Government sactioned poaching

[Drache]

This happened before and the CO's wouldn't touch it. Well this morning the same guy posted it openly on his facebook page that he got another one.

https://i.imgur.com/syUj9YT.jpg

It's claimed the moose are disappearing due to over hunting. Yet there is no open season for Elk in this region. In fact there was only a single small herd in this area. How are they supposed to get into the area and maybe flourish to replace the declining moose population?

[Hadda]

This happened before and the CO's wouldn't touch it. Well this morning the same guy posted it openly on his facebook page that he got another one.

https://i.imgur.com/syUj9YT.jpg

It's claimed the moose are disappearing due to over hunting. Yet there is no open season for Elk in this region. In fact there was only a single small herd in this area. How are they supposed to get into the area and maybe flourish to replace the declining moose population?

More details would be nice and also interesting. Might be a legit reason the COS can't do anything, or maybe not.

[Drache]

More details would be nice and also interesting. Might be a legit reason the COS can't do anything, or maybe not.

Nationality is the only reason. They said because of that and because it was on private property they won't do anything about it even though they admitted it wasn't allowed.

[walks with deer]

region 5 i am guessing?

[Drache]

region 5 i am guessing?

5-13 to be precise

[moosinaround]

This happened before and the CO's wouldn't touch it. Well this morning the same guy posted it openly on his facebook page that he got another one.

https://i.imgur.com/syUj9YT.jpg

It's claimed the moose are disappearing due to over hunting. Yet there is no open season for Elk in this region. In fact there was only a single small herd in this area. How are they supposed to get into the area and maybe flourish to replace the declining moose population?
Ya this Chad fellow spanked a beauty bull at the hay stack! I was hoping they would open that Region 5 elk soon to every hunter, but looks like they are keeping it local! Not sure if this type of harvest is documented, it sure makes it hard to manage a resource when you donot know what is out there, or what is taken? With region 5 starting to look at these wildlife numbers, you would hope lessons from other regions would be used to help keep wildlife numbers in check?!

[Drache]

Ya this Chad fellow spanked a beauty bull at the hay stack! I was hoping they would open that Region 5 elk soon to every hunter, but looks like they are keeping it local! Not sure if this type of harvest is documented, it sure makes it hard to manage a resource when you donot know what is out there, or what is taken? With region 5 starting to look at these wildlife numbers, you would hope lessons from other regions would be used to help keep wildlife numbers in check?!

This was just down the road from me. I was hoping that the Elk would replace the declining moose populations for large game. So the two Elk from a few months ago and now this one doesn't leave a whole lot left. There was about 10 in the herd last I seen two years ago that were in my field.

[moosinaround]

This was just down the road from me. I was hoping that the Elk would replace the declining moose populations for large game. So the two Elk from a few months ago and now this one doesn't leave a whole lot left. There was about 10 in the herd last I seen two years ago that were in my field.
Slowly making their way south, them elk, lots of grass for them to chew on. We have been killing predators down the Batanuni/Blackwater all year, trying to help out as much as we can! They sure like that Fraser escarpment, but lots of wolves left around the River and associated farm/ranch lands! Not sure how they are gonna make it with human preds after them too! Moosin

[Darksith]

There are also people hunting elk in region 3...nothing is done about it, nor can it be. The biggest problem I have here is sustainability. If there is an arguement that it is sustainable then I can't really see a problem, would be nice to see elk grow in certain areas, but if region 6-04 can do it, anywhere should be able too

[rocksteady]

Ibtl.......

[Hadda]

Nationality is the only reason. They said because of that and because it was on private property they won't do anything about it even though they admitted it wasn't allowed.

Was it on the private land of the guy who shot it?

[Drache]

Was it on the private land of the guy who shot it?

No it was on the private land of a rancher. He got permission of the land owner to hunt Elk on his property.

[browningboy]

Hmm. Crazy, just another day of double standard...

[Spy]

No it was on the private land of a rancher. He got permission of the land owner to hunt Elk on his property.
Out of season ? Anyone report this to the RAPP line ?? Details and I will phone it in as well...

[walks with deer]

darksith... tkemlups put a moratorium on elk...

when and where they will pursue..

[walks with deer]

yup call rapp..

[jamfarm]

Nationality is the only reason. They said because of that and because it was on private property they won't do anything about it even though they admitted it wasn't allowed.

Nationality! I was born in North Vancouver, or should I say I was born on Tsleil-Waututh land, I should be able to get my status. If someone is born in Canada they become a Canadian citizen. I was born on Tsleil-Waututh land, I should be able to get my status. I'm sure i'll be corrected but the reasoning makes sense to me.

[Spy]

Nationality! I was born in North Vancouver, or should I say I was born on Tsleil-Waututh land, I should be able to get my status. If someone is born in Canada they become a Canadian citizen. I was born on Tsleil-Waututh land, I should be able to get my status. I'm sure i'll be corrected but the reasoning makes sense to me.
I think you would have a better shot at identifying as an Bow & Arrow..

[Drache]

Out of season ? Anyone report this to the RAPP line ?? Details and I will phone it in as well...

I called them the first time this happened and they were only willing to go after the single white guy who was in the group and leave the rest. I reported this again and was told the same thing, there is nothing they will do about it.

[Husky7mm]

I called them the first time this happened and they were only willing to go after the single white guy who was in the group and leave the rest. I reported this again and was told the same thing, there is nothing they will do about it.

Shameful!!

[RackStar]

I’m starting to see more elk then moose up here. This is sad to hear.
I also saw a poached cow elk carcass in the middle of May last year about 5km down the salmon fsr.. that sh!t gets me fuming.

[LBM]

Not just limited to your region. lots of stuff goes on out there that most have no clue of.

[guest]

No surprise here.
Isnt it funny that so many transplants through out the province where certain species never naturally existed are claimed by keepers of the land and their right to hunt.
Truly Sad times when it comes to sustainability. Are these types not to lead by example.......apparently Not !
Another Pathetic example of chosen few.

[Rattler]

^^^^^^....couldn’t agree more Curly Top

[puddlejumper]

Quick Facts: Historically, elk ranged across much of the grasslands and forests of the Cariboo Region from the Fraser River west to Choelquiot Lake and Anahim Lake, south to the Chilcotin River and Meldrum Creek areas, and east to Canim Lake and Mahood Lake. First Nations oral history and reports from early explorers indicate the presence of elk in the 1800s and 1900s, while archaeological evidence supports the presence of elk as far back as 500 BC. Although primarily a grazing species, elk eat a wide variety of plants, shrubs and trees. Their adaptable diet enables them to occupy a range of habitats, including forested stands, grasslands and mountainous alpine and sub-alpine areas. As in other parts of the province, elk populations in the Cariboo-Chilcotin declined from the mid-1800s through the mid-1900s. However, over the past 15 years, that population has increased to over 300, with the majority of these elk now located in the Quesnel area.

[TexasWalker]

darksith... tkemlups put a moratorium on elk...

when and where they will pursue..

That's laughable.

[HarryToolips]

Stewards of the land no more....

[Bugle M In]

Shaking my head and getting pissed off to say the least.
All you can do is share that on general media...
Let everyone know just what kind of "stewards of the land they are".
Eventually kick back might start rolling along.
Cant see the government taking charge of this....so I guess it's up to us to show everyone.
FB post it and let it roll, as much and as often as possible...before it is all too late!

[Drache]

A B.C. First Nation has partnered with the B.C. Conservation Officer Service to enforce restrictions on moose hunting.

Last fall, the ?Esdilagh First Nation declared a ban on moose hunting in its traditional territory, citing a decades-long population decline and fears that B.C.'s 2017 wildfire season drove moose numbers down even further.

The factors that have affected the population are principally "forest fires, climate change and most likely timber harvesting and habitat loss, and hunting pressure," according to Chad Stump, a ?Esdilagh band manager.

Conservation officers will now be able to enforce the community's restriction that prohibits the harvesting of cow moose for ?Esdilagh First Nation membership inside their traditional territory.

"There is going to be a penalty," said Stump, adding that it's yet to be decided what the penalties will be.


"Our people have spoken and they want us to go through with this."

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/esdilagh-first-nation-partners-with-conservation-officers-to-enforce-ban-on-moose-hunting-1.4714737

So they openly talk about stopping the hunting of moose for everyone to seem like they care about Conservation, then are willing to hunt animals that have no open season and have less numbers than the moose population. Makes complete sense.

[338win mag]

In the future (tomorrow) the problem wont be so much individual bands but rather individuals themselves, they wont be able to police that. There seems to be a tying together of reconciliation and resources, not sure what idiot thought that one up.
It looks like FN are getting more, but really its a taking away from others and as we move forward or backward there will simply be less or no opportunity. I hope the guy who shot the Elk and posted it, chokes on it.

[Jagermeister]

The real problem is with the farmer/rancher. He is most likely collecting government money for damage to haystack while acting as a wildlife control officer. The COs are remiss for not taking him to task. Your MLA should be apprised about your displeasure with the situation. That is piss poor wildlife management and needs to be addressed post haste.

[338win mag]

The real problem is with the farmer/rancher. He is most likely collecting government money for damage to haystack while acting as a wildlife control officer. The COs are remiss for not taking him to task. Your MLA should be apprised about your displeasure with the situation. That is piss poor wildlife management and needs to be addressed post haste.
This^^^^^^happens all the time.

[walks with deer]

That's laughable.


TexasWalker,

Have you discussed this with the cheif harvester for TK emlups secwepemc band??

Because I have and the band has put a moritorium on elk harvest in there region... Fine able of 10,000 on top of ministry`s pursuit. This group takes conservation very serious if your in kamloops shoot me a pm and i will gladly buy you a beer to help educate you on the process.

Original poster if you called it in did you call the wrap line or did you talk to a local Co? Have you emailed the region 5 head Co and or biologist?

I had a similar issue and the local Co office would not touch it. In a unrelated incident i was talking to the head Co from another area and the issue came up and i wanted his feedback. he took all the info i had and made the busts as it was a territory overlap the charges stuck and he called me back to say thank you. this incident made the papers.

[walks with deer]

Shane.White@gov.bc.ca 250-398-4553 See what he says email him the particulars. biologist for that area.

[Bugle M In]

TexasWalker,

Have you discussed this with the cheif harvester for TK emlups secwepemc band??

Because I have and the band has put a moritorium on elk harvest in there region... Fine able of 10,000 on top of ministry`s pursuit. This group takes conservation very serious if your in kamloops shoot me a pm and i will gladly buy you a beer to help educate you on the process.

Original poster if you called it in did you call the wrap line or did you talk to a local Co? Have you emailed the region 5 head Co and or biologist?

I had a similar issue and the local Co office would not touch it. In a unrelated incident i was talking to the head Co from another area and the issue came up and i wanted his feedback. he took all the info i had and made the busts as it was a territory overlap the charges stuck and he called me back to say thank you. this incident made the papers.

This ^^^^^^^

[Drache]

Original poster if you called it in did you call the wrap line or did you talk to a local Co? Have you emailed the region 5 head Co and or biologist?

I had a similar issue and the local Co office would not touch it. In a unrelated incident i was talking to the head Co from another area and the issue came up and i wanted his feedback. he took all the info i had and made the busts as it was a territory overlap the charges stuck and he called me back to say thank you. this incident made the papers.

First time I reported it by RAPP and the Williams Lake CO contacted me in person and was really interested right up until he found out the guy was FN. He told me there was nothing they could do about it because the "harvest" was done on private property that also happened to be in his "traditional lands".

The time I reported it directly to the Quesnel CO's because the Reserve and where this incident took place is exactly between Williams Lake and Quesnel and they too said there is nothing they could do because he was FN.

Unless the band speaks up and makes a stink the CO's don't want to get involved. But the band won't raise a stink because they guy doing this is Band Manager.

[moosinaround]

So they openly talk about stopping the hunting of moose for everyone to seem like they care about Conservation, then are willing to hunt animals that have no open season and have less numbers than the moose population. Makes complete sense.

Chad Stump is the fellow who killed that bull elk?

[Drache]

Chad Stump is the fellow who killed that bull elk?

That is correct

[Bugle M In]

Same goes for our transplant projects elsewhere!
I heard some FN were going into the Pitt River to hunt elk.
FN from other bands, not the local band that has an agreement with the government and seem to be following the rules.
Not sure what came of those "reports" I was told about.
But again, these transplants seem to be a total waste of time if one group can just go in at anytime.
On top of that, to hunt game at this time of year, in easy access areas is just sickening to me.
That is not even "fair chase" at this point, at this time of year.

And to have non FN "benefit" because they know someone sickens me a well.
It just contributes to the problem overall.

I have had people come to me and say, "hey, I have an FN buddy and I can set you up with him to join us".
(mainly for salmon, but could do some hunting with them as well)
I refuse! to be apart of that.
That's not why I hunt.
I don't just hunt for "guaranteed success".
I want to puke!

[Jordan f.]

Has anyone contacted the band? Had a respectful and neutral conversation about concerns with harvesting animals from such a small population.

Curious to see if there is members who disagree with what he is doing.

[Bugle M In]

Has anyone contacted the band? Had a respectful and neutral conversation about concerns with harvesting animals from such a small population.

Curious to see if there is members who disagree with what he is doing.

Good Point there.
Might be worth talking to the Band Council, especially the chief if he/she is willing to listen.
Couldn't hurt.

[Drache]

Good Point there.
Might be worth talking to the Band Council, especially the chief if he/she is willing to listen.
Couldn't hurt.

http://www.esdilagh.com/Governance.html

His dad is the Chief and Chad is on the Band Manager.

[Bugle M In]

http://www.esdilagh.com/Governance.html

His dad is the Chief and Chad is on the Band Manager.

well….s***!.
What else can be said???
Seems like the R5 chiefs really don't care!
Pointing fingers at everyone else!
But never taking responsibility that they probably only have themselves to blame.
But they have the media's attention to blame us.
Keeping taking photos and save them for a rainy day.
Fire it back in the media when the time is right!

[Jordan f.]

While that does lower any positive expectations I had... I would still recommend someone who's well spoken (maybe Pemby can help) write in their concerns about this from a conservation (not anti FN blah blah blah) point of view. Sometimes people get their horse blinders on and lose sight...

Not saying we should expect much. But hard to complain until someone at least tries.

[338win mag]

well….s***!.
What else can be said???
Seems like the R5 chiefs really don't care!
Pointing fingers at everyone else!
But never taking responsibility that they probably only have themselves to blame.
But they have the media's attention to blame us.
Keeping taking photos and save them for a rainy day.
Fire it back in the media when the time is right!
Right here^^^^^^^

The new management plan will fix everything when FN are partners,,,,, ohhhh forget it

[Spy]

While that does lower any positive expectations I had... I would still recommend someone who's well spoken (maybe Pemby can help) write in their concerns about this from a conservation (not anti FN blah blah blah) point of view. Sometimes people get their horse blinders on and lose sight...

Not saying we should expect much. But hard to complain until someone at least tries.
I think you might have just found a use for Pemba....

[338win mag]

While that does lower any positive expectations I had... I would still recommend someone who's well spoken (maybe Pemby can help) write in their concerns about this from a conservation (not anti FN blah blah blah) point of view. Sometimes people get their horse blinders on and lose sight...

Not saying we should expect much. But hard to complain until someone at least tries.
LOL sorry, let me know how this works out for you with the Siksika...
This is how it works, first you kill all the females...then the pops begin to spiral downward....the anti hunters get massive media attention pointing fingers at resident hunters for the downward spiral, the government steps in with regulating resident hunters.
What a surprise, the FN then are the only ones hunting.
Then you have a treaty process that ties reconciliation with resources, I almost forgot about UNDRIP.

[Bugle M In]

LOL sorry, let me know how this works out for you with the Siksika...
This is how it works, first you kill all the females...then the pops begin to spiral downward....the anti hunters get massive media attention pointing fingers at resident hunters for the downward spiral, the government steps in with regulating resident hunters.
What a surprise, the FN then are the only ones hunting.
Then you have a treaty process that ties reconciliation with resources, I almost forgot about UNDRIP.

Yup...it's sickening alright.

[Jordan f.]

I'm not saying it will work out.

But what's better? To bitch and moan on a internet forum where everyone is going to agree with you? Or take the high road, communicate productively? Maybe get a local Rod and Gun Club to be the voice.

Best case scenario...they make changes for the better.

Worst case... They do nothing, and you have proof (and most likely a response that will not look good for them) they don't care about wildlife beyond their own needs?



....both seem better then what will come from this thread. People saying things to people who already know it and agree with you.

[Drache]

Ok so I just got off with the CO's again. They left a message asking me to call them back. So I did.

They once again confirmed that because the private property of the Rancher lies on their Traditional FN lands, there is nothing they can go about the killing of the elk. But he did tell me two other things.

First, the band is in the process of writing up a contract with the Government to stop their members from hunting COW MOOSE. So this is at least a small step in the right direction.

The second thing he mention is that the CO's office is currently working on getting a Limited Entry Elk hunt started in this area. They said this would make it fair for everyone (White People) and will please the ranchers. But he said too it depends on how the Biologists write it up. If they list the Elk as a species of "Conservation Concern" then even the FN would need an LEH. Granted that haven't done that with the moose yet. So I'm not quite sure how I feel about this. If there is enough Elk to do a full LEH and still allow the FN to bang away at them dung till dusk.

[walks with deer]

Karo Stein <orakenterprises@gmail.com>




3:25 PM (0 minutes ago)http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/images/cleardot.gif


http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/images/cleardot.gif
http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/images/cleardot.gif




to Temp, reception, Cheifjoe, Shane.white, todd.Doherty.C1, cstump
http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/images/cleardot.gif












Dear Leaders of the ESDILAGH first Nation Government.


I am writing to enquiry on your groups harvest policy.


My question are.


1.Who decides that there is allowable harvest in a region that has the smallest elk population in the province(less than 200 according to most recent population survey I could find) and from a isolated herd at that.


2.How do you decide which band member will be conducting the so called harvest.


3. As a band manager and a leader of a community do you feel a march harvest of a elk is the best way to be a role model for your community.


I am not anti harvest I have lived my entire life of the bounty of British Colombia and believe sustainable harvest is the key.


The great grasslands of the Chilcotin could sustain a larger elk herd than anywhere else in the province however they seem to be harvested before given a chance,.

Concerned harvester
Karo Stein
Karibou Allan Stein


250.299. (tel:(250)%20299-3248)ERWE
orakenterprises@gmail.com
















http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/images/cleardot.gif

[Jordan f.]

Good on you.

Not saying anything will come of it. But we have to at least try.

[walks with deer]

two mlas and regional bioligist on email...will follow up...no sense writing a essay no one will read..

[Darksith]

Its good to see someone doing something! Too many debating and bitching here, not enough of us writing short concise letters stating fact and asking relevant questions about management, sustainability and working together. Good job walks with deer

[45freezer]

Well written email, please keep us posted on any response you receive. Can only imagine how frustrated some of the COs must get having their hands tied in some of these situations but it sounds like their hands may not always be bound as tightly as some of them let on...precedent can work on both sides.

[walks with deer]

Well both regional mla`s regional bioligist and both chads work and personal email on email. no response yet.. will continue to pursue nothing from alphonse either.

I prefer to be told to %^$& off rather than no reply

[Darksith]

Forget the CO's in situations like this. A band is essentially a business. They don't want bad PR, they have built themselves up as the stewards of the land. I am so glad to see Kamloops Indian Band being just that, a leader and land manager making sure that even though they are legally allowed to harvest, it might not be whats best for the population in regards to sustainability.

Write letters to the cheifs, the counsellors, and find out who is in charge of how they harvest. If they truly are stewards of the land, they will harvest animals in a way that supports that stance.

[walks with deer]

Biologist Called me and he will be providing some honest stats on the subject email.

[walks with deer]

chad stump has not replied and hes probably making another utube video of himself singing..

[Jagermeister]

Well now. Who is the rancher that invited the "hunter" onto his land?
Have you ever talked to a stump? I have when there are no large stones handy.

[LBM]

Well now. Who is the rancher that invited the "hunter" onto his land?
Have you ever talked to a stump? I have when there are no large stones handy.

Talking to the land owner and explaining the concern may be a good idea. Im sure he
will say why he doesnt want the elk there but you never no.

[Drache]

chad stump has not replied and hes probably making another utube video of himself singing..

He has removed the post about the Elk from his facebook though I see.

[Drache]

Talking to the land owner and explaining the concern may be a good idea. Im sure he
will say why he doesnt want the elk there but you never no.

Tried that. They don't want the Elk there and would be more than happy for them to be wiped out.

[Bugle M In]

Tried that. They don't want the Elk there and would be more than happy for them to be wiped out.

Reminds me of a ranch in the Kettle Valley that asked for help of the FN to remove the elk at one time.
Then again, they said the ministry never consulted them when the elk were choppered in to begin with.
And we wonder why some areas will never offer a GOS one day.

[walks with deer]

well i believe the mla's office has now asked the band what they are doing..and want a statment.it would be nice if some other questioning letters came in espeacially from voting members in the region.
i do not no this group but unsustainable harvest is typically frowned upon by all people across the board...as greed and ego is the weakness of all humans.

[Drache]

I've also contacted CBC news about this as well but they didn't seem to interested. I replied to a news article they had from the same band talking about conservation.

[rocksteady]

Get used to it folks.. FN are on a roll and have Federal and Provincial support.. coming to an area near you real soon..

Recognition and reconcilliation equals no rules .

[Seeker]

Reminds me of a ranch in the Kettle Valley that asked for help of the FN to remove the elk at one time.
Then again, they said the ministry never consulted them when the elk were choppered in to begin with.
And we wonder why some areas will never offer a GOS one day.

Kettle Valley (Christian Valley) has a general open season..... I had a cow draw in there a few years back, and talked to a lot of property owners. Pretty even mixture of either supporting killing them or trying to protect them. But I get what your saying. If people are seeking out the FN to solve nuisance wildlife problems, we have another big question mark when it comes to managing our wildlife.

[Bugle M In]

Kettle Valley (Christian Valley) has a general open season..... I had a cow draw in there a few years back, and talked to a lot of property owners. Pretty even mixture of either supporting killing them or trying to protect them. But I get what your saying. If people are seeking out the FN to solve nuisance wildlife problems, we have another big question mark when it comes to managing our wildlife.
There was a time where it was getting a little close to have them totally removed had that ranch had their way.
Used FN to try and make it happen from what I recall.
Thankfully, it worked out and we have elk there.
The more opportunity, the more we all spread out, the less we blame each other.

Atleast some FN are trying to get their members to stop taking cow moose.
At the same point, it makes me mad because it proves to me that they know why the moose are missing, yet
blame us residents.

I hope in the end, bad-stupid crap like this gets reported, and becomes public knowledge and that hopefully one day
down the road, that "good comes from it".

Sometimes it has to get bad before it gets better.
But, cant turn a blind eye or do nothing when bad happens.
Glad that someone took the time to approach not only the FN but local government.
This is how s things get changed.

[walks with deer]

quesnel,100mile,prince george,williams lake and kamloops press where also sent the info.premiere and oposition party also have the file...google chad stump he talks a lot about sustainable.

[45freezer]

Won't be holding my breath waiting for CBC to cover this...glad we have some folks with the know how to get the right ears listening though, lots like to complain but it's nice to see some action being taken even if it does lead nowhere, can't hurt to try.

[puddlejumper]

Won't be holding my breath waiting for CBC to cover this...glad we have some folks with the know how to get the right ears listening though, lots like to complain but it's nice to see some action being taken even if it does lead nowhere, can't hurt to try.

https://globalnews.ca/news/5041645/bc-interior-wildlife-killing-contests/

They are going to cover this though! Its a vicious circle we live, jump down the throats of one group and another bites you in the ass!

[Huntingtyler123]

So dumb I hate people. Why I never watch the news. If you want real news and information you have to look it up yourself and educate yourself. Sheeple.

[45freezer]

https://globalnews.ca/news/5041645/bc-interior-wildlife-killing-contests/

They are going to cover this though! Its a vicious circle we live, jump down the throats of one group and another bites you in the ass!

Of course they are...the disconnect in that comments section is unreal, at least it's open though...if by some miracle they did cover this me bets the comments would be closed.

Read an article they ran last week about that seal that got shot where they had some "doctor"...didn't mention his field of expertise so he literally could have been a chiropractor...claimed that there's no evidence that predator hunting is effective in any way. Guess every tribe in BC was just doing it to feed their egos for the last 10,000+ years, don't let fact checking get in the way of a good story though right? So 47 people signed their petition? :roll: Maybe we should start our own, pretty sure I can get that many signatures in any supermarket meat aisle once I point out the direct correlation between predator management and the cost for a lb of beef...how many people would still have been able to sign that petition if they were required to demonstrate even the most rudimentary understanding of the nuance involved beyond "animal dies = bad"