Atv's closed beginning of the end

[curt]

So I'm guessing they have used the fires from last year as the excuse to ban atv in basically the entire Bonaparte plateau what a crock of shit NDP initiative whats next!?!? So instead of quads guys will be using full size 4x4's to rip up the back country......really nice of them to announce it after everyone put in there LEH draws too that's dirty I'm glad I didnt put in for that area. I certainly hope BCWF is fighting this once they impose a ban like this they will never retract it

[browningboy]

I hope something gives soon, it’s supposed to be a temporary measure until the burn thickens up? Now there’s mushroom buyers and pickers all over the place, funny that I see port a potties way out back there, you know they’ll leave a mess.

[Ltbullken]

Guess I better get a Tracker...

But I do support some restrictions but whole MU's I think is a bit much. I'd like to know the justification for that. Anyone talk to the regional biologist?

[curt]

once they implement a restriction like that they wont ever remove it its not necessary its targeting just hunters if the environment and the critters are the real reason there would be a total vehicle band recreational atv ers could potential upset the habits of the wildlife trying to re establish the burnt area as well its a crock of shit that entire area is not burnt all this is is a big FU to all the hunters via the NDP!

[Jelvis]

N.o D.riving P.eriod
Jel

[250 sav]

Guess I better get a Tracker...

But I do support some restrictions but whole MU's I think is a bit much. I'd like to know the justification for that. Anyone talk to the regional biologist?

The group that is exempt from the ATV ban pushed for it

[REMINGTON JIM]

I don't SEE the ATV ban EVER being lifted as they were going to put it on BEFORE the FIRE ever happened I got this info from some one who KNOWs ! :( RJ

[horshur]

Guess I better get a Tracker...

But I do support some restrictions but whole MU's I think is a bit much. I'd like to know the justification for that. Anyone talk to the regional biologist?
My neighbour did....it’s an issue of enforcement. The tangle of rds from all mentioned mu’s Is countless. Deal is this could be a boon to all hunters if managed carefully. If the machine can get some traction and run the hunting in all adjacent regions and more will improve. So deal with it. It is in place cause they are managing people cause they have to. Ever try the herd a cat?

[curt]

the machine..............doesn't know its ass from a hole in the ground this is yet another step to OVER ENFORCE and eliminate hunting.......so what happens next adjacent regions will get over pressured with ATV use because they cant hunt where they normally do so they restrict that area too next thing you know the entire province will be banned its ridiculous

[HarryToolips]

So I'm guessing they have used the fires from last year as the excuse to ban atv in basically the entire Bonaparte plateau what a crock of shit NDP initiative whats next!?!? So instead of quads guys will be using full size 4x4's to rip up the back country......really nice of them to announce it after everyone put in there LEH draws too that's dirty I'm glad I didnt put in for that area. I certainly hope BCWF is fighting this once they impose a ban like this they will never retract it
BCWF have proven that they don't stand up for hunters, so don't hold your breath....

[HarryToolips]

Fire up the chainsaws folks, start cutting dead standing across roads and trails in those regions...if we can't use em at least make it more work for them to do so.....

[Jelvis]

If there is a forest fire in that area and you block access roads with dead standing and lay it down across
Jel -- think can't put fire out as good --

[Wild one]

Fire up the chainsaws folks, start cutting dead standing across roads and trails in those regions...if we can't use em at least make it more work for them to do so.....

In my area that would accomplish nothing because 90% of people carry a chainsaw

You are welcome to come up my way and do it though it would take some work out of collecting firewood lol

[steel_ram]

Funny, when I started seeing everyone and their dog accessing remote back country on ATV's I thought that was "the beginning of the end."

[IslandWanderer]

Ban all hunting on those annoying atvs for anyone who doesn’t have a disability.

[Hublocker]

Funny how some guys seem to have their ass surgically attached to an ATV seat.

[Hank Hunter]

Here we go again. Hunters fighting hunters. Never fails on just about every issue and we wonder why our sport is threatened.

[scoutlt1]

Here we go again. Hunters fighting hunters. Never fails on just about every issue and we wonder why our sport is threatened.

Absolutely!

[srupp]

Hmm..other reasons for atv use..I personally tried accessing some bear areas this spring after I had sold my atv..scuffed up my truck pretty bad trying to get into these back remote honey holes. Have new machine coming this month.
Cheers
Steven

[Piperdown]

Ban all hunting on those annoying atvs for anyone who doesn’t have a disability.

Well looky who's back, that was a quick month, been fairly quite here i am sure things will change now :)

[curt]

100% Hank I use my atv to get into country and hike I'm not a road hunter but i prefer to leave my truck in camp......Hank is bang on this is the reason we always lose any battles because we are not united.......... if we cant use quads ban horses too then even playing field for everyone.
Here we go again. Hunters fighting hunters. Never fails on just about every issue and we wonder why our sport is threatened.

[RackStar]

Always the guys who can’t get quads flapping away. If someone threw them a quad for free we all know you would take it. an atv is like a multi tool, many purposes it can serve. Last years deer hunt the ATV stayed at home, I park my truck set up camp and the truck doesn’t move for a week. Other areas and hunts the quad gets used for getting back into areas a truck can’t to then start my hunt. Why bicker back and forth?

[REMINGTON JIM]

Ban all hunting on those annoying atvs for anyone who doesn’t have a disability.

Should BAN you from being on Here and Hunting ! RJ

[notyalc]

Always the guys who can’t get quads flapping away. If someone threw them a quad for free we all know you would take it. an atv is like a multi tool, many purposes it can serve. Last years deer hunt the ATV stayed at home, I park my truck set up camp and the truck doesn’t move for a week. Other areas and hunts the quad gets used for getting back into areas a truck can’t to then start my hunt. Why bicker back and forth?

exactly right on point!!

[Pemby_mess]

Here we go again. Hunters fighting hunters. Never fails on just about every issue and we wonder why our sport is threatened.

I've never really understood this attitude. Acknowledgement and subsequent discussion of the differing perspectives between hunters should be seen as healthy, not harmful.

Here's a hypothetical:

"I'm a hunter who also happens to own a helicopter. I think that I should be able to hunt from my machine. If you disagree, you're limiting my individual freedom to hunt with the method I choose, and that's something all hunters should be angry about."

you on board with that? Do you support my right to airborne hunts, simply because it's an issue effecting hunters in general, and that I'm a hunter with the means and inclination to carry it out?

There are two issues here, not one: motorized access, and how that influences hunting methods. The rules regarding the quad ban in the cariboo-chilcotin are blending the two together in a way that confuses the independent points of discussion. We have nonsense ineffectual rules, precisely because the very people that should know the most about the outcome of those rules, often don't tease apart the relevant meeting minutes while engaged with preliminary discussion.

There are many hunters that also happen to be ORV users/enthusiasts. However, make no mistake, those are two seperate sets of interests. Despite that they may occaisionally coalesce, what benefits one group may be fatal for the other, and vice versa. Although, in the case of this particular pairing of interests, it's usually a unidirectional relationship.

[Pemby_mess]

Always the guys who can’t get quads flapping away. If someone threw them a quad for free we all know you would take it. an atv is like a multi tool, many purposes it can serve. Last years deer hunt the ATV stayed at home, I park my truck set up camp and the truck doesn’t move for a week. Other areas and hunts the quad gets used for getting back into areas a truck can’t to then start my hunt. Why bicker back and forth?

What a quad can do, a helicopter can do better. It's really a very effective machine, and everyone knows if I gave you a free helicopter, you'd use it too. I work long and hard so I can afford my multi-faceted airborne hunting tool. This August I want to go for a northern dall sheep hunt. I really can't afford to take a week off work to hike in and set up an alpine camp. It's really quite elitist to ban me from using my helicopter - just hunters against hunters. ;-)

[scoutlt1]

Best to just ban everything.

If you want to hunt, you will only be allowed to "harvest" a game animal by choking it out with your bare hands...

[IslandWanderer]

I actually use two choppers. One for me and my Gear, and one to haul my atv.

[scoutlt1]

How about we just stop getting ****ing regulated to death.

Maybe us responsible hunters get left alone, and the pieces of sh*t that break the laws are properly dealt with???

Sometimes I road hunt with my truck. Often I hunt on foot. Sometimes I hunt on my quad. Occasionally I hunt from a blind. Sometimes I hike for miles.

I wish these f***ers would stop coming up with ways to restrict my right to hunt....

[Pemby_mess]

Best to just ban everything.

If you want to hunt, you will only be allowed to "harvest" a game animal by choking it out with your bare hands...

what makes that the best solution? Is anybody advocating something like that?

oh, you're using sarcasm:

well lets ban nothing then! Every tool man has ever devised is fair game.

Any better?

[Pemby_mess]

I wish these f***ers would stop coming up with ways to restrict my right to hunt....

Does that mean I can count you in for my airborne sheep hunt petition?

[Hank Hunter]

Not sure what a helicopter has to do with accessing forest service roads on an atv? As usual the grandiloquence is strong from our our resident expert on everything.
Enjoy your hypothetical helihunt.

[Pemby_mess]

Not sure what a helicopter has to do with accessing forest service roads on an atv? As usual the grandiloquence is strong from our our resident expert on everything.
Enjoy your hypothetical helihunt.

"grandiloquence" - lol - love that word, and well played. I'm going to try to use it more often myself!

That's exactly it, you've identified the logical fallacy - lack of relevance. You were trying to make the case that a hunter advocating for a restriction on motorized hunters in a specific geographic region, for a specified purpose was in fact executing an attack against the interests of hunters in general.

I'm simply using the helicopter to illustrate the extension of that same reasoning process out to a slightly different machine that you may not have been thinking about. In fact, it could be argued that replacing ATV access with helicopter access would result in less habitat degradation. So why don't we do that?

Do you support my right to hunt sheep from a helicopter? Yes or no? If no, than why are you attacking the interests of hunters?

[Keta1969]

Was just up in some of those areas and I can see why they would want to keep quads off some of the ground. However there are not enought CO's to enforce partial closures so they close the whole area
It is not closed to hunting which is a good thing. Quads have there place but guys are always pushing further into new areas, building trails into meadows etc. As usual the few will ruin it for all. For some it seems it's more about where I can get my quad to than the hunting. Have no problem with responsible quad use, but if you can't pack the animal out to where you left the quad don't shoot it.

[steel_ram]

Best to just ban everything.

If you want to hunt, you will only be allowed to "harvest" a game animal by choking it out with your bare hands...

Maybe a little too far but your closer to the truth than you may think. Hunting and fishing.

There are hunters and the new breed of "mechanized high tech hunter's". Fishing? Even little trout boats have state of the art electronic's. Boats out in the ocean the same, plus power everything! Might as well be commercial. I guess it's just human nature to try to find short cuts, but come on guys, aren't we shooting ourselves in the foot.

[boblly1]

temporary my a-- just like income tax right. Just until the country gets back on it`s feet after the war. Guess what we must never have stood up again and never will according the powers that be

[Jelvis]

ATV dealers in BC are going to be HOT! to TROT!
Jelly -- sales will decline as well -- ?

[Big Lew]

I can understand the reasoning behind restricting motorized vehicles, especially ATVs, in areas that
are in trouble, either by overhunting, harassing wildlife, or harming sensitive environment. I can also
understand why the whole area is closed instead of the more critical regions. As was pointed out, there's
just not enough COs to keep the necessary control. I do, however, think it will be a challenge to have
the ban reversed when things have improved. There are many on this site that use their machines responsibly,
but there are those that don't as well. When you add in the usually longer seasons of recreational ATV
use, especially when considering that the recreationalists are even more inclined to harass animals and to do
damage to sensitive areas, a "temporary " ban is the easiest way for the gov't to deal with it. Something has to
change though. With all the advances in electronic communication nowadays, word gets out very quickly if
it's noticed that hunters are having good success in a specific area...within a heartbeat, the place gets flooded with
hunters, most with ATVs, and all but wipe out that area's healthy population. Look what happened to the Tunkwa
Lake area the last couple of years. It also happened to the Whiteman Creek area and the Pinaus Lake area. At times
the forestry roads and spurs looked like downtown rush hour.

[butthead]

and there doing a lot of heavy strait up and down deactivation

[Ltbullken]

My neighbour did....it’s an issue of enforcement. The tangle of rds from all mentioned mu’s Is countless. Deal is this could be a boon to all hunters if managed carefully. If the machine can get some traction and run the hunting in all adjacent regions and more will improve. So deal with it. It is in place cause they are managing people cause they have to. Ever try the herd a cat?

What you say doesn’t make sense. Why shut down the entire region? There are lots of areas with restrictions. This is typical NDP blanket anti-hunter policy. Again what’s the justification? Is the environment being damaged, is access hurting game numbers? Was this raised as a regulation change for feedback? Anyone? Maybe there’s a good reason for it but this just seems like the NDP taking an opportunity to shit on hunters.

[horshur]

You can’t adequately enforce restrictions with that many access points..they would have closers on a hundred or more rds...go have a look on google earth and ask yourself how you could enforce those restrictions..how you could have proper signage..how to stop private access ect ect..it sucks. But the rational is reasonable.

[Wild one]

The true issue is the ban is on ATVs for hunting only But they claim it is to help habitat recover from fire. I am not buying this because would it not be wise to ban overall ATV use in the area if the goal was to help habitat recover?

Personally see this as an attack on hunters under a false reason

[Pemby_mess]

The true issue is the ban is on ATVs for hunting only But they claim it is to help habitat recover from fire. I am not buying this because would it not be wise to ban overall ATV use in the area if the goal was to help habitat recover?

Personally see this as an attack on hunters under a false reason

The issue is the ban is too narrow in its focus. It concentrates only on ATV mounted hunters and the impact they represent; not the rest of the impact the recreational atv's themselves represent. The improved sightlines provide hunters with an unprecedented advantage, and therefore the potential to overharvest recovering game populations. That in itself, combined with hundreds of miles of vehicular access, is a genuine reason to restrict ATV equipped hunters.

The increased potential for habitat damage is an other seperate issue. Some have probably already argued that if everybody sticks to the current ORV regulations, there won't be a problem in that regard. However, as has been comprehensively discussed already, ORV's are inadequately regulated as it is, and enforcement is wanting.

[Wild one]

The issue is the ban is too narrow in its focus. It concentrates only on ATV mounted hunters and the impact they represent; not the rest of the impact the recreational atv's themselves represent. The improved sightlines provide hunters with an unprecedented advantage, and therefore the potential to overharvest recovering game populations. That in itself, combined with hundreds of miles of vehicular access, is a genuine reason to restrict ATV equipped hunters.

The increased potential for habitat damage is an other seperate issue. Some have probably already argued that if everybody sticks to the current ORV regulations, there won't be a problem in that regard. However, as has been comprehensively discussed already, ORV's are inadequately regulated as it is, and enforcement is wanting.

With the issue being habitat why only target hunters on ATVs? Like you said should be all ATVs

Now I assume those who created this ban are of at least moderate intelligence so they realize that this ban is only impacting a small portion of ATV use in the area

So I would say the reasons given for the ban make a man ? true motivation for a hunter only ATV ban. If it was an all out ATV I could respect the reasons given but as it stands I smell BS

[horshur]

I see it here every fall..nearly zero activity on Rds.. dangerous cause the grass gets so high...and then comes hunting season..and it looks like a military operation...don't kid yourselves hunters are primarily Users of backcountry except in tourist areas.

[Wild one]

I see it here every fall..nearly zero activity on Rds.. dangerous cause the grass gets so high...and then comes hunting season..and it looks like a military operation...don't kid yourselves hunters are primarily Users of backcountry except in tourist areas.

You know the area better then I do so not going to doubt you

In my area recreational ATV use out ways hunting by a long shot is where my opinion comes from

[Jelvis]

All we can do with atv's now is go where we can and stay off where we can't. Obey the Ministry 100% under the Provincial Hunting Regulations.
Jelly Vis -- MU 3-28 for example is a no no now! for any atv -- check the Provincial Regs ---- this MU 3-28 is being patrolled already by some local hunters -- :neutral: -

[HappyJack]

The issue is the ban is too narrow in its focus. It concentrates only on ATV mounted hunters and the impact they represent; not the rest of the impact the recreational atv's themselves represent. The improved sightlines provide hunters with an unprecedented advantage, and therefore the potential to overharvest recovering game populations. That in itself, combined with hundreds of miles of vehicular access, is a genuine reason to restrict ATV equipped hunters.

The increased potential for habitat damage is an other seperate issue. Some have probably already argued that if everybody sticks to the current ORV regulations, there won't be a problem in that regard. However, as has been comprehensively discussed already, ORV's are inadequately regulated as it is, and enforcement is wanting.

It doesn't make much sense to ban atv/sxs use while allowing Jeeps and other 4x4 vehicles to travel the same roads and trails unrestricted. Or does it? I've often wondered while hunting on foot because using my atv is restricted, and trucks and cars and jeeps etc are passing me on the roads.

[REMINGTON JIM]

All we can do with atv's now is go where we can and stay off where we can't. Obey the Ministry 100% under the Provincial Hunting Regulations.
Jelly Vis -- MU 3-28 for example is a no no now! for any atv -- check the Provincial Regs ---- this MU 3-28 is being patrolled already by some local hunters -- :neutral: -

So you saying you cannot NOT operate a atv at ALL in 3-28 now ? RJ

[Jelvis]

Sept 1 on til end of season apparently during hunting season no go in any way, using for hunting, it's in the regs already a guy put it on,
It's on HBC already under new regs are out 18 to 20 and says it, no nuttin A tall
In Mu 3-28
Jel -- I read it, I thought it was a great decision by the Ministry again to actually protect the Skull Mt Herd -- it had it's own fire --

[IslandWanderer]

It doesn't make much sense to ban atv/sxs use while allowing Jeeps and other 4x4 vehicles to travel the same roads and trails unrestricted. Or does it? I've often wondered while hunting on foot because using my atv is restricted, and trucks and cars and jeeps etc are passing me on the roads.

Is it because atv riders can’t be trusted to remain on the roads?

[curt]

[no the rationale is not reasonable you just drank the bullshit koolade the NDP are doing exactly what the tree hugging radical Green Party assholes are telling them too because they hold the balance of power and you have bought into the shit sandwich 🤨👎QUOTE=horshur;2017407]You can’t adequately enforce restrictions with that many access points..they would have closers on a hundred or more rds...go have a look on google earth and ask yourself how you could enforce those restrictions..how you could have proper signage..how to stop private access ect ect..it sucks. But the rational is reasonable.[/QUOTE]

[curt]

Is it because atv riders can’t be trusted to remain on the roads?

do you think it’s going to be any different now we are going to have 3500lbs 4x4 ripping up the back country the logic is ass backwards and the sad part is we have ******s calling all the shots and some of you buy in

[Jelvis]

atv can go a lot of places a 80 1000 dollar 3/4 ton truck can't, all over in the lil trails and bumby spots. That's why people buy them.
-- People that say a truck can go any where a fancy quad can go are kidding themselves, looking for a reason to keep their ATV going, where they know now, in the 2018-2020 regs, it's Shut-Down in Mu 3-28, for the entire GOS mule deer season, no atv what so ever for anything hunting, including driving someone in and dropping off is illegal and charges will be laid Pronto. New regs for atv use for hunting cover MU 3 - 28 29 and 30. Check new regs now!
Jel -- the wild wild west ---do your best to honor thee request -- Your big new truck will get scratched up and dented bad, so stick to atv in a legal spot --

[f350ps]

I thought the "beginning of the end" was when the FN's started charging a fee for a permit to pick mushrooms in said area, on CROWN land!! K

[Jelvis]

Mother Nature giving back to Mother Earth to all the Mothers that work thee land Mother Forest and Mother Ponds with Father Sky.
Jel -- Mother Mushroom giving the Mother Status her portion of the reward for cohabitating and enjoying each udders --

[sparky300winmag]

The beginning of the end started along time ago......the shitty thing is everyone BUT natives get banned from ATV use in some areas, banned from hunting certain species, banned from road access for the purpose of hunting in some areas....lets reduce the amount of salmon we can catch to save the whales, but not natives...its so close to the end its not funny...

[ACE]

Mother Nature giving back to Mother Earth to all the Mothers that work thee land Mother Forest and Mother Ponds with Father Sky.
Jel -- Mother Mushroom giving the Mother Status her portion of the reward for co-habitating and enjoying each udders --

Mushrooms + Jelvis =

[horshur]

https://i.imgflip.com/2ddb4s.jpg (https://imgflip.com/i/2ddb4s)via Imgflip Meme Generator (https://imgflip.com/memegenerator)

[Jelvis]

Jelvis plus mushrooms = Campbell's Mushroom Soup shyte dat stuff is gah hoood Cah Reeem of Mushy Rooms -Zooop your taste buds will do a tap dance on yer tung
Jelly - Cream of Mushroom Campbell's is the Top Brand for taste and nourishment - If anyone comes on here now and disses Campbell's your gong to have a problem

[303savage]

The group that is exempt from the ATV ban pushed for it

Hmmm I wonder what group that would be?

[gcreek]

I wonder what those who were active hunters 40 years ago before ATVs would think of this conversation..........

[Keta1969]

I wonder what those who were active hunters 40 years ago before ATVs would think of this conversation..........

Ain't that the truth.

[Jelvis]

-- MU 3-28 will be a mule deer spot again, yayyy, the Ministry get's my vote on this one, the Ministry has worked with Skull and the locals for decades protecting the area from abuse and neglect and devastation from the private sector -- keeping it natural as possible --
-- I wouldn't expect ATV riders to be happy when these places get closed to ATV's for hunting like MU 3-28 has adopted along with 29 and 30.
These things happen and will continue to develop over the next few months with the local Indian Bands joining in already with the Ministry to protect Kamloops and Chu Chua territory which is huge when combined in the most prime real estate in North America.
-- You prolly know already and if not you can google it, The Indian Bands have been given full control over the rebuilding of this entire burnt area involved.
Jel -- Evolution of thee hunting environment and rules and regulations use hunters and the Ministry and Indian Bands to communicate and put hunting first.
--- hunting first, above all must be protected from stopping, and we all as a three braided rope, can conserve the wild life also better together as well --

[HappyJack]

The group that is exempt from the ATV ban pushed for it

Hmmm I wonder what group that would be?


70+ year old white guys with jacked up street legal Jeeps? Just a guess? ;-)

[TravisC]

Give me my fine screw them. My truck is not what I want to beat the crap out of. I bought a sxs that cost 3 times the price of a tracker or more. I wish to care for my truck and also go out with the wife and kid. Yes road hunting in the sxs is what I do with it with my wife and kid. On my own its a tool to get me to an area to hike or to do backpack hunts, no different than a truck, bush plane, sea plane, horses , boats whatever you use. And I wish helicopter too.
If I'm in my sxs that has seatbelts lights, insurance and all that shit like a jeep or a tracker I have just as much right to be on that road as they do. Hell I've even got a roof and doors and a full roll cage. Why the f&*$ am I restricted to helmets and area access when a jeep or tracker of sorts is allowed to be all jacked up with out a roof and a higher center of gravity not have to follow the same rules? Some of those lifted vehicles will go further places than a quad or sxs and destroy a lot of land. I'm sure its the attitude that most are going to start to have until its controlled across the board screw it. I didn't pay all that money for a sxs to have it sit in a garage and never use it. The sole purpose of the purchase was just that for hunting with the family and not mess up a good truck. Can I sue the gov't make them pay out my 8 year loan on a machine that I'm not allowed to use. Why the hell would I want the machine if everywhere is banned to use them.

[Jelvis]

Hey Travis we all hear yah, your frustrated, aggravated and more, you spent thousands paid mega sales taxes and now? Can't use it for hunting?
Jelvis -- trouble is you get caught in MU 3-28 during mule season Sept 1st to Dec 10 hunting, not just a fine, sxs confiscated as well -- think b4 rebelling.

[Hublocker]

There are lots of other places to drive a quad or side by side or whatever other expensive toy you find essential to hunt with.

[TravisC]

At least if its confiscated I wouldn't have to move it in and out of the garage everytime I need to go into it to do something :{ and with it gone I can just think of my payment as just another bs ndp tax grab. If its not there I wouldn't be temped to use it. Then I'd just have to use my truck. smh stupid regulations going to turn honest people into pissed off rebels. I don't hunt 3-28 anyways :) but its just a thing to come for all regions.

[boxhitch]

Lots of complaining but has anyone tried to get the whole story as to why ?
A call to CP in the Kamloops office would probably get some answers

[Jelvis]

It's way beyond the "Why" stage already box, asking why won't change sqwat, it's done for MU 3-28 - 29 and 30 don't matter why
Jel -- you get caught in MU 3-28 with any atv during GOS mule, and you'll feel like a fool --look like a tool -- Calling anybody you'll get a busy signal if your not connected to the team effort by a code, for the road. You wood have to have a special number to connect -

[curt]

I wonder what those who were active hunters 40 years ago before ATVs would think of this conversation..........
What difference does that make reality is the government is taking away our rights slow but sure it isn’t reasonable typically the guys that complain about quads are the guys not fortunate enough to own one the bigger picture here is the steady slow pressure to eliminate us

[curt]

There are lots of other places to drive a quad or side by side or whatever other expensive toy you find essential to hunt with.
Really because by next year there could be less again that’s the point

[Hublocker]

What difference does that make reality is the government is taking away our rights slow but sure it isn’t reasonable typically the guys that complain about quads are the guys not fortunate enough to own one the bigger picture here is the steady slow pressure to eliminate us

I don't argue for or against quads. You want to use one or a Side-by Side, fill your boots.

I'm 65, and to answer an earlier question, I had already been hunting for 10 years 40 years ago. What do I think? I have yet to lay awake at night wishing I had a quad.

"Fortunate enough to own one"??? I could go buy a Side by Side for cash today without going into hock. I just choose not to own one.

But at the same time I do not subscribe to the tin-foil -hat argument that "They're out get us."

[Ltbullken]

I just want to know the rationale so that we understand if the decision makes sense and if the reg change was put out for feedback. If not, then this decision is all arbitrary.

[Pemby_mess]

What difference does that make reality is the government is taking away our rights slow but sure it isn’t reasonable typically the guys that complain about quads are the guys not fortunate enough to own one the bigger picture here is the steady slow pressure to eliminate us

lol- I enjoy going out and still hunting precisely because it doesn't require fuel, paying consumptive taxes, listening to an engine all day etc etc. Has nothing to do with envy. Every time I get out into a stand of old growth, slowly and quietly looking and listening for deer, all I feel is gratitude. That's something I don't feel nearly as intently sitting on a quad. So the guys I see ripping about all day on their machines, and then complaining back in camp about the natives killing all the wildlife, are more often recipients of my pity than any inkling of jealousy. Quite often, if they're not complaining about the natives, it's their boss or the taxes they pay - things made all the more necessary due to misplaced pride in their machines and spending all their disposable income on gas taxes.

Curious, do we still have a right to sit in the mountains without machinery buzzing us every few minutes? What about the right to enjoy unbroken solitude in the wilderness? Sign me up for that gripe.

[Pemby_mess]

I just want to know the rationale so that we understand if the decision makes sense and if the reg change was put out for feedback. If not, then this decision is all arbitrary.

i don't have the curiosity required to investigate the rationale, but box-hitch made a good suggestion for those who do.

I will infer this:

you our have a burnt out area in recovery. The fire induced feed serves as an attractant for ungulates, while simultaneously reducing cover, opening up sightlines not previously available for hunters. The combination of those two factors serve as an attractant for hunters as well; from all over the province. Likely hunters of the impatient time pressed variety that like to ride up and down on roads all day hoping to bump deer/moose out. The improved sightlines make that method all the more efficacious, and present a risk for over harvest of the entire region. A potential solution is to put the whole region under LEH, but that would reduce opportunities for locals unnecessarily - so a ban on quad based road hunting seems to be a good compromise.

[dana]

If anyone has seen the history of the road closures in the 03 Barriere burn, you'll understand why the Region 3 boys did what they did with the 2017 burns. Hunters were constantly ripping down the signs on the closed roads and hunting them and claiming they never saw signs. It was a huge headache to police. Keep on putting up closure signs and hunters keep on ripping them down. I think they decided it is way easier to police if everything is closed. Way easier for charges to stick as well as people will have a hard time claiming ignorance as to where they are and what road they are on. Basically, what you have is hunters themselves ruined it for other hunters by not obeying the rules. Piss and moan all you want, I think these closures are a good thing in these burns.

[kootenaihunter]

I just want to know the rationale so that we understand if the decision makes sense and if the reg change was put out for feedback. If not, then this decision is all arbitrary.

It was one of the items put forth for feedback on regulation changes on the ministry website.

The rationale is based on science and best practices for land and wildlife management.

"The closure aims to support wildfire-recovery management strategies, and is in response to an anticipated increase of unmanaged recreational off-road vehicle use and camping pressures on sensitive ecosystems in the area.

Unauthorized off-road vehicle use can have many negative effects including soil compaction, erosion, increases in invasive plants, garbage accumulation, and pollution from camper trailer holding tanks. This affects grassland health and wildlife habitat, as well as quality and availability of water for wildlife and livestock."


This is good management. This area will become a wildlife haven in the coming years with awesome hunting opportunities.

Or, this is BS, the gov't is out to get us, hunters know best! Let us pound the area with ORVs this Fall and turn the fragile, recovering ecosystem into a deserted wasteland full of invasive knotweed and rutted trails and then complain the next year when there's no animals and that the government is managing to zero. :tongue:

[Mulehahn]

The problem with the idea that ATVs cause too much damage and should be kept out of the area is that as far as I can tell it only applies to hunters.* The title of the regulation is "ATV for Hunting Closed Areas"! If I leave my rifle or bow at home I am free to rip around the area, destroying the new grasses and disturbing the soil as much as I want. Further, the ban doesn't take place until September; when the plants are dormant. Anyone is free to go atving in the area right now during the growing season causing significant damage before the fall rains/snow comes and starts the erosion process. If it truly was simply about protecting the area to allow it to recover they would of put a complete ban on all ATVs in the area. They didn't so that suggests this is indeed about something else directly involving hunters.

*There is a chance my google skills are not good enough. If anyone can provide a link stating all ATVs are banned from the area I will be happily proven wrong. Anything I find refers to the Hunting Closure

[kootenaihunter]

If anyone can provide a link stating all ATVs are banned from the area I will be happily proven wrong. Anything I find refers to the Hunting Closure

The conjecture that gets spread on this site is mind boggling. Not a hunting closure.


The Province is taking action to restore portions of Elephant Hill that were severely affected by wildfires this past summer.
Effective Thursday, May 17, 2018, the area known as the Elephant Hill Wildfire area of the Thompson Rivers Natural Resource District and 100 Mile House Natural Resource District will be closed to motorized vehicles, including automobiles, trucks, motorcycles and all types of off-road recreational vehicles, except on existing roads. The closure will be in effect until Dec. 31, 2018, while restoration activities for the area are being planned and implemented.

https://news.gov.bc.ca/releases/2018FLNR0122-000925

[Ltbullken]

The conjecture that gets spread on this site is mind boggling. Not a hunting closure.


The Province is taking action to restore portions of Elephant Hill that were severely affected by wildfires this past summer.
Effective Thursday, May 17, 2018, the area known as the Elephant Hill Wildfire area of the Thompson Rivers Natural Resource District and 100 Mile House Natural Resource District will be closed to motorized vehicles, including automobiles, trucks, motorcycles and all types of off-road recreational vehicles, except on existing roads. The closure will be in effect until Dec. 31, 2018, while restoration activities for the area are being planned and implemented.

https://news.gov.bc.ca/releases/2018FLNR0122-000925





Read page 43 of the regs. Looks pretty black and white to me...

[bighornbob]

You guys are talking about two different things.

Rule #1 The actual burned area (elephant Hill fire area) is closed to all motor vehicles for this year for restoration activities. So yes you can hunt it just cant drive anything off main roads.

Rule #2 MU's 3-28, 3-29, and 3-30 are closed to ATV use only while hunting. So you can still bomb around with a ATV as long as you dont have a weapon with you. Or you can use a truck and drive anywhere you want while hunting (see rule #1).

Two differnt rules with an overlapping area.

Rule #1 is put in place to protect plants growing back.
Rule #2 is put in place to protect animals from guys on ATV's.


I hope that clear it up.

BHB

[Mulehahn]

The conjecture that gets spread on this site is mind boggling. Not a hunting closure.


The Province is taking action to restore portions of Elephant Hill that were severely affected by wildfires this past summer.
Effective Thursday, May 17, 2018, the area known as the Elephant Hill Wildfire area of the Thompson Rivers Natural Resource District and 100 Mile House Natural Resource District will be closed to motorized vehicles, including automobiles, trucks, motorcycles and all types of off-road recreational vehicles, except on existing roads. The closure will be in effect until Dec. 31, 2018, while restoration activities for the area are being planned and implemented.

https://news.gov.bc.ca/releases/2018FLNR0122-000925




Thanks for the link and map, but it still raises several questions. Why is the ban listed as only ATVs while the FLNRO closure is to all motorized vehicles? Why they extended an extra year for hunters only? Why 3-28 was closed (when so much of it lies out side of the burned area)? If it is because some of it burned and they are taking a safe approach then why wasn't 5-01 included; it had a fair bit of fire damage in the southern half?

For the record, I don't own an ATV and I fully support a ban of all vehicles leaving pre-exisiting roads. But I cannot wrap my head around how full ban on only one class of vehicle; one that already prohibited from leaving the roads through out the vast majority of the area (at least for this 2018) for only 4 months of the year is going to help in recovery? It cannot be about enforcement because if they can enforce "road only travel" through out the summer and the height of tourist season they should have no problem enforcing it in the fall. Now it may be to save animals, but a person can still drive the roads in a truck or car so that argument doesn't really work either. A dead animal is a dead animal, it just makes recovery more difficult for some.

I am honestly trying; but I just don't see how changing the laws and creating new ones that are only in affect during hunting season is not an attacking hunters!?

[DarekG]

Any loss of privilege or rights for a hunter is a loss for all hunters. You guys shouldn't be taking glee in something being shut down just because you don't use it or agree with it for the sake of one upping an internet argument.

To the person comparing a helicopter to an ATV, you are an idiot. You are comparing apples to oranges. This is the exact thinking that will erode hunting and fishing culture in BC/Canada. The great thing about people is that they will whine about anything, so as soon as you show a crack in your armour you're as good as done when it comes to the anti's.



> You use a truck to drive out to your hunting area? I disagree with this because somehow it's less "natural" or something.


> Oh you use an ATV instead of a truck to get to your hunting area because it burns exponentially less gas? You're still using modern technology.


> You're using a horse? That's like slavery for horses. Horses should be free. You should give up all vehicles and forms of transportation other than your feet for 100% of anything relating to hunting. (Including going to the LGS to buy more ammo or tags!)


> Oh you're using a rifle to shoot a poor defenseless creature from a distance? Way to use space age technology. I hope it makes you feel like a big man, why don't you use something that takes skill?


> You're using a crossbow to hunt? That's basically just a gun that shoots arrows. Does killing make you feel good?


> You're using a compound bow to hunt? Geez, what are you too weak and stupid to use a classic implement?


> You're using a recurve bow? What do you like watching animals suffer you psychopath?! Surely there are more humane methods.


> A spear?! Are you crazy? I watched that guy in 'Berta kill a bear with one so this one isn't allowed just on principle.


> What? You're throwing rocks at the animals to kill them? What are you a stupid caveman?


> Strangling deer with your bare hands? Why don't you just go to Safeway and buy some "beef" that came from a factory farm you idiot?



This is how it works, this is how it's always worked, this is how it will happen.
I'm just shocked a relatively new 20-something year old hunter has to come onto a forum of long-time hunters to remind them.


There are about a hundred thousand more things that can be done about wildlife conservation and hunting preservation instead of pretending a insanely small demographic of ATV "abusers" are solely responsible for the destruction of the back country in BC. I'm starting to doubt the main demographic of this forum is even hunters anymore.

(The fact that you guys think full size 4x4's don't do as much, if not more damage is so laughable I'm not even going to address it.)


EDIT: Worth noting also that I don't use my ATV for hunting, though I do own one. ;)

[Jelvis]

MU 3-28 29 and 30 were all closed to all vehicles off main roads period! These MU's need to be studied by the Ministry and Indian Bands for perfect rehabilitation.
-- Chooch and the Loops and the Cilly Cootins have major insight to be out right -- hiking and hunting, walking and looking, seeing big four points
It's written in plain Ingrish.
Jel -- Skull Mt Iz Back -- Fish Trap - Rexford and Goudreux -- still hunting better then Colorado -- :smile: - better muley hunting then Idaho, Wyoming or Nevada --

[Keta1969]

The self righteousness and indignation of some of the quad riders pretty much says it all.Don't tell us cant use our quad,we have a machine, we paid for it, we have a "right" to use it. Take a hike, you can still hunt. For those that say hunters on quads don't do damage I call BS. I've seen it and the only one that would have any cause to build trails where I've seen them is hunters. Just drove some of those areas this is the right decision.

[Hublocker]

With no disrespect meant for people who really do park and hike; I keep seeing people say they only use their quad to get to their fave hunting spot and hike in, but in the 32 years since I moved to the mainland, I've seen two parked quads in the bush. And one of them was in a motor vehicle closed area.

[bighornbob]

MU 3-28 29 and 30 were all closed to all vehicles off main roads period! These MU's need to be studied by the Ministry and Indian Bands for perfect rehabilitation.

Wrong Wrong Wrong Wrong

From the hunting regs, page 43:


ATV for Hunting Closed Areas: The
operation of all ATVs to hunt
wildlife, transport wildlife, trans
-
port equipment and supplies which
are intended for or in support of
hunting, or transport hunters to
and from the location of wildlife
is prohibited in Management
Units 3-28, 3-29 and 3-30 from
September 1 to December 10.

[Pemby_mess]

To the person comparing a helicopter to an ATV, you are an idiot. You are comparing apples to oranges. This is the exact thinking that will erode hunting and fishing culture in BC/Canada. The great thing about people is that they will whine about anything, so as soon as you show a crack in your armour you're as good as done when it comes to the anti's.

No! NO I'M NOT! ...............(wait for it)............You're an idiot!;)

Nice counter argument; what are we in kindergarten? Even if I am in fact an idiot, what does that have to do with the helicopter metaphor? You can go ahead and call the argument idiotic, or try to make the case that some literary device used was idiotic, but then the burden is on you to back up your counter with a premise of your own. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, and momentarily concede that making a comparison between helicopters and quads is indeed "apples to oranges": Back it up......Tell us all why you feel that's the case. Cause I obviously feel it is applicable - You don't; so tell us all why and maybe we'll get somewhere toward seeing things from one an other's perspectives.

Do you make a habit of going around calling strangers "idiot" to their faces? How old are you? Have any teeth left? If you do go around saying things like that in person, I'd have to hope for your sake that your suit of armour is stronger than your understanding of metaphor.

I don't personally think ''ORV rights" (is there such a thing?) have anything to do with hunting and fishing culture. In fact I'm prepared to make the case that confusing the two is exactly what will lead to the erosion of hunting and fishing. By hunters trying to own ORV issues, it diffuses focus away from some pretty darn important counter veiling wildlife conservation issues. Also hunting is a whole lot easier for antagonistic interests to attack if we also have to defend recreational motor vehicle use at the same time. I will always defend hunting and fishing as a sport and a way of life, but I'm not prepared to do the same when it comes to motor vehicle use. Are you therefore telling us, that you're willing to deep six my defence of hunting on your behalf, simply because I won't also defend your unbridled right to ride your quad anywhere you please?


Any loss of privilege or rights for a hunter is a loss for all hunters. You guys shouldn't be taking glee in something being shut down just because you don't use it or agree with it for the sake of one upping an internet argument.

It's not about internet arguments. Messy thought processes have real consequences. Our mutual privilege to flood all the alpine areas with motor vehicles 365 days a year, has an adverse affect on myself both as a hunter and a general outdoors person. The cumulative effects are significant to wildlife and therefore my lifestyle., especially when were discussing a sensitive area like a fresh burn. I understand why hunters that also use quads, want to defend access; but if that one set of interests is adverse to the primary, the conflict must be resolved.

Let's take your line of reasoning out to FN hunting rights: I can expect to see you defend their right to hunt and fish their traditional territories in the future. Is that correct?



This is how it works, this is how it's always worked, this is how it will happen.
I'm just shocked a relatively new 20-something year old hunter has to come onto a forum of long-time hunters to remind them.


There are about a hundred thousand more things that can be done about wildlife conservation and hunting preservation instead of pretending a insanely small demographic of ATV "abusers" are solely responsible for the destruction of the back country in BC. I'm starting to doubt the main demographic of this forum is even hunters anymore.

(The fact that you guys think full size 4x4's don't do as much, if not more damage is so laughable I'm not even going to address it.)


EDIT: Worth noting also that I don't use my ATV for hunting, though I do own one.

The issues regarding ORV land use are actually pretty broad in scope and depth. Trying to trivialize the problem exacerbates a whole slew of others where they relate to wildlife management. The policies being discussed in this thread aren't even targeting the "abusers"; They're exerting a tiny bit of control over a widening demographic of ORV assisted hunters. Even I'm not so bold as to call that demo "abusers". However I'm fully cognizant of their unique impacts in the special case of a large recovering fresh burn.

I'm completely willing to discuss the separate impacts of the "Abuser" demo, and your suggestions as to how we might protect ourselves from that- but it's probably best for an other thread.

[dana]

Bighornbob is very correct. You guys are confusing 2 diferrent rules. The rule in the regs is indeed for hunting purposes. It is a result of hunters behaving badly in areas like the Barriere Burn. Those road restrictions have been in place since the fall of 03. Don't recall a bunch of whinning about how we were losing our hunting rights then. This has nothing to do with losing hunting rights and everything to do with trying to give critters an edge and not get killed by every tom, dick and harry on a quad. It is soley about Conservation, which all hunters should fully support. Without conservation in burns you open your herds up to overharvest. It is very much needed. We have seen our herds depleted by predators over the last few years. If they are going to be able to rebound with these new burns, they are going to need us back off and not pressure them so hard. The new rules are about maintaining and growing our deer and moose numbers so that we might actually have something to hunt in the future.

[338win mag]

Bighornbob is very correct. You guys are confusing 2 diferrent rules. The rule in the regs is indeed for hunting purposes. It is a result of hunters behaving badly in areas like the Barriere Burn. Those road restrictions have been in place since the fall of 03. Don't recall a bunch of whinning about how we were losing our hunting rights then. This has nothing to do with losing hunting rights and everything to do with trying to give critters an edge and not get killed by every tom, dick and harry on a quad. It is soley about Conservation, which all hunters should fully support. Without conservation in burns you open your herds up to overharvest. It is very much needed. We have seen our herds depleted by predators over the last few years. If they are going to be able to rebound with these new burns, they are going to need us back off and not pressure them so hard. The new rules are about maintaining and growing our deer and moose numbers so that we might actually have something to hunt in the future.
Well said ^^^^^^
and there should of been orv bans on a number of other fires I can think of, too bad as the game never had a chance to recover and flourish under the new conditions created.

[JIL_24/7]

Here is the thing I am wrestling with. I use a side by side. I made that choice for two reasons. First, I have a daily driver that I don't want to punish on dirt roads. Second, I have a daily driver that is hard on gas. I have honestly NEVER taken my side by side off of an established road. I simply use it to take the punishment of the dirt road and to save a lot of gas. Why are these bans in place for all ATV/UTV use and not just on all vehicles going off of established roads. I use by side by side to get to the area I will hike into. I shouldn't be kept from doing that in my opinion. It is not a hunting advantage over a Jeep or a Sidekick or a Mini-truck or any other vehicle people take on forest service roads. Why should someone be punished for choosing a vehicle better designed for dirt/rocky roads?

[Jelvis]

Members I don't want to redirect this great thread, which by the way makes questions arise yet brings in some ideas to deal with this actual issue happened already.
Not going to change it now no matter what we do as atv drivers.
----My opinion is the ministry on all sides wants Kamloops protected from grass growers after October 17th pot is legal, and people will be using Kammy --MU 3-28 to reach it's very close to Kamloops, Nor shore is in MU 3-28
Jel -- not just because of hunting, but because now anyone can be outed, so this is a very well thought out thing before the final countdown to now!
---------------- MU 3-28 - 3-29 and 3-30 all made way more secure for the wildlife and fire protection -- C.O's will see any atv now!

[panhead]

I've often wondered what the odds in the LEH would be in the areas that don't allow off road vehicles for hunting if it was allowed.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Us old foxes are trapshy ... especially when the bait goes to chasing us

[steel_ram]

I've often wondered what the odds in the LEH would be in the areas that don't allow off road vehicles for hunting if it was allowed.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Us old foxes are trapshy ... especially when the bait goes to chasing us

Many wouldn't need LEH if hunters were forced to walk in.

[Jelvis]

-- > MU 3-28 is perfectly situated topographically and has the right temperatures and faces the south dead on and hits the south east south west, perfect for mule deer and pot growing.
-- Kamloops is second for the weed industry next to almighty Kelowna, the Feds and Province say Kelowna is weed City for growing for the governments supply.
Kamloops will have a huge weed growing place out by the Airport -- Former Mayor of Kammy and former RCMP boss together already on it wrapped up!
So no need for private growers running all over our mule deer and bighorn sheep creeks and water ways with atv's period, and is being monitored already by local people.
Jel -- this will stop Kamloops from being a grow in the hills type of City, we don't need it as hunters of mule deer and as lovers of the mule deer --

[Beachcomber]

Do you support my right to hunt sheep from a helicopter? Yes or no? If no, than why are you attacking the interests of hunters?

I appreciate you started down this road on the premise that "Acknowledgement and subsequent discussion of the differing perspectives between hunters should be seen as healthy, not harmful." I agree with that view, but not the example you have chosen to illustrate it. Viewed through the lens of "fair chase", helicopters/drones are beyond the pale. ATVs may be objectionable to some, but there is a general consensus that their use is not unsporting. Extrapolating the argument to include a means of transport that is outside of the law (helicopters), and widely regarded as being rightly so, is not a logical extension of hunters vs hunters where debating the application of different legal means is constructive. It is taking an example from a separate set altogether (illegal/unethical) and superimposing it on a legitimate debate. The use of helicopters is illegal as are other methods of hunting, such as baiting in some circumstances. Opposing those who argue in favour of these methods is not an extension of the issue of hunters opposing hunters any more than say, KIA drivers opposing Ferrari drivers travelling at 150 mph in a school zone is a case of drivers opposing drivers.

And if that is not entirely clear I will open another bottle of wine and try again!

[Jelvis]

The Beachcomber rocks and rolls folks hay, the beach ain't out of reach, he combs the beach and the hair but beware, he ain't afraid ah no ghosts --
Jelly Beach

[HappyJack]

Bighornbob is very correct. You guys are confusing 2 diferrent rules. The rule in the regs is indeed for hunting purposes. It is a result of hunters behaving badly in areas like the Barriere Burn. Those road restrictions have been in place since the fall of 03. Don't recall a bunch of whinning about how we were losing our hunting rights then. This has nothing to do with losing hunting rights and everything to do with trying to give critters an edge and not get killed by every tom, dick and harry on a quad. It is soley about Conservation, which all hunters should fully support. Without conservation in burns you open your herds up to overharvest. It is very much needed. We have seen our herds depleted by predators over the last few years. If they are going to be able to rebound with these new burns, they are going to need us back off and not pressure them so hard. The new rules are about maintaining and growing our deer and moose numbers so that we might actually have something to hunt in the future.

Would save more deer if everyone under 55 couldn't hunt in there. Just sayin.

[dana]

Would save more deer if everyone under 55 couldn't hunt in there. Just sayin.

Don't really know what you are alluding to. If you are saying it should be open to Seniors then you are off by 10 years. And I would fully support Seniors 65 and older being exempt from the quad ban. Just hard to police. I can just picture ol' timers being reported by the cool kids with their special BC Fed reporting app on their phone. CO's race up there and chase down an old guy and harass him. Yup, sounds like a good deal. Hahaha. Most CO's would not want to deal with an old guy who is pissed their legal hunt just got interupted. Hahaha

[dana]

Here is the thing I am wrestling with. I use a side by side. I made that choice for two reasons. First, I have a daily driver that I don't want to punish on dirt roads. Second, I have a daily driver that is hard on gas. I have honestly NEVER taken my side by side off of an established road. I simply use it to take the punishment of the dirt road and to save a lot of gas. Why are these bans in place for all ATV/UTV use and not just on all vehicles going off of established roads. I use by side by side to get to the area I will hike into. I shouldn't be kept from doing that in my opinion. It is not a hunting advantage over a Jeep or a Sidekick or a Mini-truck or any other vehicle people take on forest service roads. Why should someone be punished for choosing a vehicle better designed for dirt/rocky roads?

Most people in trucks don't want to beat them, so they too stay on the main roads. Many quad and SxS users are totally good going up deactivated roads no matter how badly they are tank trapped. The Barriere burn had people burning off on anything that looked remotely like a trail regardless of the closed signage. Many signs were pulled down and thrown in the bush. Very hard to police. Much easier to close the whole unit off to ATVs entirely. And keep in mind, these are only a few units. Tons and tons of open legal quad hunting available in Region 3. You want to justify your hunting purchase of the SxS then just hunt all those many units you can legally quad in.

[steel_ram]

Would save more deer if everyone under 55 couldn't hunt in there. Just sayin.

Shoot, I'm there but I can still carry my weight. Lifestyle choices catch up to some. Sucks to be them.

[Pemby_mess]

And if that is not entirely clear I will open another bottle of wine and try again!

Lol, No your point is entirely clear! Perfect pace on the wine consumption!


I appreciate you started down this road on the premise that "Acknowledgement and subsequent discussion of the differing perspectives between hunters should be seen as healthy, not harmful." I agree with that view, but not the example you have chosen to illustrate it. Viewed through the lens of "fair chase", helicopters/drones are beyond the pale. ATVs may be objectionable to some, but there is a general consensus that their use is not unsporting. Extrapolating the argument to include a means of transport that is outside of the law (helicopters), and widely regarded as being rightly so, is not a logical extension of hunters vs hunters where debating the application of different legal means is constructive. It is taking an example from a separate set altogether (illegal/unethical) and superimposing it on a legitimate debate. The use of helicopters is illegal as are other methods of hunting, such as baiting in some circumstances. Opposing those who argue in favour of these methods is not an extension of the issue of hunters opposing hunters any more than say, KIA drivers opposing Ferrari drivers travelling at 150 mph in a school zone is a case of drivers opposing drivers.


Your point is actually pretty close to where I wanted people to go with my helicopter analogy. My argument was in response to the seemingly widespread sentiment that these rules were unfairly targeting hunters vs general ORV use. ORV users are normally in the position of defending their use vis-a-vis off-road trail damage. I was trying to home in on the actual rationale for this particular set of regulations and why they were different from rules ORV users normally rally against.

My mind went over to a helicopter precisely because it eliminated the ordinary habitat degradation angle associated with ORVs. And yes, as you've marvellously delineated, In most situations helicopters and ATVs don't have quite the same ethical implications when it comes to hunting. However; In this case, I believe they actually do. Citing current or precedential law, while perhaps framing a useful reference, isn't adequate. Laws at their best change when they need to change, although typically lag far behind
where their ethical necessity occurs.

You mention baiting as being ethically and legally contentious in some circumstances. A recovering burn is essentially a huge bait station. A natural food plot on the regional scale. So that factors in. Normally I wouldn't consider riding around on a quad glassing tree lines from the road, a strategical advantage over a still-hunt or traditional spot and stalk technique. However when nature has removed all the overhead cover, effectively creating a moonscape through way of a recent fire, all conspiring with a maze of resource roads - both ethics and practicalities come into play in a similar fashion to the chopper allegory. The area in question has the potential to become a massive incubator of ungulates for the region. Allowing 4 months of hunters hammering the zone, criss-crossing at 200km/per man/per day = Why?

What advantage does that paradigm give hunters? Sure some short term gain for the guys that get there in the first few weeks - what about the long term? what about the locals? The only reasonable alternative is putting the area under LEH only. Only someone too attached to their machine could see this regulatory compromise as being negative for general hunter opportunity. I see it the opposite mathematically. If you must hunt from a quad - still no shortage of places to do it.

[Pemby_mess]

I'll boil what I just said down a little further wrt to the chopper thing:

I was trying to make the point that rules banning chopper use for sheep hunting make sense, just as rules banning excessive motorized hunting make sense when it comes to mitigating the effects of a large road penetrated burn. Being supportive of sensible limits on individual hunting accessibility is not "hunters fighting hunters". Notwithstanding, what I might find sensible being different from that which you may.

[Jelvis]

Trying to educate people on why we do this, is going to go nowhere, people like to argue no matter what thee outcomes are, either way, two or three groups of people will start up why? Again. Why? It's going to happen again.
Jel -- all I ask is why? -- Why do people ask why? :-o We gave you lots of mental space and we found an empty place -- Hahaha

[Avalanche123]

Trying to educate people on why we do this, is going to go nowhere, people like to argue no matter what thee outcomes are, either way, two or three groups of people will start up why? Again. Why? It's going to happen again.
Jel -- all I ask is why? -- Why do people ask why? :-o We gave you lots of mental space and we found an empty place -- Hahaha

Hey I finally understood something you wrote... :) And it makes total sense! :)

[boxhitch]

Jel, not everyone is so quick to roll over when told to do something stupid. A new rule that targets a particular sector appears stupid until the rest of the story is understood.
Is the ban just part of a larger scheme?
Were hunters targeted just because of the ease to make changes to the hunting regs compared to the difficulty of making changes to the MVA or FRPA?

[Jelvis]

I still think it's because of the October 17th legalization of weed, Kamloops, is not the type of City, that wants there gorgeous hills, we get to marvel at everyday we look around us, tore up anymore.
-- Some of us like this, some don't. I do.
Kamloops is building a huge pot growing facility by our airport, not the City but two fellas have set it up to start very soon.
-- Mu 3-28 is Kamloops country and now is a lot more secure and natural because of this move.
Jel -- Time will show, yet right now already thee excitement is gaining momentum for Mu 3-28 and Skull and Tsinsunkoo and all of the North Thompson River --

[Redthies]

I’m not a fan of government in any form. That said, I drive my truck and camper to my spot and then walk to hunt. I find it far more enjoyable being a part of nature rather than tearing through it at 40 kmh. I don’t mind orv use to get down an FSR, but nothing is more irritating than taking hours to hike in to a spot and then have some clown spook any and all game when they thrash their way in on an atv. And yes, I have used atvs before. I have one sitting in my shop. But I don’t use it to hunt.

[stinkyduck]

I thought the "beginning of the end" was when the FN's started charging a fee for a permit to pick mushrooms in said area, on CROWN land!! K
This pisses me off to no end, next we will pay to hunt on crown land?

[mastercaster]

This pisses me off to no end, next we will pay to hunt on crown land?

From what I've heard, that's already happening. Some ranchers who have leases for their cattle to graze on crown land are doing it.

[Jelvis]

=-ll---> "Pay up or shut up! " is the way it's going more and more, seems to be the younger warriors and the middle aged from 20 to 60 types, are starting to realize there is strength in unity, something the Scots did, when they traded rum for furs in 1760. Nor Wester's -- pedlars --
Started trading rum to the Indian hunters in 1760 and so it began ---> Scottish Rum for Beaver --
Jel -- we came together - despite the weather - traded leather, tickled with a feather, drank sum Rum, joined the scrum, or else yer dum, we want yum - yum

[silvertipp]

=-ll---> "Pay up or shut up! " is the way it's going more and more, seems to be the younger warriors and the middle aged from 20 to 60 types, are starting to realize there is strength in unity, something the Scots did, when they traded rum for furs in 1760. Nor Wester's -- pedlars --
Started trading rum to the Indian hunters in 1760 and so it began ---> Scottish Rum for Beaver --
Jel -- we came together - despite the weather - traded leather, tickled with a feather, drank sum Rum, joined the scrum, or else yer dum, we want yum - yum
what a crock of shit
the only thing it is about is how to extort some more money without having to work for it

[Jelvis]

silvertipp I dig it, you got guts, saying my stuff is a crock a shit and my band, saying we extort the public and private sector, and we' don't have employment don't work and want money for nothing? That is real different for a peace loving individual?
-- What about Dire Straights? Money for Nuttin and your chicks for free, an" And that's ok to you?
Jel -- if you hunt, anywhere, north of the loops, especially in MU 3-28, we'll be looking for ATV's on Skull after Sept one this season -- (undercover) in dah clover Rover

[silvertipp]

I never implied anything of the sorts

why is it you seem to think it is alright for natives to charge any sort of trespassing fee at will
why is it you feel you are entitled to not pay the same fees as anyone else
let me ask you something
since you are a steward of the land what have you done to earn this position

[Jelvis]

Cuz the Federal gov't gave me a card that says so, ask them why?
Jel -- I had nothing to do with it, they gave me a number -- said I'm an Indian under the act itself, so talk to them
And talk to the Creator cuz I dint ask to be born remember hahahaha -- where did you come from?

[silvertipp]

Exactly my point
so that is what I mean by "extort "
because the government says so
if you keep taking advantage of that and do nothing to help the situation you also become part of the problem and if you teach this to your children well I think you get it
i have read in your posts that you and your reserve are stewards of the land
is this title also given to you by the giver

[Jelvis]

A Status Indian and a Indian band has more power than you know, and now that the government has found out how much, they are bending.
The world country leaders got together two years ago if you look it up on the internet, how Canada is now going back in time with a new leader, Justin and he is a man of great understanding and wisdom.
-- Very popular person world wide trend with the younger generations and some elderly love the guy.
Jel -- the province can do nothing now with out meeting with a band of the region first, simple as that, and the Feds now, The same, so pritty well got by the
Shorts and curly. I'll support you with my vote if it happens to go any where that way for you as a hunter in BC

[silvertipp]

I guess you cannot answer the question

[Jelvis]

I'll answer your question real good if you really want? Come up to Skull MU 3-28 after Sept 1st 2018 this season with your atv and take it off your truck.
Jel -- You'll find out real fast when thee RCMP show up -> with the Game Warden and a (local person) <- how's that silver -- ? The Lone Ranger wants to know Hahaha
-- why do you challenge the Rock my bro so much?

[REMINGTON JIM]

Silvertipp ! Your 101 % correct BUT your not getting any where with JeLLy ! :roll: RJ

[Jelvis]

Gangin up on Jelly whoa the RJ himself and silver whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa? Please fellas let me jist say I gotta a blonde for a friend already ok?
Jel -- Not lookin right now fella's thanks anyways -- I appreciate the spirit, butt Rock, my buddy don't feel comfortable with youu but t no rockk-------

[HappyJack]

This pisses me off to no end, next we will pay to hunt on crown land?

Pretty soon they will head to court and get a ruling that they hold title to the land, won't be crown land anymore, won't be hunting private land without permission. I'd suggest people should start being nice to land owners if they want access?

[Jelvis]

Put up a fence like Donald Trump wants with entry and exit gates with bank machines, cash will like ahhhhh wellll
Jel -- only pay to get in tho so a deal? -- Negotiate or litigate? Just yokin members ok don't flip out!

[HappyJack]

Put up a fence like Donald Trump wants with entry and exit gates with bank machines, cash will like ahhhhh wellll
Jel -- only pay to get in tho so a deal? -- Negotiate or litigate? Just yokin members ok don't flip out!

Toll booths my man, job creation.

[Jelvis]

Have a deal with the Ministry and check all LEH holders as they come in and go out without a doubt. Any ATV trying to enter MU 3-28 will be late, litigate!
- toll booth like the Coke Qwe Hella -- and ah tap for Debit Card or Credit Cards -- Specials on long week ends -- two for one - buy 1 get One Free!
Jello -- check for any dangerous things that could happen to the people entering at their own risk also signing an agreement b4 hand as they slowly drive thru to paradi$e.
---- My Motto -- " If there's a good deal today, there'll be another one tomorrow " Don't panic stay calm something nah hice will come along ---
--------------------We Garr Inn Tea you will see wild life or we will expect some form of compensation ok? --------------- you'd have to have your eyes closed --
-----------------------------------Special Offer for opening day folks Sept 1st this season, Only one 5 dollar bill get's you a photo with the Nor River Rocko himself.
-------------------------------------and one free photo with that five dollar chump change, all for you and The Nor River Rocko the Wanna Be Jocko - side by side

[IslandWanderer]

Have a deal with the Ministry and check all LEH holders as they come in and go out without a doubt. Any ATV trying to enter MU 3-28 will be late, litigate!
- toll booth like the Coke Qwe Hella -- and ah tap for Debit Card or Credit Cards -- Specials on long week ends -- two for one - buy 1 get One Free!
Jello -- check for any dangerous things that could happen to the people entering at their own risk also signing an agreement b4 hand as they slowly drive thru to paradi$e.
---- My Motto -- " If there's a good deal today, there'll be another one tomorrow " Don't panic stay calm something nah hice will come along ---
--------------------We Garr Inn Tea you will see wild life or we will expect some form of compensation ok? --------------- you'd have to have your eyes closed --

What would be a fare cost for a permit? I think $25 per day, $100 for a week might be fair.

[Jelvis]

Have a deal for season ticket holders, the longer the deals for, the better the co$t. Ministry and us set up special LEH for special entry at some gates.
Jel -- have them all sign b4 hand on the web and set things up to save time and money and get a buck or bull or big blue grouse, the size of turkey up here.
--------------------------------------------------------- All fair and equal -- every body pays except those who are not required by law to pull the wallet.

[IslandWanderer]

Have a deal for season ticket holders, the longer the deals for, the better the co$t. Ministry and us set up special LEH for special entry at some gates.
Jel -- have them all sign b4 hand on the web and set things up to save time and money and get a buck or bull or big blue grouse, the size of turkey up here.
--------------------------------------------------------- All fair and equal -- every body pays except those who are not required by law to pull the wallet.

Sounds legit. Maybe there could also be trophy fees?

[Jelvis]

Only trophy fees when the animule makes the BC Record Book Minimum requirements, known as a trophy, hat rack, wall hanger, over the fire place and on the Face!
Jelly -- Trophy $ize will open your nay borez eyes -- you'll be famous like Amos and Andy and everyone's jaw will drop for the Dandy! The co$t won't even bother you!
-------------------------ANY Xtra Tips woody be appreciated, by Roxy, and Rosey and Rocko dah Jocko and Kevin the Seventh Heaven, heevin and jive inn no drivin!
---------------------------------------------Roxy wants to thank the Ministry for helping Skull Mt to be the fountain again -------------------------------------------------

[browningboy]

Honestly unless you went through the area you would say you would be good with it for a few years until the bush provides some cover, the roads stick out like soar thumbs and so does game. I just came back from there and to be honest they are only trying to give the critters a break, not all will agree... but hey it’s a big province if you’re stuck on using a ATV strictly then go to another area... it will come back but people will need patience

[Jelvis]

browningboy, is right on folks in my eyes, read the post and give the boy a toast, go along with it for some years to come and go now, where you can in another spot.
Jel -- the boy folks -- knows Bo - read slow and then you'll know the truth --

[HappyJack]

Honestly unless you went through the area you would say you would be good with it for a few years until the bush provides some cover, the roads stick out like soar thumbs and so does game. I just came back from there and to be honest they are only trying to give the critters a break, not all will agree... but hey it’s a big province if you’re stuck on using a ATV strictly then go to another area... it will come back but people will need patience

If it's that open it would make sense to ban all road hunting....but oh no, just pickin on the orv boys.

[BeerMan]

How do you put a poster on ignore on this site?

[browningboy]

If it's that open it would make sense to ban all road hunting....but oh no, just pickin on the orv boys.

‘I hear ya, it’s pretty open, I think they just want road hunting off all the spurs that were grown in and now open, it’s amazing how you can see all the roads now.. in any case I have quads and a UTV and like to ride but in this case I say there’s lots of other areas to hunt off a ATV, give the area a chance to fall back on its feet.