Another EK Elk Hunt Down the Tubes

[Bugle M In]

How much I would enjoy sharing pics and a success story from our recent EK Elk Hunt.
But, that's not to be.
This is by far the longest dry spell I have had now, but this year was in my opinion brutal and I am
concerned for a bleak future still to come.
I am not saying that the past few years, that I didn't have chance here or there, and even may have
screwed up on those hunts at times, but after this season, something is going to have to change.

I thought over the next little while, I would share some of my past experiences, how I succeeded, how
I felt I screwed up, and all the stuff in between.

I thought I would also share what I am seeing as far as the bad, the good and the odd, as it pertains
to the wildlife in the area, in regards to years ago, the changes over the years and the now.

All I can say is (and I don't say this lightly), but I suspect some major overhaul to the R4 elk hunting
soon, at least in some MU's.
Ans I am going to talk about all that, and my thoughts on what I see is "not working" and is going wrong, and some of the "odd" stuff that is being created due to all the changes in the area.

So, give me some time to put my thoughts together here, to collect some photos to share as well.
I will try to give some of you here "the ways I have hunted" that have created success", and what didn't,
and what I look for and where etc.
But there will be some real concerns contributed to the thread as well, and something we all have to think to "as why it is so bad" right now??!

But, one thing I will not blame, is "over hunting"!, at least not in the past 15 years around there.
Not like it was years ago, in the 70's and 80's and slowly trickling out in the late 90's/ early 2000's.

Ironically, I spoke to a local as I was packing up, also going in on mountain bike for the day.
He also understood the lack of game, especially elk, in the area.
But at one point is said, well it's due to overhunting....???
"That why the locals have nicknamed the it "Shot to Shit EK""!!!?????

Sorry, I see no evidence of that.
The road hunting is limited, the access restricted, antler size restriction and virtually no cow LEH to speak of!!, and depending on which one I just listed, have been in effect for atleast 15 years already and much longer for others

This isn't a "Hunting/Hunter" issue we are facing, IMO.
This is much bigger then that, nor is it just Preds.
We have some serious thinking to do going forward.
Really, if nothing happens soon, we may not have the opportunities to hunt elk in some of these areas
that once had several elk in every scree slope you passed!

Right now I am trying to get in contact with the GO of the area, as he and his outfit wasn't even in
operation this year, from the best I can tell.
(so, not sure if it was a personal issue that he wasn't around?).
All I know is, even in the past 3 seasons, he only took 2 bulls from mu understanding.

So, again, more to come, and more for me to share over the coming days and weeks.

[rageous]

I hear ya, oddly I’ve seen an increase in elk in my area.

[Bugle M In]

so, lets start with a scenery picture from this season (since I have a few of those from this trip this season...:-P)

https://i.imgur.com/Q3kchMY.jpg

[Kootenaykid85]

I’m gunna take a wild guess that u were up the galbraith, if that was the case then over hunting is defiantly a issue. The previous outfitter killed way to many elk. Grizzly bears eat them like sunflower seeds up there and the few that are left have adapted and live high and free

[Bugle M In]

Okay, here is 1 image, before the snow started to fall the next day.
This photo is taken appr. 30 km "beyond the vehicle hunting restriction", which, has been in place for probably 40 years now,
and probably longer.
To "protect our wildlife sanctuaries"!
To give them an area where they will not be disturbed!
Well, that is, at least by most hunters, other then on horses or possibly a few locals, who could bring up their gear in the summer with vehicle, and then at the time of the start of hunting season, mountain bike in, hunt, and then later after the season, retrieve their gear.
Rarely does that happen!, and if it has, the few times it did, it was someone who held a goat LEH.(not really for elk)
So, has it helped??
Well, it has I suppose in regards to protecting the habitat from damage due to ORV's etc, especially when you think that at the
time these closures were put into place, atv's etc, didn't exist!.
So, even though this was put in place to "preserve game", it actually had the unintended action of saving it from further human damage.
That being said, all our new "eco tourists" can drive up there, hike around up there, build huts up there, and even fly around
heli's for sight seeing trips.
Not sure about snowmobilers?, but as you can see, why not!!??, its beautiful country side.

I guess what I am saying is, "Road Closures DO NOT in themselves, GROW Game!"

One other thing, if you look at the photo (below), you can see we are way up!, there are some Scree Slopes in the area, BUT,
if you look hard enough, a ton of logging has happened up there as well.
Due to low snow levels for years, snow slides just don't happen as commonly nor frequently enough anymore in the area to create "new growth" for the elk, which they love so much.
So, you would think all this logging over the past 20 years, up in this high country (and I can assure you, its everywhere up there), has not given birth to "more game" in there.
BUT, for those of concerned about MD in the EK, here is another thing I saw.
Beyond the last MD sign we saw, just beyond where this photo was taken, low and behold, what did we see???
A WT Doe!, not a MD!.
Lets put it this way, just above where she was feeding, is a slight scree slope, and no, there is no subalpine here (like you would see with hunters of successful bighorn sheep photos, that grassy green landscape).
Above that is shear "rock face", not even habitable for a mountain goat.
So, if there is truth to WT's being more aggressive then MD in overtaking/claiming territory, then this is one example of it
happening, and why some here say MD are declining in the EK!
Now, is this WT here because they have "logged the shit" out of the area???
They were never up there that high years ago, and clearcuts are the only thing that has changed this particular landscape in years!.
That's my take on the issue.
Good point is: Probably most likely due to the large overnight dump of snow, we noticed way more MD and sign, down lower,
then we have seen in years!!!
So maybe there is a chance for them yet??, but they will have to outcompete WT to make that happen, and WT's seem to take to all these high clearcuts.

https://i.imgur.com/w33gfo6.jpg

[Bugle M In]

so, about that WT Doe?
She was just below this rock face, just so you all get the idea how "far and how high up" she was.
At this point, on this road, we are only a few km's from the end of the line.
See here, surprised the hell out of me!
I know I have said I have seen WT's in cutblocks, just below the subalpine, but its in the low valley where you do see WT's anyways, so, what a n hour hike up for them there, but nit here!

https://i.imgur.com/ttO4aOp.jpg

[Bugle M In]

Same area, so all can see what I mean, and yes that is my overweight hunting partner:p, and my dear old dad.
This was also before the snow fall, and you can see the cutblocks, whats left of the scree slopes, yet no elk to be spotted anywhere, or even replying after hours of glassing, just the frickin WT, and actually, it was beyond this part of the drive, higher up.
https://i.imgur.com/9IBb7nK.jpg

[Bugle M In]

I’m gunna take a wild guess that u were up the galbraith, if that was the case then over hunting is defiantly a issue. The previous outfitter killed way to many elk. Grizzly bears eat them like sunflower seeds up there and the few that are left have adapted and live high and free

I know, some folks are going to try and figure out where I hunt, and some may even get it right, but I hope all of you here can respect that I didn't start this thread to "guess that tune", but to rather hear/share in my concerns.
The pictures are for visual stimulation (some hate reading without pics!), but also to prove I am not bs'ing.

But I knew from the onset, I might be giving away my area to a degree, but, honestly, there isn't much to give away up there any longer.

[Bugle M In]

So another thing, all these Scree Slopes you see, and there are tons of them up there, and my photos wont do it justice,
were at one time ( I have to go back to the 60's and 70's, mostly from my x-father in law and my dad on this), full of elk
in each slope.
From 5 to 20+ in each one.
One time, just before the Road Closures came into effect, my dad counted 40 + cows, all in single file, crossing a trail thru a scree slope.
For some reason, he never saw a bull with them, although he knew better then to think there wasn't one around.
Possible that right at dark, maybe the last few cows came out, and as we all know, the big bull comes last.
If you didn't, know you know.
That's all for now, as I got stuff the wife wants done (back later, if you care)
https://i.imgur.com/cYQQizF.jpg

[Bugle M In]

So, I just got off the phone with the GO in the area.
Yup, he is not happy with the current situation as well.
And yes, has had several years of putting up "blanks" in the elk department.
And, also agrees, somewhere after 2008, things went from so-so (could have been better by a long shot) to crap!
I know over the years, talking to him, he has changed his tune as to "the issues".
At 1st, it was, not enough snowfall to create slides, thus new "feed" for the elk.
But now he begs anyone, due to all that logging up there, to tell him that there "is no feed"!....hmmm?
Definetly a change in tune on his part.
Then, he blamed Preds, like wolf.
Fact is, wolf have been around for as long as I can remember, and my dad thinks he recall seeing the 1st signs of them in the late 70's.
Now Cougar and GBear sightings and sign have been way up over the years, and the wolves have been doing their loop a
little more often over the past 10 years.
So yes, I was getting concerned.
Lets face it, both dog and kitty only eat meat!, so maybe that is the main issue...but wait, maybe not.
This time around, we saw 0 wolf sign, we saw 0 Cougar sign, saw 0 Gbear, saw 0 coyote sign, and only I BBear sign.
So, either they ran out of food, and have moved on?, or maybe #'s for them are starting to drop, in there anyways.
So, the GO now makes ends meet he says, by offering Eco Tourismn in the Spring (Cant blame him!).
If it wasn't for his goat hunt, and the odd client wanting to take a crack at Bighorn (even though he feels those #'s are down),
he wouldn't be in business.
So, I asked him his take on this situation, and he is confused as well.
Now for the part that might get Jelly riled up (but that's not my intention), is he is hearing from many "local sources" that many of these elk are being taken by FN and their white friends, in late December as elk are wintering down low.
I know of another member here who not too long ago, was really concerned about what he and some friends were seeing
around Findlay.
Whole groups of 15 to 20 elk being cut down.
To add to that, the CO that I know, spoke to me about those rumors, and that it was possible that there was truth in it, as
some of local band chiefs, wanted to have members "curb" that issue and stop.
But, it only takes a few bad apples to not listen, and just go ahead anyways.
Like I said, this isn't a "1 big thing" issue or fix, but most likely a bunch of issues happening.

On a side note, he agreed about WT, and that he has seen them in areas they had no business being, and also figures it's the
logging that is allowing them to migrate higher and further back then ever before, and into traditional MD country.

[.264winmag]

Beauty country, sad to hear that the game #ers are down. WT definitely are an adaptable species but imo not likely much of a factor. I see them mingling with mulies often, mulies doing fine in these spots. Seen them bedded beside elk where elk #'s seem to be the same. Seen them in spitting distance of moose and the moose are still there. You get my picture, that and wt are my favourite rat dog deer to hunt and eat;)

FN is an issue anywhere there's easy winter pickin...

Logging, can do wonders to help game pops food sources. Issues can arise by taking wintering grounds away obviously. But there again that's how I make my livin so I am fairly prejudice there HA.

Not the only spot I've visited that looked as prime for elk/mulie habitat and not seen a hair. Flathead has areas just like it, old sign but nothin new. Bunch of other region 4 spots also, but these were never know for high elk pops ever and the reasoning was too heavy of snow fall in winter. Most beautiful slide chutes you could find for elk/mulie habitat though?

[Bugle M In]

Beauty country, sad to hear that the game #ers are down. WT definitely are an adaptable species but imo not likely much of a factor. I see them mingling with mulies often, mulies doing fine in these spots. Seen them bedded beside elk where elk #'s seem to be the same. Seen them in spitting distance of moose and the moose are still there. You get my picture, that and wt are my favourite rat dog deer to hunt and eat;)

FN is an issue anywhere there's easy winter pickin...

Logging, can do wonders to help game pops food sources. Issues can arise by taking wintering grounds away obviously. But there again that's how I make my livin so I am fairly prejudice there HA.

Not the only spot I've visited that looked as prime for elk/mulie habitat and not seen a hair. Flathead has areas just like it, old sign but nothin new. Bunch of other region 4 spots also, but these were never know for high elk pops ever and the reasoning was too heavy of snow fall in winter. Most beautiful slide chutes you could find for elk/mulie habitat though?

As far as WT causing elk issues, that was not my thought at all.
I brought it up for those who are concerned about MD #'s in the EK, as it has been pointed out WT's will/could potentially
push out the MD.
I bring it up into this thread, as I have seen some odd and somewhat stupid reason for "more restrictions" to "prop up" the MD
#'s.
I am just saying that there are some things I see now that was rare years ago.
I understand your living is logging, and I am not saying that logging is the issue either for decrease elk #'s either.
In one way, due to the lack of snow, thus slides, cut blocks should have acted as the "next best thing".
But, there were more elk years ago, without the logging, and I do believe one thing for sure, if that logging wasn't there, I doubt that WT would have been.
As for the Scree Slopes, no, these aren't the best photos I have (I will get there, but remember, I was trying to hunt).
Elk did exist in decent #'s here, it may not have been like some areas like Cranbrook etc, but this area did hold decent enough elk, and some Crankers.
Like I said, I will add stories of hunts as well, and what has worked.
In the end, this isn't just a thread on "WHERE ARE THE ELK".
But, I will ask all of you to decide if it is a Pred issue, that so many of us jump on these days.
Or is it a Habitat issue??? (even with all the logging!), or is it just not the "right kind of habitat, or, happening in the wrong areas, meaning bedding areas rather then feeding areas???
Also, these areas so far are most definitely summer and early fall range.
Where I hunt is mainly the "transition zone" between summer and winter range, which was generally smack dab in the middle
of the Rutting Time and Migration.
Like I said, I am not talking about hunting an area that never had elk, and I am just wasting my time, it did have elk, and should have elk, but it doesn't, or very few now.
The cutblocks, the feed, and this is just one small area, this goes for miles like this.
https://i.imgur.com/8NALrrY.jpg

[rocksteady]

A huge part of the lack of game has been mismanagement.

3 years of a 10 day antlerless elk season plus 5 years of a 21 day season with a limit of 2 antlerless wt HAS impacted the populations..

[Bugle M In]

This photo is the best I can do for scree slopes in their somewhat natural condition, but with a few cutblocks for good measure.
Should be decent feed, no matter what your choice.
Oh, and yeas, there was a fire some time back , plus a new one, but I aint holding my breath.
Mostly because the old one didn't make a difference, and the new one is just not a mountain the game really liked to call home anyways.
Had it burnt directly across from it on the other side of the river, well then, maybe something to stay hopeful for, but then again, there's always next summer for a chance of fires!
https://i.imgur.com/nKCBVsv.jpg

[rocksteady]

With the elk...

10 day antlerless..

The big grey cow runs the herd (not the bull like so many state)..
She gets smoked.. rest of the herd does not know they are supposed to migrate uphill in the spring.. so they hang low and cause issues..

[rocksteady]

If they hang low there are less elk up high (like the past 3 seasons)...

[Liveforthehunt]

It is a damn mystery and very interesting read thank you for sharing ... in saying that I found alot of spots low and high where I was hunting with a pretty healthy population of elk . Far too many friends and family killed 6 points or larger this year 8 now just close friends and saw many more walk . Yes vegetation changes and things start to grow up I think the animals do adapt a little and move around. I found spots this year that had very little elk sign to nothing. And went one mountain range over to find alot more game that usually had very little In the past 20 years. With your whitetail comment your definitely onto something. My father and I were way up the mountain last year in the same area and ended up taking a whitey buck I'm a very odd mountain range. I am not overly concerned from the elk this year sightings and sign in alot of areas trampled where not another human had been the whole time we were there. But animals closer to home where I love I am seeing a pop decline for sure moose deer etc. Even less wolf sign . When you find out the core problem or if it Is all of the above I would like to know and do my best to help the situation of bringing things back with hopefully alot of fellow hbcers doing the same

[.264winmag]

With the elk...

10 day antlerless..

The big grey cow runs the herd (not the bull like so many state)..
She gets smoked.. rest of the herd does not know they are supposed to migrate uphill in the spring.. so they hang low and cause issues..

Not the first time I've heard this about other areas, makes perfect sense...

[Rattler]

Is it possible the wolves have pushed the elk out of this valley? Are neighboring valleys experiencing the same lack of elk? I agree there are numerous issues causing the decline, but here in the WK IMO the wolves are the number one reason for reduced ungulates.

[j270wsm]

We've seen very similar issues in the elk valley. Areas that are road closures from sept 1 - June 16 but don't hold elk, Valleys that have zero vehicle acces that don't hold elk. Friends spending countless days/kilometres hiking or riding horses and not seeing elk.

Cant remember exactly what yr the 6pt restriction came into effect but a few yrs after we started seeing more and more elk. Keep in mind that we didn't have any cow/calf elk draws. 2001-2010 was the overall elk highest numbers that I can remember. 2011-2014 I started noticing less elk in slides that they always are in. 2014-present, less and less elk to the point that I didn't buy a tag this yr which ends my 10+ yr streak of filling my elk tag.

Contributing factors that I've seen.

high grizzly numbers

2000 or 2001? Ndp put the bear moratorium in place for 4yrs ( idiots ). Low number of griz tags available, seasons being canceled due to high incidental kills( self defence, vehicles ) and hunters filling all the tags allowed a few yrs in a row.

High wolf numbers......common sense here......lots or prey means lots of wolves and People not wanting to admit the population was going up.

High cow/ calf tags. When the moe started giving out tags for the east kootenays, 4-23 in specific, it was around 50 tags and a few yrs later it jumped to 300 tags split between 2 short season and this is where it stayed until 2yrs ago when it was cut back to 30tags.

how many elk can be removed from a herd every yr before they can't sustain their numbers??

My opinion....due to high predator numbers and high cow/calf harvest the population has come down to the point the elk dont need to go into the back country to find food.

[Bugle M In]

With the elk...

10 day antlerless..

The big grey cow runs the herd (not the bull like so many state)..
She gets smoked.. rest of the herd does not know they are supposed to migrate uphill in the spring.. so they hang low and cause issues..


If they hang low there are less elk up high (like the past 3 seasons)...

Yup, really good points there.
The group will generally always follow the "lead cow".
Saw one bull taken one year because the lead cow was actually a "park elk" with ear tags and collars etc )with 6-8 other
park elk that were released in the vicinity.
Well, lets just say, park elk don't have issues with humans, and that poor old 6pt didn't have a chance opening day!
Come to think about it, I believe those collared elk didn't last long, between the bow season and cow leh.
(by the 3rd season, all were gone, honestly, who came up with that idea for a study??, you would think they would have collared non park elk, but I suspect the study was to see why the elk have left the park in the 1st place!)

For you newbs who wonder what the hell a lead cow is, she is the one that has her eyes and ears on you, while the rest of the
gang may have their heads down feeding, oblivious to what is going on at times, and she probably already had keyed into your
presence long before you even saw any of the elk!

[Bugle M In]

Is it possible the wolves have pushed the elk out of this valley? Are neighboring valleys experiencing the same lack of elk? I agree there are numerous issues causing the decline, but here in the WK IMO the wolves are the number one reason for reduced ungulates.

I think j270wsm is giving a good answer here, and basically seeing the same thing.
I think it was 1996 that they put in the 6 pt (if not, it was 98).
And yes, for a time, things looked like they were improving.
More cows, seeing bulls with a harem here and there, but for me, the drop off happened a year or so sooner, but basically just
as described, that there was a noticeable change.
As for preds, yup, I was spotting way more GBear ( and not just prints, but some pretty big boars to boot!)
And til last season, was seeing more Cats, and even had a couple of "close encounters" with them while cow calling.
Wolves, they have been around for as long as I hunted, which really took off in 1985, but, we only ever saw a few tracks along
the river beds, and always the same 3 or 4 sets together, and one of them had a paw print the size of my hand.
(I believe the person who took it, said it would have scored 2nd in BC, if it was submitted).
The high point for me, was in 2000, when 18 came rolling down the river single file (and yes, I am kicking myself for not laying into them, but hey, I owned huskies at the time, so it wasn't that simple for me).
Since then, my dad saw 4 under a tree, no more then 15 yards from him, seeking shelter from the rain (again, he chose to
do nothing)
IT was maybe 4 seasons ago, when we were not only seeing prints etc, but starting to see lots of sign of their scat all over.
But that seemed to be the high point, and since then, less and less sign of them, till this season, when I saw 0 sign of them.

One last thing, on these wolves.
They kind of have a built in protection system!
Meaning, very few hunters these days go very far beyond the road closure, and even less into those high country areas I
have posted pics of in this thread.
BUT, also, they have a Park to wander in and out of, by our border with Alberta too!!!
This is one thing that will always make this pack hard to "Cull".
My Dad cant recall what year it was when he first seen sign of them, but it was somewhere in the late 70's to his recollection.
And, talking to another member thru pm's, It appears that these dogs do a "big loop" in a way, atleast now, so they hit many
of the different "big valley's" know for some good elk hunting back in "the days"

[Bugle M In]

We've seen very similar issues in the elk valley. Areas that are road closures from sept 1 - June 16 but don't hold elk, Valleys that have zero vehicle acces that don't hold elk. Friends spending countless days/kilometres hiking or riding horses and not seeing elk.

Cant remember exactly what yr the 6pt restriction came into effect but a few yrs after we started seeing more and more elk. Keep in mind that we didn't have any cow/calf elk draws. 2001-2010 was the overall elk highest numbers that I can remember. 2011-2014 I started noticing less elk in slides that they always are in. 2014-present, less and less elk to the point that I didn't buy a tag this yr which ends my 10+ yr streak of filling my elk tag.

Contributing factors that I've seen.

high grizzly numbers

2000 or 2001? Ndp put the bear moratorium in place for 4yrs ( idiots ). Low number of griz tags available, seasons being canceled due to high incidental kills( self defence, vehicles ) and hunters filling all the tags allowed a few yrs in a row.

High wolf numbers......common sense here......lots or prey means lots of wolves and People not wanting to admit the population was going up.

High cow/ calf tags. When the moe started giving out tags for the east kootenays, 4-23 in specific, it was around 50 tags and a few yrs later it jumped to 300 tags split between 2 short season and this is where it stayed until 2yrs ago when it was cut back to 30tags.

how many elk can be removed from a herd every yr before they can't sustain their numbers??

My opinion....due to high predator numbers and high cow/calf harvest the population has come down to the point the elk dont need to go into the back country to find food.

I know there was recently some debate over the collaring of MD Fawns etc, and the implications of sedating the Doe's etc.
I can understand that concern, but, I don't see any other choice left.
I really think, and I am hoping, that someone is finding some funding to put some collars on a good many different valleys of elk herds, real soon.
And not just seeing about the cows etc, but looking into somehow collaring the calves as well.
I don't see any other way to determine what is going on.
Are they not having calves, to the degree they should be, thus the slow growth in #'s in some valleys.
Are the calves just not surviving to adulthood due to Preds??
Or, are they making to adulthood, and it is something else. or, all the above.

I know, too much money being spent on studies, and not enough on action (I get it!)
But, I think I have shown that feed may not necessarily be the issue, and mother nature is starting to correct it with fires, albeit, they are still trying to "suppress them", but good luck with that!

So how to you "put money into action"??, when no one really knows what is happening the "young and upcoming stock"??
if they even are coming up at all.

And if that's the case, is that an issue with just chasing the main herd bulls (6pts), compared to the 3 pt or better.

Truth is:

Until we know how many calves are dropping in the spring per cow, and until we collar these elk, both cows and calves, and
see what is happening, we really are all just guessing in the dark, imo.

[Bugle M In]

It is a damn mystery and very interesting read thank you for sharing ... in saying that I found alot of spots low and high where I was hunting with a pretty healthy population of elk . Far too many friends and family killed 6 points or larger this year 8 now just close friends and saw many more walk . Yes vegetation changes and things start to grow up I think the animals do adapt a little and move around. I found spots this year that had very little elk sign to nothing. And went one mountain range over to find alot more game that usually had very little In the past 20 years. With your whitetail comment your definitely onto something. My father and I were way up the mountain last year in the same area and ended up taking a whitey buck I'm a very odd mountain range. I am not overly concerned from the elk this year sightings and sign in alot of areas trampled where not another human had been the whole time we were there. But animals closer to home where I love I am seeing a pop decline for sure moose deer etc. Even less wolf sign . When you find out the core problem or if it Is all of the above I would like to know and do my best to help the situation of bringing things back with hopefully alot of fellow hbcers doing the same

I do realize, living in the LM, I don't have the "flexibility" that many of you have in the EK. to go here, and if not, go there.
It is nice to know folks are finding success.
Even myself, I have had a few "blown opportunities" that could have come out differently, for sure, in the past few years.
But, this has been a steady stream of watching devoted elk hunters in the area, turning their back from the area.
All saying the same thing.
Starting with a 20+ year GO in the area, stating "no elk in the back country", but not blaming wolves at that time.
Then another GO took over, and had 1 good season, because they didn't hunt high up, but by me.
But they too, after a couple of seasons said it is "dead up here"
And the current GO, well, he aint happy either.
I know areas have highs and lows.
How many of you out there, have hunted an area with success for years, then given up on it for several years, cause it got "slow", to only come back to it down the road, and all is fantastic again.!!??

[Bugle M In]

So, back to some of the hunting.
Late Oct 1st, but into Oct 2nd saw us with somewhat of an unexpected surprise, snow.
So, that kind of put a damper on trying to use the mountain bikes for a few days this season.
https://i.imgur.com/PSYRj9J.jpg

[Bugle M In]

And here is a peculiar shape to the mountain which I thought my interest some.
A close up and a wide angle of the same mountain.
https://i.imgur.com/OHW2Uy6.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/p2yDT4M.jpg

[Kootenay338]

I have lived in the EK my whole life and am relatively new at hunting with 12 years in. When I first got into hunting it was great, we were getting action every time we went out. We may not kill a bull but the action was great and you would go home with a smile on your face. Then they introduced the open season cow calf for youth and senior as well as a hundred cow draws. When this was going on, every time you were in the bush it was none stop gun shots. Add that to the extreme loss of prime habitat caused by poor logging practices being done by private logging on a vast amount of private land and you have the situation we are in today. Lucky to even see Elk let alone get into some serious action calling them in. Just my 2 cents from what I am personally seeing

[338win mag]

Nice pics bugle, sorry to hear about no luck this year for you and your group.
I think you dont see Wolves, grizzly, cougar sign of any extent is because there simply isn't the game in the area for them to be interested in your area at this time. I have noticed a lack of wolf sign after they have diminished the game in the area and simply seem to disappear, or large amounts of them.

I would suggest overhunting has a larger role than anyone really knows or want to acknowledge, similiar to Moose, they are easy to pick off at times of the year, and easy to pop off 10-15 at a time. It happens on crown land and private land, nobody knows how many are hunted in this way, it happens in other provinces too, I have never seen 15 Elk in a pile but know guys who have.

Sadly, what is the point of game management when this happens? curtailing access will help. I have seen where Mule deer numbers have tanked, come back to surprising numbers after access has been curtailed, it helps, alot.

[J_T]

I might offer this up.... First, it seems often when hunters of the EK speak of concerns in the local region, hunters from other parts of the province seem to speak that, the observations presented by EK hunters, are false, that "things" are fine. "Our group limits out every year, things must be fine". (Like going on an elk hunt and taking 6 does is a good thing) Look back to old threads on this site. EK hunters expressed concern about wolves, about whitetail populations, about elk populations, about predators in general. Few hunters from around the Province believed, or respected the comments coming out of the EK. I'd suggest most real hunters in the EK, are more connected to the reality than hunters who visit here. Why not start with listening to them and giving them respect.

I believe, the link between front country populations and back country migratory populations is directly linked. Without high numbers in the front country, there is no need for back country elk. Why would an elk want to do that hike when everything they want and need is in the low lands? In the 90's there were false numbers of elk in the trench. It was an estimate of 20,000, and going forward, the number showed a trend, stating there were 25,000 elk. We knew the population was increasing, but there were no hard numbers on that population. Until this most recent airborne survey (6,000) the closest we have come to actual numbers, was 14,000 in the trench a few years ago. And, under pressure from the ranching community, the decision was made to bring that population down to 5,000. That objective (based on the recent count), was successful.

Under the present Government, what we lack, are wildlife management plans with measurable objectives. We lack a plan that has forest management, focused on wildlife. We lack an idea of land use, access. We lack support for increased 'huntable' populations. We lack appropriate decisions on Grizzly bears, on Caribou and on Indigenous peoples wildlife objectives.

We talk about balanced eco-systems. The problem talking about balanced ecosystems though is what is a balanced ecosystem? In a low density equilibrium, the prey base is at very low densities. It cannot increase because they are suppressed by predators; predators are also at low densities and cannot increase because they are limited by the prey base. As Bob Hayes said in his book “Wolves of the Yukon”, once in a low density equilibrium there is little if any prey available for hunter harvest. Is this a balanced ecosystem? If so is that what we are aiming for. Maybe hunters and Gov wildlife biologists see the objectives differently.

Wildlife management based on balance, trends and percentages is misleading. If a guy has 20 elk in his back 5 acres. With the right number of bulls, cows and calves, we could say that the elk population is balanced and sustainable. But there is no huntable population. And that is a missing objective.

We need increased resources to write wildlife management plans. We need to carry out cumulative impact assessments, evaluate logging practices, post burn management, vehicle access, climate change, when, where and how we hunt. We need to have a statement that we want, and will have, an increase in wildlife populations. Not just sustainable populations. We want more animals. We need to think of hunting as 'management hunting'. In support of a wildlife population objective.

[masoncade1992]

I’m gunna take a wild guess that u were up the galbraith, if that was the case then over hunting is defiantly a issue. The previous outfitter killed way to many elk. Grizzly bears eat them like sunflower seeds up there and the few that are left have adapted and live high and free

No offence, but kind of a dick move to spell out someone's possible area on an open forum. I think a PM would have been much more appreciated by the OP.

[masoncade1992]

UP in 7b we are seeing the exact same thing slowly unfold. Years ago when everything was 6pt and non antlerless, you could easily see hundreds of elk in the farmers fields during the day. Then when the opened the cows with 3 pt bulls, it dwindled quick. Now you would be lucky to see a few elk at last light. The antlerless draws and GOS need to end. I would actually venture to say that was the #1 issue with the EK as well. Opening Cows, decimates an elk population quick. I can understand letting a few go LEH to the young hunters and only to assist on the troublesome elk, but how they do it now is complete B.S.

[Bugle M In]

No offence, but kind of a dick move to spell out someone's possible area on an open forum. I think a PM would have been much more appreciated by the OP.

It's okay,
I leave myself "open" to folks guessing where I hunt, so that's on me, as I am choosing to show my concerns.
But yes, if you have a question, pm is a better way to get an answer.

[Rackmastr]

No offence, but kind of a dick move to spell out someone's possible area on an open forum. I think a PM would have been much more appreciated by the OP.

"No offence but kinda a dick move" hahahhaa. But no offence right???

Im sure no one is super excited to go check out a spot with no elk haha.

[Bugle M In]

I have lived in the EK my whole life and am relatively new at hunting with 12 years in. When I first got into hunting it was great, we were getting action every time we went out. We may not kill a bull but the action was great and you would go home with a smile on your face. Then they introduced the open season cow calf for youth and senior as well as a hundred cow draws. When this was going on, every time you were in the bush it was none stop gun shots. Add that to the extreme loss of prime habitat caused by poor logging practices being done by private logging on a vast amount of private land and you have the situation we are in today. Lucky to even see Elk let alone get into some serious action calling them in. Just my 2 cents from what I am personally seeing

Now, theres a another good point.
Zone X hunts have done us in, imo.
I am not going to blame anyone in particular on this, as I can understand ranchers concerns etc, BUT, I think WE ALL need to
accept that many of these "properties where Zone X Fell into" were/are/should be Winter Range!
Lets face it, the true "indigenous" are the Wildlife, like Elk in the EK!
(Warning to all those listening to those Vineyards in the Okanagan complaining and want a MD Cull, DONT LET IT HAPPEN!)

That being said, Predators such as wolves, probably have to some major degree caused Wildlife like Elk to Flee down to lower
Altitudes, and to stay there, as wolves don't like getting to close to humans (but that's changing as well, as the have no choice
but to pursue game down there, or starve)
Thus, ranchers complained more, thus zone x, and bye bye cow elk etc.

The thing that makes me so mad, when I think about this now, (and there was a member here,6166, who is no longer with us), said the same thing, the "big mistake" in the 90's and earlier, was all those damn cow leh!, and I agree fully with that.
IT was absolutely ridicoulos!, and I remember there were something like 400 or 500 permits in many of the MU's of R4 to
obtain, year after year.

The whole reason for the 6pt introduction, was because many were starting to notice the "drop off" in elk #'s.
It was also the reason why all those Cow LEH permits were reduced almost completely!
How we ended now having a zoneX hunt, just boggles my mind, but trust, I obviously can see what the argument was for it,
but never agreed with it.
I just hadn't completely realized that elk were moving "down", but not coming back up!
We were getting so close to recovering, imo.

[Bugle M In]

I have lived in the EK my whole life and am relatively new at hunting with 12 years in. When I first got into hunting it was great, we were getting action every time we went out. We may not kill a bull but the action was great and you would go home with a smile on your face. Then they introduced the open season cow calf for youth and senior as well as a hundred cow draws. When this was going on, every time you were in the bush it was none stop gun shots. Add that to the extreme loss of prime habitat caused by poor logging practices being done by private logging on a vast amount of private land and you have the situation we are in today. Lucky to even see Elk let alone get into some serious action calling them in. Just my 2 cents from what I am personally seeing

One other thing to add, is you are right, when it comes to "elk hunting", I never measured success by what was hanging in the tree at the end of the week.
Success was having "Bulls Bugle", having some action here or there, just like you say!
If it ended up being a 5pt, so what, and if I had different action during the week, and all were 5pts, it was just fun,
and yes, sometimes you need "luck" to have it be a 6pt.
But having "Action" more my measure of success, then whether I was successful or not.
My buddy, when I got him started, and wanted him in the sport, was just in awe of the different bulls that came in,
and the action, not the killing, that got him "hooked".
If it had been like it is now, I never would have had convinced him join in.

[Bugle M In]

Nice pics bugle, sorry to hear about no luck this year for you and your group.
I think you dont see Wolves, grizzly, cougar sign of any extent is because there simply isn't the game in the area for them to be interested in your area at this time. I have noticed a lack of wolf sign after they have diminished the game in the area and simply seem to disappear, or large amounts of them.

I would suggest overhunting has a larger role than anyone really knows or want to acknowledge, similiar to Moose, they are easy to pick off at times of the year, and easy to pop off 10-15 at a time. It happens on crown land and private land, nobody knows how many are hunted in this way, it happens in other provinces too, I have never seen 15 Elk in a pile but know guys who have.

Sadly, what is the point of game management when this happens? curtailing access will help. I have seen where Mule deer numbers have tanked, come back to surprising numbers after access has been curtailed, it helps, alot.

Agree, lack of much, if any Pred sign, is probably now an indication of a "close to dead valley".
As for Access, that has been curtailed for over 40 years.
Trust me, my dad spoke of countless road hunter all day long going up into the high country and back down.
Yes, I am sure there is the odd person breaking that rule, but I would guess the Vehicle Restriction, has curtailed traffic in
there by 99%.
It is good to see the most hunters are "Ethical".
Yes, there is poaching going on, but nothing significant that doesn't happen anywhere else. (no poaching ring going on!)
Yes, talking to some locals, much of the success these days is on private land, and yes, who knows what happen on some of
those properties, and at what time of the year.
A pile of 15, well yes, I have been hearing stories of that, and most of that seems to happen in December, from the sounds of it, so, that isn't really "Hunting Regs" gone wrong, but just another issue the could definitely be severely impacting Elk #'s!

[Bugle M In]

UP in 7b we are seeing the exact same thing slowly unfold. Years ago when everything was 6pt and non antlerless, you could easily see hundreds of elk in the farmers fields during the day. Then when the opened the cows with 3 pt bulls, it dwindled quick. Now you would be lucky to see a few elk at last light. The antlerless draws and GOS need to end. I would actually venture to say that was the #1 issue with the EK as well. Opening Cows, decimates an elk population quick. I can understand letting a few go LEH to the young hunters and only to assist on the troublesome elk, but how they do it now is complete B.S.

I understand, in '96 (I think?) when they implemented the 6pt restriction, they needed too.
I get it, as we had really devastated our Cow #'s at the time.
But, it should have been reversed back at some point, when many of us were seeing that the Cows were making a significant come back, but they didn't.
Sorry, but I just don't see how forcing every elk hunter to chase to the potential herd bull helps the situation??!
That 6pt Bull has won his right, as the strongest, fittest bull to breed (and hey, he might be a 5 pt!, antlers have nothing to do with it).
Anyways, we are chasing him.
I don't see the good in that, and the fact that some 5pts never become 6's anyways.
I have heard were there is a herd of 15, with 1, 6 pt bull, and there are probably 3 or 4 hunting parties pursuing that 1 bull!!
He has already had to fight his way to the top, and still has to hump his way thru the workload, all why trying to outsmart us.
(sad part is, even with all that , they still show us how stupid we are, when they leave us in the dust:-D)
It was the Cow permits back then, and then we just went and did it again, just lower down.
Some Cow LEH is fine, and in a healthy scenario, more then doable.

[masoncade1992]

I understand, in '96 (I think?) when they implemented the 6pt restriction, they needed too.
I get it, as we had really devastated our Cow #'s at the time.
But, it should have been reversed back at some point, when many of us were seeing that the Cows were making a significant come back, but they didn't.
Sorry, but I just don't see how forcing every elk hunter to chase to the potential herd bull helps the situation??!
That 6pt Bull has won his right, as the strongest, fittest bull to breed (and hey, he might be a 5 pt!, antlers have nothing to do with it).
Anyways, we are chasing him.
I don't see the good in that, and the fact that some 5pts never become 6's anyways.
I have heard were there is a herd of 15, with 1, 6 pt bull, and there are probably 3 or 4 hunting parties pursuing that 1 bull!!
He has already had to fight his way to the top, and still has to hump his way thru the workload, all why trying to outsmart us.
(sad part is, even with all that , they still show us how stupid we are, when they leave us in the dust:-D)
It was the Cow permits back then, and then we just went and did it again, just lower down.
Some Cow LEH is fine, and in a healthy scenario, more then doable.

100% agree. a 5 pt or better season would be key. we have seen lots of very small 5 pts and by shooting the ones with bad genetics and giving the herd bulls a break, the herd overall would be healthy. sometimes with the 3 point or better season, I think that its to much pressure on the up and coming bulls. The 3 pts are really dumb and will come in to a sneeze if they think its a cow haha.

[Bugle M In]

I might offer this up.... First, it seems often when hunters of the EK speak of concerns in the local region, hunters from other parts of the province seem to speak that, the observations presented by EK hunters, are false, that "things" are fine. "Our group limits out every year, things must be fine". (Like going on an elk hunt and taking 6 does is a good thing) Look back to old threads on this site. EK hunters expressed concern about wolves, about whitetail populations, about elk populations, about predators in general. Few hunters from around the Province believed, or respected the comments coming out of the EK. I'd suggest most real hunters in the EK, are more connected to the reality than hunters who visit here. Why not start with listening to them and giving them respect.

I believe, the link between front country populations and back country migratory populations is directly linked. Without high numbers in the front country, there is no need for back country elk. Why would an elk want to do that hike when everything they want and need is in the low lands? In the 90's there were false numbers of elk in the trench. It was an estimate of 20,000, and going forward, the number showed a trend, stating there were 25,000 elk. We knew the population was increasing, but there were no hard numbers on that population. Until this most recent airborne survey (6,000) the closest we have come to actual numbers, was 14,000 in the trench a few years ago. And, under pressure from the ranching community, the decision was made to bring that population down to 5,000. That objective (based on the recent count), was successful.

Under the present Government, what we lack, are wildlife management plans with measurable objectives. We lack a plan that has forest management, focused on wildlife. We lack an idea of land use, access. We lack support for increased 'huntable' populations. We lack appropriate decisions on Grizzly bears, on Caribou and on Indigenous peoples wildlife objectives.

We talk about balanced eco-systems. The problem talking about balanced ecosystems though is what is a balanced ecosystem? In a low density equilibrium, the prey base is at very low densities. It cannot increase because they are suppressed by predators; predators are also at low densities and cannot increase because they are limited by the prey base. As Bob Hayes said in his book “Wolves of the Yukon”, once in a low density equilibrium there is little if any prey available for hunter harvest. Is this a balanced ecosystem? If so is that what we are aiming for. Maybe hunters and Gov wildlife biologists see the objectives differently.

Wildlife management based on balance, trends and percentages is misleading. If a guy has 20 elk in his back 5 acres. With the right number of bulls, cows and calves, we could say that the elk population is balanced and sustainable. But there is no huntable population. And that is a missing objective.

We need increased resources to write wildlife management plans. We need to carry out cumulative impact assessments, evaluate logging practices, post burn management, vehicle access, climate change, when, where and how we hunt. We need to have a statement that we want, and will have, an increase in wildlife populations. Not just sustainable populations. We want more animals. We need to think of hunting as 'management hunting'. In support of a wildlife population objective.

Well Said J-T!!!
(as far as listening to EK hunters, that's fair, but not all of us down in the LM are out to lunch either, as many of us have had concerns for years, just as some ek hunters said, there are elk around, cause I have no problems getting mine, catch my drift?)

Anyways, that petty compared to all the fine/excellent points you put on here.
After reading your points, I kind of came to a very quick realization, that we our probably pretty much F****D if we are ever going to get all those stars aligned in a row!
Just remember folks, when a teetering rock, actually begins to fall, it accelerates real quick before it "crashes".
I think the rock might have just dropped off the edge.

[HighCountryBC]

The best summer range in the world doesn't mean a thing if the winter range doesn't have the carrying capacity to support higher numbers. Populations will always be limited by this. Poor quality habitat and high predator numbers means one thing for ungulates. Most are coming around and figuring that out but others still want to scream for more regulations.

Fund it, burn some significant country, have a predator management plan and start protecting vital winter range. Look at some of the states that are similar to BC: They don't have useless antler point restrictions like we do here and instead harvest both sexes and across all age classes. That in addition to all the things mentioned above results in great quality habitat and sustainably high game numbers available to hunt.

A lot of hunters are coming around but there are still a large percentage that think everything will be solved by if we just keep restricting seasons. It hasn't worked for 40+ years but why not give it another try eh!

[Bugle M In]

The best summer range in the world doesn't mean a thing if the winter range doesn't have the carrying capacity to support higher numbers. Populations will always be limited by this. Poor quality habitat and high predator numbers means one thing for ungulates. Most are coming around and figuring that out but others still want to scream for more regulations.

Fund it, burn some significant country, have a predator management plan and start protecting vital winter range. Look at some of the states that are similar to BC: They don't have useless antler point restrictions like we do here and instead harvest both sexes and across all age classes. That in addition to all the things mentioned above results in great quality habitat and sustainably high game numbers available to hunt.

A lot of hunters are coming around but there are still a large percentage that think everything will be solved by if we just keep restricting seasons. It hasn't worked for 40+ years but why not give it another try eh!

Yup, I still am of the same opinion.
The lack of #'s has nothing to do with point restriction.
If it had, this thread would not have been started by me.
This is about low #'s!
This is about a very "Complex Set of Issues".
This isn't about hunters "shooting it to shit", except for the policies that have left us with no other alternatives where it applies!

Remember the days of going to the Bull River, and I camp every 50 yards or so!?
Well, now the hunting is so bad, that many here in the LM, including my other hunting partners are talking that next year,
we are "gong to the Peace Region"!!

Talk about forcing hunters to fit tighter and tighter into a barrel, just to go hunt, and trip over themselves.
If we don't start growing Ungulates soon in all corners of the Province soon, it will be that there isn't much around for any of us to pursue.
Sure, there will be success here and there, but, this is not the type of situation any of us want to endure.

[Bugle M In]

Definitely would agree, big changes along the Columbia since the 2000's and all the new development, and city folk moving up to be hobbyist farmers etc.
Another big change at about the same time.
More Winter Range Lost for sure.

[Bugle M In]

Here's a bull I seen 2 years straight, always a 5pt.
And yes, both times with cows.
It does not mean his offspring will only be 5 pt's, but he does carry the gene.

https://i.imgur.com/TmxnXXL.jpg

[ramcam]

I am probably going to get flack for this again, when 25 percent of the bull elk harvest last year in the East Kootenays was spike bull elk, when one family shoots 2 or more bulls because they can,
when you shoot an elk or a deer for the old guy down the street who cant get out, when your human greed gets us in a pickle with ungulate populations as well as the mining,
the logging and the predators the quickest band aid starts with us. The whitetails in the Elkvalley are in bad shape but I bet a lot of you reading this will shoot some does for sausage,
at what cost do you need to eat a little wild meat? Get out and look for hunting opportunities not killing opportunities. We are very responsible for the wildlife being in the tank,
as much as predators and industry. Just my opinion, not saying I am right or wrong, just think about having to feel success by pulling the trigger maybe let a few things walk to get
bigger or older or spread its genes.

[masoncade1992]

Here's a bull I seen 2 years straight, always a 5pt.
And yes, both times with cows.
It does not mean his offspring will only be 5 pt's, but he does carry the gene.

https://i.imgur.com/TmxnXXL.jpg

NICE bull! fully mature and ready for harvest.... in 7b;)

[Bugle M In]

My way of hunting inside Vehicle Restriction Areas.

https://i.imgur.com/tpxySPT.jpg

[Bugle M In]

So, am I alone.
From the pm's I am getting, nope.
One pm was similar to my past hunting experiences.
Having that one area you just couldn't wait to get to!
So, you saw my rig, and I would have to push that piece of crap uphill for almost 2 hrs, to get to this place.
The Bench (something to always look for when looking/searching out new elk spots).
I couldn't wait to get up there, glass for a bit, then let out a high pitched bugle!
4 out 5 times, you would get an immediate reply! (not always 6's however, but stimulating none the less!)

Heres the question:

Are all Cut Blocks created equally, and are "all of them good"!????
This one was!
Elk would feed in here, or hang out in it, but at some point, they will bed, get out of those near 30+ C temps we have had for years!
To the right of the cut block, on the hillside in the foreground, the elk would travel to get into shade, plus, there was a decent flowing creek in there, that for one, they could get all their daily water needs, and secondly, because this stream was fast flowing, and in the shade, due to mature timber, it acted like a "natural air conditioner" for the elk.
Absolutely a perfect scenario, and it showed.
All components in perfect alignment for good habitat, elk and hunting.

https://i.imgur.com/7MICK8C.jpg

[Bugle M In]

Now, again, are all cut blocks equally as good????
As the "Bench" started to grow up, this new Block happened.
Now, if you look, to the upper left area of the new cut block, just beside it is that sane fast flowing creek that the elk would go for water, cooling and more the anything, bedding!

Can you guess what happened??
Yup, area became void of elk very quickly, with no elk sign, or droppings at all.
They did not us it.
My thoughts, this was a bedding area, not a feeding area.

So, do bedding areas have any consideration before logging happens?
(Again, not trying to blame the logger folks here, after all, my place is made from lumber, we need it)
Just asking others thoughts, or have any ever consider the "impacts of some cut blocks".
To me, some are great for feed, while others were, in my opinion, bedding areas/wallow, that required the mature growth stay put. (that's it for now, stories and pics soon)

https://i.imgur.com/c86mlU1.jpg

[Liveforthehunt]

I have some bad but realistic news... its not any better in 7B the peace pops are way down dad went up with little bro didn't see a moose or elk the whole 10 days. Also 2 different groups of buddy's went up one group saw 2 bulls no cows or calfs both not legal in an 8 day trip the other 2 weeks and saw 2 cows and shot 1 6 point bull .

[Bugle M In]

Doesn't surprise me, when you see on FB how many guys head up that way now to hunt elk from the LM, probably due in part
to the bad situation in their old EK spots.
I remember the year it was starting to look bad, and ex guide stopped by to chat, who had horses and said, next year he was headed to the Peace, due to how grim it was looking where I hunt.
I should have taken his advice, I may of had a few good seasons in before "word really got out".
Don't get me wrong, elk still in the EK, and if you have friends with private property, all the better, but it's no where near what
it should be.
Still elk there in the Peace to, but we are all being pushed into the same small boxes to hunt them.
No room to spread out due to lack of availability.

[Bugle M In]

So, how about KNP?
I remember in 1976, my dad and friends, looking for new areas to hunt to get away from the "Bull River Crowds".
I remember that night, driving thru the park, around Kootenay Crossing, counting well over 200 head of elk, standing right next to the highway, over a 10 mile stretch (miles back then).
Tons of Elk around back then.
Then, it died out over time.
Word was, it was due to the "bad habitat", and it was probably true, since the park probably hadn't seen a real fire in over 100 years, due in part to policy, "fire suppression".
Then as the onset of logging happened outside the park, is was abundantly clear the elk were leaving for better food sources.
At that time, Wolves were never even considered to be the issue, habitat was.

Now, sometime around 2002-2003, someone came up with the idea to transplant some park elk from some other park,
put tags and collars on them, and released them in KNP.
I have to say, who ever came up with that idea, and who ever "signed off" on that idea, should have been fired!
Lets see, tons of elk had left the park, so you think 10 or so are going to be different???
What an utter waste of money and resources, imo.
On top of that, you don't release park elk into an area where you almost surely know, they will end up right out of the park, and a GOS area. (my understanding, the elk left the park inside 24hrs!)
Save park elk for areas where you wish to "transplant elk" into areas where you want elk to one day roam, that at the present time, don't have a season for them.
And if I can add, to no longer consider transplants right next to major FN Reservations etc.
(they can spend the cash we gave them to get their own elk, imo)
Anyways, just got a little pissed there.

So, since then, KNP has had a "Huge Fire", but from my understanding and many I have talked to, the elk still haven't returned.
Like J-T said, hard to have elk come back, even to great habitat, if they don't even exist, especially in the winter range/low altitude areas to begin with.
So, good habitat, but no elk, in a traditionally good area to hold elk from past history.

Here is the Cows which led to the demise of a nice 6pt bull, right at opening, a day before I got there, which was taken about
6ft from where I place the camper.
(is that even legal to shoot something that close to your vehicle...lol)
Sorry for the crap photo.

https://i.imgur.com/j3bo6WF.jpg

[.308SLAYER]

I envy you guys that's used to hunt when the elk hunting was "good"....not saying this is the case but I seem to always hear these same things elk are quite not seeing them. I've been hunting the same spot in the koots for 5 years a road that ppl said you need a Bush bumper to get through camps yet every single year the elk are there 3 4 kilometers back in bowls where there are no ppl some in nearly un harvestable places. The elk are there there just smart watched a 6 point scrape a tree on the rocks in the alpine for half a hour begging of sep bugling with no calls needed. Skunked the last few years with multiple oppurtunities

[.308SLAYER]

There's still some big boys out there they dont get big running around the cutblocks

[Bugle M In]

There's still some big boys out there they dont get big running around the cutblocks

True, but they cant stay up there forever.
And that is where the issue is.
There are 3 main rivers, so 3 main valleys with scree slopes, cut blocks and bowls a plenty up there!
Thing is, eventually the snow comes in, and they have to move out of either of these 3 valleys, to join into
a single "medium" river valley, which then flows into the "big one".
Problem is, as was my conversation with the GO, there isn't much coming thru, and his cabin and my main location is
basically a "pinch point".
The cut blocks and benches are other areas I try as well.
I used to be like you, thinking the others were just doing it wrong, or not being patient enough etc etc.
I outlasted the last group by 10 years, but it's finally starting to hit home for me as well.
Like J-T said, some will have success based on their individual experiences, but the "many" will know that there are some
real issues happening, and as he said, the locals see it better then most.

[.308SLAYER]

Elk amaze me the distances they can travel and there ability to hide dont know how many times I've found the herd because that one cow gave them away...the last few years kicked my ass big difference between finding elk and killing them beautiful pictures and country op sorry to hear about your honey hole

[Bugle M In]

Want to talk "Bowls"???
Okay, but first I have to apologize, I don't have phots of those, I would have to dig thru my dads photo album and scan pics.
But, I an offer you a Trail, a game trail, and a horse trail that very few know or knew about.
It went up this creek for miles, coming into some of the greatest elk hunting bowls you could imagine.
But with age, packing all the way out, gets harder, so the attempts to go in there to hunt lessen over the years, especially when the only pack horse is your own 2 feet and ailing back.

Let me show you what has also happened to "Corridors" for Elk to come from those (Alpine Deep Back Bowls, not just cut blocks).
I cant even remember how many bulls and their cows came down this creek trail, over the years but lots!
Also one across the river from this one as well, with back country bowls etc, and a game trail.

This is what happens after years of Beetle Kill, and one big Flood.
Do you all think much is going back up that way to those bowls?
Do you think much is going to "come down in the Fall from those Bowls on this trail any longer"???

https://i.imgur.com/J1wt5Fu.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/Bnl61Bq.jpg

[Bugle M In]

Elk amaze me the distances they can travel and there ability to hide dont know how many times I've found the herd because that one cow gave them away...the last few years kicked my ass big difference between finding elk and killing them beautiful pictures and country op sorry to hear about your honey hole

Fair enough.
Just remember, it wasn't just my "honey hole".
There was enough room for several parties of hunters to enjoy, and have the potential for success.
If anything, like others said, just to hear them bugle, or chase one here and chase another there.
That's the sad part.
This should have Elk, not just for me, but for "future generations" like my Daughter and you children as well someday.

That's the only reason I am putting this together, to hopefully "open eyes".
If it costs me giving up my "honey hole", so be it.
I want to at least try to make a difference for the future.

As the elk population decreases, I assure you, you will either face competing with other hunters looking for those same elk,
or worse, it will dry up as well.
I was in your boat not too long ago.
Please understand, I am not trying to put down your achievements, you should be proud of what you are achieving.
But, we are missing elk in a lot of places that should have elk, or , a lot more elk.

[Bugle M In]

Did come across the article of today.
I am surprised at the amount of elk they "only want to have"???
I thought, if everything was good, and all factors were aligned, that we should be able to sustain 20-25,000 head of elk.
Now I see they are only trying to now sustain under 12,000??
https://www.columbiavalleypioneer.com/news/province-to-tackle-declining-elk-populations-in-east-kootenay/

[J_T]

^^ precisely. The drop in the population from 14000 to 6000 was not a surprise. It was intentional. And when I want 30,000 elk and hunters want a "huntable population", we need to be very clear with our expectations. Government, trying to find the middle ground, sees "sustainable" as very different than you and I.
When I speak with Government managers I ask them to help me understand what they mean by sustainable populations. And whether or not they, as Gov employees support having huntable populations.

[okas]

well it was the cow season for elk and moose was the start as all the bug kill and gas and power lines moved a lot of game around this spread them out and now the elk are in small bunches . With eyes and ears wide open:shock: and all the logging lots of food now

[okas]

I feel the moose are doomed as the elk are pushing them out like the white tail due the mule deer

[Bugle M In]

I feel the moose are doomed as the elk are pushing them out like the white tail due the mule deer

It's a good thing the Moose are LEH up there (I say that sadly, as years ago they were open).
Yes, there is a Spike/Fork Season with bow and then rifle, but to be honest, that for the most part is just a "money grab",
getting us all to go out and buy a tag, imo.
Now, if you get the LEH, that's another story, and I have to say where I hunt, I am seeing Moose quite often, and some nice ones!
But, if it was a GOS, they would be gone!

[Bugle M In]

^^ precisely. The drop in the population from 14000 to 6000 was not a surprise. It was intentional. And when I want 30,000 elk and hunters want a "huntable population", we need to be very clear with our expectations. Government, trying to find the middle ground, sees "sustainable" as very different than you and I.
When I speak with Government managers I ask them to help me understand what they mean by sustainable populations. And whether or not they, as Gov employees support having huntable populations.

Yup J-T, I just "got it"!!!
Here I was under the impression that we were still wanting to achieve 25,000 head of elk.
Now reading, and better understanding your posts, I now know exactly what you are talking about.

That is a scary realization folks!
Think about it everyone.
At one time, we probably did have 25-30,000 elk in the Trench.
Not too long ago, we were hearing reports of 8,000.
That means you when you could have possibly seen 3 elk, you now only have the chance to see 1.
And now, with the reality of the #'s being in the area of 6,000 (which is already a 25% decrease from just a year or so ago),
you could have seen 4-5 elk for every 1 you see now!

So, we have an area, that had 25,000 elk.
Now we are going to allow the "powers that be", to have only as much as 12,000 elk (if they get that right?), which means that is a 50% reduction in elk since the 70's!

So, what is going to be the "acceptable amount" say, 20 years from now???
I can just see it, I will be on my death bed, my daughter will come up to me and say "hey dad!, I just read an article that
says the ministry is going to make every effort to sustain 6000 head of elk in the Trench"!!!???.
(a further 50% reduction, and 5x's fewer elk as historical highs).
So, that's what we are really dealing with!

[Kootenaykid85]

This thread is annoying, you dont blame over hunting but you hunt one of the most hunted drainages in the kootenays. You think the elk hunting is going to get better?. Ive drove by that road closure parking lot many times and seen it packed full of camps. looks like instead of complaining on here you should be looking for a new area to hunt. there is still alot of country in the east/west kootenays that have great elk hunting and little to no pressure. things are not the same anymore, animals arnt migrating like they used to. Some animlas live in the trench alll year while some are staying up high where only the strong are surviving. Where I hunt, the elk live right on top of the mountain in the summer to early fall months. Sometimes we get lucky and catch one coming down low to check out some cows or for some other reason. I Could think of 3 spots off the top of my head that would be better elk hunting then your "honey hole". Us hardcore kootenay elk hunters are sitting back and laughing at threads like this, as we stare at our elk collections on the wall. We dont complain we just adapt be thankfull we can still hunt elk.

[Bugle M In]

Depends where you think I was hunting, feel free to pm me.^^^.
Spoke with several of you "hardcore type" thru pm's.
Seems to me that many find the same issue.
Yes, some who put in 40+ days up there (again, depending if you actually know where I am, and I doubt you actually do by your "parking lot" comment!, as that tells me you are already wrong, lol).

Must be why there are so many articles of late in the papers up there that are saying "changes are coming"!
Wonder why?
Even a local who lives all year round there, that runs tourist operations, and has been for years, has seen a sharp decline.
His words, "a 70% drop" he feels.
Outfitter must be a total tool in the area as well I suppose?
Doesn't sound like the majority from what I seen or heard from are laughing!
Actually, quite the opposite.
Your style of comments is why many here have left over the years, but I can see your a major contributor on here.
You must help a lot of people out I suppose on the thread?????
Anyways, even one of our most enjoyable members on here, whose big passion is elk hunting, lives in one of the hot spots, just put in 40 days of elk hunting, worked his ass off, and saw basically nothing.

Are the elk, yes.
But, there is some real issues developing.
Why they got rid of the cow LEH back in the late 90's (as they knew there was problems handing out like 400 tags per MU) and also why they implemented 6pt, is beyond me, if in the end they weren't going to address other issues that were happening.
Add all those restrictions, to then just open up zone x.
In the end, you will now be seeing very little cow leh (for those who did like that for harvesting), if any.
Why, because they know #'s are now too low, about half of even what they wanted to achieve.
oops.

[Bugle M In]

I’m gunna take a wild guess that u were up the galbraith, if that was the case then over hunting is defiantly a issue. The previous outfitter killed way to many elk. Grizzly bears eat them like sunflower seeds up there and the few that are left have adapted and live high and free
Oh yes, you wanted to "take a guess" on the area.
Answer: NOPE, wrong, not even close.

[HighCountryBC]

I would take both a "local tourist operator" and outfitter's anecdotal reporting with a very large grain of salt.

[Kootenaykid85]

I would take both a "local tourist operator" and outfitter's anecdotal reporting with a very large grain of salt.

lol lower mainlander calls local east kootenay outfitter to ask how his elk hunting has been..... I bet that conversation held no lies. haha

[Kootenaykid85]

Oh yes, you wanted to "take a guess" on the area.
Answer: NOPE, wrong, not even close.


yup I was, but didnt see any pictures yet.

[LBM]

Its not a secret area, my buddy just checked his cameras up there last week and theres elk on them among other things
6 points as well.

[Bugle M In]

lol lower mainlander calls local east kootenay outfitter to ask how his elk hunting has been..... I bet that conversation held no lies. haha

Why, do you think all GO's are a bunch of lying jerks?
Do you think the 2 before him, one of which held the area for decades, and was concerned was lying.
Why would the younger family members who are GO's themselves, elsewhere, not take over the territory?
I guess when you know people in town who also know that the GO's have had little success, they must be lying as well?

You can take my concerns for nothing if you so want, that's fine.
All I was trying to show members was, that although we talk about "habitat" as a big concern, that like me and the GO in the area would say, we would argue with anyone to tell us there is "not enough feed" in the high country around there.
An area that did hold elk historically for years.
I know I have spoke to more than just the local GO, or the local resident in the area, or the guys who work the area day in and day out, and they all feel the same way.
I've talked to folks who hunt more up north of me, and know there is a definite shortage of elk, even those that had success this year.
Same goes to the south of me, that they are seeing elk, but are concerned at how few there seem to be these days.
I have never based success on "if I cut my tag or not".
And there are lots of ways to tell if elk are around, not just by visual confirmation, but the sign they leave etc, even if they were there for a few short months per season.
And yes, some years are going to be poor, just happens that way sometimes, but this is more unusual then normal, by a long shot.

Yes, one can go elsewhere, but it is a shame that an area that once held plenty of elk, does not any longer, and that should be of concern to everyone, from a conservation stand point.
Eventually areas like yours could slowly get over run potentially, when folks start looking elsewhere because their areas are now depleted of game, and o signs of them ever returning.
Is that the type of province you want for resident hunters?
Yes, I could have gone to where I knew there where 120 head of elk appr., but there is very little public land to hunt on around there, and everyone (especially the locals) were all over it.

There are concerns elsewhere for Moose in the province (even though some will still be successful), and other areas are now becoming alarming for MD (by those who are real avid MD hunters and have the time and experience, even though I have yet to see it around me, but doesn't mean that I think they are lying or are wrong).
I am just passing along that we need to start being aware that there are some real concerns for elk #'s in the EK.
That is not based on cutting a tag, and it took me years longer then most to "give up" on the area, and to realize those GO's were not lying, otherwise they would still own the territory.

One other thing to consider about GO's, whether you like them or hate them, they hold the license for the territory, and thus want it "huntable".
But if the area becomes void of game, thus not able to sustain a huntable business, and word gets out, and no other GO decides to buy it up, it can fall into the hands of folks like Raincoast, and you now how they view hunting, and will want all those areas to become reserves, void of hunting if they can.
Not a road any of use want to go down.
Most GO's wont give away trade secrets etc, but GO's have one shortcoming, they use horses, so over the years you get to know exactly where they do their hunting!
On top of that, I have a pretty good relationship with this GO, and have even given them info of what I saw and where at the end of the week (I wont tell them before I go however).
Why not, he seems like a good guy, and seems like a decent GO, compared to one in the past who was bad for wildlife.
Rather see a legit guy, who cares, stay in business, then to have it shot to shit by one who is all about the cash.

But you are right, I am in talks with some on here about where to go next season, unless I get that bull moose draw
for the area;)

[Bugle M In]

Its not a secret area, my buddy just checked his cameras up there last week and theres elk on them among other things
6 points as well.

Hey LBM, how are you, I was surprised you hadn't chimed in til now!
Yup, spoke to a local, even closer to the area then yourself in town.
There is one nice 6pt for sure in there, and saw where they came out of from the high country, and know where they ended up (atleast at that time).
But, its a far cry from the game #'s it once was up there.
And, those elk only came out of one of the 3 main valleys in there.
I never said the area was completely void of elk, but the #'s are way down in there for sure.

As for Wolves and our discussion earlier this year, yup, would have to agree, there was no sign of them whatsoever.
Not sure if that is a good thing or not????
At least if they are around, you know they have a food source available.
Cougars were also not seen in there as well this time.
Moose are doing well , for what it is worth, but will never be a GOS ever again for them.
The one thing that did look promising is the amount of MD sign, which seems to be growing over the past 3 years.

What is funny however, is you do take the time to say "elk are there, or game is there", but in other posts you say
"The game will never be like it was before"???
That humans have destroyed it?

I get the human factor, and all accounts, but I will never just point a finger at hunters and say they "shot it to shit".
Even the local from town who its all the areas, all the time, on mtn bike says he is concerned as well.
His feeling it is "over hunting", thus the "shot to shit ek" comment he made, or as he says "the locals call it".

I have no reason to believe this was or has been the case, especially when you factor in the countless miles of Road Restrictions in all those watersheds, and by the time they get out of there, the season is closed.
As for what happens after the season, poaching etc, I doubt it is any more problematic then any where else in the province, atleast from the "evidence" point of view.

Zone X does however correlate to the right time frame for the decline in #'s from my thoughts, and wolves have always been up there, but maybe it was a slow death, that took years to show up, and why many, even the studies, suggest elk are being pushed down low, and not returning back up to the high country come spring.

Might also explain the correlation between elk being too numerous down low quickly, and why the locals wanted them Culled?

Either way, messy situation now.
But blaming hunters wont fix the problem, but carry on.

[Kootenaykid85]

there are 3 types of hunters out there.... well more then that but for arguments sake lets say 3

type 1- they drive 9 hours to hunt the same area there fathers.....grandfathers....great grandfathers did bla bla bla. 2 weeks later they go home and b@#%$ about how there are no animals left...and the world is going to sh#%.

type 2- guys who adapt to the current wildlife situation, try new areas try new things.... different times of the year....ext They Work their butt off becuase they love getting out and seeing new things. they may not be succesfull but they enjoyed getting out in it none the less.

type 3- their season isnt a 2 week vacation or the odd weekend out. they spend the off season building bait stations and putting up salt blocks to hold animals. Finding new areas... spending hours cutting trails into remote locations. They spend the winter hunting predators. They dont sit on a computer and pout to the hunting commuinity that they had a shi%%y year thats for sure.

I am not trying to piss you off but we understand its not like hunting in the 80s anymore and if you think it will ever be like that again you should find a new hobby.

[Bugle M In]

I would take both a "local tourist operator" and outfitter's anecdotal reporting with a very large grain of salt.

The tourist operator, yes, I would as well.
Except, he does like us, mostly because many of his guests think it is pretty cool to see hunters using mountain bikes to hunt, when they run into us.
Of course, some are offended.
But the operator also knows we are some of the honest guys that have reported illegal hunting activity in the past.
Mainly guys hunting beyond the road closures in vehicle (which, is limited, but does occur), even after we have told them that they are "out of bounds", and then continue to hunt anyways.
(the ones that go "oops" and leave, we never bothered with).

And I can see why some think GO's lie, because they don't want the competition, especially when money is involved.
But when you get GO's coming to your camp to chat, and you see their frustration, its very apparent after 3 different operators, that something is wrong, and they aren't lying.
If this was just one GO, I wouldn't have even dared to bring that comment up on this site, that's for sure!

Then you take the local who hunts all the areas around, and his experiences of the area and elk, and you start seeing the writing on the wall. (he was in for a different species in this area anyways)

[Bugle M In]

there are 3 types of hunters out there.... well more then that but for arguments sake lets say 3

type 1- they drive 9 hours to hunt the same area there fathers.....grandfathers....great grandfathers did bla bla bla. 2 weeks later they go home and b@#%$ about how there are no animals left...and the world is going to sh#%.

type 2- guys who adapt to the current wildlife situation, try new areas try new things.... different times of the year....ext They Work their butt off becuase they love getting out and seeing new things. they may not be succesfull but they enjoyed getting out in it none the less.

type 3- their season isnt a 2 week vacation or the odd weekend out. they spend the off season building bait stations and putting up salt blocks to hold animals. Finding new areas... spending hours cutting trails into remote locations. They spend the winter hunting predators. They dont sit on a computer and pout to the hunting commuinity that they had a shi%%y year thats for sure.

I am not trying to piss you off but we understand its not like hunting in the 80s anymore and if you think it will ever be like that again you should find a new hobby.

Nope, don't think you are trying to piss me off.

Take #3.
I know of a few guys doing that (I may not know exactly where they have them, but I have an idea where the area is),
and they are very disappointed with what they are seeing, or not seeing.
If they do see stuff, they are rarely 6's and if so, small.
And those bulls even if around, aren't lasting long once the season opens.
So, so much more a decent breeding stock, when it get to this point, so yes, we should be concerned.

#1, should I take offence?
That I drive 9hrs +, that I still hunt with family, in areas that should hold elk.
Yes I do take offence!
Especially when you think I don't work my ass off!!!
I put on more miles then just about anybody while I am there.
Is my only shortcoming that I am not there to hunt it 40 days like some, yes!.
Had I put in another week to the hunt, do I think I would have been successful, good chance yes.
As LBM said, there was a 6pt around, that had come down from up high.
How do I know, cause I worked my ass off! trying to find some elk to even hunt in there.
Just ran out of time!

#2 type, well I have done that as well, gone a little further south and to the left and to the right, and I don't see much
better down there.
Yes there are pockets of them, but a far cry from what once was.

Now, for your "HardCore" comment.
There are a few of you guys over the years, who think you are just that, and everyone else is not legit.
Without bringing up names directly, I remember one "real hardcore MD Hunter".
And it wasn't too long ago, just a couple of years back, where he like to "throw it in peoples faces" that they, the
#1's in your list, that had no clue what they were talking about, that they had no clue how to hunt, and they are just
babies etc.
On top of that, this same hardcore hunter would protest loudly when someone said areas were getting pounded by hunters, and that the game was getting shot up, blah bla bla.

Well, now this Hardcore MD hunter is now sounding like group #1?
Yet, he is a group#3 in your books.

I don't have an issue with MD and I hunt the same Region, but not same MU probably.
This hardcore hunter will probably go elsewhere as well, adjusting to the conditions, but I can tell you it still probably pisses him off that his honeyholes which should hold MD, do not now!

Now, do I put his skills to question, nope!
Do I just not believe him, because I am still having success?, nope.

I have said how the situation is for me as compared to him, and that I am not seeing the problems he is seeinh, which is fair, like you are with me!
Difference is, I have said to that hardcore MD hunter that it may only be a matter of time til I see the same sad results as him in my area.
(if it is the wolves or logging, that's up to debate, but #'s wouldn't be).
I just don't assume that because one is from the LM, that they are inadequate hunters.

I see a lot of locals who just drive all day long!.
I was talking about folks who's money is on the line, or live close by, and who do work at it.
The concern is, we have a large area that should hold elk, and isn't!
It is being under utilized and holding elk way below even a legitimate capacity!
That's what the concern is!
It's not just about me and my situation, or about you and your situation.
Its more about the future, and for those behind us coming up, who I am concerned more about.
If you disagree, fine, just don't categorize, a you have never spent a second in my boots, or know what miles I put on them or even where I am.
Hopefully the changes coming that are in discussion make a difference, but I am concerned that if they just plan on implementing more restrictions ( because that's all they can control, with little money involved), that it will be
a big failure.

But hey, I hope your right and I am wrong ( I do hope I am wrong cause if I am right, I do not feel so assured that it will be fixed anymore)

[Bugle M In]

Again, will post up the link, which seems to be from folks who are "locals", and from what I have experienced, I would concur:
https://www.columbiavalleypioneer.com/news/east-kootenay-elk-population-drops-50-in-past-decade/

As for folks coming from LM and/or hunting with family, I do take offence to that.
Hunting is something that most of us enjoy doing with family and friends, one of the biggest reasons we take up hunting, is to share the experience, not just cut tags.
I know of one member who we would all consider "hardcore" in regards to elk hunting, probably 99.9% more hardcore then most anyone else, who would give anything to still have his dad around to hunt elk with!
And, on top of that, ran into the similar problems with his honeyhole, and definetly nothing to do with his abilities and effort!
And, there are members on here, who never had the opportunity to hunt with their Dad's, as they lost them to soon in life, and didn't grow up with one, who would also have given anything to have done so.

I don't understand why we think anyone who isn't us, is bad?
Yes, there are a few GO's, a few FN, and yes even some residents that are bad news.
But, for the most part, most are good, and just because someone isn't a local, doesn't mean they are incapable or clueless!
Everyone of the folks that decided to get themselves reported to the CO, where I was involved with, sadly was a local!
There's lots of us down here that when we are there, put in the miles and effort.
But again, just another rift in the hunting community at large.
You know, us the locals and then those frickin jokes from the LM ruining everything for you up there.

Just shows how divided up we are, and always will be, and how little anyone is prepared to move forward, trying to fix up our wildlife conservation problems.

[Kootenaykid85]

I did not mean hunting with your family is a sin, I meant hunting is not like it used to be for them.... in the areas they used to hunt.......

[Bugle M In]

I did not mean hunting with your family is a sin, I meant hunting is not like it used to be for them.... in the areas they used to hunt.......

I agree, we get older, and cant hunt like we once did, that why they have us:razz:.
But, at 79, my dad was still pushing a mtn bike, and I can tell you, you don't want to see his medical file, as it is
amazing what he endures and yet still works hard.

Is it like it was, nope, and will it ever be, no!
I had hoped that some of the changes in the late 90's were going to help, and for a short time, looked good, but now,
nope.

And I agree, as time goes by, things change.
But, I know many guys who had honeyholes, that then dried up for x amount of years, and then suddenly as it had dried up, it came back to life.
I expected it to be the same here, and with the lack of other hunters, basically none, compared to the late 80's, the game should of had an easier time (if we want to blame hunting for the loss of game and pressure).
But why the major collapse??, beyond me.
Slow years yes, but not to this degree, for this long.
I have taken many different folks along, others who are either avid MD hunters or Moose hunters or sheep hunter.
They know I put all my time into it, and all my efforts, so when they hear what I am experiencing, they know I am not
just whining.
I know LBM likes to point out that I missed some etc, nothing new there.
But, I used to spend several days scouting and then several days hunting them.
Now I spend most of my days just scouting for them, and if I am lucky, I get 1 day left to hunt them.
So yes, I guess it will have to be a full 2 to 3 week hunt.

One thing to think about, speaking to another member who did finally connect.
He and his partner, who are locals, and him just learning elk hunting, spent the full season, whenever they could trying to hunt for elk.
Seems like for the entire season, they hit the same area, trying to connect with 1 legal bull they saw.
Imagine, hunting that many days, and only ever pursuing the "same bull"???
You would think that maybe th4ey would have chased several different bulls over that time, but no, just the same one.
When did elk hunting become a "sheep hunt"?

[Wild one]

Bugle m in mail box full

[horshur]

I might offer this up.... First, it seems often when hunters of the EK speak of concerns in the local region, hunters from other parts of the province seem to speak that, the observations presented by EK hunters, are false, that "things" are fine. "Our group limits out every year, things must be fine". (Like going on an elk hunt and taking 6 does is a good thing) Look back to old threads on this site. EK hunters expressed concern about wolves, about whitetail populations, about elk populations, about predators in general. Few hunters from around the Province believed, or respected the comments coming out of the EK. I'd suggest most real hunters in the EK, are more connected to the reality than hunters who visit here. Why not start with listening to them and giving them respect.

I believe, the link between front country populations and back country migratory populations is directly linked. Without high numbers in the front country, there is no need for back country elk. Why would an elk want to do that hike when everything they want and need is in the low lands? In the 90's there were false numbers of elk in the trench. It was an estimate of 20,000, and going forward, the number showed a trend, stating there were 25,000 elk. We knew the population was increasing, but there were no hard numbers on that population. Until this most recent airborne survey (6,000) the closest we have come to actual numbers, was 14,000 in the trench a few years ago. And, under pressure from the ranching community, the decision was made to bring that population down to 5,000. That objective (based on the recent count), was successful.

Under the present Government, what we lack, are wildlife management plans with measurable objectives. We lack a plan that has forest management, focused on wildlife. We lack an idea of land use, access. We lack support for increased 'huntable' populations. We lack appropriate decisions on Grizzly bears, on Caribou and on Indigenous peoples wildlife objectives.

We talk about balanced eco-systems. The problem talking about balanced ecosystems though is what is a balanced ecosystem? In a low density equilibrium, the prey base is at very low densities. It cannot increase because they are suppressed by predators; predators are also at low densities and cannot increase because they are limited by the prey base. As Bob Hayes said in his book “Wolves of the Yukon”, once in a low density equilibrium there is little if any prey available for hunter harvest. Is this a balanced ecosystem? If so is that what we are aiming for. Maybe hunters and Gov wildlife biologists see the objectives differently.

Wildlife management based on balance, trends and percentages is misleading. If a guy has 20 elk in his back 5 acres. With the right number of bulls, cows and calves, we could say that the elk population is balanced and sustainable. But there is no huntable population. And that is a missing objective.

We need increased resources to write wildlife management plans. We need to carry out cumulative impact assessments, evaluate logging practices, post burn management, vehicle access, climate change, when, where and how we hunt. We need to have a statement that we want, and will have, an increase in wildlife populations. Not just sustainable populations. We want more animals. We need to think of hunting as 'management hunting'. In support of a wildlife population objective.
Thanks!.......

[LBM]

Hey LBM, how are you, I was surprised you hadn't chimed in til now!
Yup, spoke to a local, even closer to the area then yourself in town.
There is one nice 6pt for sure in there, and saw where they came out of from the high country, and know where they ended up (atleast at that time).
But, its a far cry from the game #'s it once was up there.
And, those elk only came out of one of the 3 main valleys in there.
I never said the area was completely void of elk, but the #'s are way down in there for sure.

As for Wolves and our discussion earlier this year, yup, would have to agree, there was no sign of them whatsoever.
Not sure if that is a good thing or not????
At least if they are around, you know they have a food source available.
Cougars were also not seen in there as well this time.
Moose are doing well , for what it is worth, but will never be a GOS ever again for them.
The one thing that did look promising is the amount of MD sign, which seems to be growing over the past 3 years.

What is funny however, is you do take the time to say "elk are there, or game is there", but in other posts you say
"The game will never be like it was before"???
That humans have destroyed it?

I get the human factor, and all accounts, but I will never just point a finger at hunters and say they "shot it to shit".
Even the local from town who its all the areas, all the time, on mtn bike says he is concerned as well.
His feeling it is "over hunting", thus the "shot to shit ek" comment he made, or as he says "the locals call it".

I have no reason to believe this was or has been the case, especially when you factor in the countless miles of Road Restrictions in all those watersheds, and by the time they get out of there, the season is closed.
As for what happens after the season, poaching etc, I doubt it is any more problematic then any where else in the province, atleast from the "evidence" point of view.

Zone X does however correlate to the right time frame for the decline in #'s from my thoughts, and wolves have always been up there, but maybe it was a slow death, that took years to show up, and why many, even the studies, suggest elk are being pushed down low, and not returning back up to the high country come spring.

Might also explain the correlation between elk being too numerous down low quickly, and why the locals wanted them Culled?

Either way, messy situation now.
But blaming hunters wont fix the problem, but carry on.

Nothing to chime in about just the same old stuff from you.
This is nothing new game numbers have been dropping in various areas of the EK for years many have brought this up before
and were told there is no issue, you your self were in that group on some instances.
Yes there is elk and other game in there and it will never be like it was before, and yes humans are a big factor or cause of the decline.
Yet you then but blame on the cow seasons, and say moose season could not handle general season.
So will say it again you don't have a clue what goes on in there the rest of the year other then the 10 days your there.
You want to believe what the outfitter, tourist operator, and your ex CO buddy tell you that's your choice.

[LBM]

Nope, don't think you are trying to piss me off.

Take #3.
I know of a few guys doing that (I may not know exactly where they have them, but I have an idea where the area is),
and they are very disappointed with what they are seeing, or not seeing.
If they do see stuff, they are rarely 6's and if so, small.
And those bulls even if around, aren't lasting long once the season opens.
So, so much more a decent breeding stock, when it get to this point, so yes, we should be concerned.

#1, should I take offence?
That I drive 9hrs +, that I still hunt with family, in areas that should hold elk.
Yes I do take offence!
Especially when you think I don't work my ass off!!!
I put on more miles then just about anybody while I am there.
Is my only shortcoming that I am not there to hunt it 40 days like some, yes!.
Had I put in another week to the hunt, do I think I would have been successful, good chance yes.
As LBM said, there was a 6pt around, that had come down from up high.
How do I know, cause I worked my ass off! trying to find some elk to even hunt in there.
Just ran out of time!

#2 type, well I have done that as well, gone a little further south and to the left and to the right, and I don't see much
better down there.
Yes there are pockets of them, but a far cry from what once was.

Now, for your "HardCore" comment.
There are a few of you guys over the years, who think you are just that, and everyone else is not legit.
Without bringing up names directly, I remember one "real hardcore MD Hunter".
And it wasn't too long ago, just a couple of years back, where he like to "throw it in peoples faces" that they, the
#1's in your list, that had no clue what they were talking about, that they had no clue how to hunt, and they are just
babies etc.
On top of that, this same hardcore hunter would protest loudly when someone said areas were getting pounded by hunters, and that the game was getting shot up, blah bla bla.

Well, now this Hardcore MD hunter is now sounding like group #1?
Yet, he is a group#3 in your books.

I don't have an issue with MD and I hunt the same Region, but not same MU probably.
This hardcore hunter will probably go elsewhere as well, adjusting to the conditions, but I can tell you it still probably pisses him off that his honeyholes which should hold MD, do not now!

Now, do I put his skills to question, nope!
Do I just not believe him, because I am still having success?, nope.

I have said how the situation is for me as compared to him, and that I am not seeing the problems he is seeinh, which is fair, like you are with me!
Difference is, I have said to that hardcore MD hunter that it may only be a matter of time til I see the same sad results as him in my area.
(if it is the wolves or logging, that's up to debate, but #'s wouldn't be).
I just don't assume that because one is from the LM, that they are inadequate hunters.

I see a lot of locals who just drive all day long!.
I was talking about folks who's money is on the line, or live close by, and who do work at it.
The concern is, we have a large area that should hold elk, and isn't!
It is being under utilized and holding elk way below even a legitimate capacity!
That's what the concern is!
It's not just about me and my situation, or about you and your situation.
Its more about the future, and for those behind us coming up, who I am concerned more about.
If you disagree, fine, just don't categorize, a you have never spent a second in my boots, or know what miles I put on them or even where I am.
Hopefully the changes coming that are in discussion make a difference, but I am concerned that if they just plan on implementing more restrictions ( because that's all they can control, with little money involved), that it will be
a big failure.

But hey, I hope your right and I am wrong ( I do hope I am wrong cause if I am right, I do not feel so assured that it will be fixed anymore)

Please don't say things I didn't say, I never said there was a 6 point that had come down from up high.
I did say there was a 6 point in the area but he was in there, he was there in early sept.
Oh and to answer your PM yes was out looking for elk, you could quit sending those as well for so much of
what you say is contradicting.

[Bugle M In]

Nothing to chime in about just the same old stuff from you.
This is nothing new game numbers have been dropping in various areas of the EK for years many have brought this up before
and were told there is no issue, you your self were in that group on some instances.
Yes there is elk and other game in there and it will never be like it was before, and yes humans are a big factor or cause of the decline.
Yet you then but blame on the cow seasons, and say moose season could not handle general season.
So will say it again you don't have a clue what goes on in there the rest of the year other then the 10 days your there.
You want to believe what the outfitter, tourist operator, and your ex CO buddy tell you that's your choice.

I never blamed the cow season, not entirely, and never have.
It was the higher ups who stopped that hunt because they felt there was a problem and wanted to get #'s up.
And on top of that, at the same time put in 6pt restriction.
So, as you say, numbers are down, still, and you never included the road closures.

Funny thing is, you always state, people like me don't know what goes on here the "rest of the year".
There are a lot of us on here, who would love to finally know, from you LBM, what goes on up there the rest of the time.
Please enlighten us with your knowledge.
Tell us all why the game will never be like before.
Tell us please, since all the other folks are wrong.
Your almighty knowledge might help those who are in the dark actually correct the problem.
Heres you chance.

[Bugle M In]

Bugle m in mail box full
10/4, cleaned out, thanks, deleted lbm pm's...lol

[LBM]

I never blamed the cow season, not entirely, and never have.
It was the higher ups who stopped that hunt because they felt there was a problem and wanted to get #'s up.
And on top of that, at the same time put in 6pt restriction.
So, as you say, numbers are down, still, and you never included the road closures.

Funny thing is, you always state, people like me don't know what goes on here the "rest of the year".
There are a lot of us on here, who would love to finally know, from you LBM, what goes on up there the rest of the time.
Please enlighten us with your knowledge.
Tell us all why the game will never be like before.
Tell us please, since all the other folks are wrong.
Your almighty knowledge might help those who are in the dark actually correct the problem.
Heres you chance.

Again you just make things up, never said all other folks are wrong.
People that are concerned about it no, and there is those that are talked to about it, there are lots that are not in the dark.
Hopefully some can be fixed and maybe see a up turn someday.
On a side note CHB has posted some interesting thoughts/ideas last few days and JT quit often posts some good thoughts.

[Bugle M In]

Again you just make things up, never said all other folks are wrong.
People that are concerned about it no, and there is those that are talked to about it, there are lots that are not in the dark.
Hopefully some can be fixed and maybe see a up turn someday.
On a side note CHB has posted some interesting thoughts/ideas last few days and JT quit often posts some good thoughts.

So, whats your point???
I know JT has some very good points, and that he says that elk#'s are down in the EK.
Tghats all I have been trying to say, that it doesn't matter if I cut a tag, but when I see a big shift, in the worng direction, I think that's fair.
If I missed 1 6pt at the beginning of the season, so what, there should be more than just him in the area.
Only reason for the pm's was to keep your and my banter that happened last year, between us, as to not annoy others.
But again, you cant help yourself.

One thing you seem to do a lot of, not just with me, but many folks on here, especially of late again.
The other thing is, anyone if they want can see just what a member stands for on here.
All they have to do is go onto the persons profile, and look over all the posts they have contributed to.
In your case, its always the same bs.
You never seem to help anyone with "past experience", you never contribute to help others out.
Nothing!.
Just shows why many call you out as a Troll!
Why others say, disregard anything LBM has to say.
Why others think you are Anti.
On and on it goes with you.
A lot can be said by you and all that you contribute, which has been basically nothing.
And then confirm what I have been saying, thru what JT says.
That and all the poaching that goes on from your wisdom, because hey, you live there, and the CO's know squat!

Altleast when I got back home, I offered a few who I have gotten to know over the years some scouting info from my hunts and where they can go and start from, if they wanted.
And others I have shared where they can go for other game, like another for goat, if they want to.
And, in the same way, others have offered me advice, and many helped out to give info for my buddies son on his leh elk hunt of a lifetime.
You, I cant figure out which direction you point, at what given time, nor will I care after this post.
It's not even the few people I have spoken to that you have listed, but others who have shared similar experiences of late, and who did not even decide to take time to go up to hunt elk, because of the situation.
That's sad, when an area known for elk hunting, gets to its state it is now.
As for the "Kid", atleast I can respect that he puts the time in (something I know you don't, even less then me), and
if his experiences are different, so be it.
I have been in his shoes too, where I thought everything was fine, and others just didn't have clue.
But I can agree to disagree with him, but I will never allow to be insulted on "putting in a hardcore effort" when I
do show up.

You have to make up your mind who you are, and what you want to be, and if you will ever decide to contribute to others, be a part of the solution, or just chronic waste of time for many on here!?

[willyqbc]

Keep it between the lines gentlemen....airing out some personal fued will get this thread deleted.

Thanks
Chris

[Bugle M In]

Keep it between the lines gentlemen....airing out some personal fued will get this thread deleted.

Thanks
Chris

I here ya, and have tried.
I can accept a different perspective from the kid, but there is one individual who even after trying last year to take it to pm, to keep it out of the forum as not to waste others time and have it continually repeat itself.
Thought it had been rectified to a point where all could move on.
However, I see that Gatehouse was right in his advice, to just "ignore" him.

[northof49]

As said b4......ignore the fool. Just a troll

[Bugle M In]

As said b4......ignore the fool. Just a troll

I know, I should have given up before I even started with him.