected to hear.

“But when people are concerned about their livelihood — and the possibility that they could lose their job over something like this — and have never been consulted, a lot of things happen in their mind.”

Echoing Lekstrom’s concerns about “things being said,” were leaders of the two First Nations involved in those secrecy-laden consultations — Chiefs Roland Willson of the West Moberly First Nations and Ken Cameron of the Saulteau First Nations.
“We denounce racism in every form,” they said in a statement following the premier’s April 15 naming of Lekstrom to oversee a month-long extension on the consultations.

“That includes ‘dog whistle’ statements in social media posts that promote stereotypes or invite others to imagine that there are some concealed motives lurking behind these agreements.

“We welcome the extra time to dispel myths about the agreements,” they continued. “We also appreciate hearing Premier Horgan say that the provincial government denounces the racist comments and conspiracy theories that have been circulating.”
In a followup interview with CBC Radio, Willson told how misplaced suspicions translated into an ugly backlash against Indigenous people.

“There’s Facebook pages popping up with ‘drunk Indians, it’s them that are shooting all the caribou’; ‘All they want is a land grab,’” he told host Sarah Penton. “It’s getting out of hand. People are getting scared to go into town and go shopping.”
Horgan, for his part, expressed regret things had gotten so far out of hand. He took the blame (“my bad”) for excluding local government and community leaders for many months.

“Why I decided to bring Blair in to help me, is that this is clearly an issue that has enraged some people and inflamed passions,” he told reporters in announcing the Lekstrom appointment in Dawson Creek.

“But it wasn’t about exclusion, it was about our constitutional obligations with respect to the Indigenous peoples,” he emphasized.
The premier is right about the obligation to consult and accommodate First Nations, which is imposed by the courts and reinforced by his endorsement of the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples (UNDRIP).

But as Horgan himself admitted, the government put First Nations leaders in a vulnerable position by involving them in 18 months of closed negotiations, all the while swearing them to secrecy.
“I also want to say, with respect to Chief Cameron and Chief Willson, we had non-disclosure agreements because of some of the sensitive material in question, so they were impaired in their ability to talk to the public.”
When the caribou rescue plan for the northeast was finally released to the public late last month, Willson and Cameron underscored that it was only a draft and subject to revision.

Nor, despite widespread public speculation, did it dictate extensive closures of the back country or the loss of hundreds of forestry jobs.
But not helping allay public suspicions was a rush-job round of consultations, a mere month in total, presided over by provincial officials.

They were unable to address the burning political questions about the long delay in involving the public and whether the belated consultations were themselves a sham.

“We, as a new government, didn’t do enough work to prepare the public for this process,” admitted Horgan in his April 15 confessional.
“We had a constitutional obligation to engage with Saulteau and West Moberly and we did that. We also had a public obligation to weigh in with the community, and that is now going to happen with Blair’s leadership, and the representatives on the regional district, who we met with today.
“We’ve certainly learned a good lesson from this process,” added the premier.

If taken to heart by the New Democrats, that would be good news for Indigenous and non-Indigenous people alike.

Horgan’s endorsement of UNDRIP dates back 2½ years and has been included in the mandate letters for every one of his ministers. The government is now drafting legislation to incorporate the 46 UNDRIP principles into all provincial laws, regulations and policies.
But every time I write about the issue, I’m struck by how little the New Democrats have done publicly to explain their embrace of UNDRIP and address the implications for public policy.

Unless they do a lot more, I doubt this will be the last time the premier has to ride to the rescue of his own government on its dealings with First Nations.

https://vancouversun.com/opinion/columnists/vaughn-palmer-premier-does-damage-control-after-clumsy-work-on-caribou-rescue-plan

[338win mag]

UNDRIP....so in 2016 the federal Liberals go all in for implementing foreign policies on Canadian soil....the Provincial NDP waste no time doing the same with foreign international policies. The province is in the middle of giving everything away in the treaty process, now UNDRIP....the pile on continue's....and they wonder why people are angry.

Mr Horgan....thats not really anger, when the people of this province wake up to whats contained in the treaty process and whats in store for us because of UNDRIP...you will see anger, but I bet Horgan and Trudeau will be.... nowhere to be seen when the anger really shows itself.

I would be delighted to hear what the good news is for the people of BC.

[MattB]

UNDRIP....so in 2016 the federal Liberals go all in for implementing foreign policies on Canadian soil....the Provincial NDP waste no time doing the same with foreign international policies. The province is in the middle of giving everything away in the treaty process, now UNDRIP....the pile on continue's....and they wonder why people are angry.

Mr Horgan....thats not really anger, when the people of this province wake up to whats contained in the treaty process and whats in store for us because of UNDRIP...you will see anger, but I bet Horgan and Trudeau will be.... nowhere to be seen when the anger really shows itself.

I would be delighted to hear what the good news is for the people of BC.
Absolutely. It has suprised me that no one else has mentioned UNDRIP here. To be honest though i don't think it's going to be possible to implement. Government wants too much power and UNDRIP will take that away from them and also impact the ability of government to come to a decision on resource projects and move things forward. It will basically stop or stall any project in BC from happening. And look what the government has already done with the pipeline protestors up north...seems to go against UNDRIP and everything they're saying. Good luck NDP.

[338win mag]

Premier does damage control after 'clumsy' work on caribou rescue plan

VICTORIA — While Premier John Horgan deserves credit for intervening to rescue his caribou rescue plan, the NDP government’s clumsy handling of it damaged community relations in northeastern B.C.

So says Blair Lekstrom, the special envoy recruited by Horgan after belated public consultations went off the rails earlier this month.
“I don’t think that this file has been handled very well from the beginning,” said Lekstrom, citing how provincial and federal officials consulted with First Nations for 1½ years while excluding local government and community leaders.

“I imagine they thought they were doing the right thing for 18 months,” said the former B.C. Liberal cabinet minister, now a councillor in Dawson Creek. “But to have those discussions, without input from the local communities that are directly impacted by this, was a mistake.”

“This has set the relationship back, in my mind, 20 to 40 years,” Lekstrom told host Shane Woodford on radio CHNL in Kamloops. “There’s things being said now that you wouldn’t have ever expected to hear.

“But when people are concerned about their livelihood — and the possibility that they could lose their job over something like this — and have never been consulted, a lot of things happen in their mind.”

Echoing Lekstrom’s concerns about “things being said,” were leaders of the two First Nations involved in those secrecy-laden consultations — Chiefs Roland Willson of the West Moberly First Nations and Ken Cameron of the Saulteau First Nations.
“We denounce racism in every form,” they said in a statement following the premier’s April 15 naming of Lekstrom to oversee a month-long extension on the consultations.

“That includes ‘dog whistle’ statements in social media posts that promote stereotypes or invite others to imagine that there are some concealed motives lurking behind these agreements.

“We welcome the extra time to dispel myths about the agreements,” they continued. “We also appreciate hearing Premier Horgan say that the provincial government denounces the racist comments and conspiracy theories that have been circulating.”
In a followup interview with CBC Radio, Willson told how misplaced suspicions translated into an ugly backlash against Indigenous people.

“There’s Facebook pages popping up with ‘drunk Indians, it’s them that are shooting all the caribou’; ‘All they want is a land grab,’” he told host Sarah Penton. “It’s getting out of hand. People are getting scared to go into town and go shopping.”
Horgan, for his part, expressed regret things had gotten so far out of hand. He took the blame (“my bad”) for excluding local government and community leaders for many months.

“Why I decided to bring Blair in to help me, is that this is clearly an issue that has enraged some people and inflamed passions,” he told reporters in announcing the Lekstrom appointment in Dawson Creek.

“But it wasn’t about exclusion, it was about our constitutional obligations with respect to the Indigenous peoples,” he emphasized.
The premier is right about the obligation to consult and accommodate First Nations, which is imposed by the courts and reinforced by his endorsement of the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples (UNDRIP).

But as Horgan himself admitted, the government put First Nations leaders in a vulnerable position by involving them in 18 months of closed negotiations, all the while swearing them to secrecy.
“I also want to say, with respect to Chief Cameron and Chief Willson, we had non-disclosure agreements because of some of the sensitive material in question, so they were impaired in their ability to talk to the public.”
When the caribou rescue plan for the northeast was finally released to the public late last month, Willson and Cameron underscored that it was only a draft and subject to revision.

Nor, despite widespread public speculation, did it dictate extensive closures of the back country or the loss of hundreds of forestry jobs.
But not helping allay public suspicions was a rush-job round of consultations, a mere month in total, presided over by provincial officials.

They were unable to address the burning political questions about the long delay in involving the public and whether the belated consultations were themselves a sham.

“We, as a new government, didn’t do enough work to prepare the public for this process,” admitted Horgan in his April 15 confessional.
“We had a constitutional obligation to engage with Saulteau and West Moberly and we did that. We also had a public obligation to weigh in with the community, and that is now going to happen with Blair’s leadership, and the representatives on the regional district, who we met with today.
“We’ve certainly learned a good lesson from this process,” added the premier.

If taken to heart by the New Democrats, that would be good news for Indigenous and non-Indigenous people alike.

Horgan’s endorsement of UNDRIP dates back 2½ years and has been included in the mandate letters for every one of his ministers. The government is now drafting legislation to incorporate the 46 UNDRIP principles into all provincial laws, regulations and policies.
But every time I write about the issue, I’m struck by how little the New Democrats have done publicly to explain their embrace of UNDRIP and address the implications for public policy.

Unless they do a lot more, I doubt this will be the last time the premier has to ride to the rescue of his own government on its dealings with First Nations.

https://vancouversun.com/opinion/columnists/vaughn-palmer-premier-does-damage-control-after-clumsy-work-on-caribou-rescue-plan
I see, the "good news" will reveal itself after BC incorporates the 46 UNDRIP principles into legislation.
This is going to be the undoing of relationships in BC and the rest of Canada.

[338win mag]

Absolutely. It has suprised me that no one else has mentioned UNDRIP here. To be honest though i don't think it's going to be possible to implement. Government wants too much power and UNDRIP will take that away from them and also impact the ability of government to come to a decision on resource projects and move things forward. It will basically stop or stall any project in BC from happening. And look what the government has already done with the pipeline protestors up north...seems to go against UNDRIP and everything they're saying. Good luck NDP.
UNDRIP is an international policy, not a policy fine tuned for any one country, so I would have a look at South Africa to see how well things have turned out for them.
The racism and bitterness wont be undone with a few words spoken by any politician, no matter how stupid they are.

[303savage]

They did not indicate who the 17 people or organizations were. If they didn't list of people or organizations the #17 is just a number with
nothing behind it.

[Bugle M In]

UNDRIP is an international policy, not a policy fine tuned for any one country, so I would have a look at South Africa to see how well things have turned out for them.
The racism and bitterness wont be undone with a few words spoken by any politician, no matter how stupid they are.
Yup, you got that right.
Where as in Rwanda, after that whole scene, they have managed to become friends again.
And that was way worse.
They did it themselves.

[Cub Driver]

Latest info regarding Caribou recovery in NEBC.
https://vancouversun.com/opinion/columnists/vaughn-palmer-caribou-rescue-plan-could-need-rescuing-here-after-secret-negotiations