road deactivations for sensitive habitat

[walks with deer]

interesting reading the carpenter lake thread..
many people commenting on number of hunters in there and the winter range and alpine range..

not just hunter but quaders and bikers all coming up from the city.

sound like someone did a great job ripping that access point out to protect the deer in there traditional ranges..

region 8 could use a lot more roads ripped out post pine beattle.

and most of region 3 -5 as well..

sounds like region 3 bio got some help protect a very speacial area. we need more of this.

[wrenchhead]

They have been deactivating roads in reg 8 pretty steady...its alright by me.

[Frank grimes]

I support 100%.
Id even donate my time with a shovel if needed

[Cyrus]

Atvs etc will always find a way.

[338win mag]

Road de-activation....best thing ever for ungulates and hunters. I see they are pulling problem culverts that keep getting plugged causing flooding that some are blaming on global warming lol.
The best contribution to wildlife in my lifetime.

[Big Lew]

If ripping up roads is done properly, it should keep out all motorized conveyances, including atvs and bikes.
I have seen many large areas completely closed off this way. It's a preferred tool rather than close an area
to hunting all together, or of deeming an area closed to motorized vehicles which often is ignored by cheaters.

[dakoda62]

Kind of an oxymoron, "sensitive habitat" and then allow clear cut logging.

[tigrr]

I agree that the road should be ripped out as soon as the tree planters are done.

[whitlers]

I am all for it. I commented in the other thread about a deactivation that I found in Carpenter lake. It was a massive chewed up road for more than a km. Never seen anything like it before and I have seen some pretty nasty ones. Just found it odd.

[Slinky Pickle]

I too prefer road "obliteration" over "deactivation". I ditch or two won't stop quads and bikes but the kind of obliteration I've seen in a few local areas keeps everything out. I've looked at spots where you would not know that a road had ever been there. It keeps everything but the hardcore boot leather hunters out.

My personal thought is that there should be a defined and limited Total Length of Road (TLR). In a given forest region. If you want to make another 20 km of road somewhere and your region has maxed out it's TLR then you have to go somewhere within that region and make 20 km of existing road absolutely unpassable.

[Jelvis]

I'm into the obliterate too like stated above, i've seen one that was obliterated and it got me motivated, so I investigated, and yes it was abbreviated and shortened but totally messed up so no vehicle or bike cood even try to go there! I couldn't believe my eyes!

Jelly ( Obliterate ) relegate and investigate, don't hesitate, then Oh Blitt Er Ate --> will help all animals and wildlife in my not so humble oh pin yun!

[Jordan f.]

My personal thought is that there should be a defined and limited Total Length of Road (TLR). In a given forest region. If you want to make another 20 km of road somewhere and your region has maxed out it's TLR then you have to go somewhere within that region and make 20 km of existing road absolutely unpassable.

This! Great idea.

[Wild one]

This! Great idea.

In theory but there is complications once you add forestry one of BCs largest industries

Most don’t realize the reason many roads are only mildly deactivated after a block is logged is because often the road is planned to be reopened. This is because blocks are already planned for the area in a future date to stagger the harvest

This to limit environmental impact and cost

change is needed but have to find options that work big picture wise not just what hunters want. Even part of the hunting community would fight against it do to lose of access lowering the odds of this ever being approved

[limit time]

In theory but there is complications once you add forestry one of BCs largest industries

Most don’t realize the reason many roads are only mildly deactivated after a block is logged is because often the road is planned to be reopened. This is because blocks are already planned for the area in a future date to stagger the harvest

This to limit environmental impact and cost

change is needed but have to find options that work big picture wise not just what hunters want. Even part of the hunting community would fight against it do to lose of access lowering the odds of this ever being approved
I agree. I have spots that I camp with family in the non hunting season and guys in here are saying dig up the roads so I can’t ? And what about the non hunters and people who fish ? F them to eh ?

[Jelvis]

Hunters can get into hunting areas like their own back yard over their life time, And watch and observe how the area is going over the period of time.

-- Hunters know where they had the most success also over time.
Jelly Von Cooper Dooper ---> MU 3-28 is my fave --- it's my country to hunt --> for muley --

[Slinky Pickle]

In theory but there is complications once you add forestry one of BCs largest industries

Most don’t realize the reason many roads are only mildly deactivated after a block is logged is because often the road is planned to be reopened. This is because blocks are already planned for the area in a future date to stagger the harvest

This to limit environmental impact and cost

change is needed but have to find options that work big picture wise not just what hunters want. Even part of the hunting community would fight against it do to lose of access lowering the odds of this ever being approved

Agreed. They don't have to obliterate the entire road though. If they just do 500m of it and leave the remaining road behind, that will stop almost everyone from getting through there. They can recreate that 500m the next time they need to get in there. Yes it will add cost but we have to eliminate some roads soon or there won't be many critters left out there.

[eric]

Why not just make it, No motorized vehicles allowed.
Sure you will probably get the asshats who don't care about the rules, but those would be few and far between..No
Thoughts ..

[Big Lew]

Why not just make it, No motorized vehicles allowed.
Sure you will probably get the asshats who don't care about the rules, but those would be few and far between..No
Thoughts ..

You'd be shocked to know just how many 'asshats' ignore the No motorized vehicles signs.

[willyqbc]

I agree that the road should be ripped out as soon as the tree planters are done.

can't, the forest companies are responsible for the block until it is deemed "free growing"....usually around 7 years as I understand it. The forestry departments need access at least until that point to do their work.

Around here (quesnel) the only deactivations are the actual roads in the individual block, very rarely do you ever see an actual spur road deactivated as its more than likely they are going back into the area in future to log more and they don't want to rebuild the road. Certainly not the greatest situation for the critters, but we live in a province thats pretty dependant on resource industries....is what it is.

Chris

[boxhitch]

good points wil
can be a long term problem in areas where the practice has changed to smaller cut blocks.
The checker board squares get taken out over a long time so the mains stay open

L T, roads to rec areas or fishing lakes will always be open , no worries there

[limit time]

good points wil
can be a long term problem in areas where the practice has changed to smaller cut blocks.
The checker board squares get taken out over a long time so the mains stay open

L T, roads to rec areas or fishing lakes will always be open , no worries there
Im not talking “rec areas” every swinging dick can tow a 30 foot trailer to. Some like to actually camp in butt F no where .


Again.... it’s people who at this point can hike to hunt want this... you are the ones who are telling other to F off, and if you can’t hike it don’t hunt IMO. You guys are like the gun grabbers “if it saves just one life “ ...I think tearing up roads is dumb...(can you tell :()

[Dannybuoy]

good points wil
can be a long term problem in areas where the practice has changed to smaller cut blocks.
The checker board squares get taken out over a long time so the mains stay open

L T, roads to rec areas or fishing lakes will always be open , no worries there


Im not talking “rec areas” every swinging dick can tow a 30 foot trailer to. Some like to actually camp in butt F no where .


Again.... it’s people who at this point can hike to hunt want this... you are the ones who are telling other to F off, and if you can’t hike it don’t hunt IMO. You guys are like the gun grabbers “if it saves just one life “ ...I think tearing up roads is dumb...(can you tell :()
You are right on LT , and the majority of people I know and hunt with agree . This deactivating of roads has to stop ! Total waste of taxpayer dollars and has nothing to do with wildlife .

[Keta1969]

You are right on LT , and the majority of people I know and hunt with agree . This deactivating of roads has to stop ! Total waste of taxpayer dollars and has nothing to do with wildlife .

Has everything to do with wildlife. The amount of country opened up in the past few years is ridiculous. The majority of hunters i know are in favor of deactivation to give wildlife a break. It's going to be either deactivation or quad and motorized bans. Deactivation or obliteration needs no policing and is very effective.

[Islander30]

I'd rather see more wolf management than roads deactivated.

[Keta1969]

I'd rather see more wolf management than roads deactivated.

Properly deactivated roads is wolf management.

[Islander30]

Properly deactivated roads is wolf management.

I know what you are saying but I think the wolf situation in this province is beyond "properly" deactivated roads having much effect. We need more helicopters and funded trappers(who need access).....then I could see deactivating some roads might help to protect further down the road.

[blackbart]

Properly deactivated roads manage the two legged wolves that hunt all year......

[.264winmag]

Wasn't long ago the big bitch on here was about all the gates being put up on the fsr, cutting off ALL access to our hunting grounds. So we want the roads pulled back but we don't want them gated? I'm confused. I don't know one faking gate I can't WALK around...

[albravo2]

I love exploring old logging roads. I hate gates.

Not a fan of deactivation.

[Jelvis]

People love to road hunt is what I'm noticing lately -- sore knees - sore hips - and just don't enjoy walking off into the bush too far at all now a daze --

Jel - I will admit I'm starting to like the road hunting now -- my buddy drives a four by four and we go around Kammy 3 times this year with his RAM.

[HarryToolips]

Has everything to do with wildlife. The amount of country opened up in the past few years is ridiculous. The majority of hunters i know are in favor of deactivation to give wildlife a break. It's going to be either deactivation or quad and motorized bans. Deactivation or obliteration needs no policing and is very effective.
This is the truth....

[HarryToolips]

Properly deactivated roads is wolf management.
This is also correct, though we need more wolves to be actually killed....

[HarryToolips]

Properly deactivated roads manage the two legged wolves that hunt all year......
This is also the truth......

[dana]

Properly deactivated roads is wolf management.

hahaha! Funniest thing I've read on HBC in a while. Do you honestly think a wolf can't travel on anything but a road? They can walk 100's of kms in a short period of time but deactivate a road and they are done for. Hahaha!

[butthead]

hahaha! Funniest thing I've read on HBC in a while. Do you honestly think a wolf can't travel on anything but a road? They can walk 100's of kms in a short period of time but deactivate a road and they are done for. Hahaha!

funny what we believe these days eh!

[Bustercluck]

I’m not an expert, but I thought the idea of cross ditching or deactivating a road was to let the water run off so the culverts don’t get plugged up and cause a slide.

About 20 years ago I worked with some contractors to forest renewal bc to put some sections of road back to its natural state. Tore everything up and put it back to grade. I bet that cost more money than the original road.

Im in favour of more motorized vehicle hunting bans. Either no vehicles in certain areas, or you have to be away from your vehicle a certain distance or time.

[Drillbit]

hahaha! Funniest thing I've read on HBC in a while. Do you honestly think a wolf can't travel on anything but a road? They can walk 100's of kms in a short period of time but deactivate a road and they are done for. Hahaha!

No kidding! Jesus ****!!

haha, Just so you LML guys know, wolves travelled for thousands of years before roads. They use them now, as the path of least resistance, but putting up a sign, or a gate, or a ditch, or digging up the road isn't stopping a wolf from travelling and hunting.

Some/many LML guys either don't know any better, of don't give a **** about local people in the areas that they make their one trip a year.


Look at reg 5, west of the Fraser for example. Lots of bug kill, lots of roads, many dug up at the start. Lots of burn now too.

Moose is already LEH
ATV's are already banned.

If moose numbers are that bad (which they absolutely are), shut down moose hunting in that region until the numbers come back. Simple.

Digging up roads isn't helping the moose, it's doing the opposite. It's making it hard for local guys that don't get the GoldenLEH Ticket and like to hunt, so they predator hunt those areas.

Keep in mind almost all LEH hunters in these areas are from the LML and don't predator hunt there, but expect to get a moose there on their yearly hunting trip with their buddies.

[338win mag]

What would be the reason to not de-activate roads after siviculture work is done??

[Dannybuoy]

What would be the reason to not de-activate roads after siviculture work is done?? public access to the back country for those that can't afford or don't have access to a helicopter and not talking about just hunters .....

[whitlers]

No kidding! Jesus ****!!

haha, Just so you LML guys know, wolves travelled for thousands of years before roads. They use them now, as the path of least resistance, but putting up a sign, or a gate, or a ditch, or digging up the road isn't stopping a wolf from travelling and hunting.

Some/many LML guys either don't know any better, of don't give a **** about local people in the areas that they make their one trip a year.


Look at reg 5, west of the Fraser for example. Lots of bug kill, lots of roads, many dug up at the start. Lots of burn now too.

Moose is already LEH
ATV's are already banned.

If moose numbers are that bad (which they absolutely are), shut down moose hunting in that region until the numbers come back. Simple.

Digging up roads isn't helping the moose, it's doing the opposite. It's making it hard for local guys that don't get the GoldenLEH Ticket and like to hunt, so they predator hunt those areas.

Keep in mind almost all LEH hunters in these areas are from the LML and don't predator hunt there, but expect to get a moose there on their yearly hunting trip with their buddies.

Can we refrain from the LML bashing on this site. It's not getting us anywhere and frankly I'm tired of it. There are bad apples in every bunch. Lots of us live down here because this is where our families and jobs are. I for one get out as often as I can hunting regions 2, 3, 5, 7 and 8. I respect locals and do my best to make friends with the people I meet while I'm out there.

This thread is discussing deactivated roads and it lead into wolves. No one mentioned LMLs but you..

[HarryToolips]

No kidding! Jesus ****!!

haha, Just so you LML guys know, wolves travelled for thousands of years before roads. They use them now, as the path of least resistance, but putting up a sign, or a gate, or a ditch, or digging up the road isn't stopping a wolf from travelling and hunting.

Some/many LML guys either don't know any better, of don't give a **** about local people in the areas that they make their one trip a year.


Look at reg 5, west of the Fraser for example. Lots of bug kill, lots of roads, many dug up at the start. Lots of burn now too.

Moose is already LEH
ATV's are already banned.

If moose numbers are that bad (which they absolutely are), shut down moose hunting in that region until the numbers come back. Simple.

Digging up roads isn't helping the moose, it's doing the opposite. It's making it hard for local guys that don't get the GoldenLEH Ticket and like to hunt, so they predator hunt those areas.

Keep in mind almost all LEH hunters in these areas are from the LML and don't predator hunt there, but expect to get a moose there on their yearly hunting trip with their buddies.
I would think road deactivation in reg 5 would be more advantageous due to impeding the 2 legged preds that can hunt all year - hence the posters everywhere up there saying 'dont shoot the cow moose'

[Dubya]

public access to the back country for those that can't afford or don't have access to a helicopter and not talking about just hunters .....

Do you want them paved as well?? My oath.

Deactivating roads is crucial for wildlife management for obvious reasons. The main logging roads in region 5 definitely get you deep enough into the back country. Deactivating all the sides roads keeps all the lazy hunters (including myself) from getting into every area out there. Sure there is going to be some quaders getting by but there is a lot of truck hunters that won’t. I agree with what some said about logging companies obliterating roads once all work in that area is complete. I’ve only seen it done in one area out towards Nemiah Valley.

[kolofardos]

I for one hate the deactivations because I'm lazy and a bit fat in the ass.

[Dannybuoy]

As is evidenced by myself , a large number of outdoors people and other posters on this thread , it is NOT obvious ....

[walks with deer]

the issue is areas like winter grounds do not need everyone and there dog coming through pressuring the animals..yes i can hike..yes i love a good road hunt...too..
but like the carpenter lake thread when there is quads not just hunters ripping up alpine and winter grass it need to be stopped...
i am not saying rip out every road but key ones is great.

i saw a area of the okanagan that produced a great summer range fore mule deer and held a great pocket of moose have the populations drop as there is no more cover and all the pressure pushes the game into the unlogged ravines...these ravines are full of wolves...pinch point population drop.

[Big Lew]

Unfortunately, there are those, and always will be those, that don't consider environmental sensitivity
when going out and having fun on their atvs etc., nor do they have any qualms about shooting the very
last buck on the mountain. It's all about instant gratification, not about tomorrow. The argument or
justification that 'well, if I didn't shoot it, someone else would have' is wrong, short sighted, and selfish.

[Keta1969]

Increased travelling speeds on linear features and increased net daily movement when wolves use linear features suggests that linear features function to increase the instantaneous search rate. Given that the instantaneous search rate within the disc equation is comprised of distance travelled (Fryxell et al. 2007), a greater distance travelled will result in a higher search rate if the search buffer and attack success remain unchanged. All else being equal, an increase in the instantaneous search rate results in a higher kill rate, and consequently, the predation rate is expected to increase (Messier & Cr^ete 1985).This relationship has been suggested using simulations(McKenzie et al. 2012), and recent work shows wolf kill rates of moose was strongly related to wolf movement rates (Vander Vennen et al. 2016). However, the instantaneous search rate may increase without increasing kill rates if prey saturate the landscape (Holling 1959b)

Not saying deactivation and obliteration will solve the wolf problem but it is a tool that can help. This is from a study out of Alberta. Wolves use the roads just like we do and it increases their efficiency because they cover more ground just like us.

[elknut]

The BCWF has been fighting for more access to the back country for us..I believe in access..Specialized areas can be closed or motor restrictions put on but not total deactivation..There is enough deactivation done naturally by the logging companies ..Pretty soon the rest of BC will be like the friggin Kootenays ...Motor restrictions everywhere..Its ok for 20-40 year olds to pack out there game on their back but when you get older its not a very good alternative..Deactivating roads isn't going to stop wolves ..That's a wives tale..Its the intial logging that opens up the country that brings in the wolves..Lets not shoot ourselves in the foot to impede access as we are loosing lots every day ..Soon with more Indigenious settlements we will really be in trouble ...Just my two bits...Dennis

[Bugle M In]

The BCWF has been fighting for more access to the back country for us..I believe in access..Specialized areas can be closed or motor restrictions put on but not total deactivation..There is enough deactivation done naturally by the logging companies ..Pretty soon the rest of BC will be like the friggin Kootenays ...Motor restrictions everywhere..Its ok for 20-40 year olds to pack out there game on their back but when you get older its not a very good alternative..Deactivating roads isn't going to stop wolves ..That's a wives tale..Its the intial logging that opens up the country that brings in the wolves..Lets not shoot ourselves in the foot to impede access as we are loosing lots every day ..Soon with more Indigenious settlements we will really be in trouble ...Just my two bits...Dennis

Yup, I think some of the reasons we see wolves doing so well and expanding is mostly due to all the logging that has gone on. (much of it due to beating the beetle to the green stuff approach).
We are all seeing wolves expanding territory all over the province and into areas they have never been (that we remember anyways).
Think about this: How many of these areas wolves now are, are due to "high game populations"?
In my opinion, very few, and if anything, most people are complaining all over the province the game#'s are down, and dropping for some years now.
So if that is the case, why did the wolves move in??
That's not how they "naturally expand", they need high #'s to thrive.
What I think has benefitted the wolves, is that so many areas have been "leveled" for miles around, that the wolves have expanded due to "easier hunting" and "success" for themselves ie:more snow drifts due to logging.

I have no other explanation for it, as it pred #'s only go up during high prey #'s, and I don't think anyone can say that is the case.
I think "ease of catching prey" is what has allowed Preds to expand etc.

So, do I think closing off roads will help.
Not when it comes to Preds, not unless we change our logging practices.
Removing spur roads is a good idea for the 2 legged folks.
BUT, hunters like the FN wait til after season is over, and hunt the game when they are down low, so I doubt closing
roads will benefit that dilemma.

And yes, not all of us are 20 anymore, so it will hurt those folks.
The bring problem is, some ORV user have abused the use of their vehicles.
That's where things should have been corrected a long time ago.
And they still get around deactivated areas.
Strict ORV guidelines would be of bigger benefit, imo.

I think we hold too much water with "road closures"
IF IT had worked, areas like the EK would be "pact with elk"!
40 + years of road closures up there, and 0 positive to show for it.
Road closures alone, "will not make a difference"!!!!

Some are continuously looking for the "magic pill", the "1 Fix", to remedy the entire problems we see in the province.
For those of you that think that, you will be "disappointed" big time down the road.

[Dannybuoy]

The BCWF has been fighting for more access to the back country for us..I believe in access..Specialized areas can be closed or motor restrictions put on but not total deactivation..There is enough deactivation done naturally by the logging companies ..Pretty soon the rest of BC will be like the friggin Kootenays ...Motor restrictions everywhere..Its ok for 20-40 year olds to pack out there game on their back but when you get older its not a very good alternative..Deactivating roads isn't going to stop wolves ..That's a wives tale..Its the intial logging that opens up the country that brings in the wolves..Lets not shoot ourselves in the foot to impede access as we are loosing lots every day ..Soon with more Indigenious settlements we will really be in trouble ...Just my two bits...Dennis Couldn't agree more .

[limit time]

What would be the reason to not de-activate roads after siviculture work is done??

To explore “super natural BC” ! The bush doesn’t revolve around hunters.... OR do you believe we should only be allowed to explore only what the Gov says ?

[murph83]

I agree with complete and total road obliteration. Once the tree planting folks are done, rip up the road and turn it back over to nature. We need more of this in BC.

[albravo2]

To point out the obvious, wolves aren't slowed much by a ditch or a gate or even most obliterated sections. They will always move more quickly over land that has been cleared and graded than through virgin forest.

I don't have a problem with laws that limit vehicular access, they can be added and removed as necessary much more easily than obliterated roads can be restored.

[.264winmag]

I agree with complete and total road obliteration. Once the tree planting folks are done, rip up the road and turn it back over to nature. We need more of this in BC.

Grade is not cheap to build, we will be back up the roads to log again, and again, and again...

[Bustercluck]

I agree with complete and total road obliteration. Once the tree planting folks are done, rip up the road and turn it back over to nature. We need more of this in BC.

The logging companies usually re-activate the road to log again after things green up. Theres a lot of rules to logging since the old “log it, burn it, pave it” days. They’re only allowed taking small patches at a time to leave habitat for animals and keep things nice for the tourists.

[Slinky Pickle]

We definitely need to deal with the wolf issue. Roads or no roads, that has to get done.

As for those that think a sign or regulation saying "vehicle closure" will help, I have a large piece of property with "No Trespassing" signs everywhere but if I leave my huge steel gate open for my convenience, at least 1 in 10 will drive right past my gate. Signs only keep the honest people out and sadly the percentage of honest people is way lower than many of you might think. The last pair I caught was a couple of old retired guys out for a mid week quad ride. They knew better... and they REALLY know better now after our chat.

[Bustercluck]

We definitely need to deal with the wolf issue. Roads or no roads, that has to get done.

As for those that think a sign or regulation saying "vehicle closure" will help, I have a large piece of property with "No Trespassing" signs everywhere but if I leave my huge steel gate open for my convenience, at least 1 in 10 will drive right past my gate. Signs only keep the honest people out and sadly the percentage of honest people is way lower than many of you might think. The last pair I caught was a couple of old retired guys out for a mid week quad ride. They knew better... and they REALLY know better now after our chat.
Id have some fun with that one. Close the gate and lock them in. Lol
then you’d have to worry a bout property damage.

[Slinky Pickle]

Id have some fun with that one. Close the gate and lock them in. Lol
then you’d have to worry a bout property damage.

I've done that. They are usually pretty beaky until they realize that without my key they're screwed. You can almost see their face change when they finally figure that out. It's pretty funny actually.

[skibum]

I agree with complete and total road obliteration. Once the tree planting folks are done, rip up the road and turn it back over to nature. We need more of this in BC.

Was surprised when I first found a short road totally obliterated this year, side to side for about 1/2km - could hardly walk on it. Quads, no way.

Anyways it was only a short walk over a hill from another road to get into where this road used to go. :roll:

[Bugle M In]

Was surprised when I first found a short road totally obliterated this year, side to side for about 1/2km - could hardly walk on it. Quads, no way.

Anyways it was only a short walk over a hill from another road to get into where this road used to go. :roll:

Sounds like the time I packed in a belly boat with several other guys to some "out of the way" hotspot.
Hiked almost 2 hrs, only to hear the sound of a boat motor when nearing the lake.
Yup, guy used an atv to haul in a boat that was no more then 10 minutes walking from the "new road"!!!!

[tipper]

Deactivate them!
I'm glad they're doing a bunch of them north of Kamloops right now. There's no wood of any value left to log in most of the area that's getting done right now anyways.

[Bugle M In]

Deactivate them!
I'm glad they're doing a bunch of them north of Kamloops right now. There's no wood of any value left to log in most of the area that's getting done right now anyways.

Situations like north of Kamloops, even west of it etc.
Areas like that where it is near impossible to walk 5 minutes should have many of those side roads completely
obliterated beyond atv use.
At the same point, it then restricts FN (I say that cause we have an atv ban up there in 3-29/3-30, but only for residents), which then makes it fair for everyone, and more importantly, gives wildlife a break.
Leave the main FSR's alone obviously.
But other areas in the province have had major logging, but don't necessarily have the road network created like a big spider web like you see in the example given above.
All I am saying is, just because we close off the roads, even to the point of keeping ORV's out, will help some (and every little bit counts here folks), it wont necessarily "make more game"!
There is too much evidence for that to show it wont.
Meanwhile Preds have no problems getting around regardless.
Breaking up spur roads is just one small facet.
The size and # of cutblocks in a given area have also be given some discussion.
(I guess we will only see that after the beetles are all done, or the logging companies are all done or fires burn it, meaning all the green stuff that is left in the province)

Look at Scottie Cr/Loon Lake to Arrowstone to Red Lake to Hihium and even more north and east etc.
Try to tell me where 1 cutblock ends and another starts????
And yes, roads everywhere.
But then, you look at a n area where I hunt in the EK, there aren't that many "new roads"(not compared to Kamy),
and yet those old original roads have no mature growth left, just one cutblock after the next.

It's amazing how for so many years I hunted areas that looked relatively the same year in and year out.
And now for the past 15 or so, I don't even recognize some places anymore.

So yes, deactivating roads completely wont make it worse, that's for sure, but it's not the "magic pill" either.
And don't forget, keeping some roads open let us go to our fishing areas, and, we all get older, and for some, vehicle is
about the only way to get around. (and that's coming from a guy who hiked a lot and rarely road hunted)

[murph83]

while I agree that road deactivation wont stop the wolves, I think we need to cut off vehicle access to lots of areas, and force the "road hunters" to get off their a$$es and start walking. Just my opinion though, and I'm sure many would disagree with me.

[okas]

well if the roads are blocked it will just turn into a drive by smash and grab . As many hiking trails have become . As far as the logging roads them being blocked is another step as forest fire access

[REMINGTON JIM]

Just to be CLEAR ! :shock: the ATV band ( mu's 3-28 3-29 3-30 ) is ONLY if your HUNTING you can still ride a atv while sight seeing - bird watching - fishing etc JUST Not for use to HUNT or Transport game - Supplies etc to do with hunting ! and the closure date is Sept 1 - Dec 10 ! RJ

Page 43 Bottom Section of row 2 tells All !

uATV for Hunting Closed Areas: Theoperation of all ATVs to hunt wildlife,transport wildlife, transport equipmentand supplies which are intendedfor or in support of hunting, ortransport hunters to and from thelocation of wildlife is prohibited inthat portion of MU 3-17 north of Hwy99 and MUs 3-28, 3-29 and 3-30 fromSeptember 1 to December 10.

[Bugle M In]

Just to be CLEAR ! :shock: the ATV band ( mu's 3-28 3-29 3-30 ) is ONLY if your HUNTING you can still ride a atv while sight seeing - bird watching - fishing etc JUST Not for use to HUNT or Transport game - Supplies etc to do with hunting ! and the closure date is Sept 1 - Dec 10 ! RJ

Page 43 Bottom Section of row 2 tells All !



uATV for Hunting Closed Areas: Theoperation of all ATVs to hunt wildlife,transport wildlife, transport equipmentand supplies which are intendedfor or in support of hunting, ortransport hunters to and from thelocation of wildlife is prohibited inthat portion of MU 3-17 north of Hwy99 and MUs 3-28, 3-29 and 3-30 fromSeptember 1 to December 10.


yup, your right.
But, my buddies who have the atv's ( I don't) are the ones who think those areas should then be off limits to any atv, for any purpose, for the entire year!!

Same goes for other areas, like road restrictions for hunting.
Why not close it off "all year, for everyone"!
Think off all the snowmobiling that goes on after the hunting season ends, and right at the time wildlife need the most rest (not saying that they snow mobile around winter range as some areas the game is long gone).

Atleast if they "tear up the roads" big time, and it is impassible with atv's or whatever else, then atleast "no one" can get in there, atleast on 2 feet.
At least it is better then just a "deactivated puny ditch" or worse "a plastic sign" that says off limits.
Even this year in those atv fire ban mu's, you see sign of atv's all over the place.
Worse, many atv's now using those fire perimeter roads that are actually "totally off limits"!
I can see the "shed hunters" on atv fiasco already coming this spring.

Tearing up roads, rather then just a ditch sign, is definitely the way to go moving forward, and maybe along the way they can do it to some of the older ones as they go by???

[wideopenthrottle]

don't forget how many acres of roads are displacing forests from regrowing...cutting trees on a future road often helps offset a large amount of the cost in building a road..why wouldn't we want all skid trails and side roads REPLANTED!!!!!!!! deactivation is the wrong word in my opinion

[limit time]

while I agree that road deactivation wont stop the wolves, I think we need to cut off vehicle access to lots of areas, and force the "road hunters" to get off their a$$es and start walking. Just my opinion though, and I'm sure many would disagree with me.
Then everyone will cry about to many bush hunters haha !

[limit time]

Just to be CLEAR ! :shock: the ATV band ( mu's 3-28 3-29 3-30 ) is ONLY if your HUNTING you can still ride a atv while sight seeing - bird watching - fishing etc JUST Not for use to HUNT or Transport game - Supplies etc to do with hunting ! and the closure date is Sept 1 - Dec 10 ! RJ

Page 43 Bottom Section of row 2 tells All !

uATV for Hunting Closed Areas: Theoperation of all ATVs to hunt wildlife,transport wildlife, transport equipmentand supplies which are intendedfor or in support of hunting, ortransport hunters to and from thelocation of wildlife is prohibited inthat portion of MU 3-17 north of Hwy99 and MUs 3-28, 3-29 and 3-30 fromSeptember 1 to December 10.
Why did they pick these MU’s ?

[murph83]

Then everyone will cry about to many bush hunters haha !

Well, ya i guess folks will always find something to gripe about.

[Would Rather Be Fishing]

Hmmm the bit on the effect of logging roads on wolf-hunting effectiveness is very interesting (to me), thanks for sharing! Trying to locate the referenced papers (if you have them handy PM them to me, please)!

So the consensus (or at least "common thread") seems to be that vehicles that stay on the roads(!) (e.g. do not rip open the remaining vegetation) are not necessarily a problem. Neither are the "road hunters" in respect to wildlife management (you may like it or not, but it's not really making-or-breaking populations, no?). We seem to more or less agree that the problem appears to be the ATV/MTB off the logging roads.

IF that is accepted, a ban on those or even a ban on ATV/MTB off the logging road with appropriate fines should no the trick and give everyone what they want, no? Granted, a few idiots will not listen, but - assuming the majority of people are actually reasonable (I know, big assumption, but still) - that seems to be the solution that with the most bank-for-the-taxpayer-buck?

[Brez]

I'd rather see more wolf management than roads deactivated.
This is also wolf management or rather has an effect on it. The destruction of roads impedes the easy travel of wolves up and down valleys and to new ones. Deactivation does not. Just an added bonus as far as I am concerned.

[Brez]

hahaha! Funniest thing I've read on HBC in a while. Do you honestly think a wolf can't travel on anything but a road? They can walk 100's of kms in a short period of time but deactivate a road and they are done for. Hahaha!
wolves are no different than people. They may be better at it but you cannot argue that wolves and people alike can travel more quickly and easier on roads. Another thing, wolves hunt roads like people do. They can see much farther to find prey. You cannot argue that either. People will believe what they want and all the evidence in the world will not change that.

[Brez]

public access to the back country for those that can't afford or don't have access to a helicopter and not talking about just hunters .....
same access as before silviculture - WALK it. It never ceases to amaze me the sense of entitlement that some people have. If you can't afford boots,....

[dana]

wolves are no different than people. They may be better at it but you cannot argue that wolves and people alike can travel more quickly and easier on roads. Another thing, wolves hunt roads like people do. They can see much farther to find prey. You cannot argue that either. People will believe what they want and all the evidence in the world will not change that.

Last Saturday I spent about 7 hours pounding timber trying to bump up a muley. A small skiff of snow. I crisscrossed a good portion of timber with all the usual blowdown pine and you know what I saw? There was one large wolf track that was doing exactly what I was doing. I crossed that track constantly. He was pounding the timber trying to bump up a deer just like me. Imagine that. Not all hunters are lazy and the same goes for the 4 legged ones. I have been doing forestry bush work for over 25 years. Many days I am in absolute $hitholes and you know what I encounter in those $hitholes? Wolf tracks. If I can walk it, a wolf most certainly can.

[.264winmag]

This is also wolf management or rather has an effect on it. The destruction of roads impedes the easy travel of wolves up and down valleys and to new ones. Deactivation does not. Just an added bonus as far as I am concerned.

Its not the roads that are the issue. Here's some fun facts about Sweden. Sweden is half the size of BC. Sweden logs the piss out of their country, with apparently much worse forest practice codes than BC. In the 90's their government passed a law leaving the practices and reforestation up to the logging companies. Their reforestation practices are good from I gather. Sweden has around 350,000 moose with an average of 150,000 harvested annually by hunters. BC has around 170,000 moose total and an average annual harvest of 10,000.
So how can a country half the size of BC have twice the amount of moose and harvest almost as many as we have in the entire province annually? All the while with horrid Forest harvesting practices?

Sweden has a wolf population of 340.
BC has 8500 wolves.

Pull back as many roads as you like. It should be as efficient at stopping wolves from eating ungulates as pissing on a forest fire.

8500 hungry wolves and everywhere is a road when the snow freezes up.

These numbers may not be bang on, but it paints a decent picture.

[Islander30]

This is also wolf management or rather has an effect on it. The destruction of roads impedes the easy travel of wolves up and down valleys and to new ones. Deactivation does not. Just an added bonus as far as I am concerned.

Ya I get what you guys are saying about roads being deactivated helps limit wolf travel and ease of them hunting. However I think dana is more right and road deactivation as a wolf management tool is basically useless....and I think that's because this province is infested with wolves ! There needs to be obliteration of wolves not roads from a large part of this province, before we think obliterating roads is going to have any effect. That's just my opinion of course.


.

[walks with deer]

sorry wolves and unregulated harvest are a deferinte discussion than original intent..
yes the dogs need to go..unregulated harvest is a real fact of declining moose..i am just saying roads should be ripped out as needed espeacially in high pressured not just by hunter areas...

[REMINGTON JIM]

Why did they pick these MU’s ?

The F & W Dept has being gonna Do it for Years The " Fire " Helped with the decision ! It will NEVER go away either and other MU's are in for closure too ! RJ

[dana]

sorry wolves and unregulated harvest are a deferinte discussion than original intent..
yes the dogs need to go..unregulated harvest is a real fact of declining moose..i am just saying roads should be ripped out as needed espeacially in high pressured not just by hunter areas...

Hunters need to come to grips with the fact they themselves are an issue. Hunting pressure on roads is the thing that needs to be dealt with. I believe the atv bans are indeed the answer to the problem. Road closures like what was in the McLure fire were a nightmare to police with hunters tearing down closed signs as fast as they were put up. The new bans are much easier to police. Especially with manatory licencing on the atv and trail cams. The effect really works during the most crtical time of year. Right now. Roads are icy. Most guys don't want to drive their fancy trucks on ice and possibly wreck them when they start slidding backwards. That is why many hunters bought Atvs. Now the pressure is minimized because many of those hunters are now going elsewhere. Heck, many are even hunting closer to home as is evidenced by the Region 2 thread. This is much better for the wildlife. More bucks make it to maturity and therefore better breeding opportunitys.

[murph83]

Hunters need to come to grips with the fact they themselves are an issue. Hunting pressure on roads is the thing that needs to be dealt with. I believe the atv bans are indeed the answer to the problem. Road closures like what was in the McLure fire were a nightmare to police with hunters tearing down closed signs as fast as they were put up. The new bans are much easier to police. Especially with manatory licencing on the atv and trail cams. The effect really works during the most crtical time of year. Right now. Roads are icy. Most guys don't want to drive their fancy trucks on ice and possibly wreck them when they start slidding backwards. That is why many hunters bought Atvs. Now the pressure is minimized because many of those hunters are now going elsewhere. Heck, many are even hunting closer to home as is evidenced by the Region 2 thread. This is much better for the wildlife. More bucks make it to maturity and therefore better breeding opportunitys.

I agree 100%, well said

[Jelvis]

dana knows the score and Rocko digs that, keep the valley right --

Jel -- I related when dana says guys quit in November because they slide and dint their fancy four by -- My hunting partners drive 4 by's and don't want to scratch them

-- Pretty well quit driving back roads in November around here for married guys Hahahahahahaha -- Wife says to my buddy -- enuff is enuff already --

[Brez]

Its not the roads that are the issue. Here's some fun facts about Sweden. Sweden is half the size of BC. Sweden logs the piss out of their country, with apparently much worse forest practice codes than BC. In the 90's their government passed a law leaving the practices and reforestation up to the logging companies. Their reforestation practices are good from I gather. Sweden has around 350,000 moose with an average of 150,000 harvested annually by hunters. BC has around 170,000 moose total and an average annual harvest of 10,000.
So how can a country half the size of BC have twice the amount of moose and harvest almost as many as we have in the entire province annually? All the while with horrid Forest harvesting practices?

Sweden has a wolf population of 340.
BC has 8500 wolves.

Pull back as many roads as you like. It should be as efficient at stopping wolves from eating ungulates as pissing on a forest fire.

8500 hungry wolves and everywhere is a road when the snow freezes up.

These numbers may not be bang on, but it paints a decent picture.

no where did I say that the wolves don't need culling or are not a problem. What I said is that they use roads same as us for easier access to game.

[Brez]

Last Saturday I spent about 7 hours pounding timber trying to bump up a muley. A small skiff of snow. I crisscrossed a good portion of timber with all the usual blowdown pine and you know what I saw? There was one large wolf track that was doing exactly what I was doing. I crossed that track constantly. He was pounding the timber trying to bump up a deer just like me. Imagine that. Not all hunters are lazy and the same goes for the 4 legged ones. I have been doing forestry bush work for over 25 years. Many days I am in absolute $hitholes and you know what I encounter in those $hitholes? Wolf tracks. If I can walk it, a wolf most certainly can.

Your point?

[Brez]

Ya I get what you guys are saying about roads being deactivated helps limit wolf travel and ease of them hunting. However I think dana is more right and road deactivation as a wolf management tool is basically useless....and I think that's because this province is infested with wolves ! There needs to be obliteration of wolves not roads from a large part of this province, before we think obliterating roads is going to have any effect. That's just my opinion of course.


.

I completely agree!!

[Brez]

Hunters need to come to grips with the fact they themselves are an issue. Hunting pressure on roads is the thing that needs to be dealt with. I believe the atv bans are indeed the answer to the problem. Road closures like what was in the McLure fire were a nightmare to police with hunters tearing down closed signs as fast as they were put up. The new bans are much easier to police. Especially with manatory licencing on the atv and trail cams. The effect really works during the most crtical time of year. Right now. Roads are icy. Most guys don't want to drive their fancy trucks on ice and possibly wreck them when they start slidding backwards. That is why many hunters bought Atvs. Now the pressure is minimized because many of those hunters are now going elsewhere. Heck, many are even hunting closer to home as is evidenced by the Region 2 thread. This is much better for the wildlife. More bucks make it to maturity and therefore better breeding opportunitys.
I agree with you.

[Keta1969]

Hunters need to come to grips with the fact they themselves are an issue. Hunting pressure on roads is the thing that needs to be dealt with. I believe the atv bans are indeed the answer to the problem. Road closures like what was in the McLure fire were a nightmare to police with hunters tearing down closed signs as fast as they were put up. The new bans are much easier to police. Especially with manatory licencing on the atv and trail cams. The effect really works during the most crtical time of year. Right now. Roads are icy. Most guys don't want to drive their fancy trucks on ice and possibly wreck them when they start slidding backwards. That is why many hunters bought Atvs. Now the pressure is minimized because many of those hunters are now going elsewhere. Heck, many are even hunting closer to home as is evidenced by the Region 2 thread. This is much better for the wildlife. More bucks make it to maturity and therefore better breeding opportunitys.

Agree with this 100%.

[Dannybuoy]

same access as before silviculture - WALK it. It never ceases to amaze me the sense of entitlement that some people have. If you can't afford boots,....
Ahh you mean like the sense of entitlement of the elitist few that can access the backcountry .... and to be clear they are tearing up roads in the Kootenay that were there long before logging .... I know of one trapper that can't access his trapline due to road deactivation . He used an old trapline trail previously but it was destroyed along with the newer roads To me it's less about hunting but about accessing the backcountry as there is very little game left anyway .

[limit time]

same access as before silviculture - WALK it. It never ceases to amaze me the sense of entitlement that some people have. If you can't afford boots,....
Hahahahaha !!!!! Your funny !!!!
You are “selfish” eh ? The bush doesn’t revolve around you or hunters.

[Keta1969]

[QUOTE=Dannybuoy;2052001]Ahh you mean like the sense of entitlement of the elitist few that can access the backcountry .... and to be clear they are tearing up roads in the Kootenay that were there long before logging .... I know of one trapper that can't access his trapline due to road deactivation . He used an old trapline trail previously but it was destroyed along with the newer roads To me it's less about hunting but about accessing the backcountry as there is very little game left anyway .[/QUOT

Well lets kill it all then and then when you're driving the back country you'll be able to text and surf the web without worrying about missing anything or hitting a deer.

[limit time]

The F & W Dept has being gonna Do it for Years The " Fire " Helped with the decision ! It will NEVER go away either and other MU's are in for closure too ! RJ
So you can still drive a car or truck just not an “atv/orv” style machine ? What I’m getting at is, can you still drive in and set up a hunt camp with a car/truck ?

[dana]

Seems many are not all that familiar with the reasons why we deactivate roads. 'Habitat' is rarely the reason. Slope Stability and Water Control are pretty much the main reasons and both can go hand in hand. Slides and serious siltation to downstream water sources are assessed and minimized. Pulling culverts, digging tank traps, pulling bridges, and recontouring roads are done for these purposes. We do not think, oh, this will slow down hunters. That isn't in the thought process. The only forestry practice where hunters are thought about is when we leave lots of screening next to the road so hunters have a hard time seeing into a cut block. Thus giving the animals more advantage. This is particularly focused on in critical moose areas. When you see roads that are pretty much not roads anymore, what you are actually looking at is the level the road was built. Temporary in-block roads can be built at a very low standard. Particularly in the winter. Pop a few stumps, mix a little bit of dirt in with the snow and freeze er in. Many temp roads are site preped to be planted. Again, has nothing to do with hunter access. Has everything to do with how forestry is conducted.

[Dannybuoy]

Something wrong with your brain Keta1969 ... and that's not a question ...

[limit time]

[QUOTE=Dannybuoy;2052001]Ahh you mean like the sense of entitlement of the elitist few that can access the backcountry .... and to be clear they are tearing up roads in the Kootenay that were there long before logging .... I know of one trapper that can't access his trapline due to road deactivation . He used an old trapline trail previously but it was destroyed along with the newer roads To me it's less about hunting but about accessing the backcountry as there is very little game left anyway .[/QUOT

Well lets kill it all then and then when you're driving the back country you'll be able to text and surf the web without worrying about missing anything or hitting a deer.
cool when you wanna go ? Text me bro!

[Jelvis]

It's the rut boys -- holy -- we gotta danny brook going on Hahahahahaha

Jelly Belly -- at least you got energy so what the H -- hahahahaha

[j270wsm]

The valley I live in has very few roads that your allowed to drive between sept 1 - June 16 and our mule deer, elk and moose populations are extremely low!! A guy i work with spends a lot of time in these closure areas and hikes his ass off when he hunts. He was telling me how little game he seen hunting during his 3 weeks holidays. Even 10yrs ago when ungulate numbers were high, these road closure areas didn't hold any more animals than the driveable areas.

[Jelvis]

One hunter told me one day the big buck I got a muley stuffed head a 180 typ ohhh yah know what now a daze it's a lot harder to get those bucks Hahahahaha

Jello -- OK Hahahahaha -- he dint get one yet cause it's way harder now -----

[Bugle M In]

The valley I live in has very few roads that your allowed to drive between sept 1 - June 16 and our mule deer, elk and moose populations are extremely low!! A guy i work with spends a lot of time in these closure areas and hikes his ass off when he hunts. He was telling me how little game he seen hunting during his 3 weeks holidays. Even 10yrs ago when ungulate numbers were high, these road closure areas didn't hold any more animals than the driveable areas.


This^^^^
Road closures "do not grow game pops"!!!
You would think it would, but it hasn't!
The proof is right there in the EK.
That why I shake my head when some suggest more restrictions.

Yes, tearing up some spur roads is a good idea only because it allows hunters to "walk in" without the sound of a ATV to disturb the hunt, and it will reduce the amount of hunters "hitting that spot".

We should all be concerned more about what is left in regards to Winter Range Habitat.
Think about it this, what are the biggest changes we have seen over the past 50 years.
(the young guys wont be able to answer this)
Watching places like the Columbia Valley being developed, or like all around the Okanagan like Kelowna etc.
Where is the game supposed to hang out during the winter months?

Then you looked at what the Beetle has done to the province, and what we have allowed the forestry companies to go ahead and cut down everything they can ASAP.
The lack of mature growth in some areas is beyond belief, and it is no wonder we the low game #'s.
And you all wonder why the wolves have moved in? (awesome hunting grounds come winter)
The roads are just a "by product" of the real problem.

If these roads existed, but rather than in cutblocks, but just traveling thru mature growth, most hunters don't even waste their time "getting out" of the vehicle.
Most hunters are travelling these roads to get to the next cutblock.
So yes, in this case, ripping up the roads "will decrease hunter activity" for sure.
BUT, "it wont GROW GAME!"

Again, ripping up roads is a very small piece of the puzzle, and more on the "minor side" of trying to get our game pops on the up and up for the future.
But, again, like for so many years now, let's point the fingers at hunters, ourselves, and lets restrict ourselves more, and add further regulations because, hey, it's the easiest and most inexspensive way to show that "something is being done"!
But, all the evidence points to all these restrictions over the years bing an utter failure.
But hey, carry on!.

The only thing that would be good is to limit where ORV's can go.
That basically they have to "stay on the roads".
Not blazing new gtrails.
Not just because it will help protect the land from being torn up.
Because ORV users have been taking them "off the road" and "making their own trails", many ranchers have started to
"ban hunters from some hunting areas".

I know a place where it was a grazing lease, but for years the holder of the permit never bothered going after hunters.
Even though hunters should of asked for permission, I doubt many ever did.
But nothing bad ever came from it as far as disputes.
Until, the dirt bike clubs, then followed by the ORV hunters starting to burn new trails up into the hills.
This is that ranchers "grazing land" and of course he does not want to see is grass feed obliterated.
Well, now signs are posted all over, and now, "NO ONE CAN HUNT THERE"!

Again, just forcing hunters into a tighter and tighter circle, and we wonder why we trip over each other more and more!?

There are bigger problems that require solutions.
And many of the problems were not/are not hunting related.

[walks with deer]

maybe as a whole more land has to be set aside period eg winter range in paticular.

[Bugle M In]

maybe as a whole more land has to be set aside period eg winter range in paticular.

Biggest problem I think that ever happened was that back in the day, when there was a chance, no one drew up
"Designated Winter Range", that cant be used by anyone, not developers, not ranchers.
Like an ALR (which is a bit of a joke itself, but atleast something)
Now you just have rancher/vineyard owners screaming "Cull ,Cull ,Cull".
Where are the ungulates supposed to go right now??
And then when they head back up hill in the Spring, where do they have to hide from Preds???

It's too late now, it's all developed in many parts of the province and never got protected when it should of happened.
If we start now, we might be able to protect the few that are still around, but we will never grow more.
The only other thing is Pred reduction, but in the end, even if the wolves are gone, you will still see a slow decline of wildlife 100 years from now.
Not unless some real changes are made in the habitat and winter range protection for future generations.
Can anyone see expropriating the land from a golf course to return back to winter range???
Better yet, kicking out all the Vineyards that have shot up all over the place.
Tons of problems not relating to hunters as to why #'s are declining.

[limit time]

Looking at the other new thread, the Native are going to take care of it for all of us....

[Jelvis]

-------------------------------- >OHHHH Canabis -- We grow on Natives Land --

Everyone's enjoying the smoke

Jel -- Let's give peace a chance -- John Lennon and Yoko -- Mind Games -- Feels Like the first time, like the very first ty hyme -- 4 Inn Er

[walks with deer]

jelvis are your parrnts sibblings?


the very beat part about the muskwa kechika is the amount of land un developable..

ps i am a developer for a living. more restrive land must be aquired...that said roads from vancouver into winter range must be ripped out..

[walks with deer]

this isnt about hunters its about safe zones...one of my favorite things is when my parapalegic uncle rides his quad for a month and says sonny i know where they are i need some muscle.

[Brez]

Bugle M In, you absolutely nailed it. I was/is the gross mismanagement of our wildlife resource by all parties that has contributed to our present situation. Government won't tackle it because government just doesn't give a shit!