Tahltan Central Government Requests Immediate Hunting Ban Throughout Tahltan Territor

[Ohwildwon]

Give them an inch, they take a mile...:mad:

http://tahltan.org/tahltan-central-government-requests-immediate-hunting-ban-throughout-tahltan-territory/

[Mulehahn]

Are they going to follow the same ban if it is put in place? Honest question!

[Sirloin]

https://i.imgur.com/tRjMFCw.jpg

You think they will be requesting​ after treaties start going through?

[tigrr]

Whitey can't hunt but guide and fn's still will.

[boxhitch]

Good map Sirloin
reality check

[canishunter22-250]

It's grasping at straws that these wildfires keep being used in the political struggle for the control of wildlife resources.
Sure, a couple of moose and bears get displaced or caught and burned during the actual fire, but the habitat value is dramatically enhanced for many, many years down the road as a result of the fires. I'm not saying it's always a good thing as people's homes burn down when they're caught in the crossfire, but fires like these are pretty much the best thing that could be happening from a moose's standpoint.
The claim that resident hunting should be shut down as far as several hundred kilometers away from the fire because they're unsure how 'devastated' the wildlife populations are going to be is the most absurd thing I've ever heard of.

[bearvalley]

Whitey can't hunt but guide and fn's still will.

It reads “respectfully asking resident hunters and others to refrain from hunting.....”
Don’t turn it into a whitey resident hunter versus guides and First Nations pissing match.

[338win mag]

It reads “respectfully asking resident hunters and others to refrain from hunting.....”
Don’t turn it into a whitey resident hunter versus guides and First Nations pissing match.
Someone else has already done that, and it aint tigrr.

[bearvalley]

Good map Sirloin
reality check

There are a couple of fires Sirloins map doesn’t show or are just outside the area.
The upper Klappan, anther northwest of Dease Lake and a third that is just outside the Tahltan boundaries that is threatening to burn Lower Post.
I’m not saying I support a complete closure but there are areas that warrant a shut down similar to what was done last year.
The way I see it is if Donaldson shuts down all of the Tahltan territory to hunting he has best look at all of BC.
Fires and smoke are affecting the entire province.

[bearvalley]

Someone else has already done that, and it aint tigrr.

In case you can’t read well enough to understand the request guides are included in the ban as well if it comes into effect.
Comprehend?

[338win mag]

In case you can’t read well enough to understand the request guides are included in the ban as well if it comes into effect.
Comprehend?
I comprehend very well, I was referring to the political masters who have ****ed over resident hunters,,,,again.

[wideopenthrottle]

it is becoming pretty obvious that if natives want more control over an area, all they have to do is light a few fires...very sad political nonsense with hunters caught in the middle

[Sirloin]

it is becoming pretty obvious that if natives want more control over an area, all they have to do is light a few fires...very sad political nonsense with hunters caught in the middle

Well.............that's not true..............totally unfair suspicion..............we all know first nations history of lighting fires are to cleanse the land and create more game! its not political at all! ;)

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/fire-fighting-first-nations-firekeepers-annie-kruger-penticton-bc-wildfire-mega-fire-1.4205506

The grandchildren of Annie Kruger remember her lighting an Export A Green cigarette, throwing on her logger's jacket and heading out to set fires near Penticton, B.C.

Before she died she was a firekeeper — as were generations before her in the Okanagan region of the province — and it was her job to use flames to purify the land by setting fire to berry bushes, hillsides and even mountains to renew growth and clear brush and create natural fireguards.

"Our family have been firekeepers for thousands of years," said Pierre Kruger, Annie's son.


Kruger cited several big fires he said his family started hundreds of years ago when lines of Kou-Skelowh people walked beating drums to warn wildlife before setting fire to what's now called Sylix territory.


"We warned the birds and four-leggeds," he said. "My mother taught us every fire is like a snowflake — no two are alike."


Annie kept up the tradition until she died in 2003.


By then, authorities had long cracked down on the practice, pushing fire prevention hard starting in the 1930s, in full-force after 1945. Fire became bad, something to battle or ban. Remember Smokey, the iconic bear who doused fire near forests?

Experts are urging provinces to adopt more Indigenous burning practices because the long crackdown on constructive burning has built up fodder for fires.

How much more is needed?


"How big is B.C.? That's how much should burn every 100 years," said Heathcott, who estimates that in every century prior to this one, most of our 95-million-hectare province burned.


It's not realistic to set fires on that scale in the 21st century, given that many forested areas are now in proximity to populated centres.


And nobody is advocating going back in time, but proponents like Heathcott say say more burning is needed.

A handful of First Nations groups are working to revive the lost practice of fire-keeping, but it's slow, said Pierre Kruger. "We have to re-educate people. None of our families' fires ever got away, but people don't understand fire anymore."

He says his grandmother's view of the megafires of today would be simple: people forgot to use fire.


How reviving the aboriginal practice of controlled fires could be good for land and wildlife. This story was produced with the support of the Bill Lane Centre for American West
http://www.cbc.ca/player/play/2392539513

[Busterpayton54]

Very educational.
If only I had a dollar for everyone that has looked at me like an idiot when I tell them our decades of fire suppression is the reason for the intensity of fires we have now.

[Sirloin]

a factor for the intensity yes...how about the cause though?





Central Okanagan posted July 6, 2018 by Dylan McCullough
RCMP suspect arsonist behind 29 Okanagan wildfires
The RCMP have released a shocking revelation of a suspected serial arsonist.

Over the past four years, Police have reason to believe 29 suspicious fires were deliberately set in Naramata, Okanagan Falls, Osoyoos, Oliver, Penticton, Summerland and Lake Country, according to a statement released by the RCMP.
http://www.kelownanow.com/watercooler/news/news/Central_Okanagan/Police_believe_29_wildfire_in_the_Okanagan_were_ar son/

[Ltbullken]

Good map Sirloin
reality check

Agreed. Good graphic.

[Bugle M In]

They can go kiss my ass!
I don't remember when I was now under the rule of any FN band???
I have no voting rights with them.....
My rules are passed from the government "we/I elect"...
not no FN pretend BS.

[Avalanche123]

What I find interesting is I see a few of my Talthan Facebook friends are already harvesting moose in the "proposed" area.......

What bugs me is the lack of consultation....

I also think the report that road kill has increased is not correct.

Regardless I truly hope the current BC Gov't is getting feedback from whoever represents the Resident Hunter and GOABC....

Finally if it is closed, then close it for an entire year and eliminate winter hunting when critters are perhaps more vulnerable and stressed than they are now.

[Linksman313]

[QUOTE=Sirloin;2028525]Well.............that's not true..............totally unfair suspicion..............we all know first nations history of lighting fires are to cleanse the land and create more game! its not political at all! ;)

Just ask a couple of former residents of Slave Lake Alberta about this one.

[bloody bellies]

I like how it states many of the tahltan families and locals will refrain, why not say ALL, bunch of clowns in the big top, that's what I get from it

[Stone C. Killer]

Bend over and take it boys

[Brambo]

We can’t keep giving into the FN. they just keep wanting more and more. Something needs to be done!

[HarryToolips]

If they're so concerned they should lead by example and ban themselves along with everybody else....but we know they're not going to do that because they've proven to be selfish and believe it should be their right only to hunt..we know this is their end game..

[f350ps]

We can’t keep giving into the FN. they just keep wanting more and more. Something needs to be done!
And what do you propose??? K

[Pemby_mess]

We can’t keep giving into the FN. they just keep wanting more and more. Something needs to be done!

The FN probably say the exact same thing about us. Funny how that works, eh?


If they're so concerned they should lead by example and ban themselves along with everybody else....but we know they're not going to do that because they've proven to be selfish and believe it should be their right only to hunt..we know this is their end game..

This is no surprise. If I was a FN leader and even occaisionally perused HBC, the climate for cooperation with non-indigenous hunters, would likely appear decidedly chilly. Nearly every day there is a new thread where a highly vocal minority seem surprisingly keen to throw all their personal baggage onto one small group of people.

The task of educating the majority, to the level adequate for moving forward in a mutually beneficial fashion must seem insurmountable.

[canishunter22-250]

We can’t keep giving into the FN. they just keep wanting more and more. Something needs to be done!

I completely agree! The only head-scratcher is how to approach it in today's social and political climate without simply being written off as selfish, racist, backwards hillbillies.

When in doubt, the uninformed masses always seem to find it easier to side with the poor, down-trodden, wrong-done First Nations rather than the vile "trophy hunters," or "sport hunters," or however they want to label us to best suit their agenda. Doesn't make a very good feel good story that a bunch of boring old outdoorsmen fill their freezers and feed their families with moose meat for another year.

[358mag]

Re: Tahltan Central Government Requests Immediate Hunting Ban Throughout Tahltan Terr

http://huntingbc.ca/forum/images/shades_of_green/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Brambo http://huntingbc.ca/forum/images/shades_of_green/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/showthread.php?p=2028712#post2028712)
We can’t keep giving into the FN. they just keep wanting more and more. Something needs to be done!



The FN probably say the exact same thing about us. Funny how that works, eh?
But us non FN's are the ones footing the bill for it eh !!!!! Funny how that works ... just saying ....

[canishunter22-250]

The FN probably say the exact same thing about us. Funny how that works, eh?



How often do you hear the argument that non-native hunters should have exclusive access to the wildlife resources? And to accomplish that by cutting all other users (including FN) out completely?

I personally have never heard of anyone pushing for that..

Not exactly an apples-to-apples comparison you're working with there..


I would say the common sentiment around here is that everyone should be treated more equally, not less, with each getting a fair shake in the game regardless of ethnicity or any other trait we happen to be born with or without. ((Not exactly a heinous concept in my opinion))

I'm yet to have anyone point out to me where in any of the treaties it mentions that FNs are entitled to exclusive access to the wildlife resources. I'm totally fine with them having treaty rights to hunt and fish, but not sure why it has to be that myself and every other British Columbian should be squeezed right out of the game in the process. It has become pretty clear that this is the vision that they're working towards in the long term.

[Brew]

^^^^you are right on this one

[Jack Russell]

Nothing to do with equality - all about exclusivity.

And our governments seem to be OK with that.

[HarryToolips]

How often do you hear the argument that non-native hunters should have exclusive access to the wildlife resources? And to accomplish that by cutting all other users (including FN) out completely?

I personally have never heard of anyone pushing for that..

Not exactly an apples-to-apples comparison you're working with there..


I would say the common sentiment around here is that everyone should be treated more equally, not less, with each getting a fair shake in the game regardless of ethnicity or any other trait we happen to be born with or without. ((Not exactly a heinous concept in my opinion))

I'm yet to have anyone point out to me where in any of the treaties it mentions that FNs are entitled to exclusive access to the wildlife resources. I'm totally fine with them having treaty rights to hunt and fish, but not sure why it has to be that myself and every other British Columbian should be squeezed right out of the game in the process. It has become pretty clear that this is the vision that they're working towards in the long term.
Exactly.....cmon Pemby, your a intelligent individual, I know you can see this, it's time to stop being politically correct, and start calling it for how it is...there are many FN groups that clearly have no intention of working with us...

[boxhitch]

What I find interesting is I see a few of my Talthan Facebook friends are already harvesting moose in the "proposed" area.......Aug 23 opening any bull, must be easy

[labguy]

The FN probably say the exact same thing about us. Funny how that works, eh?



This is no surprise. If I was a FN leader and even occaisionally perused HBC, the climate for cooperation with non-indigenous hunters, would likely appear decidedly chilly. Nearly every day there is a new thread where a highly vocal minority seem surprisingly keen to throw all their personal baggage onto one small group of people.

The task of educating the majority, to the level adequate for moving forward in a mutually beneficial fashion must seem insurmountable.

Horse poop...... There are more and more that are becoming increasingly fed up with the special treatment afforded certain people based on race. Simply because many don't spout off on public forums doesn't mean the frustration isn't there.

The frustration has absolutely nothing to do with racism and everything to do with this idiotic mentality that some people deserve more than others. A very simple concept and one that will never be resolved until everyone is treated equally.

[Cyrus]

Expect bands in burns lake fraser lake and fort st james to request the same. I have little doubt that that it likely all gets shutdown this year in those areas and around Dease. Chetwynd and area sure is going to be a busy place this year!!

[Walking Buffalo]

The FN probably say the exact same thing about us. Funny how that works, eh?



What was funny but is now just redundantly numbing is how you will always presume with a predictable bias.

25 years of working and living within FN society tells me you are wrong, again.
Keep on with your construct, ego is a difficult beast to contain, I don't expect you to control it.

[codeitin]

What's the concern here? All I see is letter from a group who has been concerned for some time over declining wildlife populations, who are exercising their position as recognized stakeholders of the area... thought that was part of the Klappan plan etc. ? Pretty sure any organization can write a letter with their recommendations and put out a press release. Also if moose season is open right now, and this letter is simply a proposal, why should any hunter stop hunting at this point?

Is there counterarguments from BCWF, BC government (also supposed roundtable members) etc. about why this closure should be unnecessary? I'd like to know because the only counter argument I'm seeing here is "because it's the FN saying so"?

[eatram]

I foresee a time in the nearer future where I am going to be sitting on the sidewalk, with my dog beside me, and a cardboard sign saying, "down on my luck, any spare moose-meat will help". Our backyard is getting smaller and smaller, and I truly am saddened by this. A really huge country we have. A really small population we have as well. And there isn't room for us ALL to enjoy it?! I am getting less and less patriotic everyday...

[Caribou_lou]

Is this Ban for Guided Non Residents also?

[bearvalley]

Is this Ban for Guided Non Residents also?

You got it Caribou_lou ...... a couple of outfitters have already pulled the pin and cancelled their season due to the fires.
If the complete territorial ban takes place it’s ALL SHUT DOWN.

[j270wsm]

What's the concern here? All I see is letter from a group who has been concerned for some time over declining wildlife populations, who are exercising their position as recognized stakeholders of the area... thought that was part of the Klappan plan etc. ? Pretty sure any organization can write a letter with their recommendations and put out a press release. Also if moose season is open right now, and this letter is simply a proposal, why should any hunter stop hunting at this point?

Is there counterarguments from BCWF, BC government (also supposed roundtable members) etc. about why this closure should be unnecessary? I'd like to know because the only counter argument I'm seeing here is "because it's the FN saying so"?


Seriously......you can't see the concern??

The issue is that they are asking the government and suggesting that resident hunters shut down/stop hunting in " their territory ". At the same time they are allowed to continue hunting. As mentioned before, if they are truly concerned about ungulate populations in " their territory " than they should be the first ones to stop hunting ungulates. If they stopped all hunting it would be the first step in showing that they are truly trying to do what's best for ungulates and it would also show all of us " hate mongering " resident hunters that they aren't just doing it for their own benefit.

[canishunter22-250]

What's the concern here? All I see is letter from a group who has been concerned for some time over declining wildlife populations, who are exercising their position as recognized stakeholders of the area... thought that was part of the Klappan plan etc. ? Pretty sure any organization can write a letter with their recommendations and put out a press release. Also if moose season is open right now, and this letter is simply a proposal, why should any hunter stop hunting at this point?

Is there counterarguments from BCWF, BC government (also supposed roundtable members) etc. about why this closure should be unnecessary? I'd like to know because the only counter argument I'm seeing here is "because it's the FN saying so"?

The concern is that the FNs already have established an end game of excluding everyone but themselves from wildlife resources. Now they are simply using anything and everything that they can as a foothold to muscle resident hunters out of the pie. This is what this is about - not actually anything to do with real impacts of fires on wildlife. It's just a convenient opportunity for them to hammer at their agenda again.

No different than the anti-gun crowd using any gun-related tragedy as a springboard to push their already-decided agenda. Long before these tragedies occur, they already have their responses and outrage formulated and they just simply wait for an event that they can use to leverage their position on.

Of course, if this was 100% about the fires and their impact then more residents would probably be okay forgoing a hunting season for the greater good of the wildlife. But that's simply not the reality of the situation. The fires are just being used as a pawn in a much larger picture.

[338win mag]

The concern is that the FNs already have established an end game of excluding everyone but themselves from wildlife resources. Now they are simply using anything and everything that they can as a foothold to muscle resident hunters out of the pie. This is what this is about - not actually anything to do with real impacts of fires on wildlife. It's just a convenient opportunity for them to hammer at their agenda again.

No different than the anti-gun crowd using any gun-related tragedy as a springboard to push their already-decided agenda. Long before these tragedies occur, they already have their responses and outrage formulated and they just simply wait for an event that they can use to leverage their position on.

Of course, if this was 100% about the fires and their impact then more residents would probably be okay forgoing a hunting season for the greater good of the wildlife. But that's simply not the reality of the situation. The fires are just being used as a pawn in a much larger picture.
Exellent post.

[Brambo]

And what do you propose??? K

Paint us all with the same brush, giving a different race different rights will only create hate.
No more of this special treatment.

[Mosin]

They can go kiss my ass!
I don't remember when I was now under the rule of any FN band???
I have no voting rights with them.....
My rules are passed from the government "we/I elect"...
not no FN pretend BS.

Keep in mind, the politicians you "vote" in don't give much of a shyt about you either...just saying

[Caribou_lou]

You got it Caribou_lou ...... a couple of outfitters have already pulled the pin and cancelled their season due to the fires.
If the complete territorial ban takes place it’s ALL SHUT DOWN.

Kawdy Outfitters posting pics on Instagram of Moose from this year already. More to come? We will see

[Deadshot]

Lots more to come.
Business as usual.
Tons of “want to be” Tahltan territory unaffected by fires.

[browningboy]

Who cares what they say, they aren’t the BC government..

[Rackmastr]

Who cares what they say, they aren’t the BC government..

The BC Government cares what they say.....so pretty significant I'd say

[Avalanche123]

The BC Government cares what they say.....so pretty significant I'd say

Agreed. Don't take the Talthan request lightly, especially with this current gov't.

[Jack Russell]

The BC Government cares what they say.....so pretty significant I'd say

Now one should ask themselves, "why does the BC Gov't care about what they say?" Find the proverbial head of the trail. Why are the politicians so keen to bend over backwards for FN reconciliation? I don't have the full answer but only parts of it. I am in search of these answers - then we can formulate a plan from there.

[338win mag]

Who cares what they say, they aren’t the BC government..
Resident hunters should care about what they say because if you read between the lines its.....
Guide outfitters are allowed and FN are allowed but, resident hunters are requested to not hunt. This is where the rubber hits the road,,,,if an outfitter has its clients booked for various hunts....are they going to cancel the hunts because of a request? If the area is still huntable then why would they??
If a resident hunter is going hunting in a huntable area then why would they cancel their plans?
I welcome traditional knowledge, combined with science, but.....lets walk the talk.

Things are going to get real ugly in this province.

[Piperdown]

Gents hold on a minute, wait till our very own Jazzy gets on this thread and spews her bs, then we will know all.....

[tigrr]

In my area the natives shot 5 cow moose. So by all estimates that would be 50 moose missing from the population 10 years down the line. If they were concerned about numbers, why shoot cows? Stewarts of the land, not.
Wonder if that chief pays himself more than the prime minister get paid each year.
It is 2018 not 1880. Ways have to be changed. Its about time the natives woke up and worked for something instead of freeloading on the taxpayers back. They don't appreciate what they don't work for.

[bearvalley]

Lots more to come.
Business as usual.
Tons of “want to be” Tahltan territory unaffected by fires.

Exactly.
There is no official shutdown.
The outfitters that have cancelled hunts are in the worst of the fire zone.
Seems to be a lot of drama being created on here due to a request for a hunting ban in a chunk of country that’s either burnt, burning or smoked out.
Reminds me of kids that got their hands slapped for reaching in the cookie jar.

In my opinion the areas that have seen the brunt of the fires should be closed....evac orders and road closures are seeing to that at present.
Easy vehicle access areas out of the burnt area should be looked at being limited due to the shift there will be in hunting pressure....maybe some ATV restrictions.
For all, both residents and guides.
Leave the back country that has seen little fire activity open, leave the airplanes flying.
A compromise along this line should work to keep everyone happy.

PS: anyone contemplating a fly in hunt had best plan for an extra couple of days or even a week longer at the lake of their choice due to the smoke complications the charters are dealing with at present.
The good thing about smoke is that the mosquitos and black flies aren’t bad.

[canishunter22-250]

In my opinion the areas that have seen the brunt of the fires should be closed....evac orders and road closures are seeing to that at present.
Easy vehicle access areas out of the burnt area should be looked at being limited due to the shift there will be in hunting pressure....maybe some ATV restrictions.
For all, both residents and guides.
Leave the back country that has seen little fire activity open, leave the airplanes flying.
A compromise along this line should work to keep everyone happy.



I think that's a pretty legitimate and reasonable response to the scenario and I don't think too many guys would argue with you.

Problem is, this is not what is being suggested at all. The suggestion was full closure of the entire area for what many believe is for the wrong reasons.

[bearvalley]

I think that's a pretty legitimate and reasonable response to the scenario and I don't think too many guys would argue with you.

Problem is, this is not what is being suggested at all. The suggestion was full closure of the entire area for what many believe is for the wrong reasons.

Agreed, the request was pretty broadbased when it came out.
What I posted as possible alterations to the request is being discussed where it matters.
Whats being put on here by some is like pissing in the wind.

[180grainer]

Give them an inch, they take a mile...:mad:

http://tahltan.org/tahltan-central-government-requests-immediate-hunting-ban-throughout-tahltan-territory/
Them first.........We are seeing more and more, demands that hunting be curtailed in a certain Band's territory. For good reasons or bad.....lead by example, them first.

[Avalanche123]

Agreed, the request was pretty broadbased when it came out.
What I posted as possible alterations to the request is being discussed where it matters.
Whats being put on here by some is like pissing in the wind.

This news is a bright light in a smokey tunnel. Good to hear our Gov't is hearing from all stakeholders.
With Doug D as the local MLA for the area and the Minister with this portfolio, I wasn't holding out a lot of hope.....

[boxhitch]

"Reminds me of kids that got their hands slapped for reaching in the cookie jar. "
"Whats being put on here by some is like pissing in the wind."

Being told to stay out of the cookie jar is one thing, being suggested is staying out of the kitchen or to some folk, the impression is to stay out of the house because there is a cookie jar.
Different strokes, it is the intraweb after all

[bearvalley]

Being told to stay out of the cookie jar is one thing, being suggested is staying out of the kitchen or to some folk, the impression is to stay out of the house because there is a cookie jar.
Different strokes, it is the intraweb after all

I guess if you ride under the brand of “maximum access and oppurtunity” the suggested ban is a tough pill to swallow.
Chads request is broad based and can stand some changing but at least he’s taking what’s happening to wildlife due to these fires into consideration.
Others are only worried about losing their access to that same wildlife.
As you say.......different strokes........

[browningboy]

If the government was a dog in BC the the tail would be wagging it, any special interest groups get attention and seems like all of them unite when required to get their way, and the normal working folks don’t have the time as they are busy raising families, so maybe the government may assume the majority of people agree with these groups as there is no opposition publicly?

[IronNoggin]

What was funny but is now just redundantly numbing is how you will always presume with a predictable bias.

25 years of working and living within FN society tells me you are wrong, again.
Keep on with your construct, ego is a difficult beast to contain, I don't expect you to control it.

Excellent!! Very To The Point, and as usual, Bang ON! https://bigshotsbc.ca/styles/default/xenforo/smilies/Pozitive.gif

Cheers & Thanks!
Nog

[bearvalley]

..... so maybe the government may assume the majority of people agree with these groups as there is no opposition publicly?

It would be interesting to hear the BCWF reaction to this ban request.
I know for a fact that they have a working MOU with the Tahltans.
The BCWF is the voice of resident hunters.

[Sitkaspruce]

If the government was a dog in BC the the tail would be wagging it, any special interest groups get attention and seems like all of them unite when required to get their way, and the normal working folks don’t have the time as they are busy raising families, so maybe the government may assume the majority of people agree with these groups as there is no opposition publicly?

Kind of like what will happen if we get PR passed in the fall!! Special interest groups will run this province and the working class will wonder what is happening….

Cheers

SS

[Pemby_mess]

Kind of like what will happen if we get PR passed in the fall!! Special interest groups will run this province and the working class will wonder what is happening….SS


Special interest groups like hunters? One could hope I suppose...............

[boxhitch]

Just how much do local politics play in situations involving indigens ?
So far the decisions have been handed down by the courts , both provincial and supreme court of canada
I doubt they have a party flag.......??

[338win mag]

Boxhitch
Local politics...we just saw the removal of the statue of the 1st prime minister of Canada with the roots being.. local politics. I have a feeling were going to see more of this sort of thing.

If a hunting ban were to be introduced then the BC government could simply do that, and extend it to the Tahltan, because if it were about conservation then thats the only reason I'm aware of whereby section 35 rights can be suspended.
But, its not about conservation, and if any FN band in this province/country did actually care about conservation then it would be a good thing to get control over your own hunters first, and quit dropping cow Moose for obvious reasons.

[Bugle M In]

Boxhitch
Local politics...we just saw the removal of the statue of the 1st prime minister of Canada with the roots being.. local politics. I have a feeling were going to see more of this sort of thing.

If a hunting ban were to be introduced then the BC government could simply do that, and extend it to the Tahltan, because if it were about conservation then thats the only reason I'm aware of whereby section 35 rights can be suspended.
But, its not about conservation, and if any FN band in this province/country did actually care about conservation then it would be a good thing to get control over your own hunters first, and quit dropping cow Moose for obvious reasons.

Exactly.
And when did I, a RH, a "non fn" fall under the rule of the FN????
And yes, it's not about conservation "from their point", because if it was, they would "suspend all their band members from
hunting"...not just many!
The real truth is, many of their members don't hunt, due to old age, or health issues.
So what do they do, they have the younger ones go out and "hunt for them"!
I know this for a fact!!
So yes, many of their band wont hunt, but the few that will, and always do, will shoot plenty of game for the entire band!
They are not about conservation, but rather about having their own "private hunting reserve" now.
If it goes that way, thru out the entire province, then so be it.
It will just turn guys like me into "efficient poachers"!
Is that what we want in the end????
Or do we have one rule, for everyone?
And if you break it, you "pay the same price"!!??

[bearvalley]

Exactly.
And when did I, a RH, a "non fn" fall under the rule of the FN????
And yes, it's not about conservation "from their point", because if it was, they would "suspend all their band members from
hunting"...not just many!
The real truth is, many of their members don't hunt, due to old age, or health issues.
So what do they do, they have the younger ones go out and "hunt for them"!
I know this for a fact!!
So yes, many of their band wont hunt, but the few that will, and always do, will shoot plenty of game for the entire band!
They are not about conservation, but rather about having their own "private hunting reserve" now.
If it goes that way, thru out the entire province, then so be it.
It will just turn guys like me into "efficient poachers"!
Is that what we want in the end????
Or do we have one rule, for everyone?
And if you break it, you "pay the same price"!!??

Bugle M In.......you’re gettin kind of cranked up.....or maybe a touch emotional!

I’m still waiting to hear what our resident hunter representatives have to say on this issue.
Or will they just stay silent....like with grizzly bear................

I’ll throw out the same question as they were asked at a recent stakeholder meeting.....Do you guys represent resident hunters or not?

[boxhitch]

You know they do Mike
So it becomes a question of what members want under the label of 'represent'.
We know what the policy statements will read in regard to items like representation, science based decisions, resident priority, allocation, access et al
those are laid out clearly and have limited impact
Beyond that, litigation and court challenges is the next step maybe. Who wants to go down that rabbit hole?

[Bugle M In]

Bugle M In.......you’re gettin kind of cranked up.....or maybe a touch emotional!

I’m still waiting to hear what our resident hunter representatives have to say on this issue.
Or will they just stay silent....like with grizzly bear................

I’ll throw out the same question as they were asked at a recent stakeholder meeting.....Do you guys represent resident hunters or not?

I guess your talking BCWF.
In that case, I will say that I know they are a Federation of RH.
I know they try to do their best to represent us, but, we both know they are established on the premise of standing
up for "Wildlife".
Trying to make sure, the best they can, that habitat is a concern and at the forefront, to maintain ungulate (hunting species)
numbers etc.
To help maintain hunter opportunity etc.
I know you have a bone to pick with them (basically everyone of your posts does bring them up, to be honest).
I am not blaming them.
I do know we need a Resident Hunter Association of some sort.
I know that the BCWF knows that too, but lets face it, they would probably lose membership (money), if that were the case.
I always said, maybe it's time to "rebrand the BCWF"??? (if possible)
That all being said, yup, I am "ramped up", and don't kid yourself, there are "lots of us" here in BC, and elsewhere.
Most don't come to this site, or don't bother with their input, but I hear it everywhere I go in the backcountry.
There are many, upon thousands, who are getting "pissed off".
As for the BCWF, I said my bit, and enough of that, as I wont get dragged into "bringing them down".
I know their are many there who care, spend their time to try and make a difference etc.
But they have been around a long time, and back when they started, "things were different".
At that time, it doid make sense to represent wildlife.
Someone needed to, and still do!!
The difference is, no one at that time saw the "hunting establishment, ie. hunters, becoming apart of the
endangered species list"!!
So, if you think they are no longer of value, then fine.
Let me know when you set up the "Resident Hunters of BC" Association, rather then just bring up a group who has
no choice in the matter.
Look at WSS, they are for sheep conservation, and although supported in funding by hunters, also can "not" represent hunters.
And the list goes on, and so does this "revolving bitching".
I am just saying, I won't be listening to the FN, until they fall under "the same rules".
Then I will work with them "hand in hand"!

[bearvalley]

And the list goes on, and so does this "revolving bitching".
I am just saying, I won't be listening to the FN, until they fall under "the same rules".
Then I will work with them "hand in hand"!

Your rules or their rules, Bugle M In?
It reads to me that the request for the proposed ban was put to “our” rule makers and to be implemented under “our” laws.
Now who’s doing the “bitching”?

[bearvalley]

You know they do Mike
So it becomes a question of what members want under the label of 'represent'.
We know what the policy statements will read in regard to items like representation, science based decisions, resident priority, allocation, access et al
those are laid out clearly and have limited impact
Beyond that, litigation and court challenges is the next step maybe. Who wants to go down that rabbit hole?

Bill, you’re fully aware some of the “reps” have already taken the litigation and court challenge approach...personally.
How successful were they?
If I remember correctly one of the “paid” employees took on the Region 4 guides.
Do you think he’s got the balls to take on the Tahltans because of a possible no hunting ban coming into play in a fire burnt region.
It seems to me not too many are looking at the big picture and the likely concern for wildlife in the parts of Tahltan territory that has burnt.
The only concern to many is not being to go there and put meat in the freezer.
Maximum access and oppurtunity has been driven in pretty deep.

[AgSilver]

I'm not siding with anyone as I see both sides of this coin and both are severely problematic for a variety of reasons.

But the one thing that I want to know from all of the people casting stones - how many of you have really and truly tried to understand the position of the FNs in modern Canadian society? If you can set aside your own views and how things affect you and just try to see their views and their history - you may approach this from a slightly different perspective.

We're all human and have wants ("needs" might be a stretch for many of us...but definitely wants) in regards to hunting and don't want to see our own privileges eroded, but when you go big picture on this - there is a lot more to it and it's just a symptom of a larger problem that NEEDS to be resolved before there is any real stability.

[silvertipp]

Bill, you’re fully aware some of the “reps” have already taken the litigation and court challenge approach...personally.
How successful were they?
If I remember correctly one of the “paid” employees took on the Region 4 guides.
Do you think he’s got the balls to take on the Tahltans because of a possible no hunting ban coming into play in a fire burnt region.
It seems to me not too many are looking at the big picture and the likely concern for wildlife in the parts of Tahltan territory that has burnt.
The only concern to many is not being to go there and put meat in the freezer.
Maximum access and oppurtunity has been driven in pretty deep.

I don't believe that is what a lot of us are saying at all
The problem is the keepers of the land are saying we will almost stop hunting
but we want all guides and sport hunters to stop hunting
and not just in the affected areas but many more
This is the main problem
i and many others would gladly agree to stop my hunt if in fact the rules were the same for everyone involved
The future of the moose population will require all users to work together and follow the same rules no more bs about entitlements or anything else

[bloody bellies]

I'm not siding with anyone as I see both sides of this coin and both are severely problematic for a variety of reasons.

But the one thing that I want to know from all of the people casting stones - how many of you have really and truly tried to understand the position of the FNs in modern Canadian society? If you can set aside your own views and how things affect you and just try to see their views and their history - you may approach this from a slightly different perspective.

We're all human and have wants ("needs" might be a stretch for many of us...but definitely wants) in regards to hunting and don't want to see our own privileges eroded, but when you go big picture on this - there is a lot more to it and it's just a symptom of a larger problem that NEEDS to be resolved before there is any real stability.

Really! the problem is our government discriminates , and FN know this, they use this to their advantage, tell me why I cant walk or drive down to the Fraser river and fish if I'm passing through or standing on the bank of a river that is their supposed land reserve, what harm is it for me to walk through the property and cast a few lines? but no, lets not try and all get along lets abuse the crap out of the system and keep people the white people out. this is the crap that gets me, well why don't we get some excavators, pile a mountain of dirt at the access point to my land that I pay taxes for, and do the same, because we don't do blockades, we try to get along, but it just keeps going and going and going, till someone snaps, that's the sad thing about the whole situation, lets all play fair in the sand box.

[338win mag]

Bugle M In.......you’re gettin kind of cranked up.....or maybe a touch emotional!

I’m still waiting to hear what our resident hunter representatives have to say on this issue.
Or will they just stay silent....like with grizzly bear................

I’ll throw out the same question as they were asked at a recent stakeholder meeting.....Do you guys represent resident hunters or not?
Do you blame guys for getting cranked up?
The bcwf only represents 40,000 hunters, (I googled it) those are the ones who are members of the bcwf, less than half of the resident hunters in BC, so more than half have no representation as you say. I am not a member nor have I been a member, although I have been thinking of it, I have no dog in the fight.

I think some Citizens of this province and country expect some form of representation for our elected officials to see to it that the laws which we have are upheld, ie: it is unlawful to interfere with a legal hunt. Before you start laughing too hard, this is who represents the majority of hunters in BC. If our elected officials want to throw us under the bus and they will, they already have, then they are going to be dealing with alot of pissed off citizens. Who is going to enforce any ban?? Its a request as of now, next time it will be an all out ban.

To what bugle said...And when did I, a RH, a "non fn" fall under the rule of the FN????

I would like to know the answer here too, see some of us can see whats going on and whats going to happen, or what they think its going to happen, someone is in for a rough ride.

[338win mag]

I'm not siding with anyone as I see both sides of this coin and both are severely problematic for a variety of reasons.

But the one thing that I want to know from all of the people casting stones - how many of you have really and truly tried to understand the position of the FNs in modern Canadian society? If you can set aside your own views and how things affect you and just try to see their views and their history - you may approach this from a slightly different perspective.

We're all human and have wants ("needs" might be a stretch for many of us...but definitely wants) in regards to hunting and don't want to see our own privileges eroded, but when you go big picture on this - there is a lot more to it and it's just a symptom of a larger problem that NEEDS to be resolved before there is any real stability.
The people who are "casting stones" are not casting stones, you simply misunderstand.
Remember this, some of the concerned citizens are Native hunters and understand fully the situation at hand, you just pulled the race card, this isn't about race.

[bearvalley]

Do you blame guys for getting cranked up?

I think some Citizens of this province and country expect some form of representation for our elected officials to see to it that the laws which we have are upheld, ie: it is unlawful to interfere with a legal hunt.....

...And when did I, a RH, a "non fn" fall under the rule of the FN????

I would like to know the answer here too, see some of us can see whats going on and whats going to happen, or what they think its going to happen, someone is in for a rough ride.

Chad Days request was to our elected official MLA Doug Donaldson.
There is zero interference going on with anyone’s legal hunt.
If a closure takes place it will be under our rule....the good old NDP/Greens....and I have no clue as to what blunder they will pull of in this decision.

As as for the statement that....”someone is in for a rough ride”........it’s a bit off base don’t you think.


The people who are "casting stones" are not casting stones, you simply misunderstand.
Remember this, some of the concerned citizens are Native hunters and understand fully the situation at hand, you just pulled the race card, this isn't about race.

Native hunters are only Native hunters within their own traditional territory....anywhere else they are just hunters, the same as you and me....so let’s not pull the race card.

And no, some people aren’t “casting stones”...they are throwing rocks.
Hopefully they don’t latch on to one that’s too big and drop it on their toes!

[338win mag]

Chad Days request was to our elected official MLA Doug Donaldson.
There is zero interference going on with anyone’s legal hunt.
If a closure takes place it will be under our rule....the good old NDP/Greens....and I have no clue as to what blunder they will pull of in this decision.

As as for the statement that....”someone is in for a rough ride”........it’s a bit off base don’t you think.



Native hunters are only Native hunters within their own traditional territory....anywhere else they are just hunters, the same as you and me....so let’s not pull the race card.

And no, some people aren’t “casting stones”...they are throwing rocks.
Hopefully they don’t latch on to one that’s too big and drop it on their toes!
Define "traditional territory" so everyone can understand.

[Norwestalta]

We can’t keep giving into the FN. they just keep wanting more and more. Something needs to be done!

Something will be done alright. The Muslims that are getting involved in politics more and more aren’t going to put up with the Indian bullshit. First Nations be warned.

[Pemby_mess]

Define "traditional territory" so everyone can understand.

"Careful what you wish for"

FN groups are in the process of defining that term legally. The outcome of that process is certainly not going to result in any less rights over the land than they enjoy currently.

[338win mag]

"Careful what you wish for"

FN groups are in the process of defining that term legally. The outcome of that process is certainly not going to result in any less rights over the land than they enjoy currently.
I thought it had already been defined, funny thing though, traditional territory is something that only gets the attention on this side of the rockies from our socalist governments. In one form or another the TT of the Cree is from Quebec to the rocky mtns at time of contact, I wonder if thats going to change too? or is it going to be a BC thing?

Territories changed greatly after Canada/BC were already governed by the Crown, as an example could be the Saulteax in north eastern BC and the Sioux on the plains. The Cree/Sioux/Saulteax all share in the respective resource peacefully at this time.

[Pemby_mess]

I thought it had already been defined, funny thing though, traditional territory is something that only gets the attention on this side of the rockies from our socalist governments. In one form or another the TT of the Cree is from Quebec to the rocky mtns at time of contact, I wonder if thats going to change too? or is it going to be a BC thing?

Territories changed greatly after Canada/BC were already governed by the Crown, as an example could be the Saulteax in north eastern BC and the Sioux on the plains. The Cree/Sioux/Saulteax all share in the respective resource peacefully at this time.

TT has been broadly defined for the purposes of legal claims, and only defined under binding judgement in a few cases where legal title has been awarded. I'll assume you have at least a superficial understanding in the legal difference between Southern land claims east of the Rockies, and those west of the Rockies, toward the Arctic. Those here and in the North, are unlikely to influence case law much for those in the East.

Those legal differences have nothing to do with the socialistic tendencies or lack thereof, between various provincial and territorial governments. Much more to do with old common law interpretations of what constitutes private property vs that owned by the monarch.

I will assume shared common ownership will actually be a commonly negotiated theme in the land settlements to follow. Ideally the crown negotiates a continuance of certain ownership interests, even where FN title prevails.

[338win mag]

TT has been broadly defined for the purposes of legal claims, and only defined under binding judgement in a few cases where legal title has been awarded. I'll assume you have at least a superficial understanding in the legal difference between Southern land claims east of the Rockies, and those west of the Rockies, toward the Arctic. Those here and in the North, are unlikely to influence case law much for those in the East.

Those legal differences have nothing to do with the socialistic tendencies or lack thereof, between various provincial and territorial governments. Much more to do with old common law interpretations of what constitutes private property vs that owned by the monarch.

I will assume shared common ownership will actually be a commonly negotiated theme in the land settlements to follow. Ideally the crown negotiates a continuance of certain ownership interests, even where FN title prevails.
I will put the left wing lobbiest on ignore if this confusion persists.^^^^

I wonder if we are headed to.... the FN who's territory a resident intends to hunt will need to ask and receive permission from the band to hunt said territory in the future, anywhere in BC, because I have a feeling that is where this is going.

[bearvalley]

This issue has been interesting and will be getting more so;

On July 27th, Harvey Andrusak, President BC Wildlife Federation wrote a letter to John Horgan stating that.....”The TCG have publicly called for a ban on resident hunting, offered a voluntary ban by Tahltan people but no ban on Guide Outfitters who guide non-resident hunters”.....

This is a flat out lie.

In Chad Days request to MLA Doug Donaldson it states...”The Tahltan Central Government is concerned about the safety of all hunters and is respectfully asking resident hunters and others to refrain from hunting throughout Tahltan Territory until such a time that the state of emergency has been lifted, the fires contained and the damage to the regions wildlife can be properly assessed.
Many of the local Tahltan families and hunters will refrain from hunting and are encouraging others to do the same.
The Tahltan homelands encompass BC’s Wildlife Management Units 6-19 to 26 and 7-52 respectively.”.......

President Days letter to the Province states...”The Tahltan Nation is requesting that the Province support our position by formulating a temporary hunting ban within Tahltan Territory for this hunting season”.

It does not get any clearer ....IF THE PROVINCIAL GOVERNMENT PLACES A BAN ON HUNTING IN TAHLTAN TERRITORY IT WILL BE FOR ALL LICENSED HUNTERS.
RESIDENT AND GUIDED NON-RESIDENT.

Harvey Andrusak and whoever within the BCWF is standing beside him in his statement are straight up liars.

[BgBlkDg]

I have Known Harvey for well over 40 years. I always found him to be a very honest and genuinely concerned professional biologist and one who risked his career to fight against major issues concerning wildlife and fisheries habitat and management.

I will stop here as I am inclined to become a bit irate on issues such as this............

[338win mag]

Good of them to be concerned for the safety of resident hunters, but thats not their job.

I presume the part that is questionable from what I can tell is the part about "no ban on guide outfitters who guide non-resident hunters" am I right?

who are these "others" that are referred to? do you know?
(asking resident hunters and others to refrain from hunting throughout Tahltan Territory)

[bearvalley]

Good of them to be concerned for the safety of resident hunters, but thats not their job.

I presume the part that is questionable from what I can tell is the part about "no ban on guide outfitters who guide non-resident hunters" am I right?

who are these "others" that are referred to? do you know?
(asking resident hunters and others to refrain from hunting throughout Tahltan Territory)

Lets put it this way....as a GO that works within Tahltan Territory I am fully aware that if a hunting closure takes place ...THE CLOSURE WILL BE FOR ALL LICENSED HUNTERS.

The BCWF has been doing a remarkably fine job lately of driving wedges between themselves and who should be working with them.

Like I said, what was put in that letter to Horgan was BS.

[Deaddog]

First. I doubt andusack wrote that release, more like a staff and it went out under his name That said it is incredible the falsehoods in the statement. It is pretty clear that the Tahltan are asking... not telling gov for a closure, which includes everyone , no where does it mention guide outfitter exemptions, secondly where in the Tahltan release does it even hint at blockades??? The Tahltan could of done what First Nations in the caribou have done..simply issue a closure notice in their territory, they did not , they chose a more respectful professional tact.

Perhaps what the fed could of done instead of just issuing a statement based on falsehoods and fear mongering is met with Chad day , outfitters etc and come up with a temporary closure on affected areas that all could support, or at least try to get to that resolution. Picking unnecessary fights with First Nations, cattlemen,outfitters seems a strange strategy in working in a collaborative manner for wildlife

[338win mag]

Now I need to know who the "others" are Mr Day refers to.

[Rackmastr]

First. I doubt andusack wrote that release, more like a staff and it went out under his name That said it is incredible the falsehoods in the statement. It is pretty clear that the Tahltan are asking... not telling gov for a closure, which includes everyone , no where does it mention guide outfitter exemptions, secondly where in the Tahltan release does it even hint at blockades??? The Tahltan could of done what First Nations in the caribou have done..simply issue a closure notice in their territory, they did not , they chose a more respectful professional tact.

Perhaps what the fed could of done instead of just issuing a statement based on falsehoods and fear mongering is met with Chad day , outfitters etc and come up with a temporary closure on affected areas that all could support, or at least try to get to that resolution. Picking unnecessary fights with First Nations, cattlemen,outfitters seems a strange strategy in working in a collaborative manner for wildlife

If I was a BCWF member I'd be asking a lot of questions in regards to the 'strategy' that is being taken, that's for sure....

[Bugle M In]

And again, who enforces that "ALL Tahtlan NOT BE HUNTING" should this closure come into effect.
That's what wrong, as thety state "many" but not "all".
AND, for once do and will CO enforce, and "charge" the same way???
NOPE!

[Jelvis]

No one can stop a Status Indian from hunting, not even a Chief -- That's why trying to blame the BC Gov't Ministry is wrong, they know what they're doing --
Jel -- that's why all these blaming this one and that one, is just something to keep your self busy, won't stop an Indian from hunting --
----------------------------Lots of Indians don't hunt, like regular family too expensive and most don't enjoy deer meat as much as chicken and beef. ---- no different
-------------------------------------------------------------- Indian bands have a certain amount of members who hunt for sustenance and help the old and shut ins --
-- a certain % of Indians, in bands, are known as hunter/warrior types ( outdoorsy ) Natural, leaders, enjoy hunting and fishing and hiking type stuff --
------stand up for the weak, help them out --

[338win mag]

No one can stop a Status Indian from hunting, not even a Chief -- That's why trying to blame the BC Gov't Ministry is wrong, they know what they're doing --
Jel -- that's why all these blaming this one and that one, is just something to keep your self busy, won't stop an Indian from hunting --
----------------------------Lots of Indians don't hunt, like regular family too expensive and most don't enjoy deer meat as much as chicken and beef. ---- no different
-------------------------------------------------------------- Indian bands have a certain amount of members who hunt for sustenance and help the old and shut ins --
Yes they can, they haven't because they dont want to, think about it. They could also keep stats but they dont want to do that either.

[338win mag]

If I was a BCWF member I'd be asking a lot of questions in regards to the 'strategy' that is being taken, that's for sure....
BCWF only represents about 40% of resident hunters, although those 40% deserve to know.

[BromBones]

I didn't sift through 10 pages so maybe this has been mentioned already.

Tahltan territory is claimed to be 95,000 square kilometers.

Right around 140 square kilometers of that burned in wildfires. Less than 1% of the territory, yet they want a complete ban? The math makes zero sense but the reasoning is obvious.

This is 100% an excuse to keep resident hunters out and nothing to do with wildlife concerns. Like the magical cow moose that was shot and left a few years ago on the Klappan which was the trigger for blockades, yet no photos existed and no report went to COs. Any excuse.

As far as Tahltan members not hunting, bullshit. The people displaced from Telegraph and the ones who left Dease because of the smoke have been living on donated food and resources and it's put a strain on the local communities. Houses were lost and I imagine some freezers thawed from power outages. Peak fishing season was interrupted. Any gardens that would have been harvested probably dried up. It's a bad situation when winter is only a couple months away.

They will be depending on wild game meat very heavily this year, and rightly so. I know I would be.

But just don't feed us a line of crap about Tahltan not hunting this year. This is about keeping resident hunters out because Tahltan members will be more dependent on wild game than they have for a long time, and don't want any competition. That's legitimate reasoning on their part, just don't BS about the intentions when 95% of us can see through it.

[Jelvis]

They can't off a rez ok on their Rez they could try -- - but don't get mixed up. Way too many things to know first -
-- Some Chiefs hunt, some don't, some members do some don't
Jel --

[338win mag]

Right on Brombones, I hope 95% can see through the bs, and the request isn't very clear either...my bs meter is going off.
This is going to spread throughout the entire province I figure unless convinced otherwise, any reason for a closure and they will get the support from the socialist government, every anti and all their pals who derive their cunning in the most deceptive of ways, we call that guile.

[Gateholio]

If I was a BCWF member I'd be asking a lot of questions in regards to the 'strategy' that is being taken, that's for sure....

Meh, it’s the same few members here always pouncing on any opportunity to start BCWF drama. They seem to be more interested in the drama than the actual issues.

[Rackmastr]

Meh, it’s the same few members here always pouncing on any opportunity to start BCWF drama. They seem to be more interested in the drama than the actual issues.


More of a general statement, and one that I don't think a lot of current members really fully understand right now. I'm far from anyone who would be labelled as that, and would just really want to know what the general direction to deal with the 'actual issues' are. No harm meant, just would be concerned with knowing as there sure seems to be a lot of confusion these days.

[boxhitch]

BCWF only represents about 40% of resident hunters, although those 40% deserve to know.Let us know what you find out with your queries, tia

[Gateholio]

Ha, wasn't talking about you. :)

[338win mag]

Let us know what you find out with your queries, tia
I dont have any queries.

[338win mag]

Sooooo, request to ban resident hunters, treaties that can screw resident hunters, residents getting screwed out of fishing privilage, BC residents getting screwed over for employment (see pipeline thread) waiting for the other shoe to drop.....priceless.

[Rackmastr]

Sooooo, request to ban resident hunters, treaties that can screw resident hunters, residents getting screwed out of fishing privilage, BC residents getting screwed over for employment (see pipeline thread) waiting for the other shoe to drop.....priceless.

What about non-resident hunters or just hunters in general, rather than using the term 'resident' in front of everything....

[338win mag]

What about non-resident hunters or just hunters in general, rather than using the term 'resident' in front of everything....
Your right sorry about that, I figure non residents differently.

[Rackmastr]

Your right sorry about that, I figure non residents differently.

Understood. I hope that one day we can scrub the 'resident hunter' term that seems to get used and over-used....likely a dream lol

[bearvalley]

What about non-resident hunters or just hunters in general, rather than using the term 'resident' in front of everything....
Thanks Rackmastr....some don’t seem to get that hunting rules & regulations apply the same to all.

[338win mag]

Thanks Rackmastr....some don’t seem to get that hunting rules & regulations apply the same to all.
I also think that you are already representing non-resident hunters just fine. With that said, respectfully, why dont you give a simple briefing as to where those similarities are between non resident/resident?

[bearvalley]

I also think that you are already representing non-resident hunters just fine. With that said, respectfully, why dont you give a simple briefing as to where those similarities are between non resident/resident?
338win mag, if you haven’t figured out by now that a hunter is a hunter regardless of being a BC resident, an Albertan or from another country..... then I would say you’ve missed out the boat as to what a hunter really is yourself.
Thats the problem when dealing with fictional names on the Inteweb....you don’t know if your talking to a “real” hunter or not.

[338win mag]

338win mag, if you haven’t figured out by now that a hunter is a hunter regardless of being a BC resident, an Albertan or from another country..... then I would say you’ve missed out the boat as to what a hunter really is yourself.
Thats the problem when dealing with fictional names on the Inteweb....you don’t know if your talking to a “real” hunter or not.
Thats not an answer, but thats your answer, but hey I'm just one guy.

[Bugle M In]

Bearvalley, I will give you an apology (in a moment) but first have a few things I want to get off my chest, not only to you,
but a few others out here on this site.

Ever seen a dog chase it tail?, I have, and only the only thought that ever comes to mind is "WTF"!
A useless endeavor, where the dog never accomplishes anything, and if even he does catch it's tail, so what, what has it
achieved...sweet F'ALL.
All it did was burn up some energy, for a useless cause, and nothing to gain.
Worst part, it will continue to do it over and over again, day after day!?

That's what I see.
To the point that I don't even glance any longer at some members posts, as I already know it's like watching that dog/tail.
Continuously looking to go after something in the past is useless.
There are a few like that here.
Then there are others, like FD who could use a little help in "wording/etiquette" at times.
GoatGuy was even worse.
Don't get me wrong, I like their knowledge that they have to include in discussions.
Then there are folks, like Dana (which I was glad he was back, like is knowledge on stuff, but hoped that he had "grown up"
since the last departure....nope)
Then their is Jelly, who likes his riddles and twisted poetry, but he can just put spin on the issue, to get people riled.
(salt in the wound you could say, yet being slightly oblivious to how many out there are starting to feel).
Not what I would call a very good "phycologist" for the future of all in BC.
Don't get me wrong, I do appreciate peoples opinion, and the side of fences they satnd on, which there are several fences for sure in the yard.
That being said, I do apologize when I use the term RH, and do not include GO's and their customers.
Yes, I think some GO's are reall pricks, but then again, so are some RH and non RH, but on average, most are great people.
Lets' start there guys.
That whole GOABC/RH dilemma has had more consequences then just what was allocated.
The divide still continues on even today, and so obvious on this site.
Sad part, the ship has left the harbor, and where sitting here blaming each other for "being late/ not included".
Keep it up, it s achieving so much, don't you all think!!???
Whether we are a RH/GO/non RH, we better put down the swords, whether you think your past rants are wrong or right.
There is a new war, and so far, we have had are asses handed to us, in each of those battles.
We are being excluded, with basically no consultation, no voice AND worse, "we are being BLAMED for the problems"???
Don't you all see that, no matter if your are RH, BCWF member, GO, or non RH.
Somehow it's are fault for all these problems, and thus the lack of inclusion any longer!
And in a way, we are to blame, cause we just keep fighting "ourselves" IE. CHASING OUR TAILS.
So, I ask to ask yourselves, are you part of being the solution, or are you one of the problems???
Unfortunately, it's not in my DNA, my knowledge or even my health, to get some kind of Association together.
If I could, I would, as if it doesn't happen now (and it takes time), it is then "too late".
An Association between RH/GO's/Non RH has to be developed.
Maybe funding not only thru members, but from some big guns, like the NRA.
(Lets face it, as every opportunity is lost, I think less and less about a new rifle, or even buying bullets to fire at the range,
let alone hunting)
I know I have talked this way before, and it takes all of about "one post" for the "tail chasing" to continue, so I suspect it will.
Like they say, "can't teach a dog a new trick", so I guess its true.
OR, you can lead a horse to water, but if it doesn't want to drink, it won't.
Anyone up for a change?????
Or, do you think doing the same old shit is going to work.
I say that to all of us.
Can the BCWF members think it "is working"?, the model/platform that they are using?
Do the GO's think they will have a better voice on their own??, even if their clients generally come here for trophies, rather then meat??
Do you think, you, as an RH, will have a voice, if you don't unite under some type of "Organization" (me included).
Something to think about, isn't it!
I am sure I have just kicked the Hornets nest against some "forum heavyweights" on here, but, so what.
I am enjoying the Elk hunting FB site, and the Hunting FB sites anyways.
Just a bunch of people there who "love what they do".
Here's to hoping we get it together...all of us.

[the force]

Apologize if I missed it, don't have the time right now to read everything. Can someone please provide names/addresses for which politicians to write a letter to, to voice the concerns of serious fear of hunters not being able to hunt on "public land" in the not so distant future? If there is any template-ish type letters out there please feel free to point me in their direction as well. Thx.

[Bugle M In]

Apologize if I missed it, don't have the time right now to read everything. Can someone please provide names/addresses for which politicians to write a letter to, to voice the concerns of serious fear of hunters not being able to hunt on "public land" in the not so distant future? If there is any template-ish type letters out there please feel free to point me in their direction as well. Thx.

Well, firstly, take a look at post #48 for a template http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/showthread.php?147080-5-12B-shut-down-for-motor-vehicles/page5

Then, take a look if your mla for your riding is an elected ndp, or, if it is someone who will be running for the ndp next election who may not have been voted in at the last election.
Either way, that is who you send it to.
And as well, George Heyman's office.

Now, if I can add my 2 cents to this.
Yes, you can write "what" is upsetting you, for sure, BUT, here's another way to add to these letters.
You tell that MLA (elected or running) that you "will NOT be voting for them" come next election (due to your concerns that you have expressed (I would start with not voting for them first, then move on to reasons.)
Also tell them it is due to their parties platform, but more importantly, due to George Heyman, and his direction and exclusion of RH and GO's of BC.
Also, end by telling them that you are sending a letter to their adversary in the Liberal party of your same riding, of your concerns, and why you would chose them, IF and as long, as they support you.
If that mla (ndp) wins, so what, they won't remember your letter anyways.
But, should they lose, well then, your letter might pop back up in their mind at that point upon reflection.
AND, by mentioning George Heyman, as the main figure for this loss. they will also be thinking of blaming him as well!!.
Then you Write Heyman, and you tell him that you just told your ndp mla in your riding that you won't be voting for them
come next election, due to "his actions" as of late.
You can also state to him exactly what it is that disturbs you in there, but, he needs to start becoming aware that his actions
can be causing a "negative impact" on other members of his party come election time!!
It's your vote that they care about, and then the reasons why.
And if a member in their party is running rogue, and effects them, they may just start to listen!?

[Bugle M In]

One other thing to think about with George Heyman folks.
One day, Horgan will lose, which means the ndp will need a new leader for the party.
Carol JAmes has already been, so I doubt she would be the leader.
So, who does that leave as experienced front runners???
Ebby and Heyman come to mind.
Imagine if Heyman is not just a minister, but one day the leader!! (and if they got in!)
He needs to be shown as one of the ministers/mla inside that party, who helped "lose the elections for them"!!
Not just Horgan, but Heyman as well.
That's how you relate the letters to your local ndp mla's!
Blame Heyman for their lose in the election coming, and they wont forget!!

[338win mag]

I can't let this go....
After thinking about the question posed by rackmaster...."What about non-resident hunters or just hunters in general, rather than using the term 'resident' in front of everything...."
A fair question that really deserves a better answer than what I gave, maybe not a better answer, more specific.

I have always supported non-resident hunters and have never opposed them.
I support the industry and the G/O should get their fair share, its an important economic driver and my family was guiding in this country before Canada was a Nation and before BC was a province.
In the situation we have here in this province as of today I just dont care about "non resident hunters" and "hunters" as I do for resident hunters.
I care more about the resident hunters who have built this province in a number of ways, and contributed for multi generations, and quite honestly dont see the connection,,, and I'm not the only one.

Bearvalley said.
338win mag, if you haven’t figured out by now that a hunter is a hunter regardless of being a BC resident, an Albertan or from another country..... then I would say you’ve missed out the boat as to what a hunter really is yourself.
Thats the problem when dealing with fictional names on the Inteweb....you don’t know if your talking to a “real” hunter or not.

OK....If there aren't any non resident hunters the FN wont have anyone to guide when they own all the industry so they have a different thought process in regards to resident, non resident, and the idea is to screw over resident hunters for the best results possible and its likely the entire industry would like to do the same, even if they have some similiarities and are all hunters.

[bearvalley]

I can't let this go....

OK....If there aren't any non resident hunters the FN wont have anyone to guide when they own all the industry so they have a different thought process in regards to resident, non resident, and the idea is to screw over resident hunters for the best results possible and its likely the entire industry would like to do the same, even if they have some similiarities and are all hunters.

You started off with a decent post.....you probably should have let it go before it went into this dribble.

For starters only a handful of Tahltans own their own individual guide territories.
The Tahltans do not plan to “own the whole industry”.

The Tahltans, local residents, guides and conservation groups have committed to wildlife within Tahltan Territory.
In the last three years close to 3/4 of a million bucks has been put into wildlife collaring projects, health sampling...etc.
That money and the work it funds is an investment for all....resident hunters, local First Nations, guided hunters and others that do not hunt.
It is for the good of wildlife.

You seem to forget....or maybe it’s been programmed in.....most Guide Outfitters are “BC residents” and most are BC resident hunters.
There’s a stigma that all guided hunters are non-residents....you’d have a damn tuff time telling one of my clients that lives in Prince George, Kelowna or Richmond that you have it any different than them.

Too many, like yourself have been drinking the Kool-Aid.....or sucking out of the poison pail.
The request by the TCG was put out due to the concern they have for wildlife......as usual the bitching seems to be due to the concern about something someone won’t get.

[338win mag]

Fair enough Bearvalley, I dont dispute anything you say, except the drinking of the "kool aid"
I dont drink from anothers pail, that should be obvious by now.
I think resident hunters have put their share into wildlife initiatives too and frankly have been pleading for the province to put more of their money into various projects.

[Mik]

It reads “respectfully asking resident hunters and others to refrain from hunting.....”
Don’t turn it into a whitey resident hunter versus guides and First Nations pissing match.
...Why Not....Does the truth hurt? i mean the letter does ask for all to kinda not hunt but we know that not all will stop

[hawk-i]

Well just to be clear, I respectively decline their request and will continue to hunt my traditional hunting areas!

[boxhitch]

......The request by the TCG was put out due to the concern they have for wildlife......as usual the bitching seems to be due to the concern about something someone won’t get.If someone really wants to narrow down the turmoil to a sharp edge, there are only two sides to the issue.

There are those that want to blame regulated hunters for the problems with wildlife,
and then there are those that have a view that the hunting regulations are the fail safe stop gap to overharvest
and that regulated hunters truly have little impact on populations, believing that the regs allow for the
sustainable harvest of the surplus portion of the game, the entire premise of the antler/tine/curl/duration restrictions.

Those that keep blaming regulated hunters want less opportunity, less access, less harvest, which all will lead to less hunters.
Those that have confidence in the regulations to control numbers and ratios to maximize recruitment will argue against what they see as unjust impositions and restrictions and exclusions.

Then there is the two sided coin on whether science and fact can be trusted, or whether sound reasoning is just the koolaid

Neither of these two coins has a particular label to each side in the way of rh or fn or nrh

mho )

[bearvalley]

If someone really wants to narrow down the turmoil to a sharp edge, there are only two sides to the issue.

There are those that want to blame regulated hunters for the problems with wildlife,
and then there are those that have a view that the hunting regulations are the fail safe stop gap to overharvest
and that regulated hunters truly have little impact on populations, believing that the regs allow for the
sustainable harvest of the surplus portion of the game, the entire premise of the antler/tine/curl/duration restrictions.

Those that keep blaming regulated hunters want less opportunity, less access, less harvest, which all will lead to less hunters.
Those that have confidence in the regulations to control numbers and ratios to maximize recruitment will argue against what they see as unjust impositions and restrictions and exclusions.

Then there is the two sided coin on whether science and fact can be trusted, or whether sound reasoning is just the koolaid

Neither of these two coins has a particular label to each side in the way of rh or fn or nrh

mho )

And therefor....we have what we have.....a finger pointing sinkhole of mis-information, misinterpretation, mistrust, manipulation and the list goes on.
No wonder every time we take a step ahead we slide back.

[Jordan f.]

Honest question.

They say "many will refrain from hunting and are encouraging others to do the same".

Now my question is...can a band legally cancel hunting to their own members? Or would the individuals right to hunt as a status FN over-ride the bands decision?

[Jelvis]

Hey Jordan remember an Indian Reserve has members - most have Status Cards, but some have no card. A Reserve is classed as Private property -- like yours is.
So,
a. If Indian has a Status Number he or she can hunt forever - no one can stop them on Crown land not even a Chief.
b. If Native has no number can still hunt forever on the actual reserve land he or she is from, but Chief and council can make laws where to shoot on actual rez land.
c. So a person must have an actual Status Number registered in Ottawa to be able to actually sustenance hunt or hunt for that and a bigger animal if wanted.
d. A person who is First Nation or Native and has no Status number need to follow all BC hunting Regs like any other person who has no card. When off Reserve land.
e. The difference is thee Crown Land and other private land, which makes a lot of options available for either person if they know the local deer herds.

Jel Look up Willy Alphonse Jr. case about hunting for a Status Indian, a court case he won with all judges involved explains and clears up a lot of assumptions
------Put it on here if you can cut and paste!

[Piperdown]

Boy there are a few on here that seem to know everything to bad they don't step up, maybe run the fed

[Jordan f.]

Hey Jordan remember an Indian Reserve has members - most have Status Cards, but some have no card. A Reserve is classed as Private property -- like yours is.
So,
a. If Indian has a Status Number he or she can hunt forever - no one can stop them on Crown land not even a Chief.
b. If Native has no number can still hunt forever on the actual reserve land he or she is from, but Chief and council can make laws where to shoot on actual rez land.
c. So a person must have an actual Status Number registered in Ottawa to be able to actually sustenance hunt or hunt for that and a bigger animal if wanted.
d. A person who is First Nation or Native and has no Status number need to follow all BC hunting Regs like any other person who has no card. When off Reserve land.
e. The difference is thee Crown Land and other private land, which makes a lot of options available for either person if they know the local deer herds.

Jel Look up Willy Alphonse Jr. case about hunting for a Status Indian, a court case he won with all judges involved explains and clears up a lot of assumptions
------Put it on here if you can cut and paste!

So legally speaking. All the Chief can legally do, is ask his band members (that are status) not to hunt this area. But there isn't a legal way for him to enforce it. Kinda puts an interesting spin on this. Never new that. Thanks for the info!

[S.W.A.T.]

So legally speaking. All the Chief can legally do, is ask his band members (that are status) not to hunt this area. But there isn't a legal way for him to enforce it. Kinda puts an interesting spin on this. Never new that. Thanks for the info!

The members are supposed to respect the bands decisions. If the act on their own accord they might be subject to discipline inside the band like to community service for elders or older members. But again no legal requirement more so moral.

[boxhitch]

And therefor....we have what we have.....a finger pointing sinkhole of mis-information, misinterpretation, mistrust, manipulation and the list goes on.
No wonder every time we take a step ahead we slide back.
Usually instigated by either the naive or the non-believers , or those with opposing agendas
but it doesn't take much effort to see through the smoke

[boxhitch]

Boy there are a few on here that seem to know everything to bad they don't step up, maybe run the fedNothing to do with the fed in particular, its just choices people make
its not rocket surgery, easy to get to the truth

[Bugle M In]

So, come back to see that the dogs are still chasing their tails...hmmmm…
and meantime, some fn somewhere in this province, are sitting around (not arguing amongst each other), but rather
discussing the next set of closures they want.
(all while eating all that nicely "gill netted" sockeye to boot!!….lol)